Gov't Bailout Fails- Horse Economy?

[Marli]

Gonna go out on a limb and ask-

After the Gov't bailout plan failure today, the largest plunge of the stock market in U.S. history, foreign banks now reporting problems- what concensus is there as to how this will effect the horse economy (which has already been terrible for months)?

[onthebit]

Life will go on, including the horse economy. People will no longer be able to finance homes they can't afford with bad credit on adjustable rate mortagages so they can afford the payments (at least until the loan adjusts) and finance 100%, or worse more than 100%. Ditto with cars and other things. People with good credit and reasonable down payments will still be able to buy homes, cars, etc. People are still going to horse shows, buying and selling horses, boarding, buying tack, etc. Of course some people have cut back but it isn't like this would be the first down economy we've ever experienced in this country, or even the worst one.

[Frank B]

Well, a lot of people that took out second mortgages on their houses and/or maxed out their credit cards to get into our horse world are in a heap of trouble, not that they weren't already.

There's a lot of hype and hysteria being pushed by the mass media and politicians, pandering to the public for political gain. Forget about them and refer to the financial news sources for more objective and accurate analyses.

Recent comments by political leaders show just how clueless they are about economics.

Me, I'm looking at sound bank equities (there ARE plenty out there, just do your homework), and that draft mare (whoever she may be) I've always wanted may be coming closer to reality.

ETA: This ain't nuttin, Honey! Remember the 1987 "crash"? I called my stockbroker BIL that afternoon and asked how he was doing. His reply (in a slightly whiskey-slurred voice): "I'm up to my neck in bearsh*t!" Investments made a few days later eventually paid for my jumper and the Prix De Nation I placed on his back.

[Auventera Two]

I'm glad it failed. That was about the most stupid idea Bush has pulled out of his *ss yet. :rolleyes: Oh pardon me - no it's not. Invading Iraq was the stupidest.

Life will go on. The biggest difference is that people making $50K a year won't be able to buy $350,000 farms. Oh, boo hoo.

[grandprixjump]

Is the fact that, what is failing, is the BIGGEST businesses in the country, after merger, upon merger, upon merger, putting too much control and power into too few hands, and the gov is still allowing these big mergers to happen, what kind of wake up call does everyone need?
Personally the stock market won't effect me, I don't have any stock at all, and believe that the only people who should make money from a business are the owners and employees. People sitting at a computer or on Wall Street deserve exactly what happens to them, especially the ones forcing the price of OIL high...

[mew]

Thats not quite true, if the markets seize because there is no liquidity, then there will be no one who can get loans. Banks must keep a certain amount of cash on hand to cover any possible withdrawals. If the loans they already have out are not being paid and there is not a growing increase of deposits they do not have any money to loan. It then feeds upon it self.

This most likely will cause quite a down turn for quite a few people, the largest drop in the market (including the great depression) isn't something to sneeze at.


About oil, the high oil prices are mostly due to a very large increase in demand from India and China, not speculation, there is a limited amount of oil that can be pumped it takes 5-10 years to get a field on line where as it doesn't take much time at all to add demand.

[SuperSTB]

I'm trying to see the silver lining- but it's tough.

Where I currently live- was agriculture not 5-10yrs ago. In the past real estate boon- all those lovely So Cal developments shooting up- ate up the cow and crop land. Dairies were shutting down at more than 1 per month- one day you'd see cows, next day empty fields, following day they're tearing down the barns. Of course building on those farms didn't happen right away. So now on my way to work I get to drive by:

subdivision, empty overgrown fields, graded field but no houses, partially graded remains of a thoroughbred racing farm, empty overgrown field, subdivision, empty overgrown field, subdivision, shopping plaza, working dairy farm, empty overgrown field, subdivision, empty dairy farm, overgrown field, subdivision, crops!, working dairy farm, empty overgrown field, graded field but no houses, working dairy farm, empty dairy farm, industrial buildings, empty overgrown field, working dairy farm, golf course, and onto the highway.

It's sad because those subdivisions are now chock full of foreclosed homes as evident by dead landscaping and repo signs. It'd be great if the farmers can lease the empty lots for haying and crops at the very least!

[AppendixQHLover]

Where I am is a military area so my job is pretty much ok. I am more worried for my family members who are in high-end retail jobs. Granted they TEASED me non-stop about having a boring office job.

Horse-wise...instead of taking the money I got from my aunt passing and buying a horse. I am going to pay off my high interest credit card, and pay down some of our HELOC. The only fun thing I might get is buy a new dressage saddle, and a nice show dress sheet.

[Lori B]

I don't think the failure of the bailout will hit me (or most folks) immediately, but I think that what does and doesn't get figured out in the next few months will impact all of us, for a very long time, because of the likely effect on the availability of basic business credit to non-crazy non-mortgage related business ventures that we are all connected to. Main Street as well as Wall Street.

Pack your lunches, be frugal, and hang on, folks.

[SuperSTB]

Oh anyone with 401K and protfolios are certainly getting walloped today. I don't even want to know how much money my prtfolio lost today. It'll come back eventually but the thought is still bothering...

Thank you for pointing out liquidity which is exactly why the bailout is such a hot button issue and why it very likely failed to pass.

Banks loan money to each other and also buy/sell debt. When the large insitutions are failing- there's no transfering of 'money'. It's like cutting off circulation in a way.

So people with good to great credit are very well likely to have trouble borrowing- including businesses. That means the less money for car loans, credit cards, etc... this is what in part keeps the economy going.

The bailout was to hopefully keep the circulation going.

[AppendixQHLover]

Oh anyone with 401K and protfolios are certainly getting walloped today. I don't even want to know how much money my prtfolio lost today. It'll come back eventually but the thought is still bothering...


Yeah...I think I will cry.

[Secretariat2]

I wasn't sure about the bailout either, but it sure sounds like something needs to be done. Unfortunately the damage won't be limited to just people with stock or people who overspent on a house. If credit dries up the way they are predicting, people will stop spending. They won't buy cars, they won't eat out, they won't drive as much and they sure as heck won't buy horses. If they stop borrowing and spending, businesses will lose money and go belly up and then people will lose their jobs - a LOT of people :(

[deltawave]

As long as people keep smoking and eating fast food, my job is secure.

I'm hoping I can still swing the new horse trailer I've already picked out. :( Depending upon how the finances work out, I may either get an even better deal . . . or it will be a no-go. :sigh:

Your 401K hasn't lost a thing unless you cash it out. This too shall pass, although likely not for a few years.

[Frank B]

Lawmakers and presidential candidates alike are "trying to orchestrate everybody jumping off the cliff together," said Robert Shapiro, a consultant who was an economic adviser to President Clinton. "I think we'd have a different plan if we weren't five weeks out from the election."
COMPLETE ARTICLE: (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080929/rescue_winners_losers.html)

[cordial]

I'm glad it failed. That was about the most stupid idea Bush has pulled out of his *ss yet. :rolleyes: Oh pardon me - no it's not. Invading Iraq was the stupidest.

Life will go on. The biggest difference is that people making $50K a year won't be able to buy $350,000 farms. Oh, boo hoo.

What a thoughtful and mature post. With such intelligence....you should consider getting into politics

[Secretariat2]

As long as people keep smoking and eating fast food, my job is secure.

Well I don't smoke, but I used to stop at Wendy's on the way home from my 2 day a week job and buy some lunch. I didn't today - I waited until I got home and fixed myself some leftovers. I bet a lot of people are doing something similar - finding ways to cut back. I was going to breed another foal next year as I sold a 3 year old in 2008. I'm not now.

[Secretariat2]

What a thoughtful and mature post. With such intelligence....you should consider getting into politics

:lol:

Seriously though, I thought of posting a response to this, but frankly, I'm so tired of all the partisan finger pointing and rancor. It makes a lot of people feel better to blame Bush for everything.

[greysandbays]

I wasn't sure about the bailout either, but it sure sounds like something needs to be done. Unfortunately the damage won't be limited to just people with stock or people who overspent on a house. If credit dries up the way they are predicting, people will stop spending. They won't buy cars, they won't eat out, they won't drive as much and they sure as heck won't buy horses. If they stop borrowing and spending, businesses will lose money and go belly up and then people will lose their jobs - a LOT of people :(

Anybody living on credit should have stopped "spending" a long time ago! :eek:

I make less than $16,000 a year and I can manage to use my three credit cards like debit cards without carrying any balances due over into the next month's statement.

[RhythmTempo]

I don't even want to know how much money my prtfolio lost today.

Me either! I'm too scared to look!!!! :eek: :no:

[Secretariat2]

Anybody living on credit should have stopped "spending" a long time ago! :eek:

I make less than $16,000 a year and I can manage to use my three credit cards like debit cards without carrying any balances due over into the next month's statement.

Nobody can live on $16,000 a year. Do you pay rent? Drive a car? Eat?

Somebody is subsidizing you.

[monalisa]

Many you are not very knowledgeable about how our economy works if you think doing nothing about our current situation won't have an effect on you. It might not if you are independently wealthy and have lots of cash to live on. But the rest of us will be affected if not today then within a reasonable period of time.

The trickle down effect of all of this will affect most of us. You won't be able to sell your house if you want to move (despite falling prices) as no one will be able to get a loan. The credit markets have dried up, no one wants to lend money. Even if you have great credit, banks won't have money to lend if the credit markets dry up. And then the cost of borrowing will increase dramatically.

Businesses won't expand (can't without access to capital).

Bankruptcies are going to increase substantially IMHO. People have quit shopping for anything but the bare necessities. This will have a snowball effect once it really takes hold and will impact stores, restaurants, small businesses. Glad I am not in the retail sector. Come January it is going to be really ugly.

Shopping center owners are going to be stuck with leases that have been terminated due to bankrupticies and they won't be able to do anything about it. The cleaning lady who cleans the mall will be out of a job. The gardner and the landscaping company will also lose out on the deal.

Car loans are gone (at least for now). Your brother in law who sells Fords will be out of a job as will many of the mechanics who work for the local dealership.

Tax revenues will fall even more. No tax revenue means no money for schools, roads, pensions, parks, etc. Local municipalities won't be able to raise taxes either. People will be laid off as there will be no other option.

This cycle will go on and on and on. It may get very ugly indeed out there. Forget your retirement portfolio. I am too young to retire, thank goodness.

[Arizona DQ]

:lol:

Seriously though, I thought of posting a response to this, but frankly, I'm so tired of all the partisan finger pointing and rancor. It makes a lot of people feel better to blame Bush for everything.

I am so tired of people pointing to Bush. Obviously, these people were absent from class when they taught how the government runs.:(

It is Congress who draws up most of the legislation and pushes it forward to the President to sign or not. What party pushed for "everyone" to own a home?? Who pushed lenders to take chances on those people who had bad or not credit? Who pushed for mpore regulation of these companies and who worked against regulating them????? And WHO is getting the largest sums of campaign funding form Fannie Mae and company??? Geesh people. Do not show your ignorance by spouting off the typical leftist rant! :mad:

[Sithly]

Well, I don't have any stocks, but I do have student loans. I'll need to keep borrowing for the next two years (unless I get a major scholarship).

If borrowing for school becomes a problem, the horse will have to go. I'd probably try to free lease him to my BO for use in lessons. That would be my first choice. If that didn't fly, I'd have to think about selling or free leasing to a stranger.

[Secretariat2]

Well, I don't have any stocks, but I do have student loans. I'll need to keep borrowing for the next two years (unless I get a major scholarship).

If borrowing for school becomes a problem, the horse will have to go. I'd probably try to free lease him to my BO for use in lessons. That would be my first choice. If that didn't fly, I'd have to think about selling or free leasing to a stranger.

Trouble is that your BO might not be giving any more lessons so she won't want the expense of your horse and you might not be able to find a stranger to buy or even take your horse on, even for free.

[4Martini]

Nobody can live on $16,000 a year. Do you pay rent? Drive a car? Eat?

Somebody is subsidizing you.

I've done it.

I rented a walk in closet while I was in grad school. I walked to school and was very frugal. It's do-able. You just have to do what most Americans seem incapable of - understanding your limits and living within them. I used to eat a lot of Little Juan 10/ $1 buritoes too. (Maybe I'll need to set up an appointment later with Deltawave for those sins...)

ETA- It was priceless not having student loans when I graduated! (Tuition was paid for by the University - but all of my living expenses were out of my very small stipend and a part time lifeguarding gig.)

[seeuatx]

There goes my hope of going to grad school... :(. I'm afraid there will be little hope of getting a good sized student loan. Sigh, hopefully my retail job will hold long enough to find something that pays a real salary. No hope for a new pony anytime soon either.

[katarine]

I'm pretty sure I recall that Greys and Bays lives in a house without running water? Living on 16k is possible.

And didn't the real estate deregulation/mortgage mess get its real roots under Carter?

Thomas Sowell has much to say on the topic that is easy to read. Check him out. http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell1.asp

And before it's too damn easy to just blame Bush, let me remind you Chris Dodd (D), Barney Frank (D), Chuck Shumer (D) ALL sold us on how GREAT Freddie and Fannie were doing just months ago. BS. Utter BS. Now they want to hold their hands out for more money.

You think doing nothing is the answer? If not nothing, then what?

Our main contractor we do commercial - not residential- COMMERCIAL wiring for hasn't had a new job in 2+ months. We're eeking by but this screwed up economy is NOT just about 50k a year buying too much house. If you don't know more than that, then bless your heart ignorance must be bliss.

[monalisa]

And you can live on $16K a year if you have to. I have done it. Where I live, most people don't make $16K a year. And those that do are supporting a family on less than that.

[tx3dayeventer]

For all of those saying they are losing money on their stocks, you are only losing money on paper. If you actually sell the stock then you must realize a loss on your tax return and then in turn you really ARE losing money. If you don't sell then you have not lost. Look at the history of the DOW.

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%5EDJI#chart4:symbol=^dji;range=19600701 ,20080926;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshai r=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on

if for some reason the years don't come up. I have adjusted the chart to be from 1960 to today. You adjust the graph by moving the sliding "divider" that is on the timeline of dates directly above the headlines.

we are doing much better when you look at it in this aspect. So we had a large loss but we are still in the ten's of thousands unlike in 1925 (I think?) when the DOW hit the all time low of 42.

It will take a few years to rebound but this is what happens when the bank break rules and lend to people that cannot afford what they are borrowing.

BTW. I work in the financial industry.

[Sithly]

Trouble is that your BO might not be giving any more lessons so she won't want the expense of your horse and you might not be able to find a stranger to buy or even take your horse on, even for free.

I'm sure things will work themselves out in the long run. My horse is young, sound, well-trained, and saintly in disposition. I'm confident I could find a place for him somewhere with some creative thinking. If all else fails, I'll sell the car, keep the horse in the garage, and ride to school. :lol:

[BeastieSlave]

Many you are not very knowledgeable about how our economy works if you think doing nothing about our current situation won't have an effect on you. It might not if you are independently wealthy and have lots of cash to live on. But the rest of us will be affected if not today then within a reasonable period of time.

Thank you! It will affect all of us! Those idiots should have been working on a plan ages ago - then we might not have needed to be a 'bailout' :mad:

For all of those saying they are losing money on their stocks, you are only losing money on paper. If you actually sell the stock then you must realize a loss on your tax return and then in turn you really ARE losing money. If you don't sell then you have not lost. Look at the history of the DOW.

Basically, I agree with this and that's why I haven't been bothering my stock broker. I'm in for the long haul, and always believed that you buy low and sell high. However, my family lost a hefty chunk today. It was real and now it's gone. My MIL recently died. She had a good bit of Wachovia stock. My DH (who until a few years ago also worked in finance) advised the executor to dump it back when it struggled up to $20 per share, but the executor didn't....

[AUeventer]

The economic crisis is having a HUGE effect on me. I say this here as I wonder if I have some spaghetti-o's to eat tonight...my prelim eventer is sitting in the pasture because i can't afford to show him...my consignment lease is being shipped back to his owner because i can't sell a horse in this damn market...i think things are going to be much worse than people think. if you are naive enough to think that you won't be affected by it, WAKE UP, because you will. Maybe not today, but very soon. I am a victim of the housing market, but other industries are slowing down as well. :no:

[deltawave]

Anybody living on credit should have stopped "spending" a long time ago! Including, perhaps, the financial industry? :no:

I'm not quite ready to despair, but I do often console myself with the fact that ultimately, the planet is going to win and our very real human troubles can be seen to be quite small on a very, very large scale. Small comfort, I realize, but I'm sort of a "glass 1/2 full" type.

[Huntertwo]

I am so tired of people pointing to Bush. Obviously, these people were absent from class when they taught how the government runs.:(

It is Congress who draws up most of the legislation and pushes it forward to the President to sign or not. What party pushed for "everyone" to own a home?? Who pushed lenders to take chances on those people who had bad or not credit? Who pushed for mpore regulation of these companies and who worked against regulating them????? And WHO is getting the largest sums of campaign funding form Fannie Mae and company??? Geesh people. Do not show your ignorance by spouting off the typical leftist rant! :mad:

:yes::yes::yes: Thank you - I'm just too darn tired to reply to the "stupidest" Bush blaming threads.

[Tex Mex]

Yes I think today's decision will have an effect on me. I am trying to take this opportunity to focus on the things that I have and that can't be taken away from me- My faith, my husband and my family. And my dogs. I will continue to find ways to ride and have horses in my life but I am grateful that I don't have to worry about paying board and training right now. I don't envy those who do, but I feel like we all need to put some thought into what we really love about our sport, and if we can't buy new equipment, go to a horse show every week, or have the best mover, will it still be fun? This is a hard one for me since I love to horse show and I love the business but I am looking at this as a chance to reevaluate my priorities.

[greysandbays]

Nobody can live on $16,000 a year. Do you pay rent? Drive a car? Eat?

Somebody is subsidizing you.

Home is owned outright, mortage paid off years ago. It ain't much, but the bank has no finger in it.

Car is a older Caravan that gets almost 30mpg. Paid $1550 for it.

Food comes out of the garden for the most part.

I recently spent $62 at a garage sale. Got a dozen pairs of jeans (four brand new, still had the tags), two down vests, several shirts, and a few cheap woven baskets for house plants. I include this only to provide an example of how damn hard you can squeeze a nickle if you decide you must. Most people wait too long to decide they must.

[Marli]

What happens to those whose employer depends on credit to make payroll?

For anyone still in the workforce and owning a horse (whether boarded or kept at home), the possibility of having a job (still) but not being able to collect pay is a real threat, and I see that having a direct impact on the ability to provide/keep horses, would you agree?

[SuperSTB]

For all of those saying they are losing money on their stocks, you are only losing money on paper. If you actually sell the stock then you must realize a loss on your tax return and then in turn you really ARE losing money. If you don't sell then you have not lost. Look at the history of the DOW.

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%5EDJI#chart4:symbol=^dji;range=19600701 ,20080926;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshai r=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on

if for some reason the years don't come up. I have adjusted the chart to be from 1960 to today. You adjust the graph by moving the sliding "divider" that is on the timeline of dates directly above the headlines.

we are doing much better when you look at it in this aspect. So we had a large loss but we are still in the ten's of thousands unlike in 1925 (I think?) when the DOW hit the all time low of 42.

It will take a few years to rebound but this is what happens when the bank break rules and lend to people that cannot afford what they are borrowing.

BTW. I work in the financial industry.

I over simplified but yes- 401K *did* lose value today. Can it be regained- yes- overtime. So while it's "paper" loss- it's just not black and white and I apologize for the over simplification.

HOWEVER it's a little more complicated than my typing fingers want to spell out right now. IN a nutshell- depends on when you plan to retire and if the market can regain to that point.

[thatmoody]

I'm getting out of grad school next year with a PhD. I went into education thinking that while I would probably never make major money, at least I'd have a steady job.

I will not. I have a full time job now as a teacher, but found out that my contract will most likely not be renewed, even though I'm the only person teaching a high demand discipline at my regional campus. They will let the classes go (and with the space center closing, those people will need retraining) and to hell with the students. I understand the administration side, though, because I've also worked in this University's administration. They don't have the money, and it's real. None of the admins are getting a raise, although the teachers are, but there won't be any new lines, and renewal lines (mine is one) will be "reviewed" before being renewed.

Our problem is more the property tax amendment in Florida, but the current economic situation will certainly affect me, even though our expenses are relatively low. I was making it on a grad student's salary, but I can't keep horses on that (I was out of them for 8 years while in grad school, and recently was able to get back in thanks to the full-time position. Now I'm heartbroken at the thought of it, but that's why I'm leasing rather than buying).

[tweeter]

I retired almost 3 years ago, took an early retirement. Sigh. I refuse to look at my portfolio, no point in getting upset about it. Can't do anything about it now. My 403B (I think that's what it is) is invested in the super-safe stuff, bonds issued by the government especially for the TSP. So while it isn't making much, it can't lose value either.

So far I'm making it ok, and could always go back to work if I had to (but I'd rather pick up cans by the side of the road). House is paid for, no credit card bills (I pay up every month). Besides the usual stuff like insurance, electricity and gas, I only have one debt, and I could pay that off if I needed to.

I'm seriously reconsidering bringing in another horse, much as I want to help with a rescue/OTTB/or one just needing a home, I'm just not sure if I should take on the responsibility now.

[tkhawk]

It is very tough. But it is going to impact people differently. I am lucky-didn't buy a house so just rent. My job is in IT -my problem is offshoring-but that has been going on for a while . But job wise it is very tough here. A lot of my colleagues/friends bought houses at the peak at what they thought were cheap prices-500k-700k and now are worth 200k to 300k. It is tough to pay your mortgage knowing your house is worth only that. One or two of my friends actually bought a new house much closer to the city at a very cheap price and just walked away from the old home.
If push comes to shove, I can rent at a much cheaper place-get rid of the truck/trailer. I still have about a yr worth of expenses stashed away and if I have to can extend to two yrs by becoming miserly. But everything is changing-people are struggling. It is easy to blame folks-but people were listening to the top folks. It was Alan Greenspan, then Fed Chairman who asked people to take out adjustable rate mortgages at the height of the boom. So who are you going to listen to when the Fed chairman is advising to do it?
In fact among my group of folks who immigrated here a while ago-I am the only one with no house. At that time everybody derided me and thought I was stupid. I felt I wanted to enjoy my life-I travelled , had a horse, now two and just enjoyed my life-did whatever I felt like doing. I did build up some credit card debt-but always knew how much and how long it would take to pay me off-so adjusted my spedning according to how much my comfort zone was. So today I am somehwat ok-my 410k is not too great-but I have a long time to cash out so no problem there... Now the strange thing is all my friends think of me as some genius!! But it is sad-these were all hard working sincere folks who really did not do anything wrong-they worked , saved their money-bought a house and a car and did not spend any money even on fancy vacations and now are so deep in debt -that I feel sad for them. While me I played, enjoyed life and did what my heart told me to and I am ok!! Even I find it hard to believe....Life takes strange twists...

[pandorasboxx]

It absolutely affects even those with good credit. My previous company sold out last year when health insurance and workers compensation costs skyrocketed but it depended on a funding company that paid our bills and payroll based on receivables. If credit had dried up then, our entire workforce would have been out of business not to mention the vendors that we supported with our business.

My husband's employer is a very large commercial contractor. They have been feeling the pinch as available work is drying up. They employ hundreds not to mention all the subcontractors that depend on them for work. As of last week, my husband mentioned that no one, subs or his company is hiring and is in fact, quietly laying people off.

So, yes it will affect everyone in some way. To what extent, who knows. But the longer it goes on, the more worried I will be. Building our property has already flown out the window and we are hunkering down in all aspects. That means less money in the economy and more job losses to come.

[Sakura]

what kind of wake up call does everyone need?


This kind.

It won't affect me as much... gonna buy some goats and chickens... ride out the storm...

[Sakura]

I am so tired of people pointing to Bush. Obviously, these people were absent from class when they taught how the government runs.:(


This is how it runs... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5tZc8oH--o

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs)

[tkhawk]

This kind.

It won't affect me as much... gonna buy some goats and chickens... ride out the storm...

This might work-land is dirt cheap to rent/lease. So buy goats and chickens and maybe a a few cows and we already have horses so all we need is a herding dog and we are set-us animal folks can wait it out till this becomes better-at least we have a food source :lol:!!!

[J Swan]

[quote=Sakura;3549448]This kind.

It won't affect me as much... gonna buy some goats and chickens... ride out the storm...[/quote


I grow almost all our food, have chickens going into the freezer soon, and keeping a few layers. Next spring, we'll add some steers and maybe a couple of pigs.

It was kind of a pain to can and process all the food.... but seeing how prices are I'm glad I did it.


What makes me sad is that I live in a rural area and I've seen 6 homes foreclosed on - right near me. Not McMansions, nothing fancy. Small homes, older homes. A lady I know heard barking coming from one and found 6 dogs abandoned inside.

[Calvincrowe]

What makes you all think they won't try a different plan? Sure, this one didn't pass the House--wisely I think. Too many questions, too little oversight, too fast. This "Crisis" is not either party's fault, but a twisted mess of bad loans, bad investment, non-existent regulation of the financial systems of the US. Should Congress and the President have "done something" earlier? Sure. But what? This is like closing the barn door after the horses are out.

I'm pissed at all those greedy Gus's out there who bought homes they couldn't afford and all those shady "loan companies" who didn't verify income, and those banks who buy and sell home loans as investments. Did they seriously think they could afford a $500K house on $3k a month income?? (a lady at work--her daughter did that and lost her house to foreclosure.

Horse industry? Same as any other "leisure" industry--it will take a hit. Unfortunately, this is all happening along with rising fuel and food prices. Times are going to get tough. My school I teach at has 45% Free/Reduced lunch rate--that many parents don't make enough to afford school lunches.

[Sakura]

My grandmother lived through the GD... it really affected her, she was always storing sugar and flour just in case "Hoover Days" came back... what I posted earlier was pretty lighthearted (about goats and chickens)... but I do think those of us who know how to use/manage the land and animals have a far greater advantage over those who don't.

[Twomanydawgs]

What a thoughtful and mature post. With such intelligence....you should consider getting into politics

HMMMM...guess you have forgotten that this all started wayyyyyyy back with Clinton????:no:

[Flash44]

I'm still flabbergasted that people with supposedly good financial sense (cents???) thought it was an "investment" to give loans to people who were poor credits risks and then also demand practically impossible repayment terms. What exactly did they think would happen???

What the government needs to do right this instant is to rewrite the bad loans into good loans. Instead of forgiving the loan, forgive the bad credit history and give them a loan they can live with. They keep the house, but still pay for it, which is good for everyone involved. But smack my head against a brick wall, this will never happen. Pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered, and Wall Street was at prime market weight.

[deltawave]

I think "greed" trumps "good sense" 9 times out of 10. :(

The originators of the bad loans quickly sold them in bundles to other greedy bankers who also ought to have known better.

I still don't see how anyone could or WOULD apply for a loan knowing they couldn't possibly make the payments. I'm more on the side of blaming the consumer in this one--bankers are up front about being in it for the money. What moron would lie about their income to float a loan that they couldn't repay? Or fail to read the fine print on prepayments, etc? I'm a complete math MORON but even I know that 1+1 does not equal 5. :no:

[tkhawk]

A 3k person buying a 350k house is nothing when compared to what we had in CA. Here a strawberry picker making 15k/yr qualified for a 720k zero down loan!!! I think they foreclosed a short while later.

It was just a feeding frenzy. My bank kept sending me 250k pre approved refinancing loans-I didn't even have ahouse-so how did I qualify?? This was not some starnge bank-but my bank where I ahd my checking acct and savings acct in-so at least they could look into my acct and see I wasn't paying a mortgage. it was just horrible. Most of my friends who bought houses-made careful choices. 500k to 700k houses where pretty modest prices in those days and any closer to the city was way higher in 800 900 or even a million. So they are all commutiong about a hr and half to two hrs each way to work. Yes they are McMansions-but that is what they could afford. They all married, started families and so wanted a place they could call their own. Not the recless wall street traders or greedy second home buying flippers. At that time eevryone from the national association of realtors to every talking head on Tv to the top officials of the FEd kept saying that this is a new reality-paradigm shift whatever and this is how it wa sgoing to be. then of course you see people making tens of thousands flipping houses ina matter of week and everybody want sin. it wa sjust bad. All my freinds made careful decisions-but just luck whatever turned against them.
Then of course I have other colleagues who bought their hoimes decades ago and decided to use their home to finance their kids colleges instead of getting college loans , buying cars etc ., It is just sad now-really sad. yes people had choices-but you know if your bank gives you a 250K preapprove doffer-you are tempted. I was shocked because I did not have a home-but if I had and if everyone I know from the governement on and down was telling me that this was a good idea-get the money -buy another house, buy stock. Heck even our current President wanted to privatize social security-can you imagine all the seniors today on fixed benefits -what would happen to their payouts??
there is plenty of blame to go around-but I think the governemnt/top corporate officials/CEOS should shoulder more of a blame than the average joe-that is their job and why they are getting paid to do...
Horses yes-if people are loosing their houses and families are struggling to find a living , sadly horses will be on a much lower priority...

[Daydream Believer]

I grow almost all our food, have chickens going into the freezer soon, and keeping a few layers. Next spring, we'll add some steers and maybe a couple of pigs.

It was kind of a pain to can and process all the food.... but seeing how prices are I'm glad I did it.



I am quite seriously planning to do the same right now. Looking for a few cows, some chickens, a pig, and a nice big veggie garden next year.

[deltawave]

One good thing about all this--my mailbox is far less full of credit card offers and no-guarantee loan solicitations. :sigh:

[lolalola]

Greys and bays, do you have health insurance? Just curious - don't see how you could live on 16k a year and pay property taxes as well as health insurance, plus keep horses, unless you qualify for Medicare.

[J Swan]

I am quite seriously planning to do the same right now. Looking for a few cows, some chickens, a pig, and a nice big veggie garden next year.


If you do, I will give you my recipe for pear honey. Yum yum. I had no idea pear trees were so easy to care for. I only have 2 saplings and I got 50lbs of pears.

This year my grocery bill has been about 40$ per week. Sometimes more if I have to pay co-pays for meds, or some other unusual expense. I wish my horse care expenses were as low.

I put my foot down about a milk cow. I had hoped there would be a cow share nearby - but nope. I just really do not want to milk a cow - it's not as charming as it sounds. I'll buy it at the grocery store like normal people.

A few years ago I had a really profitable mobile loan closing business. Then I noticed I kept going back to the same houses, for more HELOC or other refinancings. I started taking closer looks at the loan docs and realized that none of these people had any money. None. They had huge car loans, huge credit card debt, big houses that they couldn't afford with their salary, and they were getting an equity loan so they could go on vacation.

I had a feeling things were going to go BOOM so I closed up shop eventually. Then the subprime market went BOOM. I did not realize it would spread and get this bad, though. A lot of people (and animals) are going to suffer terribly.

[Marli]

A lot of people (and animals) are going to suffer terribly.

Yes, besides human suffering I believe there will also be great animal suffering to come. I've been thinking of another horse but within the past week- I'm not so sure. I've 6 now (all retired), can take care of them comfortably (no problems) but with the future unclear/uncertain I'd hate to make a decision and somewhere down the road feel it placed undue burden. Just don't know....

I've actually been contemplating laying chickens (eggs), a beef cow (only problem is we wouldn't eat the meat from a whole cow/only 2 people and my hub is not a real meat eater). Pigs? I have no experience with pigs though I do like pork, but again, would probably be too much.

[sidepasser]

I'm more of the homestead mentality so I don't know if I quite fit in with most horse folks. I was doing things with the mindset of living in case I lost my job years ago due to losing a husband and raising kids on one salary. It's called when the crap hits the fan..in our book. So in light of that, I've been doing things differently for years. I pay cash for most things, paid off my mortgage ten years early by working two and three jobs, and yep, kids still had ponies and rode in the hunters, we learned to do it on the cheap. We horsepooled with other parents, kept trucks till they flat wore out, had used trailers and used tack. Still got a ton of blues and a few high point trophies out of that deal and a great time. We were the tailgaters at the shows..lol..eating cold fried chicken and drinking sweet tea out of a milk jug from home. Never bought show food, horses learned to stand tied at the trailer for day shows and we tended to not go to many overnights. Kids had lessons though.

Took a page right out of Jswann's book, and canned veggies, raised chickens and put a porker in the freezer. next year added a steer to the freezer. Bartered goats for fence posts..and along the way raised twin daughters and a son with hubby deceased.

It can be done, it can be downright ugly..but I know the economy won't kill me..I'll survive as now I have a better job, better education, farm paid for, truck and trailer paid for and horses are paid for. Got a year's worth of hay in the shed and I don't make much at all. What I do is listen to Lincoln squeal..daily. Such a pleasant sound once you get used to it. Almost like a game to me now..what can I bargain or barter for? How can I cut down even more and put the money in savings? I don't want to end up an old bag lady living with my shopping cart when I'm retired so I have to do things slightly differently than those who do make much more than I do.

I don't have a big screen, hi def tv, or escada anything. Gucchi is just a name I see on the 'net and my "big" splurge is a twice a month Starbucks trip. Vet is paid up, farrier is too. I have some cc debt but nothing I couldn't pay off if I needed to. Kid is in college and I'm paying for that on my salary..I took a second job so my horses won't suffer for the education of the last kid.

It's called living low on the economic scale by choice. I could do bigger things I reckon but I like the peace of mind of knowing that I have the choice. I think some folks forgot about that. They thought they deserved the big houses, two SUVs and a big screen tv..coming right out of college. That's not how it works. Dues paying takes a while and for those that didn't pay their dues, it is coming due now.

I deal with a lot of international companies, most report to me that sales are down, and this is not retail folks. This is long term durable goods. When that happens, there are problems. Companies are cutting back and in my biz, that means layoffs. If a company can't get credit, well there ya go, they can't buy parts, they can't test, they can't afford marketing or sales..but they also can't afford NOT to have that stuff either.

Thank goodness I learned the hard way..a whole family who grew up in the depression..
our motto: use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without.

Served us pretty good over the years and the horses too. They get practical stuff, not fancy stuff and are healthy and look good. Good feed, good hay, reg. farrier and vettings. I can live without the fancy as long as the horses don't suffer.

I feel bad for those that didn't understand what they were signing and got rooked, but I have no sympathy for those that bought more house than they could afford on the hopes that they could flip it and recoup. A house should be more than simply an "investment" and should not be a piggy bank to finance the latest greatest trip or horse! Guess some folks lost sight of that along the way and now find themselves without their "investment". A hard lesson to learn especially when one is over 40.

My 401K probably tanked but I still have about 16 years before retirement, maybe it will come back, if not..maybe I can trade Jswan some goats for some chickens? I got canning jars..whatcha got Jswan?

[ReSomething]

In the long run yes it will affect me. So far we have benefitted as people sold off their shop tools, the truck and trailer and tractor for low prices. But when even the chain stores shut down non-profitable units I might have to drive twice as far to buy a product. That'll cost me. My home is not going to appreciate in value the way it did, but that was nothing but a bubble built by speculators.

Who is to blame? Well the banks, yes, but also every person who couldn't realize that there is a top to every pyramid. I had a huge fight with a co-worker over my premise that this was a bubble and going to burst; that wages were not keeping pace with the rise in home prices and the available pool of buyers was only fed by poor lending practices and that bailing out now was a good idea. It got so bad he called me names and we stopped speaking!

As far as the equine economy, Keeneland's fall yearling sale prices were down and most of the money was coming from foreign sources. I will not be going out on a limb to make my property the horse property heaven I always wanted. My diamond mesh is downgrading to simple no climb or even field fence. We will be running a diversified hobby farm and have one or two saddle horses, no breeding, possible boarding of one or two horses with a hard nosed contract.

[Calvincrowe]

I'm glad my mom was a child of the Depression--we recycle, reuse, or do without as well. I like bargain hunting. Mr. CC and I could do more of it, and we plan to. I have hens, and sell the eggs--they are self-sustaining. I'll be buying more come spring. I planted a bigger garden and folks share what they have grown at my work. Thankfully, Mr. CC and I are both teachers--steady work, not gonna get "rich" but great health benefits, and I have time to have a second job if needed (we both coach school sports, so that is a second income) beyond education.

I hate seeing waste. I collect aluminum cans--worth a nickel each in Oregon! The TV news did a story on a guy who quit his job and went to "work" picking up aluminum and glass (both worth a nickel) cans/bottles. He made nearly $40k his first year. Hard to believe, people just handed them over, in bags, to him! Fools.

[cordial]

HMMMM...guess you have forgotten that this all started wayyyyyyy back with Clinton????:no:

I guess you didn't read my post correctly....I wAS BEING SARCASTIC to her. Her comments were rude, and very inmature. Yes, I know VERY well that this started back with Clinton.
Re-read my post.

[Chief2]

I just finished listening to an NPR special on this while driving home from the barn, with an economic advisor of one of the previous presidents (I didn't catch the name) being interviewed. He was saying that part of the reason the bailout flopped today is that there is more trouble on the horizon that will need to be taken care of, in the form of bad credit card debt. Evidently there is about one trillion dollars of it getting ready to be the next bomb, with about one third of it due to people having to claim bankruptcy because of sky high medical bills their medical insurance either didn't cover, or they had no insurance to begin with. One man who called into the show had $80,000 in credit card debt due to medical expenses and can no longer keep up with the interest rates they are charging him, so he is stopping his payments altogether. Congress doesn't want to spend all of its ammunition in one war, so to speak, by propping up the banks, in preparation for the credit card debt bomb that is looming ahead.

Sounds like now would be a good time for those with outstanding card debt to try to pay down the cards as much as possible.

We are down to one horse, and it is staying that way. There's going to be some pain out there this winter, that's for sure.

[Daydream Believer]

If you do, I will give you my recipe for pear honey. Yum yum. I had no idea pear trees were so easy to care for. I only have 2 saplings and I got 50lbs of pears.

This year my grocery bill has been about 40$ per week. Sometimes more if I have to pay co-pays for meds, or some other unusual expense. I wish my horse care expenses were as low.



Thanks for the recipe! I would love to have a grocery bill of only $40 a week!

[AppendixQHLover]

I remember in the 90's the stockmarket had some issues, and it did recover in time.

It does concern me a little bit, but I can't worry myself to death about it. Money is always something that is on my mind, and how I can drop my debts.

[Frank B]

Let’s stop worrying for a second about whether the financial system works. Does the political system know how to function?

We ask because of today’s spectacularly failed bailout-bill talks, which sent the Dow down 777 points in its biggest one-day drop in history.
COMPLETE ARTICLE: (http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2008/09/29/the-bailout-failure-who-to-blame-and-what-happens-next/)

[monalisa]

I just happen to be reading a great biography about Eleanor Roosevelt. Just got to the part tonight when FDR is gettng to take office, 1932 I believe. So ironic that I was reading this tonight at this part. Anyway, a day or so before he took office, things started to really unravel and Hoover was asking for help from FDR since he was taking office the very next day.

And I quote from the book:

"Brought in from the latest reports from around the country and the The United States' credit structure was paralyzed."

"Fear mounted as the savings of millions of Americans - farmers, small business families - seemed to be locked behind iron gates." (referring to the banks closing).

Seems funny that I was reading about this happening as FDR took office in 1932 and the same thing is happening here in 2008. Our banks have not closed yet but they have certainly started to fail.

Funny how history has a way of repeating itself..........

For those who don't know the history now might be a good time for a history lesson.

[Frank B]

...And before it's too damn easy to just blame Bush, let me remind you Chris Dodd (D), Barney Frank (D), Chuck Shumer (D) ALL sold us on how GREAT Freddie and Fannie were doing just months ago...
Just in case you were wondering why they were pimpin' so hard for Fannie & Freddie... (http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/09/update-fannie-mae-and-freddie.html)

And if you want a detailed primer on the history of this debacle, click here! (http://www.ibdeditorials.com/series11.aspx)

[boosma47]

Not affecting us directly - we refinanced and paid off debt last spring, thank God, and our payments are manageable, my portfolio will rest,

(but I am pi**ed in a royal way at those who have been in charge of oversight, esp of Fannie and Freddie. Cushy little deals for the pols, for the execs and the PACs - and who pays? Us.

An interesting comparison made today. The Constitution says the govt role is to promote the well-being of its citizens, where the bailout gives the Treasury Sec the power to ensure the financial well-being of citizens.Freedom to fail, vs freedom from failure?

Another element of the package, as it stood before the vote, gave Treasury Sec freedom to bail out any financial institution, anywhere in the world.)

We will hunker down, enjoy the horses here at home, cut back on unnesessary spending like lessons, shows, etc. and Boo might learn to drive this winter!

[Starting-Point-Stables]

:cry:

Oh I come here very humble... and truthful and hope I don't get looked down upon.

I am a single mom, and at my 30 hour per week office job I bring home just about $17K a year. I have an actual technical skill I went to school for, however, I work near the small town I live in for a small business. She has over head, we compete against the bigger city firms, and I know she pays me what the business can afford (I know, I have access to the bank accounts), and I know after 4 years that things would have to get pretty bad for her to close shop (ie lay me off). I could drive 45 min - 1 hour to get a similar job in the city for more pay with a bigger company, but I fear what I'd make in a pay raise I'd pay out with gas and car maintenance (my car has nearly 200,000 miles on it, and as it is now I only drive 12 miles to work and can work from home 1 day per week), not to mention I'd worry about job security.

I subsidize that by the about $200.00 per month I clear with my small boarding/lesson business. I'm supposed to get $118.00 a week for child support, but seeings how my case is in arrears of $35,000.00 - it doesn't happen as it should (of course that is another aspect of government that needs amending). So no, I am not being subsidized. :(

No, I do not have health insurance. Yes... we are about as tight as it gets, and I live penny to penny, but the bills get paid and we have food to eat.

BUT I don't have credit card debt. I paid off my student loans finally this past spring. I may not have a savings, but, I guess not having credit debt I am doing better than a lot of people making twice as much as I do, hu?

I know I can't afford to lower my prices for boarding, and actually HAD to up them just to cover the cost of fuel for mowing this summer (ok that is slightly exaggerated), but ... I offered a 'co op' boarding option where people can work off part of their board for 3 hours of work per month. It isn't a lot, but maybe it would help offset some of their gas to get to the barn, and it maybe just enough to get a boarder who might be thinking of going else where.

I did lower my prices for lessons recently. I charged $35 for a private 1+ hr session, down to $25. Then I got a few very small, easy keeper ponies (the kind that don't require food, farrier work and only need 1/4 of a dewormer) and am really pushing younger kids 'club type' group lessons at a very inexpensive rate.... just to keep the business coming in.

I know other parents in my situation are going to start cutting those extra hobby expenses. I'm trying to do what I can to keep their business.

Personally, I have a few lightly started youngsters that I have really dropped the prices on... and am about ready to give away because I cringe at buying them hay all winter long, and my time spent in labor taking care of them would be better applied by staying at the office a half hour later every day. I just don't see how getting them going any better is going to up their selling price any time soon.

I wonder if my equine liability insurance is going to go up again this year... *sigh*. Yes, it is pretty sad when I plot my lesson programs around what is cheapest to insure.

[Chief2]

I think you are pretty smart in converting your lesson program as you have and playing to what the local market can more easily bear!

[flshgordon]

Many you are not very knowledgeable about how our economy works if you think doing nothing about our current situation won't have an effect on you. It might not if you are independently wealthy and have lots of cash to live on. But the rest of us will be affected if not today then within a reasonable period of time.

The trickle down effect of all of this will affect most of us. You won't be able to sell your house if you want to move (despite falling prices) as no one will be able to get a loan. The credit markets have dried up, no one wants to lend money. Even if you have great credit, banks won't have money to lend if the credit markets dry up. And then the cost of borrowing will increase dramatically.

Businesses won't expand (can't without access to capital).

Bankruptcies are going to increase substantially IMHO. People have quit shopping for anything but the bare necessities. This will have a snowball effect once it really takes hold and will impact stores, restaurants, small businesses. Glad I am not in the retail sector. Come January it is going to be really ugly.

Shopping center owners are going to be stuck with leases that have been terminated due to bankrupticies and they won't be able to do anything about it. The cleaning lady who cleans the mall will be out of a job. The gardner and the landscaping company will also lose out on the deal.

Car loans are gone (at least for now). Your brother in law who sells Fords will be out of a job as will many of the mechanics who work for the local dealership.

Tax revenues will fall even more. No tax revenue means no money for schools, roads, pensions, parks, etc. Local municipalities won't be able to raise taxes either. People will be laid off as there will be no other option.

This cycle will go on and on and on. It may get very ugly indeed out there. Forget your retirement portfolio. I am too young to retire, thank goodness.

I too am amazed at the seemingly educated, intelligent people that just don't seem to get that this will effect EVERYONE and EVERYTHING except for possibly the insanely wealthy if something is not done.

No one is going to be buying horses and the owners that can't afford to feed them now have no recourse. What do you think is going to happen when more people lose their jobs because companies cannot afford to make payroll? If it's between feeding your horse or your family, which do you think should win?

Wake up people and pull your head out of the clouds. I don't like Bush either, but this problem in no way lies solely on his shoulders. This was put in motion LONG before he came along. And for those of you saying to let the people who can't pay their mortgages flop, well that's a great sentiment, but every house that is foreclosed on negatively impacts someone else and their home value. Many luxuries are going to be a thing of the past and horses will be on that list.

I work for a very good company that has done millions and millions of dollars of business nationally for years and has excellent credit. We cannot get financing right now for projects--no one can. Consequently, I'm trying to come up with ideas of cheap places to move the horses when the inevitable happens.

Don't stick your head in the sand and think it can't happen to you...

[greysandbays]

Greys and bays, do you have health insurance? Just curious - don't see how you could live on 16k a year and pay property taxes as well as health insurance, plus keep horses, unless you qualify for Medicare.

My state has a health "insurance" thing for those referred to as "the working poor" who aren't poor enough to qualify for Medicade. Premiums are ridiculously low, and I really think mine should probably be two/three times higher. I've only had it for the last year and a half, after being hospitalized with a life-threatening but apparently easily managable condition.

Property taxes aren't all that high around here unless you have commercial property, lakeshore, or a really fancy place. Mine are less than $500 a year.

[sketcher]

He was saying that part of the reason the bailout flopped today is that there is more trouble on the horizon that will need to be taken care of, in the form of bad credit card debt. Evidently there is about one trillion dollars of it getting ready to be the next bomb, with about one third of it ..... Congress doesn't want to spend all of its ammunition in one war, so to speak, by propping up the banks, in preparation for the credit card debt bomb that is looming ahead.


I will personally claw the eyes out of any politician who votes to give CC companies a bail out of any type. I can't think of a business sector who would be more deserved of failure.

[grandprixjump]

I will personally claw the eyes out of any politician who votes to give CC companies a bail out of any type. I can't think of a business sector who would be more deserved of failure.

Attorneys would win in my book hands down, They grease the wheels to get laws passed, drugs to the market, etc, then when it blows up in their faces as a bad thing, they take the, KIND OF, side of ordinary people, sue the company that has the product, and if they win, keep a large portion of what they win in court...

[inca]

We are building a house - a little scary. I am preparing myself for the fact we may own two houses (and a total of 51 acres) next spring when the new house is done. Not sure what the housing market will be like then. It's not bad here yet but we are bound to get majorly affected at some point. Thank heavens the new house will be paid for so there won't be an additional mortgage payment. Just have to worry about paying 2 property taxes, which around here are quite high.

I only work part-time and my hours have been cut in half. I will probably not have a job by the end of the year. My hubby is a tenured college prof so his job is pretty secure. He makes additional money serving on the Board of Directors of a public company. Hopefully that will continue because that is extra money that we are planning on saving once the house is completed.

I am certainly wishing I did not have SIX horses at this time. Would love to be down to 3. But, I have no hope of getting the 2 that are for sale (and the 3rd one I would sell if I needed to) sold in this economy. One is on loan to a friend right now and I hope she keeps her indefinitely. I drive 92 miles round trip every week for my lesson - that may have to be cut to every other week soon. I was planning on sending my youngster back to training for 30-60 days in the spring to get her going w/t/c under saddle but I don't think I will be able to afford it. Hope to do it on my own with just some occasional help from a local trainer. (She may be a 4 year old that just walks and trots under saddle, no canter - LOL.)

[philosoraptor]

The horse market is already in the toilet for the low to mid priced horses. I can only hope people stop breeding for a few years. We don't need any more low to mid priced horses!

The really high end horses cater to the wealthy people, and most weathly manage to weather good or bad markets. Don't forget that a bear market (down) is actually also a chance to make money -- it's a good time to buy if you think the market has bottomed out. I know of a few people who are not only not bothered, but they see this as an opportunity.

Overall a national rescue plan effects *everyone* because it represents a big addtion to the tax liability of this country. In other words we'll be paying for it, if not this year in future years taxes. It might also stop the house of cards from falling, but some economists feel even a bailout won't stop it. Maybe some of these poorly run, oversized businesses should close? Who knows? I've been watching C-Span and even our elected officials can't agree on anything.

What's happening right now doesn't affect me as much as some. I don't need to buy or sell a house. I don't need to refinance. And my retirement account will have many years to regain value before I need to cash it in. However, my parents who are just starting to retire are having to cut way back on expenses... many of their investments are stocks or mutual funds that they expected ot cash in sometime soon.

But again, it all goes back to what you make of it. A bear market can be a good thing for anyone here.... all one needs is a few bucks to invest and the selection of some good undervalued stocks.

Time will tell how bad or how long this downturn will be.

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

As long as people keep smoking and eating fast food, my job is secure.

I'm hoping I can still swing the new horse trailer I've already picked out. :( Depending upon how the finances work out, I may either get an even better deal . . . or it will be a no-go. :sigh:

Your 401K hasn't lost a thing unless you cash it out. This too shall pass, although likely not for a few years.

Yeah, 401k's are losing money, I lost over five figures this year compared to last year. But I am not retiring soon, so I am hoping that the long haul will bring it back.

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

Trouble is that your BO might not be giving any more lessons so she won't want the expense of your horse and you might not be able to find a stranger to buy or even take your horse on, even for free.

I have lost a few students this month due to finances. It will be interesting to see how many people go to Fl this winter. Not the elite but the average person who would take a 2nd mortgage or a loan on their 401k ect to do it.

[tkhawk]

Yeah it is sad for the horses. My friend just went to the auction close by and she saw a lot of horses that were just fine-absolutely nothing wrong-but people just looking to unload because they couldn't afford to feed them anymore. I just wonder how it must have been during the great depression when people were actually stuggling for food ...
Me I am single and don't have kids so I can afford to put my horses first-well my mare especially-the mustang he is growing on me but I haven't formed a bond like I have with my mare-she is more family... But I wonder if I did have kids and had to choose between them and the kids-I am sure I would choose the kids as would anybody ,but it would be heart breaking if you had to give up something you love so much because you can't afford it anymore-oh well such is life.....the ebb and flow of it.....

[Kementari]

Attorneys would win in my book hands down, They grease the wheels to get laws passed, drugs to the market, etc, then when it blows up in their faces as a bad thing, they take the, KIND OF, side of ordinary people, sue the company that has the product, and if they win, keep a large portion of what they win in court...

I'm sorry, but this is just offensive - and ignorant. :mad:

Yes, there are immoral and crooked attorneys out there, just like there are immoral and crooked people in every profession. Hell, should I start in on horse professionals? People who think it's business as usual to tell the seller the horse sold for one price, while charging the buyer a significantly higher one? There are some upstanding citizens for you. :rolleyes:

The biggest problem with your "argument," though, is that the attorneys who are helping big business are not the same people who are bringing the suits against those businesses later. You're talking about the difference between attorneys who don't even DO litigation work (and if they do, it's defense work) and personal injury litigators (otherwise known as plaintiffs' attorneys). Defense attorneys and plaintiffs' attorneys are very rarely one and the same - not to mention that I promise you that the patent lawyer, say, for Pfizer would be sued for malpractice (and likely disbarred) if s/he suddenly started taking on personal injury cases. They are DRAMATICALLY different fields, and your idea that these practitioners are just hopping around to do whatever kind of law is making the most money at the time is ludicrous. :dead:

And if it's so wrong to get Product A to the market, then how can it ALSO be wrong to sue when Product A starts killing people? :confused: Or is it just the notion that lawyers get paid for the their work that you find offensive? Would YOU take out loans for a hundred thousand dollars worth of education and then work for free? (Gee, THAT would help the credit crisis - everyone can start working pro bono, and screw those student loan payments!)

Sorry that this isn't horse-related nor even really thread related, but I am sick and tired of "let's blame those evil lawyers!" And yes, my mother is a defense attorney, so yes, it IS personal.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by Kementari:

The biggest problem with your "argument," though, is that the attorneys who are helping big business are not the same people who are bringing the suits against those businesses later. You're talking about the difference between attorneys who don't even DO litigation work (and if they do, it's defense work) and personal injury litigators (otherwise known as plaintiffs' attorneys). Defense attorneys and plaintiffs' attorneys are very rarely one and the same - not to mention that I promise you that the patent lawyer, say, for Pfizer would be sued for malpractice (and likely disbarred) if s/he suddenly started taking on personal injury cases. They are DRAMATICALLY different fields, and your idea that these practitioners are just hopping around to do whatever kind of law is making the most money at the time is ludicrous.

Well, I know from personal experience that there are definately some law firms (and attorneys) that are litigators (civil rico) that actually do help out big business by taking a case and then manipulating the evidence. These involve some of the biggest law firms in the nation and globally and they have been protecting the banks.

Enron could not have occured without the attorneys violating the laws that were already in place to protect the civilian public. Period.

I am not going to get into the details, but it involves big banking, and the attorneys that manipulate the system and the clients.

The defense attorneys are just available for the minor screw ups.

I am now organizing more evidence for the U.S. Attorney.

[LexInVA]

Sadly, quite a few of those attorneys are involved in the horse business. Many have leadership roles in the various organizations.

[DairyQueen2049]

I've done it.

I rented a walk in closet while I was in grad school. I walked to school and was very frugal. It's do-able. You just have to do what most Americans seem incapable of - understanding your limits and living within them. I used to eat a lot of Little Juan 10/ $1 buritoes too. (Maybe I'll need to set up an appointment later with Deltawave for those sins...)

ETA- It was priceless not having student loans when I graduated! (Tuition was paid for by the University - but all of my living expenses were out of my very small stipend and a part time lifeguarding gig.)

4M- you and me too lady. I was very frugal as a college student and worked and saved and paid my way through school too. It can be done. My poison was Ramon Noodles which I will never ever eat again. *barf*

2nd hand clothes worked fine. :yes:

Oh, and around here pop cans were worth ten cents - I picked up enough of them daily to pay for parking and/or dinner out sometimes. :yes:

It can be done.

*DQ sits with her adult bevvie and pop corn hearing the train whistle in the distance*

[armandh]

and trying to save the worst disadvantages the rest

I've been retired since 93 but the fellow who bought my company's assets borrowed big in the late 90s, moved/expanded, and went bust in the 00s. too much debt at the wrong part of the cycle.

if you do not have to sell the farm you will be OK but the over blown real-estate market will suck for a long time.
retail will suck for a while as we move from spend/pay to save/spend.

[hunt_jumpfl]

I am very nervous about this market. My 92 year old grandfather said a few months ago that he was very very nervous about the coming year - that scares me when it comes from an old business man that has lived not only through recessions but the depression.

Is this going to impact me? Of course it is - I don't think there are many people that it won't impact. It is more than what is being lost on paper. If credit stops flowing I think we will be in real trouble. I agree that the congress needs to do something - I'm not sure that the bill they turned down was it (that also scares me a bit), but I feel they have to do something at this point to keep the economy from completely crumbling into the next depression.

I wish that I could buy some chickens, cows, etc and start canning/gardening, but alas I am stuck in an apartment close to work and school. If I were to head out to land where I could have agriculture it would spike my fuel bill even more. As it is the fuel bill may be what cuts down on my riding as I currently drive over 40 miles round trip to ride. As it is I am trying to carpool whenever possible. I also lease instead of buying a horse as I can cut back easily if need be. I have also cut my expenses drastically by finally getting onto student health insurance. My insurance and drugs costs have now gone down over $500+ a month.

[TrakGeorge]

I finish Grad school in two months and am scared half to death about finding a job!!! Right now, Grad school has been paid off, but my dad still owes a bunch on my undergrad and for my siblings as well. He's a doctor, but lousy with expenses and getting things done. So things tend to snowball at him.

I am planning on moving back home and finding a job (I will settle for McDonalds at this rate, until a real one comes along) I will pay for my own gas, car insurance, (have no health insurance, but really need to do something about that) and probably chuck in $100 a month for food (My parents might not take it, but that's about what it cost me on my own)The car also needs a lot of work at 13 years and 130,000 miles. Luckily BF fixes them, so we will see what can wait and what can't. Hopefully the car will be in great shape to last a few more years (gotta love those Honda civics!)

My two horses become my problem then (less expense for my dad) so they will be my biggest problem. The old horse has piled up HUGE bills (and I don't have the heart to turn my back on him yet, (well, you know what I mean) and the mare, I will just play with and see what I can work out with the BO. Been thinking about getting a second job as well -

Only problem is I will still have to work on my animation thesis!!! Anyways, I usually make it work so we'll see, might still be pulling all nighters and eatting ramen!

[camohn]

I wasn't sure about the bailout either, but it sure sounds like something needs to be done. Unfortunately the damage won't be limited to just people with stock or people who overspent on a house. If credit dries up the way they are predicting, people will stop spending. They won't buy cars, they won't eat out, they won't drive as much and they sure as heck won't buy horses. If they stop borrowing and spending, businesses will lose money and go belly up and then people will lose their jobs - a LOT of people :(

pro bailout or not this is the way it goes down...so it WILL affect anyone that needs a loan.....not just the folks that overspent on a house or play the stock market. Mr. M is a bank officer and the bank he works for DID have to suspend all loans except to their very best long time customers with a very good reason even in the days before the bailout failure. Even if they wanted to make the loans the gov't has rules about the loan to deposit ratio that a bank is allowed to carry....and with their ratios they were not even allowed to make many more loans. (All the banks were subject to this but some banks made a lot of bad loans!). He works for a conservative bank that didn't have to personal issues that the ones with the big messes like Wachovia have but it still comes back to bite them (and therefore their customers) in the butt in the end. How this affects us is this: with the strain on the bank and my hubby being one of the higher paid bank officers I am concerned that his job will be one of the first on the chopping block if things get any worse. Fortunately we grow our own hay but we do have 13 horses and the grain is getting more expensive all the time. They don't get a lot of grain but do get some to balance their diet...thankfully we had a bumper crop of hay this summer because the horses may be seeing their grain replaced with hay if he loses his job. I work part time in health care/no fear of losing MY job but though I could go back full time (and my employer like so many in the health care industry would be HAPPY about that/we are perpetually short staffed) but even at full time I would make less than Mr. M and the mortgage on this farm does not come cheap.

[Woodland]

Sorry kids but I can not even stomach another division in the class system as the bail out would have performed. I am proud of congress for standing up and saying no to Bush's failed economic policies.

We started eight years ago with a budget surplus which instead of saving for a failing war rainy day Bush rebated :rolleyes: I told my Husband "Lets donate this to the food pantry by the time Bush is done with us(middle class) we will need the food pantry!"

Under Bush the gap between rich and poor has become the great divide. With us on one side and the Bush's Cheney's and the Lehman brothers on the other. As he desires that all of us be waiting on his children's tables and living from hand to mouth we suffer. He has made he and his kind economic kings and the rest of us - we suffer. He has made war with a sovereign state on false pretenses to bring economic wealth to himself and the Cheney's - which it has - and the rest of us suffer.

Time for some French Revolutionary War justice! Bush and Cheney have committed TREASON and I demand JUSTICE not a Bailout!!!

[monalisa]

Woodland:
This is not a "GW Bush Problem." This house of cards has been in the works for 20 years or even more. The house of cards in the US, built on too much debt has finally come crumbling down. There is much blame to go around.

I saw something last night on one of the Cable channels. Someone (not sure who he was) was saying that unfortunately, the standard of living in this country is going to go down and was comparing us to Japan in the 1990's, although they save a lot more so it will likely be a lot worse here.

We need to quit trying to save those who are living off debt in a major league way. I cringe every time I hear that "American consumers need to start spending again." That is the root of the problem. Until the spending stops and the economy corrects itself, our economy will not recover.

The horse market will certainly suffer major league. I for one, have decided to stop horse showing next year. I may do a few small shows here and there, but for the most part, I am not playing that game at least for a while. I have a horse that is in a show barn and he will either come and live with me or be leased.

[MySparrow]

Lost a student last night. Hope it's not the first of many. But I do have confidence that this will turn around. Those of us who have retirement savings in investment vehicles can only hope that our fund managers are buying while stocks are low.

[gieriscm]

Thank you monalisa - both parties (gov't and private sector, not Dem and Rep) are to blame for pushing for lowered standards used for people to get credit. In fact, today's problems were predicted nine years ago today in the NY Times: Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F9582 60)

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

In addition, banks, thrift institutions and mortgage companies have been pressing Fannie Mae to help them make more loans to so-called subprime borrowers.

...

In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.

''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''


As for the equine economy... expect fewer entries at shows, people to scale back on non-essentials for their horses, some may forego supplements, sell off stock, etc. If your favorite local tack shop was barely making it during the good times of the last few years, it will probably go out of business in the next 12-24 months. With or without the bailout, inflation is expected to increase, so look for everything else to go up as well... except your paycheck.

I'm also hoping that the low-end breeders finally decide it's just not worth it to keep breeding since nothing will really be selling, but I'm not holding my breath either.

Finally, we're coming into the holiday shopping season. It will be interesting to see how well or poorly the retailers do. IIRC someone posted that giving gift cards is a bad idea because if a vendor goes out of business the gift card is worthless. Just something to consider when buying gifts this year...

ETA: Just a thought, but without the lowered credit standards there would have been a smaller housing boom. Houses that were built would for the most part have been smaller, and on smaller lots, because people couldn't have afforded to buy McMansions. This would have left more land available for farming, riding, foxhunting, etc.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Please keep in mind that while the DJ dropped some 788 points, the PERCENTAGE was only about 7%-8%

In 1987 when it dropped some 500+ points, it was 23%. HUGE HUGE difference.

This doesn't mean there aren't problems ... but let's not start crying DEPRESSION.

My biggest worry is when the treasury secretary spoke last night about 5:00-6:00 it sounded just like he was hiding something. I wonder what they're not telling us .... (the mind boggles.)

Oh, and I'm just DYING to hear about the criminal charges being brought against Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. :) Whoops. Looks like I didn't include everyone ... this is from the Washington Post:

The FBI has already begun (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/23/AR2008092302673.html) an investigation into the subprime mortgage collapse. Investigators are looking at 26 companies, including Fannie and Freddie.

[Trakehner]

My poison was Ramon Noodles which I will never ever eat again. *barf* Oh, and around here pop cans were worth ten cents

Ramen...10 for $1, add peas and something meat from leftovers....and the weird macaroni & cheese with just the not-quite-right yellow/orange colour....ACK!! Haven't eaten them since school, never will (unless I have to).

Pop! Being an ex-Yooper, nice to hear the correct vocabulary... "pop".

[tkhawk]

Ramen...10 for $1, add peas and something meat from leftovers....and the weird macaroni & cheese with just the not-quite-right yellow/orange colour....ACK!! Haven't eaten them since school, never will (unless I have to).

Pop! Being an ex-Yooper, nice to hear the correct vocabulary... "pop".

Ah Ramen noodles-memories , memories. Remember buying a $1 pack with 100 pennies... Which is why I am not too scared-if you have been at rock bottom already, ain't much left to scare you.. The only thing I am worried about is the horsies-but long ago I realized a lot of things in life are beyond our control. Like the old saying-do your best and leave the rest to God...
No I don't think I have ever purchased a pack of Ramen after that either!!

[jse]

Sorry kids but I can not even stomach another division in the class system as the bail out would have performed. I am proud of congress for standing up and saying no to Bush's failed economic policies.

We started eight years ago with a budget surplus which instead of saving for a failing war rainy day Bush rebated :rolleyes: I told my Husband "Lets donate this to the food pantry by the time Bush is done with us(middle class) we will need the food pantry!"

Under Bush the gap between rich and poor has become the great divide. With us on one side and the Bush's Cheney's and the Lehman brothers on the other. As he desires that all of us be waiting on his children's tables and living from hand to mouth we suffer. He has made he and his kind economic kings and the rest of us - we suffer. He has made war with a sovereign state on false pretenses to bring economic wealth to himself and the Cheney's - which it has - and the rest of us suffer.

Time for some French Revolutionary War justice! Bush and Cheney have committed TREASON and I demand JUSTICE not a Bailout!!!

Oh dear goodness....

[Frank B]

...and toss out that sodium-laden flavor pack and substiture some low-sodium bouillon!

Wall Street is dead

Whether it was murder or suicide is beside the point: Wall Street as it has operated for the past 75 years has been obliterated in a matter of weeks. And witnessing this violent death in broad daylight has traumatized investors everywhere.

..."Investors hate uncertainty." Well, that's just tough. Uncertainty is all investors ever have gotten, or ever will get, from the moment barley and sesame first began trading in ancient Mesopotamia to the last trade that will ever take place on Planet Earth.

The financial future is no more uncertain now than it used to be; in fact, it's far less uncertain than it was in the summer of 2007, when the Dow shot above 14000, the future seemed bright, and utterly no one foresaw the disaster that would befall the financial system. The absolute certainty of blue skies ahead was an illusion then, and the notion that we all know that worse misery lies in store is an illusion now...
DON'T BAIL OUT NOW! (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122272238714287459.html)

[Vesper Sparrow]

Split pea and lentil soup; spaghetti carbonara made with salt pork, onions and eggs
Lived for $50 a month on that in the Yukon in the late 70s.

[Secretariat2]

I want Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank to shut up. They've "Helped" enough! I'm also pretty fed up with Obama saying "they" are working on it and call if you need me. He's a Senator and the nominal leader of his party and I want him to roll up his sleeves and DO something besides blame Bush! I admit I support McCain and I want McCain to be McCain and get angry and find a solution.

I also hope that once we get passed this, they DO find out who was responsible and tar, feather and run them out of town! I'm tired of hearing that "Wall Street" or "Congress" is to blame. Who on Wall Street? Who in Congress?

And on the $16,000 per year thing. I should have mentioned that I live in Northern VA and there is NO WAY anyone could live on it here, even on ramen noodles! I dream of moving somewhere less expensive when my husband retires but it looks as though we won't be able to sell our property for some time now.

I cancelled my SmartPak orders last night and I'm going to change my Directv package for something cheaper today. I'm looking, looking for ways to cut back - no more senior or special grain for anyone either - they are all going to have to make do with the economy stuff. I probably should have done this ages ago. I hate having debt and in this environment it worries me even more.

[magnolia73]

I include this only to provide an example of how damn hard you can squeeze a nickle if you decide you must. Most people wait too long to decide they must.


:)

My mom calls it living poor. I call it "LENTIL NIGHT". People are still wandering around with $4.00 coffee and $8.00 sandwiches. I started eating poor a year ago. Cut my grocery bill 25% at a time when groceries are going up.

Bottom line- too many people live off credit. And it is SO EASY to get sucked into the trap. Have something nice today, make payments for the next 20 years. Things will work out. But I am afraid horses are such a luxury that many will not be able to hold on and I think the expense of land and hay and grain will make horseownership rarer. That was coming anyway- stock market crash or not.

[Auventera Two]

The really assinine thing about this whole "bailout" plan is WHAT happens if and when these financial institutions are rescued??? They go right back to dishing out insane lines of credit to people who can't afford it, that's what. THEN we end up with even higher credit spending on more loans that people STILL can't afford.

This problem happened because idiots who makes 35K a year go out and run up 15K on credit cards, buy a 350K house, pick up a few 25K vehicles, then gee, somehow has to actually PAY for this crap. When you have financial institutions acting as enablers, what do you think the outcome will be? I believe we're seeing that right now.

So then Bush cries out to Congress, and to the nation to act fast and rescue these financial institutions?! I don't think so. How about putting that 700 billion directly in the pockets of Americans? How about writing us each a check for $500,000 instead of the - what - $600 bucks we got last year?? The money must go to Main Street - not Wallstreet.

You have corporate executives taking gross advantage of the 20/20 system. (Work 20 days - get $20 million.) Instead of slapping them upside the head with hard consequences for their delinquent decisions and actions, we have a president who wants to continue their salaries, uninterrupted, and subsidize any future stupid decisions they might wish to enact upon. Hu? Where's the disconnect here???

I used to work with a guy who bragged about his $40,000 credit card bills. Yes - FORTY thousand dollars. What I'd like to know is how he got 40K in available credit on these cards? Somebody, somewhere decided to issue him this credit and he decided to take it. It is the financial institutions and credit card companies who have wounded this country, and now we have our own President calling for yet MORE money to pour into the system to rescue them?! If leadership powders the butts and wipes the noses of the dummies who can't figure out their own debt to income ratio, then HOW will this ever resolve?! It won't.

As always - with Bush the poor get pooer and the rich inherit the earth.

YES, something needs to be done - but NOT this. I am GLAD Congress struck it down. Passing that bill would have catapaulted us into a downward spiral of never ending debt and the inability to pay.

My last words on the subject - Money always climbs UP, but it never trickles down. Think about it, and think about WHO needs this money the most. Think about who needs to learn the lessons, and what it will take to drive the lesson home.

[SUECLOUDY]

Woodland:
This is not a "GW Bush Problem." This house of cards has been in the works for 20 years or even more. The house of cards in the US, built on too much debt has finally come crumbling down. There is much blame to go around.

I saw something last night on one of the Cable channels. Someone (not sure who he was) was saying that unfortunately, the standard of living in this country is going to go down and was comparing us to Japan in the 1990's, although they save a lot more so it will likely be a lot worse here.

We need to quit trying to save those who are living off debt in a major league way. I cringe every time I hear that "American consumers need to start spending again." That is the root of the problem. Until the spending stops and the economy corrects itself, our economy will not recover.

The horse market will certainly suffer major league. I for one, have decided to stop horse showing next year. I may do a few small shows here and there, but for the most part, I am not playing that game at least for a while. I have a horse that is in a show barn and he will either come and live with me or be leased.

100% agree with you. This has been coming a long time. The American people have not learned from History. There have been many bail outs during the course of this country, starting back during 1970 with Penn Central Railroad for 3.2 Billion, Franklin National Bank, 1974, 7.7 Billion, New York City 1975, for 9.9 Billion, Chrysler 1980, 3.9 Billion, and the Savings and Loan bail out in 1989, for 293 Billion. Those numbers are in Today's Dollars.
I am very angry that people are now looking for a scape goat when all they have to do is to look in the mirror.
People today do not want to live on today Income. Except for large purchases such as houses or autos we should not be living on tomorrows income as we do not know what tomorrow will bring.
My last trainer took out personal loans to buy her personal horse. This horse was not used in her business for lessons rather for herself. I would not feel right about putting myself (and my husband) in debt for a luxury (which is what I consider owning a horse to be).
My two elderly horses will be well cared for and I will sacrifice for them. Sacrifice is a word not many people in the U.S. are willing to do in order to have something. Horse ownership is a responsibility. I would love to go out now and buy a horse to replace Cloudy (who I lost 4 weeks ago), but realistically I have to wait. My two elderly horses cannot be ridden and I want to buy a horse to ride now but I will wait. Again it is responsibility and choices we make that has gotten us into this mess and we will have to suffer the consequences.
I will be very angry if the next bail out is Credit Cards, as that is just peoples stupid choices if they used the cards for things that they Wanted because everyone else had it.
I am tired of bailing out people, businesses, and the government when they are fiscally stupid.

[monalisa]

The issue is the credit markets. The stock market dropping 777 points is a symptom not the problem. Banks can't get credit, they won't issue credit, the entire economy will ultimately collapse. That is the real immediate problem here. The stimulus plan was to get the credit markets functioning again. Right now, they are barely functioning. This is what happened during the Great Depression and what ulitmately lead to 25% of the banks in the US shutting down.

It is like a car that needs gas to run and the gas supply is going away.

If the credit markets seize up, then we are all in for problems. Many banks will certainly collapse. Those that can't lend money can't make money. And if depositors start pulling their money out, read a bank run, then they have zero money to use. That is what happened to Lehman Brothers. They had no deposits since they are not a "bank" and no one would lend them money (greatly oversimplified). They had no other option but to fail.

[sid]

There is a very interesting 11 minute video called "Burning Down the House" at www.americanthinker.com that explains very clearly -- from a factual, historical perspective -- why we're in this mess now. Well worth taking the time to view it, regardless of your political persuasion.

Surely, many people (including horse businesses) will feel the pinch of tightened credit. But personally I'm glad that bill failed. It was written in haste, with not enough explanation to the public -- nor with taking full responsibility for their role in what has happened.

Frankly, credit SHOULD be tightened up. After all, it was the home mortage crisis -- caused by the 1995 Clinton Administration MANDATE that forced banks to make loans more "affordable" for everyone -- i.e. no cash down, subprime rates, giving credit beyond a borrower's means --that is the root cause of why we're in this position now. You don't hear anyone talking much about that.

It was a feel-good mandate that had good intentions, but had no safeguards for abuse. THAT's what Congress needs to address, not throw more money at the problem, without fixing the laws they enacted that caused this mess. And quick-fix it on the backs of taxpayers.

In the meantime bigger banks who are financially more stable as well solid investment firms will gobble up others who got themselves in trouble with bad loans, and it will flesh itself out. JMHO

[DairyQueen2049]

Ramen...10 for $1, add peas and something meat from leftovers....and the weird macaroni & cheese with just the not-quite-right yellow/orange colour....ACK!! Haven't eaten them since school, never will (unless I have to).

Pop! Being an ex-Yooper, nice to hear the correct vocabulary... "pop".

*DQ the Troll <---(Yooper reference only there kids!!) waves at T and continues munching popcorn.* :yes: :yes:

[DairyQueen2049]

Ah Ramen noodles-memories , memories. Remember buying a $1 pack with 100 pennies... Which is why I am not too scared-if you have been at rock bottom already, ain't much left to scare you.. The only thing I am worried about is the horsies-but long ago I realized a lot of things in life are beyond our control. Like the old saying-do your best and leave the rest to God...
No I don't think I have ever purchased a pack of Ramen after that either!!


Hmmmm wonder if all that will change for both of us now tkhawk? I would share my Ramon's with you so you will not starve. And we can sneek our horses to any grass we can find.....

I like this "do your best" quote!!

*Mmmm - popcorn needs more salt!!*

[monalisa]

SueCloudy:
I totally agree.

I don't buy anything I don't have the money to buy. I have quit spending on anything that I don't absolutely need. If I see something I ask myself, "do I really NEED this?" Almost always the answer is no.

I have one more horse show that has been planned for many months, so I am not backing out of it now. But that is it for me. I wanted to do a few more, but reluctantly said no.

My horses are my one expenditure and I will certainly have to sacrifice to keep them. My parents grew up in the Depression and my new goal is to adopt their very frugal spending habits. Not a bad habit to have. But I agree, we all need do with less.

[SuperSTB]

Thank you- it's not quite depression. There are still some very sound companies out and those companies have started to pick up the slack a bit.

The financial markets are creative- always angling for the next big dollar. This might be a good thing actually. Look at where investors are putting their money.

This cannot be blamed on one party or one president. Much as I'd love to pin anything on GWB. It's about a market long overdue for correction.

But alas the poor and middle class will suffer the most for the meantime- but we'll be all the stronger for it. I picked up chickens early this year after going to the store and paying prices of $4 per dozen. I nearly flipped out. Luckily we're still surrounded by enough dairies that milk is about $2.50 per gallon. I can crow veggies year round and I planted some fruit trees too last fall. Things I planned on doing anyway but not because of fears of the economy. It's a matter of principle for me and a strive to better living.

AND I'll say it again... DOLLAR STORE! ahhhhhhhhh!!!! It is my personal godsend to cleaning products and so much more. They just opened another one by me too. It is PACKED with people all the time. I pick up dry goods like rice, beans, pasta- half the price and better of the supermarket for the same brands. Some stores even have produce.

[deltawave]

Bringing this back to horses a little . . . let's all try to do our part by re-focusing on saving and economy this winter. Turn those lights off in the barn. Turn the heat down in the tack room a little bit more. Walk that 300 yards to the barn (this means you, DW) :uhoh: when it's snowy and windy, don't drive. TRAILER POOL, no excuses, if you're going somewhere. Don't leave the darn truck running for an hour for no good reason. Walk your XC course, forget the scooter or golf cart. SHOP LOCALLY.

And finally, remember that if you're a horse owner, you are by definition a whole lot better off than a lot of your neighbors on this earth. Give to your local food pantry or other charity if you can. :)

[tkhawk]

Hmmmm wonder if all that will change for both of us now tkhawk? I would share my Ramon's with you so you will not starve. And we can sneek our horses to any grass we can find.....

I like this "do your best" quote!!

*Mmmm - popcorn needs more salt!!*

Thanks now I won't have to worry about saving my change to buy Ramen in a rainy day-God after a while I hated them -their flavors -yuck....
Although I live in so CA, so no grass for the horsies-unless I sneak them to a golf course and/or lawns of empty subdivision homes every night and let them graze:lol::lol:

[KayBee]

My life, personally, will not be affected, at least in the near term. I made the decision to half-lease a horse despite the current economic climate, as a gesture of hope. (And, believe me, here in the NYC area, a half-lease ain't cheap).

But, small to medium businesses may have a rocky road ahead. Even those with good credit may have trouble getting short-term "float" loans to cover payroll or unexpected costs, even if they've had no such problems in the past. An inability to cover payroll, for example, could lead to cutting back on staff and services. Long-term, this could lead to the death of some small businesses, tough times for medium ones, and a subsequent increase in unemployment.

Individuals may see that their lines of credit (with their bank/on their credit cards) cut back. Again, this won't hurt me. I have health insurance, and a decent amount of money in savings should something catastrophic happen to me (emergency medical care) or my car. For example, I just had to have the brakes done and get new tires - cost me roughly $1000. I put in on a credit card and will pay it back on the subsequent statement. But, had I not had a credit card, I would have been able to cover the costs with what I have in the bank.

The issue with the current crisis (which I didn't understand till recently) is that it's not just a matter of the actual mortgage failures/revenue lost/properties being valued for more than they're currently worth. It's the fact that those mortgages were INSURED for large sums of money and if that insurance has to be paid out, a whole other level of the financial service sector is in deep trouble, ie, AIG, JP Morgan Chase, etc.

The reason those institutions have gone belly-up is NOT because they MADE the bad mortgages but because they INSURED them.

On the other hand, the failure of Washington Mutual and Wachovia is probably directly attributable to bad loans.

And, for those who blame this on "individuals" who "want more than they need" -- I can't say that that's not a factor. But it's also an issue of greed in the financial sector. There were outright lies and falsification of records -- it was a confidence game, essentially, but the con-men worked for reputable companies. It's no surprise that consumers got taken.

Meanwhile, this is a situation that has been a long-time building due to deregulation. Companies exist to provide maximum return to their SHAREHOLDERS. But what if short-term gain means long-term pain? Neither individuals or corporations are always especially good at enlightened self-interest.

The problem is, as in the case of the bad mortgages, people's self-interest, short-term, can lead to a nasty situation down the line for everyone. So the guy who gets a bonus for closing a mortgage is happy with the money in the bank immediately after, but may not be so thrilled now, three to five years down the line, when he doesn't have a job because either a) the company he works for has gone belly-up or b) he's been fired for wrong-doing.

Lastly, if you're able to join COSTCO, do so -- not just for the value. Join because the CEO has taken the stance that everyone employed by his company deserves to be able to afford whatever the store sells. People who work there make better than a living wage. And the CEO has basically told Wall Street to go screw itself because Wall Street would prefer that he maximize profit by paying his employees less/providing with inferior quality health insurance.

http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/articles_2004/costco_employee_benefits_walmart.html

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/business/story?id=1362779

Not many CEOs are capable of this kind of behavior, or are willing to "settle" for a $350,000 salary cap (though that's 2006 info -- it could have gone up since then).

[Secretariat2]

Turn the heat down in the tack room a little bit more.

What heat? You mean people have heated tack rooms? Sorry, but that struck me as funny. Scooter, golf cart? I'm hoping I don't have to buy a new pair of rubber boots!

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

I think I am going to throw up, I lost over $10,000 yesterday in my 401k, I am moving it to the safe fund! Over 30,000 since Jan. I feel like an idoit, Fidelity told me to ride it out.CRAP

[MSP]

Yup! It sure has affected me. Everything I have "financial" is affected, well except for my IRA which was not invested in any failing companies.

My mortgage is with a failing bank, not sure who will end up with it. My 401k is with another failing company, that could take a while to sort that one out. The kids money was partially in Wachovia... whoops all gone!

Can I recoup it all? Starting with what? I would have had more fun if I had spent my money instead of save it and invest it. Will it grow enough to help pay for college when the time comes?

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad:

Still, I say no bail out! There are other options besides saddling our children with more debt. I'll be fine, wounds will heal. No more free rides for the greedy! Stock market is already bouncing back , they can't help but buy when stocks are low!

http://www.reason.com/news/show/128972.html

http://www.reason.com/news/show/129041.html

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

Our mortgage was picked up by another bank. Your accts should be insured at the bank.

I guess we will all be working till we die. No retirement for most of us. I hate the government. They put everyone including themselves in this mess. But I agree they need to get over themselves and work together to fix this.

I will be interesting as winter closes in what happens to the horse industry.

[Chester's Mom]

Won't affect me much. My accounts are at Wachovia and will eventually (not soon, maybe a year or so) be at Citibank. C'est la vie. I worked at a financial institution that was taken over in the '80s and from what I see the management of banks & others learned less than nothing.

This has so very little to do with the government and so incredibly much to do with the greed of corporations....

We have a very well run, conservative bank (BB&T) right here in NC that is fine. They are not penalized by the gov't for not making loans...they have continued to make decisions the right way all these years and are nothing but stronger for it.

My retirement is not in stocks. Sorry, my money, I want it somewhere 'real'. Its not about having the most, its about having what I put back.

The principles are just as they always were. Don't borrow more than you can pay back. Don't buy for want, buy for real need. Learn how to calculate 'real cost' on things you finance.

[Chester's Mom]

Yup! It sure has affected me. Everything I have "financial" is affected, well except for my IRA which was not invested in any failing companies.

My mortgage is with a failing bank, not sure who will end up with it. My 401k is with another failing company, that could take a while to sort that one out. The kids money was partially in Wachovia... whoops all gone!



It'll be fine, Wachovia is not going under! They are being bought out and their assets (and part of their debt) goes to Citibank. It'll still be there.... not to worry! And the merger will take a year or so, it always does.

[SmartAlex]

I wasn't patient enough to read through all these posts yet, but I will in a minute.

I just can't understand why nobody thought the "Buy now-Pay later" mentality would not catch up with us eventually.

I am one of the fortunate who outright owns the house, the cars, the horse etc and can grow their own food. But, this will eventually affect each and every one of us even if only in a small way.

I was initially relieved that congress didn't pass that bill, but I am aware that a bailout will still occur. Do I want it? No, not really. I am hoping that by spending more time they will come up with some reasonable checks and balances to regulate these industries. But I am afraid that instead the longer they spend deliberating, the more complex and ineffectual the resulting bill will be.

[deltawave]

If I don't heat the tack room (40 degrees, not a bit more) then my water pipes will explode. :) This year I'll do 38 degrees. ;)

[AZ Native]

Check out this video of certain people defending Freddie and Fannie . If you sent a horse to a trainer and the horse came back starved and a raving lunatic, would you send the horse back to the same trainer to fix him ? :eek:
The same people who made the mess are now in charge of fixing it. The Dems have a majority. If it's such a great bill they can pass it. They are in CYA mode. Notice how the regular media, clearly in the tank for these people, won't tell us real story of these folks culpibility . This video is in THIER OWN WORDS:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL36nwCSYUM&feature=email

Shame on us for cotinuing to re elect these crooks.


More on the media from the brilliant minds at Powerlineblog.com:

Sept 29 2008


You Knew It All Along

Glenn Reynolds reproduces an email from a "reader at a major newsroom:"

Off the record, every suspicion you have about MSM being in the tank for O is true. We have a team of 4 people going thru dumpsters in Alaska and 4 in arizona. Not a single one looking into Acorn, Ayers or Freddiemae. Editor refuses to publish anything that would jeopardize election for O, and betting you dollars to donuts same is true at NYT, others. People cheer when CNN or NBC run another Palin-mocking but raising any reasonable inquiry into obama is derided or flat out ignored. The fix is in, and its working.
Sadly, it's true: it is indeed working. We live in a political system that has not yet been adequately described, but one might call it a "mediated democracy." Mediated by a self-appointed, generally ignorant but highly opinionated "elite" that is not elite by any conventional measure--income, intelligence, education, social position--but that successfully dictates the terms of political discourse even though it no longer controls (exclusively, anyway) the means of production of the news. Someday, social scientists may be able to explain this. For now, we appear to be stuck with it.

To comment on this post, go here.


Posted by John at 10:01 PM | Permalink | |

[AZ Native]

...and toss out that sodium-laden flavor pack and substiture some low-sodium bouillon!


DON'T BAIL OUT NOW! (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122272238714287459.html)


Frank B you are a breath of fresh air and a treasure ! All of your posts in this thread have been educational and rational. Thanks !

[prairiewind2]

The issue is the credit markets...

It is like a car that needs gas to run and the gas supply is going away.

If the credit markets seize up, then we are all in for problems.

Spot on! That is the crux of the matter. This mess may have begun with greed and bad mortgages, but the problem now is credit. And that will affect all of us.

We bought our first home in the early 1980s, when mortgages were running about 12%. That was then, this is now. Our incomes have not kept up with the price of homes since then, so if we had to do it over and buy our first house now at 12%, we couldn't. That is true for many (most?) middle-income people. And mortages could easily go that high again, if we don't get this mess worked out. Banks won't lend money for less than they can borrow it themselves. Has anyone looked at what bank-to-bank lending is costing today, after the bailout failure? Check it out. And if that number doesn't go down in the next couple of days, look for a whole new raft of bank failures. Then business failures. Then a huge jump in unemployment.

I wasn't happy with the bailout plan, and I don't trust Paulson as far as I can spit. But we do need to do something! Because I can see the end of the road from here, and it's really ugly. My parents and a couple of my older friends lived through the Great Depression. Their word for it? Grinding.

If we don't fix this, welcome to the new world. Yes, there will be horses. Just waaaaaaay fewer than there are now.

Liz

[Oldenburg Mom]

And the merger will take a year or so, it always does.

I think it's more like the first of the year! :) Just called as this now means I don't have to jump though fifty hoops to bank with Citi!!!

[equest]

Blah. This subject depresses me.

Florida is already in a recession and I can only see it worsening. I bought a fixer townhome in mid-2007 , reasonably priced and affordable for my income, fixed rate and big downpayment, now it is "upside down" due to the foreclosures in the area. Seemed like a rational and reasonable decision at the time. Now my house that I was once excited about feels like an albatross :(

And by most folks' standards I make a very good income - but still feel like I shouldn't be spending much. I drive a vehicle approaching 100,000 miles while coworkers are leasing BMWs and Acuras. and take my lunch to work rather than dropping $10.00 a day. I think a lot of the solid professional types like myself are backing off on non-essential spending. Until something gives with the housing situation down here, people who make good money are going to continue to feel like they should save... so the economy here is going to continue to slide.

Even the fairly well-off are not going to spend much on horse-related pursuits while feeling poorer every day due to the housing and stock markets.

[gieriscm]

I think I am going to throw up, I lost over $10,000 yesterday in my 401k, I am moving it to the safe fund! Over 30,000 since Jan. I feel like an idoit, Fidelity told me to ride it out.CRAP

DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!! You WILL lose that money if you sell those stocks/mutual funds. If you hold them they will go back up over the long term.

The time to sell is when they're high, not when they're low.

[tkhawk]

I think it should be ok unless you have more than 100k in the same account in the same bank. I am with Washington Mutual -yes the same bank that kept sending me 250k preapproved home refinance offers when I didn't have a home-hmm maybe that is why they went broke:lol:!!!
But they were worse than Wachovia-the Fed seized them and JPMorgan Chase bought them up and I checked my accts etc and it is ok-just a statement saying it is owned by Chase and are backed by a trillion dolalrs in assets or some such-like that is very comforting these days:no:.....
Day to day stuff is the same-except they expect to close a few branches....

[Auventera Two]

Bringing this back to horses a little . . . let's all try to do our part by re-focusing on saving and economy this winter. Turn those lights off in the barn. Turn the heat down in the tack room a little bit more. Walk that 300 yards to the barn (this means you, DW) :uhoh: when it's snowy and windy, don't drive. TRAILER POOL, no excuses, if you're going somewhere. Don't leave the darn truck running for an hour for no good reason. Walk your XC course, forget the scooter or golf cart. SHOP LOCALLY.

I won't harp on the bill anymore because I've said my piece. But I want to comment on this.

Good post! I agree 100%. Last year I started something new and it works GREAT. I moved my water tank inside the barn to the run-in portion. Doing this enabled me to only run the tank heater 1/2 the day instead of 24/7. If it runs all night, it is off during the day. The top skims with ice but it's thin enough they can still break it. And this is in a climate where we go weeks at a time without breaking 15 or 20 degrees. Keeping the tank out of the wind and in the barn where the horse body heat is made a HUGE difference.

Also I only run my electric fence about 1 day per week. That is just enough to remind them that fences CAN bite. Thankfully my 3 girls are very respectful of fences. This shaved at least $50 a month off my electric bill! If you can't do this, at least turn it off at night when the horses are in the barn in stalls. That still could save you 12 hours a day of electric charges!

Adjust your motion lights to only stay on for 30 seconds or 1 minute versus 3 or 4 minutes.

If you can get away from processed, mixed feeds like Purina or Nutrena, do it. Also ditch some of those supplements. Go with standard beet pulp or whole oats, which are a fraction of the cost. Get back to how people fed horses 30 years ago before all the fancy schmancy supplements and mixes came out. Most horses really DON'T need 13 different supplements every month. ;)

Instead of dumping $258 on a brand new Rambo, shop on Ebay for used ones, or alternatives at a fraction the cost. And likewise, recoup a lot of your money from tack that doesn't fit anymore by selling it on Ebay or Craigslist. I do it all the time and it's an awesome way to get money back on old tack that you no longer use. Do you reall need 29 different bits and 18 saddle pads sitting in a box collecting dust in your tack room for your 2 horses ???

I agree - DON'T LET YOUR CAR RUN FOR 45 MINUTES. Not only is this horrible for gasoline engines, but it's not necessary. Put on another coat and a hat. Diesels yes, need to warm up before driving. But only for about 5-8 minutes at most.

Drain that garden hose instead of keeping it in a heated tack room so it doesn't freeze. And why is your tack room heated anyway?! Do you really think that leather halter will be unusable if it gets cold#?! I live in one of the coldest states in this nation and I don't have any kind of heat anywhere in my barn.

Also learn to live with the thermostat set on 66 in your house instead of 72. Put on a pair of socks and sweatpants instead of lounging in your boxer shorts. Seriously, we shaved about 25% off our heating bill from the previous year! :eek: And at night we turn it down to 62. The nearly naked Weimaraner climbs in our bed when she gets cold, or she wears a sweatshirt to bed at night. We have two huge comforters on our bed.

[Auventera Two]

DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!! You WILL lose that money if you sell those stocks/mutual funds. If you hold them they will go back up over the long term.

The time to sell is when they're high, not when they're low.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[J Swan]

I think I am going to throw up, I lost over $10,000 yesterday in my 401k, I am moving it to the safe fund! Over 30,000 since Jan. I feel like an idoit, Fidelity told me to ride it out.CRAP


no no no - you've just ridden into a nest of ground bees. Just gather your reins, keep your heels down and head up, sit quietly, and ride it out. Fox and hounds are in the corn, and it's going to be a wild ride. But the fox will go to ground and you'll eventually be able to catch your breath.

(trying to use horsey metaphors in an attempt to keep this horse related);)

[Oldenburg Mom]

Showponymom ... I agree with the above. It's TIME in the market, NOT TIMING. Don't budge... this is NOT the time to move.

BTW, everyone, this is an excellent article which might help clarify some of the issues involved. I am reminded at times like this that the old chestnut, There's No free lunch, is very very appropriate. Anyway, read the article: http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?source=hptextfeature&story_id=12274112

no no no - you've just ridden into a nest of ground bees. Just gather your reins, keep your heels down and head up, sit quietly, and ride it out. Fox and hounds are in the corn, and it's going to be a wild ride. But the fox will go to ground and you'll eventually be able to catch your breath.

(trying to use horsey metaphors in an attempt to keep this horse related);)


Hehehehe. Great one, JSwan!!! Love it!

[tweeter]

What heat? You mean people have heated tack rooms? Sorry, but that struck me as funny. Scooter, golf cart? I'm hoping I don't have to buy a new pair of rubber boots!

Heat? I haven't put the heat on in the house in like 5 years. We use fireplace (it has an insert) and that does a good job on the downstairs. My bedroom is upstairs, just use an electric blankie to warm up the bed, and then turn it off.

This year we had a lot of dead trees (drought last year did them in), so they've been cut down, mostly cut and stacked. New trees coming up to replace them....

[Secretariat2]

I agree with this guy:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWVkNmRkMjU0YTlhYmI0MjEyYTk3NGQ0ZmI2MGY0ZjU=

[J Swan]

Well, I did go hunting this morning. And there were ground bees. We hit them twice. And it was a wild ride.

Very similar to the market troubles. Swarms of annoying buzzing sounds, lots of stomping and yelling, groups of people splitting up and going in different directions, and someone in the middle shouting instructions which no one listened to because there was panic.

See? Pretty much anything involving horses can be a great metaphor. :D

(it didn't actually happen that way though- it was quite boring. No biggie. Still - it's a good story)

I had been saving coffee cans because I figured they were too useful to throw away. I have stacks of them, and finally found a use for 'em.

I'm going to fill them with cash and bury them in the back yard.

:cool:

Showponymom ... I agree with the above. It's TIME in the market, NOT TIMING. Don't budge... this is NOT the time to move.

BTW, everyone, this is an excellent article which might help clarify some of the issues involved. I am reminded at times like this that the old chestnut, There's No free lunch, is very very appropriate. Anyway, read the article: http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?source=hptextfeature&story_id=12274112




Hehehehe. Great one, JSwan!!! Love it!

[Chester's Mom]

I had been saving coffee cans because I figured they were too useful to throw away. I have stacks of them, and finally found a use for 'em.

I'm going to fill them with cash and bury them in the back yard.

:cool:


:lol: J Swan will you bury them in my back yard please, LOL??

[Chester's Mom]

I think it's more like the first of the year! :) Just called as this now means I don't have to jump though fifty hoops to bank with Citi!!!


Sorry, just quoting our local analysts.....I'm in Winston Salem so Wachovia is big, big news (and a big employer) so folks are VERY into how the changeover timing will fall....

From 9/30/08 WS Journal "Analysts said that the city is likely to lose at least 25 percent, or 5,000, of its Wachovia banking work force as part of an integration that may take until the end of 2010 to complete."

In the interest of full disclosure, the city quoted is Charlotte but we still have sizeable workforce that commutes from here daily or weekly.....

And to get into horsey info.....

We got a rain barrel this weekend! Anyone use one around the farm? I'm thinking cost savings on our water bill.... (i'll start a new thread too)

[Vesper Sparrow]

Love the ground bee analogy. If only I knew what they were...:lol:

Somehow, and maybe this is a huge corporate-government conspiracy or just the way things worked out, I think the sub-prime loan thing is related to globalization and the manufacturing sector being shifted offshore to China and the like. We had to do something to keep the economy going, so let's give people cheap credit so we build more houses, which in turn creates jobs and gets more Home Depots built... The U.S. economy is largely service related.

[AZ Native]

I agree with this guy:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWVkNmRkMjU0YTlhYmI0MjEyYTk3NGQ0ZmI2MGY0ZjU=

Anything Victor Davis Hanson writes is worth reading. I wonder if he's a horseman ? ;) I know he is a Stanford Fellow and a farmer.

[cordial]

I finish Grad school in two months and am scared half to death about finding a job!!! Right now, Grad school has been paid off, but my dad still owes a bunch on my undergrad and for my siblings as well. He's a doctor, but lousy with expenses and getting things done. So things tend to snowball at him.

I am planning on moving back home and finding a job (I will settle for McDonalds at this rate, until a real one comes along) I will pay for my own gas, car insurance, (have no health insurance, but really need to do something about that) and probably chuck in $100 a month for food (My parents might not take it, but that's about what it cost me on my own)The car also needs a lot of work at 13 years and 130,000 miles. Luckily BF fixes them, so we will see what can wait and what can't. Hopefully the car will be in great shape to last a few more years (gotta love those Honda civics!)

My two horses become my problem then (less expense for my dad) so they will be my biggest problem. The old horse has piled up HUGE bills (and I don't have the heart to turn my back on him yet, (well, you know what I mean) and the mare, I will just play with and see what I can work out with the BO. Been thinking about getting a second job as well -

Only problem is I will still have to work on my animation thesis!!! Anyways, I usually make it work so we'll see, might still be pulling all nighters and eatting ramen!

Hi, trak-george,
I hope George is feeling better. Will be glad to see you in November.
We did great at the Big Celebration...five classes and five good ribbons....not bad for a "yankee"
See you soon,
coridal

[Oldenburg Mom]

I'm in Winston Salem so Wachovia is big, big news (and a big employer) so folks are VERY into how the changeover timing will fall....

Just an FYI if you know anyone that works for them ... I worked for Citigroup for 13 years. They KNOW how to take care of their employees, at least I have no complaints. No no no I surely don't. When my area was sold to Legg Mason (ugh) I got a great package too.

So! Tell them not to worry!! :)

[Jaegermonster]

I have lost a few students this month due to finances. It will be interesting to see how many people go to Fl this winter. Not the elite but the average person who would take a 2nd mortgage or a loan on their 401k ect to do it.

and that's exactly part of the problem. If you're borrowing against your house or your 401K to go play horsey back in FL for the winter you have a screw loose.
The "have it now" mentality in our society is a big part of what has caused this mess.

[Frank B]

For all of you on Main Street who have been watching the turmoil on Wall Street for the last few weeks, Monday's shockwaves rattled even the most steadfast...

...What is a regular investor to make of it all? What about people who have money in bank accounts? Below are some answers to questions that are probably on your mind...
Click here (http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/105872/Is-Your-Money-Safe?) for answers.

[jazzrider]

There is a very interesting 11 minute video called "Burning Down the House" at www.americanthinker.com that explains very clearly -- from a factual, historical perspective -- why we're in this mess now. Well worth taking the time to view it, regardless of your political persuasion.

Surely, many people (including horse businesses) will feel the pinch of tightened credit. But personally I'm glad that bill failed. It was written in haste, with not enough explanation to the public -- nor with taking full responsibility for their role in what has happened.

Frankly, credit SHOULD be tightened up. After all, it was the home mortage crisis -- caused by the 1995 Clinton Administration MANDATE that forced banks to make loans more "affordable" for everyone -- i.e. no cash down, subprime rates, giving credit beyond a borrower's means --that is the root cause of why we're in this position now. You don't hear anyone talking much about that.

It was a feel-good mandate that had good intentions, but had no safeguards for abuse. THAT's what Congress needs to address, not throw more money at the problem, without fixing the laws they enacted that caused this mess. And quick-fix it on the backs of taxpayers.

In the meantime bigger banks who are financially more stable as well solid investment firms will gobble up others who got themselves in trouble with bad loans, and it will flesh itself out. JMHO

Thanks for the video link. Well said!

[texang73]

Life will go on, including the horse economy. People will no longer be able to finance homes they can't afford with bad credit on adjustable rate mortagages so they can afford the payments (at least until the loan adjusts) and finance 100%, or worse more than 100%. Ditto with cars and other things. People with good credit and reasonable down payments will still be able to buy homes, cars, etc. People are still going to horse shows, buying and selling horses, boarding, buying tack, etc. Of course some people have cut back but it isn't like this would be the first down economy we've ever experienced in this country, or even the worst one.

Agreed. Though with this Wall Street mess, I am not happy watching my IRA quickly deplete... :no:

[Frank B]

I think I am going to throw up, I lost over $10,000 yesterday in my 401k, I am moving it to the safe fund! Over 30,000 since Jan. I feel like an idoit, Fidelity told me to ride it out.CRAP
BAD MOVE!!! DON'T DO IT!!! Unless you're planning on retiring in the next few years, consider doing just the opposite, moving some from the "safe" portions into equities. You haven't "lost" that money unless you cash out.

At the least, you should be allocating a significant portion of your current contributions into the equities.

The best money you could spend right now (or any time) would be to subscribe to a personal finance magazine (such as Kiplinger's (http://www.kiplinger.com/) ), read it thoroughly, and follow their plans of action. Most cost about the same as a horse magazine, and some are even less. Their websites contain a plethora of advice and even calculators to help in making financial decisions. It's not just about money, but adopting a lifestyle that maximizes your pleasure/cost ratio.

[Sakura]

On a lighter note...

If you purchased $1,000 of Delta Airlines stock one year ago, you
would have $49 left;

With Fannie Mae, you would have $2.50 left of the original $1,000;

With AIG, you would have less than $15 left;

BUT, if you purchased $1,000 worth of BEER one year ago, drunk all of
the beer, then turned in the cans of aluminum for a REFUND, you would
have $214 in CASH.

Based on the above, the best current investment advice is to drink
heavily and recycle. It is called the 401-Keg.

[tkhawk]

On a lighter note...

If you purchased $1,000 of Delta Airlines stock one year ago, you
would have $49 left;

With Fannie Mae, you would have $2.50 left of the original $1,000;

With AIG, you would have less than $15 left;

BUT, if you purchased $1,000 worth of BEER one year ago, drunk all of
the beer, then turned in the cans of aluminum for a REFUND, you would
have $214 in CASH.

Based on the above, the best current investment advice is to drink
heavily and recycle. It is called the 401-Keg.


:lol::lol:
Today the market is up 400pts-this is just horrible-you can't buy an dyou can't short either:mad:!! The market is behaving like a bucking bronc!!!

[deltawave]

Just hang on and keep kicking, I guess. I'm not touching ANYTHING, no way, no how. Glad the hay is paid for and stored--it always makes me feel like I'm ready to hunker down and endure. :p

[philosoraptor]

BUT, if you purchased $1,000 worth of BEER one year ago, drunk all of the beer, then turned in the cans of aluminum for a REFUND, you would have $214 in CASH.

Dear Financial Adviser,

I followed your advice, and it's true: I made $214!

However, now that I am sober, I realized that while I was drunk, I hooked up with a really skanky guy. He spent my $214 on pizza and pay-per-view adult movies. Now he won't leave, and he keeps farting and stealing the tv remote.

Can I write this off as a loss on my balance sheet as a bad investment? Or should I wait for the government bailout package to rescue me?

[equinelaw]

On a lighter note...

If you purchased $1,000 of Delta Airlines stock one year ago, you
would have $49 left;

With Fannie Mae, you would have $2.50 left of the original $1,000;

With AIG, you would have less than $15 left;

BUT, if you purchased $1,000 worth of BEER one year ago, drunk all of
the beer, then turned in the cans of aluminum for a REFUND, you would
have $214 in CASH.

Based on the above, the best current investment advice is to drink
heavily and recycle. It is called the 401-Keg.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[MSP]

Herd mentality rules!!!! :lol: See just like handling the herd!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080930/lf_nm_life/us_financial_psychology

Herd mentality rules in financial crisis

By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Herd mentality rules during a financial crisis because people are wired to follow the crowd when times are uncertain, experts say.

Brain and behavior studies clearly show that when information is scarce and threats seem imminent, people often stop listening to their own logic and look to see what others are doing.

Just run up a tree and wait until the stampede is over!

[MissintheSouth]

I am not touching my 401(k) - as a yound working adult, I won't need it for MANY years and it will recover in time. I don't have enough savings to have anything in the stock market, and 2 years ago I made the decision to "invest" my savings pool in the housing market and buy a townhouse in South FL thinking it would have a faster return than the market. Big mistake. But I was smart enough not to have a floating rate mortgage and although my home value has fallen off a cliff it seems, I did put money down and didn't buy more than I could afford. So now I won't be moving anytime soon, but at least I won't be driven into debt by my motgage.

My mind absolutely REELS at the offers we got from mortgage lenders though! My God, we were approved (before ever having to proove any income at all) for 2x what we purchased for, and were encouraged to borrow way more than we did! I remember at the time thinking that buying our house was easier than buying our last car! I remember our real estate agent and lender both (seperately) telling us to borrow $20k more than the house was sold for so we could do any renovations and cover "moving costs" b/c that money would double in a year! We were told that we were "risk averse" because we opted to buy for less than what we were approved for and to use our own money to rennovate.

I am not showing as much this year, and will keep my eyes on the costs, but I have savings enough for the emergencies, and other than grad school loans and the house (both of which seem huge right now but are not unpayable amounts) we don't have any debt.

[Chief2]

Sakura and MayS, you have made my day!
Thanks! :D

[SUECLOUDY]

On a lighter note...

If you purchased $1,000 of Delta Airlines stock one year ago, you
would have $49 left;

With Fannie Mae, you would have $2.50 left of the original $1,000;

With AIG, you would have less than $15 left;

BUT, if you purchased $1,000 worth of BEER one year ago, drunk all of
the beer, then turned in the cans of aluminum for a REFUND, you would
have $214 in CASH.

Based on the above, the best current investment advice is to drink
heavily and recycle. It is called the 401-Keg.
That is great advice I am calling my broker now.

[yellow-horse]

well my husband retired 3 weeks ago, we rolled his 401 over into cd's, glad we did, we don't need the money now as i still work
i would be more upset if we hadn't done that
i live cheap anyway, i have a good job and minimla debt, just the mortgage, the horses are easy keeprs, i've been hanging on to my money a few years now because i saw this coming

[summerhorse]

Bye bye Retirement account. AGAIN! I'll have to die on the job. Which means I'll probably never get to have a horse again that I can ride, just pasture ornaments.

[prince and ponies]

To those who don't believe one can live on $16,000/year. Do you know anyone living on social security-a lot of them don't get that much per year. I believe there are lots of people living on that much and less. It can be and is done in our country and that is a sad thing.

Also, a comment to whoever said to feed more beet pulp--yeah, I would if I could even buy it!!!! Seems like its gone by the way side too.

JSwan, you are a hoot!!!!! I like your thinkin'!!

[Aggie4Bar]

This made me laugh: Everything We Know For Federal Bailout We Got From Nigerian E-Mail (http://townhall.com/columnists/JonSanders/2008/09/30/everything_we_know_for_federal_bailout_we_got_from _nigerian_e-mail)

[equinelaw]

The poverty level for a family of 2 is less then $16K a year. For a single person that amount does not even qualifiy you for most state and federal benefits. $16K for one is not poor enough to even be in poverty.

A minimum wage job pays less then about $11K a year.

COTH. . . . meet the poor. There are many millions of us in the US.

We have no retirement accounts or health insurance or investments.

We still feel the pinch of a bad ecomony, but we do not have as much to lose.

The very stupid among us make less then $16K and still have pets and horses. We manage.

The cost of Hay impacted me more then the current crisis, but the poorer the rich get the less hope the poor have. Rich people cut back on the services poor people provide.

I am sorry to say that the stock market crashes of 87' and 2001 were probably my fault. They both happened within 24 hours of me buying stocks. All that blaming politicians is not fair. It was me:) As soon as I am out of the stock market things go sky high again.

I opened a small solo practice in the beggining of Sept. that caters to people with disposable income. The current crisis could be my fault too.:(

Sorry!:winkgrin:

[Bluey]

---"...the poorer the rich get the less hope the poor have. Rich people cut back on the services poor people provide."---

Right, that is what I say.
Let the rich earn their millions and so I have had, in their employement, good horses and a nice barn to train them in, plus a salary I didn't have to hardly touch, room and board were included in the deals.
Then, let the miracle of compound interest make that money grow, until you have enough and the right goals to be worth spending it on.
All that is something I would not have been able to afford on my own, so I learned early not to resent others because they have the disposable income.
They spend it employing the rest of us, or buying what we make.:cool:

[sid]

Some of you guys are SO funny...true horsepeople. Always the optimists, analytical and often opinionated. Yet when the long day ends are realistic whilst keeping a great sense of humor! An inventive bunch who don't whine too much. We know we must deal with the hand we're dealt regardless if we created it or someone else did...whether it be a problem horse we want to fix or a problem government whose fix it much more problematic (grin).

Kick on!

[J Swan]

I may have to- that *!(&# rooster chased me around the yard again. He kept cutting me off and then fluffing up his neck feathers. Then when I walked away I heard the distinctive pitter patter of Angry Rooster Feet behind me.

Hasn't he heard of the famous promise of prosperity made by Herbert Hoover? "A chicken in every pot?"

Hmmm... I don't think so!

:lol: J Swan will you bury them in my back yard please, LOL??

[J Swan]

I was wondering where my brother in law had gotten off to.... sorry MayS, all sales final - no refunds or exchanges!


Dear Financial Adviser,

I followed your advice, and it's true: I made $214!

However, now that I am sober, I realized that while I was drunk, I hooked up with a really skanky guy. He spent my $214 on pizza and pay-per-view adult movies. Now he won't leave, and he keeps farting and stealing the tv remote.

Can I write this off as a loss on my balance sheet as a bad investment? Or should I wait for the government bailout package to rescue me?

[philosoraptor]

To those who don't believe one can live on $16,000/year. Do you know anyone living on social security-a lot of them don't get that much per year. I believe there are lots of people living on that much and less. It can be and is done in our country and that is a sad thing.

I am not sure what you mean. If it can be done, then why is it a sad thing? <a bit confused>



One thing I wanted to toss into the cost-of-living arguement: location. $30k a year in east-nowhere Montana will provide you with a decent life. $30k a year in Manhatten has you sleeping in cardboard boxes and shaving in the public bathroom at the public library.

We should also discuss needs vs wants. People do not "need" a case of beer, chrome car rims, or brand-name clothes -- those are "wants". In America we're so used to having everything and still wanting more that we're convinced we "need" more and more just to exist. I find it interesting that Cable TV is now in prisons and in Section 8 ["poor"] housing. Compare that to the poor of a 3rd world nations who have zero vaccinations, don't have clean water much less a bathroom, and live in mud huts.

There are also some in America who can do ok for themselves while still hovering around that "poverty" line. The Amish do well without "needing" a big-screen TV or a Lexus. Some Americans are just sick of consumerism and are just plain happy with less. Google "voluntary simplicty" for some examples. Check out Mother Earth News, which includes features on frugal families who enjoy really good lives. (I can't find their recent article but here's a 70s article (http://www.motherearthnews.com/Nature-Community/1970-01-01/Living-On-A-Modest-Income.aspx) about a family who lived on $6500 a year and still could take vacations and buy what they needed). Do we really need a 2500+ square foot house? How about all these McMansions we see. Do we really need a newer car so often? Do we need to visit the mall that often? Why do we eat out so often? Why were there so many (12mpg) SUVs on the road? And the kicker is : we do it on all credit. :eek:

A wise observer once said: Shopping is the American national pass time.

[Trevelyan96]

One good thing about all this--my mailbox is far less full of credit card offers and no-guarantee loan solicitations. :sigh:

I wish I could say the same. I get 20-30 a week becaue I have great credit. I guess what bothers me is that no one is going back to all those poor people who were convinced that they could take out a 750K interest only loan and refinance it in 2 years before the rate reset because their house would be worth more in 2 years. and offering them a reasonable fixed rate so that they can keep their house. Sure, the house isn't worth the 750K now, but I'll bet a lot of people would still pay the mortgage and ride it out if they could afford the payments. Instead, the Gov't. wants to bail out the predatory lenders.

[Killian1]

I am a Wall Stree tTrader literally living this crisis every day. I work for a very successful hedge fund and am happy to be still employed when so many of my counterparts are no longer employed with Lehman brothers, one of the oldest investment banking firms on Wall Street, recently going bankrupt, Citbank taking over Wachovia, Goldman Sachs becoming a commercial bank, Bear Stearns bought out by JPMorgan back in March, AIG bailed out by the Gov't, Fannie and Freddie gone, and Washington Mutual now also part of JP Morgan. Unfortunately the crisis is far from over and has actually already been going on for some time now.
The Bailout plan was not passed yesterday but it looks like it will eventually pass, perhaps not in it's original form, perhaps some plan B type but it will pass. The crisis has affected many European nations as well. Today Ireland unveiled a blanket guarantee for it's loans, France, Luxemborg, Belgium poured Euros into their largest bank to avoid defaults on it's loans, Russia even closed it's stock market today.
Both McCain and Obama have reaffirmed their support of the plan.
I think most people are not fully aware of the whole situation and the need for some type of rescue plan. If the banks are allowed to fail everyone loses from Wall streeet executives to mom and pop retail shops to the everyday consumer.
There is still a lot to be done. On a positive note the Dow surged 485pts higher today on a relief rally based on the assumption a plan will get passed later this week. Today and tomorrow are Jewish holidays and a plan will probably not be announced until the holidays are over. One other potential bit of good news- THE FDIC is seeking an increase in the deposit insurance limit to a level above it's current $100,000. Basically if you have $150k in the bank and it goes under you will get $100k from the FDIC but not sure if you will get the other $50k at all.
As for affecting the horse market. Most people don't borrow money to buy a horse and it is not the initial cost of a horse as we all know, that costs money, it's the upkeep. Where I reside, in South Florida, where the housing market sky rocketed faster than most regions and where so many people have defaulted on their mortages and so many houses are now in foreclosure, their is still a horse market. It is certainly slower and there are lots of good horses to be found at some great prices. Too bad I am chock full! Traiers and otehr farm equipment are almost being given away!

The world is not coming to an end. I have been on Wall Street for over 22years and yes, this is worst than the 87 crash, worse than Russian gov't defaulting on their bonds in 98 but it will get better and financial institutions will be strong (the ones that wil be left standing) and regulations will be tighter (should have been all along) and market practices will be more closely scrutinized and patrolled. We will all survive.
Good luck out there. Go ride and take your mind off of it.

[tweeter]

Thanks Killian, I enjoyed reading that, kinda makes me feel better. One favor please, on the trailers....I need a 3 horse GN, if you find a free one, let me know? :D

Seriously tho, I do think we'll pull out of this, it's just frightening to us "little people".

[Huntertwo]

I wish I could say the same. I get 20-30 a week becaue I have great credit. I guess what bothers me is that no one is going back to all those poor people who were convinced that they could take out a 750K interest only loan and refinance it in 2 years before the rate reset because their house would be worth more in 2 years. and offering them a reasonable fixed rate so that they can keep their house. Sure, the house isn't worth the 750K now, but I'll bet a lot of people would still pay the mortgage and ride it out if they could afford the payments. Instead, the Gov't. wants to bail out the predatory lenders.

The couple who bought my house about 3 years ago had an Interest only loan. :eek: Sometimes I'm tempted to drive by and see if it is for sale or worse...:no:

[misita]

This kind.

It won't affect me as much... gonna buy some goats and chickens... ride out the storm...

Ditto!!!:lol: I'm raising chickens, pigs, cows, orchard, gardens, and horses. My beautiful stallion Bravo, who I've spent a vulgar amount of money on, may find himself pulling a plow to support his mare band!:lol: I'm looking into 'No till farming'.

Anybody can live on $16,000 a year. You just get rid of everything. Rent a room, eat rice and beans, and ride a bike! No big deal. People thoughout history would love to have been so lucky.

Scale down folks, it's not the end of the World.

NO BAilout! Lets learn to live on real money. We don't need all this credit. What ever happening to businesses growing and not living day to day on credit?

[DakotaTA]

I can't vote either way. The economy is in the toilet, either way they voted. I sell on eBay to try to supplement my income and my sales are dismal. My prices are about what I pay for the item plus my fees, so I'm practically giving stuff away, and it still sits there unsold.

My farm is days away from foreclosure and the bankruptcy petition is awaiting my signature. I also do medical transcription and the hospital I type for just cut off the company I work for and is having their in-house hourly employees do the transcription to save money. If I don't type, I don't make money as I'm paid on production. DH is 3 years out from a social security disability claim with no hearing in sight. He is truly disabled and our lawyer says he'll win, which will be a very large check for the back payments, but in the meantime we're going to end up living under a bridge. Or with my MIL. I'll take the bridge, thanks.

The only good thing is my farrier has volunteered to take my 3 old horses if push comes to shove. I don't know where the 4 cats are going to end up. And I wonder why I can't sleep at night.

[tkhawk]

I can't vote either way. The economy is in the toilet, either way they voted. I sell on eBay to try to supplement my income and my sales are dismal. My prices are about what I pay for the item plus my fees, so I'm practically giving stuff away, and it still sits there unsold.

My farm is days away from foreclosure and the bankruptcy petition is awaiting my signature. I also do medical transcription and the hospital I type for just cut off the company I work for and is having their in-house hourly employees do the transcription to save money. If I don't type, I don't make money as I'm paid on production. DH is 3 years out from a social security disability claim with no hearing in sight. He is truly disabled and our lawyer says he'll win, which will be a very large check for the back payments, but in the meantime we're going to end up living under a bridge. Or with my MIL. I'll take the bridge, thanks.

The only good thing is my farrier has volunteered to take my 3 old horses if push comes to shove. I don't know where the 4 cats are going to end up. And I wonder why I can't sleep at night.

So sorry about your situation. I can't imagine what you are going through. When I came close to your situation, I owned my car outright and no house, no pets/dependents-so just myself and my hunger and waiting for my visa to come through so couldn't work even if I wanted to. Hope it works out-at least the horses have a place to go and you don't have to worry about somebody seizing and selling them at auction. Sending you good wishes and some jingles and hope it works out.

I work in a big corporation and have seen the most heartless decisions. The problem is that in all these free market principles, people are just numbers. Nobody takes in account the feelings of people, their lives etc. How a financial decision can affect lives. Just the bottom line. Change, change and you can grow. Well I think the bailout should go ahead-if only to shore up our financial systems, but just amazing that all these folks suddenly behave like the folks on welfare that they once derided.. Suddenly change and innovation is not enough and it not "your" fault if you dd not adapt to the new way of doing things. It is ok to ask the government for help and you are not a fossil dinosaur from the past who is responsible for their own predicament because you didn't change and adapt to the new. Ironically people and banks who were more conservative and stuck somewhat to the "old" ways are actually somewhat ok barring some other unfortunate set of events.
Capitalism is fine-but there should be a balance- anything in excess not good. This kind of anything goes, doesn't matter how anything goes as long as I make my money and if I have to lay off the entire company and open a plant in China so be it-at some point is going to bite us back. Nowadays every type of job is being offshored and except retail-not much is going to be left. It is one thing to offshore to European countries which have few barriers tot rade, but China and india have massive barriers -unless you open up plants over there. We had the same thing with Enron in CA, the price of electricty shot up and we had a supply problem-turns out we did not-it wa sjust afew companies manipulating the market-once exposed they went bankrupt. Almost everything seems to be taking the smae path. real estate -all that talk about supply and now down the toilet. Just wondering if oil is next-I was reading somewhere that the share of speculators who buy and sell oil without taking physical delivery has shot up double or triple -as did the price. Of course it was supply-China or India-but if supply was that tight how did the price crash from 149 to 92 in a few months? I just think the last few years, the governemnt did not have any regulations at all -nothing wrong -that seems to be their belief and they have stated it openly . But you know every place where this has happened it has led to utter chaos. We need trade and speculation too, but the government needs to step in when it starts affecting the general population is starting to get affected-they need to clamp down. It is a fine line-regulating while at the same time not stifling free trade and innovation-but that is why those people have all those degrees and get paid such good salaries and pensions to boot-nt to jsut walk away and expect the amrket to sort itself out..
But again just sad for the horses-the last two months here have been particularly bad. I am seeing unwanted horses at dirt cheap prices and they have no defect-no problems-papered, good experienced horses -just nobody can afford them anymore...

[Blueshadow]

If only the Fed and government had used 700 billion to buy stocks yesterday, rather than planning to buy a bunch of bad assets, they could have made a nice capital gain today for struggling American citizens. But then, if they'd planned to buy stocks, rather than bad assets, the measure might have passed - and then the market would not have crashed. And if the measure had failed, the market might have crashed more - because a better plan would have been rejected.

Noone knows the right answer, but the planned bailout is a bad one.

I say, let it be. It's bad, its going to be bad no matter what, and maybe a more efficient allocation of capital and credit and savings will result if you let the inefficient allocators fail.

[BelladonnaLily]

I am not sure what you mean. If it can be done, then why is it a sad thing? <a bit confused>



One thing I wanted to toss into the cost-of-living arguement: location. $30k a year in east-nowhere Montana will provide you with a decent life. $30k a year in Manhatten has you sleeping in cardboard boxes and shaving in the public bathroom at the public library.

We should also discuss needs vs wants. People do not "need" a case of beer, chrome car rims, or brand-name clothes -- those are "wants". In America we're so used to having everything and still wanting more that we're convinced we "need" more and more just to exist. I find it interesting that Cable TV is now in prisons and in Section 8 ["poor"] housing. Compare that to the poor of a 3rd world nations who have zero vaccinations, don't have clean water much less a bathroom, and live in mud huts.

There are also some in America who can do ok for themselves while still hovering around that "poverty" line. The Amish do well without "needing" a big-screen TV or a Lexus. Some Americans are just sick of consumerism and are just plain happy with less. Google "voluntary simplicty" for some examples. Check out Mother Earth News, which includes features on frugal families who enjoy really good lives. (I can't find their recent article but here's a 70s article (http://www.motherearthnews.com/Nature-Community/1970-01-01/Living-On-A-Modest-Income.aspx) about a family who lived on $6500 a year and still could take vacations and buy what they needed). Do we really need a 2500+ square foot house? How about all these McMansions we see. Do we really need a newer car so often? Do we need to visit the mall that often? Why do we eat out so often? Why were there so many (12mpg) SUVs on the road? And the kicker is : we do it on all credit. :eek:

A wise observer once said: Shopping is the American national pass time.


VERY VERY well said :yes:

I am as guilty as the rest...I buy too much of what I WANT (heck, I have horses!). I am not wealthy but have enough of what I WANT and all of what I NEED.

My grandmother lives on social security. Owns her home (built it 60+ years ago...started as a 4 room no bath no kitchen house and added on). Has everything she NEEDS. Has a modest savings/investment that she refuses to tap into to have some luxuries because she wants to leave her children something.

When I see perfectly healthy young men walking the streets talking on CELL PHONES during the day when they should be working, I do not have sympathy for how "poor" they are. Odds are they have a bed to sleep in. A TV to watch. And heat and most likely AC. They have opportunities...they CHOOSE not to take advantage of them. They walk around grumbling about how "disadvantaged" and "less fortunate" (I HATE that term) they are.

And then at the other end of the spectrum, we have the idiots that decided to go out and buy 400K homes that couldn't afford them. Keepin' up with the Joneses and all that. Sorry, no sympathy.

We are spoiled as a nation and quite honestly, as tough as it will be on me and my children, I think we all need a little lesson in the difference between wants and needs.

[Lambie Boat]

we live on more than 16K a year, but less than $20,000.

5 acres,tiny old farmhouse, 3 horses, 1 dog, ancient paid -for car.

$$ goes to mortgage, utilities, tax/insurance, food, medicine and hay

a no frills life in Oregon. eat from magnificent veggie garden and fruit trees and one big Cost-co trip per month. Member of The Compact.

3 years ago we were living large in Los Angeles. Don't miss much from the 6-digit life, except therapy once in awhile. Funny thing is, I don't seem to need a shrink anymore.......hmmmmm

[DairyQueen2049]

The poverty level for a family of 2 is less then $16K a year. For a single person that amount does not even qualifiy you for most state and federal benefits. $16K for one is not poor enough to even be in poverty.

A minimum wage job pays less then about $11K a year.

COTH. . . . meet the poor. There are many millions of us in the US.

We have no retirement accounts or health insurance or investments.

We still feel the pinch of a bad ecomony, but we do not have as much to lose.

among us make less then $16K and still have pets and horses. We manage.

The cost of Hay impacted me more then the current crisis, but the poorer the rich get the less hope the poor have. Rich people cut back on the services poor people provide.



Wow.
Thank you

[camohn]

The Amish do well without "needing" a big-screen TV or a Lexus. .

You would be amazed at how many Amish go to the neighbor's to watch football at the neighbor's big screen TV, have a car in the barn, a cellphone in the outhouse and a stereo with huge speakers in the buggy!!

[deltawave]

We have a hard time distinguishing "want" from "need" in the 21st century.

[snbess]

[QUOTE=4Martini;3549260]I've done it.

I've done it, too...though I wouldn't want to now. I was actually living on $12,000 a year my first job out of college and then through grad school. Granted, that was 12 years ago. It ends up being about $7 an hour, I think. I had an apartment in a slum lord house for $345, I walked to work, I went to dollar movies (which are now $2.50) when I needed entertainment. I didn't have a horse, but rode other people's horses. I paid my student loans and managed to save about $50 a month. It was very tight, but I did it. When I got a job paying $18,000, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Of course, now I want my 401k and retirement savings...and have a mortgage and a horse, so that wouldn't cut it. But I do have a friend living on about $12k a year in San Francisco - she rents a friend's old toolshed for living quarters. Not a great way to live.

[Secretariat2]

This really gets to me because everyone is down on consumerism and saying that doing without and scraping by is noble and we should all be doing it. Well all that consumerism provides JOBS. If we all stop buying things and live off our vegetable gardens and only buy what we need, JOBS disappear. There is no socialist utopia where everyone is equal and has what they need. The government can't make it fair and make everyone equal. People are created equal, the Founders got that right, but then life happens and the best the government can do is try to make OPPORTUNITY equal and we still do that better in the United States than in any other country.

I agree that far too many overdosed on credit - heck I'm guilty of it myself and I'm cutting back, but there is nothing wrong with trying to maintain a better lifestyle and trying to earn as much as you can. If you want a big screen TV or a big house AND you can afford it, nobody should make you feel guilty about it or say that someone living on next to nothing is a better person.

[gieriscm]

I agree that far too many overdosed on credit - heck I'm guilty of it myself and I'm cutting back, but there is nothing wrong with trying to maintain a better lifestyle and trying to earn as much as you can. If you want a big screen TV or a big house AND you can afford it, nobody should make you feel guilty about it or say that someone living on next to nothing is a better person.

Well, if we equate the economy to a horse, and relaxed lending standards as horseflies, we get the bucking stockmarket. :lol:

Having said that, while the RE market horsefly has been busy biting, there's another one out there that's been circling per the Wall Street Journal (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/bad-credit-card-debt-could-next/story.aspx?guid={DE0C0B15-4760-491C-A0F4-D34CBD96F7B7}). Hang on tight, 'cause the ride is only gonna get wilder for a while.

[prairiewind2]

but there is nothing wrong with trying to maintain a better lifestyle and trying to earn as much as you can. If you want a big screen TV or a big house AND you can afford it, nobody should make you feel guilty about it or say that someone living on next to nothing is a better person.


I may be reading things differently than you are, but I got the impression that most of the people writing about a minimal lifestyle were simply pointing out that it could be done - not that everybody who has more than minimum should put on hair shirts and whack themselves with cat-o-nine-tails. :winkgrin:

This country is built on ambition, from its very inception. It's our nature. :D

But to those who say that we should just take the hit and let the chips fall where they may - please, read a little about the Great Depression! Try to imagine yourself in that era. If we can avoid something like that, I think we'd be foolish not to! And I say that as a person who will probably fare just fine if we have one. Completely own my little home, completely own my own (very old) trucks, have a huge veggie garden with room to expand, a little land for my horses, and a little money pretty safely in Treasuries. So I could hunker down and live minimally just fine. My concern is for everyone else.

Anything like a Great Depression these days could get pretty interesting, in the manner of the old Chinese curse ;). So much of our food, clothing and other necessities is produced by other countries, quite unlike during the 1930s. And much of our debt is held by other countries as well. We are dependent on the kindness of strangers. :rolleyes:

Liz

[FalseImpression]

Quote: "Well all that consumerism provides JOBS. If we all stop buying things and live off our vegetable gardens and only buy what we need, JOBS disappear."

Except that most consumer items are made in China/India... so, no, buying those items, whether with cash or credit, is not going to keep jobs in the country! Until people realize that they are shooting themselves in the foot time and time again by purchasing "cheaper" items made off shore, the vicious circle will continue!

In Canada, we are not directly affected by the crisis, although I am sure there will be ripple effects when companies move back to the States and more Canadians become unemployed (free trade has always been a joke in my eyes - it works only one way!). Our banks are much more regulated than in the US and there are only so many. Subprime loans did not exist here.

I still wonder why anyone is anxious to take on a presidency... in any country... power appeal I suppose!

[magnolia73]

LOL, we need a new debtors prison- send all the people who overextended to Mars to mine for oil. Just like in the old days.

I read a book- the Worst Hard Times. People starved during the depression- even those with farms, due to weather calamaties. It's really quite eerie.

[Secretariat2]

I may be reading things differently than you are, but I got the impression that most of the people writing about a minimal lifestyle were simply pointing out that it could be done - not that everybody who has more than minimum should put on hair shirts and whack themselves with cat-o-nine-tails.

It is this kind of stuff I was referring to:

The Amish do well without "needing" a big-screen TV or a Lexus. Some Americans are just sick of consumerism and are just plain happy with less. Google "voluntary simplicty" for some examples. Check out Mother Earth News, which includes features on frugal families who enjoy really good lives.

and

We have a hard time distinguishing "want" from "need" in the 21st century.

"Voluntary simplicity" creates virtually no jobs. Unless you want everyone to go back to subsistance farming and a feudal system (like those people in Africa in the grass huts), we NEED consumerism. We just need to stop doing so much of it on credit.

[Secretariat2]

Quote: "Well all that consumerism provides JOBS. If we all stop buying things and live off our vegetable gardens and only buy what we need, JOBS disappear."

Except that most consumer items are made in China/India... so, no, buying those items, whether with cash or credit, is not going to keep jobs in the country! Until people realize that they are shooting themselves in the foot time and time again by purchasing "cheaper" items made off shore, the vicious circle will continue!

In Canada, we are not directly affected by the crisis, although I am sure there will be ripple effects when companies move back to the States and more Canadians become unemployed (free trade has always been a joke in my eyes - it works only one way!). Our banks are much more regulated than in the US and there are only so many. Subprime loans did not exist here.

I still wonder why anyone is anxious to take on a presidency... in any country... power appeal I suppose!

Oh brother - you are living in a dream world. If the economy of the United States fails, the entire world will suffer, just as it did during the Great Depression. How did Canada do in the 1930's? I bet it was just peachy there then.

[deltawave]

If only the Fed and government had used 700 billion to buy stocks yesterday, rather than planning to buy a bunch of bad assets, they could have made a nice capital gain todayThis kind of shell game is how we got into this mess, at least partially.

Yes, we need consumerism, but I agree we needn't have EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME and that attitude is going to kill any economy, in any era, no matter what.

Here in Michigan people are still clinging to the dream-world where you could graduate high school, immediately get a $60,000/year job with huge benefits and "job security", work your 30 years and retire before you're 50 with "the company" paying for your next 30 years of retirement. How that made sense even 30 years ago is beyond me, but it worked for a lot of people for a very long time. Those days are OVER. We as a state just haven't gotten it into our heads yet. :no:

[onthebit]

In Canada, we are not directly affected by the crisis, although I am sure there will be ripple effects when companies move back to the States and more Canadians become unemployed (free trade has always been a joke in my eyes - it works only one way!). Our banks are much more regulated than in the US and there are only so many. Subprime loans did not exist here.


In Canada you are not directly affected . . . yet. Our banking systems are quite intertwined, and you do have subprime loans in Canada. I am married to a Canadian and we visit several times a year and talk to his friends and family. I can't say I see huge differences in consumerism or the ability with poor credit to get a loan. Hubby and I are both savers and cash only, we have no debt. One of his close relatives is a different story with money. I was more than surprised that he just managed to get a mortgage and buy a house. He has debt out the wazoo and bad credit.

[FalseImpression]

Maybe I am living in a dream world, but I am not the only one apparently.
I know that people here too live beyond their means, but the subprime crisis is nowhere near like in the US. You do not go through subdivision after subdivision with foreclosure signs/for sale signs.

Yes, our economies are intertwined, but I do believe we are in a better position to weather this crisis. I know there will be ripples effects and I know our retirement funds are up and down right now (but I won't lose sleep over it, it will come back). People who live on credit in any country are their own worst enemies. You can blame the banks for being too lenient (but heck, they are in the business to make money too.. so anyone with good credit is not going to be a "good" customer).

They make no money on me (I pay my cc in full each month), I have asked them to lower my limit (which is still way more than I will ever need). I have savings in term deposits. I have no debts (house/car/cc). My kids' education is paid thanks to saving early.

Oh, I would have loved the big house with the beautiful kitchen... instead I live in a 1500 sq ft, 30 yr old house with the original kitchen. That is my only WANT which is quickly becoming a NEED.

And the crisis in 1929 was totally different from this one. We are not going into a depression, but in a recession and some countries will be more affected than others.

[Secretariat2]

And the crisis in 1929 was totally different from this one. We are not going into a depression, but in a recession and some countries will be more affected than others.

Maybe, maybe not. We'll see. But the Canadian government is one of many who are screaming at the U.S. to fix this right now: http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=846409

[tkhawk]

This kind of shell game is how we got into this mess, at least partially.

Yes, we need consumerism, but I agree we needn't have EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME and that attitude is going to kill any economy, in any era, no matter what.

Here in Michigan people are still clinging to the dream-world where you could graduate high school, immediately get a $60,000/year job with huge benefits and "job security", work your 30 years and retire before you're 50 with "the company" paying for your next 30 years of retirement. How that made sense even 30 years ago is beyond me, but it worked for a lot of people for a very long time. Those days are OVER. We as a state just haven't gotten it into our heads yet. :no:


Michigan must be really hard hit? I was reading a while ago that houses were going for 20k and 30k. Then today I came across this on Yahoo- a woman bid $1.75 and won a house on EBAY in Saginaw, MI.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081001/ap_on_fe_st/odd_cheap_home

She has to pay about 800 bucks in back taxes-but still a 1.75 ?? That is cheaper than your McDonald's meal....
How is the horse market?? I mean if the houses are going for practically free, wonder how the horse/barns/farms are??Is there anything else except the auto industry?

[FalseImpression]

well of course, he has to scream at the US, just like Brown in the UK and all the others. Don't forget we are also in an election campaign right now and the Conservative close links with the US are worrying people..

quote: "The Prime Minister stressed that Canadian banks were well capitalized, adding: "Right now, we're avoiding having to go in and be the underwriter of private financial industries."

The comments appear to reflect a shift in the Conservative campaign as the party acknowledges gathering economic headwinds, deflects blame, and indicates the government is prepared to act."

But nothing is perfect and I am sure there will be consequences here too...

[Oldenburg Mom]

But to those who say that we should just take the hit and let the chips fall where they may - please, read a little about the Great Depression!

Great advice. What's the old saying? Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Thank you George Santayana... You might want to start right here: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=59405

I don't know the publication at all, but the people quoted/discussed are 'fairly' (;))well known.

--------------------------------------

P.S. For those of you who, like me, don't remember their high-school economics class, a simple viewing of "It's a wonderful life" might remind you of what it's all about. That's GOT to be one of the most explicit descriptions of how banks work!! OR ... take a look here: http://reference.howstuffworks.com/bank-encyclopedia.htm Not trying to argumentative...I read it and thought it was very interesting!!! :)

[riverbell93]

It's kind of fascinating to see how removed people are from the reality of what happens when banks fail and major financial institutions can't cover their risk. All those people telling their congressmen to vote against the bailout... I was listening to BBC World today and they interviewed a TEACHER in the Midwest who expressed pique that all those rich people are going to get bailed out while schools are underfunded. Does she ever read the newspaper or watch the news? Should someone that out of touch with how nations and economies work even be a teacher?

[sidepasser]

It is this kind of stuff I was referring to:



and



"Voluntary simplicity" creates virtually no jobs. Unless you want everyone to go back to subsistance farming and a feudal system (like those people in Africa in the grass huts), we NEED consumerism. We just need to stop doing so much of it on credit.

Uhm well explain that to the three guys who just got laid off today from my company..been here for 10 years plus and have kids in college (all three of them do) and did the classic "buy a house, a car and put some money away"..now all are looking at what are they going to do next? Mortgage still needs to be paid, car payments made, food bought, etc. They weren't head over heels in debt..but have the type of "consumer habits" that most people do.

now they are unemployed.

There is something to be said for living frugally and simply, especially in these economic times. Unfortunately it sometimes takes a disaster to wake people up. I can honestly say that I am fortunate, out of the four people at my job..
I am the only one left. For how long, who knows? But I won't worry about losing my farm..or my truck or my horses..all are paid for. Unlike the other three who are going to have a hard time - all are older workers so finding a job may be harder in normal times, much less these times.

I can always sit in the dark in my house, eating food I grew out of jars I canned, with a candle for light. At least I will still have a house and food.

and that is why there is a growing movement to live on less than one needs to live on, and learn the difference between wants and needs. I want air conditioning, I needed a fan. I got a fan. I live in Ga. I survive just fine just like people have for hundreds of years before me. I could have a/c..but choose not to due to high utility bills and having to renovate the harn to put it in.

My horses have a misting system and fans and auto waterers. I feel they need that as it gets so hot here..and I work during the day so can't always be there to make sure they are cool enough. This year, they spent the summer outdoors and you know what..they didn't die on me and actually look great. Lots of shade, come in during real bad weather, and I've saved 60.00 a month on shavings. Simplicity can save one a lot of money.

As far as buying stuff..most STUFF is made in China/Japan/Taiwan/India. Not exactly producing record jobs here in the US for American workers. I buy made in the US if I can find it, but it has gotten harder and harder to find anything made here. I've heard it said that a country that produces no goods cannot survive in the long term.
I wonder if I will be around to find out if a country run on service industry can sustain itself.

Anyway, as far as the economy affecting me and the horses - we are ok for now, but for the long run..who knows. As long as I have some sort of health ins. I guess I'll survive most anything.

[prairiewind2]

It is this kind of stuff I was referring to:



and



"Voluntary simplicity" creates virtually no jobs. Unless you want everyone to go back to subsistance farming and a feudal system (like those people in Africa in the grass huts), we NEED consumerism. We just need to stop doing so much of it on credit.

But I didn't see the poster say she is going to run off and live simply off the land! She merely pointed out the difference between a "want" and a "need." She then provided examples of people who live simply - and encouraged folks not to borrow.

Do you disagree with her about "wants" and "needs"? If the economy goes completely in the tank, many more of us are going to have to decide between wants and needs. I need to eat; I don't need a Lexus. I need shelter over my head; I don't need a horse, unless it somehow pays for itself. Etc. Growth is built on consumerism, but consumerism is built on money, and if you ain't got any money, you ain't gonna consume. ;)

That's why I want us to do whatever we can to save the economy, rather than let it go in the crapper just to teach a few people a lesson! :D

Liz

[prairiewind2]

And the crisis in 1929 was totally different from this one. We are not going into a depression, but in a recession and some countries will be more affected than others.

In many ways, it is not different. I recommend reading "The Great Crash 1929", by John Kenneth Galbraith. You will see many eerie parallels to our current events, not the least of which is income distribution.

We are in a recession now, and it could get quite bad; we could easily go into a depression if we can't stop the slide. The Great Depression did not happen all in a day, as our history books tend to say. The stock market slid disastrously in a day, but the real depression took a couple of years to develop.

Liz

[equinelaw]

Nobody in my family owns land except for me. Now they all say if things get really bad they can all just come live with me becuase I have room to grow food and raise meat.

Nothing, in any history book or political commentary scares me as much as having 4 parents, 2 sisters and assorted BILs and nieces and nephews descend on me looking for me to save them.:)

I don't even have a garden!

Of course they are welcome and all, but if the Feds had releitives and owned farms, you think we would be in this mess?

That condo my Dad owns overlooking Rock Creek park isn't going to feed 2 people if his stocks hit the skids and his government pension stops flowing.

Horse farm owners should be afraid, very very afraid:)

[tkhawk]

Nobody in my family owns land except for me. Now they all say if things get really bad they can all just come live with me becuase I have room to grow food and raise meat.

Nothing, in any history book or political commentary scares me as much as having 4 parents, 2 sisters and assorted BILs and nieces and nephews descend on me looking for me to save them.:)

I don't even have a garden!
.

Horse farm owners should be afraid, very very afraid:)

Now that is scary-can't imagine my whole family living together:lol::lol:

[philosoraptor]

It is this kind of stuff I was referring to:



and



"Voluntary simplicity" creates virtually no jobs. Unless you want everyone to go back to subsistance farming and a feudal system (like those people in Africa in the grass huts), we NEED consumerism. We just need to stop doing so much of it on credit.

I respectfully disagree. You assume that all American jobs come from building the disposable junk that lines the shelves at Walmarts, which is not the case. The vast majority of manufactured goods your consumerism buys are imported, therefore the jobs and cash go to China or somewhere else.

For example: If I have an extra $500, if I buy a new TV, very very little of that $500 stays in my community. If instead I put the $500 in investments, it works for me, generating wealth so I don't ever have to live in the African-style grass hut. And when I need to buy groceries, I can afford take some of that cash to pay a little extra for locally grown or US-grown foods -- again keeping the money in my community or country. By buying more carefully and not spending just for the sake of spending, I'm still generating US wealth and jobs.

If I should suddenly lose my job, if I had lived addicted to consumerism, I'd have nothing but a mound of credit card debt. Live simply and you'll have cash in the bank to tide you over. And when the time comes to eventually spend that saved money, it goes more to "needs" like sending a child to college or medical care, and not to a living room full of clutter and old TVs.

[philosoraptor]

Nobody in my family owns land except for me. Now they all say if things get really bad they can all just come live with me becuase I have room to grow food and raise meat.

Nothing, in any history book or political commentary scares me as much as having 4 parents, 2 sisters and assorted BILs and nieces and nephews descend on me looking for me to save them.:)

Put up a few little prefab houses on your farm, and charge them rent. :lol:

[LexInVA]

Put up a few little prefab houses on your farm, and charge them rent. :lol:

Shantytown! :lol:

[philosoraptor]

It's kind of fascinating to see how removed people are from the reality of what happens when banks fail and major financial institutions can't cover their risk. All those people telling their congressmen to vote against the bailout... I was listening to BBC World today and they interviewed a TEACHER in the Midwest who expressed pique that all those rich people are going to get bailed out while schools are underfunded. Does she ever read the newspaper or watch the news? Should someone that out of touch with how nations and economies work even be a teacher?

How do you feel the bailout will help?

I am listening to the economists. Some flat out say that if things are crumbling putting your finger in the leaking dam isn't going to stop a flood. And in the meantime you've given $700 billion to a single government agency which does not have to report to congress, work on a budget, or follow checks-and-balances.

I am also concerned that anything they throw together will be hastily made and not well thought out. Bills normally take months go be drafted, go to committee, and go to the floor for debate. We're forcing this one through within a matter of days with barely time to read the thing much less debate it. Is that wise?

Expect to see the dollar fall quite a bit more, not just because of the Fed's plan. This affects all of us because we're so dependent on imported goods, food, and energy.

[philosoraptor]

In case anyone is interested in following this... here is an interesting update:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a9MTZEgukPLY&refer=home

Fed Pumps Further $630 Billion Into Financial System

The Federal Reserve will pump an additional $630 billion into the global financial system, flooding banks with cash to alleviate the worst banking crisis since the Great Depression.....

[Secretariat2]

I respectfully disagree. You assume that all American jobs come from building the disposable junk that lines the shelves at Walmarts, which is not the case. The vast majority of manufactured goods your consumerism buys are imported, therefore the jobs and cash go to China or somewhere else.

I don't assume anything. I never said we should buy junk from Walmart imported from China. I just said that there is nothing wrong with wanting a better lifestyle and working towards it and THEN buying what you WANT and NEED.

For example: If I have an extra $500, if I buy a new TV, very very little of that $500 stays in my community. If instead I put the $500 in investments, it works for me, generating wealth so I don't ever have to live in the African-style grass hut. And when I need to buy groceries, I can afford take some of that cash to pay a little extra for locally grown or US-grown foods -- again keeping the money in my community or country. By buying more carefully and not spending just for the sake of spending, I'm still generating US wealth and jobs.

Depends on what you are "investing" in. And by consumerism, I mean eating out locally and buying U.S. goods if possible. Consumerism doesn't just mean buying junk from China.

If I should suddenly lose my job, if I had lived addicted to consumerism, I'd have nothing but a mound of credit card debt. Live simply and you'll have cash in the bank to tide you over. And when the time comes to eventually spend that saved money, it goes more to "needs" like sending a child to college or medical care, and not to a living room full of clutter and old TVs.

Consume wisely :) Don't get addicted. Personally, I'm addicted to horses and that is where all my "extra" money goes and doesn't leave any for investments or junk from China. I just don't think praising the Amish for their wonderful lifestyle is the answer.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by MayS;

Quote:
Originally Posted by equinelaw
Nobody in my family owns land except for me. Now they all say if things get really bad they can all just come live with me becuase I have room to grow food and raise meat.

Nothing, in any history book or political commentary scares me as much as having 4 parents, 2 sisters and assorted BILs and nieces and nephews descend on me looking for me to save them.

Put up a few little prefab houses on your farm, and charge them rent.

Spoken like a true capitalist. Incorporate and sell stock.

[grandprixjump]

Imagine the biggest horse farm in your county started buying out all the other horse farms with money got from an adjoining county. Now to save money they lay off a couple workers at each farm, but have hired a board of directors to run the whole company farm. So where'd the money go that was saved, into different pockets at a higher rate. Now the adjoining county people that invested money, want to see a profit on the money they invested, so now the company farm is closing farms to save more money, and they chose to close certain ones because they weren't making as much money as they should have, boarders leaving due to lack of care (remember the layed off farm employees). After this works for one year making share holders happy, they have to raise the board at the farms they kept open, fire ALL workers to get in cheaper ones (Read Made in CHINA or other 3rd world country), that don't do as good a job, more boarders leave, close more farms, so board goes up even more, soon board is so high, they lose all boarders to the neighboring county, the value of the company farm crashes, and NOBODY has a place to keep their horses close by.

Just like most buyouts happening in all business's today, cut away the base while increasing the top to the point it breaks off. The GOVERNMENT needs to STOP all these buyouts and mergers.

[Lambie Boat]

Quote:
In Canada, we are not directly affected by the crisis, although I am sure there will be ripple effects when companies move back to the States and more Canadians become unemployed (free trade has always been a joke in my eyes - it works only one way!).



Canada will be directly affected if McCain wins, and all the Democrats try to move there. Mass exodus.

BTW, my industry moved to Canada in an effort to break the Hollywood unions and save production costs, so free trade and NAFTA really does work both ways

[equinelaw]

Put up a few little prefab houses on your farm, and charge them rent. :lol:


Some idiot didn't like small villages popping up in the neighborhood and enforced the conevenants. That idoit may have been me:) 1 home per lot.

Guess they'll have to live in the run-in sheds? The hay shed? Tents? If my Daddy had bought me that horse farm in Great Falls I wanted when I was a kid, they would have a McMansion to live in! Serves him right:)

Has anyone else been designated as plan B yet?

[SuperSTB]

Some idiot didn't like small villages popping up in the neighborhood and enforced the conevenants. That idoit may have been me:) 1 home per lot.

Guess they'll have to live in the run-in sheds? The hay shed? Tents? If my Daddy had bought me that horse farm in Great Falls I wanted when I was a kid, they would have a McMansion to live in! Serves him right:)

Has anyone else been designated as plan B yet?

No, but I have land in upstate NY. Being on the other side of the country doesn't exactly make it a quick place to flock to- all the relatives would beat me there and probably take the best spots... :lol:

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by granprixjump:

Imagine the biggest horse farm in your county started buying out all the other horse farms with money got from an adjoining county. Now to save money they lay off a couple workers at each farm, but have hired a board of directors to run the whole company farm. So where'd the money go that was saved, into different pockets at a higher rate. Now the adjoining county people that invested money, want to see a profit on the money they invested, so now the company farm is closing farms to save more money, and they chose to close certain ones because they weren't making as much money as they should have, boarders leaving due to lack of care (remember the layed off farm employees). After this works for one year making share holders happy, they have to raise the board at the farms they kept open, fire ALL workers to get in cheaper ones (Read Made in CHINA or other 3rd world country), that don't do as good a job, more boarders leave, close more farms, so board goes up even more, soon board is so high, they lose all boarders to the neighboring county, the value of the company farm crashes, and NOBODY has a place to keep their horses close by.

Just like most buyouts happening in all business's today, cut away the base while increasing the top to the point it breaks off. The GOVERNMENT needs to STOP all these buyouts and mergers.

Unfortunately, this is fairly realistic, albeit simplified.

[dizzywriter]

When I left the US to work overseas 17 years ago, there was a system in place that I learned about in law school. It was a pretty good system, not great.

I lived in and bought my first horse, in a country that was building a "market" system out of communism. I kept my horse at a private barn where most of the horses were owned by newly rich folks who bought horses as an accessory. It wasn't always pretty.

When I returned to the US last year, I was shocked. Before I left, my credit card would get rejected if I was over my limit. I never really used a credit card, ever. But while I was getting used to a debit card, I still expected to be rejected if there wasn't enough money in my account. NOT. Instead, I got charged fees for overcharging. OK, figured that out.

When I left, you had to qualify for a loan. For anything. When I came back, the newspaper delivery boy had an SUV. When I applied for a mortgage (that I could afford), I was shocked, shocked, that you could apply for one without proving income. That was so contrary to my expectations, I was again shocked. I'm a liberal, but a household fiscal conservative. YOu consume what you can pay for. Mr DZ is a cheap Conneticut Yankee and we're hoping to be free of supermarkets for produce (except a few things) by next year now that we're figuring out our garden situation. But even if the economy were better, we'd probably be doing that.

Horse economy? Now we have to pay the vet extra for gas.

I've always believed in living within means. That was easy because I lived for so many years in a country that was cheap (my maid cost $12 a visit) As far as I can see, a lot of people have not. We probably would not have bought the current horse but it was because of a tragic situation. WE can afford him. It just means that we don't go out to eat anymore. That was the trade off. Except for the mortgage, no debt. WE feel very lucky. I feel for people who didn't have our luck.

[regret]

Nobody can live on $16,000 a year. Do you pay rent? Drive a car? Eat?

Somebody is subsidizing you.


I live on about 18 thousand a year with my two kids. I own my own place and pay my own mortgage. I make sure that the kids eat really well and get food, clothes, ETC. I just cut down on the things I want/need. Rice makes a wonderful meal.

[flshgordon]

I respectfully disagree. You assume that all American jobs come from building the disposable junk that lines the shelves at Walmarts, which is not the case. The vast majority of manufactured goods your consumerism buys are imported, therefore the jobs and cash go to China or somewhere else.

For example: If I have an extra $500, if I buy a new TV, very very little of that $500 stays in my community. If instead I put the $500 in investments, it works for me, generating wealth so I don't ever have to live in the African-style grass hut. And when I need to buy groceries, I can afford take some of that cash to pay a little extra for locally grown or US-grown foods -- again keeping the money in my community or country. By buying more carefully and not spending just for the sake of spending, I'm still generating US wealth and jobs.

If I should suddenly lose my job, if I had lived addicted to consumerism, I'd have nothing but a mound of credit card debt. Live simply and you'll have cash in the bank to tide you over. And when the time comes to eventually spend that saved money, it goes more to "needs" like sending a child to college or medical care, and not to a living room full of clutter and old TVs.


Your logic here is faulty....while the money for the goods may not actually stay within the community as far as PRODUCTION, where the heck do you think people are buying things? Do you think they're going directly to China to get them? Last time I checked, people bought their TVs, appliances, VCRs, Ipods, whatever "luxury item" you want to insert here from the likes of stores in their cities and neighborhoods. Best Buy, Wal Mart, Target, the mom & pop electronic store, etc etc. Those stores in the community employ people IN the community. I think that's the point the previous poster was getting at as far as infusing spending back into the economy. It doesn't necessarily matter where the goods are made, it matters where they are sold. If no one has any money to buy anything, then no one will have jobs. We're not just talking manufacturing jobs, it's retail as well.

[Blueshadow]

Quantitatively, it comes down to what the domestic (nontraded component)value added is of an imported item. ie. what is the value of local retail and marketing services that is embedded in the final consumer price of a product. That varies enormously by good or service.

I thought that the point MayS made about the need for savings is crucial though.

The only two ways that a country engaged in trade can increase future productive capacity (and hence future income, output and wealth) is
1) through domestic savings, and 2) borrowing from abroad. Either source of funds enables domestic investment in capital. The only difference is that when we finance investment by borrowing from abroad that debt needs to be repaid to the foreign creditors.

If a country uses the borrowed funds to invest in new physical capital and hence future productive capacity, then the external debt with interest can be repaid with the higher future output that it generates (provided that the growth rate of domestic output exceeds the interest rate on externally borrowed funds). If a country uses the borrowed funds to consume - then good luck ultimately in repaying the external debt... and with obtaining future external credit.

Eventually, a country hits its intertemporal budget constraint pretty hard if it borrows for decades on end without investing the proceeds of the loan...

The rest is business cycles. Temporary. Transitory. Fluctuations. Only physical investment in new capital enhances future output, income and wealth - long-run persistent/sustained growth. And domestic savings and borrowed funds from abroad (foreign savings) are the only two ways to achieve it...

[EventingJ]

I have to say I am slightly worried as in the next few years we had planned on buying a small farm for ourselves. I am hoping things will be solved so the housing market swings back up and that I will actually be able to get a loan at a decent rate, so I can sell my current house at a reasonable rate and buy a cute farm with a couple of stalls and an indoor.

[lawndart]

This is a great thread! Refreshing to see intelligent discussion without sarcasm or out right venom. :)

Yes, it will affect me, and mine. Probably less then most. I am already seeing a drop in calls for retirement, and of course the rising costs of feed, bedding, fuel, fertilizer, etc., has affected me as well. But, we make our own hay, so that helps, plus we have streamlined our farm costs about 18 months ago, because we could see this coming. DH's business is as opposite of mine as can be, so we will be fine personally, as will my own horses. We have always been conservative in our spending and investments.

My heart does hurt for all the horses out there that will be dumped at auctions, given to questionable homes, or outright starved. :( I wish I could save everyone :sadsmile:

I have always hated how credit card companies raise your limits without asking, and YOU have to write to them requesting they lower it back down to a reasonable level. :mad: I use those suckers for emergencies, and for convenience while traveling. I won't be buying a car with it. Leave it at the original amount unless I ask!!

Maybe it would be best to let the market regulate itself, without interference from our government. After all, its not like the gov't has a history of being fiscally responsible. :no:

All the earmarks being added to the 'Bailout Bill' is very disturbing.

[gieriscm]

I have always hated how credit card companies raise your limits without asking, and YOU have to write to them requesting they lower it back down to a reasonable level.

Be warned that if you do this, your FICO score takes a hit. :mad:

[cowgirljenn]

Has anyone else been designated as plan B yet?

Nope, but that's because the family has 220 acres in central MO - and that's where we're all heading if things get REALLY bad.

Maybe now I can convince my husband to let me buy chickens (once I have a place to keep them, anyway! Got to rebuild first!). Then we can have 'free' eggs to go with the garden vegetables. ;) Of course, Ike stripped most of our vegetables this year. We'll just have a winter garden.

[squiggle]

Your logic here is faulty....while the money for the goods may not actually stay within the community as far as PRODUCTION, where the heck do you think people are buying things? Do you think they're going directly to China to get them? Last time I checked, people bought their TVs, appliances, VCRs, Ipods, whatever "luxury item" you want to insert here from the likes of stores in their cities and neighborhoods. Best Buy, Wal Mart, Target, the mom & pop electronic store, etc etc. Those stores in the community employ people IN the community. I think that's the point the previous poster was getting at as far as infusing spending back into the economy. It doesn't necessarily matter where the goods are made, it matters where they are sold.

Are you kidding? An electronics store in NY (or wherever, just an example) needs to order a tv to sell. They order this tv from a company in China who charges them $400. The tv gets shipped over to NY, and the store marks it up $100 to $500 (not the most realistic pricing, I know, but it's just an example) and puts it on the shelf to sell. Somebody comes along and buys the $500 tv. The store keeps that $100 profit from the tv sale, and then sends that remaining $400 over to the Chinese company to pay for the tv.

We (US store) made $100 from that sale. Great. The Chinese company made $400 off of that sale - four times the amount we got. This is helping the US economy how, exactly?

Okay, now we have the same NY electronics company. They buy a $400 tv from a company in OH, mark it up to $500 and put it on the shelf. Someone buys the $500 tv. NY company keeps the $100 profit and sends the remaining $400 back to the OH company, which means that IT STAYS IN THE US AND FEEDS BACK INTO OUR ECONOMY. Our economy is $400 richer due to that one tv manufactured in the US.

Of course, that is not even the way it really goes. Reality is worse.

Alright, back to the NY electronics company one more time. They need to order another tv, identical to the first one. They go to another US-based company (we are assuming this US company does not outsource and manufactures tv parts here in the US, of course) to get this tv, and this US company unfortunately has to charge $500 for this tv because the cost of production is higher here than in China. The NY electronics company marks the tv up to $600 and puts it on the shelf. Someone comes along shopping for a new tv, sees this tv, and passes it up for the Chinese tv that costs $500 ($100 less, gotta save money with the economy the way it is). Now, not only are we out that $400 that went to China (remember the first tv), we are out another $500 that could have gone to us because the US tv did not sell. That's $900 now that the US economy is out.

I'm sure there are better ways to explain that, I didn't get much sleep last night.

P.S. You know that US company that made the $600 tv? They are losing money because they cannot compete with the China tv company. They eventually go bankrupt, and 4,700 people are now out of jobs. That's 4,700 newly unemployed people looking for new jobs and not spending the money that they do have (negative economic impact) because they need to save it since they are jobless. I could keep going, it spirals down from there...

[FalseImpression]

Whoever said that retail jobs stay here.... how much money do retail people earn vs. production people in the US? So, even with retail jobs here to sell China made items... there will be less money to spend here. It is much better to keep production jobs here...

[flshgordon]

Are you kidding? An electronics store in NY (or wherever, just an example) needs to order a tv to sell. They order this tv from a company in China who charges them $400. The tv gets shipped over to NY, and the store marks it up $100 to $500 (not the most realistic pricing, I know, but it's just an example) and puts it on the shelf to sell. Somebody comes along and buys the $500 tv. The store keeps that $100 profit from the tv sale, and then sends that remaining $400 over to the Chinese company to pay for the tv.

We (US store) made $100 from that sale. Great. The Chinese company made $400 off of that sale - four times the amount we got. This is helping the US economy how, exactly?

Okay, now we have the same NY electronics company. They buy a $400 tv from a company in OH, mark it up to $500 and put it on the shelf. Someone buys the $500 tv. NY company keeps the $100 profit and sends the remaining $400 back to the OH company, which means that IT STAYS IN THE US AND FEEDS BACK INTO OUR ECONOMY. Our economy is $400 richer due to that one tv manufactured in the US.

Of course, that is not even the way it really goes. Reality is worse.

Alright, back to the NY electronics company one more time. They need to order another tv, identical to the first one. They go to another US-based company (we are assuming this US company does not outsource and manufactures tv parts here in the US, of course) to get this tv, and this US company unfortunately has to charge $500 for this tv because the cost of production is higher here than in China. The NY electronics company marks the tv up to $600 and puts it on the shelf. Someone comes along shopping for a new tv, sees this tv, and passes it up for the Chinese tv that costs $500 ($100 less, gotta save money with the economy the way it is). Now, not only are we out that $400 that went to China (remember the first tv), we are out another $500 that could have gone to us because the US tv did not sell. That's $900 now that the US economy is out.

I'm sure there are better ways to explain that, I didn't get much sleep last night.

P.S. You know that US company that made the $600 tv? They are losing money because they cannot compete with the China tv company. They eventually go bankrupt, and 4,700 people are now out of jobs. That's 4,700 newly unemployed people looking for new jobs and not spending the money that they do have (negative economic impact) because they need to save it since they are jobless. I could keep going, it spirals down from there...

You're talking apples and oranges. If there is no where for anyone to work, they will have no money to spend on anything. No jobs=no spending. Yes it's distasteful that the crap is made overseas, but someone here still has to sell it/buy it. Think of how many jobs are lost if no one buys ANYTHING. luxuries, staples, furniture, cars, food, boats, insurance, just ANYTHING. If everyone is growing their own vegetables and slaughtering their own meat yes that is saving them a ton of money. But it's still putting a lot of people out of work or way below the poverty line. Cattle owners, produce farmers, grocery store workers. Viscious cycle...

[flshgordon]

Whoever said that retail jobs stay here.... how much money do retail people earn vs. production people in the US? So, even with retail jobs here to sell China made items... there will be less money to spend here. It is much better to keep production jobs here...

Agreed....always BETTER to keep the production over here but I don't see that swinging our way anytime soon. We need to be able to keep ANY jobs we can here...and that includes retail.

[deltawave]

We (US store) made $100 from that sale. Great. The Chinese company made $400 off of that sale - four times the amount we got. This is helping the US economy how, exactly?

Unless the "Chinese company" made the TV out of thin air, they didn't make $400, either. They probably had to pay $300 for parts and labor. That "Chinese company" is also probably pumping most of its profits right back into the WORLD ECONOMY, which is what we belong to in the 21st century. Isolationism is over.

[philosoraptor]

Unless the "Chinese company" made the TV out of thin air, they didn't make $400, either. They probably had to pay $300 for parts and labor. That "Chinese company" is also probably pumping most of its profits right back into the WORLD ECONOMY, which is what we belong to in the 21st century. Isolationism is over.

That only if China is importing the TV parts from somewhere else, but usually electronics made in asia are assembled of parts also made in asia.

The labor is $.25/hour paid to 14 yr old girls in sweatshops. The rest is profit which can end up anywhere: investments, R&D, who knows? Not likely to end up creating new jobs in the US.


On a slightly related note: the WORLD ECONOMY may be about to affect us in a different way. When/if this huge bailout occurs, it'll be financed using a huge huge amount of bonds. Since the US economy is in shambles, it'll be foriegn countries governments or companies who buy those bonds.

So the question is : is this bail-out such a good idea if it means selling up to $700 BILLION of bonds to foreigners? The bailout may or may not break even or make us taxpayers money.... but any way you look at it, the investment [interest] payments that are being generated are *leaving* the country.

[4Martini]

The rest is profit which can end up anywhere: investments, R&D, who knows? Not likely to end up creating new jobs in the US.


First off I would like to know the brand of Chinese Television you are buying? Most TV brands are Korean or Japanese.

Also there are a lot of other jobs you are overlooking. The New York store does not call China and say "Nihao, I'd like to buy a TV."

There are sales, marketing and fullfillment jobs in the US to serve US customers most companies have R & D in the US as well.

Look at Sony data from my math they employ 25,200 employees in North America:
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/Environment/employees/info/index.html

I would say that's a lot of probably very well paying jobs in North America.

That's a lot of money flowing into the US economy to pay for horses and gear...

[riverbell93]

How do you feel the bailout will help? I am listening to the economists. Some flat out say that if things are crumbling putting your finger in the leaking dam isn't going to stop a flood. And in the meantime you've given $700 billion to a single government agency which does not have to report to congress, work on a budget, or follow checks-and-balances. I am also concerned that anything they throw together will be hastily made and not well thought out. Bills normally take months go be drafted, go to committee, and go to the floor for debate. We're forcing this one through within a matter of days with barely time to read the thing much less debate it. Is that wise? Expect to see the dollar fall quite a bit more, not just because of the Fed's plan. This affects all of us because we're so dependent on imported goods, food, and energy.

From what I understand (and I may have gotten this wrong, but it's what I've gathered from the news, chiefly NPR) it isn't a case of helping the system or stopping a flood or managing a disaster. It's not just another corporate evil or Bush screw up. It's a failure of the essential backdrop of the way the financial system operates. It runs on the basic assurance that there's a there there - that the banks and traders and everyone selling and buying and spending can back up their actions with cash. Now the largest, most powerful and prestigous members of those ranks have been exposed as being unable to back up their actions, and that's decimating the financial world because no action is safe. It's not a flood that's going to be a problem, it's a drought. A human can't live without blood moving through their veins, and economies can't survive without money moving through the markets.

I agree with the need for oversight and the rest; I think everyone does. But unfortunately, we're not in a position to take that time. Wall Street took on too much risk because Washington (GOP and Democrats) failed spectacularly to oversee their actions; Washington failed both because the media failed to oppress them on financial matters when there were juicy wars to debate and heiresses to pursue and because the citizens failed to take an intelligent interest in their own country and the source of all that credit. At any time in the last what? 20 years we could have revamped the system and debated and taken time. Now we are forced to do something quick enough to just keep the system alive against a future where we can improve it.

I do love the notion that in case of emergency, we can all just can our own food. How long would it take for a financially barren America to be attacked by the less jolly nations?

[deltawave]

Personally I have no problem with "foreigners" buying our bonds. At least someone will be buying them. I consider myself a resident of planet Earth first, then an American. :)

[appaloosalady]

Whoever said that retail jobs stay here.... how much money do retail people earn vs. production people in the US? So, even with retail jobs here to sell China made items... there will be less money to spend here. It is much better to keep production jobs here...

I just picked up a part time job at the local Meijer store (like a Wal-Mart, but only in the Midwest for now) to help out while I'm working on my nursing degree. I make as much (more, if you add in my shift premium) as the local shop workers do and will be getting guaranteed raises about every 3 months. Some factory workers do make quite a lot obviously, but that is why the auto industry is in so much trouble - years of over paying people who had minimal education and skills, but happened to know the right people at the right time. When retail jobs disappear, the economy has pretty much hit the ground floor.

[tkhawk]

I just picked up a part time job at the local Meijer store (like a Wal-Mart, but only in the Midwest for now) to help out while I'm working on my nursing degree. I make as much (more, if you add in my shift premium) as the local shop workers do and will be getting guaranteed raises about every 3 months. Some factory workers do make quite a lot obviously, but that is why the auto industry is in so much trouble - years of over paying people who had minimal education and skills, but happened to know the right people at the right time. When retail jobs disappear, the economy has pretty much hit the ground floor.

Well at least retail we don't have to worry about offshoring-unless they invent a robot or machine that can take orders and do your info and billing or do the job of waiters-who knows the Japanes already invented a robotic dog, a robot that apparantely can converse, sing songs and even convey emotions to senior citizens. Then we will be in trouble:lol::lol:

[AZ Native]

Very good article on how and why this happened :

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/making-sense-of-our-financial-mess/

[philosoraptor]

First off I would like to know the brand of Chinese Television you are buying? Most TV brands are Korean or Japanese.

Ok, insert favorite asian country name here : _____ electronics. China was an example. :)

Also there are a lot of other jobs you are overlooking. The New York store does not call China and say "Nihao, I'd like to buy a TV."

But tell me how jobs are being created by making the TV (for example) in asia and not in the US? In both cases you have distrubution and retail jobs.

Maybe I'm also bothered that in this race-to-the-bottom we've also replaced local stores with Walmart type stores. So the job creation numbers we're getting from Washington are mostly "$7/hr Walmart Cashier" jobs.

[MSP]

Couple more links


the 400+ page bill, latest version some light reading for all!
http://banking.senate.gov/public/_files/latestversionAYO08C32_xml.pdf

Some one needs to read it!


Some reference to how this all got started...how about an article written in 1999?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F9582 60&sec=&spon=&&scp=1&sq=fannie%20mae%20september%2030%201999&st=cse

In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.

The action, which will begin as a pilot program involving 24 banks in 15 markets -- including the New York metropolitan region -- will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify for conventional loans. Fannie Mae officials say they hope to make it a nationwide program by next spring.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.
...
In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.

''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''

[philosoraptor]

It's been brought to everyone's attention that the bad debts that the Bailout package would help are not 100% US assets. Keep in mind the corporations holding these bad debts are often multi-national. Therefore taxpayers will be paying to bail out a note held on a condo in Singapore or a skyscraper in London.

Some lawmakers realized this and tried to fix it by adding to the bill language that specifies the bail-out should only be used to buy bad debt on *US* assets only. Looks like they're going to pass the bill anyway without this protection.

So now our tax $ goes to bail out bad debts worldwide. We have no guarentee of repayment. And we're financing it by flooding the market with treasury bills... which means (1) foreigners are making a tidy return on our tax dollars because they're not excluded from buying and (2) the flood of t-bills is expected to drive the dollar even lower.

A lower dollar hurts MANY of us, and of course that trickles into the horse economy too. The dollar exchange is important when something is imported or exported. When the dollar drops, it takes more dollars to buy the imported object, good, or oil. Therefore it will hurt us all when we try to buy for example stable supplies like a new horse blanket. Most of our oil is imported, so expect gas prices to rise. The farmers who grow our hay depend on equipment, and most equipment or at least machinery components are made overseas. Even dinky day-to-day things like a new trailer part for the truck may go up, if it's imported.

People... pay attention to what is going on. You don't have to believe what I say. All I'm asking is for you to look into it for yourselves.

Full text of Bail Out Plan (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/28/bailout-legislation-full_n_130063.html)

One commentary on this (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/bailout-bills-foreign-aid-program/story.aspx?guid=%7BA6967E51-FC1A-4BFC-BB93-E57327D873F6%7D&siteid=yahoomy)

Market Ticker reports: (http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/596-The-TRUTH-About-The-Bailout.html) You are going to have $700 billion - about 25% of the total federal budget - put on your personal credit card (via taxes forever) in order to bail out foreign investors.

[katarine]

Careful now, this is the uber Democractic swamp that is COTH you know...and you just implicated a DEMOCRATIC administration in supporting this mess we're in. Hatching it, incubating it, encouraging it...DEMOCRATS, not Republicans. And how about the regulators testifying we were headed straight to hell earlier THIS year? Only to be shooed away as witch hunting...by Freddie and Fannies best pals....a strongly Democratic herd, and again, tell me how much $$$ F&F have given Obama? Anyone got THAT number handy?

It all sucks out loud but it really is nice to see- after years of whacking beat up old George...references to the real root- The CLINTON'S.

[jerry]

I am not an economist. I don't know anybody who is. In times like these, all you can really do is look to somebody you can have a little faith in. I am a democrat politically, but I won't factor that in. The most capable person I've seen in the mix is Fed chief Bernanke. He is a huge student of the great depression and spent some 30 years studying it and it causes and cures. The most capable person not in on the fix is Warren Buffet. He makes gold coins out of turds. I haven't seen him offer up any opinions, yet. Personally, I think it's a coin toss, do we or don't we, but it really grates on me that this bailout seems to go 1st to multi-millionaires. If the CEO of Wachovia doesn't p*ss you off with his 3 week/19 million deal, you are really jaded.

[prairiewind2]

So the question is : is this bail-out such a good idea if it means selling up to $700 BILLION of bonds to foreigners? The bailout may or may not break even or make us taxpayers money.... but any way you look at it, the investment [interest] payments that are being generated are *leaving* the country.

That ship has sailed! In 2007, about 25% of Treasuries were owned by foreigners.

"The biggest chunk (about 25 percent of the $8.5 trillion total) is held by foreign governments. Japan tops the list (with $644 billion), followed by China ($350 billion), United Kingdom ($239 billion) and oil exporting countries ($100 billion)."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17424874/

Some of these countries have made noise about dumping their Treasuries if the dollar falls too low. That would be very bad for us. This is yet another reason to make sure our economy doesn't fail.

Liz

[hosspuller]

Just playing around with this site ... TODAY

https://secure.bestratesfrom.us/cash-2a/aboutus.html

I asked for a $400,000 (need some pasture) interest only home loan with no money down and income of $36,000 per year. That's $3,000 per month before taxes and union dues.

Said there were 12 lenders that would consider me ... Yikes.

Interest alone will be $1,667 per month at 5%. Buy this house and eat ramen noodles, but no money left to heat the house. No wonder the country is bankrupt.

... Interest only means, NEVER buying the home. One is only paying the interest, nothing on principle balance. Who came up with with this horse puck sandwich??

[Frank B]

Anyone else notice all the pork the Senate tacked on to the "rescue" bill?
Boy, talk about hypocrisy! Same old same old from Capitol Hill!
Dave Ramsey (http://www.daveramsey.com/radio/home/) is going to have a field day tonight!

[Perfect Pony]

Careful now, this is the uber Democractic swamp that is COTH you know...and you just implicated a DEMOCRATIC administration in supporting this mess we're in. Hatching it, incubating it, encouraging it...DEMOCRATS, not Republicans. And how about the regulators testifying we were headed straight to hell earlier THIS year? Only to be shooed away as witch hunting...by Freddie and Fannies best pals....a strongly Democratic herd, and again, tell me how much $$$ F&F have given Obama? Anyone got THAT number handy?

It all sucks out loud but it really is nice to see- after years of whacking beat up old George...references to the real root- The CLINTON'S.

Actually the REAL root of all of this was REAGAN, this is just the culmination of almost 30 years of increasing debt, deregulation, "free trade" and trickle down economics.

[prairiewind2]

From what I understand (and I may have gotten this wrong, but it's what I've gathered from the news, chiefly NPR) it isn't a case of helping the system or stopping a flood or managing a disaster. It's not just another corporate evil or Bush screw up. It's a failure of the essential backdrop of the way the financial system operates. It runs on the basic assurance that there's a there there - that the banks and traders and everyone selling and buying and spending can back up their actions with cash. Now the largest, most powerful and prestigous members of those ranks have been exposed as being unable to back up their actions, and that's decimating the financial world because no action is safe. It's not a flood that's going to be a problem, it's a drought. A human can't live without blood moving through their veins, and economies can't survive without money moving through the markets.

Spot on!


[/QUOTE]I do love the notion that in case of emergency, we can all just can our own food.[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I've been wondering about that too! Imagining the millions of inner city folk canning the food they grow on their windowsills, milking the cows they keep in their bathrooms, and slaughtering the chickens they keep under their beds...:winkgrin:

Liz

[hosspuller]

Actually the REAL root of all of this was REAGAN, this is just the culmination of almost 30 years of increasing debt, deregulation, "free trade" and trickle down economics.



How so ??

Watch this with your lying eyes, listen with your lying ears and tell us again...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

[Frank B]

Actually the REAL root of all of this was REAGAN, this is just the culmination of almost 30 years of increasing debt, deregulation, "free trade" and trickle down economics.
:lol::lol::lol: PP, your sense of humor never ceases to amaze!

[prairiewind2]

Actually the REAL root of all of this was REAGAN, this is just the culmination of almost 30 years of increasing debt, deregulation, "free trade" and trickle down economics.

I would argue that the real root is capitalism. We repeat this pattern again and again. It is verrrrry like the causes of the 1929 crash, and the crashes before that. Seriously.

Not knocking capitalism here. The flaws are built into the system, just as they are in any system. Which is why it's never a Republican problem or a Democratic problem.

So it goes (to quote Slaughterhouse Five, and later, Linda Ellerbee).

Liz

[Frank B]

...tell me how much $$$ F&F have given Obama? Anyone got THAT number handy?...

Here ya go! (http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/09/update-fannie-mae-and-freddie.html)

[MSP]

Actually the REAL root of all of this was REAGAN, this is just the culmination of almost 30 years of increasing debt, deregulation, "free trade" and trickle down economics.

Yeah right! Palosi must have passed you some cool-aide. Housing the poor that can't afford to make the mouthy payments sounds like a Republican idea! :lol:

[hosspuller]

I would argue that the real root is capitalism. We repeat this pattern again and again. It is verrrrry like the causes of the 1929 crash, and the crashes before that. Seriously.

Not knocking capitalism here. The flaws are built into the system, just as they are in any system. Which is why it's never a Republican problem or a Democratic problem.

So it goes (to quote Slaughterhouse Five, and later, Linda Ellerbee).

Liz

Not the system the original founders built (Jefferson. Madison, et al) Only people paying taxes could vote.

Later generations have "improved" the system.

I'm Sorta paraphrasing... "When the general populace discover they can open the republic's purse upon themselves, the great experiment in democracy dies"...

Perhaps someone with a better memory can fix it ... (please)

[Perfect Pony]

Sorry but I am not joking. Congress is just a bunch of Sheeple. We didn't get here overnight folks, we didn't even get here just because of the last few years. We got here after decades of systematic deregulation, outsourcing of jobs, rising debt, and tax cuts for the wealthy that have done nothing but create a larger gap between the rich and poor.

http://hnn.us/articles/53527.html
The Bush's and Clinton just drank the Reagan kool aid to make themselves and their friends rich. Now they are stealing the last of the money before they all bolt for the door.

[prairiewind2]

Not the system the original founders built (Jefferson. Madison, et al) Only people paying taxes could vote.

Later generations have "improved" the system.

I'm Sorta paraphrasing... "When the general populace discover they can open the republic's purse upon themselves, the great experiment in democracy dies"...

Perhaps someone with a better memory can fix it ... (please)

But I'm not talking about the bailout, or the #@!&*@# earmarks tacked on to the bailout. I'm talking about the root causes of recessions/depressions. Bottom line on those two things is usually the desire for more, taken to extremes. The desire for more is built into capitalism. Neither party is really responsible for that. It's a "people" thing. ;)

Liz

[prairiewind2]

Sorry but I am not joking. Congress is just a bunch of Sheeple. We didn't get here overnight folks, we didn't even get here just because of the last few years. We got here after decades of systematic deregulation, outsourcing of jobs, rising debt, and tax cuts for the wealthy that have done nothing but create a larger gap between the rich and poor.

http://hnn.us/articles/53527.html
The Bush's and Clinton just drank the Reagan kool aid to make themselves and their friends rich. Now they are stealing the last of the money before they all bolt for the door.


But we all drank the Koolaid. Every time we chose a cheap, foreign-made tv over a US-made tv (back when we had that choice), every time we shop at Wally world...we make that choice, too. Just on a smaller scale that is more in line with our economic place in the world.

Liz

[hosspuller]

Sorry but I am not joking. Congress is just a bunch of Sheeple. We didn't get here overnight folks, we didn't even get here just because of the last few years. We got here after decades of systematic deregulation, outsourcing of jobs, rising debt, and tax cuts for the wealthy that have done nothing but create a larger gap between the rich and poor.

http://hnn.us/articles/53527.html
The Bush's and Clinton just drank the Reagan kool aid to make themselves and their friends rich. Now they are stealing the last of the money before they all bolt for the door.

Robert Toplin: author of "Radical Conservatism: The Right's Political Religion " No cheerleader of the right this man. That link is merely his opinion. He is welcome to keep it.


Here's their own words, spoken from their mouths.

Click here >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

Listen for who is asking for MORE regulation... Watch who kicks the regulators in the teeth.


We working people need to get MAD and ANGRY.

Angry at Greg Meeks (D-New York) posturing and protecting the robbers of our efforts at providing for our family.

Angry at Arthur Davis (D-Alabama)...

Angry at Maxine Waters (D-California)...

Angry at Barney Franks (D-Massachusetts)...

Angry at Lacey Clay (D-Missouri)...

WHY?

Notice a pattern here ???

VOTE against the (D's) Damn Democrats where ever You are. Or be slaves to their system, allowing them to steal from YOUR children!

[Perfect Pony]

VOTE against the (D's) Damn Democrats where ever You are. Or be slaves to their system, allowing them to steal from YOUR children!

Excuse me? Who exactly has been stealing from the children for the last how many YEARS? Literally stealing TRILLIONS?

I want "the children" to have health care and education, not war and debt.

[Perfect Pony]

And here's a great read on what was the last nail in the coffin, sponsored, pushed and named after McCain's economic adviser, and supported 100% by republicans, and regrettably signed by Clinton.
http://piggington.com/clinton_republicans_agree_to_deregulation_of_us_fi nancial_system

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=s1999-105