Horse Erased from Database??

[Libera]

I'm still trying to find out who my horse is....
I had someone who helped me and ran the numbers for me with every letter of the alphabet, but nothing matches.
She said that he might have been erased from the database if he was sold without papers at some point, could that be it?

I was going to see if TrPB (?) could help me out but if he is erased, they won't be able to help me either right? So that would be a waste of money?

[Barbara L.]

It is not uncommon for rescues organizations, or people that find homes for their Thoroughbreds, to return the foal papers to the Jockey Club with a form showing transfer of ownership in order to have the horse removed from the database.

That is exactly what I do with the horses that come into Turning For Home at Philadelphia Park. The owners or trainer (as agent) signs the papers over to me, and then as soon as I get a pile (we have 62 horses now), I return them to the Jockey Club.

It is the best protection to prevent a horse from ever appearing at a racetrack as a competitor, since the new owner cannot say "Oh, I lost the papers, please let me know how to get new ones."

Not sure about the TRPB being able to give you the answer or not, however...

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

Another way to make sure they never race without erasing them is to take a sharpie and write Do Not Race across them. That is what was on our stallions papers when we bought him off the killer truck at NH. We bred him and has wonderful sport horses by him. If you erase a nice mare she will never have babies that can be registered.

[Libera]

So if that is what happened to my horse there's no way to find out who he is??
I'm just looking for his real name and age, not planning on racing or anything...

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

If you ever find out who his is dam is, you may be able to find him through her.

[Libera]

No way to find his dam if I don't know his name tho... :no:

[SleepyFox]

Okay, I've never heard of a horse being "removed from the database." You can turn a horse's papers back in to the JC and the horse will be officially sold or transferred without pedigree. But, I don't think the JC will just vanish the horse's records.

Writing on the papers does not prevent a horse from racing. That's defacing the papers and the new owners can obtain a duplicate set.

[Laurierace]

Another way to make sure they never race without erasing them is to take a sharpie and write Do Not Race across them. That is what was on our stallions papers when we bought him off the killer truck at NH. We bred him and has wonderful sport horses by him. If you erase a nice mare she will never have babies that can be registered.

That is completely ineffective. You can write anything you want to on them and the only thing you will acheive is defacing the papers. The only way to ensure the horses do not race again is to return the papers to the jockey club so they no longer have a pedigree.

[halo]

I dont think returning the papers on a horse removes him from the database; it simply keeps a new set of papers from being issued. I know of a major stakes winner that had his papers returned to the Jockey Club, as they didnt want him racing again, and he's still in there. It doesnt "unregister" them, it just in effect "closes" the registration so papers can't be re-issued.

[summerhorse]

I believe they just put them down as deceased. But they do not erase them, that would wreck havoc with pedigrees! =)

[Libera]

So...it would still make sense to pay trpb for a search?

I don't want his papers, I just want to know more about the horse. I don't even know his age for sure!

[EponaRoan]

http://www.jockeyclub.com/registry.asp?section=3#eighteen

18. SOLD WITHOUT PEDIGREE

A. Any owner who desires a horse no longer to be considered a Thoroughbred for racing or breeding purposes must promptly surrender the Certificate of Foal Registration to The Jockey Club within 60 days after the date of sale with an accompanying notation that the horse was transferred or sold "without pedigree." The notation must be signed by the owner or authorized agent and indicate the date of disposition. In the event the owner or authorized agent surrenders the Certificate of Foal Registration to The Jockey Club in the above manner more than 60 days after the date of transfer or sale, then the new owner or transferee must also submit a statement that the horse was purchased or received without pedigree.
B. Upon receipt in The Jockey Club Registry Office, the respective Certificate of Foal Registration will be cancelled. Once the registration is cancelled, the horse cannot be reinstated into the registry, and a Duplicate Certificate of Foal Registration will not be issued.
C. Notations upon a Certificate of Foal Registration which do not clearly indicate transferred or sold without pedigree, including notations such as "not to be raced," shall not result in cancellation of the Certificate of Foal Registration. Such notations could be regarded as defacing the Certificate of Foal Registration. Submission to The Jockey Club of any such defaced Certificate of Foal Registration may cause a Corrected Certificate of Foal Registration to be issued.

[Evalee Hunter]

Another way to make sure they never race without erasing them is to take a sharpie and write Do Not Race across them. That is what was on our stallions papers when we bought him off the killer truck at NH. We bred him and has wonderful sport horses by him. If you erase a nice mare she will never have babies that can be registered.

Your information is absolutely, totally INCORRECT. Writing "do not race" across papers have NO EFFECT on whether the horse races. The horse can be raced if those papers are presented. The JC considers that a "defacement" of papers, not a directive of what to do with a horse. This has even been tried through the court system, at least in the state of Delaware, and the horse can still race.

Furthermore, a rescue in all liklihood wants to keep a mare from ever being bred, so if "erasing" her accomplishes this, they are probably quite happy about it. In general, rescued horses are not available for breeding in an attempt to keep the number of unwanted/un-needed horses down, thus reducing slaughter.

[jengersnap]

Libera, the first letter of the tattoo tells the year your horse was born, so you can still figure out age. Is it possible you have a standardbred, qh or other breed that races? You may want to try those organizations as well.

And reiterating the "do not race" thing on the papers means nothing, it's the same as writing "not real money" on a dollar bill. You just defaced the document, but you do not devalue it. Sorry. If you're letting a horse go and never want to see it on the track, either keep the papers, return the papers, or do not sign over the papers. The latter does have the possibility of forgery down the line, but at least you made some effort and they'd be the ones doing something illegal.

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

Sorry to cause such a backlash, one person posted and the rest jumped all over it.

I was told over twenty years ago when I purchased the horse and questioned about the writing all over his papers. He came from Delaware Park and I was trying to find out more about him. Needless to say we never raced him and he has had a happy home with us for the last twenty years, as he is 26 now.

[War Admiral]

Yeah, but EponaRoan, DOES that mean they actually erase the horse from the database? I've never heard of that and boy will I start assembling the ranks to cause an almighty stink with the JC if it is true!!

[ArtilleryHill]

I'm sure they do not erase the horse from the database. As someone said earlier, that would cause havoc with pedigrees and effectively make their whole EquineLine product useless to breeders and bloodstock agents, as it would only be providing partial information.

If someone will give me the old registered name of an allegedly "erased" Thoroughbred who actualy competed in a sanctioned race, I'm pretty sure I could find said horse still on EquineLine's PPs. Anyone wanting to try that experiment, either post here with a suggested name to search or PM me and I'll see what happens.

[Jessi P]

Sorry to cause such a backlash, one person posted and the rest jumped all over it.

I was told over twenty years ago when I purchased the horse and questioned about the writing all over his papers. He came from Delaware Park and I was trying to find out more about him. Needless to say we never raced him and he has had a happy home with us for the last twenty years, as he is 26 now.


Showponymom, that was a perfectly legit way to do it at the time you got your horse. However, in the last 10-15 years the new rule is applied because anyone who really wanted to run a certain horse with "not to race" written on the papers could simply request a duplicate set of papers. The new way was created to let the JC know that "there is no doubt that I own Dobbin Dancer and am selling him WITHOUT pedigree" so that the horse will not be raced or a set of duplicate papers issued. :winkgrin:

[Barbara L.]

Actually, you are right--that taking the horse's registration number out of the database would create havoc--but that is how it was put to me when I spoke to the Jockey Club about it. To us, all we really care about is that a new owner cannot go to the JC and say they lost the papers, and then have them reissued. Perhaps they "red flag" the registration number (I have heard they do this, too) if the papers are returned with the proper paperwork. Sorry to get everyone so excited!

And it is true, that most retirement or rescues (Turning for Home included) will not allow a Thoroughbred mare to be bred to make racehorse babies. Why would you want to create a new horse if the mare was a giveaway? The chances of the rescue getting the offspring back in three or four years is probable, and the chances that the offspring will have inherited the mare's "value" (ZERO), is also likely, if you are a student of genetics.

Check out all of our adoptable horses at www.patha.org, and click on Turning For Home. We are getting more everyday because of eligibility changes. I'd be happy to tell you about any of them.

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

Showponymom, that was a perfectly legit way to do it at the time you got your horse. However, in the last 10-15 years the new rule is applied because anyone who really wanted to run a certain horse with "not to race" written on the papers could simply request a duplicate set of papers. The new way was created to let the JC know that "there is no doubt that I own Dobbin Dancer and am selling him WITHOUT pedigree" so that the horse will not be raced or a set of duplicate papers issued. :winkgrin:

Thanks Jessi, I thought for a minute I had gone crazy. When we inquired about it (which was twenty years ago) we where told it was a legit thing. I didn't realize they had changed the rule. Thanks for the clarification. :winkgrin:

[EponaRoan]

Yeah, but EponaRoan, DOES that mean they actually erase the horse from the database? I've never heard of that and boy will I start assembling the ranks to cause an almighty stink with the JC if it is true!!

I've never heard of such a thing. The horse existed and should still be reflected in the produce of the dam, etc as well as any race records, sales records, etc.

I would like to see the Jockey Club give some sort of option of 'not for racing' and/or 'not for breeding' registrations though. That way the horse could maintain his/her paperwork, but not be used in a way that was not intended. I will not hold my breath waiting for this to happen. :cool:

[jengersnap]

Actually, you are right--that taking the horse's registration number out of the database would create havoc--but that is how it was put to me when I spoke to the Jockey Club about it. To us, all we really care about is that a new owner cannot go to the JC and say they lost the papers, and then have them reissued. Perhaps they "red flag" the registration number (I have heard they do this, too) if the papers are returned with the proper paperwork. Sorry to get everyone so excited!

And it is true, that most retirement or rescues (Turning for Home included) will not allow a Thoroughbred mare to be bred to make racehorse babies. Why would you want to create a new horse if the mare was a giveaway? The chances of the rescue getting the offspring back in three or four years is probable, and the chances that the offspring will have inherited the mare's "value" (ZERO), is also likely, if you are a student of genetics.



Ah, but say there is a stallion out there that did fairly well on the track. Say, half a mil and a son of so-and-so. With PA's lucrative breeding program, a farm gives him a shot and stands him a couple of seasons. He ends up not very fertile, and only a few foals are born. They hit the track and are so-so. They decide to geld him and find him a riding home. They do not want this once-nice horse finding his way back on the track. Sure, he might be able to pick up a few checks in the claiming levels somewhere, but that's not what they want to see happen to him. So they send back the papers. What happens to the foals' registrations? Gaps in the pedigree does not sound like a logical JC thing to me.

Regardless, keep up the great work you've begun with your turning for home program.

[sk_pacer]

I dont know about jc protocol, but Standardbred Canada and USTA expunge race records of all but the superier/legendary horses a few years after racing and all you can get is a summary of the record - gives best time, money earned, number of races and how many wins, nothing more. The name never leaves the data base, as I have checked back and traced horses to earlier than Hambletonian 10, all the way back to Bryerly Turk and Darley Arabian.......so names never go from our data base. At any rate that would mess up sales catalogues, and leave holes in the pedigree regardless of breed - I dont know about anyone else, but I DO like to know what else a mare has produced beyond the horse on the block, or it's sire or dam.

[Libera]

Libera, the first letter of the tattoo tells the year your horse was born, so you can still figure out age. Is it possible you have a standardbred, qh or other breed that races? You may want to try those organizations as well.


Unfortunately, that is the only part of the tattoo that I can't decipher. I thought I had it, but turned out to be a different horse.
He is 100% sure a TB, so he must be in there somewhere.

I'm going to have TRPB try to find out who he is, I just wanted to make sure they don't really "erase" the horses.
I had never heard of this and it sounded really strange with pedigrees getting messed up and all, but I don't know much about JC and how it all works...

[Showponymom Aefvue Mid Atlantic Division]

You probably can tell how old he is, so just try around a few years before and after. If you have the sequence of numbers right, you should be able to pin him down.