"FEI Rider" statistics

[canyonoak]

Surfing the web, on FEI, discovered that one can download the riders per discipline for each and every country...this includes Young Riders,etc. Here are the numbers for FEI Dressage:


Germany 295

Netherlands 144

Denmark 54

USA 483



Somehow, I am not surprised that the U.S. has umpteen riders registered with the FEI and yet can barely pull together a single team.

[pluvinel]

Lest we forget, the USEF High Performance Division already HAS a qualifying process in place.....

[Caroline Weber]

Just because they "compete" at FEI doesn't mean they can do it well - you've attended enough shows to have seen that.

My guess is that the statistics would be different if they looked at the number of riders competing at FEI who have scores averaging above "X" (say, 65) percent.

[pluvinel]

Actually, upon reflection, it is not the "absolute" number of riders, but the number of riders "normalized" to some denominator.

Eg., There are 483 FEI riders out of what????

483 out of the the entire population in the US?

483 out of the total number of people in horse sports in the US?

483 out of the the total number of USDF members?

483 out of the total number of people claiming USEF "dressage" as their discipline?

In this case, the denominator is a very important number.

483 out of the the entire population in the US might be an interesting statistic since the population figures are easily determined.

Denmark and the Netherlands are probably the size of Rhode Island, Connecticut or Delaware.

Germany might be the size of Indiana or Ohio....now 483 FEI riders in Ohio might be interesting to find.

[siegi b.]

... and to play the devil's advocate.... isn't that an argument FOR qualification at the different levels??? :-)

[ShotenStar]

... and to play the devil's advocate.... isn't that an argument FOR qualification at the different levels??? :-)

Depends on what your goal is:

-lots of riders enjoying themselves and learning to ride horses correctly
-lots of riders with the skills to qualify for the Olympic team
-lots of riders with the skills to compete in a CDI
-lots of riders willing to spend the money and do the FEI paperwork for themselves and their horses

The goal matters .....

*star*

[Carol O]

Somehow, I am not surprised that the U.S. has umpteen riders registered with the FEI and yet can barely pull together a single team.
Yes, especially when our team is 33% German!

[canyonoak]

The term "FEI rider" in Europe obviously means someone who is good enough to be allowed to ride in FEI classes/shows.

The term "FEI rider" in the U.S. belongs to anyone who fills out the paperwork.

Must also add, at same spot on the website, it is possible to pull down a list of riders BY NAME so, yes you can see all 54 Danes or 483 Americans, etc.

The performance standards proposal would grandfather in ALL these U.S. riders, so I hardly see how the proposal is going to improve dressage at ANY level of proficiency.

The most important group for bettering dressage here is the group of POTENTIAL riders--and a good number of them will simply turn to other pursuits, equine or not. That has always been the case, because horse sport in this country is a hobby-sport rather than the business model it is in Europe.
And the proposal, with its elitism and rules, along with the expenses, will just turn off some percentage of would-be riders.

The next important group for bettering dressage is all of us--because we PAY THE MONEY so that the sport can exist. And the proposal is going to ensure that at least some money if not a truly sizable chunk of it no longer is spent on the sport, directly or indirectly.
Also not a great way to improve the sport.

Out of 54 FEI riders, the Danes managed to qualify enough riders indirectly to snag a bronze medal. (The Danes failed to qualify directly, but enough of their riders ranked on the FEI list that they were able to form a composite team).

Of course, and to be fair, North America lacks the enormous numbers of CDIs which are required for the points necessary to achieve proficiency in the sport.

Yah, we have lots of riders, not a lot of shows.

And, just to rub it in, the Medien Cup, the new championship series to find the best young GP horses...13 euros to pre-enter, another 20 euros if you decide to really start.

Yes, that's 33 euros to enter, to win enormous prizes, prestige, sponsor attention,etc etc. And that is a fairly typical entry fee.

Just compare that to ANY entry fee at ANY North American CDI.

here is the link to the FEI rider lists:

http://registration.horsesport.org/lists/riders.htm

[Sabine]

Welll Oakie- didn't you get the memo that the smart riders are moving to Europe...!!! It is a somewhat 'beginning' trend and I am sure Steffen and Guenther won't be thrilled...to be back in the cold, tough climate...but that's where the action is and will be for the next umpteen years- considering our financial debacle around here....(all tongue in cheek of course...LOL!);)

[freestyle2music]

To become an FEI rider in the Netherlands it takes many very good rides.

From B-L1-L2-M1-M2-Z1-Z2-ZZl-ZZZ-and then the FEI Classes.

In every class you have to score many competition points to be able to go to the next level. For a starting rider it may take 5-6 years to become an FEI rider. But when you have worked yourself through all these classes you have:
A. a good horse and B. you are a good rider.

IMHO it has much to do with quality and not so much with quantity. As stated hundred times before we have good trainers on almost every corner of the street. And all these trainers train a lot of riders. The toptrainers I know in the USA just train a few riders or none at all. We have trainers like Coby, Marlies and Marrigje van Baalen who mainly focus on pony, junior and youngriders. And more and more we see these youngsters bubbling to the surface of top FEI-riders.

To cut a long story short I trully believe that the infra-structure in the USA is the main problem, not the riders and not the horses.

Theo

[CatOnLap]

apples and oranges....again.

In Netherlands and Germany, you must qualify before you can ride at the FEI level in competition. And there are plenty of venues within an hour or two drive where you can qualify any weekend there.

In the USA, there is no qualification requirement, so any dick who's got on a trained horse and pulled a 51% at PSG can call themselves an FEI rider...and there are a number of judges here who've done exactly that- ridden 3 PSG tests in their whole life on someone else's schoolmaster so they could get their judging card. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that, but those people are a far cry from what a qualified european FEI rider can do.

I think the idea of bringing a qualification standard into the North America is misguided at this time however, and has nothing to do with the OP. It is just another example of some agency using mismatched statistics to prove nothing. For example, for the longest time, the Soviet Union had no suicides! NONE! that was amazing compared to the US, where people were offing themselves everyday. You'd think we'd have emptied the country by our own hand at that rate. However, there was a glitch in how the USSR measured suicide: that is, they didn't, they just reported the rate to the World Health Orgnaization as zero... Just as there is a glitch in how we measure FEI status... But that is not a reason to impose a qualifying standard here. It is simply as reason not to pay attention to faulty comparisons such as the one on that website.

[freestyle2music]

Why apples and oranges ???

These statistics show that the USA has more FEI riders than The Netherlands, Germany and Denmark together.

When you write that being a FEI-riders in the USA means nothing, it's time to start doing something about it, and I don't mean adding performance standards, but educating the riders who DO start in classes where they don't belong.



Theo

[SGray]

there are 483 people in the US that paid $15.00 to register for a FEI # -- that is all that this shows us -- not that they are (or ever will) ride in FEI events

perhaps that fifteen bucks is the justification that some of the bozos use to advertise that they are "FEI Riders"

[Coreene]

I agree with SGray, I am sure there are some who did it for bragging rights.

And Theo, telling an amateur who went out and spent big $$$ for a horse to ride a PSG and score 46% that she can't does not fly with a lot of people. Some think it is great and that there does need to be a qualification system, and some think that if you want to go out and make an ass of yourself, you should be allowed to.

[freestyle2music]

I agree with SGray, I am sure there are some who did it for bragging rights.

And Theo, telling an amateur who went out and spent big $$$ for a horse to ride a PSG and score 46% that she can't does not fly with a lot of people. Some think it is great and that there does need to be a qualification system, and some think that if you want to go out and make an ass of yourself, you should be allowed to.

That why I said "educate these people and their trainers", because making an ass of yourself will certainly not help you in the rest of your carreer.

[CatOnLap]

Theo, its not much of an embarassment if no one has seen you actually do the ride and you can still sneakily say to your cronies "I rode FEI" without mentioning the sub-zero score.

SGray, thanks for clarifying that stat- and silly me, I thought folks actually had to ride that level to make the claim. Where do I send my $15?

[SGray]

shall we start a "bogus FEI Rider" clique?

[Coreene]

Ah yes, but don't forget that making an ass of yourself is besides the point. You got to go out in a pretty hat and tails. That, for some, is all that matters. They got to "do FEI," they got to wear the top hat, and they know they never will get an outstanding score, but damn it all they will "ride FEI" no matter what.

And at the end of the day, I am of two minds about it. So long as it isn't hurting the horse, have at it. You only live once. But only if it isn't hurting the horse. If one's ego can stand getting a shitty score while wearing the gear, and it's not painful to their horse, at the end of the day who am I to say it is wrong? Would I do it, knowing that I would come home with a 46%? Absolutely not. Would I do it, knowing that I would come home with a 57%? Yeah, well, I just might.

Then again, it's been 25 years since I would fit into my tails, so I don't see it happening any time soon! :lol:

[Coreene]

Oh, and PS. Some trainers wouldn't be party to it. Some trainers don't care. Some trainers realize that the client is paying them big $$, that they made a big commission out of selling them their latest schoolmaster and that they will make a lot more out of selling them their next one. And then they turn a blind eye. Some forbid it, at which point Rich Ammy says "eff you" and goes somewhere else. ;)

[J-Lu]

Just because they "compete" at FEI doesn't mean they can do it well - you've attended enough shows to have seen that.

My guess is that the statistics would be different if they looked at the number of riders competing at FEI who have scores averaging above "X" (say, 65) percent.

So I'm curious why people here seem *convinced* that the US riders listed as FEI can't actually ride at PSG or higher. Lets not forget that many of ANY nation's riders don't manage a 65% at FEI, either (you can find the scores online).

Anyone who wonders why the US didn't field a guaranteed winning team with depth may not be familiar with how much it COSTS to buy an Olympic level horse and to campaign a pair to the Olympics - esp. if you are US based. Not many people have that kind of cash hanging around, much less people who want to throw that money at the sport of dressage instead of something like charity or a hospital or a cure for cancer or something.

Seeing as though the US has roughly 3.6 times the population of Germany, 18.2 times the population of The Netherlands, 55 times the population of Denmark, is it really any wonder why in *absolute numbers*, there are more FEI riders in America? ???? :confused: Population percentage wise, there are still more FEI riders in Germany, Holland and Denmark than in America. Does that make everyone feel better? :)

[CatOnLap]

Yes.

[carovet]

Just a note: there are many people who can say they "rode fei" that won't have registered with fei -- you only have to register with them if you are showing at a cdi......or qualifiers for the young horse world championships required it too....

you can show g.p. at a usef show without being registered

[SGray]

yes, which lends more weight to the question of WHY some of the people that registered, did -- looking at some of the names on there.....they are NOT showing in CDIs nor FEI Young Horse

registration is yearly - why pay the $15 if you are not showing?

[Coreene]

Just a note: there are many people who can say they "rode fei" that won't have registered with fei -- you only have to register with them if you are showing at a cdi......or qualifiers for the young horse world championships required it too....

you can show g.p. at a usef show without being registeredAbsolutely. But doesn't have nearly the same bling.

[slc2]

We may be forgetting that there are over 300 million people in the USA, 80 million in Germany, and 5 million in Denmark. That might help account for some of the difference in number of FEI riders in the various countries.

Germany 295 (80 mil)

Netherlands 144

Denmark 54 (5 mil)

USA 483 (305 mil) - we have ~2x more FEI riders, but we have almost 4 times more people

the best way to compare them for ah...'quality' is to compare scores.


:lol:

[siegi b.]

Quote by J-Lu ...... "Anyone who wonders why the US didn't field a guaranteed winning team with depth may not be familiar with how much it COSTS to buy an Olympic level horse and to campaign a pair to the Olympics - esp. if you are US based. Not many people have that kind of cash hanging around, much less people who want to throw that money at the sport of dressage instead of something like charity or a hospital or a cure for cancer or something."

See, J-Lu, that is part of the problem we have in this country.... hardly anybody wants to or can bring a horse up the levels anymore. We live in a fast food society and want things NOW! You go to Europe and certainly, the top riders will have good sponsors now, but they didn't start that way. They all earned their stripes and trained horses up the levels and then showed them successfully before they were in a position to pick and choose the top level horses. To me, that's the "depth" that's missing in this country and it's even starting with our young riders who, for the most part, try to get their parents to buy them horses that already know FEI movements.....

[quietann]

Wandering OT here...

I was looking at the NEDA website the other day and was shocked at how few *recognized* dressage competitions there are, compared to schooling shows (each weekend during the season, there are at least 5 or 6!) And this is in New England which is full of dressage riders... no wonder it's hard to compete at higher levels.

I keep reading, here and in the Eventing forum, how if you have not brought your horse up through the levels yourself, you aren't "really" qualified. I totally do not understand this... as a somewhat older rider, who's recently learned just how much harder the ground is at my age (broken bones, 5 weeks out of work), I have absolutely no desire to start with a greenie in Intro or Training level. It just makes no sense. That said, I am very patient and if it takes a couple of years to get *myself* to my horse's capability (probably 2nd level at most), I am not in any great hurry.

[siegi b.]

quietann - I don't think anybody would tell somebody like you to bring your horse up the levels in order to be called a "real" rider.... It's the folks that have Olympic ambitions that should have that depth of experience. There is a difference... :-)

[slc2]

People can usually ask to ride any test they want at a schooling show. I think people don't get to FEI for a host of reasons - not having enough recognized shows around I think is toward the bottom of a very long list of why they don't.

I think it's not really the elite young contenders who are asking mommy and daddy to buy them a trained horse, most of them know that they need to show they can train in order to have a successful career that will support their higher level goals.

They also know they'll do better at the top of the sport if they understand the work well enough to train it.

And I'm not sure buying a trained horse is actually bad. I don't know any young elite contenders who have not trained their own horse up thru the levels.

As for buying a trained horse, t's a very traditional and classical way to learn dressage...if oneself does it.

If one's neighbor does it, then it's snobbism, elitism, laziness, etc etc. :lol:

[J-Lu]

Quote by J-Lu ...... "Anyone who wonders why the US didn't field a guaranteed winning team with depth may not be familiar with how much it COSTS to buy an Olympic level horse and to campaign a pair to the Olympics - esp. if you are US based. Not many people have that kind of cash hanging around, much less people who want to throw that money at the sport of dressage instead of something like charity or a hospital or a cure for cancer or something."

See, J-Lu, that is part of the problem we have in this country.... hardly anybody wants to or can bring a horse up the levels anymore. We live in a fast food society and want things NOW! You go to Europe and certainly, the top riders will have good sponsors now, but they didn't start that way. They all earned their stripes and trained horses up the levels and then showed them successfully before they were in a position to pick and choose the top level horses. To me, that's the "depth" that's missing in this country and it's even starting with our young riders who, for the most part, try to get their parents to buy them horses that already know FEI movements.....

This is very true. Very very true. Thanks, Seigi.

In addition, there are some very good international-quality riders who are in need of a sponsor to sponsor their international-quality horse and them through the European training/ showing process and the US selection trial process in order to get to the olympics. Travel and showins isn't cheap. Even riders based in Europe and have a shot at making the team acknowledge that it costs a good $150-200K to campaign a horse for the US to the Olympics. For horses in the US, it costs about $200-250K for the whole process up to the Olympics. This is alot of money. How many American Sponsors are willing to shell this out, in addition to to the cost of the Olympic prospect to begin with? many uber-wealthy dressage enthusiasts already support their favorite riders. Many riders have to build groups to buy shares of a horse if they can't find one sponsor.

My point - it is EXPENSIVE. Most of our Olympic riders in the past many Olympics are over 35 years old and paid their dues as riders. they're good. None owned their horse - instead most horses are owned by uber-wealthy sponsors or syndicates. Thus, our team has always depended on wealthy sponsors. Jane Clarke had a way of swooping in with world class GP horses, but others relied on the trainers bringing them along. If campaigning a horse to the Olympics or WEG continues to be so expensive, it will continue to be dependent on Uber-deep pockets sponsoring decent riders on spectacular horses in order to formulate a team.

In this case, it will be no surprise that there are gaps in our international performance as older horses retire and newer horses develop. There's just not that many sponsored horse/rider combos who are optimally developed.