Experienced Trainers - Help find an alt. route to basic dressage work on EPSM horse

[nero]

So cutting long story short - have moved my fellow to new whizz bang facility (barn) and am going to have a crack at bringing him into light work myself. Has EPSM, had two and a half years in a paddock but with new serious no statch diet and light work I believe I can give it a shot and make him a solid trail horse with some light dressage work now and then, maybe even a jump or two.

My goal is to get him round and working from behind without the head bobbing, tantrums and explosions and eventual ploughing around on the forehand because I don't want to fight the horse in the more round frame. We get this when he is asked to start work normally, i.e ten minutes longe then some long and low walk and trot and then asking for more round in a higher frame. It just doesn't work, most days the horse gets upset and then dangerous.

Had an amazing cowboy get on him recently and really ask for engagement and wouldn't let him escape the work, he did lateral stuff, rein back and required complete straightness. There was some hairy moments, but once the horse relaxed and gave he was super, I got on and he was magic. Now I do not have the skill or the nerve or most impotantly the heart to put that much pressure on my horse to get a result, plus doing it each time would just be counter productive in the long term.

SO I was thinking, I have a big hacking grass arena out the back, what if I was to just work the horse really forward on almost a loose rein, 50 metre circles, even try some relaxed hand gallops, get the back end working and him off the forehand and working freely in this more relaxd way, then ask for some more contact, maybe some rein back, then light wtc work with contact?

Any other thoughts, I don't want to throw the horse on the heap just yet but I need to approach his 'training' from a different angle and think laterally about this challenge.

On most days (will only ride him a few times a week, he gets too sore if worked more than that, he is in 24/7 turnout) he'll be hacked out, I just want to be able to hop on and do some basic dressage once in a while.

[Kyzteke]

Had an amazing cowboy get on him recently and really ask for engagement and wouldn't let him escape the work, he did lateral stuff, rein back and required complete straightness. There was some hairy moments, but once the horse relaxed and gave he was super, I got on and he was magic. Now I do not have the skill or the nerve or most impotantly the heart to put that much pressure on my horse to get a result, plus doing it each time would just be counter productive in the long term..

I don't think it would be counter productive at all. I would guess that your horse would resist less and less each ride. Now, you may be right that you don't have the skill to give the horse this kind of ride -- kudos for you for seeing this! So send him to the cowboy for afew months.

[dressurpferd01]

This is just MHO, but...

If you don't have the "nerve, skill, or heart" to get the horse doing what he needs to do, he's probably not the right horse for you. I understand if this is your "forever" horse or whatever, but if you can't ask him to do what needs to be done, then you either need to move on, or just let him be a trail horse.

IMHO of course.

[nero]

This is just MHO, but...

If you don't have the "nerve, skill, or heart" to get the horse doing what he needs to do, he's probably not the right horse for you. I understand if this is your "forever" horse or whatever, but if you can't ask him to do what needs to be done, then you either need to move on, or just let him be a trail horse.

IMHO of course.

hehe .......I've had him seven years, he ain't going anywhere!! He is my forever horse (anyone else would have sent him to the knackers years ago) and I just wanted to be able to have the ocassional ride in the arena, he doesn't need to do dressage at all, was just thinking there might be another way around the conventional path to getting the horse into a basic dressage frame and giving me 20 minutes in an arena now and then. The cowboy taking him on is not an option, and in the past I've had two of the best riders in the country on him as part of his training and competition career and it doesn't work long term, I have to find a way for ME to be able to get something out of the horse. EPSM is not a training issue, its a pain issue, he has all the training he just needs, his rider has to find an alternate route through the normal pain blocks to get a nice soft ride.

My question is not whether I get another horse or another trainer, I know what my goal is I am just wanting to know if anyone has any thoughts on some exercises, training techniques to encourage engagement of the hqs and softness without going the usual path.

[nero]

I don't think it would be counter productive at all. I would guess that your horse would resist less and less each ride. Now, you may be right that you don't have the skill to give the horse this kind of ride -- kudos for you for seeing this! So send him to the cowboy for afew months.
Should have explained myself better, it would be counter productive because the cowboy put an awful lot of pressure on the horse to ascertain his limits and there was extreme fireworks before the wonderfullness, that is not what I want because if I rode him like that everytime, i.e essentially a short cut, either I'd be dead or the horse would be pissed off with the world. Not interested. Plus he is a horse for leisure now, I am not inclined to throw good money after bad on training the horse, either I get him to work for me with no pain issues, gentle and happy, or he is retired for good this time.

EPSM horses, well this one at least, don't necessarily get easier and easier each ride, they can cramp up with too much work in a round frame and so get cranky and he leaps, very high, he is almost 18hh of willful wb and the more work he got with his dressage trainers the worse he got, and they were pros.

[Zen and Horses]

Well.... I am wondering why you had this cowboy get on the horse. What was the goal? If you can't ride him like that, what is the point to having the cowboy put himself and the horse in a precarious position? If the results cannot be reproduced, then what was the point of the exercise?

From your post is sounds like you well know the answer to your own questions. If there is a certain type of work that causes pain and can lead the horse to become dangerous because of that pain, then stop causing the horse pain. Give up what you (or your ego) want for the sake (have mercy) of the horse.

Learn to ride on a loopy rein and take up competitive trail riding. Perhaps your horse could excel at something else if given a chance.

[nero]

Well.... I am wondering why you had this cowboy get on the horse. What was the goal? If you can't ride him like that, what is the point to having the cowboy put himself and the horse in a precarious position? If the results cannot be reproduced, then what was the point of the exercise?

From your post is sounds like you well know the answer to your own questions. If there is a certain type of work that causes pain and can lead the horse to become dangerous because of that pain, then stop causing the horse pain. Give up what you (or your ego) want for the sake (have mercy) of the horse.

Learn to ride on a loopy rein and take up competitive trail riding. Perhaps your horse could excel at something else if given a chance.

Oh for goodness sake, why so judgemental, I used to have the horse at a place where the 'cowboy' lived and the plan was for him to try to get him used to work again, bombproof a previous competition horse and for me to trail etc a bit, hence he jumped on and was getting a feel for the horse, he put pressure on but was not cruel or nasty, my horse then was moved to another place and this gentleman can no longer help me out.

You seem a bit angry, I can assure you I have only the best interests of the horse at heart, I have no ego in this situation and I have continual mercy for the horse, thanks for you judgement anyway. Sheesh, not sure why I bothered!!

[canticle]

nero, what exactly are you feeding your guy?

You are right to go low-starch, but the diet also needs to be high fat.

[nero]

nero, what exactly are you feeding your guy?

You are right to go low-starch, but the diet also needs to be high fat.

Hi Canticle, yep low starch - on speedi beet (beet pulp product low sugar high fibre) and lucerne chaff (which I think you guys call alfalfa) handful of sun flower seeds for taste and at the moment working up to two cups of canola oil per day which will gradually increase to three cups a day, plus lucerne hay. Have heard also that a Vitamin E additive would be good too, any thoughts on that? Have done a LOT of study on the diet and exercise requirements, but Vit E is a new idea for me. Cheers

[canticle]

Hi Canticle, yep low starch - on speedi beet (beet pulp product low sugar high fibre) and lucerne chaff (which I think you guys call alfalfa) handful of sun flower seeds for taste and at the moment working up to two cups of canola oil per day which will gradually increase to three cups a day, plus lucerne hay. Have heard also that a Vitamin E additive would be good too, any thoughts on that? Have done a LOT of study on the diet and exercise requirements, but Vit E is a new idea for me. Cheers
It sounds like you are on the right track. :) I have heard of Vitamin E + Selenium supplements being helpful for EPSM horses. If you haven't checked out this site, please do: http://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/index.htm. Dr. Valentine probably knows more than anybody regarding this subject. She is also very helpful and will answer questions.

Also, I agree with your plan to bring your buy back slowly. Once he has built up some muscle, he can start to be challenged more physically. Hacking out is a great way to reintroduce him to work. EPSM is very frustrating, so don't get discouraged by slow progress or minor setbacks!

[nero]

It sounds like you are on the right track. :) I have heard of Vitamin E + Selenium supplements being helpful for EPSM horses. If you haven't checked out this site, please do: http://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/index.htm. Dr. Valentine probably knows more than anybody regarding this subject. She is also very helpful and will answer questions.

Also, I agree with your plan to bring your buy back slowly. Once he has built up some muscle, he can start to be challenged more physically. Hacking out is a great way to reintroduce him to work. EPSM is very frustrating, so don't get discouraged by slow progress or minor setbacks!
Yep very true, it IS important to remember one bad day doesn't mean its over. Couldn't agree with you more. EPSM v. frustrating, especially when he has the great days when he is just so fluid and soft only to be immediately followed by a bad one. There are some great hills on the property, should build his butt up nicely. Spring has sprung down under and I'm so looking forward to riding my big man again!

I do visit the Rural Heritage site now and again, thanks for the tip.

[wintersdelight]

Okay
This is what I do. I work my boy every other day. He gets 1-2 cups of corn il and vit e selenium. I supple
him by stretching and
loosening his top line in walk and slowly stretch neck to left and right , just like yu stretch. I then beginwarmup until he is nice and warm , trot , canter . And then ask him to come togetherand begin transitions and lots of walk breaks. I then do the harder stuff and
counter canter and a few changes in there and some
lengthnings .
Its frustrating but I found a way it works. and I enjoy the guy. make sure
he is soft and through . check saddle fit and bits. MY guy was as bad as yours. and now we are happy. And dont crank the neck in trot and canter, ride straight and forward flexion slight to inside. If he gets tense walk and supple him again. Build up to longer sessions. GIve him time.

[atr]

I'm going to recommend another (small) vet bill here...

Get his selenium levels checked. (It's a simple blood test, costs about $30 here.) If they are on the low side of normal range, put him on a Selenium and E supplement. If he's not on magnesium oxide, add that too--all these are really quite inexpensive and can help a whole lot with those crampy muscles. In fact there's a supplement called E-Se-Mag that contains all of these.

Then, just take it slow. Work on getting the fitness back at a walk and trot, lots of long, stretchy, balanced work. It's a real test of one's riding to not have them jsut dump onto the forehand doing this. Canter seems a hard gait for these guys until they are really in good shape--which is a tough place to get them to, so if I were you I'd assume you aren't going to be doing much of that for a few months.

Baby steps, as in all things horse, but even smaller baby steps for him. Good luck and don't get frustrated!

It's going to take twice as long as you think it will. And that's OK. Horses teach us patience and forbearance, if we are lucky.

[nero]

I'm going to recommend another (small) vet bill here...

Get his selenium levels checked. (It's a simple blood test, costs about $30 here.) If they are on the low side of normal range, put him on a Selenium and E supplement. If he's not on magnesium oxide, add that too--all these are really quite inexpensive and can help a whole lot with those crampy muscles. In fact there's a supplement called E-Se-Mag that contains all of these.

Then, just take it slow. Work on getting the fitness back at a walk and trot, lots of long, stretchy, balanced work. It's a real test of one's riding to not have them jsut dump onto the forehand doing this. Canter seems a hard gait for these guys until they are really in good shape--which is a tough place to get them to, so if I were you I'd assume you aren't going to be doing much of that for a few months.

Baby steps, as in all things horse, but even smaller baby steps for him. Good luck and don't get frustrated!

It's going to take twice as long as you think it will. And that's OK. Horses teach us patience and forbearance, if we are lucky.
Cantrer hard gait, ain't that the truth!!! hehe

If he is not deficient in Sel, Mag or E, would putting him on a supplement anyway be bad for him, was going to pick some up tomorrow and start him on them but if this is bad I can wait for a blood test. Thanks to you and wintersdelight for those training tips, they sound good, not to mention very sensible and doable! Patience is my middle name!!!

[atr]

Overdosing on selenium is not a good idea. However, it is harder to do than many people think. Most Se toxicity issues are seen in animals who have been grazing and browsing on plants that have a tendency to pull large quantities of Se out of the soil, rather than from supplementing. It can be a serious problem in some parts of Colorado on mountain pastureland.

But, if you look at the USDA map that supposedly shows areas high in naturally-occuring Se inthe USA, it is rather misleading. I'm in an area that is supposedly quite high, for instance, but the agricultural soils around here have been farmed for so long that most of the minerals have been leached out of the soil and our local hay is actually very low.

Try doing a search on some of EqTrainer's posts on Selenium--she is far more knowledgeable and articulate on this subject than I am.

[TDDDressage]

I trained an EPSM horse to FEI and found that feeding the low starch-high fat diet really helped him. I also kept him on very high doses of a Vitamin E concentrate as well (I worked with my vet on the amounts and doses throughout the year). I did have his selenium levels check, but he was fine. Be careful with selenium and if you start your horse on it, I would have your vet do a blood test every once in a while to make sure he is not getting to much in his system. It can be toxic when overused, but it is also an invaluable supplement when your horse is in need of it.
I have been told that Warmbloods and draft crosses have a hard time digesting starches and can have EPSM-like symptoms, so I keep my entire barn on the low starch diet now. And by feeding a good fat supplement, you can usually cut down the amount of grain you use per feeding.

I hope everything works out for you and your horse.

[Sabine]

I trained an EPSM horse to FEI and found that feeding the low starch-high fat diet really helped him. I also kept him on very high doses of a Vitamin E concentrate as well (I worked with my vet on the amounts and doses throughout the year). I did have his selenium levels check, but he was fine. Be careful with selenium and if you start your horse on it, I would have your vet do a blood test every once in a while to make sure he is not getting to much in his system. It can be toxic when overused, but it is also an invaluable supplement when your horse is in need of it.
I have been told that Warmbloods and draft crosses have a hard time digesting starches and can have EPSM-like symptoms, so I keep my entire barn on the low starch diet now. And by feeding a good fat supplement, you can usually cut down the amount of grain you use per feeding.

I hope everything works out for you and your horse.

Just for us non-EPSM experts- can you please list the ingredients of a low starch diet?

Thank you in advance!

[Alexie]

Vitamin E + Selenium supplements

I swear by this for my shire x who has never been tested for EPSM but has improved so much on the EPSM diet that he is a different horse

worth a try i think :)

i'm competing at local dressage events and his schooling has much improved but it took time to build his muscles once i'd figured out it was his diet.

i'd say your softly softly approach with correct diet is a good way to go about it :) that's what i did

the arguments came up when i was sure he was capable of doing something i'd let him off doing before when he was weaker

but they were good natured and not dangerous to resolve.

my approach was to take things as they come, being led by my horses behaviour and attitude, but be ready to push when i felt he was capable.

[Alexie]

Just for us non-EPSM experts- can you please list the ingredients of a low starch diet?

Thank you in advance!

mine is on two cup fulls sun flower oil (oil is for energy, this can go up to much more if needed)

pink powder vit and min and probiotic supplement

vit e and selenium (vit e needed to digest large amount of oil)
all in chaff, no hard feed at all.

mine is ok on ad lib haylage and grass

it depends how bad your horse is as to how extreme you make the EPSM diet, if you google EPSM there are a lot of useful links :)

[Livie]

In addition to the diet mentioned there are a few exercise tips that helped me with my guy and improved him to the point where he's now happily eventing:

-he needs to work EVERYDAY, not drilled but even if I'm short on time, 20 minutes trot on the lungeline or a short hack to keep the muscles moving

-as much turnout as possible

-lots of walk at the beginning and end of every ride. No poking along, a really active, marching walk

-the fitter he is, the better he feels, so as difficult as it is to get him that fit I have to keep reminding myself how happy he seems once he gets there

-when he was first building the muscles to carry himself a little rounder it was easier to ask for short periods when he was doing something he already enjoyed. For my guy it was jumping but it can be hacking, anything that keeps him wanting to go forward from behind

Good luck. It's tough and you really need to be consistent but for me at least, it was like all of the sudden he was forward, sound and happy. The muscle building process was the most difficult (and slow!) but once he got there it was like a totally different horse