Two Weeks Into the Soy Free Diet and I Couldn't be More Pleased!

[Rodeio]

I know there are a few others on here who have pulled their horse(s) off soy and thought I would give you my update. Quick background gelding of unknown age, unknown breeding but thought to be Mustang/Paso Fino, he was purchased from a rescue. Bad laminitis episode December 31 2006 with 5 degree rotation in RF and 1-2 degree in LF. Diet overhauled, thought to be IR or Cushingoid. Tested and was bordeline for both. Fed IR diet, put on meds played around with them for the course of a nearly a year and half with the help of a vet, never got him where we wanted to be. Numbers came down but still on and off with his feet being tender, with heat and digital pulses some days others just fine. Something still not right.

I by pure accident ran across the thread on SHB from Daydream Believer about her experience with soy. Both my low NSC pellet, used to get the meds in him, and my mineral were soy based. Went to beet pulp, switched my supplement to a flax based one, did not change my meds and what do you know! That mean, nasty hard crest is getting mushy, his body shape is changing (no more haybellyish look), the fat pads on his shoulders and rump are looking smaller and his attitude is better, not so pushy and bullish as he used to be. I think this was the last piece to our puzzle! I am beyond thrilled. He is still being treated for IR and Cushings I just removed the soy.

[Daydream Believer]

I am so glad you posted an update! I'm so glad it seems to be helping her! :D:D:D

I will update you on my horses. My fat ones are finally losing weight also! Lodi has been so much better. She is now walking sound and I'm ready to try and get her back out on some pasture and take her off the Regumate. My filly who had the behavior change on the soy feed (got absolutely physcotic) is now so friendly I can walk up to her in the pasture and give her a rub and scratch....she could not be more different. :yes:

I hope some other folks will check in if anyone else changed their horse's diet.

[rmh]

I missed some of the previous thread. Did anyone find a soy free RB?

[Daydream Believer]

I missed some of the previous thread. Did anyone find a soy free RB?

Foxden Equine makes LinPro which Melnyi told us can be fed as a ration balancer. Also Vitaroyal makes soy free feed also.

http://www.foxdenequine.com/linpro.htm

http://www.vitaroyal.com/Hi-Pro/HiProHorse.html

Not sure you can call Equipride a ration balancer or not but it is also soy free and comes highly recommended.

http://www.equipride.biz/product.aspx?id=1

There was one other that I can't find right now....If I find it I'll post it.

I will say also that I am probably going to feed Linpro going forward. I like Foxden's products and their service is outstanding.

[pines4equines]

Could you give us the link to the previous COTH thread where you discussed soy?

Thank you!

[Jennwarr84]

Are you cutting out all soy or just soy meal? I think it was mentioned on one of the earlier threads that the meal was bad and not the hulls. My RB contains soy hulls but no meal.

[Daydream Believer]

This was my original thread on soy...it is quite a monster..it got very long and I took a lot of heat over it. To really get it, you will have to read it from start to finish. If anyone wants any clarification, I'll try and help.

I will also state up front categorically that I do NOT know what caused my mare's laminitis. I don't know if it was the feed. We never found an obvious cause..not IR...not grass...not weeds...not hay..no signs of illness...but when I posted that I was at my wits end from a mess of trouble I had been trying to resolve all summer with my horses health, I suspected the soy might be causing at least some of those problems, and finally made the choice to pull them off the RB when she got acute laminits. I also did not intend to nor do I want to turn this into a discussion of individual company's products. Nearly all horse feeds have soy in them now and most of the low starch, low carb and ration balancers have a lot of soy regardless of the brand...so this is not to become a thread bashing any company. Please? OK?

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=164425

[atr]

I've posted about my horse before. For him, I cut out all soy products about 2 years ago. He is obviously intolerant of it, and gets bloated, ulcery and colicky on any at all. We've even had to cut out any treats that might have soy in them.

He was a pretty miserable boy until we worked out what the problem was. Prior to my owning him, he had purely by chance not been fed soy--was getting wet COB, so the problem hadn't shown up. I got him, turned up my nose at his previous feeding program, put him on the "barn pellet," for 6 months, then took him home and started feeding him Strategy like the rest of my horses. He got very bloated and cresty and cranky as hell, so I talked to a nutritionist who thought maybe IR, put him of Safechoice. He crashed badly within about 4 weeks. It took a lot of research to establish what was going on--turned out the "barn pellet" was alfalfa based, with no soy at all...

Over the past two years we have been able to pinpoint any digestive problems he has had back to some kind of soy ingestion--we had a wild time when he got a cupfull of Equine Senior by accident a couple of months ago.

My other two horses do fine on soy-based feeds, so I'm not anti-soy for the general population of horses. But it's another thing to be aware of if you have a horse with a problem.

[3Spots]

Does anyone know the recommended daily dose of Equipride? All the ingredients are in % or ppm, but I can't find how many ounces/grams are used daily to know the absolute amount of vit/min being supplied.

jan

[LMH]

3Spots-it really depends.

Based on my forage test, I would feed 10 oz (2 enclosed cups)....BUT I fee the Equilix-so I feed less to mine.

Without the Lix I would start with 10 oz and see.

If they left some, I would cut back-if the licked the bowl I would add a little more.

Pretty scientific, huh. LOL

I think the company actually suggests more than that but I honestly do not know anyone feeding over 2 cups.

The person who suggested it to me is in Tennessee, has about 30 horses on it and each gets 1/2-1 cup per day.

[J Swan]

DB - Do I really have to read the other thread? I don't wanna. I'm afraid it will make my eyes bleed.

I asked you a question in another thread, but I think it got lost. You stated you were feeding alfalfa pellets. I asked if you were feeding anything with it to ensure adequate nutrition.

May I ask that again? I'm just curious. I'm considering a change - mostly due to distance to pick up the feed as well as the darn cost.

My horses don't have any conditions I'm aware of - though all 3 were treated for Lyme - one was treated for a long time and he's been put through the wringer. Seems ok now - but I'll be pulling blood tomorrow (titer)

Thanks.

[TBlitz]

Do you think I should switch my beefy long yearling off his Progressive RB to a non-soy one? Are the RBs mentioned above formulated for growing horses? I read along with DB's thread and was going to keep it in mind for when he finished growing, but now I'm wondering if I should go ahead and switch now. I love PN (and drive a ways to get it), but I'm thinking maybe I'll just switch my older TB to it since I'm not happy with the feeding program he's currently on.

Also, what's the cheapest way to just feed one horse a mail order feed?

[Daydream Believer]

DB - Do I really have to read the other thread? I don't wanna. I'm afraid it will make my eyes bleed.

I asked you a question in another thread, but I think it got lost. You stated you were feeding alfalfa pellets. I asked if you were feeding anything with it to ensure adequate nutrition.

May I ask that again? I'm just curious. I'm considering a change - mostly due to distance to pick up the feed as well as the darn cost.

My horses don't have any conditions I'm aware of - though all 3 were treated for Lyme - one was treated for a long time and he's been put through the wringer. Seems ok now - but I'll be pulling blood tomorrow (titer)

Sorry...I did miss your question. To answer you... I am feeding good quality timothy, orchard, brome hay, alfalfa pellets, oats to those who need it...generally two years and under and broodmares lactating. Of course I am NOT feeding it to anyone who got fat with the RB I was using. I am adding whole flax seed (8 oz a day/horse) and free choice minerals..which they ARE eating. I think though what I will do when I use up the flax I bought and the minerals, I will switch to Foxden's Linpro as it is specifically formulated for horses on a mainly forage based diet. I would expect that will help with any protein quality issues that I might have as well as take care of the yeast, minerals, and Omega fatty acids. Should save me a bit and simplify things a bit at feeding time.

The whole flax was recommended by a good vet for the process of helping get them back to health following the troubles I had earlier. They look fantastic on it and all the babies look great.

[Daydream Believer]

Do you think I should switch my beefy long yearling off his Progressive RB to a non-soy one? Are the RBs mentioned above formulated for growing horses? I read along with DB's thread and was going to keep it in mind for when he finished growing, but now I'm wondering if I should go ahead and switch now. I love PN (and drive a ways to get it), but I'm thinking maybe I'll just switch my older TB to it since I'm not happy with the feeding program he's currently on.

Also, what's the cheapest way to just feed one horse a mail order feed?

I would not presume to tell you to quit using a RB unless you want to or you are concerned about the ingredients as I am. I can warn you about possible problems with soy but the choice is yours to make. :) I will say that if I had known before what I know now about soy's negatives, I would have never fed it to my horses. I've made the decision to limit/watch my intake also and to watch what I feed to my dogs/cats also.

If he is too fat on the recommended amount of RB and reasonable amounts of hay/pasture, I probably would be concerned and look into other options...especially after what happened with my horses.

I would think that LinGro would probably work very well for your youngster and you can email Melnyi (she is very helpful) and ask her for her opinion on what to feed with LinGro to balance his diet properly. :)

[LMH]

Aren't Lingro and Linpro actually the same product?

[TBlitz]

he's a bit hefty, IMO. He gets 3 lbs Prog Grass RB and pasture each day and looked like this (http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll171/ToniRogers/Yearling/?action=view&current=IMG_1190.jpg) at 16 mos. (I certainly hope you can tell which one he is). I know that halter horse breeders must be jealous of him. I hear he's been beefing up more than he's been getting taller recently, so I've been wondering if maybe it's the feed. I love the way his coat, hair, and hooves look, but I do think he's a bit overweight now. Does he look like a super-easy-keeper to you?

[LMH]

He is WAY too heavy for 16 months. 3lbs of PN is a LOT of pn-why so much?

[TBlitz]

3 lbs is the recommended amount from 12-18 mo. I don't add oats to it though. 2.5 lbs from 18-24 mo. is what he's supposed to be switched to soon.

In his defense, he is a heavier boned guy, but I agree that he's at least a little too heavy. Maybe some Irish Draught people can chime in? He's my first ID baby.

[LMH]

Ah I see...they are both very attractive horses by the way! Aside from the little beer bellies :lol:

[Daydream Believer]

Well, he IS pretty fat! I guess I just don't believe in the magic pill or "perfect" feed solution answer....at least not any longer. I'm not drinking that koolaid any more! If he were mine, I'd probably try him on a different feed to see if it helps. If not, than you know it probably is not the feed but something else. You have to look at everything also...the pasture, the hay, etc... but if you only change one thing...like the feed...and it makes a big difference like Rodeio and myself did...than it is logical to think it is the feed or certain ingredients causing the problem.

I think Julie/okkgo has ID's...hopefully she'll see this and comment.

[TBlitz]

Thanks. My TB has worked very hard for that belly and wears it proudly. Mark on the other hand... well, we're lucky to know that he has ribs, and he gets fed a fraction of the amount. They are happy critters on their 24/7 turnout lifestyle. My mother's homemade recipe for horse cookies just makes life a little better :winkgrin:

[EqTrainer]

he's a bit hefty, IMO. He gets 3 lbs Prog Grass RB and pasture each day and looked like this (http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll171/ToniRogers/Yearling/?action=view&current=IMG_1190.jpg) at 16 mos. (I certainly hope you can tell which one he is). I know that halter horse breeders must be jealous of him. I hear he's been beefing up more than he's been getting taller recently, so I've been wondering if maybe it's the feed. I love the way his coat, hair, and hooves look, but I do think he's a bit overweight now. Does he look like a super-easy-keeper to you?

TBlitz, check your bag. I will in the AM, but I thought the highest recommended amount was 2 lbs.

You definately don't want a fat baby... so if that is the recommended amount, and you want to keep him on it, I'd email the company and ask them what to do.

I have loved it for my babies.. but they are all intended to be big, hot blooded beasties and stay perfect on it.

[TBlitz]

I talked to them a couple months ago concerned about his weight and was given a thumbs up for 3 lbs a day for 12-18 months old. I think he was ballooning mostly on the spring and summer grass, which was really rich this year, but we should be able to tell for sure soon when a freeze comes and he's eating just from the hay bale.

[Boomer]

http://www.equipride.biz/product.aspx?id=1



I had mixed results on Equipride.

My TWH mare ate it without problem from day 1 - but I think she would eat tin cans if I put them in her bin! She's the only one left on the Equipride to finish the pail.

Anglo-Trakehner mare ate it readily, but it made her really gassy! She has terrible seasonal allergies so you can imagine... cough, fart, cough, fart... took her off it and the gas is gone.

Swedish gelding would NOT eat it in any amount over 1/4 cup. Occassionally he'd eat 1/2 cup, but would leave at least a couple handfuls of feed. So I got tired of throwing the food on the manure pile, took him off it.

I looked at LinPro, but the cost is too high.

The horses all look shiny and good weight on pasture and a small amount of alfalfa cubes soaked and oats. No one needs to gain any, that's for sure.

Might look at Moorman's - but somewhat reluctant to keep trying feeds that end up with only the TWH eating it.

Wondering if I'm trying to fix something that "ain't broke" ?

[EqTrainer]

Equipride is not a ration balancer or a complete feed. It is a digestive aid, it says on the bucket that it is designed to be fed to horses who are eating high grain and forage diets to help them digest their food better and have better absorption of nutrients.

If your horse only eats hay, it is unlikely to be of more help to them than a good vitamin/mineral supp would be.

I like the product, don't get me wrong.. but it's not going to "do it" for most horses. And it wasn't designed to.

[LMH]

I am always confused EqT why you classify EP as simply a digestive aide?

It has very competitive amounts of minerals, including Mg.

At 10 oz per day

Mg 4.14 g
Zn 284 mg
Cu 142 mg
Mn 213 mg
Fe 99mg
Se 1.4 mg

Vit A 62,500 IU
Vitamin D 12,500 IU
Vitamin E 218 IU

It falls short on amino acids

Lysine .1.7g
Methionine 2.27 g

It actually has better Zinc and Copper than 1 lb of Seminole and lower iron, and better Selenium.

[EqTrainer]

Becaues that is what makes it special :) It's not a bad thing.

It doesn't have a complete mineral/vitamin profile. It does however have things that other supplements do not have, that are specifically designed to aid in the digestion of grain diets and hay. THAT is what makes it special, IMO. I would certainly add it to any high grain diet, or even to the diet of a horse who was having absorption and/or digestion issues.

There is not enough protein to feed it like a ration balancer.

I like the stuff! Just not all alone!

[LMH]

OH I agree it is not a protein supplement. Not even close.

I guess when I hear 'digestive aide', I think of something like DynaPro or Diamond V yeast-something with no vitamins or minerals.

Given all that, what would you suggest for those soy phobic? A Uckele mineral Supplement plus TriAmino?

Any other products on your list of tricks?;)

[TBlitz]

Given all that, what would you suggest for those soy phobic? A Uckele mineral Supplement plus TriAmino?

I don't think that would have enough protein in it for most horses. The protein supplement from Uckele has soy as the main ingredient.

[LMH]

Tri Amino IS the amino acid supplement and to my knowledge it is not soy based.

It has 10g of lysine, 5g of methionine and 2(or3?) or Threonine.

They make several vitamin/mineral supps as well.

[Rodeio]

Are you cutting out all soy or just soy meal? I think it was mentioned on one of the earlier threads that the meal was bad and not the hulls. My RB contains soy hulls but no meal.

I cut out all soy.

[TBlitz]

Sorry for the confusion, I was taking about the actual protein supplement since I wasn't sure if the tri-amino contained a full daily value of protein, especially for a growing horse.

I noticed that some of their protein supplements contained creatine. I've never heard of creatine being given to horses (except maybe halter horses). I took it back in my wrestling days because everyone else was using it, but had to quit when I started gaining weight :D. That is the extent of my experience with it, though I wouldn't mind trying it out again since I'm working out and don't have to meet any weight expectations.

[LarkspurCO]

I asked you a question in another thread, but I think it got lost. You stated you were feeding alfalfa pellets. I asked if you were feeding anything with it to ensure adequate nutrition.

I fretted over this for awhile and finally settled, for the time being, on Manna Sho-Glow with the alfalfa pellets. As always, they get free-choice salt and minerals, block and loose. Other supplements are customized as needed.

I have been trying to replace some of the commercial feed with oats for my OTTB, but it seems to make him want to run all the more gallop sets in the pasture and throw off his shoes.

By the way, I have lots of cute goat pictures for you, if I can ever find time to upload the rest of them. Here is Bamm-Bamm showing off his horns and his Yoda ears -- they still haven't unfolded!
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Home/BamBam9-15-08.jpg

[LMH]

I was on Dr Kellon's site and soybean meal (not soy hulls) is listed as a food to avoid for Cuhsing's/IR horses as it depresses thyroid function.

It just makes you wonder if the increased use of Ration Balancers is creating some of these metabolic issues?

I had no idea soybean meal was on the don't list on that list-that really makes you think, doesn't it?

[J Swan]

Thanks for the info, folks! I will think on this a bit.


LarkspurCO - thanks for sharing the photo. Cute goats! One of them looks like my Yoda. Unfortunately, we had to put him down on Labor Day. He's the goat that used to hop in the wheelbarrow and wouldn't get out until I took him for a ride. Goats are really wonderful animals.

[Chief2]

DB, what weights are you feeding these things at, and what size/weight horse are you dealing with? Also, what type of oats are you using?

I am interested in trying this, but don't want to read that other thread. My horse is 15.2 hands and 1050 pounds.

[Daydream Believer]

I was on Dr Kellon's site and soybean meal (not soy hulls) is listed as a food to avoid for Cuhsing's/IR horses as it depresses thyroid function.

It just makes you wonder if the increased use of Ration Balancers is creating some of these metabolic issues?

I had no idea soybean meal was on the don't list on that list-that really makes you think, doesn't it?

Oh really? I didn't know that...I wonder why one over the other? It was Dr. Joyce Harman's article on Cushings and IR that I found that suggested a connection with IR/Cushings and soy for the same reasons...thyroid suppression. Nice to hear it from such a renowned person as Dr. Kellon.

Think about it...until recently...the doses of soy and therefore the doses of phytoestrogens, toxins and phytic acid (from the soy) were fairly low. Now we have the RB's and low carb/low starch feeds often based on soy..well...yes, I do think there is a possible connection. My vet and a number of others do believe that we have an epidemic of IR/Cushings compared to several decades ago. What changed? Certainly a number of things can contribute but soy has been used in horse feed for about 30 years...a coincidence? I don't think so.

All soy products contain toxins, phytoestrogens, and phytic acid. All of those compounds can cause problems from what I am reading.

A really neat website from New Zealand..it is full of articles, discussion and lots of studies cited.

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/

This one is Weston A Price Foundation...they have a section devoted to soy also.

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

[Daydream Believer]

DB, what weights are you feeding these things at, and what size/weight horse are you dealing with? Also, what type of oats are you using?

I am interested in trying this, but don't want to read that other thread. My horse is 15.2 hands and 1050 pounds.

I am feeding small horses mainly but do have a couple of WB's on my new program now. The owners of the WB's decided to stop using the RB when I had so many problems..it was their choice...not mine. One was getting very fat also and the other was a bit on the muscle. The switch was an experiment for them and so far it seems to be having a beneficial effect. The fat one looks less bloated..is maintaining his weight now and the pushier one might be a bit calmer. The jury is still out on the second horse.

I feed each of my little horses at least one lb of alfalfa pellets a day. I up that to 2 lbs for my yearlings. I will add oats...about a lb a day per horse if they need it. They get the flax and free choice minerals. So really they are getting very little other than good quality forage.

The WB's are getting about 4 lbs of alfalfa pellets a day, 2 lbs of oats and the flax..as well as free choice minerals and plenty of good quality grass hay. Oddly enough...one of them who was healing from a bone cyst surgery was the soundest he's ever been this week. I have no idea if there is a connection or not but wouldn't that be something?

[TheOtherHorse]

I see that several people are feeding possible IR horses alfalfa pellets. How do you find ones that have a low enough NSC to be safe for IR horses? I'd like to make some changes to my metabolic mare's diet, but I've had a hard time in the past finding alfalfa pellets that even state the NSC level, which scares me...

[LMH]

DB you mention shifting to LinPro-Great product and Melyni is wonderful to speak with.

I have a question (and maybe Melyni will join in)-I think i recall Linpro having MSM in it.

Is there concern about MSM competing with Selenium and Copper? Not a big enough concern?

[meaty ogre]

I had planned on making a seperate post for this but it fits here as well.

I'm also 2 weeks (+) into the Soy Free diet and also pleased.

The subjects:
24 yo paint gelding with chronic skin issues
38 yo mini (recently did dex suppression test and came back fine, suprisingly, but coat is super thick, she has been lethargic of late...thinking thyroid issues)
17 yo TB gelding - always been a fruit loop.

The diet - 100% soy free (including removing all treats and supplements that may have included soy)
My hubby owns a feed mill so I had him special mix me a mash (my oldsters have dental issues and prefer to slurp their feed, so it's easier than using a pellet or textured feed for me) consisting of
-Milk replacer powder (whey protien with minerals and vitamins designed for foals)
-Oats, Barley and a little steam flaked corn
-Alfalfa meal
-molasses free beet pulp
-soymeal free mineral mix (this was a little hard to find, and not the ideal product but I had to get the mineral balance right).

I did have to top dress some fenugreek initially to entice them. If you've ever smelled grain products (not the kind that comes in your feed bag...it's got enough molasses to cover the smell) then you know it takes a little getting used to. But everybody (even the picky TB) got on board pretty quickly. They also get alfalfa hay. They get their grain mash 1x a day because the paint and mini are very easy keeps, and the TB who used to be a hard keeper gets turned out on good pasture.

It seems to have made the most significant difference with Tom, the paint. He has not had hives since early in the first week of the diet, and his chronic cannon keratosis is GONE. I had tried everything on that stuff to no avail (nolvasan scrubs, microtek, gold bond powder - everything). This alone has been worth it to me! He also appears less "bloated" now, if that makes any sense. Initially on the diet I did notice an increase in frequency and volume of urine for all 3 horses, for what that is worth.

Peanut, the mini, got body clipped so I can't comment on whether or not it changed her coat. She is more energetic though (spends less time sleeping under the overhang).

Fred the TB does seem a little more relaxed. He has not been running when the soccer games are going on across the street, though I can't say if it's diet related or he has finally gotten used to them after 2 months! I am on day 3 now of him being turned out with the other two. If you've read any of my posts before you may know that he is an aggressive gelding. He is still very much the boss, but he is not attacking anybody which is why I had to isolate him previously. It's not a drastic difference, but it's more difference than I've seen with anything I've tried before (quiessence, chaste tree berry, kava kava, reserpine, tryptopha, etc.). Also, when I brought the new horses home, he stood and watched them unload but didn't really run or call to them. This was pretty odd for him (he jumps at any chance to run the fencelines and call like an idiot). I didn't really expect much from him because at his age I think a lot of his problems are learned behaviors.

I will try to post before and after pics at a later date. I've been occupied lately with my new additions (Bill and Dan the foster kids from AC4H - you can read about them at www.danandbill.wordpress.com if you care to). They are not on the soy-free diet; it's not right to "experiment" with them in their current states so they are getting all the hay I can stuff in them and TC senior until further evaluation. But all in all, I think I may be on to something with this soy-free diet. I'm actually thinking of going soy-free myself but it is so hard...soy is in absolutely everything.

[Daydream Believer]

I see that several people are feeding possible IR horses alfalfa pellets. How do you find ones that have a low enough NSC to be safe for IR horses? I'd like to make some changes to my metabolic mare's diet, but I've had a hard time in the past finding alfalfa pellets that even state the NSC level, which scares me...

Alfalfa pellets are very low NSC....under 10%. Not sure where you heard it was higher?

[Daydream Believer]

He also appears less "bloated" now, if that makes any sense. Initially on the diet I did notice an increase in frequency and volume of urine for all 3 horses, for what that is worth.

I'm actually thinking of going soy-free myself but it is so hard...soy is in absolutely everything.

So glad to hear it seems to be helping! Wow! :) That's fantastic!

On the bloating..I agree. All my fat horses just looked like balloons filled with water...grotesquely fat with lots of dimpling like cellulite. I did notice a very amazing water intake with several also and then a few weeks after they were on the diet, the water intake slowed a lot and they all look firmer in the muscle.

Soy free is very hard to do. I'm really good at reading labels since I'm gluten intolerant also so I've been looking for soy also. They add it to everything from bread to sauces to even prepared meat dishes. It is in such a different form also than what was traditionally consumed by Asians that I have a hard time believing it's "good" for us.

[Katy Watts]

My vet and a number of others do believe that we have an epidemic of IR/Cushings compared to several decades ago. What changed?

The grass has been subjected to 3 decades of selection for higher nutrient content and the ability to survive stress.

The horse owners: more older women with empty nest syndrome who keep pet horses and don't ride.

The horses- more pony crosses, gaited horses, Icelandics, Fiords who are easier on our old backs and have less challenging problems compared to the TB's we rode in our youth.

Too many sedentary horses- not enough people or time to exercise them.
More older horses, because we take care of them better and they are more susceptible to glucose metabolism issues.

I believe that abuse and neglect of pastures is causing higher sugars. People are misinterpreting 'organic' as 'do nothing'. People have no idea how to nurture the improved grasses they are planting.
My improved grass was running 8-10% NSC this summer, because it is properly fertilized and irrigated.
Katy

[Daydream Believer]

Thanks for the insight Katy. Are you saying that our grass has evolved in 3 decades from what it was due to stress? I'm not sure I'm quite understanding what you are saying I think. Too bad we can't travel back 30 years and test the grass then the way we do now. What about older established pastures? Many here in the Mid Atlantic were not seeded by anyone...they are just fescue, orchard grass, coastal (farther south) and some other grasses like Dallisgrass.

[Windblass]

I have been feeding Soy free since the end of April. My guy was covered in hives and the vet recomended that we pull him off grain. It took a week to notice the difference in his skin, and within a month you would never have guessed he had hives. He was a hard keeper and actually started to gain weight off the grain. He eats haycubes and ricebran with his vitamins, with free choice hay. He does okay on oats, but becomes high as a kite on them.
He cannot have soy or wheat. I have yet to find a complete feed that does not contain either of these. Finding the supplements for him was hard as well.
He does well on this diet and has gained 300lbs since May. He looks like a real horse now, not a neglected one.

[LMH]

Windblass what products did you find that were soy/wheat free?

[Cervalo]

The WB's are getting about 4 lbs of alfalfa pellets a day, 2 lbs of oats and the flax..as well as free choice minerals and plenty of good quality grass hay. Oddly enough...one of them who was healing from a bone cyst surgery was the soundest he's ever been this week. I have no idea if there is a connection or not but wouldn't that be something?

As owner of the pushy 2yr old WB I must say that I think it is making a difference on his behavior. Not a huge difference (he's still a bastard for the trimmer) but maybe his youth still has a lot to do with that too. But on Monday I put him in the ring to see how he was progressing from the bone cyst surgery (he's been limping for over a year - no exageration) and neither I nor my friend/photographer saw any signs of limping. My jaw dropped! In the year and a half since I've owned him I have NEVER seen him move as beautifully as he did that day. And I have the pictures to prove it ;)

[LarkspurCO]

Thanks for the info, folks! I will think on this a bit.


LarkspurCO - thanks for sharing the photo. Cute goats! One of them looks like my Yoda. Unfortunately, we had to put him down on Labor Day. He's the goat that used to hop in the wheelbarrow and wouldn't get out until I took him for a ride. Goats are really wonderful animals.

How sad. How about I send Pebbles and Bamm-Bamm out to you? They love to hop in the wheelbarrow.:D

[Katy Watts]

Thanks for the insight Katy. Are you saying that our grass has evolved in 3 decades from what it was due to stress?

Many here in the Mid Atlantic were not seeded by anyone...

Grass breeders select for high sugar. Grass gets planted in a few places. These more aggressive, invasive varieties take over the whole country. Fescue and brome are not native to the USA, EVEN if you don't plant them. They are invasive. If you do nothing in the south fescue happens. If you do nothing in the north, brome happens. Not sure about far south.... Coastal happens?

[Daydream Believer]

Grass breeders select for high sugar. Grass gets planted in a few places. These more aggressive, invasive varieties take over the whole country. Fescue and brome are not native to the USA, EVEN if you don't plant them. They are invasive. If you do nothing in the south fescue happens. If you do nothing in the north, brome happens. Not sure about far south.... Coastal happens?

Yup...coastal happens!:yes: It is an invasive weed practically! I like it because it does not cause problems for my broodies and it grows fast and take high traffic.

That is very interesting! Thanks Katy!

[LarkspurCO]

The grass has been subjected to 3 decades of selection for higher nutrient content and the ability to survive stress.

You would know. But do we have data broken down in such a way to compare disease incidence among equines eating "modernized" hay versus native grass and, for lack a better term, "old fashioned" diets?

The horse owners: more older women with empty nest syndrome who keep pet horses and don't ride.

Interesting theory. There were plenty of sedentary, fat horses 30 years ago, as I recall. :lol:

The horses- more pony crosses, gaited horses, Icelandics, Fiords who are easier on our old backs and have less challenging problems compared to the TB's we rode in our youth.

I would have to see the actual statistics to understand the significance of how the horse population breaks down by breed and type now compared to "then." Where I grew up there were lots of heavy types, ponies, POAs, QHs, etc. But I'm a hayseed from the Midwest.

Too many sedentary horses- not enough people or time to exercise them. More older horses, because we take care of them better and they are more susceptible to glucose metabolism issues.

I wonder how the numbers would stack up -- then and now -- looking only at young to middle-aged horses?

I believe that abuse and neglect of pastures is causing higher sugars. People are misinterpreting 'organic' as 'do nothing'. People have no idea how to nurture the improved grasses they are planting.

I think that may be more if a factor in the arid west, especially around here where forage is scarce, versus other parts of the country where overgrazing and drought aren't typically a problem.

I would add soy to the list of things that have changed in the past decade.

[EqTrainer]

I agree w/Katy.. and would add stress and show horse lifestyle management to the mix.

I feed *every* IR horse here the Progressive Diet Balancer. They all have recovered their glucose function while on it. Now. None of them have been easy keeper breeds. All TB's and WBs and TB/WBx's. I suspect the big issue is w/the easy keeper breeds and perhaps if nothing else, the amount fed should be adjusted for them.

For the overall population with an IR horse in this breed category, I would hate for them to be afraid to try it, particularly if they are boarding their horses and cannot mix themselves.

[J Swan]

I hate fescue.

But if I had a dairy, I'd like it.

But I don't, so I hate it. Makes it impossible to make the place quail friendly. :mad:

[Hampton Bay]

I use Manna Pro Sho-Glow as well, though not because it is soy free. I feed it to my two youngsters who stay fat on just grass during the summer. I have been very pleased with it; both of mine seem shinier. They eat it if mixed with a handful of feed, though it smells so bad to me I'm not sure why.

[saddles]

www.totalsupplements.com

Best kept secret I've found so far. No additives or fillers. All vitamins, Minerals, Amino Acids and ProBiotics. Awesome product, I feed it with straight oats (no soy there!)

[Daydream Believer]

As owner of the pushy 2yr old WB I must say that I think it is making a difference on his behavior. Not a huge difference (he's still a bastard for the trimmer) but maybe his youth still has a lot to do with that too. But on Monday I put him in the ring to see how he was progressing from the bone cyst surgery (he's been limping for over a year - no exageration) and neither I nor my friend/photographer saw any signs of limping. My jaw dropped! In the year and a half since I've owned him I have NEVER seen him move as beautifully as he did that day. And I have the pictures to prove it ;)

Must be that good trimmer! ;):cool::winkgrin:

[LMH]

Total has 5000 ppm of iron-higher than the other minerals-how would this balance high iron forage? The minerals could never compete.:confused:

Same with Sho Glo-it has over twice as much iron as any other mineral. SO how does it balance commonly low zinc/copper forages?

It doesn't

[Daydream Believer]

www.totalsupplements.com (http://www.totalsupplements.com)

Best kept secret I've found so far. No additives or fillers. All vitamins, Minerals, Amino Acids and ProBiotics. Awesome product, I feed it with straight oats (no soy there!)

How funny but I have a friend in Custer, SD, (I see you are in SD also) who highly recommended the same product! Thanks for posting the link.

[Daydream Believer]

I suspect the big issue is w/the easy keeper breeds and perhaps if nothing else, the amount fed should be adjusted for them.



I only fed a lb of the RB to most of my mature horses which was the lowest amount recommended for horses of their size/age and about 2 lbs to lactating mares and younger stock. What is the point of feeding it at less than the recommended amount? :confused: You might as well feed something else less expensive and add a good supplement and not risk problems IMO. At least that way you don't have to feed a certain amount to give them "enough" of what you are trying to accomplish in the first place by using a RB.

[Daydream Believer]

Total has 5000 ppm of iron-higher than the other minerals-how would this balance high iron forage? The minerals could never compete.:confused:

Same with Sho Glo-it has over twice as much iron as any other mineral. SO how does it balance commonly low zinc/copper forages?

It doesn't

It seems like a lot of folks out west are using it. Maybe it is formulated for their soil/forage more than those of us in the East?

[LMH]

I used to think that because Dynamite has such high iron and is very popular out west.

Then I learned Arizona and other Western states have high iron so that blew that theory.

Maybe balancing minerals is not the ticket...I wonder that some days. LOL.

There is a COTH person that I know, feeds basically NO supplements, no mineral balancing and the horses look AMAZING (YOU know who you are LOL).

It freaks me out.

Actually my neighbor is the same way.

[EqTrainer]

I only fed a lb of the RB to most of my mature horses which was the lowest amount recommended for horses of their size/age and about 2 lbs to lactating mares and younger stock. What is the point of feeding it at less than the recommended amount? :confused: You might as well feed something else less expensive and add a good supplement and not risk problems IMO. At least that way you don't have to feed a certain amount to give them "enough" of what you are trying to accomplish in the first place by using a RB.

I didn't mean that YOU should have to adjust the amount - I meant that the *company* should recommend an adjustment for easy keeping breeds. What is "enough" for one horse or another can have a huge variable.

[LMH]

Hey EqT---

Do you have any QH blood on your farm?

Also, what about your pastures? Are the horses out all the time? 12/12? Less? More?

Are the pastures fertilized? What kind of hay and how much?

I realized when you and I have talked diet, I never asked you these things-and that would make a HUGE difference in amounts of PN (or any RB), wouldn't it?

OK maybe not HUGE but it would matter.

[Katy Watts]

Then I learned Arizona and other Western states have high iron so that blew that theory.


Nearly ALL soil is high in iron, but it's not available to the plant under high pH found in the west. Google 'iron deficiency lawn AZ or NM' We have to put forms of more bioavailable iron on our lawns and crops because the iron in the soil is in oxide form and is not available. The iron in the forage is mostly oxide form and is not available to plants or animals. If you grow hay on a drained peat bog with a pH of 5, maybe more of the iron in your forage test will actually be available to your horse. Otherwise, you can chill. Horses will NOT get iron overloaded from accidentally eating dirt. Think about it. If eating a little dirt is a problem, horses would not have survived this long.

This iron hysteria is really starting to irritate me.

[Daydream Believer]

I didn't mean that YOU should have to adjust the amount - I meant that the *company* should recommend an adjustment for easy keeping breeds. What is "enough" for one horse or another can have a huge variable.

Oh Ok... Maybe, also, they could just make an alternative RB without soy for those of us who are soyphobics? :D Sounds like Melnyi has beaten them to it. She'll get my business!

I will say also that if according to Dr. Kellon and Dr. Harman that soy can be implicated in at least SOME IR/Cushings horses, and assume they are right...why is no one paying attention to them? It just blows my mind that two practitioners as well known and as well respected could just be ignored. There must be **something** that puts certain horses more at risk that others for problems with thyroid and soy...but what is it? Obviously that is the case with people too...something in the genes maybe? The Thrifty gene? I dunno but I am going to take Dr. Kellon's courses now I know that!

[J Swan]

All y'all seem to be more current on diet/nutrition info than I am.

So maybe you can help me out - because I've lost track of how much of what to give - what the "RDA's" are for various vitamins/minerals.

If I wanted to switch to alfalfa pellets will this product
http://www.southernstates.com/docs/brochures/0608_equiminbrochure.pdf
be appropriate? (in the bottom left hand corner is the % and IU amounts.)

I'm looking for something that is available locally - very locally. Not interested in feeding any of the complete feeds.

I was considering alfalfa pellets, Equimin and an ounce or two of Flax seed oil. I'm not anti-oats - I've fed them before.

Thoughts?

(horses are on decent pasture but I've not tested this year's hay yet).

[EqTrainer]

[quote=LMH;3553911]Hey EqT---

Do you have any QH blood on your farm?

I do. Two of them are full blooded QH, no TB blood at all. One of them I have had for 7 years and he is in hard work and lives on BP and minerals/vitamins/MagOx. The other is currently rehabbing and gets the Prog. DB and Envision and Oats. He was a walking worm load when he got here.. the first horse has never had a big worm load. Worth noting IMO.

Also, what about your pastures? Are the horses out all the time? 12/12? Less? More?

The horses who are in work come in for a few hours a day. Otherwise everyone is out 24/7.

Are the pastures fertilized? What kind of hay and how much?

Yes, I lime and fertilize. I rotate pastures, I lime everything once a year but only fertilize two pastures at a time so I do not have to put horses on neon green grass :lol:

I realized when you and I have talked diet, I never asked you these things-and that would make a HUGE difference in amounts of PN (or any RB), wouldn't it?

OK maybe not HUGE but it would matter

I think it does matter, yes. I think there is a possible link between horses who don't get enough forage (ie: easy keepers) and insulin resistance issues. I have watched horses who have never had free choice forage come here and *lose weight*. I think when horses are deprived of forage, it shuts their metabolism down, hence the no drylotting. I think, as you know, that worms are a huge player in IR, if only that the horses immune systems are so shot that their bodies are giving them no resistance. But you know I don't think it's quite that simple ;):lol:

I absolutely 100% believe that there are horses, just like people, who have an issue w/soy. I also 100% there are horses who have issues w/oats, with alfalfa, with wheat byproducts, the list goes on and on. I wish that someone would indeed make a comprehensive DB w/no soy. What I do not believe is that most horses have an issue with soy affecting their thyroid. I just have had too many of them recover thyroid function and insulin function while on it. My fear is that people being people, they will not realize that it is certainly worth trying a low NSC diet balancer with soy in it on their skinny IR *TB*. I hope people are reading carefully!

I actually think the thyroid is affected by the stress on the adrenal system, not the other way around. I think the thyroid is a side effect, not the main player in IR.

Anyway, that's what I think :lol: and FWIW, my ponies don't get any concentrates AT ALL.

[LMH]

This iron hysteria is really starting to irritate me.

I understand your irritation but look at the iron amounts in some of the products-sometimes 2-3 times the zinc amounts.

Maybe that is not a concern out west but in Georgia it is-my forage test shows iron off the charts-even IF it is not very useable there is still enough to create a small steel factory.

Since zinc and copper deficiencies are a concern and iron interferes with zinc and copper why would one want to feed a product with SO much iron.

If I recall,Triple Crown RB has more iron in it alone than the total recommendations for a 1000 lb horse. That doesn't even consider iron from other sources.

Does this mean we should not consider NRC suggestions? Or not consider the results of forage tests?:confused:

How do we decide if the iron is good or bad? Useable or not?

I swear it just seems easier to throw a block out and forget it.

[LMH]

Hmmmmm EqT, you certainly keep me thinking!

When you speak of vites/minerals are you talking about the Uckele? As opposed to PN...

I am starting to follow a little of the pattern of your thinking (I think!LOL)...

Hmmmmm

[Daydream Believer]

[ What I do not believe is that most horses have an issue with soy affecting their thyroid. I just have had too many of them recover thyroid function and insulin function while on it.


I copied this from Dr. Harman's article:

Research on the beneficial and adverse effects of soy are divided, some researchers showing positive and some negative effects of soy on glucose metabolism.

That's interesting isn't it? It makes me really wonder if there are two different types of IR horses and they both respond differently? Certainly the ones most of us, who have had trouble with soy, are dealing with the thrifty, fat ones...not the thin ones. Could there be some imbalance that the soy either corrects or causes? It seems like there is so much that we still don't understand...

[LMH]

OK EqT-more on the easy keepers and forage...this one I need more information because I agree-dieting and deprivation is NOT the long term solution.

BUT what do you do in the meantime?

I mean Polo is off the charts right now with his insulin, he IS overweight...he is older and out of shape so there is only so much exercise I can do with him until he builds up.

Do you work these horses like crazy? Do you gradually transition them BACK to grass once they are stable?

I am constantly walking a tightrope with my horses and weight gain-so I would love to grasp the theory AND practical approach.

Obviously your deworming program is one part...building up the system with PN and others supplementation-but that adds carlories-so how do you realistically balance this?

The answer to this would make my farm such a happy place.

[Equilibrium]

I too had a "penny drop" moment when reading DB's soy thread. I had 3 related mares and fillies that were freaking me out with weight and looks.

As I wasn't worried about putting on weight I gave them the following:

tiny handful of beet pulp
alfalfa chaff
vit and min supp (non soy)
stabalized flax
rosehips (they've always been on them)
chamomile for one ( high in mag)

As the grass has faded I increases the beet pulp slightly, but really it's not much. But it is amazing in the appearance of the horses already. Gone are the bellies and they look different overall. They don't seem as cranky either. I did not switch them off of grass during the day. And before the diet change I most likely would have to have dry lotted or muzzled them.

I am trying to switch all my horses over to straights gradually. I have 40 horses at the moment so just trying to get a feed program together for a bunch of different horses doing different things. This on top of moving into the new farm. I'm finding it much cheaper as well.

Terri

[Equilibrium]

I only fed a lb of the RB to most of my mature horses which was the lowest amount recommended for horses of their size/age and about 2 lbs to lactating mares and younger stock. What is the point of feeding it at less than the recommended amount? :confused: You might as well feed something else less expensive and add a good supplement and not risk problems IMO. At least that way you don't have to feed a certain amount to give them "enough" of what you are trying to accomplish in the first place by using a RB.

I agree with this because if they aren't getting the recommended intake, they aren't getting the vits and mins they need.

When I first started this experiment, if you like, I thought I would still keep the other horses on the balancers because they weren't having problems. But now I'm not so sure. Take my TB foals for example. The have a field that has plenty of grass which will last for a good couple of months. Plus we have very good hay. But to get the recommended vits/mins/amino acids, ect in a RB I need to be feeding 3.5 pds per day which is 7 cups in 2 meals. Doesn't acutally sound a lot unless you are the one standing with the slow eater. I can give him all he needs with a vit supp for growing babies with a bit of beet pulp and alfalfa chaff and spend a lot less time waiting for him to finish. Really, all my groups of field horses have somebody slow to finish, so time is a factor. I can't walk away because somebody won't be getting what they need.

I'm learning a lot from this experiment and am very glad I've done it.

Terri

[EqTrainer]

I copied this from Dr. Harman's article:

Research on the beneficial and adverse effects of soy are divided, some researchers showing positive and some negative effects of soy on glucose metabolism.

That's interesting isn't it? It makes me really wonder if there are two different types of IR horses and they both respond differently? Certainly the ones most of us, who have had trouble with soy, are dealing with the thrifty, fat ones...not the thin ones. Could there be some imbalance that the soy either corrects or causes? It seems like there is so much that we still don't understand...

Absolutely!!!! I have believed for a very long time that fat IR horses and skinny IR horses are not the same "thing". Although I must add, that a fat IR horse can crash and turn into a skinny IR horse virtually overnight, particularly if they have been on a high fat diet.

I hope that as time goes on the differences are defined. I deal mostly w/skinny IR horses. I often find, too, that once the fat pads are gone and the edema is gone, they are skinny anyway.. at least in the muscle dept. which is what brought me to the need for protein. I hate to keep saying "but".. but I am specifically dealing w/sick horses, and it is an entire program, not just what I feed, so...

yes, many good questions. Hopefully someday we will have good answers!

[sid]

EQ - what would you do for an IR horse (or IR incipient by her outward physical characterists - air fern, cresty, etc) who also has EPSM. I feed her as I would an IR horse, but can't seem to get away from the oil as a part of her diet as she becomes muscle sore without it.

[Windblass]

Windblass what products did you find that were soy/wheat free?

I have him on just timmothy alfalfa haycubes with Equi-jewel ricebran. He also gets sunflower oil for more fat for now.
I am in Canada, and have called every feed company around. None offer a complete feed that was guaranteed to not contain wheat or soy. I am not willing to risk a extruded feed that may be okay for him, according to the feed companies. I can't put him through getting itchy again:no:.
There is a company in British Columbia (Pureform) that does not use fillers in their supplements. Also Select the Best has a wheat and soy free vitamin E supplement. Herbs for horses state their products are filler free, yet their vitamin E supplement has wheat as a filler.
He is expensive to feed, I board and have to provide his ricebran at $60 a month, plus the supplements that he can have seem to cost more then others. He is worth it though.

If anyone else knows of something he may be able to have as a complete feed would be appreciated. We have Master feeds, Purina, Brooks, and Buckeye around here.

Thanks

[jilltx]

EQ - what would you do for an IR horse (or IR incipient by her outward physical characterists - air fern, cresty, etc) who also has EPSM. I feed her as I would an IR horse, but can't seem to get away from the oil as a part of her diet as she becomes muscle sore without it.

I too would like to know that, sid. I suspect Luna might benefit from the "soy free". I checked my labels this morning and EVERYTHING had soy meal or soy hulls with the exception of her strongid and her remission (mag supplement).

She's a total airfern, but I can easily subtract the small amount of concentrate that she gets and replace it with beet pulp/alfalfa pellets and add a soy free vitamin/mineral to balance.

I think it's worth a try!

I was searching this moring and it would seem the smartpak multi-vitamins are soy free (I only skimmed, so itf someone sees it there, please let me know!)
http://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClassDescription.aspx?productClassId=4657&cmPreserveSource=true&cmPreserveCategory=true

[LMH]

Very very interesing the FatIR/SkinnyIR distinction.

And the soy connection.

[pintopiaffe]

The SmartPaks are soy free! I checked on them when they came out.

Platinum Performance is available soy free too--no extra charge.

FWIW.

[pintopiaffe]

It seems to have made the most significant difference with Tom, the paint. He has not had hives since early in the first week of the diet, and his chronic cannon keratosis is GONE.

:D :D :D

THIS is very good news. And par for the course in my experience.

[ridenslide]

LMH- can you post a link to Dr. Kellon's site and that list?
I couldn't find it.

[J Swan]

Help? Pretty please? :)

All y'all seem to be more current on diet/nutrition info than I am.

So maybe you can help me out - because I've lost track of how much of what to give - what the "RDA's" are for various vitamins/minerals.

If I wanted to switch to alfalfa pellets will this product
http://www.southernstates.com/docs/brochures/0608_equiminbrochure.pdf
be appropriate? (in the bottom left hand corner is the % and IU amounts.)

I'm looking for something that is available locally - very locally. Not interested in feeding any of the complete feeds.

I was considering alfalfa pellets, Equimin and an ounce or two of Flax seed oil. I'm not anti-oats - I've fed them before.

Thoughts?

(horses are on decent pasture but I've not tested this year's hay yet).

[pintopiaffe]

I really think you have to get your forage analyzed to know the answer to your question JSwan....

I think a lot of us, for years, have been throwing a 'well rounded' vit/min supplement at our ponies in hopes we'll somehow end up filling any holes, and in the worst case we end up with expensive urine.

I find myself not having the expendable income for that at the moment, so spent the $40 to get the hay analyzed, told them I use beet pulp, alfalfa pellets and whole oats to round out the diet... and they give me a FREE generalized recommendation... for $20 I can get individual reccs for each horse based on age, weight, needs etc.

OR--you can contact a nutritionist. I know one helped me enormously even though I am not even able to purchase their product in my area.

I guess someone quite good at math can do the numbers for you. I'm NOT. :lol:

[grayarabs]

I am finding this all very interesting.
Horse (arab) I lost four years ago to IR/Cushings/Laminitis (hard to keep weight on/thin) - was on a senior feed for years - a popular one - obviously containing soy. That feed anyway too high NSC - but did I know anything about this? I thought I was doing the correct thing for my boy - feeding a high quality complete feed for oldsters. Wrong. A few days before he was PTS and vet was out - I asked what the large lump was near his throatlatch (cannot really remember) - and she said (enlarged) thyroid - if I recall correctly.
New horse I got within weeks - a rescue - very thin - soon to realize had heaves.
Started him off with complete feed and hay. Lots of colic. Had allergy testing by blood.
Obviously sensitive to molds and also to soy. Pulled him off soy - and eventually - hay - as mentioned - he is now on alfalfa pellets/cubes - the only things he can tolerate - he can breathe and no more colic (knock wood). It is nuts that soy is in most all horse feeds.
I wonder how many horses intolerant of soy - and owners do not know it. I have a friend that just took in an elderly horse that has always done poorly - and looks like "h".
I am going to suggest she test for soy intolerance. I'll bet soy is part of his problem.
With all the various ingredients in complete feeds/pellets - which are so popular - to me the odds increase that there is one or two things in the mix that don't agree with some horses.
Soy - I suspect - top of the list. I think feeding "straights" the thing to do. My horse is not worked enough to "risk" oats etc - too bad the COB diet is so high NSC.

[Auventera Two]

I know there are a few others on here who have pulled their horse(s) off soy and thought I would give you my update. Quick background gelding of unknown age, unknown breeding but thought to be Mustang/Paso Fino, he was purchased from a rescue. Bad laminitis episode December 31 2006 with 5 degree rotation in RF and 1-2 degree in LF. Diet overhauled, thought to be IR or Cushingoid. Tested and was bordeline for both. Fed IR diet, put on meds played around with them for the course of a nearly a year and half with the help of a vet, never got him where we wanted to be. Numbers came down but still on and off with his feet being tender, with heat and digital pulses some days others just fine. Something still not right.

I by pure accident ran across the thread on SHB from Daydream Believer about her experience with soy. Both my low NSC pellet, used to get the meds in him, and my mineral were soy based. Went to beet pulp, switched my supplement to a flax based one, did not change my meds and what do you know! That mean, nasty hard crest is getting mushy, his body shape is changing (no more haybellyish look), the fat pads on his shoulders and rump are looking smaller and his attitude is better, not so pushy and bullish as he used to be. I think this was the last piece to our puzzle! I am beyond thrilled. He is still being treated for IR and Cushings I just removed the soy.

Just for the record - my foundered horse has good days and bad days and she has no soy, and never has had any soy, in her diet. She eats molasses free beet pulp. You just never know what will trip them off. Every horse is different. MY horse had a bad reaction to Ascend hoof gel and she got sore footed again and I had to discontinue it. But she can go out and graze all day whereas some horses get 3 bites of grass and they can't walk. They each have "something" that won't set right with them.

Interestingly enough, my horse could be out on grass 3 days in a row and have ZERO problem, but after a whole week in the dry lot with the same soaked hay she's eaten for months, I might go out one morning and she is very sore. For what reason?! I have no idea. There are NO WEEDS at all and not one speck of green anything in her dry lot. I swear it changes with the wind.

And sometimes I might put her out in the grass for 10 hours while I'm gone for work, and I come home and she's a little sore. But....just last week she was out there for 3 days straight and she was fine. :confused:

I think sometimes the ground is too dry, or the ground is too moist and that makes them sore. OR, they are too far into their trim cycle. Mine is always fare more comfortable after a trim than she is 3 or 4 weeks after the trim. Remember, there is always mechanical factors at work with laminitic and foundered horses. Don't focus only on the diet diet diet and ignore the mechanical and environmental aspect. I think that affects them as much as anything!

The temperature, how much sun, how deep their shavings are, did another horse stress them out during the day, I think everything affects them. I also think there is more going on in their bodies than we even know the HALF of.

Mine also has a mean nasty hard crest. It softened and almost dissapeared after 1 year on Remission, but then it came back and as of yet hasn't resolved, even though she's still on Remission. She has a vet appt. on the 11th for more blood tests.

And like I said, there is absolutely nothing in her diet that is soy based.

Aint founder fun?! :eek: :o Sheesh.

[SweetieG]

Okay, you anti-soy folks are starting to scare me.
My TB mare had a foal approx. 18 months ago, and I've been struggling to put weight on her ever since. I finally found a product that has been amazing for her. In two weeks I could really tell a difference and now 6 weeks later she looks amazing. I am so happy with her, however, the product's main ingredient is "full fat cooked soybeans". It also has 12 different amino acids with lysine being the main one. The product also has several vitamins including biotin. Overall it is 40% fat/26% protein.
Soooo, I've been really happy with this product, but I'm wondering if there will be some underlying side effects that I will not notice that could be harmful to her. I have noticed no change in mood/behavior/soundness just good looking weight. Do you think it's safe to keep her on it? What are your opinions? Thanks.

[J Swan]

Yeah... that's what I figured. Sigh. Guess I'll have to do what I like to call, "The Right Way".

:lol::lol:

There is a local product that is super - alfalfa based. It's just expensive.

Another heavy sigh...

I really think you have to get your forage analyzed to know the answer to your question JSwan....

I think a lot of us, for years, have been throwing a 'well rounded' vit/min supplement at our ponies in hopes we'll somehow end up filling any holes, and in the worst case we end up with expensive urine.

I find myself not having the expendable income for that at the moment, so spent the $40 to get the hay analyzed, told them I use beet pulp, alfalfa pellets and whole oats to round out the diet... and they give me a FREE generalized recommendation... for $20 I can get individual reccs for each horse based on age, weight, needs etc.

OR--you can contact a nutritionist. I know one helped me enormously even though I am not even able to purchase their product in my area.

I guess someone quite good at math can do the numbers for you. I'm NOT. :lol:

[Daydream Believer]

Okay, you anti-soy folks are starting to scare me.
My TB mare had a foal approx. 18 months ago, and I've been struggling to put weight on her ever since. I finally found a product that has been amazing for her. In two weeks I could really tell a difference and now 6 weeks later she looks amazing. I am so happy with her, however, the product's main ingredient is "full fat cooked soybeans". It also has 12 different amino acids with lysine being the main one. The product also has several vitamins including biotin. Overall it is 40% fat/26% protein.
Soooo, I've been really happy with this product, but I'm wondering if there will be some underlying side effects that I will not notice that could be harmful to her. I have noticed no change in mood/behavior/soundness just good looking weight. Do you think it's safe to keep her on it? What are your opinions? Thanks.

40% fat! Wow! That sounds like a lot.

I personally don't think soy as a main ingredient of feed is safe but you will find a majority of folks on here who will swear by it...so it's a decision you will have to weigh for yourself by reading the studies out there and information on those sites and what happened to some of us. There are no horse studies so there is no way to know if there are long term effects. There are a couple of top vets who believe it does cause problems...at least with some horses...and those who don't ...so again..take your pick on who to believe.

I found the soy based feed I used to put weight on horses very fast and then they continued to gain until they were cresty and showing signs of IR...and all that despite cutting out pasture and limiting forage greatly and feeding the recommended amount of the feed. I've seen behavior changes also with soy feed. I thought hoof quality fell off across the board in my horses also...even with those who did not get fat.

I think if you are happy with your mare and she is doing well, the decision is a lot less clearcut than the decisions most of us had that had horses that were not doing well on the feed.

[SweetieG]

Daydream Believer, thanks for your response. I guess I should have clarified that this product(40%fat) is a supplement...not her feed. She is on Nutrena XTN feed, and I have not yet read its label for soy products. She gets 8 oz./ day of the weight building supplement. Does this sound any better?

[EqTrainer]

No issues w/,my TB's and soy.. but XTN made them psychotic! I'd be more worried about the XTN than anything else.....

[BornToRide]

Just for the record - my foundered horse has good days and bad days and she has no soy, and never has had any soy, in her diet. She eats molasses free beet pulp. You just never know what will trip them off. Every horse is different. MY horse had a bad reaction to Ascend hoof gel and she got sore footed again and I had to discontinue it. But she can go out and graze all day whereas some horses get 3 bites of grass and they can't walk. They each have "something" that won't set right with them.

Interestingly enough, my horse could be out on grass 3 days in a row and have ZERO problem, but after a whole week in the dry lot with the same soaked hay she's eaten for months, I might go out one morning and she is very sore. For what reason?! I have no idea. There are NO WEEDS at all and not one speck of green anything in her dry lot. I swear it changes with the wind.

And sometimes I might put her out in the grass for 10 hours while I'm gone for work, and I come home and she's a little sore. But....just last week she was out there for 3 days straight and she was fine. :confused:

I think sometimes the ground is too dry, or the ground is too moist and that makes them sore. OR, they are too far into their trim cycle. Mine is always fare more comfortable after a trim than she is 3 or 4 weeks after the trim. Remember, there is always mechanical factors at work with laminitic and foundered horses. Don't focus only on the diet diet diet and ignore the mechanical and environmental aspect. I think that affects them as much as anything!

The temperature, how much sun, how deep their shavings are, did another horse stress them out during the day, I think everything affects them. I also think there is more going on in their bodies than we even know the HALF of.

Mine also has a mean nasty hard crest. It softened and almost dissapeared after 1 year on Remission, but then it came back and as of yet hasn't resolved, even though she's still on Remission. She has a vet appt. on the 11th for more blood tests.

And like I said, there is absolutely nothing in her diet that is soy based.

Aint founder fun?! :eek: :o Sheesh. Just curious - has your horse ever been tested for Cushings? She sure sounds like she might have it in which case diet modifications are not enough and Pergolide may need to be added to stabilize her.

[BornToRide]

Thank you so much for sharing this feedback Rodeio. As a hoof care provider who deals with laminitis on a regular basis any info like this can be very helpful.

Having thyroid issues I have always known to stay away from soy, as it interferes with thyroid function. It is also high in phyto estrogens which also affected my hormones and made PMS symptoms worse. In addition a lot of soy comes from GE soy - I would not want to feed this to my animals - ever.That by itself could cause problems that are missed or attributed to something else because we are unaware of a possible direct link.

I also personally know of two chronically laminitic horses that are fed a soy based formula. The feed manufacturer recommends the use of this feed for laminitic horses because it is high in fat. They have been in this state for several years now and never really improved.

I also recently experienced that low level ingestion of some toxic plants (like bracken fern or butter cups) can cause laminitis to varying degrees without ever causing any clinical poisoning symptoms!

[LMH]

Can't the same be said of flax and alfalfa? Thyroid issues?

[EqTrainer]

Flax - yes, definately.

[Katy Watts]

I think some of the points listed here might be germane to this discussion.

Bread is dangerous
More than 98 percent of convicted felons are bread users.

Fully HALF of all children who grow up in bread-consuming households score
below average on standardized tests.

In the 18th century, when virtually all bread was baked in the home, the
average life expectancy was less than 50 years; infant mortality rates were
unacceptably high; many women died in childbirth; and diseases such as
typhoid, yellow fever, and influenza ravaged whole nations

More than 90 percent of violent crimes are committed within 24 hours of
eating bread.

Bread is made from a substance called "dough." It has been proven
that as
little as one pound of dough can be used to suffocate a mouse. The average
North American eats more bread than that in one month!

Primitive tribal societies that have no bread exhibit a low incidence of
cancer, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease, and osteoporosis.

Bread has been proven to be addictive. Subjects deprived of bread and given
only water to eat begged for bread after as little as two days.

Bread is often a "gateway" food item, leading the user to "harder" items
such as butter, jelly, peanut butter, and even cold cuts.

Bread has been proven to absorb water. Since the human body is more than 90 percent water, it follows that eating bread could lead to your body being
taken over by this absorptive food product, turning you into a soggy, gooey
bread-pudding person.

Newborn babies can choke on bread.

Bread is baked at temperatures as high as 240 degrees Celsius! That kind of
heat can kill an adult in less than one minute.

Most bread eaters are utterly unable to distinguish between significant
scientific fact and meaningless statistical babbling.

In light of these frightening statistics, we propose the following bread
restrictions:
No sale of bread to minors

A nationwide "Just Say No To Toast" campaign, complete celebrity TV
spots and bumper stickers.

A 300 percent federal tax on all bread to pay for all the societal ills we
might associate with bread.

No animal or human images, nor any primary colors (which may appeal to
children) may be used to promote bread usage.

The establishment of "Bread-free" zones around schools.

[SweetieG]

EqTrainer,
My BO has been feeding XTN for about 3 years now. I don't recall any of the horses having any significant behavior changes. What do you think it was with your horses? Do you attribute it to any particular ingredient? Just curious.

[SweetieG]

Katy Watts....love the post!!!!

[BornToRide]

Can't the same be said of flax and alfalfa? Thyroid issues?
Yes, I personally do not tolerate flax either - again, it used to increase my PMS symptoms. Never had any personal experience with alfalfa though, but I do know that horses were not meant to eat any of this stuff in large quantity and they certainly would not have acces to cereal grain or soybeans in the wild!

I consistently find that if one feeds as species specific as possible, one tends to generally have healthier critters!

[LMH]

BTR, so how do you accomplish this in a domestic environment? AND create healthy athletes.

[meaty ogre]

:D :D :D

THIS is very good news. And par for the course in my experience.

Yes, I am quite pleased. Unfortunately I hope I haven't had too much of a part in starting the anti-soy stampede. One of my horses had a bad reaction to a rabies vaccine several years back, but that doesn't mean I won't vaccinate against rabies...just won't use the fort dodge version with him. If removing the soy didn't work, I would have removed alfalfa next. I'm glad I got it right on the first try though.

I feel really bad for the people with horses who go laminitic over the slightest thing. I can't imagine how frustrating that would be.

I'm off to rid my house of bread now. Great post Katy Watts! :)

[Equilibrium]

Yes Katy, nice post and understand where you are coming from, but I'm not telling anyone else what to feed their horses just sharing my experience.

Most of my horses do just fine on the soy based products. Having said that, I'm feeding many more than I use to and am looking for ways to trim the feed bill and makes things easier.

I know many of you are annoyed with those of us who have been telling about our experiences, but if the ONLY thing you change is your feed program what else is it? I love peanut butter. But I won't go making fun of someone who is allergic to the stuff and tell them it's all in their head. And quite frankly that is what I have gotten from my feed company and quite a few other people. I don't think I'm doing my horses any harm, quite the opposite in fact.

Soy seems to be fine for most horses and have never come out with a blanket statement otherwise. I don't want a horse living in a dry lot 24/7 if they don't have to. If I have found some other alternative, what's wrong with that?

Terri

[Daydream Believer]

Actually I agree with Katy...bread today is dangerous. :yes: It's full of added SOY! :winkgrin: Sorry...I could not resist! I do challenge you to pick up loaves of bread in the grocery store and look at the ingredients...it is hard to find one without soy added. Now why is that? Can you imagine a person with a soy allergy trying to shop for food today? I can because I'm gluten intolerant...it sucks and they add gluten to damn near everything also as a cheap filler. I'm glad I special order my bread and it's has only millet, flax and other "normal" bread ingredients in it. As a person who lives with a serious food intolerance day after day, I KNOW how much effect something you can't tolerate in your diet can do to your health. It's no joke and can lead to many serious side effects.

Equilibruim actually stated it well and I feel the same way. I am not telling anyone else what to feed but I am quite happy to share my experience and suggest that people use soy in horse feed with caution and awareness of possible downsides. Certainly some do seem to do fine, at least in the short term, on it. It's hard to measure long term problems without serious scientific studies which we lack but I'll agree that in the short term, some horses do fine with soy. I still have a hard time accepting soy as a stapie in horses diets as it is not even remotely anything they would have ever found in a natural setting.

I know my horses are doing a lot better since I removed the soy from their diets. My boarders who stopped using the soy feed voluntarily also feel like their horses look and are acting better. Maybe we are all just imagining it? I doubt it...

[Auventera Two]

40% fat! Wow! That sounds like a lot.

I personally don't think soy as a main ingredient of feed is safe but you will find a majority of folks on here who will swear by it...

We fed whole roasted soybeans as part of our custom grain mix for YEARS and never ever had any problem. Our horses always had way more than enough energy, great coats, never a founder or colic, etc.

BTR - As of a year ago my horse did not have Cushings. She has a vet appt. next to talk about things more and make sure there's nothing I'm missing.

[Daydream Believer]

We fed whole roasted soybeans as part of our custom grain mix for YEARS and never ever had any problem. Our horses always had way more than enough energy, great coats, never a founder or colic, etc.



That's great and I'm glad you were happy with it but can you speak statistically to how those horses did over their entire lives? For example: we know that children fed soy formula as infants are more likely to have thyroid problems, peanut allergies and early puberty. We have real numbers based on people and other animals because someone has been following it and looking for a connection to other problems.

While short term effects are easier to connect to feed problems. my question on long term effects for horses might be: Does a horse that eats soy end up at a higher risk to develop IR at some point in it's life? Hoof pathologies? Behavior problems? Etc... We have no answers to those questions but there are some good vets who believe in an IR connection at the very least. :)

[ridenslide]

I want my ice cream, but....

[Daydream Believer]

Where did I do that? I simply suggested they check out the ingredients thoroughly first for long and short term negative problems. Are you going to add anything intelligent to the discussion or just take pot shots at someone you disagree with?;)

I see you changed your post...I should have quoted you!:lol:

[meaty ogre]

FWIW, I do think there is a difference between feeding whole, roasted soybeans minimally processed after harvest vs. soybean meal which has had beneficial ingredients stripped out for use in other purposes. Unfortunately I don't think there is any research to back me up on that, so that's purely conjecture. But, consider whole wheat vs. bleached, processed wheat flour and how it affects glycemic response and nutritional value.

As Dr. Ralston said in another thread, ANY protein can be an allergen. My horse had a definite allergy. I discussed it with a vet and was given several vials of vetalog and some syringes. Not good enough for me. I removed soy products and the dermatological symptoms are gone. I'm concluding that he was in fact allergic to soy. It's certainly not scientific enough for publication but hey, my intention was only to get rid of the hives and keratosis - mission accomplished.

I'm not advocating that everybody go out there and remove soy from their horses diet, but I do think that it is a good thing that this and other threads have people really scrutinizing labels and thinking about what they put in their horses. For the approximately 7 years I boarded my TB, he was one of the hardest keeping horses at any barn. I brought him home and tinkered with his diet. He was soon down to one "grain" feeding a day, and I am actually going to have to remove that too. Improved pastures, quality hay and a vitamin/mineral balancer are all he needs, according to his weight, coat, hoof quality. This is bad news for my husband the feed dealer. :)

[grayarabpony]

Well, I don't care how dangerous bread is, I'm not getting rid of it. I'll take the risk. DDB I can't imagine life without gluten -- that must be tough!

[ridenslide]

You cannot compare how horses digest food and how other species digest food. They have completely different digestive systems.

And yes, I did say- "I though that you were not going to tell people how to feed", but then I realized that is was not you that posted that, but Equilibrium! So I did not want to make an error and make it seem as ifI was poking at you!;) Sorry for the unintended jab. THAT is why I erased it.


So - it's back for all to see.Nothing hidden.:D

There are SO many allergies, as so many people have pointed out.

You yourself had a problem with your herd of 17, I believe.I think that left 9 without an issue if your initial posts were correct. Your 17 were the only ones on PN. The others were on various other feeds, one being Country Acres, if I remember correctly.
These are feeds the boarders chose.Right?
So if you were looking out for their best interest to avoid laminitis, you might have directed them to a different way to feed earlier, as the NSC of Country Acres is fairly high and it does contain soy.

I am NOT picking on you or disagreeing with you, but please quit making blanket statements.

Blanket statements have a negative effect rather than the effect you are going for.They are annoying and overdone, so no matter what the subject, and it makes the person making them sound a little wacky.( Some of my best friends are whackjobs:D)

You have much more credence if you make a statement & move on.:winkgrin:

You KNOW I do not touch soy after my breast cancer.

I will post pictures of my horses & let you guys judge for yourselves.:yes:

I totally forgot that they used to graze on the soybeans in the field when we were trail riding after our reining lessons over the past 3 years!!! Ridenslide jr reminded me of that!
So they WILL eat them!And do so quite happily!


Dr. Kellon's IR course is very informative, BTW.We are on week 4 right now.

WOW is there a lot of information to digest.:lol:



LMH,
did you find that link about feedstuffs to avoid???:confused:
I would love to have it to send to a friend who has a horse who has Lyme induced laminitis.I looked all last night & could NOT find it.

[BornToRide]

We fed whole roasted soybeans as part of our custom grain mix for YEARS and never ever had any problem. Our horses always had way more than enough energy, great coats, never a founder or colic, etc.

BTR - As of a year ago my horse did not have Cushings. She has a vet appt. next to talk about things more and make sure there's nothing I'm missing. But your horse isn't doing well and not stable. That to me indicates that either she's still getting something she's not supposed to have or something else is missing. Perhaps the previous Cushing test was a false negative.............it can happen. If a horse is not stable on a tight IR diet with the necessary minerals needed for hoof health, gets trimmed correctly and adequate movement there's usually a concrete reason for it. Either the diet is not tight enough, or the horse has Cushings after all, or the horse may be eating some toxic plants that may account for the sensitivities.

[BornToRide]

Well, I don't care how dangerous bread is, I'm not getting rid of it. I'll take the risk. DDB I can't imagine life without gluten -- that must be tough! It is not - one just needs to change eating habits , but that can be hard to overcome and I hate it that most of the gluten free stuff is so expensive :mad:

Since I have gluten intolerance, I have also often wondered if some horses may not be affected in a similar way because the condition has been found in cats and dogs as well. Horses also were not designed to eat cereal grains, so it is possible for sme to be affected too, perhaps not quite as severe as humans because they may have a higyher tolerance level. I would not be suprised to hear one day that they too can get the condition.

I also wanted to add that I have frequently experienced horse owners say they horses are fine, when in fact they were not. They just do not know what to look for or they chose to ignore signs. I know a lady who feeds straight alfalfa and senior feed to her to Arab crosses. The horses appear fine when you look at them, but they are both very cranky horses, very tight in their bodies, very over-reactive and disrespectful. Her gelding just took off and jumped the gate next to her one time, because she could not open it fast enough for him:eek:. She also had at least 3 black eyes when I knew her, from being smacked by her gelding's head . The mare would over-react any time a car drove by that back fired and she's lived in that area all her life. It is easy to assume those are training issues. Perhaps some of it is, but most of it was actually caused by the horses diet - it made them run on a sugar high with the inability to focus. And the owner's favorite sentence was: "I fed this way all my life and never had a problem with that".....yeah, right........she also caused my mini to have 3 laminitis episodes because she kept ignoring my feeding guidelines and then blamed it on his trim....:rolleyes:

[Daydream Believer]

You cannot compare how horses digest food and how other species digest food. They have completely different digestive systems.

That's true but what does digestion have to do with it really? I'm talking about compounds in the soy itself...phytoestrogens (which can and do affect horses and are very potent in soy), toxins or antinutrients in soy (which can really affect horses badly:(), and phytic acid in soy (which is implicated in mineral absorption problems and a growth inhibitor). These compounds affect people also and are the basis of what 99% of the scientific studies find "wrong" with soy. No one is removing these compounds from the soy before it's put into our food nor our animals foods. Isn't it a fair question to ask, what effect that they might have on them?

And yes, I did say- "I though that you were not going to tell people how to feed", but then I realized that is was not you that posted that, but Equilibrium! So I did not want to make an error and make it seem as ifI was poking at you!;) Sorry for the unintended jab. THAT is why I erased it. .

OK. :)

You yourself had a problem with your herd of 17, I believe.I think that left 9 without an issue if your initial posts were correct. Your 17 were the only ones on PN. The others were on various other feeds, one being Country Acres, if I remember correctly.
These are feeds the boarders chose.Right?.

I fed about 26 of my own the RB and two boarders and about 40% had definite IR symptoms within a month of starting on the feed and many of those became IR on very minimal grass and a very reasonable amounts of moderate (12%) NSC hay. Again, I have managed these horses for years on the same farm/pastures on different feed with NO problems until I changed the feed to the RB. I have about 20 boarders total...give or take depending on the time of year and most were not on the RB.

I had immediate changes after making the feed change like weight gain which did not stop even when forage was reduced, strange and extreme behavior changes in a IR appearing foal which stopped when the soy feed was discontinued, as well as other more uncertain (to tie to the feed) problems like laminitis in a non IR mare, poor hoof quality overall in my horses this summer, and odd hormone levels in the foundered mare. Since discontinuing the feed, my herd's health is returning to normal. :)


So if you were looking out for their best interest to avoid laminitis, you might have directed them to a different way to feed earlier, as the NSC of Country Acres is fairly high and it does contain soy.?.

My boarders can choose their own feed...I will buy it if it is within reason. I have discussed it with my clients and I will make recommendations to them but I don't force my choices on them. They can make their own informed decisions.:) I believe the other products do also contain soy at lower levels than the RB I fed and that could make a big difference.

I am NOT picking on you or disagreeing with you, but please quit making blanket statements. .?.

What blanket statements are bothing you? My opinion that soy might not be safe for ALL horses in the long run? My doubt that it is 100% safe in lack of any real scientific data? My bringing in facts and studies that show problems with soy in other species (in the absence of any studies on horses?)


You KNOW I do not touch soy after my breast cancer..?.

Good idea! Too bad the information on soy's negatives were not available to you earlier in life. :( Who was it on the other thread who posted that her thyroid quit working after starting a soy supplement for menopause? LaurieB?

I think people should know that some horses seem to have had trouble with soy as a number of us have posted about our horses....as well as understand both sides of the soy debate and make their own informed decisions. That is all that I was trying to do..was let folks know what happened and WHY I quit feeding it.

[Daydream Believer]

It is not - one just needs to change eating habits , but that can be hard to overcome and I hate it that most of the gluten free stuff is so expensive :mad:

What choice do we have? Eating gluten when you do not tolerate it can lead to awful awful autoimmune problems. I also agree that we may one day find horses have similar problems...but no one will fund studies...:no:

I also wanted to add that I have frequently experienced horse owners say they horses are fine, when in fact they were not. They just do not know what to look for or they chose to ignore signs.

I run into this alot. Someone will walk a horse that is obviously IR up to me to trim with awful feet or even signs of laminitis/founder and then I spend the next half an hour trying to convince them that they have a major problem. Sometimes I manage to convince them to make changes in the horse's management but sometimes I can't convince them to do anything different. It is frustrating.

[BornToRide]

Originally Posted by ridenslide http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3557760#post3557760)
You cannot compare how horses digest food and how other species digest food. They have completely different digestive systems.
They may differ, but the basic biological processes are essentially the same. We have more in common than we are different. If we were so different, then why do we, animals and humans, share so many of the same medications?!!

I spend the next half an hour trying to convince them that they have a major problem.
I don't even go there any more. I tell them that if you are not on board, I cannot help you. I think Pete Ramey also walks away from clients who are not committed - I heard him say something like this in his video series. It is just not worth it. Spent your energy on the ones that really are committed:)

[pintopiaffe]

FWIW, I do think there is a difference between feeding whole, roasted soybeans minimally processed after harvest vs. soybean meal which has had beneficial ingredients stripped out for use in other purposes. Unfortunately I don't think there is any research to back me up on that, so that's purely conjecture. But, consider whole wheat vs. bleached, processed wheat flour and how it affects glycemic response and nutritional value.

This is the kind of logic I go by when there is dearth of science. No, it's not 'proven' but it is LOGIC. Yes, it's extrapolating... but it makes sense. Perhaps some day the science will back us up, perhaps not. I definitely thing Organic vs. some of the many processes done to soy to make it cheaper to produce makes a HUGE difference.


As Dr. Ralston said in another thread, ANY protein can be an allergen. My horse had a definite allergy. I discussed it with a vet and was given several vials of vetalog and some syringes. Not good enough for me. I removed soy products and the dermatological symptoms are gone. I'm concluding that he was in fact allergic to soy. It's certainly not scientific enough for publication but hey, my intention was only to get rid of the hives and keratosis - mission accomplished.

It's funny how things work on internet BB's. This board in particular has a different demographic than many. Someone will bring up an idea, or point, and many will research it for themselves. Some will jump on the bandwagon and report success... then it is considered a 'fad.' I can guarantee that those who tried and had little or no change didn't report it. Those who saw a positive change are usually THRILLED to share the info, in case it helps ONE OTHER HORSE.

I've been posting about soy and alfalfa in almost every "scratches" thread that comes up. For several years. Usually it gets blown off and more homemade concoctions are brought up. Then RDLite shows up and shares how she lost her gelding--and it all started with 'scratches.' The two of us show up fairly predictably. :lol:

This isn't a NEW idea. Just an interesting experiment group of horses who are of similar genetics.

When we find something--anything--that helps OUR horse(s) dramatically for the better, we tend to want to share it. If it helps EVEN ONE MORE horse, it's worth it.

The OP's horse has been helped. That is a GOOD THING. :yes:

[BornToRide]

This link might help to put some arguments at rest :) Feel free to dig into any listed references and research if you need confirmations on data ;)

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/04yourpets.htm

[Daydream Believer]

From the soy on line site in that page you posted...very interesting article! That is a very interesting site.

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/downloads/Varner.pdf

I find this article to be interesting also:

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/03toxins.htm

[LarissaL]

Just putting this out there in case anyone reading along is interested (sorry, doesn't pertain to this most recent part of the conversation!):

Wheat is sometimes used as a soy alternative. Wheat is typically higher in NSC. I saw plenty of random research results on the internet re: the NSC content of wheat middlings. I contacted TDI out of curiosity about NSCs in their wheat based TDI-10 ration balancer - not guaranteed, but 25%-30%.

Probably too high for an IR or similarly managed horse. The TDI rep had some comments about why it can still be used for IR horses, but I'll leave that out as it's not related to this thread.

[LMH]

The list I found was in the data files on Dr Kellon's yahoo group so I can't link it here.

Your friend can join the group and go to the files and see it there.:)

[SweetieG]

I'm thinking IR = Insulin Resistant. Am I right? Thanks.

[J Swan]

I can't jump on the soy is bad bandwagon - but I think I understand what you're trying to say.

Ethnicity plays a role in human medicine. People with a certain makeup are predisposed to certain illnesses, conditions or diseases. Physicians haven't been able to figure all that out, so I'm sure vets are in the same boat. I can well imagine that all the monkeying around we've done with horse, dog and cat breeding has had repercussions we're not fully aware of.

On the other hand -and I just can't stop myself from saying this........No diet on earth is going to keep a horse from developing IR or other conditions if it isn't exercised enough.

Too many of us are killing our horses with kindness. My field hunter is getting fit - and by the end of October he's going to be a very fit animal. Ever year, without fail, a friend will visit and see him and insist I'm starving him to death.

Nope. He's fit. Horses are not supposed to be as wide as they are tall. :cool:

I copied this from Dr. Harman's article:

Research on the beneficial and adverse effects of soy are divided, some researchers showing positive and some negative effects of soy on glucose metabolism.

That's interesting isn't it? It makes me really wonder if there are two different types of IR horses and they both respond differently? Certainly the ones most of us, who have had trouble with soy, are dealing with the thrifty, fat ones...not the thin ones. Could there be some imbalance that the soy either corrects or causes? It seems like there is so much that we still don't understand...

[LMH]

Horses are not supposed to be as wide as they are tall. :cool:

Well, that may be true BUT my mini donkey Felix would differ on that rule in his case.:lol:

[Daydream Believer]

I don't even go there any more. I tell them that if you are not on board, I cannot help you. I think Pete Ramey also walks away from clients who are not committed - I heard him say something like this in his video series. It is just not worth it. Spent your energy on the ones that really are committed:)

Yes, I know Pete does that. I just can't bring myself to do so yet. I like to think that at some point I'll get the message through and at least can give the horse a good trim on that day. I make sure to tell people when the circumstances are out of my control and that they control a great deal of the healing process independent from what I do.

[Daydream Believer]

Ethnicity plays a role in human medicine. People with a certain makeup are predisposed to certain illnesses, conditions or diseases. Physicians haven't been able to figure all that out, so I'm sure vets are in the same boat. I can well imagine that all the monkeying around we've done with horse, dog and cat breeding has had repercussions we're not fully aware of.

I agree and I said from the very start in my original thread that this problem I saw may well be unique to my rare breed. I no longer believe that it is so....but I do think genetics is a consideration as to who can tolerate something better than another or is sensitive to what.

I really don't think all horses that have trouble with soy are truly allergic to it either...but I do think some are more sensitive the compounds in soy than others...just like people.


Nope. He's fit. Horses are not supposed to be as wide as they are tall. :cool:

:lol::lol: That poor filly of mine...the four month old, probably was as wide as she was tall when we finally figured out what was making her that way! She's leaning up a bit and getting a little taller...so thankfully I think we are getting past that stage!

[Auventera Two]

But your horse isn't doing well and not stable. That to me indicates that either she's still getting something she's not supposed to have or something else is missing. Perhaps the previous Cushing test was a false negative.............it can happen. If a horse is not stable on a tight IR diet with the necessary minerals needed for hoof health, gets trimmed correctly and adequate movement there's usually a concrete reason for it. Either the diet is not tight enough, or the horse has Cushings after all, or the horse may be eating some toxic plants that may account for the sensitivities.

Um hello? I said the foundered mare has NO SOY IN HER DIET AT ALL.

So saying - get rid of soy and you'll live forever and the world will be happy and jesus will bless you - is a crap statement.

[jilltx]

I can't jump on the soy is bad bandwagon - but I think I understand what you're trying to say.

Ethnicity plays a role in human medicine. People with a certain makeup are predisposed to certain illnesses, conditions or diseases. Physicians haven't been able to figure all that out, so I'm sure vets are in the same boat. I can well imagine that all the monkeying around we've done with horse, dog and cat breeding has had repercussions we're not fully aware of.

On the other hand -and I just can't stop myself from saying this........No diet on earth is going to keep a horse from developing IR or other conditions if it isn't exercised enough.

Too many of us are killing our horses with kindness. My field hunter is getting fit - and by the end of October he's going to be a very fit animal. Ever year, without fail, a friend will visit and see him and insist I'm starving him to death.

Nope. He's fit. Horses are not supposed to be as wide as they are tall. :cool:

...and with all due respect; "thin" does not equal "fit"

it's an individual case by case basis, JUST like people. ;)

[Auventera Two]

From the soy on line site in that page you posted...very interesting article! That is a very interesting site.

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/downloads/Varner.pdf

I find this article to be interesting also:

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/03toxins.htm

The problem with articles like this is that you can duplicate them, substituting nearly ANY additive, preservative, mineral, etc......

For isntance - I got one some years ago from the company I buy essential oils from. It was about the dangers and detriments of amalgam dental fillings. Women having miscarriages, getting cancer, loss of eyesight, you name it. All attributed to amalgam fillings, and miraculously they all healed 100% when they had amalgam drilled out and refilled with composite.

Then it was sacchrin. Same deal - all these health issues that miraculously are cured by eliminating sacchrin.

Then it was sorbitol and a huge article about how people are dying due to the toothpaste they use because it all has sorbitol.

Then there was one talking about people's acid diets. Can't eat lemons, grapefruit, tomatoes, or any foods containing any of these things, because this acid pH is what causes cancer. Make the body alkaline and all these bad diseases are miraculously cured.

Then it was the frickin DASHBOARDS in our cars!! Dashboards put off estrogen compounds that cause miscarriages, sterility in men, scoriasis, and lupus like symptoms. But if we all took our cars someplace and had the dashboards taken out and replaced with wood and leather we'd be fine! :eek: I AM SERIOUS. I really got this article in my mail from this essential oil company.

Then there was the article about the people in Hunzaland that live to be 110 years old because they eat only appricots, nuts, and drink melted glacier water. If we ate like them, we'd live forever too.

There was a Discovery chanel show about people somewhere in Italy that live to be 100 with 1/10th the level of disease that we have in the U.S. even though their diets are full of fat and calories, and the people are overweight. Their secret? They are a MUSICAL society and play music in the streets, everyone plays an instrument, etc. The soothing melodies quiet the soul and calm the body so it can heal itself.

Then there's the theory of positioning your bed in your house to align with magnetic north so all the magnetically charged ions in your body can get in alignment which promotes healing and longevity. But if your bed is NOT aligned with magnetic north, you can get a whole litany of diseases...

The truth is - ALL artificial things can harm us - and DO. We have to eart smart, exercise, take a good vitamin/mineral supplement, and be responsible. But sheesh already, every day you turn on the TV or the computer and it's one more alarmist article about the world going to hell in a handbasket because of X, Y, or Z.

It just gets OLD after a while.

[Daydream Believer]

Vickie...you are right that a lot of stuff does get taken past absurd...however...I think soy causing health problems in people/animals has a whole lot more credibility than misalignment of someone's bed to the magnetic poles or whatever...I can link you to page after page of genuine scientific studies showing adverse effects of soy...not just an article or someone like me talking anecdotally about what happened to their horses.

Here is another site...this one a Not for Profit that is not affiliated with any commercial food manufacturers or anything.

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

Page of studies...

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/dangersisoflavones.html

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_studies.html

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/%7Edjw/pltx.cgi?QUERY=soy


That same site has fascinating articles on all sorts of topics also....it's a fun one to explore.

I guess if people don't want to hear it or read people discussing something like soy in horses diets, they can just ignore it too! :-)

[Daydream Believer]

You know what's hilarious? Despite limiting Libbey's diet through the summer and keeping her on strict rations, I could not get a SINGLE stinking pound off her. I kept thinking, geeze, if I cut her down anymore I'll starve her to death, but she never lost a pound.

Finally one night I went out and saw the Arab grabbing a bite of hay, then hanging over Libbey's wall to eat it. Libbey just stood there and politely (or not so politely?) took the hay out of Sweets' mouth! :eek: Sweets would be like - oh, ok - then get another mouthfull, hang over the wall to eat it, and Libbey would again take it from her. This went on until Sweets had "fed her" a whole flake of hay! :lol:



That is hilarious! :lol::lol: And we call them "dumb" animals!

[LarkspurCO]

Vickie...you are right that a lot of stuff does get taken past absurd...however...I think soy causing health problems in people/animals has a whole lot more credibility than misalignment of someone's bed to the magnetic poles or whatever...

Yes indeed. I can't understand the backlash here because people are sharing information.

Skeptics can dismiss this as a non-issue and trivialize the evidence and make fun of the discussion using tortured analogies, but that won't make it go away.

Whether soy was a factor in my three-year-old's recent founder remains to be seen. She will need testing for IR and hypothyroidism (her thyroid is enlarged) but I have removed the soy-based ration balancer from her diet.

[BornToRide]

Yes, I know Pete does that. I just can't bring myself to do so yet. I like to think that at some point I'll get the message through and at least can give the horse a good trim on that day. I make sure to tell people when the circumstances are out of my control and that they control a great deal of the healing process independent from what I do. I know it's hard - I wanna help them all as well.......still hoping for world peace too :)

Um hello? I said the foundered mare has NO SOY IN HER DIET AT ALL.

So saying - get rid of soy and you'll live forever and the world will be happy and jesus will bless you - is a crap statement.Uhm, I was just making a general statement based on what you shared. It wasn't freferring to soy, only that somewhere there still seems to be a piece missing that will lead her hopefully to health. I know horses fcan ounder on other high carb feed stuffs too. But if you have a horse were everything is as tighly controlled as it should be, and the horse is still NQR, perhaps there's still something missing or contributing to the problem. Best wishes to you and your horse.

Ethnicity plays a role in human medicine. People with a certain makeup are predisposed to certain illnesses, conditions or diseases. Physicians haven't been able to figure all that out, so I'm sure vets are in the same boat. I can well imagine that all the monkeying around we've done with horse, dog and cat breeding has had repercussions we're not fully aware of.
Genetics most certainly play a role, but even more important are epigenomes. They turn the genes on and off and can be influenced by their evironment. How would one explain that one identical twin contracts a serious disease while the other does not? They both have the same genes, yet they health can be affected quite differently. What's different? Usually it is The environment.

Despite the genetic variations among dogs, and some tend to be more prone to skin issues for example, most of those dogs experience the elimination of all symptoms once their diet is changed to what they should be eating - MEAT. Canines are supposed to eat meat and not much else. Most commercial dog foods are too high in carbs, not to mention other crap.

Dogs are genetically still increadibly close to wolves, so close that when mated with wolves, they still produce non-sterile off-spring. Wolves in the wild eat primarily meat. They even shake the content out of the digestive tract before eating it. Cats don't even touch it btw, they just leave it behind. The only other thing wolves have been observed eating were some berries and grass. That's it.

These experiences simply show me how much a non-speciec specific diet can screw up health. I now strongly believe that every chronic health issue should be explored from the basics up. Make sure the individual is eating an appropriate, species specific diet, before throwing a ton of drugs and "special" diets (that are often still inappropriate unless a dog is truly allergic to some meats) at them.

[J Swan]

...and with all due respect; "thin" does not equal "fit"

it's an individual case by case basis, JUST like people. ;)

True - my bad! I should know better.

(in his case though - he really is fit. She has a horse of similar breeding that is..... Rubenesque. So when compared - yeah - he looks skinny)


LMH - we were hacking in the other day and suffered a horrible sneak attack by a.. I think... tubby pony and mini donk. They were in a field with tall weeds. We didn't know they were there until they ran up to the fence.
We mostly just saw ears. Then our horses decided They Were Done For The Day and departed the scene. Terrifying!:lol:

[LMH]

The Attack of the Sausage Donks.

[Daydream Believer]

I had a TB once that thought a braying donkey running towards him in the neighboring pasture was the devil himself. This TB bolted with me and all I had to stop him was a rubber snaffle. It wasn't pretty!

I wanted to add too that Mr. DDB and I now have a running joke that anytime something is screwed up or not acting right or has a problem....we look at each other and say "it must be the SOY!"...and then we laugh. I think he started it as a destresser for me and it's only meant as a joke...he took this whole thing seriously and does not believe I'm looney...he was the one who tried to help me several times handle/control my "Hellspawn" filly who went nuts on this feed so he was very cognizant of the changes in our horses over the summer. The filly is so different now a month later that it defies belief...

[jilltx]

True - my bad! I should know better.

(in his case though - he really is fit. She has a horse of similar breeding that is..... Rubenesque. So when compared - yeah - he looks skinny)


LMH - we were hacking in the other day and suffered a horrible sneak attack by a.. I think... tubby pony and mini donk. They were in a field with tall weeds. We didn't know they were there until they ran up to the fence.
We mostly just saw ears. Then our horses decided They Were Done For The Day and departed the scene. Terrifying!:lol:

LMH...Sausage Donks...LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You KNOW how they got that way, don't you??? :eek:

[Equilibrium]

Um hello? I said the foundered mare has NO SOY IN HER DIET AT ALL.

So saying - get rid of soy and you'll live forever and the world will be happy and jesus will bless you - is a crap statement.

Yes, you are probably right. But who is saying all horses that founder, founder because of soy?

And as far as horses being in exercise, yes, they need to be. But having said that my 3 are as follows: a 9yo broodmare, 4yo TB (she's in work), and a 2yo warmblood/TB cross. Mom and her 2 daughters. Mom goes on the walker in the fall months 3 times a week. 4yo is in work about 5 times a week and 2yo is not in work. She was broken this summer lightly. But I don't think riding a 2yo everyday is a good thing. She too, avails of the walker if necessary.

Out of the 39 current horses on our place, one is an ISH and one is a Warmblood/TB cross. Everything else is a TB. So when pouring through my feed program, I have decided to keep the balancer for all the young horses and mares who don't have problems. And this is because I haven't seen any problems with the rest of the horses. They look well, no behavorial issues, no funny fat lumps, ect. But I think it's interesting I have 3 related horses with the issues. So they will stay with their special diet. I'm not trying to jump on the bandwagon. I saw an issue, tried something else, it worked and am trying to share.

And to look at the picture totally here's the low down. I went off the balancers with these 3 horses. Calculated grass and hay as a major part of the diet. Balanced with vits and mins which were soy free, beet pulp and alfalfa chaff to mix with vits and mins. They changed. So the balancer was too much for them. Is it too much for all my horses, don't think so.

Terri

[enjoytheride]

I also wanted to add that I have frequently experienced horse owners say they horses are fine, when in fact they were not. They just do not know what to look for or they chose to ignore signs. I know a lady who feeds straight alfalfa and senior feed to her to Arab crosses. The horses appear fine when you look at them, but they are both very cranky horses, very tight in their bodies, very over-reactive and disrespectful. Her gelding just took off and jumped the gate next to her one time, because she could not open it fast enough for him:eek:. She also had at least 3 black eyes when I knew her, from being smacked by her gelding's head . The mare would over-react any time a car drove by that back fired and she's lived in that area all her life. It is easy to assume those are training issues. Perhaps some of it is, but most of it was actually caused by the horses diet - it made them run on a sugar high with the inability to focus. And the owner's favorite sentence was: "I fed this way all my life and never had a problem with that".....yeah, right........she also caused my mini to have 3 laminitis episodes because she kept ignoring my feeding guidelines and then blamed it on his trim....:rolleyes:

See, I could look at the same "evidence" you came up with and draw the conclusion that the horses behave this way because they are arabians/arabian crosses since statistically I know more arabians with this behavior then any other breed. Last week after doing stalls and feeding I brought horses in, I had one mare (an arabian) snort and spook back out of her stall because we had just gotten a new shipment of hay in and this flake was much greener then the last flake. Statistics can be manipulated to confuse people in many ways and I think owner and breed issues should be considered in this case before feed.

[BornToRide]

Not quite sure what you are trying to say. Yes, Arabs tend to be more spirited, but I have also seen most if not all apparently crazy Arabs calm down and become sensible on a low carb diet, which they should be on anyway because they tend to be such easy keepers and prone to IR. Again, you look for trends and what the possible root causes may be. An Arab on grain and/or alfalfa is generally a horse on crack.

[kung fu buckskin]

My 15-yr-old OTTB has recently adopted the persona of Wild Demon Monkey Horse including extremely studmeister-type behaviors. This has been increasingly his personality starting about six months ago when I switched from a grain based feed to a soy-based feed (we're not bashing here so won't state the feed brand/variety) actually recommended by a local vet who doesn't "believe" in equine metabolic issues. Starting today he is officially off the soy and I'll follow up with The Rest of the Story. As an aside, I read all of Dr. Kellon's materials and subscribe to the group. However, I don't recall this feed being on the no-no list so will have to review all those materials again.

And - because along with metabolic issues generally comes the need for a farrier with know-how for supportive hoof care, I am desperately seeking a new farrier who is willing and knowledgeably able to work on a chronic founder case, older OTTB mare with mechanical founder with occasional mild laminitic flareups (she does not seem in any way metabolic). Mid-Willamette Valley, Oregon, if anyone can refer me, thanks for the info.

[BornToRide]

older OTTB mare with mechanical founder with occasional mild laminitic flareups (she does not seem in any way metabolic).
Did you have her blood tested? As you probably know from the Cushings group, only then can you tell for certain whether or not she's affected.

[Auventera Two]

I also wanted to add that I have frequently experienced horse owners say they horses are fine, when in fact they were not. They just do not know what to look for or they chose to ignore signs. I know a lady who feeds straight alfalfa and senior feed to her to Arab crosses. The horses appear fine when you look at them, but they are both very cranky horses, very tight in their bodies, very over-reactive and disrespectful. Her gelding just took off and jumped the gate next to her one time, because she could not open it fast enough for him:eek:. She also had at least 3 black eyes when I knew her, from being smacked by her gelding's head . The mare would over-react any time a car drove by that back fired and she's lived in that area all her life. It is easy to assume those are training issues. Perhaps some of it is, but most of it was actually caused by the horses diet - it made them run on a sugar high with the inability to focus. And the owner's favorite sentence was: "I fed this way all my life and never had a problem with that".....yeah, right........she also caused my mini to have 3 laminitis episodes because she kept ignoring my feeding guidelines and then blamed it on his trim....:rolleyes:

Not quite sure what you are trying to say. Yes, Arabs tend to be more spirited, but I have also seen most if not all apparently crazy Arabs calm down and become sensible on a low carb diet, which they should be on anyway because they tend to be such easy keepers and prone to IR. Again, you look for trends and what the possible root causes may be. An Arab on grain and/or alfalfa is generally a horse on crack.

Then what's your answer for my Arab who rarely gets more than a pound or so of grain a day (and usually more like a cupfull), with 95% of her diet being grass/alfalfa hay, pasture, and some molasses free beet pulp? Very hard keeper. Extremely hot and reactive. 24/7 turnout 3 seasons of the year, winter in a huge stall at night.

I'll give you a hint - it was severe gastric ulcers. Being that this horse had never been pumped up on grain (I owned her her whole life), the ulcers weren't caused from too much sugar in the stomach and big loads of sweet feed fed 2x a day like some barns feed.

Keep in mind that BREEDING plays a huge roll also. My mare is halter bred, from one of the hottest lines there is. I chose that breeding and that line, and that means that I just naturally have a horse that is far far more "UP" than many horses.

My mare has been on a low sugar diet with a very natural lifestyle her whole life and she continually got hotter and spookier the older she got and the more she was ridden. It wasn't because of a high sugar diet. It was because of gastric ulcers, and her genetics. Some horses are just naturally hot and spooky and some aren't. That's just the way it is.

[kung fu buckskin]

Born to Ride, unfortunately the local vet, only game in town, is one of those unbelievers in equine metabolic issues. Sigh. Reluctantly agreed to do a dex suppression test "if I really thought something was wrong." From the Kellon group information I believe that could precipitate or worsen an already compromised horse - I really do not want to see this mare go through a people-induced laminitis attack. The mechanical founder event was specific, identifiable, with the immediate response of laminitis followed by significant rotation. Not often that laminitis/founder has a clearly identifiable provenance! If I can convince an out-of-area vet to attend the older mare I'll request the testing recommended by the Kellon group.

Meaty Ogre, regarding your elderly mini - I have one identical to your description (except she loves everyone, even me) and have to body clip 2x year to keep her comfortable. Best information from previous owner and looking at teeth is that she is 35-36, more or less (probably more). Also has the usual miniature horse dental issues and is seeing a specialist who charges more than my own human dentist....She loves to have children pet her, hug her, dress her up in cowboy boots and hat, braid flowers in her main and tail, etc. Exquisitely gentle and sweet and only gets a little mad at me about having to stand still to get her fuzz buzzed twice yearly. But - as for lethargy and excess hairiness, at the recommendation of a mini breeder north of me who has studied mini nutrition extensively, I'm putting this sweet old lady on hawthorne flowers/berries which boosts heart function, as it is evidently fairly common for less efficient heart function after minis pass the big 3-0. Less efficient heart muscle activity leads to lethargy, slower circulation, less efficient other organs, excess hairiness.

Sorry, my comment to MO is not soy related, but I guess the original thread over on SHB is closed.

[pintopiaffe]

A2, have you ever tried your mare OFF alfalfa?

Interestingly (to me, anyway) three of the 'alfalfa silly' sensitives I know are Ayerab or part Ayerab, including my own beloved.

Absolutely ulcers can cause the symptoms you're describing, but so can alfalfa. And if the ulcers are addressed and the issues continue (not clear from your posts whether that is the case or not) try removing the 'falf.

MSM can cause similar reaction, and yet is often used as a buffer for ulcers/ulcer prone. (2g 20-30mins pre-buting was the recommendation)

[Auventera Two]

I've never had her 100% off alfalfa, but I've backed her down to only getting a flake of it once or twice a week, and all the rest grass and that didn't make any difference. The vets at the clinic said to feed as much alfalfa as possible because it's really good for ulcers! :lol: Catch 22 isn't it? Hmmm.

I'd say about 80% of her nutty behavior has gone away since I treated the ulcers. She's still a 5 yr old Ayrab enjoying the cold fall weather you know, but at least she's not spooking at every darned little thing anymore.

[pintopiaffe]

well, the amount of alfalfa in joint supplements (fed at what, 1oz, 2oz maximum?) is enough to make a difference in my guy... just sayin' ;) He acts like he's uncomfortable in his skin... spooking, shying, bargey to lead etc. And this guy is IMPECCABLE normally. The most polite, well mannered horse on the farm. But that little whiff is enough to set him off... <shrugs>

[meaty ogre]

Meaty Ogre, regarding your elderly mini - I have one identical to your description (except she loves everyone, even me) and have to body clip 2x year to keep her comfortable. Best information from previous owner and looking at teeth is that she is 35-36, more or less (probably more). Also has the usual miniature horse dental issues and is seeing a specialist who charges more than my own human dentist....She loves to have children pet her, hug her, dress her up in cowboy boots and hat, braid flowers in her main and tail, etc. Exquisitely gentle and sweet and only gets a little mad at me about having to stand still to get her fuzz buzzed twice yearly. But - as for lethargy and excess hairiness, at the recommendation of a mini breeder north of me who has studied mini nutrition extensively, I'm putting this sweet old lady on hawthorne flowers/berries which boosts heart function, as it is evidently fairly common for less efficient heart function after minis pass the big 3-0. Less efficient heart muscle activity leads to lethargy, slower circulation, less efficient other organs, excess hairiness.

Sorry, my comment to MO is not soy related, but I guess the original thread over on SHB is closed.

Thanks for the tip! I think I'll give it a shot.

[BornToRide]

Then what's your answer for my Arab who rarely gets more than a pound or so of grain a day (and usually more like a cupfull), with 95% of her diet being grass/alfalfa hay, pasture, and some molasses free beet pulp? Very hard keeper. Extremely hot and reactive. 24/7 turnout 3 seasons of the year, winter in a huge stall at night.

I'll give you a hint - it was severe gastric ulcers. Being that this horse had never been pumped up on grain (I owned her her whole life), the ulcers weren't caused from too much sugar in the stomach and big loads of sweet feed fed 2x a day like some barns feed.

Hmmmmm, and what do you think caused her gastric ulcers in the first place??!! Research has shown that feeding grain alters the gut ph and making the lining more susceptible to developing ulcers.


Equine Gastric Ulcer Syndrome
In recent years, great advances have been made in the understanding of equine gastric ulcer syndrome (EGUS), particularly in its relationship to diet. Frank Andrews, DVM, MS, Dipl. ACVIM, of the University of Tennessee, is one of the pioneers of EGUS research.
"Soluble carbohydrates (found in grain) are fermented by bacteria living in the stomach to produce volatile fatty acids (VFAs), which have a low pH and are lipid soluble," Andrews says. "The lower the pH in the stomach, particularly when less than pH 4.0, the more likely VFAs can penetrate cells lining the stomach and cause damage. VFAs inhibit normal sodium transport functions in the cells, allowing an influx of physiologic water, with resultant cellular swelling and death. Affected mucosa (stomach lining) sloughs away to form ulcers. The more acidic the stomach contents, and the less mucous barrier available, the more the mucosal lining is at risk for injury."
Overfeeding of highly soluble carbohydrates leads to ulcers and hindgut problems along with overgrowth of damaging bacterial flora in the bowel.
Andrews says studies have shown that, "When a horse must be fed grain, a protective diet relies on restricting the amount of grain fed to less than one pound of sweet feed per 220 pounds body weight. If higher levels of grain are needed, then do not feed this amount any more frequently than every five hours. This keeps the horse's stomach beneath a 'threshold level' of VFAs."
He says adding calcium carbonate in the form of calcium supplements or calcium-containing feed (alfalfa hay) might hasten the recovery of cellular sodium transport systems in gastric mucosa of horses by increasing the pH of gastric contents and stimulating sodium transport in tissues.
"This could reverse acid injury caused by VFAs and hydrochloric acid (HCl) secreted in the process of digestion," he says. "Such mucosal injury is pH and VFA concentration-dependent and may be a reason why diets high in fermentable carbohydrates have been implicated in the development of gastric ulcers in horses."
According to Andrews, even a flake of alfalfa hay fed every five hours achieves some benefit by buffering acid in the stomach.
There is a bit of concern about the correlation of alfalfa in the diet and the problem of developing enteroliths (mineral stones in the GI tract), particularly in the western United States.
Andrews says, "A mixture of grass hay and alfalfa might decrease the incidence of enteroliths. While alfalfa provides its buffering capacity, grass hay minimizes the amount of calcium and magnesium that contribute to enterolith formation." It is possible that the feeding of acetic acid (vinegar) as a strategy to thwart enterolith formation in horses could exacerbate the risk for developing EGUS.

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=7207&kw=ulcers

What doesn't seem to sink in with some horse owners is the fact that it does not take much at all to cause symptoms in some horses, in which case I agree that their sensitivity level is probably determined by their genes. Even a handful of grain can be too much for some horses!!

I second the suggestion - have you ever tried your Arab on just grass hay forage with vitamins and minerals as needed? You might be pleasantly surprised about what you find. I dare ya :)

[LMH]

BTR are you related to gottalovethecowgirl by any chance?

Or at least are you two BFF?

[BornToRide]

No and why do you think that's relevant?! Too much information for some people to digest? Are you concerned it might cause unnecessary neuron entanglement in sensitive people? :D :lol: