Bit question

[Karma]

My mare is just learning to wear a bridle and "carry" the bit. However, the problem is just that- she isn't learning to carry the bit. I don't want to use a flash right off as I would like her to learn to hold the bit quietly and comfortably. I am using a loose ring french link that my dentist felt would fit her mouth conformation well. She has been doing a lot of attempting to spit the bit out, mouthing it with her tongue, putting her tongue over the bit when I do not have it set very high in her mouth. She will then quiet for a little while, especially at the walk, but when she transitions into trot she begins to fuss again. In particular- she holds her lips away from the bit and retracts her tongue until only half is under the bit and the rest in pulled back into her mouth. She will trot around like this and it looks uncomfortable and unappealing. She isn't necessary crossing her jaw or chewing the bit, just holding her mouth partially open and away from the bit. She will also invert and go giraffe for a few strides. She will find a more neutral way to carry her head, but often leaving her mouth still partially open, as seen in my blurry blog pictures ;-)

I am wondering if this is just a time issue, a bit-fit issue, a horsey preference issue or other.

[pintopiaffe]

Sounds to me like it's not the right mouthpiece.

I am in the minority, but I find looserings to be very, very busy for youngsters. I prefer something more stable. My preference is fullcheek, but eggbutt is ok too. You might need a dropped noseband of some sort if you want to stay with the loosering, in order to stablize it. *I* prefer a more stable bit. After the first month of NO contact, I do use a drop for a short while when they are first learning ground driving, to come into contact on sidereins etc. so they don't ever learn to avoid.

If she's drawing lips and tongue away, the shape may not be right, or it may be to thick. Thicker is not kinder. Some horses hate french links/beans, some love them. Some appreciate curved arms like JP or Myler bits.

It's her mouth, why not let her decide?

Most of my babies start happily in a JP fullcheek. The occasional one comes along that we try a couple until I find one they are soft and quiet in.

It's great that you asked your dentist--but is it a real rider/trainer? Honestly, the 'real' dentist I use knows very little about bitting and action, my vet (whom I prefer) knows less--and he's a former eventer. If you dentist IS really a trainer who is into bitting, then definitely defer to him/her.

Or defer to the horse. ;)

[Karma]

thanks for the input, I was questioning if the busy mouth was normal for her stage and just something she would work through or a real "fit" issue. I can certainly try other mouthpieces. My dentist is a vet and not a trainer, but comments on bit fit related to the oral structures of the mouth and as you said thinker would not work for her. The bit is fairly narrow without being harsh or cutting thin, but not thick as she does not have the space in her mouth for a large diameter bit.

I seems as you are saying that this is not a typical youngster figuring things out and this is more discomfort?

[Dixon]

All the behavior you're describing is precisely what a flash will help prevent. Put a flash on her before her habits become so engrained she doesn't know how to work without fussing. And raise the bit in her mouth -- it sounds way too low. You are almost begging her to fuss with the bit.

[Petstorejunkie]

my guess is she's responding to the "noisiness" of the loose ring. they send micro vibrations into the mouth which is stimulating for a more advanced horse, but for a youngster it can be agonizing! pick something more stable to start maybe just a plain ol single joint eggbutt, or a mullen of some sort.
Don't sell yourself short and resort to the gadgetry of a flash, leave that garbage in the tack box.

[hoopoe]

She has been doing a lot of attempting to spit the bit out, mouthing it with her tongue, putting her tongue over the bit when I do not have it set very high in her mouth.

It really serves no purpose but to annoy not having the bit adjusted appropriately high. A loose low set bit will more likely to cause pain via the tongue getting over and will not encourage the horse to carry the bit quietly.

agree also that thicker is not always kinder.

Personally I like the bean shaped type French over the flat plate. I don't see that you say which kind you are using.

[Karma]

Thanks guys, I will be trying an eggbutt frenchie tonight.

Dixon- although you say to use a flash you don't specify why she might be fussing and I don't want to just shut her mouth without understanding why she is fussing, I dont want to transfer a resistance to another venue.

Petstorejunkie- I didn't think about how much movement there might be in a loosering as many horses I have ridden seemed to like them, but I will see what happens with a more stable eggbutt

HooPoe- I understand the bit needs to set up in the mouth, but I feel like the adjustment is about one hole or two over where it would be most confortable for her. When it was adjusted down one hole she was quieter in the mouth, but got her tongue over in the upward transition. Right now I am using a flat plate sort of bit as I dont have a spare bean frenchie lying around, I personally think the bean is nicer too.

[TheHunterKid90]

sounds like the loose ring is too busy of a bit for her right now.
I would honestly try a full cheek (great steering included! =D)
Depending on the horse though, it can be an advantage to have a busy bit.
I started a seriously psychotic WB this spring and I put one of the copper hanging keys full cheeks in his mouth to break him and my God it was amazing. He was too busy gnawing and playing with the keys he didn't care that I was on his back. (much better then the first time I attempted to get on. ;) ) Obviously not a legal bit but it kept me alive anyways!
Kept him in that for 2 weeks and then through a full cheek in his mouth and he was great. The constant gnawing and playing got a little annoying though. hhaa

[Dixon]

Dixon- although you say to use a flash you don't specify why she might be fussing and I don't want to just shut her mouth without understanding why she is fussing, I dont want to transfer a resistance to another venue.

Well yes I noted that the reason for her fussing was that you hung the bit too low in her mouth. When the bit's too low, and not up against the corners of the horse's mouth, it can clang against the horse's teeth, and it feels to the horse like the bit should be either chewed on, spit out or swallowed, rather than left alone to provide communication from the rider. That is why your horse had been alternating between sucking it up into her mouth and putting her tongue over it in an attempt to spit it out or at least hold it steady, and otherwise messing with it. So raise it up into the corners of her mouth where every snaffle SHOULD be, and put the flash on her as a way to tell her "THIS is how I want you to hold the bit -- quietly." You seem to view the flash as some sort of cruel weapon of force, when all it is is a tool to help the horse learn what the bit should feel like when the horse's mouth is properly quiet and compliant. Honestly, if you think a flash is so oppressive that you'd rather teach your mare to evade the bit for perpetuity, I am surprised you even subject her to a bridle.

[eventchic33]

How old is the horse? obviously fairly young right? and like all small children she is fussing with something new. I would recommend raising the bit to where it should be, you are only giving her an excuse to fuss more. Now, I am going to suggest something that I am sure everyone will be horrified by. Put the bridle on her, take the reins off and put her in the stall and leave her for a few hours. do this for several days. She will learn to hold the bit on her own without your hands in any way interfering. I even allow my youngsters to eat a little, while I watch, to let them become fully comfortable with it.

[pony grandma]

Hanging a bit too low teaches them they can put their tongue over a bit, and yes.. it bangs on their teeth also.

I have used a very soft rubber mullen on an old headstall, well fitted in their mouth and leave it on them to eat -- eating takes their mind off of the bit and they soon learn that the bit lies there while they eat. If they fuss after eating then I remove it, try again the next day and leave it on for longer periods of time as they remain quiet with it.

I am with the folks regarding a solid non moving parts bit. Full cheeks are nice, but can't use with a flash. They give more directional signal for learning to turn. We use a full cheek curved mouthpiece for beginning training.

Do let us know what you discover works for you. It is all about listening to the horse.

[MissBri]

Yup we always bitted by placing it on the youngster then letting them figure it out on their own - very similar to PonyGrandma

[Karma]

Thanks for all the commentary!

Here's what worked...

I thought the bit was pretty high up there- beyond the two wrinkles in the corner of the mouth, but appearntly not high enough to prevent the tongue over the bit- one concern. So we punched two more holes and move the bit up one hole and so-far, so-good.

The BIGGIE- I switched to an eggbutt! As soon as I put the new bit in, she held it more quietly. She still occasionally fusses with it, but more as I would expect at this stage of her training and experience.

She is much quieter in her mouth with the new bit that was moved up one hole!

[Roan]

Anyone look at the pictures in her blog?

IMO that bit is *waaay* too high in that horse's mouth and is probably bumping her molars.

I'd stick with an eggbutt or full cheek and a drop noseband for a youngster, drop the bit DOWN until she's just smiling a little. No contact until she gets used to carrying it.

My 2 cents
Eileen

[Karma]

Wow, too high, too low- there is no concensus when people are looking at things each from their own view point. Luckily we all seem to be happy with the current arrangement in the new bit. I guess the old adage goes, "ask 10 horsepeople and get 12 different answers" ;-)

[Roan]

Karma,

I don't think anyone on here even looked at the pictures. If they had, someone would have said something about the bit location.

Seriously.

How about posting some better pictures directly linked here so that others will actually go and look at how it's placed in her mouth? Head shots, please.

Eileen