Gem Twist Clone

[eventchic33]

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2008/09/105.shtml

WOW What do you think?

[Ambrey]

I think it's cool. And kind of creepy.

Last I heard, they were having problems with lifespan of clones. Is that not the case anymore?

And it's weird because the baby doesn't look gray.

[lcw579]

Honestly, I don't know what to think! I guess it will be interesting to see how the little guy develops ....

Anybody remember how Dolly the sheep fared? I seem to remember that she aged prematurely or something along those lines. We need the scientists to chime in on this one.

[wendy]

I think the clones themselves are not entirely normal and may have health problems and shortened lives but the naturally-bred offspring of clones seem to be quite normal. I think. So all they have to do is get this guy to age two or so and collect a lot of sperm.

[eventchic33]

I hope it all works out Gem Twist was an awesome horse

[Susan P]

In a day where the American Horse Council states that we have unwanted horses why do we need to reproduce until we have the numbers at a reasonable level?

I met Gem Twist's sister and she was not spectacular, just kind of an average horse at a small barn. I understand he was an awesome jumper but had a bad attitude. I just don't like cloning to recreate an entire new living being. I think they should save it to reproduce organs to save lives. I think this is the wrong use of this technology. Just my personal opinion. Surely someone will flame me for expressing myself.

[Simkie]

There is a LONG discussion about this on the Sport Horse Breeding forum.

[Anawazor]

I met Gem Twist at the Tampa Grand Prix when I was a kid. He didn't seem to have a crappy attitude to me, but then again, I only met him over a stall wall.
And I was quickly shooed out of his barn :lol:

May have been different when you were on the ground asking him to do something.

As far as cloning goes, I agree with the poster who feels we have too many to go around, why create (and most likely pay a million plus dollars to create) one that may or may not possess the traits you are looking for.
From what I understand, cloning is not going to give you a 100% replica of the animal you've cloned.

Gem Twist was my favorite jumper. I loved everything I ever saw about that horse, but I don't like this one bit. :no:

[grayarabpony]

I never heard that Gem Twist had a bad attitude, but that he was hot and spooky under saddle and best for a pro. He had a lot more scope than his sisters. Greg Best rode some of them too -- there was an article in PH about GB several years ago.

Ambrey the foal will gray out as he ages, like any gray. :)

[SidesaddleRider]

And it's weird because the baby doesn't look gray.

Remember, gray's aren't born grey, they are born chestnut or black. :)

[Ambrey]

Remember, gray's aren't born grey, they are born chestnut or black. :)

Oh, I know. Usually, though, there is some sign that they'll go gray- white around the eyes or muzzle, on the legs.

I'm sure he will go gray, but the fact that there were no signs of it just was something that struck me. It was a rather meaningless observation :)

[Mel0309]

Remember, gray's aren't born grey, they are born chestnut or black. :)

Or bay, or palomino, or any they can have any base color... depending on their parents.

I think he is cute and has quite a future ahead of him. I'm sure he will have the best of care!!!

[JB]

http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=167243

[chai]

He is adorable, but I hope they don't expect him to be Gem Twist II. It is a lot of pressure for the little guy.

[grandprixjump]

What if the original GT fell over his fist cavaletti, and this horse doesn't, what if GT got spooked in the pasture, or they took his mother out for a ride when he was 6 months old, he DECIDED he didn't like being alone and jumped out, thus creating his desire to be a great jumper, maybe at the farm the clone is at, there are other horses sharing a fence line, and he's happy with other horses that close..
DNA doesn't make the complete horse, the way they are raised and trained does also.

[Iron Horse Farm]

Anybody remember how Dolly the sheep fared? I seem to remember that she aged prematurely or something along those lines. We need the scientists to chime in on this one.

Dolly the sheep was euthanized due to a lung disease that commonly affects sheep that are kept indoors. They could not turn her out due to security problems. It had nothing to do with her being a clone.

[Denali6298]

I agree with Susan P, cloning of cells to help people is one thing but to recreate a animal???? For what?

[t. nason]

Well I think its neat that they are doing this. Its new so we will all learn something I hope.

[goodhors]

Gem Twist is not the only one. In Western horses, Scamper the famous barrel racing horse has a clone. Plans for the clone colt, are using him for breeding. He is too valuable for his bloodlines, to use on barrels. He was nice looking in the article I saw. Same body as the original, so I would believe the same speed and skills would be available in producing barrel horses..

Scamper made his rider famous, kept her at the top, World Champions for I believe 10 years. Earned their millions together. She paid for the clone from money she earned the hard way. I think the price mentioned was $500,000. I figure she can do what she wants with her money! And old Scamper is living the good life with her and the clone colt on the ranch he paid for.

No clone is going to be the same as original. They won't live the same life to make the good and bad parts happen. Maybe clone won't have the drive or willingness of the original. With horses, people hope for the same athletic skills. At this point we don't have enough information to know if this will work.

[Woodland]

Nice BABY! One to watch to be sure!

[Pirateer]

Last I heard, they were having problems with lifespan of clones. Is that not the case anymore?

This is because they take the cells from aged animals- the baby is thus born with cells of an older horse- therefore baby only has the same years left as the original did.

[TheJenners]

What? That makes no sense. It doesn't matter what age the animal is when the cells are harvested; new cells are created all the time as old ones die.

As for whether or not the colt will look like Gem Twist: a clone is not a twin. If you ever look at cloned cats, you'll see they are marked differently, are different sizes, etc, but have identical DNA.

[dsgshowmom]

In a day where the American Horse Council states that we have unwanted horses why do we need to reproduce until we have the numbers at a reasonable level?

I met Gem Twist's sister and she was not spectacular, just kind of an average horse at a small barn. I understand he was an awesome jumper but had a bad attitude. I just don't like cloning to recreate an entire new living being. I think they should save it to reproduce organs to save lives. I think this is the wrong use of this technology. Just my personal opinion. Surely someone will flame me for expressing myself.



Hardly, you give a very clear and concise reasoning behind your decision. I agree with you completely.

[armandh]

breed the best to the best and hope....
this seems to be a short cut to obtaining some of the best.
their results would vary a lot even if they had an intact jem twist to start with.

how many breeding syndicates produce duds and loose money?

[Ambrey]

What? That makes no sense. It doesn't matter what age the animal is when the cells are harvested; new cells are created all the time as old ones die.

It's a bit more complicated, but indeed:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=305328
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0YUG/is_11_9/ai_n18608674

[Fixerupper]

It's a bit more complicated, but indeed:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=305328
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0YUG/is_11_9/ai_n18608674

copied from your Pubmed article on aging relative to telomere length

It is noteworthy to mention here that telomere length does not necessarily correlate with an animal's lifespan, nor do we know whether the actual physiological age of cloned animals is accurately reflected by their telomere length. The telomere model is very popular among the many mechanisms scientists have proposed for ageing at the cellular level. Other explanations include oxidative damage, accumulation of genomic changes, Mitochondrial DNA mutations, etc.

(it's a theory not a fact)

[Ambrey]

Yep, but I was wondering if it was panning out or not in the real world. It was just something I remembered from the Dolly days.

[forward ride]

i wonder if he will have a jumping career. probably not. but it would be an interesting study to see if he does possess his brother..err...clone's abilities. would really say a lot about nature vs. nurture. not that we need cloned olympic medalists to prove that, but would be interesting nonetheless. imagine the pressure in riding/training this guy though. empirically, you know that everything physical is there, it's just a matter of making it work...again...and hoping the mental part came too...

[Serah]

Has anyone heard any updates on miniGem??

[chestnutmarebeware]

I just went back and read the thread from Sporthorse Breeding and they keep referring to him as Gem Twist's "son." Is that really the case? Seems like he'd be closer to a brother...

BTW, when I was 10, my mom took me to see Secretariat when he was at Claiborne Farms. His groom took us out to the paddock, where I was (carefully) allowed to pet the Great One. Then the groom asked me if I'd like a souvenir. When I nodded with stars in my eyes, the guy reached over and pulled out a good handful of mane hairs and presented them to me. Secretariat wasn't thrilled, but I was. Anyway, I still have those hairs, which have the root bulb still attached. Should I sell them to the cloning company to clone Big Red and retire to a life of luxury? :lol:

[Woodland]

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2008/09/105.shtml

WOW What do you think?

That is one heck of a baby!!!! :eek: NICE!!!

[EquineLVR]

I personally am excited because these are very rare and valuable bloodlines that we have very limited access to today. I can think of only one stallion standing today here in the states who has the Bonne Nuit lines.

I look at this more of being able to preserve these lines than trying to duplicate exactly what the original Gem Twist was.

Kinda of like saving an endangered species....

[Melzy]

No, this colt is not Gem's son. He is more like a twin. I certainly would like to see more photo updates. Anyone? I adored Gem Twist!

[HydroPHILE]

I agree with Grandprixjump.

Just because GT's clone was born...doesn't mean his "clone" is an identical copy to him.

I think the owners are expecting a little too much...unless someone is just paying for the bragging rights:

"Owned by the Chapot family, the cloned colt is a full thoroughbred, and will be a sought-after outcross for warmblood showjumping mares."

Question:

1. Why was GT gelded in the first place?

Funny...an article in 2003 after the first cloned horse was born reads as follows:
"The cloning technique could have a particular role, says Galli, in perpetuating the sporting success of male show and jump horses that have been castrated."

[grayarabpony]

I agree with Grandprixjump.

Just because GT's clone was born...doesn't mean his "clone" is an identical copy to him.

I think the owners are expecting a little too much...unless someone is just paying for the bragging rights:

"Owned by the Chapot family, the cloned colt is a full thoroughbred, and will be a sought-after outcross for warmblood showjumping mares."

Phenotypically, he will probably be somewhat different. Genetically, except for mDNA (which doesn't matter anyway, since he can't pass it on), he is the same as Gem Twist. He would still be a sought-after cross for showjumping mares.

[HydroPHILE]

Phenotypically, he will probably be somewhat different. Genetically, except for mDNA (which doesn't matter anyway, since he can't pass it on), he is the same as Gem Twist. He would still be a sought-after cross for showjumping mares.

Bloodlines-wise, I know. I guess I have seen far too many cases in which "studs" have great bloodlines...but still have crappy conformation, etc. and are bred merely for their bloodlines.

[msrobin]

I just went back and read the thread from Sporthorse Breeding and they keep referring to him as Gem Twist's "son." Is that really the case? Seems like he'd be closer to a brother...

BTW, when I was 10, my mom took me to see Secretariat when he was at Claiborne Farms. His groom took us out to the paddock, where I was (carefully) allowed to pet the Great One. Then the groom asked me if I'd like a souvenir. When I nodded with stars in my eyes, the guy reached over and pulled out a good handful of mane hairs and presented them to me. Secretariat wasn't thrilled, but I was. Anyway, I still have those hairs, which have the root bulb still attached. Should I sell them to the cloning company to clone Big Red and retire to a life of luxury? :lol:

Now that is very tempting however since he was TB he could never be raced. I don't think the jockey club would allow it even through breeding to other mares. Gosh he would be a great horse to clone though.


Anyone know how much it cost to have a horse cloned?

[HydroPHILE]

Anyone know how much it cost to have a horse cloned?
$300,000+ last time I knew.

No, former TB racehorse clones could not be raced as the JC doesn't allow clones, offspring of mares receiving fertility treatments, or artificially inseminated horses.

[grayarabpony]

Bloodlines-wise, I know. I guess I have seen far too many cases in which "studs" have great bloodlines...but still have crappy conformation, etc. and are bred merely for their bloodlines.

But a horse with those same genes had great talent and a great performance record.

[HydroPHILE]

But a horse with those same genes had great talent and a great performance record.

I guess, in my mind, it's more or less the owners saying, "okay, well we screwed up gelding GT....now...is there any way we can 'breed' GT by making a clone?" AKA "How can we continue to make money off of GT?"

Don't get me wrong, I think it'd be great if this colt could produce great offspring since he's the genetic copy of GT, but it also seems a little greedy.

[horsepix76]

Interesting insight into clones....

The origin of a clone, at least using the current technology, does not involve sperm cells at all. In the few successful attempts at cloning animals, scientists have removed the nucleus of an egg cell from one animal (Animal A) and replaced the nucleus with the nucleus from a cell from another animal (Animal B). The resulting embryo is then implanted into the uterus of a female animal of that species (Animal C). When the clone is born, it is a genetic copy of Animal B. From here: http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art1293.asp

Another interesting read for the non-scientific: What Is Cloning? (http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/tech/cloning/whatiscloning/)

[LearnToFly]

$300,000+ last time I knew.

No, former TB racehorse clones could not be raced as the JC doesn't allow clones, offspring of mares receiving fertility treatments, or artificially inseminated horses.

But what about the offspring of a clone? Say, if someone cloned Barbaro; I know the clone couldn't race, but could the offspring?

[Sobriska]

I rode a GT sister at one time. And she was an OK girl. But I would not have called her spectacular. I can't remember, but I think she was a half sister.

Cloning IS interesting. Would I do it (money aside)? No. That part of me that misses Bear terribly, would jump at the chance. But the realistic side of me knows it would neve really be the same Bear.

In the words of Dan Folgelberg "It's breeding. It's training. It's something unknown, that drives them and carries them home"

The genetic makeup does not, alone, make the horse.

[chaltagor]

I guess, in my mind, it's more or less the owners saying, "okay, well we screwed up gelding GT....now...is there any way we can 'breed' GT by making a clone?" AKA "How can we continue to make money off of GT?"

Don't get me wrong, I think it'd be great if this colt could produce great offspring since he's the genetic copy of GT, but it also seems a little greedy.

It's ok to breed him if he was never gelded, but spending a ton of money to get sperm from a clone that may not work out is greedy?