Ever had this cross canter issue??

[Blackberry Farm]

I'm working with a OTTB mare that has done a few events successfully in the past at training level, but has been hanging out in the pasture for a couple of years. She's a big girl- 16.3 and leggy so her balance is not great, as her condition is not great. Background aside and she is sound: on her back and on the lunge she's swapping to a cross canter- or starting off in a cross canter in both directions. I think it's best if I stick to the lunge to work with this issue- to take me out of the equation. I've been asking her to canter, and letting her go a bit when she's on the correct lead, and stopping then asking again when she swaps, or starts off, to cross canter.
The idea that she does this in both directions easily has me puzzled. I see it in the pasture too.
Any thoughts on ways to fix the issue????

Thanks! ;)

[cevent]

You said she's been out of work for a couple years and isn't in great condition so I think it's a weakness issue and in time with more work and conditioning, it will sort itself out! :) A friend of mine has a OTTB that she's been working with who did the same thing. He hadn't done much in a year or so and would start on the correct lead, and then swap to a cross canter, or would switch completely to the other lead. She's been working with him for some months now and he doesn't do it anymore. I think your smart about trying to stay out of the way and work on the lunge, but she'll have to be strong enough to stay on the proper lead with you on her. If it was me, if she stays on the correct lead for a few strides, or half a circle, thats great, end on that (Your rides probably arn't that long anyways if she's not very fit). If she switches right away, trot, pick up the correct lead for a stride or two and then trot again. It's going to take some time. If you have access to hacking with some hills, take advantage of it, it will definitely help!

[Sebastian]

Nothing to fix. She's just not fit. It's common and will go away as she builds strength. Just make sure when you ride to work on straightness, that will help her hold the lead.

Seb :)

[lstevenson]

Are you lunging in side reins? If not, I would definitely add them. And make sure they are even. The idea is to help keep the horse straight on the circle. There are many causes of cross cantering, but the rider/lunger turning the horse's head too much to the inside is a common cause of swapping out behind. As too much bend in the neck throws their haunches out of the circle. When riding, think counterbend.

[EventerAJ]

My old horse was an ex-barrel racer-- he cross-cantered horribly for years. In his case, it was how he learned to balance himself; throw the shoulders into a turn, fling the haunches out. It was partly a strength issue, but very much a mental one as well. Whenever he felt unbalanced, or tense, he swapped behind. The first couple of months, he could not canter one complete circle, or through one end of the arena, without cross-cantering.

I did LOTS of lunging in sidereins. Start slowly, with lots of transitions-- trot before the horse becomes unbalanced and swaps. On the lunge, he learned to "stand up" without me exacerbating the problem. I learned to sit very centered; any leaning or weight-shifting would cause him to change. It was important, though, that I *did not* lock my hip... if I got stiff, he tensed and swapped. Several instructors told me to try lateral work (shoulder/haunches-in) but we were too green for that to do much good... it just created more tension. Counter-bend, and eventually counter-canter was a huge help-- it taught me to control his shoulders, and greatly improved straightness and strength.

It was over a year before we could canter an entire course on the proper leads. Clinicians were concerned that he had hock/back problems, but physically he was fine... cross-cantering was just his coping mechanism. We learned to deal with it though; he has no problem cross-cantering into a 3'6" triple, as long as I kept my leg on. :) Nine years later, cross-cantering is almost completely gone, and he can compensate for rider leaning, tight turns, etc.

[Divine Comedy]

I had horrible problems with it when I first got my gelding. He was ok if I let him canter around on the buckle (he came from a hunter barn) but as soon as I tried to gather up his frame, he'd swap or flip his hind end over. And back and forth and back and forth. I did a lot of slowly picking up his frame, a little more each day. One day he finally just...got it. He'd still do it a bit, especially while jumping, but not nearly as badly.

It really improved this summer when I taught him how to counter canter. It was a project, I'd just go out to the field and try and canter a ginormous circle on the counter canter, eventually picking up contact. He does it fantastic now, serpentines on the same lead, you name it...and best of all, he NEVER switches his lead on the regular canter now. I think it really strengthens his hind end and I make a point of doing it every flat lesson.

[retreadeventer]

EPM. Please have her examined and treated for it. Classic symptom.

[goeslikestink]

Nothing to fix. She's just not fit. It's common and will go away as she builds strength. Just make sure when you ride to work on straightness, that will help her hold the lead.

Seb :)

yeap rather than cirlce work use the full length of the arena and work on the horse i wlak and trot with plenty of transitions with the half halt stride by shortening and lenthening your paces
so the hrose becomes balanced and striaght getting the hinds underneath her
working all the passes of walk ie free walk meduim walk and extended walk then trot medium trot working trot and extended trot

circle work only will put extra strains and stress on unfit or undeveloped mussles

always start the horse is walk and if using the half halt stride as she a tb and ottb
would nesscarily be tuaght how to school, sothe half halt stride needs to be practiced in walk by wlaking a few strides then ask until she got it,, do down gears first so its easier for the horse to learn-- ie walk halt halt to halt-- theres nowhere esle for the horse to go but stop

like i said it easier for the horse to pick it up theen once learn move it to up gears and use it in everysingle trnasition vary the work fro trot to free walk or medium trot to extended trot etc so hrse dont get bored and have a good game plan ie make each lesson different ie use figures of eights but go large horse like i said is ottb and been out in the fields
dont attempt to go small until you gone large and wide

the indication that this horse hasnt done much is with her hind legs and people have tried to do events but have fialed more than liekly and thats why shes done nothing since

what they fail to realise is
that weight of a jockey to us as rider is different same to is the weight of the saddles from racing to english to western all weight differently and all lay on the orse back different and therefore can cuase prssure sores or bad back becuase people havent thought of that nor considered it
so then the horse would have to have a few months off until back healed and then be brought back into work slowly and the best was is via long reining so the horse learns basic commands is going striaght and is getting balanced and is fucused

you cant go bendy bendy till the horse learns straight and balanced and forwards

then theres another part to an ottb horse
there triaig is for the horse to run, so therefore the horse doesnt have what we call schooling only tuaght to run, ie via gong out yes they are more than liekly not to be beothered with traffic and such or loading as they have to get to the gallops via transport or ridden to local gallops they do known trot and walk but are galloped up the gallops
some point to pointers trian horses va cantering a set amount of ways one then the other in a sand school then take them out on x/c courses some train with tredmills and do both or all three either way the horse is tuaght to run

i know i have had a few-- a volccanite kimblewick is best bit for this job its a tad stronger than a snaffle
work the horse on long lining -- then add the saddle so the horse get used to the weigth and how it lays, then add you
if you cant long line go to a driving instructor or dressage or 3 day eventer trianer

dont let he horse antispate your moves its been taught to run so your aids and you have got to be quicker think smarter

the changing of legs behind is lack of strength and balance horse hasnt done much as unfit and more than likely unschooled

[yellowbritches]

Swapping out is a sign of more than just EPM, so I wouldn't be so sure she's "sound". The fact that she does it in the pasture bothers me.

But if she really is healthy and sound, I would say she is just weak and needs proper fitness work, NOT lungeing (very hard on their bodies. A little is ok, but we rarely do it more than a couple of days in a row, even with green horses, and never for very long). I'd get on her and RIDE her, hacking, preferably over hills if you've got them. Also make sure you're legs are working in the canter work and that you don't just go nuetral once she's cantering.

[snoopy]

Are you lunging in side reins? If not, I would definitely add them. And make sure they are even. The idea is to help keep the horse straight on the circle. There are many causes of cross cantering, but the rider/lunger turning the horse's head too much to the inside is a common cause of swapping out behind. As too much bend in the neck throws their haunches out of the circle. When riding, think counterbend.



:yes::yes::yes: I cannot begin to count the number of times I have seen someone lunge in side reins where the inside rein was far to short. In my experience I would adjust the inside rein to allow FLEXION and NOT demand BEND in the neck and then one hole longer on the outside (if needed) to allow for more stretch. Lesley is correct in saying THINK counter bend or in this case prevent the horse from swinging quarters to the outside with too much bend to the inside.
I have seen some disasterous results from poorly/incorrectly fitted side reins.
Fitting side reins correctly will acheive some wonderful resuilts...get them even slightly wrong and oh boy will you end up with problems!!!
I am not a fan of lunging for long periods...it is hard on body and mind.


Cross cantering is a balance/weekeness problem...just make sure that it is not the rider causing the problem.

[mythical84]

I'm gonna agree with YB on this one. I would ease on the lunging and ride her more. Lunging is very hard on their bodies, and also I feel as though you have more control of their bodies when you're on them. Of course this is assuming that you're in proper balance.

In any case, my mare did this ALL the time. It was her evasion tool. If I got too handsy, or too this or too that, she would swap out behind. Let me tell you, it taught me how to sit up tall and straight!

For her, she had a known SI issue. The key was to keep her nice and fit. The fitter she was, the sounder she was. I would give her from Thanksgiving to Christmas off every year, and would schedule her mesotherapy treatment right after the new year to help put her back into work.

[Long Shadow Farm]

I have to agree with the fitness issue also. My young OTTB was really bad about swapping out the behind last year (especially from the left lead to the right on a left circle). I have noticed that this fall he is getting much better about not doing it. I think it has a lot to do with him finally starting to grow into his body and him getting physically stronger and able to hold the lead better. Not to say he still doesn't do it, but he is getting able to hold the lead longer and longer. And I think working him on the longe line didn't help a bit. I have found that more work on the flat to help him build his topline and lateral work has improved his ability to hold his lead and balance. I am not a big longe line fan though....


Bobbi

[Blackberry Farm]

Thanks to everyone who replied! I think I'm really going to get on well with eventers! :cool:
Thanks especially to: cevent, Sebastian, Eventer AJ, Divine Comedy, Yellow Britches, Mythical84, and Long Shadow Farm! ;)

I'll let you know how we progress. I do have accesses to hills, and love them for conditioning too.

TR

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Thanks to everyone who replied! I think I'm really going to get on well with eventers! :cool:
Thanks especially to: cevent, Sebastian, Eventer AJ, Divine Comedy, Yellow Britches, Mythical84, and Long Shadow Farm! ;)

I'll let you know how we progress. I do have accesses to hills, and love them for conditioning too.

TR


I'm another for lunging only in side reins....not for very long or super tight (but make sure you get her working from behind but keep the circle as large as possible)....and I would not do much cantering yet. Even though that is the gate that you are having issues....get her stronger and fitter before expecting her to hold the canter on a circle, even with out a rider. Lots of transitions and add a pole or two on the ground.

On the hills, walking them is fabulous for getting them fitter. I usually start out ponying the less fit horse up and down the hills off another horse. This lets them get a bit stronger before dealing with the weight of a rider. Especially going dowh hill (straight) can be very hard initially so bear that in mind.

I would get a vet to look at her though....while I've definately had several unfit horses who would cross canter on a lung line or undersaddle, I can't say that I've seen many that did it at liberty in the field.

[Blackberry Farm]

I had a vet look at her several weeks ago, and since the hind is weak, and I live in the southeast, we tested for EPM. My vet liked her a lot, though she's underweight...The vet and a good friend concur on the cross cantering being a fitness and or training issue. I was, however, curious what I'd hear if I tossed it onto a forum. I've lurked around, but not posted here. I've done H/J most of my life, but would like to try eventing- hopefully with this girl at some point. :D
I put her on a joint suppliment too. Mostly, her swapping comes in the ring. On the trail I don't feel it as frequently. Moreover, I only saw it once or twice in the pasture when she came in from the back forty.
I don't lunge very long, and am not big on it either; however, I feel like it helps me see when and in what state of mind she's likely to swap in back. Anyway, I really enjoyed comments and conditioning suggestions. I've been away from the side reins for about 5 years, but maybe I'll pull them out, try them a couple of times, and see what happens.
Have a great weekend!

[2TBs]

There is one issue to consider, one that took me thousands of dollars and many, many vets to figure out.

A weak sacrial illiac (sp?) joint.

My gelding has this. It can manifest it's self as a sore back in the saddle area or bad hocks. Finally my vet figured it out. When she palilates the SI joint you can see my horse "shake" out his leg and watch the muscles ripple from discomfort. (Sorry about the spelling by the way. I am very tired.)

Even with consistent hills and conditioning, he just would never be physically able to go higher than 1st level in dressage. Jumping was always hard because his hind end was so uncomfortable.

His canter was awful. I spent 9 years, many vet visits, special shoes, injections, supplements, chiropractic. You name it. He just cannot do it.

My vet says the bigger the horse the more common this problem is. So do work on hills and cavaletti and get your horse as stong as he/she can be. But be aware if *this* is the actual issue it may limit what the horse can do.

Good luck.

[ToTheNines]

I've been going through the same thing on a 7 year old App-TB. He suddenly started swapping the second day of a show last April. (He is a hunter,but I noticed this thread on this forum).

He wants to swap off behind from his right lead on a turn on course. If I put him in a round pen or lunge him, he will go a few strides on the right lead correctly, then swap behind. Actually, he is improving now, but the round pen is how I can check on him.

I spent lots of time and money making sure it was not a physical issue. I xrayed hocks and stifles, and injected both hocks, stifles, and SI, over a period of six months or so. Nothing remarkable on the xrays, and the injections made him feel wonderful, but he still was offering the swap sometimes.

His swapping also started after two things: I had been working him in a round pen, and I had switched farriers (his prior farrier retired). I have since quit working in circles, and have a third farrier, who said the second farrier had "a lot of foot" behind. His toes had gotten long and he was high on the inside.

I recently took him to a show where he did it once on each course the second day. Various trainers saw him go, and helpfully gave me their thoughts. No one thought it was physical. No tail swishing, ear pinning, or other sign of discomfort. So I am going to train his hind end, and not protect it, which had been my big question. Also, a very wonderful pro got on him, let him swap once, then rode him correctly so that he did not swap. She give me a bunch of riding and training tips. She said what the posters above said, about not letting the hind end drift out.

Thus, lately I have been doing more transitions, both change of gait and collected-normal-extended transitions. Also, a bit of counter canter both ways. Also, my new farrier has done him twice now, and likes his feet better.

Bottom line: I stopped all round pen work, I am strengthening his hind end, his back feet are better shod, and he has been injected everywhere. His hind end feels better now, and he does not have that light sort of "hoppy" feeling in back around the right turns.

Hope this helps. It has been very stressful for me -- I love this horse!

[FootPerfect]

Another suggestion: my vet had me use studs in the hind shoes to help give traction. My farrier took the smallest pair of road studs and ground them down a little bit; took the sharp edges off. Then we just put them in and left them in the hind shoes. My gelding was always fine in the stall with them since he has mats and good bedding. It was safe because the farrier ground down the studs a bit. Horse had more traction and felt much more safe, thus was able to canter more correctly and get stronger and more confident.

Something to think about. This one is an individual choice to leave the studs in but it worked great for us. Horse never hurt himself with them.

[Blackberry Farm]

I'm happy to report we're doing much better with the canter. I've been working her 5-6 days within her comfort zone, but sometimes pushing the muscles a bit without overdoing. I like to mix it up- not so much all or nothing. So, we've done some light hacks, some lunging, some w/t ring work, w/t/c ring work, w/t/c single tiny X ring work, hacking on some hills- sometimes I hand walk her downhill if it's steep...
Anyway, she's coming along in a lot of different areas- particularly relaxation and canter.

Thanks for all the great feedback, and good luck to everyone else dealing with cross canter! ;)