Courtney King doping decision just announced

[gladys]

For those following the Olympic doping issues. I just came across this and am assuming it was announced within the last couple of hours by the FEI.

Courtney King Doping Decision (http://www.barnmice.com/forum/topic/show?id=1773158%3ATopic%3A39995)

[Eclectic Horseman]

Zero tolerance is maintained, but at least by issuing a decision before Devon and ending the suspension, she can compete and not be financially penalized further. (When is a suspension not a sanction? :confused: When they say it isn't, apparently.)

The "strict liability" is somewhat ameliorated by the language recognizing the lack of intent.

Still seems harsh in the circumstances though.:cry:

[Mozart]

I agree it it seems harsh, but strict liability is strict liability. It is no different than any other regulatory offence. I don't think anyone anywhere will regard this as some sort black mark against CKD.

[snoopy]

So the USA team loses its forth place finish...okay still disqualified but at least no return of medals...but rules are rules. What a bummer result for both the eventers and dressage horses.

[ridgeback]

been posted already:)

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=167852&page=3

[freestyle2music]

Allthough I expected this already, this is a ridiculous verdict, but within some days we will probably read more about the complete motivaton of the tribunal.

BUT as you can see already in the media and BB's all over the world;

They are only publishing the headlines of this case,
but what else is new.

[Mardi]

And so I'm left with this: why would anyone want to compete in the Olympics after a fiasco such as this ?

When you're set down for your horse having a drug in his system that you and your vet have never heard of, and have no idea how he came into contact with it ?

And all you know is that you followed the protocols for the health of your horse during quarantine in Aachen, and subsequent hospitalization in Hong Kong, as was permitted and directed by the FEI ?

My God, why would anyone want to go back.

What a nightmare.

[Wellspotted]

All this is starting to sound like the Spanish Inquisition.

If the Olympics are trying to get rid of equestrian sports, they're certainly going about it in an efficient way. If equestrians decide not to enter future Olympics because of this, the Oympics officials can tell the world, "Well, it wasn't us who took out equestrian sports; it was the equestrians themselves who quit entering."

[whitewolfe001]

I am so sad for Courtney. I believe her 100% that the horse most likely came into contact with some unknown substance topically during his examinations and treatment abroad.

It seems obvious to me that these cases of "doping" are the result of extraordinarily sensitive drug tests that can pick up the most minute traces of substances, so minute that there is no competitive advantage. These horse are high level athletes and some regularly receive topical medications. Medications for animals is produced under much less stringent regulation than medications intended for humans.

I highly, HIGHLY doubt that Courtney, or Ulla, or any other of the top riders who horses have tested positive for minute amounts of banned substances are deliberately doping their horses. I can't imagine how anyone could be that stupid when everyone knows the horses will be tested and the tests are so extremely sensitive. Why is there a "zero tolerance" policy and not a threshhold level established for the drugs?

Are the riders tested too? If so, I hope no one had a poppyseed bagel for breakfast.

[poltroon]

Medications for animals is produced under much less stringent regulation than medications intended for humans.

That is an interesting point. And not just drugs, but any substances intended for animal use or consumption.

Are the riders tested too? If so, I hope no one had a poppyseed bagel for breakfast.

Yes, they are, and they are subject to random at-home testing just as athletes in other sports are.

[ASB Stars]

I sincerely hope that Courtney, and her two brilliant boys, show up for Devon, and that the SRO crowd stands up, and makes enough noise to be heard in Hong Kong, when she does.

She is a fabulously gifted and elegant lady, and rider, and she deserves nothing less!

I promise to clap my hands bruised, and shout my voice horse!

[eks]

How incredibly sad for Courtney...

I am afraid to even give my horse a bath before competitions...

Are we not supposed to turn our horses out now for fear they may happen to eat a sprig of lavender that may have sprouted in their fields?

What is the FEI coming to? I think the USEF and the FEI need to come up with a list of products we are allowed to use...I am paranoid even putting fly spray on my horse!

[CookiePony]

All this is starting to sound like the Spanish Inquisition.

If the Olympics are trying to get rid of equestrian sports, they're certainly going about it in an efficient way. If equestrians decide not to enter future Olympics because of this, the Oympics officials can tell the world, "Well, it wasn't us who took out equestrian sports; it was the equestrians themselves who quit entering."

Positive test results as a result of inadvertent ingestion of a banned substance happens in other sports, though. For example, my OH used to be a rower and knows of men who were disqualified for using Rogaine at an international competition. Apparently is can be used as a masking agent for other drugs. People have also been stripped of medals because of cold medicine given to them by the team doctor. So this is not limited to equestrian sports.

[mmt]

There needs to be some level of "materiality" or clinical effect put into the drug testing since this is really getting ridiculous. Science is to such a level that they assays or other tests will be able to detect minute quantities now that are well below those that would have any clinical impact on a horse's results.

[freestyle2music]

Courtney's reaction on the FEI tribunal descission


http://dressage.com/events/2008/0922courtney.html

[merrygoround]

What a sad turn of events for the team.

Fortunately for Courtney, life can now go on, leaving her older, and wiser, but no better able to prevent a recurrence.

Why in the first place we sent our teams, and horses, to a country with a record of providing toxic products as feed on the international market, and now using toxic products in their infant formula, I will never understand.

[ise@ssl]

The drug issue clearly appears to be cross contamination - which is always impossible to prove in a clinic situation. But I was very shocked to read that the horse was treated 9 times for heart fibulation prior to the start of competition in Hong Kong. Given the heat conditions why compete the horse?

[XHalt]

I sincerely hope that Courtney, and her two brilliant boys, show up for Devon, and that the SRO crowd stands up, and makes enough noise to be heard in Hong Kong, when she does.

She is a fabulously gifted and elegant lady, and rider, and she deserves nothing less!

I promise to clap my hands bruised, and shout my voice horse!

Great idea!!

[NoDQhere]

If this situation wasn't so sad, one could almost laugh at the "Laurel and Hardyness" of it all. It is absolutley ridiculous that ANYONE could be held responsible for such a teeeeeeny weeeeeny amount of something that wouldn't have enhanced performance in any way, anyway. What the he!! has happened to common sense?????

Is it too much to ask that drugs be tested for that can actually enhance performance AT THE LEVEL THAT SAID ENHANCEMENT WOULD HAPPEN???? It really shouldn't be rocket science.

I say to Courtney, "You go girl"!!! You are a wonderful example of class and professionalism.

[Bethe Mounce]

No matter which way drug infractions are sliced, the worst part is how to prove you or your support group didn't give the horse the banned substance. Any international rider/owner/veterinarian knows the rules regarding banned substances; but proving your innocence to keep your reputation intact is nothing short of a miracle.

[canyonoak]

Know your enemy:

http://www.crikey.com.au/Media-Arts-and-Sports/20080801-WADA-is-on-the-verge-of-losing-the-plot.html

[magdelene]

CNN Sports Ticker: Doping. US Olympic Dressage Team loses 4th place.

We are also embarass for our doping cases in Germany. For the sport this is not good.

[poltroon]

Courtney's reaction on the FEI tribunal descission


http://dressage.com/events/2008/0922courtney.html

She wrote:
It is nearly unexplainable situation. Felbinac is a topical anti inflammatory used mainly on humans. It is not approved, manufactured, or available in the US. It is [mainly] used as an over the counter ointment for humans in China, Hong Kong, and the UK, and it is also sometimes used as a coupling agent in ultrasound gels and lubricants in those countries. When we first learned about that use, we suspected that Myth[ilus] may have been exposed to Felbinac during his treatment for his heart in the Hong Kong Jockey Club. However, after doing more research on the drug and having a bio chemist analyze all available data, we learned that the trace amount found in Myth[ilus]'s system could occur from something as distant and arbitrary as a steward using Felbinac on their knee then using a broom, then someone else uses the broom and shakes my grooms hand, and then my groom touches my horse. 14 nanograms per milliliter were found; it takes 7500-100,000 nanograms per milliliter to have an effect on a human. I am left with the feeling that this was rotten for me to have to go through, a terrible shame that both I and the Olympic Team are stripped of their placing and my name now has a tarnish on it. But I'm over that. Everyone did everything right, and it's just one of those things you have to go through sometimes. The heavy feeling that remains is that this will happen again to someone some day, and I do hope that we will take some measures to avoid that.

[ridgeback]

CNN Sports Ticker: Doping. US Olympic Dressage Team loses 4th place.

We are also embarass for our doping cases in Germany. For the sport this is not good.

I don't think any country or rider should be embarrassed what we should be is outraged that riders reputations could be ruined and placements/medals are being taken away because a banned substance is found in such tiny amounts it wouldn't benefit an ant.:mad::no:

[passagedreamer]

I am sorry to type this BUT zero tolerance is zero tolerance !! Plain and simple !

And I am actually surprised that they were kind enough to give ONLY a 1 month suspension !! Come on people, I look at this as if one gets away with it... anyone else can ! She was at the OLYMPICS !!! And that is not saying she was guilty... I am saying "what kind of example is this setting?? "

And that is not stating " use her as an example " either !!! What I am saying is " we have rules for a reason, and not just one but 2 tests were positive - REGARDLESS of the amount "

You all can think I am bashing her or not supporting her, but I support the SPORT !! And I have always followed the rules and READ the rules....

And plain and simple " Myth had 2 positive testings " plain and simple... regardless to guilty or not !!

What this says to me is; push the limits and take a chance ... you only get a month suspension and a fine..

And again, you all can get pissed and think I am being a mean nasty person, but I am only stating how a professional feels about the ruling ( and I am not alone )....and the thing is " I DON'T think she is guilty "

[Indy-lou]

If you don't think she is guilty, why do you think she should be punished?
The current state of things allows anyone to muck with competitors and their horses by the teeniest cross-contamination. I believe (and so do you!) she did not apply any banned substance to the horse. Yet she is being punished. Everyone agrees that the amount of the substance tested for was so tiny as to have no effect. It's like being denied health insurance because you test positive for nicotine, but you don't smoke, you've only been casually around some people who do (say some relatives at Thanksgiving) , and only for the briefest amount of time, but there it is: nicotine in your test. You inhaled it secondhand and you test positive. You are thus ineligible and furthermore branded as someone who falsified your application. Nevermind that the tested amount is something far below what any real smoker would register; You will never get health insurance or life insurance and your name is in the permanent database. Does that feel fair? Zero Tolerance can be screamed from the mountaintops as proof of your failure as a human being and proof of your being an insurance risk. Sorry! Think this is a far out example? It is a true example based on the experience of a co-worker who never smoked cigarettes or anything else, but had the misfortune of being born to an extended family where some did smoke. The rules and testing procedure need to develop standard levels for contamination AND for levels that pertain to performance enhancement. Isn't that what the rules are for in the first place? To prevent any competitor from having an unfair advantage? Come on, just sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating "zero tolerance, zero tolerance" will do nothing to advance the sport and may in fact just contribute to it's demise. Perhaps that is the unstated goal?

[shall]

Given the minuscule amounts found and the serious repercussion, the logical next step is to provide a security cordon with 24x7 video surveillance for all competition horses with zero tolerance for event organizers who cannot provide such.

[DownYonder]

The zero tolerance policy has gone beyond ridiculous. They should have established minimum therapeutic levels for every banned substance. The policy should only kick in if a horse tests above the minimum established level. If a substance is found in such a minute amount that it can't possibly have an effect, then it can't have an effect on the horse's performance. This is a case where science (the advanced technology that allows more and more sophisticated testing) has outstripped reason. Methinks the inmates are running the asylum at FEI.

[showmom07]

This is like the stupid "zero-tolerance" rules in our schools today. Kid with a plastic knife in his lunch box (to spread peanut butter) is suspended for a "weapon." Kid who draws a picture of a gun - suspended. Kid who takes a tylenol - suspended.

Our culture has given up common sense. Adults can no longer distinguish good v. bad on a case by case basis. Hence - zero tolerance, so they don't have to make intelligent distinctions.

[ridgeback]

:eek:I am sorry to type this BUT zero tolerance is zero tolerance !! Plain and simple !

And I am actually surprised that they were kind enough to give ONLY a 1 month suspension !! Come on people, I look at this as if one gets away with it... anyone else can ! She was at the OLYMPICS !!! And that is not saying she was guilty... I am saying "what kind of example is this setting?? "

And that is not stating " use her as an example " either !!! What I am saying is " we have rules for a reason, and not just one but 2 tests were positive - REGARDLESS of the amount "

You all can think I am bashing her or not supporting her, but I support the SPORT !! And I have always followed the rules and READ the rules....

And plain and simple " Myth had 2 positive testings " plain and simple... regardless to guilty or not !!

What this says to me is; push the limits and take a chance ... you only get a month suspension and a fine..

And again, you all can get pissed and think I am being a mean nasty person, but I am only stating how a professional feels about the ruling ( and I am not alone )....and the thing is " I DON'T think she is guilty "


Come on I know you are more reasonable than that??? The horse didn't even have enough in his system to help a rat. It could have been transmitted by a groom shaking someone's hand, I'm sorry but they have to set an amount that is more reasonable then zero tolerance. Imagine if there were medals involved.eek:

[belambi]

This is like the stupid "zero-tolerance" rules in our schools today. Kid with a plastic knife in his lunch box (to spread peanut butter) is suspended for a "weapon." Kid who draws a picture of a gun - suspended. Kid who takes a tylenol - suspended.

Our culture has given up common sense. Adults can no longer distinguish good v. bad on a case by case basis. Hence - zero tolerance, so they don't have to make intelligent distinctions.


ROFLMAO.. because peanut butter is banned in most Australian schools!!

[slc2]

"Come on I know you are more reasonable than that"

Agreeing with your opinion is what makes her 'reasonable'?

That is really not fair.

There are a couple ways to view this - that the FEI drug rules are totally unfair and that the FEI is a bunch of horse's a**** (there have been quite a few insults and name calling of the FEI recently here).

The other view is that the FEI, like a lot of organizations, is struggling with all the new unregulated supplements, feeds, and products out there, and is struggling with how to utilize new drug test results and new technology with more sensitivity, and making that relate to the goal of strict liability and zero tolerance.

It's a very complex and difficult situation they're in and it's very hard to adjust the rules and keep up with all the issues and implications.

The rules are very, very clear, in fact. They state flat out that the list of drugs they publish is NOT inclusive and that they can censure someone for having ANYTHING in the horse. There are no levels of tolerance for a reason, I believe the reason is that it is very difficult to establish levels of tolerance, it also has to somehow make sense with a 'zero drug policy'. That would be hard.

Sorry, but I don't go along with many of the recent insults and jibes at the FEI stated or implied here. I don't think they are really morons. And if having that opinion makes me "unreasonable", so be it.

Having a different opinion doesn't make someone 'unreasonable'. It makes them having a different opinion, that's all. There are a lot of different ways to look at this issue.

[DownYonder]

Sorry, it is UNREASONABLE to have a "zero tolerance policy" for a trace amount so small if cannot POSSIBLY have an effect on the horse.

If the powers that be at FEI do not realize how ridiculous the policy is, then I stand by my statement - they are bunch of looney tunes.

[slc2]

You're welcome to have that POV.

What I wonder is, what would you do if you had a zero drug policy, and the technology became sensitive enough to detect .0000001000123 units of a drug, and you couldn't establish any minimum levels for drugs?

If no one can agree as to how to change a rule, you have to use the rules til they can be changed. You don't have a lot of choice.

Sorry, but I also think Courtney got a very, very light punishment, in fact, a virtual 'non punishment'. She can still ride at the next horse show she was supposed to ride at. Other than a lot of internet p*ssing and moaning and a very brief suspension during a period of time she probably planned to be on vacation anyway, the whole thing didn't do much at all.

I view her 'punishment' as extremely light. People who already like her aren't going to believe anything negative about her from it at all.

[JRG]

I don't view it as a light sentence at all. Yes I agree if people like her it won't matter but, at a time where the powers that be are trying to make dressage main stream the people that are just tuneing in or "google-ing" for the first time, that is what you read about. If I were to put myself in her shoes....I would be upset, especially in light of the other rulings from the jumping side.

Your name in the horse world is what gets your foot in the door. I wouldn't want my name smudged like that. I certainly wouldn't want to be the one that was remembered by the "masses" that I was the one that made the Olympic dressage team loose there standing.

Yes she is a great rider and yes she has trained with some great people and yes she has a lot of accomplishments but when you think about your legacy that you leave, that mark matters.

[ridgeback]

"Come on I know you are more reasonable than that"

Agreeing with your opinion is what makes her 'reasonable'?

That is really not fair.

Having a different opinion doesn't make someone 'unreasonable'. It makes them having a different opinion, that's all. There are a lot of different ways to look at this issue.


Yes and would you please take a rest from this board or at least posting on every subject.:sigh: And I don't need your definition of opinion so please put me on ignore. thank you

[poltroon]

Sorry, it is UNREASONABLE to have a "zero tolerance policy" for a trace amount so small if cannot POSSIBLY have an effect on the horse.

If the powers that be at FEI do not realize how ridiculous the policy is, then I stand by my statement - they are bunch of looney tunes.

I think it depends on the drug. For some drugs, their effect is in withdrawal, and there is no good or innocent reason for that drug to be in contact with any horse or owner. Zero tolerance can make sense in those cases, with some judgement applied. For other substances, some of which aren't "drugs" by the colloquial use of the term, a threshold, perhaps even an informal, private threshold, is the fair and appropriate way to go. It also helps to level the field between different laboratories, which you can expect would have different sensitivity.

[ShannonLee]

I am interested in information on the atrial fibrillation? Any vets out there with experience? How would it affect performance? What is the usual treatment? How well do horses recover from it?

[Ghazzu]

Medications for animals is produced under much less stringent regulation than medications intended for humans.



That is an invalid generalization. Might be true in some places, but not in the US.

[Ghazzu]

I am interested in information on the atrial fibrillation? Any vets out there with experience? How would it affect performance? What is the usual treatment? How well do horses recover from it?

It would have a detrimental effect on performance where a fair physical effort is required because it decreases efficiency of cardiac pumping of blood.
Usual treatment is qunidine, given orally with an NG tube and repeated dosing, under close supervision/monitoring.
Experimentally, electrical cardioversion has been performed.

They may recover just fine, but a horse with recurrences like that would concern me a bit.

Deltawave? Any comments from the human side?

[Ghazzu]

Has anyone considered that the determination of a "minimum therapeutic level" for a very long list of drugs, many of which have no valid veterinary use, would be extremely expensive to generate?

[Wellspotted]

ROFLMAO.. because peanut butter is banned in most Australian schools!!


Why?

[Kelly in NJ]

Why?

Probably to protect students with peanut allergies, that would be my guess...

[poltroon]

Has anyone considered that the determination of a "minimum therapeutic level" for a very long list of drugs, many of which have no valid veterinary use, would be extremely expensive to generate?

Would it be that much more expensive than coming up with the list of things to test for and to run those tests? Who the heck thought to put lavender on the list?

The list of drugs that are actually being found is probably much smaller than the list of potentially verboten substances.

[Ghazzu]

Would it be that much more expensive than coming up with the list of things to test for and to run those tests? Who the heck thought to put lavender on the list?

The list of drugs that are actually being found is probably much smaller than the list of potentially verboten substances.

Yes, I think it would be far more expensive.
Much cheaper to say "no x" than to try to establish what levels of "x" are therapeutic and what aren't.

As for lavender, there are published studies in animals showing an effect on cortisol levels.

[USADressage]

The drug issue clearly appears to be cross contamination - which is always impossible to prove in a clinic situation. But I was very shocked to read that the horse was treated 9 times for heart fibulation prior to the start of competition in Hong Kong. Given the heat conditions why compete the horse?

thank you...it's funny how the 'real elephant in the room' continues to go unnoticed.

the horse...according to the reports...was nearly on his death bed for a couple days; so naturally, it only makes sense to show him in his hardest competition of his life the following week.

[slc2]

Possibly, but with successful treatment horses do seem to 'snap out of it' very quickly.

My concern would be more that during the period when the heart wasn't functioning properly, the horse would have been on light or no work. I would be uncomfortable taking a horse to a really demanding competition after a period off work. If that period was brief it would have less effect.

[ridgeback]

Possibly, but with successful treatment horses do seem to 'snap out of it' very quickly.

My concern would be more that during the period when the heart wasn't functioning properly, the horse would have been on light or no work. I would be uncomfortable taking a horse to a really demanding competition after a period off work. If that period was brief it would have less effect.

Ah yes but they never said the horse's heart went back to normal rhythm they did say they stopped after 9 treatments but not after his heart was normal again.

[slc2]

It was normal enough, evidently.

[J. Turner]

Has anyone considered that the determination of a "minimum therapeutic level" for a very long list of drugs, many of which have no valid veterinary use, would be extremely expensive to generate?

Aren't those already determined by the drug companies? Half-life, etc?

[slc2]

Half life of medications is known, but not clearing times. Because you cannot guarantee that all horses will have the same clearing times.

Some humans have enzymes that cause various drugs to clear faster or slower, Kidney or liver conditions, as well as dehydration and a million other factors can affect clearing times.

No one can say for sure how long a drug will take to clear an individual animal's system down to a specific level.

I think the reason there aren't minimum concentrations defined for equine drugs is that it can't be done. With minimum concentrations one needs to publish clearing time guidelines.

You can't publish a reliable chart of how long someone should wait, for example, after giving a drug, before showing a horse. Each horse could be in a slightly different situation and have different biology and that would affect how long a drug takes to clear.

Too by definition minimum concentrations are problematic in a 'zero drug tolerance' situation.

[Ghazzu]

Aren't those already determined by the drug companies? Half-life, etc?

Half-life doesn't equal minimum therapeutic level.

And what about all the drugs that aren't labelled for horses?
Fluphenazine and reserpine certainly aren't.

[slc2]

of course half life doesn't equal minimum amount, but as soon as you establish minimum time, people want some guarantees about clearing time TO that minimum amount.:)

Mythilus will be off work til the Florida season.

So the horse was fine to go and be ridden at the Olympics, but needs 4 months off.

[Ghazzu]

of course half life doesn't equal minimum amount, but as soon as you establish minimum time, people want some guarantees about clearing time TO that minimum amount.:)

You want to rephrase that so that it makes some small amount of sense?

[slc2]

of course half life doesn't equal minimum amount, but as soon as you establish minimum amount, people want some guarantees about clearing time TO that minimum amount.

[USADressage]

Mythilus will be off work til the Florida season.

So the horse was fine to go and be ridden at the Olympics, but needs 4 months off.

exactly my point!...it really boils down to the fine line of rider's competition goals versus horse's best interest-- sometimes it seems, even the best, most
tactful riders can fall prey to it.

[DownYonder]

exactly my point!...it really boils down to the fine line of rider's competition goals versus horse's best interest-- sometimes it seems, even the best, most
tactful riders can fall prey to it.

It may not have been Courtney's decision. On another thread, it was pointed out that Olympic horses become the "property" of their national federation for the duration of the Olympics. All decisions regarding the horse are made by the national federation, and the owner, rider, and trainer have to take a back seat to what the federation wants. In this case, vets apparently felt the horse could compete, and USEF wasn't going to jeopardize a chance at a medal, so the horse went in the ring.

[slc2]

Possibly.

But if it was a totally new condition, and the horse responded very well to treatment, I don't think the vets or federation would have a crystal ball to see how the future would go or know the horse would then need time off.

I am not sure the rules about how the horse becomes 'the property of the federation during the olympics' mean the owner can't do something if they really feel the federation is doing something bad for the horse's health. I think there are avenues a concerned owner can take if they feel that is happening.

I think the rule is more intended for the opposite case, to be sure the federation can step in if they aren't comfortable with the owner or rider pressing forward with a sick horse, or the like. I am sure if the federation officials were unwise or not highly educated on veterinary matters, or ignored the official vet's input, they could make poor decisions about horse welfare.

My understanding is that the condition is not all that predictable, and that it can pop up unpredictably in healthy fit horses, and that it can clear just as abruptly as it started.

In any case, no matter what decision was made, I don't believe it would have been solely or even mostly, CKD's decision to go ahead or not with the horse.

I don't think anyone can judge with certainty the wisdom of the decision to compete, not with so little information. But it is more worrying to hear the horse is out of competition for a while.

[DownYonder]

I don't think anyone can judge with certainty the wisdom of the decision to compete, not with so little information. But it is more worrying to hear the horse is out of competition for a while.

Agreed, but the horse is no longer under lease to the Olympic process, so USEF is out of the equation at this point. It is now Courtney's and the owner's decision as to whether the horse can compete or should take it easy for a while. And I can certainly see how they have decided that the horse definitely needs to take it easy, since this heart condition has manifested itself again after his return home from Hong Kong.

[slc2]

That's how I think of it too.

I read the story to my SO, and said, 'it now seems the horse needs a break'.

My SO said, 'you don't know yet if he's ever going back to competing, so don't call it a 'break' just yet'.

In other words, 'break' is a 'retrospective concept'.

Gulp.

[KatherineC]

I get annoyed with the guessing, assuming and gossiping that goes on in these threads. If you don't know the exact details of the medical condition and treatment of this horse then anything you say is speculation at best. The only way to know the exact details was to have been present during the treatment. There are probably only a handful of people who were there.

Your assumptions are leading to questions regarding Courtney's horsmanship skills and ethics. That is not the purpose of this BB. If you need to know what happened, call her. She has got a published phone number.

[slc2]

Actually, it's the opposite. I don't think anyone has information to question CKD's horsemanship at all based on the events around the olympics, and I think this thread makes that even more clear, because so much isn't known to the public and there are so many possibilities of what can happen in these situations. Too, I've read that the heart condition can pop up and disappear very unpredictably in totally healthy horses, and i don't believe anyone can tell exactly how it will come out without a crystal ball.

DY and others have made very clear, whatever happens at an olympic event, it's possible the rider may have very little to do with decisions made about the horse. Right there, you can't POSSIBLY assume the rider is deciding 'oh gee, i'll just ride anyway'. Because according to the rules they may have very little say one way or the other.

[DownYonder]

I get annoyed with the guessing, assuming and gossiping that goes on in these threads. If you don't know the exact details of the medical condition and treatment of this horse then anything you say is speculation at best. The only way to know the exact details was to have been present during the treatment. There are probably only a handful of people who were there.

Your assumptions are leading to questions regarding Courtney's horsmanship skills and ethics. That is not the purpose of this BB. If you need to know what happened, call her. She has got a published phone number.

I certainly hope this wasn't directed at me, because I am in no way questioning Courtney's horsemanship skills and ethics. I am in fact, doing the exact opposite by stating that the decision to compete in HK was out of her hands.

I don't know Courtney, have never met her, talked to her, or even seen her ride in person, but everything I have heard about her leads me to believe that she is an honest, ethical, and caring horsewoman. I am very sorry she got bit by this ridiculous "zero tolerance" policy, but am delighted she was able to compete at Devon. Kudos to her for weathering it all with grace.

[ise@ssl]

I thought the point of having an ALTERNATE was to have a horse/rider ready to go if anything happened to another horse (or rider) on the team. I don't think anyone is challenging the integrity of Courtney - what I have a problem with is the Vet and others who made the decision that the horse was capable of competing at maximum given the weather conditions in Hong Kong and the issues involving his heart.

I'm having a problem understanding why the decision makers would opt to send in a horse that was obviously not 100% when they had another one that was NOT having problems. It's my understanding from the write up on Dressage Daily that Mithylus is being rested due to the condition because he had an episode after returning here. Why didn't the Team Vet make that recommendation in Hong Kong? Just my humble opinion but watching the Keurs on video - the horse did not look like he was 100%.

I know the policy of pulling horses is taken from the owners/riders/trainers but who made the decision to let this horse compete under these stressful weather conditions, given the physical circumstances? I know from my later mother's heart issues that weather conditions DID affect her significantly - I have to believe this is true for horses as well.

[slc2]

I think some cases of fibrillation due to underlying disease could be affected by weather stress. But I'm not sure that's always true of all cases. I think some cases arise in perfectly healthy unstressed horses for no detectable reason (no identifiable heart insufficiency).

I'm uncomfortable with the events surrounding this horse too. I just don't want to make any firm conclusions about who is at fault or where this went wrong. I don't want to assume CKD was at fault. I don't even want to assume our federation and our team officials were irresponsible.

Most of the time, very little information about this sort of thing is published, and the public is left to speculate and wonder.

People 'speculate', I believe, mostly because they don't really know all the details. It might be that if all the decisions and details were known the events would make much more sense, and it would look like no one screwed up. OTherwise, people will just assume the error was made by whomever they have a beef with or don't particularly like. For many baby boomers- that's the organization. Automatically.

[KatherineC]

Unfortunately speculating in a public forum can lead to all sorts of conclusions being drawn that could be damaging or hurtful. Especially if you do not take time to read the complete threads as comments could be out of context. If you were CKD how would you feel reading some of the points discussed about her and her horse on this BB recently? Many have been positive and kind, others have not.

[ise@ssl]

Well I'm not making comments about Courtney.

I'm questioning the polices of the PEOPLE who make the decisions on when the horses compete or don't - for me that's the bigger issue here. Obviously riders can verbalize when they aren't able to ride - horses CAN'T.

[Ajierene]

As far as the ruling goes, while I do not think Courtney King did anything to her horse on purpose, she is subject to something an organization has to do because of all the unscrupulous people out there. While the substance is not used traditionally on horses, it is possible that someone might think that since medication X that they use on their sore horse to make him trot up well is banned, so they experiment and find Felbinac (sp?). Well, this is not used on horses, not on the official ban list - they likely aren't going to test for it. So use it on the sore horse that shouldn't be competing and hope no one notices. While the amount found may be the contracted by the horse in the fashion Courtney speculated, it may also be found in a similar amount given time for some to metabolize out and the area hosed off immediately after competition, etc.

While I do not think that Courtney did anything on purpose, the organization unfortunately adopts these rules to cut down on the people that are being unscrupulous. Innocent people get caught in the cross fire, unfortunately.

A likely result will be that all hand lotions and other topical medications taken to the Olympics by grooms, riders, etc. will be much more closely monitored.

[slc2]

People are bound to wonder what happened because they don't know what happened. Who they blame without knowing who is at fault, I think is just defined by their own POV's.

It's entirely possible there is no one at fault, that it was an accident, it's also possible that the organizations, coaches, vets and other officials aren't at fault either. Rules are always imperfect, especially athletic drug test, medications and amount rules. Especially with unregulated supplements and feeds and products, it's pretty hard to keep rules in line with what's going on out there.

[YankeeLawyer]

I do find it ironic that the FEI is sufficiently concerned about the presence of a few nanograms of a substance (which everyone agrees could not have enhanced performance and was not intentionally administered) to disqualify the horse, but when confronted with the same horse's serious medical condition immediately preceding the competition, they give him the green light. I am not in any way questioning CKD or the decisions of her Team, but rather the FEI's priorities and judgment, which I think are up their butt, frankly. Allowing Myth to compete may very well have been reasonable under the circumstances, but I have a lot of trouble with the FEI's incongruous decisions.

[YankeeLawyer]

By the way, Ms. King-Dye does provide updates on her website at www.courtneykingdressage.com:


Latest Update: September 23, 2008 - Moving forward.

First, I want to thank all of you who have written in to support me... although with everything going on I have not been able to respond to each note, they all mean a great deal to me and are very much appreciated.
I am off to Dressage at Devon tomorrow. Myth will not compete as he is getting some recovery time, his heart was successfully converted on Friday, thanks to the excellent staff at Cornell. Idy is great. I was torn whether to take him to Devon or not, but I decided not to. We have been thoroughly enjoying hacking and playing with the GP stuff, but I haven't had the heart to really drill and push him. He's done so much, and if he wants to hack, well, I kinda just let him. I asked to just take him to Devon and do a demo instead... I think he'd enjoy that, but it couldn't work with their timing, so he is staying home. I will take Francine Walker's new horse Villeneuve and Kim Boyer's Grandioso just to school, Anne Wood's Jubilant and my own Harmony's Wyoming will do the PSG. My assistant/barn manager Jennifer Marchand will do the 4th level on Wendy Curran's Mystras. I'm looking forward to going to the show... just moving on with life!

I am glad to hear that Myth is doing better.

[slc2]

I'm not ready to assume anyone could have told the horse would need a rest later, or that his fibrillation would return. I have questions but I doubt someone like me would ever be able to get all the information needed to do anything other than just wonder about it.

I think it's very ironic that people are having hysterics about the merest suggestion of anyone pondering the rider's role in this, where as they are very ready to assume the vet or other officials threw the horse into the ring when he was at death's door.

[ridgeback]

I'm not ready to assume anyone could have told the horse would need a rest later, or that his fibrillation would return. I have questions but I doubt someone like me would ever be able to get all the information needed to do anything other than just wonder about it.

I think it's very ironic that people are having hysterics about the merest suggestion of anyone pondering the rider's role in this, where as they are very ready to assume the vet or other officials threw the horse into the ring when he was at death's door.

Where are the hysterics? My goodness you overreact don't you...By the way they never said that Myth's heart went back to normal after the treatments in hong kong so you are assuming it came back maybe it never went away and Cornell fixed the first one..

[slc2]

they also never said it didn't go back to normal. he looked pretty peppy while she was riding him in the olympics. he didn't look tired or weak. a horse can't really do a grand prix test if they really are sick or not feeling well.

i'm really not sure fibrillation is that predictable, anyway.

oh...and to have ordering me to put you on ignore make sense, you would not be responding to my posts. :)

[ridgeback]

they also never said it didn't go back to normal. he looked pretty peppy while she was riding him in the olympics. he didn't look tired or weak. a horse can't really do a grand prix test if they really are sick or not feeling well.

i'm really not sure fibrillation is that predictable, anyway.

oh...and to have ordering me to put you on ignore make sense, you would not be responding to my posts. :)


I would think if the horse had converted they would have said so.. We really don't know how a horse will react when its heart is in filbrillation besides a grand prix dressage test isn't like running a race or eventing where the reseach shows it is more important those horses be converted or stop competing.. I am glad to hear Myth's heart is back to normal.

I can respond to your posts you just won't see mine:) And as for ordering you, for godsake I never ordered you to do anything.. I said, "so please put me on ignore" SO please get in straight when you are going to respond to me or say I said something....SIGH

[mbarrett]

I have not read the entire thread. The only thing I can say is that's it's sad the FEI cannot/will not guarantee the cleanliness/hygiene of the vet hospital, equipment and staff at the Olympic games.

If they are so concerned about their drug rules, they should have absolutely clean or brand new equipment to be used. Nothing should be used that can't be verified that it is "clean" of any banned substances. They should not even allow any substances/drugs that are banned in the Olympic games in that vet clinic in Hong Kong.

Her horse must have been accidently exposed to an illegal agent and it was not her fault. It's the FEI's fault for not making sure everything at their contracted vet clinic is "clean."

Shame on the FEI.

[ceffyl]

I have not read the entire thread. The only thing I can say is that's it's sad the FEI cannot/will not guarantee the cleanliness/hygiene of the vet hospital, equipment and staff at the Olympic games.

If they are so concerned about their drug rules, they should have absolutely clean or brand new equipment to be used. Nothing should be used that can't be verified that it is "clean" of any banned substances. They should not even allow any substances/drugs that are banned in the Olympic games in that vet clinic in Hong Kong.

Her horse must have been accidently exposed to an illegal agent and it was not her fault. It's the FEI's fault for not making sure everything at their contracted vet clinic is "clean."

Shame on the FEI.


It is only a theory / suggestion / assumption by the CKD team that the exposure took place at Sha Tin. For all any of us know it could have occured elsewhere. The amount found could have also been residual from exposure even prior to arrival in HK.

To say they should not have any banned substances in a vet clinic is ridiculous. What the heck are they supposed to keep for medical needs = saline solution only??? Get a brain.

[scheibyee]

okay kind of off on a tangent here but an interesting perspective. Beezie Madden was saying a few weekends ago about how one of the showjumping horses got tested positive for HUMAN influenza at the Olympics. It's impossible for a horse to have human influenza but the FEI retested this horse because they found it. Of course he came up negative and they concluded that one of the handlers of the horse must've had traces of it, but if one of the handlers strands of human influenza would show up on these tests, how're we to believe in the realistics of the situation. I think FEI technology is so enhanced, that the people using it aren't sure of what to make of the results and I think it's causing a lot more problems than it's currently solving but of course that's just my opinion. I'm sure the advancement will eventually be a wonderful asset, however the detrimental effects that it's having on riders who have done nothing wrong is very unfortunate.

[Ghazzu]

okay kind of off on a tangent here but an interesting perspective. Beezie Madden was saying a few weekends ago about how one of the showjumping horses got tested positive for HUMAN influenza at the Olympics. It's impossible for a horse to have human influenza but the FEI retested this horse because they found it. Of course he came up negative and they concluded that one of the handlers of the horse must've had traces of it, but if one of the handlers strands of human influenza would show up on these tests, how're we to believe in the realistics of the situation. I think FEI technology is so enhanced, that the people using it aren't sure of what to make of the results and I think it's causing a lot more problems than it's currently solving but of course that's just my opinion. I'm sure the advancement will eventually be a wonderful asset, however the detrimental effects that it's having on riders who have done nothing wrong is very unfortunate.

My guess is that PCR was used to test for influenza, and the methodology amplifies the traces of the organism being tested for.

Apples and oranges.

[YankeeLawyer]

To say they should not have any banned substances in a vet clinic is ridiculous. What the heck are they supposed to keep for medical needs = saline solution only???

Also, under the FEI rules that apply to emergencies arising during competition, substances that are otherwise prohibited may be used to treat the horse; the FEI vets have discretion to approve the use and also to permit the horse to continue in the competition. The problem here is that the horse was somehow exposed to Felbinac; that was not among the drugs he was supposed to be treated with for the afib (or anything else) and would not have been among the ones given the green light by the FEI vets.

[hsheffield]

as for rider accountability:

try reading the papers that riders going to the Olympics have to sign. I think they're still on the USEF website under high performance dressage.

the way I read them, you basically give up control of your horse (you sign the equivalent of a lease agreement) and the USEF can dictate medical procedures on your horse (for which owners have to pay.)

it's hard to blame the riders for too much given these circumstances IMHO.

[mbarrett]

Also, under the FEI rules that apply to emergencies arising during competition, substances that are otherwise prohibited may be used to treat the horse; the FEI vets have discretion to approve the use and also to permit the horse to continue in the competition. The problem here is that the horse was somehow exposed to Felbinac; that was not among the drugs he was supposed to be treated with for the afib (or anything else) and would not have been among the ones given the green light by the FEI vets.

Thank you!

As to ceffyl, I do have a brain. The horse picked up the substance somewhere, the Sha Tin vet clinic is a pretty good bet.

I think it's terrible that the FEI can't protect horses from picking up banned substances in their approved clinics. If I was an owner or rider, I'd be a little concerned if my horse was "clean" coming to the Olympics and my horse picked up a banned substance at the vet clinic. I realize in emergencies horses may have to be treated with substances that aren't usually allowed in competition, but this is crazy.

[ceffyl]

Thank you!.

I think it's terrible that the FEI can't protect horses from picking up banned substances in their approved clinics. If I was an owner or rider, I'd be a little concerned if my horse was "clean" coming to the Olympics and my horse picked up a banned substance at the vet clinic. I realize in emergencies horses may have to be treated with substances that aren't usually allowed in competition, but this is crazy.

WHERE is the PROOF he picked up Felbinac residue at the SHa Tin clinic??? No good slandering the FEI over this. How do YOU know the horse was clean going into HK??? It was NOT tested on arrival, only post competition.

[Spoilsport]

WHERE is the PROOF he picked up Felbinac residue at the Sha Tin clinic??? No good slandering the FEI over this. How do YOU know the horse was clean going into HK??? It was NOT tested on arrival, only post competition.

I think it's a pretty good bet that he didn't pick it up at the clinic. If you read Courtney's comments after the FEI decision, she pretty much backed away from that theory. Only on the internet has it taken a life of its own and become "fact."

I've liked your posts, ceffyl. Funny how in the knee-jerk defense of Courtney people have no qualms about slandering everyone else ;)

[ceffyl]

I think it's a pretty good bet that he didn't pick it up at the clinic. If you read Courtney's comments after the FEI decision, she pretty much back away from that theory. Only on the internet has it taken a life of its own and become "fact."

I've liked your posts, ceffyl. Funny how in the knee-jerk defense of Courtney people have no qualms about slandering everyone else ;)

THANK YOU! I have no feelings either way about CKD, or the FEI tribunal's "sentencing" for her (though she did get off lightly compared to past banned substance cases with similar token amounts in a test result).

I am very sorry the US team lost their 4th place.

However I do wish CKD would take some professional help on her press releases to ensure her statements are correct in fact.

The original statement of "neither myself nor my vets had ever heard of Felbinac" was misleading. Dr Rick Mitchell is an advising veterinarian to the USEF and therefore fully aware (or should be - otherwise what the heck is a vet doing NOT knowing what is on list that is drawn up with consultation from USEF veterinarians) of the USEF Banned Substance list of which Felbinac is listed. He does not have to memorise the list but he SHOULD have heard of Felbinac.

"Felbinac is not available in the USA" - Yes Courtney it is, many US sport physios use tape impregnated with Felbinac for muscular strains, AND you can easily by the 3% Felbinac gel via online from Canada. It is not LICENSED for use in the USA but that does not mean you cannot obtain it there. For a while there was even a laminitis topical application (paste) available in the USA containing Felbinac, later withdrawn as an ingredient.

Her last post "It is not approved, manufactured, or available in the U.S. It is mainly used as an over-the-counter ointment for humans in China, Hong Kong, and the United Kingdom." It is NOT over the counter in the UK - PRESCRIPTION ONLY. Minor issue but facts are facts. But it is available in Germany where the horse was prior to HK.

The reputation of the Sha Tin clinic could have been damaged, and I sincerely hope this has not been the case. Too hasty an assumption that it was the source of contamination.

[mbarrett]

I think it's a pretty good bet that he didn't pick it up at the clinic. If you read Courtney's comments after the FEI decision, she pretty much backed away from that theory. Only on the internet has it taken a life of its own and become "fact."

I've liked your posts, ceffyl. Funny how in the knee-jerk defense of Courtney people have no qualms about slandering everyone else ;)


I stand corrected, I guess I can't believe everything I read on the internet or press releases.

However, I am not a "Courtney person" and don't call me one.

My concern from the get-go was the concerns of possible contamination of a prohibited substance at the of the vet clinic at Sha Tin. I guess I was wrong on that point too.

As far as the FEI, they have a lot of problems and need to get their house in order. They are the ultimate European good-ole boys club, in my opinion.

[YankeeLawyer]

I stand corrected, I guess I can't believe everything I read on the internet or press releases.

However, I am not a "Courtney person" and don't call me one.

My concern from the get-go was the concerns of possible contamination of a prohibited substance at the of the vet clinic at Sha Tin. I guess I was wrong on that point too.



I am a Courtney person and have no problem saying so. Apart from that, though, NO ONE KNOWS how this horse was exposed to Felbinac. It could have occurred before arriving in Hong Kong, or during his stay there. It is not improbable that it occurred while he was at that vet clinic, given the number of procedures he underwent and who knows how many people / other horses, etc. he was exposed to. It is also possible that the samples were contaminated, either during collection or at the lab. Or any number of other possible scenarios (including the possibility of manufacturing contamination -- did anyone look into whether the meds that were knowingly administered to treat Myth happened to come from the same manufacturer as felbinac?).

I am not sure what the basis is for the view that Courtney "pretty much backed away" from the theory that accidental exposure could have occurred at the vet clinic. Her position was that she does not know the source of the exposure, and she offered some possible scenarios of how accidental exposure might have occurred in an attempt to demonstrate how easily one might end up testing positive for trace amounts of a prohibited substance.

Regarding Dr. Mitchell, you might ask him directly whether he had previously heard of Felbinac and see what he says about that before assuming that Courtney mischaracterized his level of knowledge about that particular drug.

[ceffyl]

Regarding Dr. Mitchell, you might ask him directly whether he had previously heard of Felbinac and see what he says about that before assuming that Courtney mischaracterized his level of knowledge about that particular drug.

The matter of Dr Mitchell's claim (as reported by CKD) is being taken up formally with the USEF. As a director of a company, and shareholder of another 2, manufacturing canine, equine, and human medicinal and therapeutic topical applications we are concerned that an organisation such as the USEF creates a banned substance list seemingly WITHOUT conferring with their own advising veterinarians, of which Dr Mitchell is listed as.

The FEI has not handled any of the Olympic cases well. However as much to blame are the officials behind the riders of each country, not in the least the USEF who sent the American teams out there apparantly with veterinarians with not a clue of substances banned in their own country of origin let alone under FEI Olympic rules.

[Spoilsport]

However, I am not a "Courtney person" and don't call me one.

I didn't call anyone a Courtney person :lol: Had I used commas, this is how that sentence would have read:

Funny how, in the knee-jerk defense of Courtney, people have no qualms about slandering everyone else.

That's the only interpretation that makes any grammatical sense ;) But, in any event, I have no problems with "Courtney people" defending her. By that I mean people (and I know a few) who know her pretty well. I understand loyalty, and I do take into account what they say. But, as self-admitted "Courtney person" YankeeLawyer said, no one knows how the Felbinac got into Myth. Courtney made statements in her first press release that led some people - right here - to state as fact that Myth was contaminated at the clinic. A few days ago - right here - someone even suggested punishing the Chinese vet who supposedly contaminated him :rolleyes: Whether Courtney has "backed away" from her original statement is a matter of interpretation, and I'm not going to get into a debate about it with another lawyer :lol:

[YankeeLawyer]

The FEI has not handled any of the Olympic cases well. However as much to blame are the officials behind the riders of each country, not in the least the USEF who sent the American teams out there apparantly with veterinarians with not a clue of substances banned in their own country of origin let alone under FEI Olympic rules.

I do not disagree with that ;)

[Spoilsport]

I do not disagree with that ;)

Me neither!! Yay, we can all agree on something :winkgrin:

[YankeeLawyer]

Me neither!! Yay, we can all agree on something :winkgrin:

I know; I am laughing ; )

[ceffyl]

I know; I am laughing ; )

WAIT FOR IT - someone is bound to disagree!!! :winkgrin:

[hershey7]

As if ANY rider at that level would actually be involved with doping their horse... it's ridiculous! (Others, who knows, but the rider... doubtful since it's their reputation and livelihood). That aside, anyone who knows anything about how CKD started out and over many years of hard work, she worked her way up with Lendon Gray (a successful Olympian herself) as her mentor. CKD has performed brilliantly at the international level without doping horses -- and she has successfully trained numerous horses to high levels. That speaks volumes of the talent CKD has. I highly doubt she would need to dope a horse. So if anyone wants to go on and on about this, please do everyone else a favor and keep it to yourself!

[ridgeback]

I love it you state ENOUGH ALREADY yet this thread has been dead for 8 days and you bring it up again:lol::lol::lol: Me thinks you want to stir the pot....

[Equibrit]

As if ANY rider at that level would actually be involved with doping their horse... it's ridiculous! (Others, who knows, but the rider... doubtful since it's their reputation and livelihood). That aside, anyone who knows anything about how CKD started out and over many years of hard work, she worked her way up with Lendon Gray (a successful Olympian herself) as her mentor. CKD has performed brilliantly at the international level without doping horses -- and she has successfully trained numerous horses to high levels. That speaks volumes of the talent CKD has. I highly doubt she would need to dope a horse. So if anyone wants to go on and on about this, please do everyone else a favor and keep it to yourself!


BLAHLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH ..................go back from whence you came!