Trot-walk transitions

[amastrike]

I've spent probably the last month working on walk-halt and trot-walk transitions with my horse, trying to make them as smooth and quiet as possible, with him not throwing his head in the air, locking his jaw, or laying on the bit. The walk-halt transitions are good (or maybe they're not, but I'm happy with them). But we just can't get trot-walk transitions. (Obviously the transitions aren't ALL we do... a lot of shoulder in and haunches out at the walk, leg yield at the walk and trot, just trying for quiet cantering.)

I've tried everything I can think of. We've done things trying to get him really using his hindquarters (lengthening and shortening the trot, halt to trot, backing up and then straight into the trot). I've tried half-halting until we're at a very very slow trot before asking from the walk; I've tried sitting trot and posting trot (but always sitting to ask for the walk, of course).

Nothing is working. 99% of the time, he LAYS on my hands and falls into the walk. I'm at my wits end... This has gotten me so annoyed and frustrated, I can't think of anything else to do with him to make these transitions decent. I'm keeping my shoulders back, trying to keep my hand soft, I use my seat to ask.

The walk-halt transitions are pretty nice and soft and easy--I try to just stop following with my seat, close my thigh, and squeeze my fingers, and he halts nicely. The attempted trot-walk transitions are done similarly, but it's obviously not working.

Help!

[lstevenson]

Try relaxing your thigh, and instead wrapping your whole leg around the horse. Many horses respond to the "clamping thigh" aid by stiffening their backs, which would explain what you are feeling in your hand. Keep riding every stride instead of clamping. Try for some exagerated lateral bend during your downward transitions. But again, be careful to use dynamic aids, not stiff ones.

When you say you ask with your seat, what are you doing exactly? Make sure you think of pushing your stomach towards your hands to use your seat, so your core muscles are used correctly.

[Dixon]

Are you keeping your leg on as you ask him to walk? Gotta keep the impulsion coming from the hind end.

[Petstorejunkie]

It sounds to me like you are not executing the half halt correctly, and that you are carrying tension somewhere in your body that's transferring over to your horse. Are you currently in lessons with an instructor?

[MelantheLLC]

Maybe you've done this. If not, try asking for the walk and just before he walks, ask to trot again. This should happen in a short number of strides, not a long slow-down. Trot-trot-walk-oops-trot. (Of course this is a half-halt but a really major one.)

Do this in the same place for awhile, until he starts to expect it. Keep your own body very relaxed through the whole thing--this will be the hardest part actually; the quick ask to walk then oops trot w/o changing your position, tightening the reins or your seat, hanging yourself in any part of your body. Analyze what YOU do as you ask for this quick exercise.

See if that helps him keep his back up and ready with impulsion. If so, then let the walk part get a tiny bit longer, but never long enough that he "lets down" into the walk. He's got to stay ready to trot again the moment you ask.

[goeslikestink]

me thinks that you not performing the half halt stride properly so the horse is confused as what your asking and the clue is becuase your asking in trot ..
when perfroming the half halt stride it should be taught to ahorse in walk and let him take a few steps in walk then down to half halt to halt theres no where else to go but stop its easier for the hrse to learn and you then you can go up gears but not striaght into trot
when schooling horses we have to master all the walk paces ie free walk medium walk and extended walk and using half halt stride in between changes of walk once mastered then you move up in to trot--paces ie medium trot working trot and extended trot mxing the paces between walk and trot, and then all trots and then you can add canter strides and counter canter - then mix all the strides so you moving up gears and down gears ie walk - to - canter
etc
look here i have explained how to perform the half halt stride in this topic
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=117959&highlight=half+halts+stride

[mickeydoodle]

So often what happens is that people read books and web posts that say "ask with your seat, your legs....." Unfortunately no one has the horse read this advice. Basically, you MUST ask with your hands for a while, in conjunction with the seat/leg aids so the poor beast learns that the thing you do with your seat and legs means go to the next lower gait!! The horse is not born knowing that the closing of thighs, calves, whatever your aid, means go from trot to walk. Make the first few (or the first 100....) transitions with your hands and the other aids, so he/she learns what you want. Then they will know the aid for transition, and do it well.

[amastrike]

lstevenson, I've been using the closing the thigh thing for half-halts and down transitions for quite a while, so I think he understand what it means.. I'll try the transition without, though. As far as using my seat... I sort of think of pushing my seat down and lifting up and forward, kind of like I'm trying to stick to him and lift him up with it.

Dixon.. no, probably not enough leg. He tends to want to go too forward, so I try not to encourage it... but maybe I'm discouraging it too much. I'll give that a try.

Petstorejunkie, I freely admit that half-halts are a challenge for me, and it's quite possible I'm not doing it well enough. But he listens to the same aids for walk-halt and canter-trot transitions, so I don't know.. but he does have a horrible trot and it's a challenge to sit it for even a few steps before asking for the walk, so maybe I'm getting too tense trying to do that? Haven't had a lesson in while, due to lack of time and money. I'll probably ride while she's teaching tomorrow, though, and ask her to watch me for a minute. She said she would get on him for me and see what she can do.

MelantheLLC, no, I haven't quite tried that.. I've done the trot-walk one step-trot. My only concern is that he tends to almost-walk-but-not-quite as it is, the challenge is getting him to actually walk. Do you think trying that exercise will help anyway?

Goeslikestink, I think he's pretty well understanding the half halt and down to the halt at the walk, and really he's pretty good at the canter.. It's just the trot. I can't avoid down transitions from the trot forever.

Mickeydoodle, he KNOWS what the seat/leg means. I use the seat/leg to slow the trot, to go from canter-trot, to go from walk-halt. I do use my hands, but I hate having to PULL on him. He understands that the sequence of aids means to listen and slow down. He's also not a green or untrained horse--he's 21, and was my instructor's dressage horse for several years (though she stopped riding him quite a while ago... maybe 5 years ago or so).

[lstevenson]

but he does have a horrible trot and it's a challenge to sit it for even a few steps before asking for the walk


OK, you just answered your own question. You have to be able to sit the trot well to keep the horse on the aids and give the horse a clear half halt, or aid to walk. So work on getting the horse really on the aids in the trot, and work on your sitting trot, and when all that is correct your transitions will probably be there.

Good luck!

[amastrike]

Oh, he's on the aids at the trot...just that the sitting trot is pretty much the worst thing ever. It's improved hugely, but still not great. He has a trot like a pogo stick, and I HATE it. On the bright side, thanks to him, I can sit pretty much any *other* horse's trot.. just not my own. The only time I can really really sit it is bareback. Put a saddle on him, and I just can't do it that well. *sigh* I hate sitting trot.

[MelantheLLC]

MelantheLLC, no, I haven't quite tried that.. I've done the trot-walk one step-trot. My only concern is that he tends to almost-walk-but-not-quite as it is, the challenge is getting him to actually walk. Do you think trying that exercise will help anyway?

What's he doing when he's almost walking? Is he on the bit and using his haunches? Or is he throwing up his head and resisting?

Now that you mention his age, and having just retired a horse myself, I'm thinking this is just something that is quite hard for him. He may well have pain. You mention doing several things that to me are more difficult than a trot walk transition, including halt-trot. How does he handle that?

Can he do this on the lunge in side-reins? Try getting off of him and doing the same transitions on the lunge to see how he's using his body.

Others may disagree, but I've had success with fairly quickly transitions (following one another quickly) asked for at the same location. So on the lunge I'd first get him trotting, then ask for the downward, walk half circle, trot half circle, etc. Eventually going to transitions at the quarter circle. But in the same places as best you can. I think this gives a horse a chance to figure out what's coming and how to use his body to get ready for it.

If it's not working on the lunge and correctly fitted side-reins, without you aboard, then it could be a pain and/or strength issue.

You could also try the transitions in two-point to see if getting off his back entirely makes any difference.

I always think horses don't lie--when they consistently throw their heads in a certain movement, they don't find it comfortable for one reason or another.

[lstevenson]

The only time I can really really sit it is bareback. Put a saddle on him, and I just can't do it that well. *sigh* I hate sitting trot.

Well, you really have little hope of a good trot to walk transition if you are not in perfect harmony with him in the sittting trot. So in all honesty, I would avoid working on trot to walk transitions at the moment, since you are only cementing a bad habit right now, which is resisting in the transition.

Do some lunge lessons on him in side reins, and work on your sitting trot. And when a horse is truely on the aids and working correctly through his back, he almost always becomes much easier to sit.

Also, check your saddle fit. Since you say it's so much easier to sit him bareback. I know my new horse was really hard to sit, and then I got him a Stackhouse custom saddle. And let me tell you, when the tree fits the horse's back exactly in shape and design (not just size), the saddle stays nicely connected to the horse's back. And sitting the trot suddenly becomes easy. If the saddle itself is moving around and banging on his back, it makes it very hard for the rider to sit.

[GiGi]

My mare has been doing this since April. It is getting better but slowly. All the advice is good. I found what worked for awhile all of a sudden doesn't help. Though the resistance is there the solution changes as she gets stronger and more trained to the aids. This week's solution had absolutely nothing to do with seat or half halt; it had to do with a tight supportive inside leg. Go figure. I asked with my seat; a little support in the reins; inside leg on firm and voila nose in head down; a nicely balanced transtion. Also you can't get a balanced transition if you aren't in balance in the gait going into it. Is your horse in a nice balance, relaxed, rounded, impulsion from behind trot when you ask for a transition? And patience; alot of times its a strength issue especially with green, young or outta shape horses. It will come but may take more than a month. My mare can downward canter/trot but as stated still has a little difficulty occationally still with trot/walk. Good luck!

[Ajierene]

What I am seeing is that if you do not have the muscle strength/control and balance to sit the trot, you will not have the muscle strength/control and balance to ask for a proper transition into walk. Any amount of practice with always asking for the downward and/or upward transitions at the same place will help him anticipate the transitions, but he will not necessarily, or likely, do them correctly if you do not ask correctly. I would suggest working on your sit trot. When you can sit trot well, for a good 20 min or more - start working on the transition again.

[goeslikestink]

Oh, he's on the aids at the trot...just that the sitting trot is pretty much the worst thing ever. It's improved hugely, but still not great. He has a trot like a pogo stick, and I HATE it. On the bright side, thanks to him, I can sit pretty much any *other* horse's trot.. just not my own. The only time I can really really sit it is bareback. Put a saddle on him, and I just can't do it that well. *sigh* I hate sitting trot.


tend to agree with l stevie, matey if you cant sit to a trot then you cant rise to a trot
and you are not performing the half halts-- half collect a horse up from a faster pace to a more collected pace or to inform the horse something going to change- ie a transition you failed to understand that to teach the horse dwonwards transitions then you teach the horse the half halt stride in upward transitions the half halt stride is a basic movement used in all displines sj dressage and eventing etc

you sit bareback becuse you gripping, and not riding from an independant seat-- so have no balance god a saddle is an aid, so its easier to sit and rise
if riding bare back troting you push up frm your knees you legs stay still and move your body in time with his legs- its a simple movement of pushing upwards
with a saddle its hte same thing but you have stirrups for support of your feet
you dont stand in them you psuh upwards

s a horse in trot is two time pace the horse will nearly always start with the left leg so go up
then sit -- so think 1 2 up on one and down on 2

i will make it easier for you to unserstand - stand still on the ground
as in you dismounted--- by self -- walk 4 paces starting with your left leg
one two one two -- get that into your head, now jog 4 paces-- the time is quicker
it goes 12 12 12 -- now mount the horse,
think 1 - 2 1-- 2 if the horse is apony stride might be quicker than a horse
so time of beat - would be 12 12 12--

now sit in your saddle and pretend you have a tube of toothpaste
now dont want blash it when we sit on it so the perosn behind say has a face full all in one go,
we want rise with the trot-- and sit, so its a gentle sit squirk sit squirk but at the same time we dont want to lose the tube of tooth paste - meaning come up to far out of the saddle you will have huge gap between you bum and the seat of the saddle
which is and owuld make you tilt forwards and then be heavy in the hands and then the horse would hollow up or advade as you have jabbed him in the mouth
so we want a tiny movement and smallish gap between bum and saddle
so sit squirks -- as in up in one sit in 2 and squirk
when we do sitting trot we hold onto that tube of toothpaste without it squrking
we gentle go in ryhtem with the horses movements
our bum cheeks to his back so from behind its a movement of cheek to cheek
you should shorten your reins when preparing to trot to inform the horse a change in pace is happening, your hands should stay still and soft , i be back something come up

[Schiffon]

I agree that if you can't sit the trot, it will be hard to get a supple down transition on a horse that doesn't easily offer them.

One exercise that might be helpful (mostly from sitting trot) is after a half-halt go into walk while doing a turn on the forehand. I've found this can be an effective way for rider and horse to learn to apply/react/accept driving aids into the downward transition without a fight. Eventually all you need to do is think TOFH and prevent the sideways step with the outside leg and a straight transition will result. And eventually this can be converted into transitions in shoulder-fore.

[amastrike]

What's he doing when he's almost walking? Is he on the bit and using his haunches? Or is he throwing up his head and resisting?
I have no idea... He's not being horrible. It feels like he's *just about* to softly glide down into the walk, but then... he doesn't. He doesn't longe all that well... I don't think trying anything on the longe line will really tell me anything, because any problems would be better attributed to him not being good on the longe.

I don't think it's a matter of discomfort... I know he's 21, and you guys know he's 21 because I said it, but HE doesn't know that. Vet/chiro comments on what excellent shape he's in, his back is fine (there are always some slight adjustments to be made, but nothing major). I'm 100% sure that the chiro would find a problem if there was one. If the issues continue until her next visit, I'll describe everything to her and see if she can find something, but I don't think there's anything.. He does have some spinal arthritis, but that is being treated and he's doing fine. If my saddle wasn't fitting him, she'd find that, too.

ood trot to walk transition if you are not in perfect harmony with him in the sittting trot. So in all honesty, I would avoid working on trot to walk transitions at the moment, since you are only cementing a bad habit right now, which is resisting in the transition.
So I'm going to ask the obvious. How am I supposed to ride if I can't do trot-walk transitions? I suppose I could do trot-canter and then canter-walk, but those aren't really any better.

Thanks, Gigi. The funny thing is, I'm quite certain he USED to do this, and not all that long ago. I think maybe it's a combo of having been off a couple times, for several weeks each time, and me just neglecting it? I think the trot is nice and forward and impulsed and round and relaxed.. I usually try to bring him back just a little before the transition, thinking that maybe if he's not going as forward it'll be easier. Maybe I'll try going straight from our nice trot down to the walk and see if he can do it like that.

you dit bareback becuse you gripping
Nope. If I were gripping, I WOULDN'T be able to sit it. I know how to sit the trot, I know how it's supposed to feel. I just have a heck of a time with a saddle.

Schiffon, the TOFH thing sounds interesting, I'll give that a shot.

As far as sitting trot--When I say I have a hard time, I don't mean that I'm flopping uncontrollably in the saddle. It's just not that perfect feeling of unison when it's 100% right. I'll try to have someone video us tomorrow so you guys can see. My trainer got on him today, but he was just generally being a pain, so she couldn't really tell what's going on with the transitions. And she didn't have time to ride him long enough to really accomplish much.

[lstevenson]

So I'm going to ask the obvious. How am I supposed to ride if I can't do trot-walk transitions?


Of course you have to do them. Just don't work on them. Do them as little as possible until your sitting trot is better on this horse.

As far as sitting trot--When I say I have a hard time, I don't mean that I'm flopping uncontrollably in the saddle. It's just not that perfect feeling of unison

Well, unfortunately you do have to be in perfect unison with the horse in the sitting trot to give the aids to walk so clearly and well that the horse stays on the aids.

[goeslikestink]

He does have some spinal arthritis, but that is being treated and he's doing fine. If my saddle wasn't fitting him, she'd find that, too.

why are you ridinng ahorse that has spinal trouble, theres no way on this earth he will be balanced and is aged is 21yrsold, perhaps you expect to much from him and he should be re tired

and as you dont know how to stay on in a saddle in trot then i would srugest you have lessons

you have now revealed why the horse finds it difficult as he wont lunge its simple eliment of deduction the horse has bad back truble which at his age unlikely to find a cure
and perhaps like i said its time to let him be a horse out in an open field and enjoy what life he has left in his own comfort zone

you need lesssns as you a novice as you dont know how to ask or correct a movement
and dont understand the sitting trot,
you have contridicted yourself 1st you say cant do half halts upwards but can do them downwards and know how to

last posting is admission that you dont know either
and a posting before hand says you cant sit to the trot in a saddle

which you should be able to do even at a novice level-- more so than bareback
becuase its an aid- all equipement on the horse is an aid

and yes i can ride bareback i teach bare back 1st so the rider understand the rythem and can feel it, then they can use the saddle to help use it in harmony and refiness

[slc2]

Im not as sure as you that the problem is physical. The OP also said the horse recently did very nice trot walk transitions.

Most horses, even with some changes related to aging, can do some trot walk transitions. It's not like she's asking the horse to do something really hard. I would not assume it's physical.

I would suggest having a riding lesson, and getting some input from the instructor, as to what's going wrong.

"he LAYS on my hands and falls into the walk. I'm at my wits end... This has gotten me so annoyed and frustrated, I can't think of anything else to do with him to make these transitions decent. I'm keeping my shoulders back, trying to keep my hand soft, I use my seat to ask. "

The description of what you do illustrates exactly why the transition is so bad! You can't use your 'seat to ask' until the horse is very, very schooled and strong in the hind quarter. You aren't there yet.

the horse is telling you and has been telling you for 2 months, that you are doing this wrong.

Most likely problem? Guessing from general cases, but sounds like you don't have enough impulsion in the trot, and you don't have effective half halts, and you're expecting him to respond to the aids for a very highly schooled, advanced horse, and that's not where you or he are at. Most likely, Basics are lacking.

That also means suppleness is needed, you can't get impulsion withiout it, and you can't make a downward transition without doing something to recycle that impulsion into the hind legs - that;'s what a half halt is. It means especially when training you can't just 'be soft' and expect the horse to make a perfect, soft, light transition without you doing quite a lot, at least in initial schooling where you guys are 'getting on the same page'.

The walk transition works because it's simply easier, there is less of a need to balance and get the horse working behind. There isn't as much need to ride the transition. It's just easier for horse and rider.

The horse is not supple enough. He needs to be more supple. Walk leg yields may help loosen up his ageing body as well as improve your transitions. The trot is not active enough. You need more leg.

Just going faster won't work if you don't 'catch the impulsion' into your hand.

Just 'being soft' and 'asking with your seat' won't really work either. People very often expect that to work, but it has a lot of pre-requisites, and those pre-requisites usually aren't there. On a 25 year old Lipizanner at the Spanish Riding School, it will work great to just 'be soft' and 'ask with your seat', just like it says in a book (or on a bulletin board, LOL).

But here, the horse is telling you, in no uncertain terms, 'I am not balanced, I HAVE to land on your hands, see me?'

You will need to reliably catch that impulsion into your hand and 'recycle' it to the hind quarter. That is what a half halt is. It sends the energy back to the hind quarter and bends the joints of the hind legs.

THis doesn't mean I'm suggesting you haul on the reins like a stevedore or anything like that. it means the connection, suppleness, impulsion and half halt have to be there.

You can't do this if you don't have the other ingredients - forward, supple, through the neck out to the bit with a DEFINITE, CONSISTENT contact with the reins to the mouth, not because you are pulling the reins back, but because you can send the horse to the bit, and have a springy, supple connection with the horse to the bit. Instead of being 'parked' behidn the cpntact with his neck held in, he has a springy, 'bendable' connection to the bit.

You have to have some energy going to the bit to have any 'spring' or flexibility to your contact.

Ride an active, forward, bouncy trot on a 20 meter circle at one end of the ring. Get your horse forward and supple and out to the bit - do some leg yields where you really get him to bend and be supple in his body and be through in his neck (not holding his neck in away from the bit in a 'comfortable-for-the-rider' mode, where he can't push and carry with his hind legs or be supple).

Sit up straight, look up at the sky or ceiling, look for the short side, and go a little deeper ino the first corner of the short side, RIGHT in the first corner of the short side, ride a half halt so the trot comes back a little, if that doesn't happen instantly, ride a LITTLE invisible leg yield step, ONE STEP, in that corner, just press him for one stride of it, and then ZOOM! Go forward, not going as deep into the 2nd corner of the short side.

THAT'S your transition. If you just try to ride it like it says in a book, you'll never get it. Get a good dressage instructor to watch you and help you.

Transitions are about power and energy, not about being 'soft' and 'wishing it', it isn't like that in an untrained horse - the 'wishing it' transition comes AFTER that horse has half halts and impuslion and suppleness, not before, it comes AFTER you learn to harness and direct that energy.

It cannot happen WITHOUT that energy. You can do a 'fake' transition, where you just teach the horse a trick by association, and he just slams on the brakes and comes off the contact, but it won't be a good transition.

You have a lot of power and energy going forward, and it's like you harness that energy with a half halt, and send it flying back to the hind legs. That energy makes a powerful spring of the hind quarters, that allows the horse to sit and balance, and make a very nice transition.

With the older horse, I would expect in my ride,, 10 min of walk work suppling the horse with leg yields, and about TEN minutes of trot work, possibly after some cantering to loosen him up, and I'd keep changing direction every few circles, and I'd keep the ride SHORT, but during that time I'd aim for some forward, correct work.

[rileyt]

I totally agree with the direction lstevenson is going....

A horse that raises his head, and braces against the bit in a downward transition (assuming he's not in physical pain), does it ONLY FOR ONE REASON: He's dropping his back.

When the back drops, the head comes up, and voila... you have resistance.

Your further comment about being able to sit his awful sewing machine trot makes me think the same thing.

His back must be UP all the time. It sounds like his back isn't up in the trot (this is why its a sewing machine... and why its so hard to sit). And I strongly suspect that you are closing your thigh too much, which is causing him to want to move his back down (and away from your thigh). He may "understand" quite well that a closed thigh means "whoa"... but the problem is in the excution. If he's dropping his back to get away from your thigh... you'll never get the transition you want.

I'd go back to lstevenson's first post. DON'T "close" your thigh. It really is a misnamed instruction. Your thigh MUST stay relaxed and off his back in order for him to keep his back up through the transition. The half-halt really involves an imperceptible "steadying" of the seat. And yes, it involves thigh strength... but not the kind you think. The thigh doesn't/shouldn't "close". It simply stabilizes the seat.

Meanwhile, the lower leg has to stay on to keep the back coming up to the seat.

Finally, I completely disagree with mickeydoodle about every horse needing to be asked "with the hands" at first. I think that's a poor way to think about it. Yes... you may need a stronger more stable hand (and get more pounds of pressure) at first. But you should never ask with the hands.

Good luck.

[Valentina_32926]

He may not really have his hind end underneath himself - which would make the downward transitions harder. :eek:

Try asking for trot/walk by pushing him forward with seat while both hands/elbows close AND using inside leg just behind girth for a bit of leg yield (think forward and up into walk).

The activated leg will get him stepping further underneath himself at the trot and get him to sit so that it's easier to transition downward.

[amastrike]

I wouldn't describe is trot as a sewing machine, more of a pogo stick.

You guys can enjoy (or endure) 3 and a half minutes of trotting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ef3ELL11o8

And a little more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa23pnDNIgI

And bareback, just because I really can sit the trot that way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo6mETq79HE


My notes: Didn't realize my shoulders were so forward at the sitting trot... duly noted. Reins too long/puppy paws.. eek. Bareback--yes, my leg is a bit in front. I tried it again with my leg more under me, and it was about the same. Eeeks, doing way too much with the inside rein, especially to the right (our harder way). He's always had a problem with going behind the vertical, and this is MUCH MUCH better than he used to be. Stretching at the trot takes a bit for him to get his nose forward. What I have on video is pretty much all the trotting I did, so I like to think things are a bit better once we're really going. This is very much WYSIWYG.

On the bright side, his tail is very pretty when he trots!

And FWIW, we've done several clinics with well-known judges/instructors.. we've scored in the low 60s at training level... Usually get 7s on the trot, although in a lesson with one of the clinicians, she said that he could have an 8 trot. And we got an 8+ on a walk-trot transition :D.

[nhwr]

First, I have to comment on what a good soul your horse appears to be. He moves well enough and seems to try to do everything for you. That is a real plus.

I only watched the 1st video, but here is what I see. There are many issues with your riding that could contribute to the problem you describe. You need to develop more of a dressage position. Sit up and back, get your legs underneath you. It is impossible to be really responsive with your hands in their current position. Your horse needs to be more forward. This will be easier for him to achieve (and for you to maintain) if your position is better. I didn't see many transitions on the video, but I can pretty much bet that your half halt is not established. You can't have one without a stronger position and a forward horse. I would also use more calf and less thigh on this guy and ride him with a lighter seat. Try to use your lower leg to lift his back to meet your seat. This won't happen overnight, bt once it does, you will find it a lot easier to keep him going. Once the horse is more forward, you can ask for a downward by simply sending him forward to a less yielding hand and don't forget the release.

Lastly, I was struck by the comment that accompanied your video. You don't suck. Thinking of yourself that way traps you there. We are all learning. Part of that process is appreciating our strengths and building on them, not just focusing on our faults.

Good luck.

[rileyt]

Amastrike, here's what I see:

1) A rider with "bulky" thighs and tight hip flexors ( ask me how I know this ;) )

2) A horse who is "unconnected", but willing to go around in a frame.

I'm not trying to pick on you, or him. Generally, he's moderately forward, and using his hind end pretty well for an older guy. But having seen the video (including a few strides of sitting trot, and one attempt at either a trot walk/or at least trot/slower trot transition), I'm really convinced I know what the problem is.

He needs to be ridden more strongly forward into the hand, so that you have a REAL connection. He looks nice and soft in the rein, but its too soft. He likes it, you like it, but its the source of your transition trouble. You're jiggling the rein to get him to soften, but he's really not "on" it to begin with.

As for you, for someone with your conformation (bulky thighs and sitting too much on your crotch because of the hip flexors), the meat of your thigh is pressing down into his back... and its a problem. In the posting trot its not such a big deal. But in the sitting trot, as soon as you do that, he slows down and drops his back. On the one half-transition I saw, I saw you slow down the trot, sit, stop riding forward,... result... he drops his back, so OF COURSE his head goes up in the transition... because you're getting in his way, and he's really not connected to begin with... so once you push his back down, you're in real trouble.

I hope I haven't worded this too stongly. I'm really not trying to pick. I'm trying to help you understand the theory of whats happening here, and why and how its happening. I think you need to understand it better, and then you can start to feel it.

[amastrike]

nhwr, he really is the best. As one clinician described him: "he's tolerant, but not generous." He puts up with me quite well, even if he does enjoy annoying me on occasion. Blargh, believe or not, my hands *used* to be good.... then I got lazy. I think I need to go back to holding my grab strap to keep my hands better. No, I didn't do many transitions. My half halt is not that great... its definitely one of my biggest problems. I think his lack of forward is related to the fact that he always used to want to take off. I've always been trying to get him slower and more in control (it is NOT fun learning to jump on a horse who takes off at every single fence). So your main suggestions are ride more dressage-y (good thing I've pretty much given up on hunters, lol), lighter, more forward, and figure out how to ride a good half halt?

rileyt, that progression of events leading to the bad transitions makes sense. Although, the slows down at the sitting trot more because I'm asking him--it's easier for me to sit if he's not as forward. Which is probably incorrect, but I figure it's better for both of us to almost sit a slower trot than totally not sit a better trot. Alrighty, forward it is. Any tips on getting better at sitting the trot? Besides, obviously, doing it. Should I trick someone into longeing me?

The good news is, it looks like the strangles outbreak at my barn will be over soon (of course, now that I've said that, someone else will get sick), so the dressage instructor will be able to come back, and I can take a super-good lesson. Yay! Now all I have to do is figure out how to pay for it, lol.

[slc2]

You really do ride nicely, this is more a matter of working on specific things that all people are working on at this stage.

You really should hug your horse, because he is a very, very good teacher. Unlike a lot of horses, he isn't faking it and fooling you. He's read all the books on classical dressage, I guess, at some point in his life, and he is behaving like he wrote one of them, LOL. Lucky you - because you will learn to ride much better because of it. He's extremely nice about it, but he is a professor. A damned good one too.

Please - stop getting down on yourself. Everyone goes through these things. I don't think getting discouraged, expected something well beyond the stage you're at, or expecting to leapfrog over the stages others all go through helps.

As one trainer told me, 'You don't suck any worse than anyone else, let's get to work'. And as another said, 'once we get done fixing this you can learn to suck in a whole NEW way!' We master one stage and just move on to the next. LOL. Dressage isn't for people who get discouraged easily, or for people who have unrealistic expectations.

The bottom line is that everyone has to learn dressage, if they want to do dressage. It's really that simple. It takes time and a lot of work.

When you ride bareback, you sit in a chair seat, with your knees drawn way up so that your thigh is almost horizontal, and your legs are not under your hips. This is what most people do when riding bareback. It's not unusual.

The very marked thing about you is, that when you have your stirrups, you 'love them too much'. You get WAY up out of the saddle, braced on the stirrups, leaning forward over your hands.

When you ride bareback you don't lean anywhere near as forward, and the fact that your knees are drawn up so high is why you can sit better the trot on bareback, because you're sitting on your rear when you ride bareback!!

The way the sitting trot goes so wrong in the saddle is that you are not sitting on your butt. Your butt's out behind you, and you're leaned forward. Your leg is not in the chair seat position when you're on the saddle - in fact, your leg goes way too far back as you tip forward.

On the saddle, someone needs to take your stirrups away from you so you can't brace in your stirrups, climb up out of the saddle and lean forward.

You need to sit on your seat like you do when bareback, but you need to drop your leg down loose and let it hang down so your hips and thighs are very loose and relaxed.

You never let go your leg from the hip/thigh down, this is basically the problem both in bareback and in the saddle, that your hip is so tight.

there are many exercises a dressage instructor can have you do that will help you get your hip opened up. Stretches on the ground where you turn your toes in and open the hip can help, 'thigh stretches' on the saddle (lif your leg away from the saddle so it is not touching anything from the thigh down, etc).

On bareback, your leg is pulled up so your thighs are almost horizontal. Same on the saddle, you're braced on your leg.

When you ride with the saddle, you brace in your stirrups and lean your upper body markedly forward, with your seat and hips pushed out behind you. For a dressage position, it is not correct. Your upper body moves forward when you post so that your forearm is angled downward, instead of on the horizontal or nearer to it.

You are putting your horse in a frame, by working the reins back and forth. His head moves constantly up and down during the trot work with an inconisistent contact with the reins, because he is 'in a frame' rather than reaching to the bit. When he puts his head up, you work your inside rein and he puts his head back down. When you change direction, he pokes his head up and out.

People, when they ride like this, begin to believe the solution to any unsteadiness of the head is to be lighter and softer and less intrusive with the reins. They believe that, because when riding like this, the horse is constantly bouncing into the bit and bouncing off it. They believe, and are encouraged to believe here on these bulletin boards, that this is fixed, not by sending the horse with the legs forward to a quiet steady hand, but by doing even less with the reins, by becoming ever more evasive, tentative with the reins, and most importantly, there IS no quiet hand to push the horse to! There is nothing! The horse can't even FIND something to connect with, because the rider is being so tentative with the reins! The horse reaches and his 'quiet hand' goes somewhere else! He reaches for that and no! Damn! Where did it go? He has no idea.

The answer to this is the same for everyone.

Getting your horse to be accepting the bit, rather than 'in a frame', does not mean throwing away your reins or not doing anything with your hands.

What it means is that instead of the horse trotting along very quietly, putting his head down each time the rider tweaks the reins, the horse moves along energetically, reaching for the bit, pushing against the bit. The rider has a 'connection',.

How firm or light that connection is is determined somewhat by the horse's conformation and build and stage of training, but there is a limit to how correct any extreme can be. For example, if the rider is exhausted when he gets off, and feels his arms must be stretched out to five feet long, it's probably a wee bit too firm. If a lower level horse in the early stages of training feels 'like a feather', and 'doesn't touch the bit', it is more likely due to him not 'accepting the bit' or 'facing the bit' sufficiently, than to true 'lightness', which, if one wants it to happen with straightness and correctness, isn't the first goal with the younger or less schooled horse.

The first goal with the lower level horse is a 'connection'. A steady connection to the bit that until we get that, we aren't going to worry about a whole lot of other stuff!

What you do with your hands is not to get them to drop the bit (that's what getting a frame is all about but it isn't what we want in dressage(, but to just finesse the quality of that connection with the bit, and KEEP that connection.

You should even have that connection when you stretch the horse down. When you stretch in the video, there is no contact. That isn't right. Stretching needs to be the horse following the connection right down. It's as if he's a tube of toothpaste and you just push with your legs and make his neck stretch out longer, and you feed the rein out so he always is connected and facing the bit.

Think of a 'following release' or an 'automatic release' over a jump. The rider follows the horse's neck with his arms, from the shoulder. He gives to allow the neck to come forward, to stretch, just like a jumper rider. He doesn't drop the rein contact and teach the horse a trick by association to drop his neck down! He actually MAKES The stretch by pushing with his leg and doing that 'following'.

If you go forward enough, energetically enough, and give the horse something to meet with your hand, the energy starts to flow to the bit. You can feel the head get steadier.

The key is that the hand is STEADY. It doesn't mean you never work your fingers or bend, it just means that your first priority is having your horse face the bit every second.

An instructor can tell you how long your rein should be, but there's a place you give the horse to go -a reasonable place, not some place forced by a very short tight rein, but A PLACE. And you just keep pushing him to that place, with your legs. Reiner Klimke was the one who said 'just push to the quiet hand'.

Instead of getting him to put his head down by tweaking the reins back and forth, it's almost as if you could shut your eyes and not be able to see anything of where the horse's head is, and your hands attempt to finesse the quality of that connection, rather than get the horse to put his head down. You really don't want to look at that. Rather, you feel it. And what you do with your hands is supple, and then go forward. What you're doing is working your hands, but you don't go forward. Any suppling you do needs to be not to get the head down, but to make a quality in the contact that you want to FEEL.

What happens is the horse otherwise is constantly bouncing on and off the connection, lifting his head, poking his nose, in, up, down, he is never steady, and it shows the most when one changes direction, somewhat when one does a transition.

But watching you, I can see why your transition doesn't work out. It's not just that he's in a frame, it's also that you aren't, as they say, 'riding the transition'. It really is as if you continue to act like you want to go forward, and you use your leg (more so with the less trained horse), and you do use your hands, yes, frankly, mickeydoodle is being misinterpreted here, rather than actually being wrong....lbut the key with dressasge is that it just isn't so easy as to just not use y9our reins - that would be easy. Any moron could do that. We have to do something far harder, use all our aids - rein, seat, leg, just like playing a musical instrument, with all the aids working together. You wouldn't get anywhere playing a saxophone if you didn't have any keys on the instrument, either.

In other words, you do the same things we all do! Welcome to the club.

Work with the instructor to get your hips to open up. Work with the instructor to find out how to move to the next stage, where you have acceptance of the bit, and then a real connection, and finally, the horse on the bit. The good news is, you are ready.

[amastrike]

Thanks for the novel, slc (no sarcasm there). My horse is the best, and don't worry, he gets lots of hugs (and treats!). I'm looking forward to riding tomorrow and trying some things out and seeing how it goes. Some of what you said, I knew, but obviously knowing and doing aren't the same here. Stirrups--I know, I brace off them when sitting trot.. I usually prefer to drop them to avoid it. Stretching--I think I drop the reins too much because I don't want to encourage him to go BTV (and that clearly works so well for us), but obviously the solution is forward and contact, not loose reins. If you have any suggestions for specific exercises I should try, let me know.

Just to show how wonderfully perfect and amazing my horse is:
Naptime (http://www.new.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=36019327&l=69547&id=15700421)
Seriously the most comfortable thing ever (http://www.new.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=36019328&l=0c1e8&id=15700421)
Hehehe (http://www.new.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=36019329&l=f0c38&id=15700421)

[nhwr]

Your horse will never be truly forward if you continue to avoid contact. You are essentially rewarding him for going improperly. Forward means the horse moves forward with all parts, not just his hind end. He should stretch over his topline to seek forward contact with the bit.

Ride the hind end, make it as easy as possible for him to lift his back and maintain appropriate contact with the bit no matter where his face is.

[thatmoody]

Argh, this was excellent advice for me, as it's the same thing my trainer is commenting on with my boy. I have the benefit of someone standing there yelling at me to shorten my reins and push him up to the bit, but it's still not easy to "get." I keep thinking I'm going to have this "aha" moment where all of a sudden it's easy, but it's really not for me.

I suppose it's 30 years of riding working cow horses where you nevereverever touch their mouths - a hard habit to break. Then I feel like I'm punishing him as he comes on and off the contact because my hands aren't steady enough. So I ride an older schoolmaster, and then him, just so that I have some feel of what it's SUPPOSED to feel like. That does help.

[amastrike]

I think he was a bit confused... two days ago, he was ridden normally, today it was forward forward forward. I tried some trot-walk transitions, and got one or two that weren't horrible.. not particularly good, but I definitely felt that he was going forward in the transition, not dying in it.

[GiGi]

Here's some help maybe to get your sitting trot rhythm down better even with stirrups.

I come originally from a Western background with a little hunter on the breed circut thrown in. I learned to do sitting trot on ANYTHING and make it look comfy. BUT I had a great trainer who explained it to me like this ~

Sitting trot is done in rhythm to the DOWN beat of a horse's trot not the UP beat like in a posting trot. We use a scoop down motion in a sitting trot to stick to the saddle. If you chase the UP beat you are going to get left in the air and drop down and bang the saddle. And DON'T LEAN BACK to scoop. {my own personal pet peve with dressage riders are the many I see who lean back; bad in the long run for the back and NOT proper riding}

I teach all my beginning riders to sit the trot long before posting. Its much easier for them to get the down beat/scoop thing first before learning to post. Catching the UP beat posting is much easier all around.

[amastrike]

GiGi, yeah, the dressage instructor I take lessons from described it as a "hopping" motion, which works pretty well for me. It's just so hard to keep up with my horse!


ForwardForwardForward is going pretty well. Down transitions aren't beautiful, but we're going forward into them. I've been leg-yielding to the wall, and then asking for the walk as we hit the wall. It's so hard, having to concentrate on everything--leg, step over, lift up, forward into the walk.

But the funny thing is.. I tried the canter today, just because I haven't really cantered in about a week.. it feels different and better! He felt different behind... kind of reminded me of a couple warmbloods I've ridden... the movement in his hindquarters felt smoother and floatier and thrustier than before. Talk about surprise!

[slc2]

No hopping, scooping or down beating. Just open up your hip and don't 'try' to do ANYTHING.