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[freestyle2music]

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[canyonoak]

Go Sjef!

First, he shook up training process.

Now, he will shake up the judging...

boy, cell phones have definitely changed the world!

wink.

[Dressage Art]

what does he wants? Higher marks for RK?

[freestyle2music]

what does he wants? Higher marks for RK?


Dressageart: You are the last who I thought would drag this topic into the everlasting RK saga again.

Its obvious that Sjef used the same words you can read on this, and many other boards, but he directed his words directly towards the judges.

[Mozart]

My goodness. I have no idea what his specific complaints are but it seems to me his better half has done pretty well by the judging thus far!
Well, at least now we know where he was after Anky finished her gold medal test :lol:. Pretty soon it will be like baseball, with the team manager engaging in dirt kicking with the umpire.

[Coreene]

For the Dutch speakers amongst us, since I can't post a PDF here, PT me your email address and I will scan and email you the article when my Hoefslag with the interview arrives.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

Lol, now that's funny. Does he think Anky should not have won? If so, he's certainly not alone, but he might be in for some domestic disturbance! :winkgrin:

[Mardi]

The original post has been taken off, apparently. Can someone give us a brief description of what it said ?

Thanks

[Traum]

Theo having another snit and taking his toys home again? Boy does that get old! I missed the original too and I'm curious.

[dressurpferd01]

Basically it was Theo talking about an article about Sjef Jannssen complaining about the judging at the Olympics. What he has to complain about, since his wife did QUITE well, I have no idea, but that's Sjef.

[egontoast]

Basically it was Theo talking about an article about Sjef Jannssen complaining about the judging at the Olympics. What he has to complain about, since his wife did QUITE well, I have no idea, but that's Sjef.


Well , let's see, it's also possible that he has an objective opinion (right or wrong) of the judging and is not going to claim it was great just because his wife won.

Seems he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't though.;)

[FriesianX]

Not to be a total flame target, but it seems that many on this very BB were complaining pretty loudly about the Olympic judges too. So, shouldn't it make people feels some sense of justification that some of the competitors are also unhappy with the judging? Seems the Olympic riders are much more experienced with the judging standards at this level of competition!:confused:

[ridgeback]

Well , let's see, it's also possible that he has an objective opinion (right or wrong) of the judging and is not going to claim it was great just because his wife won.

Seems he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't though.;)

There were only 5 people who posted before Theo took down the thread he acts like this is his sand box and everyone must tow the line or he's going to gather his toys up and leave you don't get much more childish then that. This isn't the first time he's done stuff like this and I'm sure won't be the last.:rolleyes::rolleyes::lol:

[Mozart]

Well , let's see, it's also possible that he has an objective opinion (right or wrong) of the judging and is not going to claim it was great just because his wife won.

Seems he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't though.;)

I completely agree with you and I am all for objective opinion.
However.
The article went on to say that the judges complained about his bad behaviour in HK and Wittages stated that if there had been a way to have him removed from the grounds, they would have. That is a pretty strong condemnation of his behaviour. I suppose time will tell if that condemnation was warranted or not, but in the context of Theo's prior posting about the judges being subjected to intimidation, it does make one wonder doesn't it?

[cinder88]

Pretty soon it will be like baseball, with the team manager engaging in dirt kicking with the umpire.

If only I had the photoshop skills!

Cinder

[pintopiaffe]

well, I'm sorry the info was removed... I did read it last night, and find it super interesting that the *winner* disagrees with the judging. That's not the usual reaction. ;)

I was looking forward to hearing more about it.

[ridgeback]

How do we know he wasn't complaining about the Grand Prix Special scores or the team competition?

[canyonoak]

Sjef publically complained abouit Riexinger after and during Rotterdam.

HK was just further proof , so some people, that Riexinger was "judging with his flag" not with his eyes.

I seriously doubt that Sjef was complaining about Anky's scores.

[Fixerupper]

Does it not seem rather telling that the winner was critical of the judging?
It seems that Reixinger was favoring the Germans throughout - did you not read about the bell ringing issues? (bell loud and clear for the favored few, very quiet for the rest) At one point Anky had to ask her people if the bell had rung and should she enter the ring. The bell was so quiet for Ashley Holzer's freestyle that the kids at A did not open the ring for her.

[petitefilly]

Does it not seem rather telling that the winner was critical of the judging?
It seems that Reixinger was favoring the Germans throughout - did you not read about the bell ringing issues? (bell loud and clear for the favored few, very quiet for the rest) At one point Anky had to ask her people if the bell had rung and should she enter the ring. The bell was so quiet for Ashley Holzer's freestyle that the kids at A did not open the ring for her.


Wow, I had not heard that! Interesting-----! When will adults start acting like adults at these venues? It really seems a shame to put all the work into dressage, all the money it takes to get there, and then have politics raging like hormones in a teenage boy.

Arghhh. Life is strange, why do people put up with this year after year? Personally I am glad I do not have the ambition, money, or talent to get to this level. The heartache of having to kiss ass, be dumped on, and then have politics rear it's ugly head sure is daunting! :(

[freestyle2music]

Sjef publically complained abouit Riexinger after and during Rotterdam.

HK was just further proof , so some people, that Riexinger was "judging with his flag" not with his eyes.

I seriously doubt that Sjef was complaining about Anky's scores.

Now the original articles (including the comments of Sjef Jansen) in two major equestrian Dutch magazines are published it seems that there is much, much, much more to it as stated before. But since the name of Sjef Janssen or Anky van Grunsven brings out the sharks on this BB, i don't go through all the effords to translate five pages of text.

Theo

[Dune]

But since the name of Sjef Janssen or Anky van Grunsven brings out the sharks on this BB, i don't go through all the effords to translate five pages of text.

Theo

Oh, ignore the idiots...I mean sharks...and give us the scoop. Pretty please. :cool::yes:

[ridgeback]

Don't pander to Theo he's just whining, one person said something about Rolker and he pulled the thread...:rolleyes:

[freestyle2music]

Oh, ignore the idiots...I mean sharks...and give us the scoop. Pretty please. :cool::yes:


I will scan the article today and post it on my website, be a little patient about the translation. But the redline is basicly that Withages stated that the judging in Hongkong was te best ever, and Sjef disagreed with this.
Another statement which Withages made (to confirm that the judging at HongKong was right on the spot), was that all judges agreed about the unevennes (? spelling) of Brentina.

But between the lines you can read all the gossip. Like "the FEI executive board and Princess Haya did want to change the judge-team for the Olympics, but was overruled by the head of the dressage-commitee (read Withages) etc...etc...etc... Sjef also stated that Riexinger was judging with the national flag in his hand which costed the USA (SP/Ravel) an individual medal".

Basicly Sjef's words was a nice compilation of the many post on this (and other boards), about the judging in HongKong and the judging of dressage in general.

Stay tuned,

Theo

[slc2]

Sjef needs to review his maths. Ravel couldn't and shouldn't have won a medal, he made too many green mistakes. he should have scored higher, yes, but not gotten a medal. I did the math and even putting rixienger in line he wasn't going to get a medal.

By the way, Theo, it doesn't matter if sjef says something the same as the sjef-haters here, the fact that he says anything is just not allowed.

[hsheffield]

why isn't Sjef allowed to say anything?

[slc2]

Think about it. people have spent the last month bitching about how bad the judging is. But if SJEF says the judging is bad, everyone here has fits that he said that. People is the craziest.

[Fixerupper]

Think about it. people have spent the last month bitching about how bad the judging is. But if SJEF says the judging is bad, everyone here has fits that he said that. People is the craziest.

HUH???

[ridgeback]

Think about it. people have spent the last month bitching about how bad the judging is. But if SJEF says the judging is bad, everyone here has fits that he said that. People is the craziest.

Hey SLC can you show us where that happened? Theo started this thread and there were about 5 post before he gathered his toys and left the sandbox... Please show were EVERYONE(your words) had a fit about what he said..You have a serious problem with exaggerating.

[Dune]

I will scan the article today and post it on my website, be a little patient about the translation. But the redline is basicly that Withages stated that the judging in Hongkong was te best ever, and Sjef disagreed with this.
Another statement which Withages made (to confirm that the judging at HongKong was right on the spot), was that all judges agreed about the unevennes (? spelling) of Brentina.

But between the lines you can read all the gossip. Like "the FEI executive board and Princess Haya did want to change the judge-team for the Olympics, but was overruled by the head of the dressage-commitee (read Withages) etc...etc...etc... Sjef also stated that Riexinger was judging with the national flag in his hand which costed the USA (SP/Ravel) an individual medal".

Basicly Sjef's words was a nice compilation of the many post on this (and other boards), about the judging in HongKong and the judging of dressage in general.

Stay tuned,

Theo

Thank you.:)

[Dressage Art]

Dressageart: You are the last who I thought would drag this topic into the everlasting RK saga again.

Its obvious that Sjef used the same words you can read on this, and many other boards, but he directed his words directly towards the judges.

Lately, many judges are trying to ban the RK in the warm up arenas and hoping that will be soon. You think that Sjef's complains about judges might, just might be triggered by that? Since such ban of RK in the warm up will directly affect Sjef and his students...

Theo, RK and Sjef come in a package - it's quite difficult to distinguish one from another. I'm curious to read your posts and appreciate your information sharing, but I do disagree with some of your positions. I know that you've been a strong supporter of Van Baleen’s for a long time ... before and after their infamous RK pony lunging - I assume that you are not opposed to the Sjef's training techniques as well. I, however, was never a RK supporter.

[freestyle2music]

Many judges are trying to ban the RK in the warm up arenas and hoping that will be soon. You think that Sjef's complains about judges might, just might be triggered by that? Since such ban of RK in the warm up will directly affect Sjef and his students...

[edit]

This whole matter has nothing to do with Hyperflexion or what so ever, this all had to do with the scoring of judges with their national flag in their hand.

And putting the van Baalen's (students of Reiner Klimke, Johan Hinneman and Henk van Bergen) in the same basket as Sjef or whoever shows that you don't know much about dressage.

Theo

[Coreene]

You think that Sjef's complains about judges might, just might be triggered by that? No, Sjef's complaints had nothing to do with that. I have the interview with the whiner judges and the interview with Sjef in front of me. It has nothing to do with training at all. I am not going to translate it, but if you want a PDF of the article - which is all in Dutch - then PT me your email address.

[Coreene]

BTW, let's not forget that it wasn't just Riexinger who was waving his national flag while judging. That Danish judge was just as determined to see his team medal. And they did.

[Sandy M]

Please, TOE the line, not TOW the line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_the_line

[Dressage Art]

BTW, let's not forget that it wasn't just Riexinger who was waving his national flag while judging. That Danish judge was just as determined to see his team medal. And they did.

I think US judge was also quite high on the marks for our beloved US mare as well.

PS: Thank you Coreene, but Dutch is not one of the languages that I know.

[canyonoak]

Everyone knows dressage is a subjective sport.

The foundation for the success of a subjective sport is the judging: ie, that everyone involved in the sport believe and accept the judging is basically fair, let alone correct.

Dressage, like gymnastics, ice skating, etc., always has and probably always will suffer from worries about the perceptions and prejudices.

That is because you can have a handbook, you can have instant replay, you can have some judges watch technical and others artistic, you can stick one judge in a zeppelin and have them watch from overhead and you can have cameras in the barns, warm-up areas,etc...but NO ONE is always going to have the same perception of the horse athlete, no matter how much they may agree on the human athlete.

Ergo, the 'happy athlete' and the hue and cry over that concept.

No one in international cares a fig about rollkur, hyperflexion, call it what you want.

Either good riding/bad riding, that's about it.
You use your toolbox and you either use it well or you do not.

Sjef felt Riexinger judged unfairly at Rotterdam--and the Dutch decided to have him part of ther panel there in order to gauge/assess how he might judge at Hong Kong , as Rotterdam is one of the only CHIO's, besides Aachen.

Hong Kong was just a continuation of the problems that surfaced at Rotterdam.

I said this pages ago but still think it is true<g> : All this drama will shake up the judges and that is a good thing.

Sometimes, the judges lose all humility let alone humor -- and that is a BAD thing.

[Dressage Art]

Sometimes, the judges lose all humility let alone humor -- and that is a BAD thing.

I'm all for shaking up things and refreshing situations time to time, but I personally don't see a lot of humor in judging life and yes, it's can be quite easy to become "battle hardened" for judges and stop "giving a fig" about unfair complains and cheep mud slinging attacks. As one of the highest ranking judges said one time: "The best way to resolve some disputes is: "Goodbye"" so the complains about judges really have to be strongly based on the facts and unbiased opinions. Otherwise it's just old whining and sour looser/bad sport attitude. Unfortunately, most of complains about judges are really slander and sour grapes that based on nothing – just like Theo’s attack on me – Theo, who never even met me and doesn’t know much about me. It saddens me, since that kind of cheep mud slinging attacks making it difficult to sort and find a valid complains about judges. May be 5% of complains about judges are correct and have merit, based on personal experience, but it’s so difficult to separate them from other 95% mud slinging, brow beating and bitch slapping of judges. Ironically, it’s the competitors themselves who created this “cry wolf” situation.

That’s the reason why I’m skeptical if any of Shief’s complains about judges really have any merit or he is just like Theo running his mouth.

[Dressage Art]

translation from other website Olympic judges are fed up. De Hoefslag had n exclusive interview with German Gotthilf Riexinger, Dutch Ghislain Fouarge and Belgian Mariette Withages. The two olympic judges and president of the FEI dressage comittee have a bad after taste from the Olympic Games. The threesome feels they were treated respectless and that in the prearrangements (this is not a good translation, perhaps, I hope someone helps me out with aanloop) and during the Games a smear campaign was created towards the judges and president of he judges Riexinger especially. The Dutch federalcoach Sjef Janssen is seen as the man behind this. ‘I like Sjef, but sadly enough he becomes more and more extreme, crosses borders and it seems the KHNS is okay with that. He wants to fight a war to reach his goal,‘ according to Fouarge, who thought of retiring from judging after all what happened. According to Withages Janssen would have been removed in hong kong if there had existed regulations to be able to remove people who don´t know how to behave themselves during an event. In the eyes of Riexinger Janssen has demotivated his own people with his behavior, with the result that the team athmosphere as not optimal within the Dutch. Withages ends the interview with the words ‘Our story must not become a complaint against Sjef Janssen as a person, but against the way he misbehaved.’ the complete interview will be published in the hoefslag of next week where Sjef Janssen also reacts extensively to the imputations.

[canyonoak]

I think Sjef's complaints have some merit.

He is many things that are unlikable and not positive, but a fool is not one of them.

He is hardly the only such person to complain to this degree-he is just one of the very VERYfew who will complain in public.

The others all do it in private.

[CatOnLap]

away from slander.
People ought not to use words they don't know the meaning of.
I’m skeptical if any of Shief’s complains about judges really have any merit or he is just like Theo running his mouth.
Who's Sheif ?... and about that charge of libel you wanted to make?
Pot, meet kettle.

Good grief.

[Dressage Art]

Sjef is quite negative in most of his comments, even to his wife, openly for the whole world to see as well. He is not a fool, but I'm yet to hear positive from his mouth about almost anything... do you remember how he was bashing his own team? I think his cup is always half empty.

Pot, meet kettle. Good grief. but then it seems that you are a third wheel here... Even while my and Theo's first language is not English, I think we can manage with out you. May be you can go and spell check something else?

[Sabine]

I think Sjef's complaints have some merit.

He is many things that are unlikable and not positive, but a fool is not one of them.

He is hardly the only such person to complain to this degree-he is just one of the very VERYfew who will complain in public.

The others all do it in private.

And frankly- I like that a lot!!
There needs to be some change- there is a lot wrong with the system.
I do like a lot of what he says and suggests...and I do believe he is an amazing trainer...RK or not- he's got a brain that knows more, competes harder, reads more and has more power then a lot of the rest...but that is usually the case with folks that innovate- they are most-hated...by most-.for at least 25 years..then they become legend....what a trip...

[belambi]

so..where does the judges' clandestine midnight meeting fit into all of this?

[Coreene]

I think Sjef's complaints have some merit.

He is many things that are unlikable and not positive, but a fool is not one of them.

He is hardly the only such person to complain to this degree-he is just one of the very VERYfew who will complain in public.

The others all do it in private.Amen, sister.

There are two articles. The first one was judges moaning. The second one was the response my Sjef and George de Jong from the KNHS.

[freestyle2music]

Withages made some very strange statements. Like : "I know the judging in dressage is far from perfect, but in Hongkong it was the best judge-team ever, a judge team with had the guts to score a famous rider as Debbie Mc Donald low because her horse was unsound. And since nobody can give me an answer how to change the judging system we stick to the system we have now. But in the future we might change the system in a way that the countries who probably are running for the medals don't have judges in the judgeboxes anymore. But since the best judges are from Germany and Holland this might be very difficult.....etc...etc....

Next to this her poisened arrows where not only pointed to Sjef but also to the Dutch journalists and media and the director of the Royal Dutch Horse Federation. She even went that far that she stated that they all just write what Sjef wants them to write.

Withages also stated that Sjef as one of the (ex)members of the dressage-committe agreed with the appointed judge-team for HongKong, while Sjef stated that he had send an Email to Withages and the dressage-committee in which he strongly protested against it. The FEI board of directors including Princess Haya has strongly adviced the dressage-committee (read Withages) not to appoint a Dutch or German judge as the head of the judges for HongKong, but Withages overruled this.

Reading these articles over and over again I can only draw the conclussion that it's all one big circus at the FEI.

Theo

[Coreene]

A three ring circus, baby.

[egontoast]

a judge team with had the guts to score a famous rider as Debbie Mc Donald low because her horse was unsound.

HUH???:confused:

If the judges thought a horse was unsound they ought to have rung her out, not marked her down, if "guts' were involved.

[grayarabpony]

Reading these articles over and over again I can only draw the conclussion that it's all one big circus at the FEI.

Theo

That's not news.