Slight rant about equine insurance

[pattnic]

They sure don't make it easy for amateurs who train their own horses, do they?!?!

I've been collecting quotes for morbidity/mortality and major medical for my two horses. The gelding was purchased as a weanling for $500. He was then *given* to me (a few months later) by the owner (a good friend of mine) who paid the $500. He is now an adorable 4 yo that I have trained entirely myself to walk, trot, and canter under saddle. He has done a *tiny* bit of jumping (will do more over the course of the next year) and he also does some driving. Once he's old enough, I think he will stick as a large pony. So obviously, he's worth more than what was paid for him... but training to increase value generally only counts if a professional did the training. :mad: Nice.

The mare has a proven competition record, so I should be able to prove her value without *too* much work, but it's still going to be a bit of work, because I paid FAR less for her than her actual value (read: 10% of her value) - also from a very good friend.

Grrrrr.... don't get me wrong - all of the agents with whom I have spoken have been very friendly and helpful; it's just somewhat frustrating to essentially be told, "Well, you're not a professional, so your time and training abilities are clearly not as important or valuable as those of a professional."

[coloredhorse]

Yeah, but I can see where they are coming from. As far as the underwriters know, your training could be no better than Uncle Billy Bob, who confidently plops his butt up on his lanky 2yo and manages to cowboy around without coming off and declares the horse "trained" and worth $10K!

There's an easy way around this, though. Do you work with a trainer or know any? You can just have them write a letter "as a professional" giving their opinion of the youngster's training and resultant value. (I've done this.) Another option is to get out to a handful of schooling shows and use the results as documentation of increased value. (Done this, too.) Having a certified appraiser trained in equine valuation is another way of documenting the value of your horse versus the purchase price.

As you noted, most of the insurance folks are nice and seem to want to be helpful. They're not really impugning your training skills; they just need certain easily-recognizable-as-"official" documentation for their underwriters, who may or may not know a hock from a hambone!

[Arob]

I don't know how many people you talked too ? and if they sell farm insurance or home insurance or business insurance or whatever but they are probably familiar with one company's rates - their own

Look I know we are not supposed to advertise for anything on here but I hope the moderators make an exception and let me tell you about an online quote finder service called Kanetix (http://www.kanetix.ca) that SCARES INSURANCE SALESMEN silly because its so powerful at scrounging through ALL the known insurance company policies to find the very best match for your circumstances.

Then you talk to your insurance salesman when you are armed with the facts and watch him squirm when you report the best possible rate and ask him to beat it.

[pattnic]

Yeah, but I can see where they are coming from. As far as the underwriters know, your training could be no better than Uncle Billy Bob, who confidently plops his butt up on his lanky 2yo and manages to cowboy around without coming off and declares the horse "trained" and worth $10K!

There's an easy way around this, though. Do you work with a trainer or know any? You can just have them write a letter "as a professional" giving their opinion of the youngster's training and resultant value. (I've done this.) Another option is to get out to a handful of schooling shows and use the results as documentation of increased value. (Done this, too.) Having a certified appraiser trained in equine valuation is another way of documenting the value of your horse versus the purchase price.

As you noted, most of the insurance folks are nice and seem to want to be helpful. They're not really impugning your training skills; they just need certain easily-recognizable-as-"official" documentation for their underwriters, who may or may not know a hock from a hambone!

Nah, you're right - I do see where they're coming from, but it's still a bit frustrating. As for Uncle Billy Bob - well, some "professionals" aren't much better (Crazy Crayola Trainer Lady, anyone?)! :lol:
And I realize that they're not *really* saying "you suck" - mostly I'm just lamenting the fact that I am going to have to go to extra work to prove my horse is worth something! :lol:
Thanks :) You helped make me feel better; more importantly, you gave me some valuable ideas to help evidence the horses' value.

[2DogsFarm]

They are held to using the statistical tables and company rules.
Unless your agent owns his own company he/she has to follow the guidelines set by the parent company that underwrites the policies.

Works both ways - I was lucky enough to have an agent who advised me I should insure my TB as a pleasure horse as we showed infrequently (less thant 10 times a season) and our TWH as an eventer.
Playing by the "rules", statistically this was cheaper for both horses.
Think on it: how many TBs eventing? How many TWHs?

Slip under their radar using coloredhorse's suggestion. A letter from a friendly "pro" should get you the insurance you want.:winkgrin:

[Windswept Stable]

Take your horses to some horse shows and get some ribbons/ championships and you will have a show record to justify your value.

[flypony74]

Yes, a show record, particularly at recognized/sanctioned shows (since records are generally kept and readily available), is probably the most reliable way to substantiate value.

[Jaegermonster]

Several years ago I trained a horse myself with no help from a pro. I had no problem getting her insured and also had no problem getting her value increased when I needed to. They actually wanted to increase it more than I asked for but I couldn't afford the premium.

I trained her, and then also began showing her. I kept careful records of every class we were in at every show, and also kept a diary of any lessons or clinics that I was able to go to. I then put together a packet, including photos, with a detailed statement of where she started and where she was now, and then had a BNT who is also a big R judge write me a letter stating what she thought of the horse and what value she would place on her. I sent it in and they raised the value with no questions asked.

[ryansgirl]

I do understand their side unfortunately. I do have to say I didn't have a problem insuring my mare for a lot more than I paid for her and I did all the training myself. I took her to some local schooling shows and since we won basically all of our classes, the insurance company was fine with me upping her value. She then was diagnosed w/ KS and that dropped her value - I couldn't in good conscience keep her value at what she was at and the company told me they wouldn't insure a horse under $6000 so I switched companies. I'm now with Hallmark and they were great to deal with - her value wasn't an issue. You just have to get some record or something to show to them. :)

[coloredhorse]

As for Uncle Billy Bob - well, some "professionals" aren't much better (Crazy Crayola Trainer Lady, anyone?)! :lol:

:lol::lol: True dat!!! :lol::lol:

[goeslikestink]

here-- its nothing to do with trinaers to insure a horse
mostly horses under two and oldies have a policy of theft public liabity and straying
then there are class type a-- being fro sj drssage venting hacking etc
b-- everything to incude the above plus say pol and and racing
c- everthying incudig the abov and then breeding etc
horses that are under 5k have two stage vettingsas thats the normal for joe bloggs
horses that are over 5k etc have a 5 stage vettings
this would then also inform the inssurance company your a serious compeditior etc
the vlaue or the insurqaance policy is done on the value of the horse or the market value at that time
the vet fees put insurnaces up as with regards to premiums
alos tack and vechiles of which if a vechile have to supply that you are legally insured and of age ie to have passed a test to drive or tow the vechiles
then you can either pay as one whole amount or on direct debit splite over 12 months
also have as mentioned a ppe
passport and vets record card
freezemark or micro chipped no. or any assocaited paper work ie bsja or whatever
stallions have to have reigistred and lecnse papers
then if the horse was to be operated on you can only claim for that part of the body once
or for on going treatment under the same claim
in other words if say a leg -- it will be excluded from the other 3 legs
depnding how much you paid for the horse how much you value the horse depends on the premium of the horse most people over value there horses due to the fact of where they was an d what theydo or not do- but an insure company will only pay out
on the market value of the horse
also new clauses in incurances polices will state that if riding on the roads you have to prove that you were visible to other roads users all year round

[LisaO]

My vet is on the premises and does all our equine work...unless it is a surgical or hospitalization case since we don't have the facilities to do that.

Insurance company told me I would have to have an outside vet do foal checks. I can understand the idea of a conflict of interest, but blood is blood and the lab results simply are what they are. If a foal is standing and nursing and labs are good, I don't see the need to pay top dollar to bring another vet out to our farm to check vitals and legs. Also, I think my vet would be in danger of losing his license or worse if he falsified data and that's somewhere we're not going. And they 'insure' themselves against risk by jumping up the rate for the youngsters.

I was also given a hard time when I wanted to increase the value of a broodmare (by a whopping $3000 over her foal value) who was just judged premium at her inspection (with two judges - one American, one German). They balked at a measly 10k valuation based on inspection results which include multiple scores for conformation and movement. She also has a great pedigree. A trainer valuation is not even relevant since she is only 3 and not started.

I also have a seven year history with this company and have never had a claim...knock on wood.

So I started shopping today - I'm looking for someone who is reasonable and wants to work
with with a reasonable client. All my horses are underinsured as it is, so it becomes a personal little slap in the face when I get the runaround.