Tips for heavy-handed horse.

[BCEVENTER]

Hey All.
I have a horse who I have been eventing. He was a dressage horse, showing first level and schooling second. We have been doing well eventing, but needed some work on SJ, so have been doing alot of it. Anyways, I knew that we needed to get back to the flat stuff, so yesterday I threw my dressage tack on. OMG! I have never had a horse so heavy on my hands before! Walk was ok, trot was worse, canter was soooo bad he was almost pulling me forward he was sooo heavy! I need some tips! I have a lesson tomorrow to try and get it figured out, and of course I have my ideas of how to fix it, but looking for some other advise to get him to lighten up in the bridle! Thanks!

[WldnHrseCrzy03]

People have always told me to not give the horse anything to lean on. So if they start to pull or lean, release. Do a squeeze and release type thing.

I'm sure some other more advanced riders can elaborate on this for me if that doesn't make sense.

[Dixon]

Strange that you didn't notice his heaviness until you "threw your dressage tack on." Even when you are practicing your jumping, don't you warm up on the flat first? You must be dramatically changing your entire riding style once you climb into dressage tack. Bet you're not using enough leg and making him really step forward from behind. Bet you're relying on the jumps to rock him back when you're in jumping tack. Or do you jump him in such a severe bit that he's afraid to take contact, so when you put him in a dressage-legal bit, he drops down out of sheer relief?

Keep in mind that the whole point of dressage training is to have a well-rounded horse proficient in each discipline, and that can go from dressage to cross country to stadium, whether all in one day or in three. You are probably treating the disciplines as far too isolated. Dressage compliance and fitness affects your horse's responsiveness over the stadium course. You should be able to warm up by practicing dressage (and you need not be in "dressage tack" for that work), then seamlessly transition to jumping work all in one school.

[siegi b.]

Great post, Dixon!!
You need to ride your horse INTO the contact, not the other way aorund. So, your legs and seat need to be the driving force, not your hands.

[merrygoround]

I think, (I hope) your lesson will be an an eye opener. I think you've just been charging forward to the fences, forgeting there is such a thing as a halfhalt that doesn't involve your hands. :)

[BCEVENTER]

Or do you jump him in such a severe bit that he's afraid to take contact, so when you put him in a dressage-legal bit, he drops down out of sheer relief?

Wow, that surprised me a bit. I do stadium, cross country and dressage in a loose ring french link snaffle. There is no difference between any of the bits I use. Of course I warm up on the flat first, but a dressage ride is different from a jump ride in my eyes. When you are cantering up to a jump, your horse isin't traveling the way he is in a dressage test.
I do think that my habit is to try to pulll the horse into the bridle instead of push him into it. I know that becuase he was used at as a 'lessonn' horse from the time he was 4 to 6 that he has a relatively hard mouth.
To each their own....


I think, (I hope) your lesson will be an an eye opener. I think you've just been charging forward to the fences, forgeting there is such a thing as a halfhalt that doesn't involve your hands.

Oh, and thanks for the chuckle. My hardest challenge with this horse is getting him to go forward. He is seriously a slow horse. It has taken me some months to even get him going forward to a jump, let alone into the bit

[Alexie]

mine is heavy on the forhand too, and a lazy git also :)


the best thing i've found for him is leg yield in and out on a circle in trot, counter canter and shoulder in in walk and trot on straight lines and on a circle

really gets his hinds underneath him and lightens his front end

its going to be a long haul though, not a quick fix. have to do the exercises every time i school and have to be happy with a gradual improvement. BUT we are getting better :)

oh first i had to make him believe he had to go off my leg without causing me to hyperventilate with exhaustion-again still working on that but much improvement already and much more needed :)

[FLeckenAwesome]

my pony is the same way. i think that when i ride dressage, i ask for a bit more round, a bit more deep and then... he gets a bit heavier! and i think the way i sit in my jump tack vs dressage tack is also a bit different.. not sure how or why it should make a difference, but it does. ???

i've been working on making him carry himself by dropping him. Letting him fall on his face so he realizes i wont' hold him up!! course if i pay attention and do my proper half-halts and proper leg aids... he doesn't end up getting to that bad place to begin with ;)
lots of transitions will help keep him paying attention too.

good luck. i've been OBSESSING over it for the last week...after he went careening left on a right handed circle at the canter when i dropped the right rein!! :o can you say "i hold with the right rein something fierce"!! so embarassing!! but anyways... now that i'm working on it, i find that i can keep him lighter by paying attention and doing my duty, but.. i know it's not going to be a magic cure instantaneously. i think some of it is strenght too.. he's not used to carrying himself that deep and round just yet so i'm his "training wheels" so to speak... but we're learning to go without them. him and me both ;)

good luck!

[ideayoda]

There is a statement that jumping is only a dressage test with road bumps in it. In dressage you DO ride a horse activity (think riding to a base of a fence) to keep that energy! Why are you riding on the flat in a different manner? Keep the horse active and up (literally) to the hand. Horses dont hang, people do. Pulse aids/keep energy/check equitation and half halts.

[Dixon]

I do think that my habit is to try to pulll the horse into the bridle instead of push him into it. I know that becuase he was used at as a 'lessonn' horse from the time he was 4 to 6 that he has a relatively hard mouth.
To each their own....

My hardest challenge with this horse is getting him to go forward. He is seriously a slow horse. It has taken me some months to even get him going forward to a jump, let alone into the bit

Hard to make your horse go forward when you're pulling him backwards. No wonder he's heavy in your hands.

[BCEVENTER]

Thanks Alexie and FLeckenAwesome! I have been doing some leg yeilds and pushing him off my leg and doing the dropping thing so that he doesn't have anything to hang on to.

Horses dont hang, people do. Pulse aids/keep energy/check equitation and half halts.

This is what I was looking for, great reminder!

And Dixon, congradulations for proving yourself to be the steriotypical dressage queen.

[Dixon]

If you knew me you'd realize how coffee-spitting funny that is!
Does correct spelling make one a dressage queen? :D

[Gracie]

from gait to gait and within the gait.

walk-trot, working trot-lengthened trot, trot-halt, canter-trot.

[Equus_girl]

There is a statement that jumping is only a dressage test with road bumps in it. In dressage you DO ride a horse activity (think riding to a base of a fence) to keep that energy! Why are you riding on the flat in a different manner? Keep the horse active and up (literally) to the hand. Horses dont hang, people do. Pulse aids/keep energy/check equitation and half halts.
I second this :) Fave phrase of my jumping/dressage trainer.

Actually, at Rolex last spring Sally O'Connor said "Well, any horse can ran and jump, but lets see how they can do dressage."

[Kaeleer]

Sometimes it's a matter of rider focus.

I also ride a horse who competes at dressage, showjumping and eventing. When I'm jumping him, I'm almost unconscious of the aids, my hands are soft, my eyes are up, my leg is on and effective. When I want a walk/canter transition it is up and has power and jump. I can get lateral work almost without thinking when I need to (slight hp in a jump-off, or SI if you are losing some engagement), and my horse is on a contact which is light and elastic.

Stick me in a 20 x 60 and it all falls apart. Why? Because suddenly there are no jumps to focus on. Instead of the focus being "get to the fence", it is "go from A to B and do it round, engaged, etc, etc, etc".

It's a freaking nightmare because suddenly there is so much to THINK about. And my horse feels the tension, feels the additional pressure from hands, and seat, and legs and starts to go like he is filled with lead.

Is this not maybe what happens to you?

If so, you might find that you can cheat a little. I try to pretend that there is a jump at the arena markers, so instead of going "canter at A and then circle at B", I think, "there is a 3'3" oxer at B, and I ask for the canter that I need to clear that oxer. Generally, it is a MUCH better canter than the one I would be asking fore if I didn't imagine the jump.

If this is not your problem, then sorry and carry on....

[BCEVENTER]

Kaeleer! I think that you are right! Thanks for the tips!

[Kaeleer]

You're welcome.

Don't thank me just yet : this might help you at the canter, and possibly the trot, but it's not much help when it comes to the walk!

It just gives you a possible reason for why the horse goes differently when you jump. You're still going to need to learn to RIDE that way on the flat.

[FLeckenAwesome]

oooh, i'll have to give that a try too!!!

hee hee.. .just watch my goofy horse now JUMP out of the arena...well, you said JUMP mom!!!

doh!

;)

[BaileyTW]

I am going through the same problem with my gelding right now. He loves trails and running around cross counrty, but ask him to do actual WORK in an arena and he has a fit. His favourite evasion is dropping his head and getting really heavy in my hands.

I had a rather intense lesson with my dressage trainer and we worked in a 20m circle walk and trot, focusing on basics like keeping a steady rhythm and keeping the bend of the circle. whenever he would try and drop his head, he would get strong leg and a little extra inside rein. Toward the end of the lesson he started to figure out he got much less of a hassle if he pulled himself together and focused on his job rather than being a lazy bum.

Its A LOT of legwork!!! Remember to keep pushing him forward!

[JumpingForJoy]

I had a rather intense lesson with my dressage trainer and we worked in a 20m circle walk and trot, focusing on basics like keeping a steady rhythm and keeping the bend of the circle. whenever he would try and drop his head, he would get strong leg and a little extra inside rein. Toward the end of the lesson he started to figure out he got much less of a hassle if he pulled himself together and focused on his job rather than being a lazy bum.

Its A LOT of legwork!!! Remember to keep pushing him forward!

This thread has been really interesting to me as my horse lately has been getting really heavy. However, she is a very hot horse - I apply my leg and she just takes off. Sometimes just giving her an aid to correct something can throw her into a panic... she will throw up her head, hollow out her back, and take off. I am trying to get her to relax and accept my leg and we are slowly making progress but she just has the personality that anything new (and that doesn't mean just riding related - it can be anything new in her "world" :)) will throw her into a tizzy.

I notice lately that when I do get her to relax and listen calmly, she will start following my contact, then get really heavy in my hands, and it appears she is trying to stretch. While she is heavy in my hands, I can feel a lot of movement from her hindquarters in my seat, like her stride is getting "deeper", for lack of a better term. At first I thought this heaviness was because I have been trying to ride her in shorter rein contact. But I have noticed that even if I give her a reward by walking on a loose rein for a couple of strides after some circle patterns, she will stretch down long and low.

I am not sure how I should be interpreting this... Is what I am viewing as "stretching" a good thing or a bad habit that is developing? If it is a bad thing, does anybody have suggestions as to how to handle given her temperament?

(I am obviously a greenie and am trying to learn and can only describe what I am noticing so please be kind... ;))

[goeslikestink]

commn problem half the time its to do with position and being handset or heavy in the hands and not using your seat as an independant one
so we have to fix the stirrups to make sure they the right lenght which will help the position so look here
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=168758

then you can move upt o working the horse from butt to poll via lenghtening and shorting his strides with the half halt stride withe very transition
which i amsure i siad how to perfrom it in this topic
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=158240

[slc2]

It doesn't usually work to tell a student 'you're riding him front to back, change that', or 'you have bad hands', or 'you're not forward enough'.

Jumping makes a horse 'handy'. The jumps rock him back, get him working his hind legs. It is very, very common for riders to report that when they aren't doing something to get the horse's hind legs under him and get him packaged, that he is not under himself and is not in a package where he's balanced and light.

This is very, very normal what you experience.

What it means is that you need to have something in your dressage that 'packages' the horse just like a gymnastic in a jump does.

And no. Dropping the reins doesn't solve the problem of the horse being heavy. It just avoids it. And in most horses it makes them worse.

It also makes them unhappy.

Horses pull because they have to, not because they want to. In most cases. The horse pulls because his weight is on his forehand and he's not packaged. As JeanLuc Cornille says, 'EEEEE EEEEZ PASSEEEEVE' (he is passive). The horse just does what he winds up having to do because of how his balance is, he has no idea of how to get himself out of that. IT is n't a choice, it's a reflection of what we're doing.

Go ahead and canter around a 20 meter circle about ten times, and tell me how crappy the horse feels in your hands after that.

OK. Now go around one 20 meter circle at the canter. Ride a transition to walk on the center line. Now back up - just one step, and pick up the canter. Oh my, the horse feels light....now feel. Then he loses it. He's heavy again. How many strides? COUNT.

That's how far he can go right now without some help. As my old trainer used to say, 'so HELP HIM!'

Then when he gets heavy, ride a transition. Walk. Never back up more than one step, all you're doing is repositioning his hind legs under him, and it takes only one step.

Frequently, change directions, and change gaits. About every 5 circles or even less. Don't get his muscles on one side of him too tired out. This is more tiring, too, so cut your ride shorter.

Now when after the transition, you are really going to put your leg on and ask him to work into the bridle. Really ask him to flow forward. YES he's going to dive and pull every single time you ask him to go forward. Because he doesn't know how to use his back and hind quarter yet.

Jumping doesn't quite use the same muscles as this flat work does, and not quite in the same way, but it very much doesn't use the back the same way. He can be very good to jump and have a hard time doing this.

And DON'T just give your reins. All he will do is fall on his face more. Have a little slightly flexible barrier you make with your hands so he doesn't lean down more and more and lose his balance. Have a limit, at that limit point, you are going to HELP HIM, you're going to kind of play with him right at that edge, that limit in a soft way. Get too hard and you will just be fighting, but you also know he's telling you, 'I can't get myself back up, HELP!'

Remember too that you couldn't ask for a better problem. It's about 5000 times more horrible trying to get a horse to go into the bridle when he is hanging back. At least he is trying to face the bridle! Count your blessings. When a horse pulls you can always fix it, if he doesn't even want to face thebridle you have very hard work ahead.

Learn to have a barrier with yiour hands that is a 'virtual barrier', not a hard stiff barrier where you start hauling with both hands, but a point where you feel he is about to fall on his face. Make your 'virtuall barrier' BEFORE that 'falling down point'. Your 'virtual barrier' is where you start bending, making almost like a little leg yield feel, and working transitions to help him balance.

If he's pulling like a train, bend him in one direction. If he won't bend, do a little leg yield like feeling thing without going sideways, just a little leg yield POSITION, bend him one way, push him at the girth with your leg,, get a bend in his body (he doesn't need to go sideways, hold with your outside aids so this leg yield like thing just puts him together). If he pulls really hard on ONE rein, bend him on the other rein. Work ONE rein, but don't abandon the other, but don't pull hard.

The old saying is the inside rein is the hammer and the outside rein is the anvil - the point is not that you're wielding them with force, but that you need both of them, but you have to learn to play within them both in a clever way, not a hard way.

Don't try to make a hard barrier that he hits, that doesn't do anything to help the off balance horse. IT makes it worse.

You want atrainer there to help you, so you don't overdo with all the bending and wind up with a horse that is very comfy to ride and just goes around 'patting the ground' without any power or push behind or flow of energy through the hind quarter, back and up to your hand.

ALOT of people can teach you to make your puller 'comfortable to ride', either by having you 'lady them up' with bending and transitions til they're backed off the bit, or by putting them in a harsher bridle so they don't go to the bit. It is a balancing act to preserve all that power and channel it correctly to your hand and properly 'recycle' it properly.

[Dixon]

. . . I notice lately that when I do get her to relax and listen calmly, she will start following my contact, then get really heavy in my hands, and it appears she is trying to stretch. While she is heavy in my hands, I can feel a lot of movement from her hindquarters in my seat, like her stride is getting "deeper", for lack of a better term. At first I thought this heaviness was because I have been trying to ride her in shorter rein contact. But I have noticed that even if I give her a reward by walking on a loose rein for a couple of strides after some circle patterns, she will stretch down long and low.

I am not sure how I should be interpreting this... Is what I am viewing as "stretching" a good thing or a bad habit that is developing? If it is a bad thing, does anybody have suggestions as to how to handle given her temperament?

This is a good thing. Your mare is doing what you want. She needs to come down before she balances back. As long as she's stretching down gently and gradually, as opposed to rooting the reins out of your hands, she is responding well.

But as the rest of this thread focuses on, the stretching down is not the goal -- it is only a building block in her training. If all she ever does is stretch down into your hands and pull herself along on her front end, that would be a bad habit. So your job is to make sure that even as she stretches, her hind end keeps pushing. Many horses stretch down onto their forehands to avoid using their hind ends, so the rider needs to stay vigilant. The next step now that you have a bunch of contact is to balance her back over her hind end. Not dramatically, just to ensure she's pushing herself from behind, not pulling herself from her front end. Hopefully you'll have some knowledgeable ground help to help you with the rebalancing -- just remember that it should come from your legs, not your hands.

[Filly85']

It doesn't usually work to tell a student 'you're riding him front to back, change that', or 'you have bad hands', or 'you're not forward enough'.

Jumping makes a horse 'handy'. The jumps rock him back, get him working his hind legs. It is very, very common for riders to report that when they aren't doing something to get the horse's hind legs under him and get him packaged, that he is not under himself and is not in a package where he's balanced and light.

This is very, very normal what you experience.

What it means is that you need to have something in your dressage that 'packages' the horse just like a gymnastic in a jump does.

And no. Dropping the reins doesn't solve the problem of the horse being heavy. It just avoids it. And in most horses it makes them worse.

It also makes them unhappy.

Horses pull because they have to, not because they want to. In most cases. The horse pulls because his weight is on his forehand and he's not packaged. As JeanLuc Cornille says, 'EEEEE EEEEZ PASSEEEEVE' (he is passive). The horse just does what he winds up having to do because of how his balance is, he has no idea of how to get himself out of that. IT is n't a choice, it's a reflection of what we're doing.

Go ahead and canter around a 20 meter circle about ten times, and tell me how crappy the horse feels in your hands after that.

OK. Now go around one 20 meter circle at the canter. Ride a transition to walk on the center line. Now back up - just one step, and pick up the canter. Oh my, the horse feels light....now feel. Then he loses it. He's heavy again. How many strides? COUNT.

That's how far he can go right now without some help. As my old trainer used to say, 'so HELP HIM!'

Then when he gets heavy, ride a transition. Walk. Never back up more than one step, all you're doing is repositioning his hind legs under him, and it takes only one step.

Frequently, change directions, and change gaits. About every 5 circles or even less. Don't get his muscles on one side of him too tired out. This is more tiring, too, so cut your ride shorter.

Now when after the transition, you are really going to put your leg on and ask him to work into the bridle. Really ask him to flow forward. YES he's going to dive and pull every single time you ask him to go forward. Because he doesn't know how to use his back and hind quarter yet.

Jumping doesn't quite use the same muscles as this flat work does, and not quite in the same way, but it very much doesn't use the back the same way. He can be very good to jump and have a hard time doing this.

And DON'T just give your reins. All he will do is fall on his face more. Have a little slightly flexible barrier you make with your hands so he doesn't lean down more and more and lose his balance. Have a limit, at that limit point, you are going to HELP HIM, you're going to kind of play with him right at that edge, that limit in a soft way. Get too hard and you will just be fighting, but you also know he's telling you, 'I can't get myself back up, HELP!'

Remember too that you couldn't ask for a better problem. It's about 5000 times more horrible trying to get a horse to go into the bridle when he is hanging back. At least he is trying to face the bridle! Count your blessings. When a horse pulls you can always fix it, if he doesn't even want to face thebridle you have very hard work ahead.

Learn to have a barrier with yiour hands that is a 'virtual barrier', not a hard stiff barrier where you start hauling with both hands, but a point where you feel he is about to fall on his face. Make your 'virtuall barrier' BEFORE that 'falling down point'. Your 'virtual barrier' is where you start bending, making almost like a little leg yield feel, and working transitions to help him balance.

If he's pulling like a train, bend him in one direction. If he won't bend, do a little leg yield like feeling thing without going sideways, just a little leg yield POSITION, bend him one way, push him at the girth with your leg,, get a bend in his body (he doesn't need to go sideways, hold with your outside aids so this leg yield like thing just puts him together). If he pulls really hard on ONE rein, bend him on the other rein. Work ONE rein, but don't abandon the other, but don't pull hard.

The old saying is the inside rein is the hammer and the outside rein is the anvil - the point is not that you're wielding them with force, but that you need both of them, but you have to learn to play within them both in a clever way, not a hard way.

Don't try to make a hard barrier that he hits, that doesn't do anything to help the off balance horse. IT makes it worse.

You want atrainer there to help you, so you don't overdo with all the bending and wind up with a horse that is very comfy to ride and just goes around 'patting the ground' without any power or push behind or flow of energy through the hind quarter, back and up to your hand.

ALOT of people can teach you to make your puller 'comfortable to ride', either by having you 'lady them up' with bending and transitions til they're backed off the bit, or by putting them in a harsher bridle so they don't go to the bit. It is a balancing act to preserve all that power and channel it correctly to your hand and properly 'recycle' it properly.

This post had a ton of correct insight. On a well-schooled horse, you have to leg them up when they get heavy while maintaining the soft contact and the transitions are definitely the key. I have cantered a horse for five strides...gets heavy...halts...you don't necessarily have to back them up everytime...I overdid it with a more sensitive horse who I had to train not to back up at the halt when doing these kinds of transitions...all they do is need to shift their weight back at the stand still which is easy to feel...anyway...and then it was right back into the canter or trot for five more strides...etc.etc.

One of the things that I do with a horse that is just beginning 'real' flatwork is to warm them up on a loose rein first. When they have trotted and cantered on a loose rein and there is no tension, then I will put them on the contact. I think another key is not to overdo it. This is hard work on a horse, and they have to build up to it. The young horses and the out of shape horses only stay on the contact for 5 minutes at a time and you usually can't get that swinging forward gait that you want and really need out of them at this stage in their training. I will end my 5 minute session of contact on the bit with a nice swinging forward walk, and then I will give them the reins and let them relax for a few minutes. Then, you do the exercise all over again. Repitition is the key.

Great post slc2:) I agree with you 100%.