Should Training Level Freestyles Be Allowed?

[Mike Matson]

Should the USDF permit Training Level freestyles? If so, why?

[merrygoround]

No!!!

I can think of a number of reasons why not.
Time, quality of riding, quality of music, etc. etc.

[not again]

Check with USPC.;)

[jcotton]

No!!! It's bad enough to have intro classes.
If you think a first level freestyle is moderately boring, just think how much more boring a training level freestyle would be.

Is that a 20 meter circle or an 20 meter square to music?
What was that working trot or jog?

[crthunder]

Yes - at schooling shows :)

I showed my older horse in a training level freestyle (USPC) and it was a blast. And they don't take long :)

Becky

[oldenmare]

We have TL freestyles at our schooling shows (using the PC test) - they're a blast and while not the most creative, the riders and spectators seem to enjoy them.

At Recognized - well, its a good warm-up for First Level and with the qualifying score being adequate (say at least 68% at TL4) - then hopefully you'll get circles and working trot instead of squares and jogging. Gotta love that attitude of encouragement from some!!! Who says this sport is elitist!!!!

Seriously - what's the diff - if people are willing to pay to show in it - I say go for it (but I'm something of a bottom line person when it comes to running shows!).

[CatOnLap]

No.
Because I'd rather be in my kitchen watching the walls dry.
And because at our oversubscribed shows, people riding the FEI levels sometimes don't get in because of the plethora of TL tests.

[ToN Farm]

No.
Because I'd rather be in my kitchen watching the walls dry.
And because at our oversubscribed shows, people riding the FEI levels sometimes don't get in because of the plethora of TL tests.

NO. I agree with the above reason. I like Freestyles, but I do find the music annoying when I am warming up or riding a test.

[retrofit]

NO. For all the reasons stated above.

[see u at x]

No!!! It's bad enough to have intro classes.
If you think a first level freestyle is moderately boring, just think how much more boring a training level freestyle would be.

Is that a 20 meter circle or an 20 meter square to music?
What was that working trot or jog?

Wow, I didn't think that the purpose of dressage shows was to be exciting and thrilling for the audience. If that's the case, then I guess I'll just wait to show until my horse and I have reached 4th level, because God forbid, I don't want to bore anyone. :rolleyes: Frankly, if I don't like someone's test, I don't watch it. There are plenty of other tests to watch at a recognized show and insofar as if it's a 20 meter circle vs. a 20 meter square, well, I'd think that people would be a little bit more compassionate since we've all had to start somewhere. But I guess a lot of people seem to forget that.

[redpony]

At their October rated show my barn is hosting a division called the Northeast Regional Amateur Dressage Champioships that not only allows but encourages Training level FS's. Check it out at www.mysticvalleyhuntclub.com, under the showing tab labeled NRADC.
We're offereing a beautiful new ring dedicated to the division, nice prizes and big ribbons. Judging from the interest and buzz created I think there's quite a market for this. There's even a schooling show on the Friday before where you can "practice" your test and FS. The division is not recognized, but it gives the LL riders a chance to try out their FS in a show atmosphere. Hopefully, show/divisions similiar to this will encourage more people to think about doing a FS. That will broaden the base of the sport and can only help it.

[CatOnLap]

Wow, I didn't think that the purpose of dressage shows was to be exciting and thrilling for the audience. If that's the case, then I guess I'll just wait to show until my horse and I have reached 4th level, because God forbid, I don't want to bore anyone.
Well, actually, all those TL tests can be QUITE entertaining at times. But not usually for their "dressage" work.

And in all forms of "shows", as the song says:

"If there's no audience, there ain't no show"

We do need to strike a balance between those kindergarten dressage tests and the ones where one can actually learn something about dressage and where one can aim for. I went to watch a recognized dressage show at the town's largest venue yesterday. 60 tests:
1 PSG test.
2 third level tests.
11 second
15 first level
27 TL and 4 walk trot tests

Yawn. I stayed to watch the one PSG test and left. Thank god they don't offer TL and WT freestyles. Because the first level freestyles were a big yawn too.

I met 3 or 4 other 3rd/4th/PSG riders who said even though they had sent their entries in on time, they arrived after the TL's, so they could not show.

I'm all for supporting the lower levels. But we need to allow our more experienced riders to exhibit too and there is only so much time in day.

[Dressage62]

All those lower level rides help support the show financially. Otherwise, there would be no show. Any sport is like that-- very few are at the top level.

[AccidentsJustHappen]

Wow, I didn't think that the purpose of dressage shows was to be exciting and thrilling for the audience. If that's the case, then I guess I'll just wait to show until my horse and I have reached 4th level, because God forbid, I don't want to bore anyone. :rolleyes: Frankly, if I don't like someone's test, I don't watch it. There are plenty of other tests to watch at a recognized show and insofar as if it's a 20 meter circle vs. a 20 meter square, well, I'd think that people would be a little bit more compassionate since we've all had to start somewhere. But I guess a lot of people seem to forget that.

WOW ain't that the truth...

Personally I think that there are people out there who enjoy lower level riding and if they would like to do a freestyle at training level they should be able to. Dressage should be open for everyone not just the people who do higher level freestyles.

[redpony]

Just reading the last post, made it even clearer why the LL's need support. There's more of us! And we are the volunteers, when we can't afford to ride or our one horse is laid up. Without us, there would be a problem staffing shows. Didn't someone mention in an previous thread what the statistics are regarding the number of riders in each level? If I recall correctly and every show I've been too, supports this, the LL's are filled and the upper level rides that we all love to watch are undersubscribed. What a strange world the horse show venue is? Any other business model seems to encourage and support the "customer" at the entry level. It's how they grow and survive. I fear for our future if we become so elitest that we show distain for the lower levels.

[CatOnLap]

All those lower level rides help support the show financially. Otherwise, there would be no show. Any sport is like that-- very few are at the top level.

If we did NOT have waitlists of 20 riders, most of whom are riding above first level, I could agree with you. However, the current show committee are all into "first come first serve" as determined by postmark and many of us have actually given up paying our dues because our post boxes aren't as fast as others. I entered 5 shows the last year I was trying to show and got accepted to one. My entries were all mailed the day that entries opened, yet arrived a few days later than the people who did get in. And don't tell me to run my own shows. I did that, I've paid my dues, as an executive, multiple times show chair and regional director over 15 years. One cannot run a show and also show in it. A little payback for all my volunteer hours would be nice.

There needs to be a balance, at least in our region. Allow the higher level tests first serve, and fit in as many lower level tests as will follow. The FEI levels pay much higher entry fees, so they are actually a bigger money maker for the shows than all those baby tests.

[freestyle2music]

I think that you have to draw a line between entertainment and dressage. We also have freestyles to music starting at B(eginners) level, but they are only for entertainment and mostly judge by the townmajor and his wife.

When it comes down to the serious work we start at Z-level (level 3 in the USA). For these FTM competitions we even have special educated FTM-judges. To the experienced dressage eyes these Z-level FTM's are much nicer to watch as the "around the BBQ" rides, but not everyone is educated in dressage :no:.


Theo

[FriesianX]

Absolutely they should be allowed! We need to support the lower level riders - dressage already has a rep as being for the rich and privileged, the more we can do to open it up to everyone, the better!

Are lower level freestyles boring? Not to those who are competing in them - let's face it, if you aren't personally invested in a rider or horse, most dressage from Intro through 4th level isn't "exciting". And honestly, a mid-quality PSG test isn't all that exciting either :winkgrin: Dressage isn't about exciting, you want action, move to jumpers or team penning :D

Why not give the Training Level people something FUN to work on? By the way, I've judged at schooling shows where some of the USPC riders came to practice their lower level freestyles, and they were FUN! Not exciting, but cute, upbeat, entertaining. Music actually makes everything either much better or much worse - why not reward the riders who can make it much better?

Of course, I also vote for dropping some of the dress rules for freestyles -allow some color and some fun to match the music :yes:

[oldenmare]

Oh Oh Oh

Have I got a solution then for those who find LLs boring....

Let's run separate shows - one just for LLs and one for say 4th & above.

Let's see which one is better staffed, more profitable and has more spectators.....

[Dressage62]

There needs to be a balance, at least in our region. Allow the higher level tests first serve, and fit in as many lower level tests as will follow. The FEI levels pay much higher entry fees, so they are actually a bigger money maker for the shows than all those baby tests.


Where in the heck are you??
Here in Maryland, the lower levels (as far as I can tell) are what support the shows to make a profit (or at least break even)....our few FEI riders are very careful what shows they do, and definately go out of their way to avoid judges who consistently give them low scores.

[Dressage62]

Oh Oh Oh

Have I got a solution then for those who find LLs boring....

Let's run separate shows - one just for LLs and one for say 4th & above.

Let's see which one is better staffed, more profitable and has more spectators.....

As far as I know, Dressage at Devon is the only performance show that includes Fourth Level and above-- I'm sure they rely on a lot of sponsors.

[oldenmare]

Dressage62

Thanks - I think that helps make my point!

[FriesianX]

Oh Oh Oh

Have I got a solution then for those who find LLs boring....

Let's run separate shows - one just for LLs and one for say 4th & above.

Let's see which one is better staffed, more profitable and has more spectators.....


:lol: Even from one that hasn't shown Training Level for years, I can sure appreciate the reality of this comment! For those who are showing FEI and having problems getting into shows - easy enough solution, get your entries in earlier :winkgrin: And in highly show populated areas like CA (where I live), I can tell you the numbers are still with the Training and First level riders. They are what pay for the shows, pay for USDF, pay for our GMOs, and heck, they are most of the volunteers too!

We have a CDI every April - and it runs concurrently with a 4 day long USDF/USEF show. Why? To PAY for it of course!

At some point, we (the US Equestrian community) have to make a decision. Is dressage a sport for the few wealthy people on the top horses, or is it an equal opportunity discipline? If we narrow it down to the top riders only, then we better plan on only a few shows, probably mostly at LAEC, Pebble Beach, Devon, and Wellington. The wealthy will be able to haul their horses all over. The rest of us can watch it on the internet. Personally, I like the fact that it appeals to a broad range of people, of different skills and backgrounds, and can be done with a wide range of horses. If we decide to turn off the majority, they WILL go elsewhere - I hear reining is a blast :lol:

[Dressage62]

[QUOTE=FriesianX;3534376]:lol: At some point, we (the US Equestrian community) have to make a decision. Is dressage a sport for the few wealthy people on the top horses, or is it an equal opportunity discipline? If we narrow it down to the top riders only, then we better plan on only a few shows, probably mostly at LAEC, Pebble Beach, Devon, and Wellington. [QUOTE]

I think it's headed that way.
I know at a lot of horse trials, if they offer Beginner Novice, it works out well for a lot of trainers who show at the higher level the first day, then the second day of the horse trial they can coach all their BN riders, who make it possible for the trainer to support themselves in the sport.

[mp]

Where in the heck are you??
Here in Maryland, the lower levels (as far as I can tell) are what support the shows to make a profit (or at least break even)....our few FEI riders are very careful what shows they do, and definately go out of their way to avoid judges who consistently give them low scores.

Same here (in the midwest).

Should Training Level Freestyles Be Allowed?

No. Wait, make that ... Hell, no.

Talk about boring. And I'm a TL rider, so you can't accuse me of snobbery.

[Dressage62]

Dressage62

Thanks - I think that helps make my point!

Glad I could help!

[magickmeadow]

IMO the success of any sport is sustaining and encouraging new participants. If that goal is met by offering freestyle classes for lower level dressage riders/horses then so be it. I have a 4th level horse right now but that doesn't mean that I can't learn something from watching a TL horse/rider pair. I will admit that I pick and choose the tests that I watch and more often than not I watch the mid to higher level classes. That is because I am scoping out my potential competitors and trying to hone my skills by watching those with more talented horses and superior riding skills to my own. Horses as a whole and dressage in particular is often viewed as an elitest activity. Take a close look at some of the other equine disciplines and you will find some of them are taking advantage of the newbie or the novice. The cutting horse industry is supported by huge money as well as a great number of professional trainers who are entertaining to watch. It is exciting to watch one of those horses, belly to the ground, eyeball to eyeball against a cow, push their athletic ability to the limit. However, it is just as enjoyable to watch the backyard cutting gelding take Dad, Mom and Kid(s) out for a run. There is a lot of emphasis placed on the family and that level of competition. After all, Trainers, where does your next student come from? Breeders, where does your next sale come from? The list goes on..... Perhaps Dressage could learn from other sports and instead of saying how boring or time consuming the lower levels are, they could embrace the lower levels as the way to keep our sport viable and interesting to the masses and ensure dressage's continued success.

[Anselcat]

The FEI levels pay much higher entry fees, so they are actually a bigger money maker for the shows than all those baby tests.

Have you done a cost comparision that accounts for the per-minute and per-judge costs, compared to the entry fee?

[oldenmare]

Whether or not someone finds TL or LL freestyles boring is not really the point, imo.

The point is "will TL Freestyles bring in rides"?

I'm betting yes - and if I were the show mgmt, I'd be more than happy to offer TL Freestyles at shows.

And if you do find them boring - the beauty of being in a free country is that you aren't forced to watch.... but then, wouldn't that take away the ability to complain about it away????

[CatOnLap]

"get your entries in earlier" the entries are not accepted if they are sent before the day the entries open as judged by postmark. There is no way to get them in "earlier" than the day that entries open.
Let's run separate shows - one just for LLs and one for say 4th & above You are rather badly missing my point about balance in the shows and the need for lower levels to be supported. I am happy to have a fair proportion of lower level tests at any show. And reserve say, 20% of the test spots for people at third and above so the upper riders have a chance to get a spot. Adding freestyles to TL, would just fill up the show with more TL, as witnessed by the show I attended on the weekend. There were more first and second level freestyles shown than the total of all the third level and above tests. There were at least 4 riders above that level who were on a waitlist to get into the show because their entries arrived a few hours after all the TL/WT entries.

Someone asked where I am? I live in western Canada. I live about 60 km from the Paraolympic grade II Dressage Gold medalist, and not far from 1/4 of our current olympic dressage team. It is hardly the boonies for dressage.

If we want to grow our sport to something like what happens in Europe, where the dressage shows attract as many spectators as the hockey games do here, we'd need to make the content of the show a little more interesting. There were 3 non-involved spectators at the weekend show I was just at. Me, my SIL and the mother of a kid...The little hunter show, which is exciting to watch, was attracting more than two dozen non involved spectators on the same day.

TL and walk trot are already dominating the entire show day. While I can learn something from watching TL ad nauseum, I can learn far more from watching the same number of upper levels tests.

[oldenmare]

Cat

And you are missing my point. The shows here have VERY few upper level rides - not due to filling by LL - most of the shows have a hard time getting enough entries to break even, much less make a profit. But that's not the point, either.

And regardless - if you want to put "caps" on entries by level - does it matter what the class is (freestyle vs standard TL test) if you're only going to allow x% of that level anyway???

The point: IF people want to ride a TL freestyle - seriously - where's the harm??? Why does it matter to you if someone were to ride TL-F VS TL-4??? Honestly.

Its all fine and well to talk about the sport in Europe vs here, but the cultures are too different and here it will never have the appeal of Monday Night Football or Nascar. Or even horse racing (well, the Triple Crown series, at least).

So let's try to make it as appealing as possible to those who actually do want to play - even if they can't play at your level...

[Dixon]

Yes, riding to music will probably make any level performance more appealing to a wider audience. The rodeo circuits have long understood this, and Grand Prix jumping has added musical soundtracks in recent years. But let's not kid ourselves that in training level dressage it will be any different than blasting rock and roll each time a rodeo contestant comes thundering out of the gate on a twisting bull, or more recently, a Grand Prix jumper begins her round or celebrates a clear round. The music is to get the AUDIENCE riled up and excited about the performance, and doesn't demonstrate some kind of greater artistic, choreographic, or riding ability by the rider. Any of us can ride to our favorite song, and it may well make the ride a little more inspiring or relaxing. But please don't ask judges to grade training level performances according to how well choreographed to music they are. At that level the judges really need to be assessing the building blocks of forwardness, connection, acceptance of the aids, clean transitions, etc. -- not how well the ride was dee-jayed.

[class]

sure. let's include into-level freestyles also. we also need in hand freestyles, for the people who can't even ride at all.

[atlatl]

sure. let's include into-level freestyles also. we also need in hand freestyles, for the people who can't even ride at all.

I competed once at an open show in a class called "performance horse at halter". I was quite surprised at being asked to "trot your horses please" for a circuit of the arena in both directions!!! Not something I, nor anyone else, was expecting....

[see u at x]

I honestly had no idea that so many people were bitter towards those who ride at training or intro level. So, is the general assumption that just because someone rides at intro that they're just not a good rider at all?

[Lambie Boat]

not just no but HELL TO THE NO!!!!!


Mine is the opinion of a person who scribes a great deal and hears what judges really think about low level freestyles. I can honestly say I've scribed for every judge out there and it's official. (yes, I know someone will come on and deny it, but I scribed for you too)

Mission Impossible? Pirates of the Caribbean? check!

look! my horse can leg yield! and again! and again! look! I think my horse invented this! and again! check!

zzzzzzzzz puh-lease! zzzzz. give the judge a break!!!

[poltroon]

I don't really care... but I don't see how you can make any kind of effective freestyle using only Training level movements. If some people want to offer them, and some people want to do them, who am I to say no?

[Ibex]

No.
Because I'd rather be in my kitchen watching the walls dry.
And because at our oversubscribed shows, people riding the FEI levels sometimes don't get in because of the plethora of TL tests.

Agreed.

If they are going to do them, make it something fun, like the quadrille class one of the local shows has. Costumes anyone?

[canticle]

not just no but HELL TO THE NO!!!!!


Mine is the opinion of a person who scribes a great deal and hears what judges really think about low level freestyles. I can honestly say I've scribed for every judge out there and it's official. (yes, I know someone will come on and deny it, but I scribed for you too)

Mission Impossible? Pirates of the Caribbean? check!

look! my horse can leg yield! and again! and again! look! I think my horse invented this! and again! check!

zzzzzzzzz puh-lease! zzzzz. give the judge a break!!!
Why have freestyles at all then? It's only marginally more interesting at higher levels. :lol:

[PaulaM]

the local dressage association has a rule that in order to qualify for a championship, you must do a freestyle, and yes, it does include Training Level. I personally think this is a waste of valuable judging time. And yes, I am a training level rider.

[Anselcat]

You are rather badly missing my point about balance in the shows and the need for lower levels to be supported. I am happy to have a fair proportion of lower level tests at any show. And reserve say, 20% of the test spots for people at third and above so the upper riders have a chance to get a spot.

You say the upper level riders don't "have a chance" to get a spot, but every entry has the same chance to get in -- unless somehow the majority of upper level riders live in areas with slow postal service? Using a 'first-come' system, the same percentage of upper and lower level riders would not get in.

I actually wouldn't have a problem if a show set aside a certain number of rides for upper levels, as long as they were up front about it. Their choice.

[oldenmare]

Hhhhmmm - not only "no" but "hell no" responses.

Well, just three things and then I'm moving on...

1. I've scribed for a tremendous number of judges - including many S, the occasional O and tons of Rs - not heard a complaint I can remember concerning people doing LL freestyles - other than encouraging criticism (as in any dressage test) and I tend to scribe for all the area championship shows... not too mention personally know quite a number of judges (who fortunately don't have such hang-ups and encourage the extension of the sport)

2. In viewing some of the responses here, I am SO very glad that I didn't bother to join USDF/USEF this year as a participating member as my greenie (solid FEI potential) is only at TL right now as just too **** young. So, at least my money is supporting such naysayers in their showing attempts. Petty, true, but I tend to take amusement where I can find it - sadly lacking in many areas but such is life.

3. I find it so amusing that many assume those in favor of this are only TL riders... oh, well, you know what is said about assumptions!!!

Say Good night Gracie!

[J-Lu]

Oldenmare, please don't think the responses here are indicitive of the sport as a whole.

It all depends on your perspective, and perspectives vary alot.

Sure, some judges complain...and yet these same judges forget that they can either decline the job or find another job. Judges are paid to do a job and are not priviledged to judge the levels they think are most fun unless they are a "C" judge or higher (they cost too much to judge lower levels). If the judges are so bored, they need a new job. It's that simple. The scribes and riders aren't there to entertain the judges, the judges are there to serve their clients:THE RIDERS. The ones who complain about the job look silly to most scribes and show management. ANd often they aren't invited back. Those judges can duke it out for the spots at shows like Devon. Many judges understand that the lower levels support the sport and the show...because they have clients and students, too.

Show management that can run multiple rings usually do so. Show management also knows that they can hire a R judge much cheaper than an S judge, and with the same entry fees, they can make money off of training level rides. Theo, I'm not sure that you understand the economics of the dressage industry by your comments. At least in America, our lower level riders are judged by certified judges, not town mayors. I guess this is one instance where we should be thankful to be riding dressage in America, not Holland, eh?

Few shows are so overbooked that they can't take on additional classes. If they are, then they wouldn't want to add TL freestyle. (But those shows don't favor upper level riders, either - first come first serve by postmark). But if they are underbooked, adding a TL freestyle could help support the show.

The people who are so bored by TL freestyles don't have to watch. It's really simple!!

J.

[NancyA]

I'm in favor of encouraging that group of FUTURE dressage stars -- our USPC kids (and many adult beginners) love the concept of dressage when it includes the potential of a freestyle, and you can bet they have a FAR greater appreciation for the nuances of rhythm, impulsion and consistency after they've worked one up and ridden it for a judge! One of my daughter's favorite things when listening to a good piece of music is to think for which horse it would perfect as a freestyle.

When you've got a big, complicated show, maybe that's not the one for the time investment in BBF (baby beginner freestyle) time, but where possible, why not?

[grayarabpony]

I have been trying to imagine a freestyle at training level, and I just can't. :lol: It'd be like riding with the radio on.

[FriesianX]

What J-Lu said! I can't believe that people would come out with such negativity toward T-L/LL riders! They are they base of support for dressage. I also scribe a LOT - and have only heard one judge complain in all my years of scribing. On the other hand, I've heard SEVERAL judges comment about encouraging LL riders and keeping them interested in dressage.

As for how a TL freestyle would look - not a whole lot different than a 1st level but without the LY and lengthenings - lots of flowing lines, trot/canter trans, sure it wouldn't be as exciting as GP, but you don't have to watch! How many of you find a crowd watching your 4th level rides? Around here, at the bigger shows, the only classes that draw an audience (beyond friends and family) are usually the FEI rides. And you can't fill up a 3 day multi-ring show (or even one day) with those!

Maybe, for those shows who are over-subscribed, it would be worth putting an "FEI Ride Preference" rule in place - I'm sure they still won't be filled up by FEI rides. And I doubt they will make more on the FEI rides - generally, those rides take about 40% to 50% more judging time (assuming one judge).

Every time I show, I thank goodness there are so many Training and First level riders and volunteers making the show possible, and paying their memberships to keep USDF and USEF afloat. How many FEI riders do you even see volunteering at shows?

[appychik]

Sheesh. We just performed a demo at a local horse fest, educating the local "rural" folk about dressage. Most of the people there were rodeo people (big rodeo finals) and other western folk. My barn was asked to volunteer at it and we were given an hour block. We ended up putting together two Pas de Deuxs (don't kill me if I spelt that wrong) and one Quadrille. Also had a rider do a Prix Caprilli (spelling?) test. It was a lot of fun. We did put it to music, but didn't have HOURS to spend on getting the music and gaits lined up. Music actually matched nearly perfectly, had my horse decided to not be an idiot. Whatever.

But the four of us riders are all Training/First Level riders. I'm schooling more second level things but I'm showing First. This was my first year... I was pretty pumped. But reading all the negative comments about LL riders is depressing, glad I don't waste the money and do rated stuff, I'd sure hate to bore the judges and god forbid, the scribes!

Anyways, our three "acts" were a blast. Had lots of fun coordinating everything. I think it would be hard to do a training level freestyle because you can't incorporate things like leg-yields, should-fores, lengthenings, etc. But that's not to say they are boring, you'd have to get creative.

We had fun doing our Pas de Deux and Quadrille. Wish we would have had more time to prep, but well a couple months isn't along time when 3/4 of your quadrille group (and your other half to the PdD) is/are too young to drive :eek: :D. Needless to say, we only practiced the Quadrille about 4 times before tackling the demo... got a few more practices in with the PdD.

[twofatponies]

No!!! It's bad enough to have intro classes.
If you think a first level freestyle is moderately boring, just think how much more boring a training level freestyle would be.

Is that a 20 meter circle or an 20 meter square to music?
What was that working trot or jog?

My thoughts exactly. :P

[Sdhaurmsmom]

Oh Oh Oh

Have I got a solution then for those who find LLs boring....

Let's run separate shows - one just for LLs and one for say 4th & above.

Let's see which one is better staffed, more profitable and has more spectators.....

Actually - let's see which ones are actually able to afford to hire judges, because they have enough entries!

The TL and 1st level riders under-write the show costs for all the other competitors...all eight of them, lol...at most shows around here, anyway.

Sure am sick of the attitude. I think separating the lower levels and upper levels would be a wake up call....say, from intro to 2nd level would be one division, and 3rd and up would be the other. Then let the upper level riders scramble for funds, volunteers, and entries.

Oh!
and they can also scramble for their own upper-level volunteers to run their shows. Good luck!

[Sandy M]

And in all forms of "shows", as the song says:

"If there's no audience, there ain't no show"




Get real! Except at the very highest levels, like CDIs, the only "audience" at most dressage shows - even 3*** ones - is the exhibitors and their trainers/family/friends.

I don't know what area it must be where "too many" training level rides are depriving PSG people from their chance to show, but around here, a busy dressage area where a fair number of 3rd level and above riders show - there wouldn't BE any shows if it weren't for the large numbers of training/1st level riders that support them.

And I've seen some very cute training level free styles, one in particular done by a junior rider on her POA to the theme from the Pink Panther. She won a junior championship with it. Lordy, what a bunch of snobs! How superior to dismiss the lower level rides. I'd rather watch a nice, correcty training level freestyle than a "spank and crank" FEI level test.

[rabicon]

Wow, some of you guys must have started a psg right *ROLLEYES* Give me a break, I am the one that has been in intro for the past 6 months trying to develop my seat correctly and to develop my horse correctly. We have just started TL test. We got a 71 at our last dressage show in intro and I was ecstatic, good thing you party poopers weren't there. What do you suggest I do with my horse then??? Should I not have him out there until he is trained for 4th level. What if he can't make it to 4th level?? I pay alot of money at these shows to be there and I support these shows with that money, so do all the other TL riders. Heck the way some of you talk we should all start going to schooling shows only and see how long your precious shows last with only upper level riders.:mad:


OH and btw my circles are right on everytime. Why? Because I took the time in intro to develop the circle and know exactly how to ride it. Even the bend. I even get comments on how accurate our test are and how nice the circles are.

[TheHunterKid90]

Nopee. No way. That's like saying at a hunter show "okay, the beginner hunter division can have a hunter classic and you all get to wear your shads and stuff." now I know that TL rider's would not wear a shad in a freestyle but it's the same thing. There has to be something that is reserved for the riders that manage to get "up there" and there has to be some sort of reward. Allow the upper level riders to be a little unique and feel special...you are just watering it down if you allow it at ALL levels. Freestyles at TL are not a necessary part of training in order to bring a horse up through the levels.
Not to mention that...what can you really do at TL with a free style? alot of 20m circles and a few million leg yields? yeah, no.

[rabicon]

What about a child or adult for that matter that will probably never ride higher than 2nd level (because of money or not the right horses etc...) This person shouldn't be able to do freestyles if they want. Oh BOOOHOOO the poor upper level riders, we can't hurt their feelings by making them not feel special because TL has freestlyes. :eek: Do you really think Anky or Stephen is sitting there thinking about how the TL freestlyes is going to take their glory away *rolleyes* I highly doubt it.

[mp]

Wow, some of you guys must have started a psg right *ROLLEYES* Give me a break, I am the one that has been in intro for the past 6 months trying to develop my seat correctly and to develop my horse correctly. We have just started TL test.

No, you're not the only one. I rode Intro last year, ride TL now, probably won't make it to 1st for another few years (if ever). I'm not a snob, but I would not find TL freestyles very interesting to ride or to watch. Sorry.

Quadrille or Pas de Deux or costume would be fun. But a solitary rider (in scintillating back and white) trotting and cantering circles, changing directions, doing a free walk, etc etc etc, to music just doesn't ring the bell for me.

But ... if you want to watch or ride TL freestyles, tell your GMO about it and offer to sponsor the class.

Done.

[TheHunterKid90]

What about a child or adult for that matter that will probably never ride higher than 2nd level (because of money or not the right horses etc...) This person shouldn't be able to do freestyles if they want.


Life's not fair. If is were up to me I'd be competing at Prelim right now and have a barn full of beautiful young prospects to take out into the eventing world. That's what makes riding special....because not everyone can attain the highest goal. It's what makes it fun. If it was all handed to you how fun would that be? It's no different in the hunter world....there's no hunter classics or zone/regional finals for beginner/introductory classes...that's why there are different levels of competition.

[rabicon]

Riding a tl freestyle is far from the highest level. Why can't you just let the rider have fun with it. Every show I go to there are not alot of people watching sorry, just the family and friends of riders. Its not like people from all over come to watch intro-psg dressage and its not like people from all over come to A circuit hunter shows :no: It's just not there so why can't people ride a tl freestyle if the show allows, who cares, its not like anyone is there really watching anyways. I never said it wouldn't be boring but don't watch it then. JMO

[TheHunterKid90]

Riding a tl freestyle is far from the highest level. Why can't you just let the rider have fun with it. Every show I go to there are not alot of people watching sorry, just the family and friends of riders. Its not like people from all over come to watch intro-psg dressage and its not like people from all over come to A circuit hunter shows :no: It's just not there so why can't people ride a tl freestyle if the show allows, who cares, its not like anyone is there really watching anyways. I never said it wouldn't be boring but don't watch it then. JMO



so we're now going to allow 30 Training Level Freestyle Horses/Riders and compete at a show. Okay, wonderful, sounds great, I'll be sure to send an entry in there bc I would really love to have some intro freestyle classes littering up the schedule. And just so you know....classics at hunter shows start at FAR from the highest level (they start in the Child/Adult 3' Hunters) but at least not anyone can just decide to do one. Training is still an introcuctory to dressage...The 3' hunters are not.
This is MY Opinion.
And so, just so everyone knows...I am an eventer.....my horse competes at Training Level which is the equivilant of like...Training Test 4 or First Test 1...so I'm not being snobbish towards "lower level riders".

[rabicon]

Why do you keep talking about hunters??? Hunter shows are far from dressage shows. But I'll go there. Your talking about classics. Well scratch that. Think of it this way. In the hunters they should get rid of xrails division and pre greens, because well they are just boring to watch duhhh. Oh and why can't just anyone do a classic???? :confused: There is no reason I can't take my horse to the fall classic in ATL and do lets see ummmmm pregreens or adult ammie, or adult ammie jumper or regular working hunter or heck I could even take my daughters pony and do the large pony divisions. I could even enter the grand prix if I had the money to ;) I know I wouldn't win because my horse is not a hunter nor a level 7 jumper but I could do it if I want to. So why can't I just decide to do one???? Sure we'll have 30 TL freestyles littering up the show ground but why does the classics (or just hunter shows for that matter) have SOOOOOOO many classes. A/O, JR, EQ, pregreens, greens, working, level0-???? (depending on show) A/A etc....... Your analogy makes no since. Everyone has to start somewhere. I think the freestyle at TL is a good idea because it will help the newly started rider to keep a tempo, which is very very important in dressage. Also dressage has ride times unlike hunters so if there are 30 TL freestlye riders it shouldn't bother you or your time, you should saddle up and be ready at a time that you KNOW your going in. Unlike hunters when you have no idea when and have to keep checking the ring and worring about it.

[FriesianX]

Do you really think you'd see 30 TL freestyles? Very seldom do I see more than 2 or 3 FIRST level freestyles - for that matter - in many shows, no one shows FS! Would it really kill everyone if 3 or 4 people showed a TL freestyle at some of the shows? For some people, TL is the furthest they are going - many people have bad backs or other issues that result in even FIRST level being a stretch. They are still paying fees, still supporting the shows and the GMOs, why shouldn't they have something fun to work on? Would it be scintillating entertainment? Nahhhh, but it sure would be fun to see someone come out of the ring with a big smile on their face because they finally got to do a freestyle! And I'm one of those who thinks we should loosen up the dress code on freestyles anyway. Back in the good ol' days, we were allowed to do some fun stuff with dress and music.

By the way, if you want to compare it to Hunters... What about the fact that Jumpers don't even recognize anything until you can do 3 feet (and that is baby jump size)? See - you can NOT compare apples to oranges (aka dressage freestyles to hunter classics) without including all the other fruits in the basket (eventing, jumpers, etc). But seriously, the Training Level people aren't asking to put on shads and top hats, they are just asking for the same creative outlet that a first level rider has, to be able to choreograph a ride to music and be judged on it. They pay the same entry fees as a 4th level rider, they pay the same annual dues to USEF and USDF, they pay the same trainers, their collectives are the same, they are scored on the same scale as the rest of us, why not a freestyle?

Back to my original comment/question - are we trying to make dressage a sport for only the wealthy and privileged, or do we want it to grow and be popular? Personally, I like the fact that it is popular, that we don't have to travel half way across the country to show, that we can show on our $20k horses, even though SOME people have $200k horses in the same classes. I like the fact that dressage is for every horse and every rider, and there are building blocks/stepping stones to show progress, but there is a place for those who don't want to fight their way to the top. Do we want to look more like the Euro model, where only the trainers and elite ammies can show? I hope not...

[canticle]

Nopee. No way. That's like saying at a hunter show "okay, the beginner hunter division can have a hunter classic and you all get to wear your shads and stuff." now I know that TL rider's would not wear a shad in a freestyle but it's the same thing. There has to be something that is reserved for the riders that manage to get "up there" and there has to be some sort of reward. Allow the upper level riders to be a little unique and feel special...you are just watering it down if you allow it at ALL levels. Freestyles at TL are not a necessary part of training in order to bring a horse up through the levels.
Not to mention that...what can you really do at TL with a free style? alot of 20m circles and a few million leg yields? yeah, no.
You do have one point: Freestyles are not a necessary part of training. So that begs the question, why have them at all? How do they fit into dressage?

One should note that freestyles have never been limited to the upper levels. So what is the harm in extending them to TL?

[Mike Matson]

90% of the people who attend my "Ride to Music" clinics will never do a freestyle and are lower level riders. But when the music is found that perfectly "fits" the horse at each gait, every auditor in the arena instantly sees a "dancing" horse. Everyone also sees riders who "feel" that music, start riding to it, and the relaxed response of the horses to that feel. It is a transformation. I see it almost every time and get that feedback from riders, trainers, and auditors.

Based on this experience at the clinics, I can guarantee with music that "fits" the horse at all three gaits, a Training Level freestyle would be very enjoyable to watch and you would see a "dancing" horse.

And lastly, correctly selected music can help a Training Level rider obtain regularity in the gaits as the rider adjusts to the beat in the music, i.e., it is a training tool. And that regularity, plus relaxation, are two things you want to see in a Training Level test.

[hum]

Anyone should be allowed to do a freestyle.
However, no one should be forced to watch them perform.

[Blkarab]

If we did NOT have waitlists of 20 riders, most of whom are riding above first level, I could agree with you. However, the current show committee are all into "first come first serve" as determined by postmark and many of us have actually given up paying our dues because our post boxes aren't as fast as others. I entered 5 shows the last year I was trying to show and got accepted to one. My entries were all mailed the day that entries opened, yet arrived a few days later than the people who did get in. And don't tell me to run my own shows. I did that, I've paid my dues, as an executive, multiple times show chair and regional director over 15 years. One cannot run a show and also show in it. A little payback for all my volunteer hours would be nice.

There needs to be a balance, at least in our region. Allow the higher level tests first serve, and fit in as many lower level tests as will follow. The FEI levels pay much higher entry fees, so they are actually a bigger money maker for the shows than all those baby tests.

Why don't you limit the number of riders per level. For example, allow 8-10 intro and TL, 6 first, etc... Make it a number that allows enough competition in each class, and spaces the day out too. I wish our region had your problem. We are having difficulty filling our shows. What a nice problem to have.

The LL riders are the ones that make up the majority. It's a shame that more upper level riders are not out there showing so that those of us who are in the lower levels can watch and enjoy their progress, and possibly learn something.

Of the flip-side, we have an upper level rider in our region who has performed the same freestyle for the last 3 years (same music too). Do I watch her freestyle any longer? No. Because I can't get the darn music out of my head and frankly, I'm bored with her performance.

[amastrike]

I honestly had no idea that so many people were bitter towards those who ride at training or intro level. So, is the general assumption that just because someone rides at intro that they're just not a good rider at all?

Seriously. Heaven forbid anyone be, you know, learning how to do all this. If you aren't good enough to ride at the top levels and entertain people, then you aren't good enough to ride. Yeesh. If you think TL is boring to watch, then don't watch it. If you think it's boring to ride, then don't ride it. Not too hard. Let people have fun with what they're doing, and maybe they'll be a little more inclined to go on to be an upper-level rider.