Poll: Automatic vs Crest Release -- a question about technique, not preference.

[pwynnnorman]

I don't want to sway opinion one way or another, so I'd like to post the poll first without any details (and I've worded the question to keep it from being a leading one, which is why it might sound a bit odd).

[I have posted this on both the Eventing and H-J forums, but I am NOT looking to compare the sports. I had an interesting conversation the other day and discovered a different perspective from my own, which made me extremely curious to encounter other perspectives.]

[luise]

I said may still make contact with the horse's neck, meaning that the rider's hands may be along side of the neck, touching the neck, but still with some light contact on the horse's mouth.

[Elghund2]

I usually feel my hands grazing the side of the neck as I follow his mouth.

[Ajierene]

I put may not make contact with the horse's neck because to me it read that you may plant your hands. While you may graze the horse's neck, ideally, your hands should be independent and not leaning on the neck in any way.

[Arcadien]

Hmmm, I can't answer this one as I'd say both are fine, situation dependent. With a nice straight jump, all going well, there's no reason to take hands far from the neck, so they just slide along it as the horse takes up rein over the jump.

But then their are those "hail mary" type jumps, where you end up behind the motion but can still have a nice automatice release by slipping reins, but maintaining that straight line contact with the mouth by putting your hands whereever they need to be to keep this contact (Lucinda Green has a great exercise for this, she really had us all jumping in crazy positions, but still maintaining a nice automatic release no matter where our hands our. It took some prompting to get some people to abandon the comfortable "home" position, but we all found out our horses were fine with it, as long as we let enough rein slip and had a strong enough lower leg position not to flop on their backs, even though behind the motion).

Other situations I can think of where automatic release off the neck would be the choice: 1)a big turn after the jump, so opening out to the side, but still maintaining straight line contact, 2) a spooky fence, or jumper, where you open both out to the side to "frame" the horse into the jump.

I think the automatic release is more defined by the fact that you in no way need your hands to keep your balance, thus can do whatever you need to do over that particular jump, without disrupting perfect elbow through hand to mouth straight line contact.

Interesting question, thanks for posting it,

Arcadien

[bornfreenowexpensive]

hmmm....making contact with the neck or not is irrelevant for an automatic release. Resting your hands and using the neck for support....well that is a different story.

So not sure how to answer your poll....basically and automatic release is one where the rider mantains a direct contact with the horse with a following hand (no restriction with hands in how the horse uses their head and neck). You can draw a straight line from the horse's mouth, through the riders and hand and elbow and the rider is not using the reins OR neck for support or balance. It is most important for jumpers when you have have to keep the communication for quick response. For eventers, most will use a mix of types of releases depending on the situation....and most of the time without even thinking about it;)

[Janet]

Unless the horse has a REALLY FAT neck, the straight line from the bit to the elbow does not touch the neck, whether on the flat or over the top of a fence.

Therefore an automatic release does not touch the neck.

Now, having the fingers gently brush the neck is not a major fault, but it is no longer a CORRECT automatic release.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Unless the horse has a REALLY FAT neck, the straight line from the bit to the elbow does not touch the neck, whether on the flat or over the top of a fence.

Therefore an automatic release does not touch the neck.

Now, having the fingers gently brush the neck is not a major fault, but it is no longer a CORRECT automatic release.


That may be true...but I guess it isn't how I think about it. I would think that you shouldn't be even thinking about the neck (as in trying not to touch it). It is all about the contact or connection. For example, if turning in the air and giving an auto release...I would expect my outside hand may brush their neck.

But I don't really know....it isn't something I focus on. Just keeping my horse balanced and staying out of their way is enough work for me;)

[lstevenson]

An automatic release simply means that light contact is maintained throughout the jump. It shouldn't matter if the rider is touching the neck as long as they are not using it for balance. Leaning on the neck and taking support from it are very different than merely touching it.

[EventerAJ]

This is not something I've ever thought about when jumping. An auto release just "happens," not something you do very consciously. It is a feel between your fingers and the bit. Obviously, you won't be resting any weight onto the horse's neck; but, that does not mean you can't be *touching* it. I would guess that my arm/wrist usually brushes alongside the neck to a small degree.

From one perspective: ideally, on the flat, we are to carry our hands apart the width of the horse's mouth. The neck is probably a bit wider than the mouth, so why would you want your hands any wider when releasing? (to simply avoid "touching" the neck?) I only open my hand away from the neck in a conscious attempt to correct a drift, or ask for a turn.

[RAyers]

Since I release only using 2 fingers (thumb and forefinger) on the reins, my hands don't touch the neck. However, no trainer of mine, h/j or otherwise, ever said to touch or not touch the neck. They just wanted to see the line between my elbow and the mouth as level as possible.

Reed

[pwynnnorman]

This is not something I've ever thought about when jumping. An auto release just "happens," not something you do very consciously.

Well, I guess I'm old school then. I was taught that the hands should not touch the neck because almost always, but especially with a really good jumper (technically correct jumper, that is), you cannot keep a straight line from elbow to bit (signalling a genuinely following hand) if your hands are touching the neck. The more spectacular the jumper (er, which is what I'm trying to produce :D), the more the mouth is too low over the jump to keep that line straight and also touch or graze the neck with the hands.

And, EventerAJ, I'm afraid I must disagree with you on the autorelease just happening. I rode for a sales barn for six years during my formative years and never forget getting chastized for being "unconscious" about what technique I was using and why. Now, in my "mature" years, I've come to appreciate that as I've found that some horses (and this is how I got to this point) like steady contact, going a whopper lot better (in terms of rideabilty, carefulness and bascule) without the disruption or restriction (depending on how you perform it) of the crest release.

We have Kev starting to reach into the bit now, but he can still get rank on the approach -- especially the more you do o/f (like a course). To deal with that -- and because if he can, he'll go a hunter route first -- I want to see his flatwork translate into his ride between the jumps . So I decided to try having my rider follow his mouth over the jumps, even exaggerating the degree of contact (without seeking flexion) between the jumps. When Kev gets into rank studly mode, he charges and flattens. I'm hoping to get him to be softly reaching down into the bit on the approach--and then lifting his shoulders and topline over the jump in a bascule which is more like an extension of the canter that came before it.

Ach, anyway--hunter mode. I guess I'm old school with that, too, as I like the mental foundation is can put on them when done right. Still, thanks for the responses. The discussion that ensued when we were talking it through with Kev made me wonder if the old tradition has become something of a dying art. Given that the majority of responses (75% here and 64% on the H-J board) felt it was OK to let the hands touch, I'll have to accept that (except not on my horses! :yes:).

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

Funny, before reading your response, I was going to post that I think usage and thinking has changed over the years, Historically, as Janet said, a correct auto release had no touching of the neck - but maintaining a straight line while touching the neck was an acceptable advanced beginner technique. ;) (OKm I think Jane Marshall Dillon called it acceptable " elementary technique."

These days, I only hear people, even the George, refer to the side view of straight line elbow to bit, not the aerial view also... So I think usage has changed... I don't "think" the width of the hands matters to the horses as much as the height of them does, but I think the efficiency of communication through a straight line is greater than through a broken line, whether viewed from above or the side...

[subk]

Old school? Earlier when I read this post I pulled a DeNemethy and a Steinkraus book off the shelf and took a look. A lot of what was being referred to as excellent riding and perfect position had the hands in an auto and extraordinarily close to the neck and almost certainly touching. I'm not sure the "not touching the neck" meme isn't more recent than "old school." More like a fond remembrance of "just how tough we had it in the good ole days" as opposed to how top riders were actually riding back then.

One of those books actually did show how close the hands should be together from an arial view for flat work which indeed was close to the "bit width" apart idea. There is something counter intuitive to moving your hands out as you move them forward and following. Personally, I've always viewed the "straight line" as having been taught as if the straight line was on a single dimension--the one you see from the side of the horse, not the top. That line is also taught on the flat, and if were indeed to be a straight line as viewed from the top we would be taught to ride with our hands quiet a bit wider on the flat.

[Arcadien]

I too went and reviewed pics from some of my old classics - including Gordon Wright's old "calvalry training" book I was so happy to stumble upon at a yard sale - and they aren't always taking hands noticeabley "off" the neck in a classic release, unless needed for turning, etc.

I think (if I may), we're saying, the classic auto release may touch the neck as a matter of circumstance - depending upon the bascule of the horse, upcoming obstacles, and/or position of the rider - without needing any support from said neck, and without disturbing flow of consistent contact to the horses mouth (from straight line drawn through elbow).

I.e., the fingers may of course brush against the neck, without seeking any support form it, as they execute the classic crest release.

Thus the initial question asked, from a classical point of view, is unanswerable.

JMHO,
Arcadien