FEI drug cases now kapooey?

[canyonoak]

www.equinet.de

has what I believe is a new statement from FEI.

If babelfish is correct, FEI has suddenly realized that capsaicin in one form or another is in nearly every feed made throughout Europe and is also in nearly every flyspray.

And therefore, in the cases of the 4 jumper riders other than Pessoa, the capsaicin amounts found in the horses represents "environmental contamination" --the loophole Courtney K-D tried to use for the Felbinac.

So basically, the cases against these 4 jumper riders has gone kapooey.
Nothing said in the piece about Pessoa.

Here is part of the statement in German, hoping someone will go to equinet and do a real translation:

<<

Der Reiterweltverband, FEI, gerät in der Affaire um die vier Capsaicin-Fälle der Springreiter Christian Ahlmann (Marl), Bernardo Alves (Brasilien), Denis Lynch (Irland) und Tony Hansen (Norwegen) in eigene Erklärungsnot. Nachdem sich der Verdacht immer mehr erhärtet, dass das verbotenene und in ganz winzigen Mengen gefundene Capsaicin über Futtermittel des offiziellen Futterlieferanten der Olympischen Reiterspiele in Hongkong in die Pferde gelangt sein könnte, stellte sich nun heraus, dass die FEI das Futter auf das durchblutungsfördernde Mittel Capsaicin nicht untersuchen ließ. Es könne nicht ausgeschlossen werden, dass die positiven Medikationsergebnisse Folge einer Futtermittelkontamination waren, wie aus einem Untersuchungsbericht hervorgeht. Danach könnten kontaminiertes Futter und leicht capsaicinhaltige Pflegeprodukte ausgereicht haben, um im tiefen Pico- bzw. Femtogramm-Bereich ein positives Dopingergebnis zu liefern. Capsaicin ist außerdem auch zugelassener Bestandteil von Pestiziden in der EU.
Unterstützung erfahren die sofort für alle Turniere gesperrten Springreiter auch von dem bekannten deutschen Veterinär Dr. Rüdiger Brems (Wolfesing bei München). Er sagt, der Stoff Capsaicin sei natürlicher Bestandteil der Chilischote und werde auch als Cayennepfeffer häufig verwendet. Brems weiter: „Unter anderem ist Capsaicin Bestandteil sehr vieler Futtermittel für Pferde, die nahezu in jedem Reitstall verfüttert werden. Dass der Inhaltstoff einer Salbe in die Blutbahn gelangt sein soll, ist unwahrscheinlich, naheliegender ist die Aufnahme von Cayennepfeffer mit dem Futter. Bedeutet das aber für die Zukunft, dass unsere Pferde nur noch biologisch angebautes Naturfutter mit den drei Komponenten Hafer, Heu und Stroh fressen dürfen?“ Cayennepfeffer sei übrigens als „Futtermitteladditiv in der europäischen Verordnung zugelassen“.

[Mozart]

Interesting, I just checked the FEI website and there is nothing more recent than the CKD decision. Your translation is basically correct, but it states that FEI issued "clarification" note or bulletin. However, I don't see anything stating that they are overturning their suspensions.

[siegi b.]

I love it!! Can't wait to see how the FEI talks their way around this "little" fact... :-) I'm all for drug testing but not to a point where the smallest little evidence (pico and femtograms) is used as reason to disqualify. This isn't "zero drug tolerance" it's "zero environmental tolerance"!

P.S.: Oakie - the statement specifically says that capsaicin is contained in the feed that was delivered by the feed company approved for the Olympics by the FEI. :-)

[flshgordon]

If this is true, can you say LAWSUIT!!!!!!! :eek:

I am not a proponet of lawsuits, but if I had been robbed of my shot at the olympics because of something as bogus as this, I would be so pissed I couldn't see straight! :mad:

I hope they rip the FEI apart over this IF it's true!!!:yes:

[gottagrey]

So if what you say it true, then it is a terrible travesty that those jumper rider's Olympic hopes were dashed, many reputations questioned - all because of an 'enviromental contaminant" I also wondered if there could have been some cross contamination- after all some Chinese food is prepared using chilis... Sadly while during the Olympics the postive "drugging" may have landed on the front page of the Sports section, the final results might not be posted anywhere in a newspaper or if it is probably buried near the classifieds.

[canyonoak]

If I'm Ulf Walz, about now, I'm rocking in my chair, giggling quietly..

(Ulf Walz was the lawyer who represented Jessica Kuerten several times, and used exactly this fact--that the show's official supplier had a banned substance in its feed when he got Kuerten's case overturned -- and is either the lawyer or consultant for the jumper riders now).

la la la la.

FEI really needs to overhaul its adminsitration, its outlook, and its understanding of horse sport.

I nominate myself to 'splain everything to them.

LOL

[DownYonder]

FEI really needs to overhaul its adminsitration, its outlook, and its understanding of horse sport.


Like I said on the other thread - the inmates are running the asylum at FEI. What a bunch of looney tunes.

[YankeeLawyer]

www.equinet.de

has what I believe is a new statement from FEI.

If babelfish is correct, FEI has suddenly realized that capsaicin in one form or another is in nearly every feed made throughout Europe and is also in nearly every flyspray.

And therefore, in the cases of the 4 jumper riders other than Pessoa, the capsaicin amounts found in the horses represents "environmental contamination" --the loophole Courtney K-D tried to use for the Felbinac.
“.

Interesting; I made that point a number of times here.

[Mozart]

Will look forward to reading the actual FEI new release. 'Cause..either you apply a strict liability standard or you don't. How would they justify upholding CKD's suspension if they overturned the jumpers' suspension? Or are they going to uphold the suspension but lessen the penalty? That will make for some interesting reading.

The only way I can see that they can logically justify overturning the jumpers' suspension (if that is in fact what they are going to do) and maintaining CKD's suspension is if they decide that they were wrong about capsaicin and rescind their prior decisions on the showjumpers. What a nightmare.

[YankeeLawyer]

Will look forward to reading the actual FEI new release. 'Cause..either you apply a strict liability standard or you don't. How would they justify upholding CKD's suspension if they overturned the jumpers' suspension? Or are they going to uphold the suspension but lessen the penalty? That will make for some interesting reading.

The only way I can see that they can logically justify overturning the jumpers' suspension (if that is in fact what they are going to do) and maintaining CKD's suspension is if they decide that they were wrong about capsaicin and rescind their prior decisions on the showjumpers. What a nightmare.

Their decisions are not particularly well-reasoned, but neither are their drug poliocies or regulations.

Note, however, that IF the PR (Person Responsible) can identify the SOURCE of the contamination, the FEI can decide that there was no violation. Courtney's problem was that she is honest, and said that she did not know how the felbinac got into Mythilus' system.

[Sister Margarita]

Their decisions are not particularly well-reasoned, but neither are their drug poliocies or regulations.

Note, however, that IF the PR (Person Responsible) can identify the SOURCE of the contamination, the FEI can decide that there was no violation. Courtney's problem was that she is honest, and said that she did not know how the felbinac got into Mythilus' system.

Rather sad, isn't it, that FEI found CKD's honesty a reason to rule on her situation in this poor manner.

They are really suggesting that horses best be in an airtight, sterile environment. There is NO way one can guarantee that a horse would not come in contact with something. Hay bales are not a natural product that can have any number of plants growing in them; shavings, straw as well. No one can guarantee that there is not a forbidden plant or contamination due to the number of situations that pass over these items before they ever reach a horse's mouth, or skin.

I remember a well known O judge stating that judges are called judges because they must use "JUDGEMENT". Unfortunately, the FEI does not have the ability to reason or show judgement, and must fall back on a very unrealistic rule to support their very flawed drug rule logic.

Don't get me wrong, I am very anti-drug for any performance horse. I know that too many abuses can happen, but for all the authority the FEI has, one would think they could figure out that 14 nanograms is not theraputic and use that as a consideration.

They've dealt themselves a black eye by showing how little they can process in real life.

[Bats79]

So does this mean that every one can go back to spraying capsaicin on their horses legs so that it hurts to touch a rail because capsaicin is also in fly spray? Lovely. :(

[username]

if this is slightly "off" I apologize, but...

this past summer I was so swarmed by flies that I sprayed myself with horse fly spray. my skin got red and stung and I had to go wash it off. figured it also bothers my oldest horse who has suddenly developed an aversion to fly spray (only fly spray!). it the "banned substance" in evry brand? forget drug testing - should it be used on our horses at all?

[YankeeLawyer]

So does this mean that every one can go back to spraying capsaicin on their horses legs so that it hurts to touch a rail because capsaicin is also in fly spray? Lovely. :(

They have heat-sensing technology that was supposed to have been, but was not, used at the Olympics that can detect the use of chemical rapping agents, including capsaicin. In addition, they do a physical inspection of the horses' legs at the competition.
Not to mention that presumably they could come up with acceptable and unacceptable levels of various substances.

Among the problems with the rules is that they encourage cheating and lying. Inadequate security, for example, is expressly not permitted as a defense, so someone can tamper with another's horse and know the rider will be deemed liable for the resultant positive unless the rider happened to know exactly who did the tampering. It encourages lying because if that same rider were to convince, for example, her groom to take the blame for the incident, that rider would have a chance of being exonerated. As far as I can tell, the rules have proven most effective at catching inadvertent and non-performance enhancing uses of medications, and I strongly suspect that true cheaters can find a way to cheat and get away with it (as they do at racetracks all the time).

[YankeeLawyer]

if this is slightly "off" I apologize, but...

this past summer I was so swarmed by flies that I sprayed myself with horse fly spray. my skin got red and stung and I had to go wash it off. figured it also bothers my oldest horse who has suddenly developed an aversion to fly spray (only fly spray!). it the "banned substance" in evry brand? forget drug testing - should it be used on our horses at all?

No, it is not in every brand, but many pesticides used in fly sprays are carcinogenic or, at the very least, highly irritating to the skin, so I believe capsaicin is far from the biggest issue posed by trying fly spray on yourself.

[YankeeLawyer]

Will look forward to reading the actual FEI new release. 'Cause..either you apply a strict liability standard or you don't. .

Actually, if they were applying a true "strict liability" standard, there would nonetheless be defenses available to the respondent, including defenses such as environmental contamination or tampering by a third party. The FEI, however, appears to apply more of an absolute liability standard, and furthermore is at times arbitrary in its application.

[slc2]

I think the whole 'person responsible' definition really does mean it's an absolute, not just a strict, liability.

I don't think such a rule even addresses 'fault' or even 'guilt', in the sense that most people think of it. It's just, 'the horse tested positive for drugs. The responsible person gets fined. Very simple'.

[retrofit]

I'm all for drug testing but not to a point where the smallest little evidence (pico and femtograms) is used as reason to disqualify. This isn't "zero drug tolerance" it's "zero environmental tolerance"!

I totally agree with this statement and I don't understand why it is so difficult to define allowable limits.

[yaya]

How would they justify upholding CKD's suspension if they overturned the jumpers' suspension?

CKD's suspension involved an entirely different drug.

[Madeline]

How does this "defense" hold up, considering that at least some of the riders confessed to using Equi-Block, which contains capsaicin? Those horses were clearly not victims of "environmental contamination." They were treated with a forbidden substance.

[grayarabpony]

So does this mean that every one can go back to spraying capsaicin on their horses legs so that it hurts to touch a rail because capsaicin is also in fly spray? Lovely. :(

But don't vet examine these horses before and after? Wouldn't there be blistering on the skin, or is less capsaicin needed than that?

I don't know, but many of these horses have such long careers, it seems a little hard to believe that these top horses are having capsaicin sprayed on their legs. At other venues, yes, I believe it.

[grayarabpony]

They have heat-sensing technology that was supposed to have been, but was not, used at the Olympics that can detect the use of chemical rapping agents, including capsaicin. In addition, they do a physical inspection of the horses' legs at the competition.
Not to mention that presumably they could come up with acceptable and unacceptable levels of various substances.

Among the problems with the rules is that they encourage cheating and lying. Inadequate security, for example, is expressly not permitted as a defense, so someone can tamper with another's horse and know the rider will be deemed liable for the resultant positive unless the rider happened to know exactly who did the tampering. It encourages lying because if that same rider were to convince, for example, her groom to take the blame for the incident, that rider would have a chance of being exonerated. As far as I can tell, the rules have proven most effective at catching inadvertent and non-performance enhancing uses of medications, and I strongly suspect that true cheaters can find a way to cheat and get away with it (as they do at racetracks all the time).



Good lord they have heat-sensing technology but didn't use it? And at the same time they are trying to disqualify horses for having nano amounts of something in their system?

Can someone tell me if there is a report of the concentration of the banned substances found in the horses' blood?

[poltroon]

Fascinating.

[grayarabpony]

Fascinating.

OK that was way too cryptic. :lol: Elaborate please.

[poltroon]

OK that was way too cryptic. :lol: Elaborate please.

It's just so popcorn worthy. We started out with the FEI all-a-bluster that this was clear evidence that the jumpers were lathering their horse's legs with capsaicin, that there was no other reason it could be used, even though they found nothing when the legs were examined...

The whole "pre test" that did not include capsaicin, like they were deliberately attempting to catch some capsaicin positives...

The "zero tolerance" ! All you riders should be more careful! You are responsible!

To...

Oh. It seems we may have contaminated the horses ourselves.

Yep. Fascinating. I'm going to need more popcorn. I think I'll sprinkle it with a little chipotle.

[Fixerupper]

yup...what she said :)

[grayarabpony]

I agree -- the situation is moronic.

Sprinkling some chipolte on the popcorn now....

[carolprudm]

So does this mean that every one can go back to spraying capsaicin on their horses legs so that it hurts to touch a rail because capsaicin is also in fly spray? Lovely. :(
Capsaicin is a counter irritant,used to increase blood circulation. In some cases it can also increase skin sensitivity. However, at those concentrations I strongly suspect the horse would be showing behavioral changes, especially since they have boots applied over and touching the supposedly overly sensitive areas

[Mozart]

Actually, if they were applying a true "strict liability" standard, there would nonetheless be defenses available to the respondent, including defenses such as environmental contamination or tampering by a third party. The FEI, however, appears to apply more of an absolute liability standard, and furthermore is at times arbitrary in its application.

Does the FEI state anywhere what the standard of liability is?
Also, I checked the website again today, no mention of this "clarification" re: the jumpers.