To Hell and Back

[Carol O]

Whoa....

www.triptohellandback.com

[TropicalStorm]

that's totally crazy and weird!

[dalpal]

You guys just found this. :eek: This came out a few weeks ago when he passed away.

Looks like a very well made documentary, I plan on getting it.

I scribed for Trip about 10 years ago...very nice, funny man.

[Carol O]

It took a lot of courage.

[slc2]

"that's totally crazy and weird"

not everyone thinks of it that way. i don't.

[kookicat]

I can't get the link to work- can someone tell me what it is?

[TropicalStorm]

"that's totally crazy and weird"

not everyone thinks of it that way. i don't.
I do think its crazy and weird-its something you would never really expect. I also thing its amazing that he came through it with courage and grace.

[HSS]

Yes, Like NOBODY had a CLUE that there was a screw loose.

Yeah, right.

[DogwoodValleyFarm]

Yes, Like NOBODY had a CLUE that there was a screw loose.

Yeah, right.


please explain what you mean by that.

[maggiecat]

Sigh.

Ok, I think some of you are unaware that Trip passed away... yes, this documetary is about the darker side of his life-- and he came back from it. It is a very brave documentary. However, the bigger picture is that he was a beautiful, gallant man, and while he had this struggle--and bad stuff--- he also somehow helped more people than I can imagine.

I didn't know him very well--I just posted updates as his illness was known-- but my wrists got tired, answering the many, many emails of love and affection. It was unbelieveable. And many were from total strangers, that he saw once at a horse show, and he said something to give them courage.

We should all hope, that when our time here is done, that we have helped other people. Trip was like that old Apple Computer ad--it showed a close-up of the Dalai Lama's face, and the quote was, "my religion is kindness".

Thus my big sigh. If you just stumbled on the documentary, please handle with care--or with kindness.
To read many COTH posts of memories about Trip and also comments on the documentary:
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=163208&highlight=Trip+harting

Thanks

Mary

[merrygoround]

Trip was well liked in the horse world, it is sad that having gone it all together, he had to leave so soon.

[DogwoodValleyFarm]

We had Trip judge our show in May this year. I thoroughly enjoyed having him as a judge. He was gracious, funny, kind and very helpful to the riders. He is the type of judge that show managers really appreciate.

I was completely shocked when I learned of the documentary. I think the biggest reason for my shock was that I was just so surprised. And then it hit me. The Trip in the documentary is about the farthest thing from the Trip I met in May. He was one of the very, very few that actually got recovery right and stayed right. There are not many that can make it work. He did and I am so happy about that.

[lil'redbarn]

This story breaks my heart.
Anyone who has known someone with an addiction - and my God, this man was addicted to meth where only 3% of all addicts can ever remain clean - can appreciate Trip Harting's struggle. I am glad to read all of the positive things about Mr. Harting as well.

[FriesianX]

This story breaks my heart.
Anyone who has known someone with an addiction - and my God, this man was addicted to meth where only 3% of all addicts can ever remain clean - can appreciate Trip Harting's struggle. I am glad to read all of the positive things about Mr. Harting as well.


Yeah, isn't that the truth. I'm really looking forward to seeing this documentary. Not many make it BACK from the Hell of meth addiction. But it does help explain his ultimate cancer - one more ugly consequence of dirty needles. One more risk that addicts live with every day.

Let Trip's story be a lesson we can all look to. And a reason to appreciate what we have...

[doublebridle]

USDF News
For Immediate ReleaseFriday, September 05, 2008Thank You Very Much: A Tribute to Trip Harting
Thoughts and Memories of Trip Harting by Lois Yukins


Trip Harting was a complex man. He had the power to live in extremes. He was both childlike, refusing to be a grownup, and on the other side, had the wisdom of age. He could be fun and light and then serious and thoughtful, but never afraid of the total adventure of life. It is hard to imagine what energy he put into life; energy so positive that the space one shared with him just glowed. He was very private about his personal life and also his professional life, no matter which side you were on. Most often, one did not know much about the other. He confided with just a few of his closest friends his joys, successes and his troubles. I choose to think that this was an incredibly unique and special quality, others, Trip included, felt it was a deception. I'm not sure it should really be up for judgment.

I met Trip when I was quite young at a National Pony Club Championship. He was such a star then, talented, brave and of course handsome. Over the next couple of decades I had heard about him, but never really got to know him well until the eighties when we, by chance, had a judging job together. It was one of those moments everyone has had at sometime or another, the feeling that you had known this person forever, or had a deep relationship in another life. We never lost touch with each other from that time forward. We talked on the phone often and increasingly for the last several years. We were like brother and sister, best friends. We had many adventures together, such as our trip to England to judge together. We had such fun being tourists along with judging a wonderful show. We shared a near death experience one evening and I said 'that was horrible, the worst day of my life'. Trip said 'no', this was the best day of our life, we lived'. He was a glass half full sort of guy. At one point in my life I shared my private story of my tormented marriage. He was neither judgmental nor wanting to fix it; he chose rather to share with me some wisdom from his swami. His stories and examples helped me through a very difficult time. Trip was incredibly spiritual; he started every day with prayer. When he was home he had a shrine with many candles and special pictures and mementos of friends and spiritual beings. He prayed for his family, friends, his partner Steve and for situations that were confusing to him. He would light the candles and play the same Hawaiian music he loved so much. Trip never judged people. I never heard him say anything bad about anyone. He had an amazing ability to face something difficult and then work it through his heart and head to try to better understand the situation. Trip was the most generous and caring person I have ever known. He helped so many people during his lifetime, he made a difference.

Trip's many accomplishments may be found on www.DressageDaily.com as well as in the USDF Connection and Dressage Today.


Trip was known for his friendly demeanor at horseshows. He always gave his signature statements to the riders before and after each ride, and I am now hearing over and over again how much the riders appreciated those words and kindnesses. He loved horses most genuinely above almost anything else in his life, except perhaps his dogs. I remember him telling me how much he missed riding, but felt that part of his life was over, and he would continue teaching, coaching and judging. That was until his student and friend Lori Lauver convinced him to train her horse. He was so worried that he couldn't get back into shape to do a good job. He did both, and he was so proud of the horse, Lori and even himself. He had a lot of joy riding these past few years.

Trip had a secret, a very serious secret. Something he was neither proud of, nor could control. I didn't know anything about it, until five years ago, and then I had a secret too. You may wish to visit WWW.TRIPTOHELLANDBACK.COM . In the end, only a few weeks before he passed away, all charges were dropped, his record was clean. At the same time his documentary was premiered in Providence, RI and won the highest award. Trip was not able to come to the premier because he was too sick. He was prepared to lose his equestrian career. Trip was a well known speaker in Narcotics Anonymous, and very proud not only of his own recovery, but was very instrumental in the recovery of others.

When Trip heard of his diagnosis, he told me that he had done many regrettable things in his life, but had no regrets. If we are to believe we are put on this earth for a reason, or have things to accomplish before our next life, Trip is one of the few people I have known that really worked through many stages and seemed to raise himself to a better level with each situation. I am very proud to have known him.

His last days were at home with many of his dear friends. He knew we were there with him. He found time to say some last words to a few of us and then as I was holding his hand he kept saying, ‘don't be afraid, the angels are coming'. And they did, as we all touched him and each other.

We all will miss him so much. In keeping his memory, please share your experiences about Trip with each other. There are so many wonderful stories, and I wish he could hear them all right now. A while back Trip said, 'if I ever have a tombstone, put the proper dates on it and then say THANK YOU VERY MUCH'.

We will miss you dearest Trip.

[hoopoe]

Oh double bridle thank you so very much for posting Lois's wonderful words

I knew the lovely connection between them and feel her loss sharply. I hope she is finding peace now and that we all carry his spirit inside us as well.

[Reynard Ridge]

Threads like these remind me that life is rarely black and white.

[HSS]

Oh, how very nice.

The man was not just a drug addict, he was a major dealer, a busted felon, and a mule for the FBI.

God knows how many people he personally introduced to a drug infested hell. Or killed. He actually brags about how much drugs he sold. Unbelievable.

So, he was a dressage judge, and that forgives it all? He smiled at folks coming down center line, so it's ok?

He showed clear evidence of his addictions 15 years ago- which was the very last time I got within any close proximity to him-:no:

This "documentary" is just a very self serving attempt to salvage whatever reputation he might have had left- and apparently it's successful, since everyone is just sucking it up.

:rolleyes:

[Kimberlee]

Everyone deserves a 2nd chance... Everyone.

[Carol O]

Everyone deserves a 2nd chance... Everyone.

We have a huge drug problem in our community. I deal with that problem professionally, daily. It is a very difficult patient population. I am so thankful for the substance abuse counselors, many of whom were themselves abusers.

I am certain there will be much that is positive from Trip's film. He will continue to make a difference.

[dalpal]

Oh, how very nice.

The man was not just a drug addict, he was a major dealer, a busted felon, and a mule for the FBI.

God knows how many people he personally introduced to a drug infested hell. Or killed. He actually brags about how much drugs he sold. Unbelievable.

So, he was a dressage judge, and that forgives it all? He smiled at folks coming down center line, so it's ok?

He showed clear evidence of his addictions 15 years ago- which was the very last time I got within any close proximity to him-:no:

This "documentary" is just a very self serving attempt to salvage whatever reputation he might have had left- and apparently it's successful, since everyone is just sucking it up.

:rolleyes:

It truly is amazing to me just how nasty people can be on this board. I love how so many people sit back on this board and attempt to tell everyone that they just know what people are thinking...how do you know why his documentary was self serving? Got proof?

We have some real pissers on this board, that's for sure.

I didn't know the man personally....scribed for him once....enjoyed working with him. I've certainly made mistakes in my life......I'm not going to sit back and judge others.

[KatieStanley]

Everyone makes mistakes...some greater than others. NO ONE is perfect. Lets leave the judging to the big man upstairs...shall we? Trip was a very talented rider and a brave person for standing up, cleaning up and allowing the world into a very private part of his life in order to help make a difference.

[slc2]

The man was not just a drug addict, he was a major dealer, a busted felon, and a mule for the FBI.

--So are a whole lot of other people. People you work with, people you go to school with. They just don't happen to have told you.

God knows how many people he personally introduced to a drug infested hell. Or killed. He actually brags about how much drugs he sold. Unbelievable.

--I don't really believe he was bragging. I think he was just being honest about what he was doing.

--That there are drug dealers is one part of the problem. Another part is that people want to do drugs, and go find drug dealers.

--Don't accuse me of saying what Trip did was right to do what he did. I've been to enough funerals. I know what he did wasn't right.

So, he was a dressage judge, and that forgives it all? He smiled at folks coming down center line, so it's ok?

--I'm afraid you may have missed the whole point of Trip's honesty.

--The point was not at all that what Trip did was OK. The point was that it was NOT ok, and to try to keep others from going the same way.

--The idea was to get other people to NOT do drugs, by looking at him, and seeing how he destroyed himself, and what a wierd, hypocritical, double life he led.

--Yeah, he quit, but he also died a young man because he ruined himself.

--He was a good judge. Like most people, he had many sides. People aren't all good or all bad. People are usually kind of a mish mash - good at times, bad at others. Life is a work in progress. Yes, I still think it's worse to sell drugs to children than most of the 'wrong' things people do.

He showed clear evidence of his addictions 15 years ago- which was the very last time I got within any close proximity to him-

--I'm not sure it was really widely known. I don't think people who met him occasionally socially or briefly, as a judge, had any idea. Telling everyone was the idea of the documentary.

This "documentary" is just a very self serving attempt to salvage whatever reputation he might have had left- and apparently it's successful, since everyone is just sucking it up.

-- People who have brothers, sisters, parents who are drug addicts, destroying themselves, appreciate someone finally coming out and admitting that they have a problem. Drugs and addiction are a huge, huge problem. As many as 20 % of americans may have some level of 'drinking problem', and it's a very big part of the horse world, addictions and drug use. Someone needs to talk about it, rather than just avoiding the issue. Drug and alcohol addiction is a problem everywhere, in all groups. Crank is a huge issue in rural america, alcohol is everywhere, it's not something that was Trip's problem alone.

--Again, I think you missed it. The point wasn't to 'salvage' anything of Trip. Trip's life, reputation and health are gone. And by making the documentary he made SURE everyone knew what he was doing. He gave up every pretense he ever had of concealing it.

--When a person screws up this monumentally, all he really can do when it's all said and done, is be open about what he did and try to keep others from doing same.

--It was to salvage other people. People who realized what he was up to stayed away. The whole point is that it was a secret to many. And that it is too late to salvage Trip. It killed him. The point of the documentary is to save others.

[Valentina_32926]

I can't get the link to work- can someone tell me what it is?

Copied from web site:

Trip Harting was born a rich kid with a shot at the Olympics.
He became one of the top ten horse riders in the world.
But few knew about his other life: as one of the largest crystal-meth dealers in Washington DC.
For more than a decade Trip secretly juggled both lives.
But in the end, telling the truth was the only way he would survive.

[WindsongEq]

Most people make mistakes they wouldn't want known. True, his were punishshable by years in prison, a level of mistake most people would draw the line at. In the end he did the hard thing, to own up to his mistakes, share his personal struggles and failings with his family, friends, peers, and perfect strangers. I was impressed with his reason in the documentary for sharing all the "dirt" in his earlier life...to be at peace with his higher power.
He could not have known at the time of his documentary that he would pass on at such a young age.
That each of us would have such an opportunity..to meet our higher power with a clean conscience.
"...If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone..."

[FriesianX]

Being a drug dealer is a horrible thing - Trip doesn't deny it. I think (and obviously none of us can get into his head and say we KNOW what his intent was) his goal was to educate people on the horrors of meth. On what it does to a person, on how many lives it can destroy. And for those who KNOW a meth addict, on the fact that at least one person did escape the hell of it. There is hope, how little that glimmer may be.

Meth destroys lives - it causes mental AND physical illness, it destroys a person's teeth, their liver, their mind. And it exists everywhere - the nicest kids in school, your neighbor, the local grocery clerk, meth does NOT discriminate on who it destroys. Maybe seeing such a documentary will help people to realize this is a monster to confront.

Dealing is often a result of addiction. Addiction is an illness, and people will do anything to feed that illness. Ultimately, Trip paid the ultimate price - liver cancer is a common outcome of hepatitis caused by needle use - he thought he had beat the addiction, but it killed him. That is a pretty horrific ending to a huge battle.

Does this documentary excuse what Trip did while under the ugly powers of meth? No, but I believe his intent was to try to help other people understand meth is not a game they want to play. And if one person watches this, and later makes the choice to not try meth, then ultimately, isn't that a good thing? Because, talking to a meth addict, they will tell you, once you try it - you are under its power.

SLC says it pretty well - most people are not all good or all bad. They are imperfect human beings. Hopefully the better ones will learn from the bad they do and try to atone for that as well as they can... While they can...

[rothmpp]

Thank you, SLC. I have tried several times over the past month to respond to some of the posts on this and the other thread, and could not bring myself to actually send it, even after I wrote it.

I knew the Trip of the past five years. He and I would visit occasionally, as well as keep in touch, outside of just the horse show world. I did not know Trip well in the middle of his addiction, so I cannot and will not speak to what he was like then. What I will say is, he was very good about keeping the two parts of his life separate. I also believe that had he not passed away so suddenly, it would be much less likely that this documentary would have made it onto the radar screen of many people on this board. There had been a blog for almost a year about the film, written while the film was in development. That had never made it to this board. We are judging him on the 3 minutes of trailer film on the website, not even the whole film.

It can be simple to paint a picture of someone when they are gone. Unable to defend, explain, or even apologize for their choices. I would think that he has paid the ultimate price, seeing as he passed away very quickly after just getting to the point in his life where things were coming together. Part of the reason that the documentary was so important to him was to let those in the world of addiction know that it is possible to find your way back from the very darkest of places. Anyone who thinks that he was doing this to make money (and I have seen people comment specifically on that on other threads) does not know the world of independent filmmaking. He was not making money on the film.

And for all who insist on judging him, I sincerely hope that you have nothing in your past that could bring judgement from your peers when you are gone. If you believe that God has no forgiveness if someone is truly remorseful for their mistakes, then Heaven is going to be a very lonely place. In the end, He is the only one that you have to make peace with.

[Dressage Art]

Shocking to read and watch his documentary. I didn't know him at all, but it's a good thing that he came back from hell and came clean - rest in peace and may God be your judge now.

Unfortunately, he is not the only USEF judge who has an addiction, there are others and they judge dressage shows and represent USEF. They are obviously addicted, yet their addiction is not being addressed. People who are addicted do need help from others and they do need a chance. Some already used out all of their chances and are beyond help, but others still can come clean. I hope we can help our current judges with their addiction that are killing them and their reputation (and marking USEF reputation as well). May be there should be an anonymous help for dressage judges with an addiction set up in Trip’s memory?

[SunnySideUp]

Meth destroys lives - it causes mental AND physical illness, it destroys a person's teeth, their liver, their mind. And it exists everywhere - the nicest kids in school, your neighbor, the local grocery clerk, meth does NOT discriminate on who it destroys. Maybe seeing such a documentary will help people to realize this is a monster to confront.

...Ultimately, Trip paid the ultimate price - liver cancer is a common outcome of hepatitis caused by needle use - he thought he had beat the addiction, but it killed him. That is a pretty horrific ending to a huge battle.

...Does this documentary excuse what Trip did while under the ugly powers of meth? No, but I believe his intent was to try to help other people understand meth is not a game they want to play.

Fresian, I think you said it best. This country is being ravaged by meth. Before we ever hope to solve these complex problems they must come to light first. This documentary is attempting to do that.

[HSS]

You are all being conned from beyond the grave. I have little doubt that was the intent, and he certainly knew how to deceive and con people.

Get a grip folks. The people he was dealing to were------CLIENTS. Yep, cause that's who he knew.

That means YOUR SONS & DAUGHTERS and horse owners and riders and judges and it goes on and on. What, have none of you children or families? Do you really think that it's perfectly fine to have your 12 year olds in close proximity with an authority figure pushing meth? Am I the only one here who has a clue?

I hardly think I need apologize for having very little sympathy for someone who disseminated poison to his so called friends. In fact, I don't apologize- I think the sentiments expressed here are wildly inappropriate.

So, if he was black and poor and from inner Chicago and was busted as a drug dealer, would you think that he was a warm wonderful human being who truly repented of his crimes? Doubtful. But because he was once rich and white and cavorted with the wealthy, he's just a poor poor dude who deserves understanding, sympathy, and eternal good will. Where on earth is your common sense hiding? :confused:

What he deserved was to end up in prison. What he deserved was to end up dead. Which he did. Hardly a sympathetic outcome, but richly deserved.

Not because he personally was a drug addict- that is a total who cares?

Because he was a large scale drug dealer- killing and maiming all those around him without conscience or regrets or care. That's why in this society we prosecute drug dealers!

If any of you think that somehow this documentary is a work of honestly or integrity, well, you don't know drug dealers very well. Honesty and integrity are not characteristics of their personal immorality.

And SLC. What gives you the right to slander anyone's colleagues by asserting that they are large scale drug dealers? Just what kind of turkey are you anyhow? And what kind of bottom feeding riff raff do you associate with:eek:

[rothmpp]

You are all being conned from beyond the grave. I have little doubt that was the intent, and he certainly knew how to deceive and con people.

Get a grip folks. The people he was dealing to were------CLIENTS. Yep, cause that's who he knew.

That means YOUR SONS & DAUGHTERS and horse owners and riders and judges and it goes on and on. What, have none of you children or families? Do you really think that it's perfectly fine to have your 12 year olds in close proximity with an authority figure pushing meth? Am I the only one here who has a clue?

...So, if he was black and poor and from inner Chicago and was busted as a drug dealer, would you think that he was a warm wonderful human being who truly repented of his crimes? Doubtful. But because he was once rich and white and cavorted with the wealthy, he's just a poor poor dude who deserves understanding, sympathy, and eternal good will. Where on earth is your common sense hiding? :confused:

What he deserved was to end up in prison. What he deserved was to end up dead. Which he did. Hardly a sympathetic outcome, but richly deserved.

Not because he personally was a drug addict- that is a total who cares?

Because he was a large scale drug dealer- killing and maiming all those around him without conscience or regrets or care. That's why in this society we prosecute drug dealers!

If any of you think that somehow this documentary is a work of honestly or integrity, well, you don't know drug dealers very well. Honesty and integrity are not characteristics of their personal immorality...



Wow - that's a lot of hostility.

If you knew him, fine. To say that those of us who have tried to explain that it was not so black and white are stupid and easily conned - that's just insulting. And I take serious offense to the idea that you assume I would just throw away a poor, black dealer who was trying to do something positive to alleviate some of the bad that he had done. You don't know me. Just as I don't know you and whether there is a personal reason you are so judgemental about this. Trip did not know that he would not be here when this came to light. It's not like he left the film to be found upon his death.

It's not like he was killed in a drug deal gone wrong. He has paid the price, I would think to your satisfaction. If you believe that he had no conscience or regrets, then why did he stop? Drug dealers without conscience are rarely stopped by the threat of prison. The street is a much more dangerous and scary place, and you're not provided the opportunity for a trial by jury before being sentenced. And as I said before, if he was not repentent (which I believe he was), then he will be paying the price for eternity in hell.

Considering his absolute desire to keep this information from the dressage community before the documentary, and that this has been such a surprise to so many, I think that your 12 yo was probably pretty safe at the horse show.

[slc2]

Get a grip folks. The people he was dealing to were------CLIENTS. Yep, cause that's who he knew.

--Actually I don't believe he was all that selective. Most drug dealers will sell to anyone. Horse clients were just some of the people he knew.

--Unfortunately, I'm very sure he DID have a lot of horsey clients. When I last went to look at boarding barns I went to the barn of a jumper fellow I'd met at a sport horse auction years ago.

--I was in for a shock. He was sitting on a tack trunk 'holding forth', and I don't think I've ever seen anyone so juiced in my life. I beat it the hell out of there.

--He was giving a riding lesson to a KID - the kid's MOTHER was standing there, and he was so juiced he could barely stand up. He got off the tack trunk and just about fell on his face.

--That, my friends, is just how bad this problem is in the horse world. Trip ain't the only one.

That means YOUR SONS & DAUGHTERS and horse owners and riders and judges and it goes on and on. What, have none of you children or families? Do you really think that it's perfectly fine to have your 12 year olds in close proximity with an authority figure pushing meth? Am I the only one here who has a clue?

--Um, dear, I still don't think you quite get the point. The point is that it Isn't OK.

--The point is ALSO THIS - it's all around. It is so many people that it amounts to about 20 per cent of the population of our country has a drinking problem and MORE have a drug problem, and many have both. It's squeezing up around 40 percent. Even Amish kids are buying crank, for God's sake.

--And I wonder, where did you ever get the idea that you're the only person who doesn't want their kids around this poison? When exactly in your life, did you get so self-proclaimedly holy as to believe that you're the only person in the world who doesn't approve of drugs and addiction?

I hardly think I need apologize for having very little sympathy for someone who disseminated poison to his so called friends. In fact, I don't apologize- I think the sentiments expressed here are wildly inappropriate.

--Ok. So you think the sentiments are inapprpopriate. What sentiments are those? THat people aren't jumping up and down screaming bad stuff about Trip Harting?

--I am looking at it a different way. I am not looking at ANY of this as Trip Harting saying 'what i did was right and good', I'm looking at it as the total opposite of that. You're freaking at people because...I'm not sure why. I'm really not at all sure why you're beating your chest and trying to pretend the rest of us want our children to become addicted to Crank.

--I don't look at anyone not screaming and beating their chest as condoning it. I just look at it as they aren't trying to act quite as high and mighty and perfect as you are.

So, if he was black and poor and from inner Chicago and was busted as a drug dealer, would you think that he was a warm wonderful human being who truly repented of his crimes? Doubtful.

--All people don't universally despise all criminals, and I am really not sure what you're getting at when you say, 'I bet you only like Trip because he's white and you'd hate a black, poor drug dealer'. That is just such a wierd thing to say I can't even respond to it. It's just odd. It's just like you're trying desperately to hunt up something to shore up your anger.

--My minister, actually, holds a support group for newly paroled drug addict criminals in the poorest big city in the United States, I believe, my city. They are mostly Black, mostly poor. Most are multiple felons and are recidivist. It's a big reason I support the church, because unlike you, he's actually trying to do something.

--He believes that they are warm, wonderful human beings who truly repent of their crimes. He talks about these men in glowing, positive terms. They may not all be quite like that, many of them will drop out of the group. Many will go to jail. Many will die. Strangely enough, he helps quite a few of them. They start actually being the warm, wonderful human beings he thinks they are. No, it's not that easy. It is much more complicated than that.

--But the point is that your fantasy accusation, about people hating poor blacks and adoring rich white drug dealers is...it's a little wierd.

--A great many people work very hard to keep all convicted alive and healthy while in jail, work very hard to keep our jails from being taken over by gangs and organized crime, work very hard to teach them a better life, and to keep them from going back into hell when they get out of jail.

But because he was once rich and white and cavorted with the wealthy, he's just a poor poor dude who deserves understanding, sympathy, and eternal good will. Where on earth is your common sense hiding?

--Um...I don't know exactly how to break it to you, but the guy's dead.

--After people die, people usually quell their anger at what the person did during their life, and say things like 'rest in peace'. They put aside their anger, and try to be....wellll....just a wee bit Christian about it. In Bangladesh there is a saying, when people die, their relatives say to others, 'Please forgive him'. That's what they say.

--Usually, people put aside their anger when a person kicks the bucket. Just a tradition you might consider. It looks a little odd to go to someone's funeral and jump up and down on their casket, and scream, 'You were such a bast***!'

What he deserved was to end up in prison. What he deserved was to end up dead. Which he did. Hardly a sympathetic outcome, but richly deserved.

--Angry much? Judgemental much?

Not because he personally was a drug addict- that is a total who cares?

--Now you don't care that a person was addicted to drugs? My you ARE an angry lady!

--I DO care that a person, alive or dead, is or was a drug addict. I want to fight drug addiction. I want to encourage people to seek help. I can't see how you can be such an anger champion about it, frankly, as to say you don't care about them.

Because he was a large scale drug dealer- killing and maiming all those around him without conscience or regrets or care. That's why in this society we prosecute drug dealers!

--Um...wait a minute. He did say he regretted it. THe documentary was ALL ABOUT having a conscience. It was about saying that he no longer was going to pretend or hide it.

--The documentary looks like it was patterned verbatim on the Twelve Step Program of Alcoholics Anonymous.

--Before you start screaming more bitchy, nasty personal insults, no I am not an alumni. I used to take people - people I went to high school with, to AA meetings, to get them involved, and hopefully to help them become ex-addicts.

--The documentary looks like Trip Harting was doing what they call, 'working the program'. You might want to familiarize yourself with a very successful twelve step program, since you seem addicted to anger ;)

--Doing such a thing, going through the steps, opens a person to alot of hatred and scorn. A big part of the twelve step program is acknowledging that you have done damage, and that you go to the people who you hurt, and you talk to them.

--For example, in your case, after all the personal, nasty insults you directed at me, you would come up to me, and acknowledge that you did that, and I would have my say.

--From people such as yourself, for example. But it serves a purpose. It may benefit someone. It may scare someone into getting help. It may get the message to someone, don't go down this road. Look what happens if you do.

If any of you think that somehow this documentary is a work of honestly or integrity, well, you don't know drug dealers very well. Honesty and integrity are not characteristics of their personal immorality.

And SLC. What gives you the right to slander anyone's colleagues by asserting that they are large scale drug dealers?

--I am afraid you are missing the point. I am talking about statistics. Nearly HALF the people in the United States have some sort of addiction issues. 2 out of every five people you know, 2 out of 5 people I know. DO THE MATH.

--You may never have had addiction touch someone you love. Lucky you. I find the people who are the most outraged are often those with no experience. They see it from a distance.

--People who Trip's story brings up memories of a brother, sister or mother, often react very differently.

--Sadly. Quietly. With confusion, with questions. With prayer. And most of all, not by condoning it, as you so frantically are accusing people of, but with wondering what they can do to help.

--It is all around you. You can be angry and get all high and mighty about how much smarter and better you are than everyone else, or you can face the problem and try to help people.

--People all over the world are out there doing stupid things. Destructive things. Dangerous things. Criminal things. You can beat your chest about how you are so much better than they are, or you can contribute to a solution.

Just what kind of turkey are you anyhow? And what kind of bottom feeding riff raff do you associate with

-- Do you really think that such catty insults and nasty remarks make you look clever or bright, or that by insulting and calling people horrible names, who see this a little differnetly from how you do, in the sense that they aren't quite as nasty as you about it, that you are somehow made yourself more worthwhile? More holy?

[blondmane]

Well said SLC2!

Was there any mention in the Chronicle about Trip's passing? I am a subscriber and somehow missed it if it was in there. I hope that because the documentary came out that many of the equestrian publications didn't neglect to at least give him a tasteful goodbye.

[Tallac]

I first met Trip when I was 10 years old, he judged me in my very first horse show in Alaska, and the next day I took a clinic from him. That was 20 years ago.

I then worked with him again between the ages of 15-17 years old, when I was competing in the CDS Junior Champs.

He was always postive and encouraging. He was supportive, he never talked down to me or intimidated me, like so many adults can do to Young Riders.

He always remebered me from that show and clinic in Alaska, and when I would see him from time to time he would always say Hello to me.

I was around him as a young person and later would see him as an adult at shows. He always treated me with kindness.

[HSS]

that's a lot of hostility. Hostility? How about objective facts?

Trip did not know that he would not be here when this came to light. It's not like he left the film to be found upon his death.

Yes, he did know that he was dying. This was his legacy. He was simply trying to save his reputation, because when the truth was unfolded, he KNEW that people like myself would think he was dirt underfoot.

It's not like he was killed in a drug deal gone wrong. He has paid the price, I would think to your satisfaction. If you believe that he had no conscience or regrets, then why did he stop? .... And as I said before, if he was not repentent (which I believe he was), then he will be paying the price for eternity in hell.

Man judges by external. evidence. He only stopped because he was BUSTED, not because he suddenly grew a conscience or regrets. His own actions condemned him. Death was the ultimate result of his choices in life. Bad ones.

Considering his absolute desire to keep this information from the dressage community before the documentary, and that this has been such a surprise to so many, I think that your 12 yo was probably pretty safe at the horse show
Your 12 year old maybe, certainly not mine or anyone else I know who have children. And this was not a secret, eh? No secret- the FBI knew, his friends knew, this is not something which can be hidden- that's a con job, which you all seem to be swallowing whole.

So, you think I'm hostile, judgemental, and angry because I rightfully assert that a convicted felon who made a living by destroying the lives of friends and collegues shouldn't be held up as an admirable icon of the dressage community? Where do you all live, in liberal lah lah land?

I'm amazed that my point of view is considered insulting to the opinions expressed by people who are writing in this forum. The tolerance for criminal behavior is obviously far higher than my own. It's not as though the guy had a few drinks too many and drove off a bridge and killed a woman - Oh, wait, that's another sterling charactor...right, he just sold poison to everyone he could for decades and likely killed a few along the way but that's ok because he was a nice person who tried to be helpful to dressage riders and then he made a movie and died. My bad.

SLC- gobble gobble gobble

[rothmpp]

HSS - I'm not going to get into a debate about this with you. I will only say that there is nothing objectively factual about what you said in relation to this situation with this person. Someone I knew. Someone that you did not. If you truly believe that the is no redemption and no one who ever makes mistakes is redeemable, nothing I or anyone else has said will change your mind.

Trip Harting was diagnosed with terminal cancer the week before the premier of this film. He did not know he was dying anymore than you or I know that we will die someday. That is a fact.

He got clean when he was busted. He then used the opportunity to both work with others getting clean and with law enforcement to attempt to bring others to justice. He did not relapse as so many do. That is a fact.

I don't live in liberal lah lah land. I cling to my guns and my bible, like any good conservative. And I believe that God thinks that everyone deserves a second chance. If that makes me foolish and unworthy in your eyes, I'm okay with that. I think you're unneccessarily harsh and judgmental toward people who had more knowledge of the situation than yourself. You can be harsh and judgemental toward Trip. He would be the first to say that was fine. But when you attack others for sharing their opinions, it just makes you look small minded.

[Anselcat]

The tolerance for criminal behavior is obviously far higher than my own. [/COLOR]

Forgiveness and compassion are not the same as "tolerance for criminal behavior". But I understand that this may be too subtle a concept for some to grasp. IMHO.

[cyberbay]

HSS comments maybe reflect more on him/her than Trip Harding's clearly lovely person, who had something maybe people like HSS don't have: a wide-open personality, with an ability to care, and to see, and to act such caring.

Why does he frighten you so, HSS? Too close to the bone, or something? If you don't want your children around him, than be a vigilant parent and take your children elsewhere -- but don't act like TH is a monster, or make him bear your guilt and fear about the world. If you're so scared for your children, do you get up in arms about polluting SUVs?

People who are fearful and make it other people's problems -- instead of trying to understand and manage their fears -- are, to me, the problem in this world, HSS.

And there are far worse things to be than a drug dealer. How 'bout the guy who runs the corner liquor store?

The posts you seem unhappy about aren't about tolerance for criminal behavior -- and speaking of criminal see above paragraph about liquor stores;also note that damage caused by alcohol use and abuse far exceeds that caused by illegal drug use -- they're about a simple display of the humane understanding of human behavior, and the plain honesty they are willing to stand up to: that none of us know what will befall us in the life, and that we can feel a real sorrow for those who had to fight terrible personal battles.

[Ponyclubrocks]

Forgiveness and compassion are not the same as "tolerance for criminal behavior". But I understand that this may be too subtle a concept for some to grasp. IMHO.


Thank you. My thoughts precisely.

[ToN Farm]

He only stopped because he was BUSTED, not because he suddenly grew a conscience or regrets.
That's what I thought, too. Did we misinterpret what we've read? It was either prison or stop what you're doing, right? I still unclear about the details of how he evaded jail.

Considering his absolute desire to keep this information from the dressage community before the documentary
Of course, because that would have ended his career of judging and teaching. Do you think he was sometimes high when judging?? Do you think his personality was affected by drugs, and that is why he was thought to be such a fine fellow?

So, you think I'm hostile, judgemental, and angry because I rightfully assert that a convicted felon who made a living by destroying the lives of friends and collegues shouldn't be held up as an admirable icon of the dressage community? Where do you all live, in liberal lah lah land?
I agree with you, and probably many others do too, but don't have the desire to post here about it. I'm all for forgiveness, but I don't see why this guy was considered an 'icon'. I did not know him at all, except for what I've read. He was a good judge, a good rider, and a good teacher......is that IT??

The tolerance for criminal behavior is obviously far higher than my own. It's not as though the guy had a few drinks too many and drove off a bridge and killed a woman - Oh, wait, that's another sterling character
LOL LOL LOL There are some of us that have never excused that one.

[doublebridle]

The man led a life of unfathomable deception, pretense and charades, then he got caught and turned himself around..... but was it still a deception???
Is it possible to be feel absolute revulsion and sympathy for him at the same time??

[egontoast]

Obviously some people have no understanding of addiction.

Just being an addict is likely punishment hell enough for anyone, let alone dying young from the damage done. No need to put the person in jail to exact punishment. He suffered, he died. He did not get off scot free.

No one chooses to be an addict. Selling to others who presumably have the free will to buy or not is hardly the worst thing an addict might do to support the addiction. if he was hanging out at junior high recess to make a few bucks, I might feel differently.

[CatOnLap]

My, what an interesting thread.
May poor Trip RIP, but his reputation won't for quite a while. HOwever this is stimulating people to think of what they really know about addiction and people.

As a show committee, during the time Trip describes would've been in the middle of the height of his addiction and dealing, I met him to be a judge at our local show.
Charming, gracious, lovely to be with. Manners to a fault. One could not help but love the persona. Intelligent, witty, great fun, a flirt with all genders and ages. I was working in the criminal justice system and with a lot of addicts at the time. I would never have guessed from that casual contact with him, but his own words show how fooled I was in not seeing what he was doing on the other side of his life. Maybe the fact that I needed my coffee at 7:30 am to wake up and Trip was at the showground a few minutes later, complete with fresh pressed suit, jaunty hat, boutoniere and bright eyes should've been a clue.

Aside from the vitriole clearly leaking out, HSS may be right that he was a good con. That is what "keeping your two worlds separate" means. You are conning both sides. (as well as yourself into believing that it is OK to do that). That he later repented his ways and changed says a lot to me, but I note he did it under threat of serious consequences. That he died too young from an awful disease and kept a happy spirit is both poetic justice and wry irony.

However, that said, I think the point is we must all be careful and keep an open mind. There is no doubt that Trip was remarkable in many ways and continues to make us seriously think about important issues. .

[CatOnLap]

the two issues that come to my mind about this character and the kennedy reference, is

"Can a life of virtue after the fact, ever make up for the unpardonable sin?"

and

"Is personality stable across the lifetime"

current psychology research says yes. tigers, stripes and all that.

[lalahartma1]

So, you think I'm hostile, judgemental, and angry because I rightfully assert that a convicted felon who made a living by destroying the lives of friends and collegues shouldn't be held up as an admirable icon of the dressage community? Where do you all live, in liberal lah lah land?


I don't know how this guy could have destroyed the lives of friends and colleagues? Does free choice and responsibility for oneself matter? Are there folks out there claiming he destroyed them (Or friends and colleagues of friend and colleagues claiming this?) ?

[MMorgan]

[QUOTE=HSS;3541884]You are all being conned from beyond the grave. I have little doubt that was the intent, and he certainly knew how to deceive and con people.

HSS, I wish I understood better where you were coming from. Were you personally affected by him? Or perhaps someone like him? If that were the case, I would get your bitterness, perhaps. As others on this thread are stating, it is not a black and white situation. Those of us who see this in more complexity are not necessarily being "conned".


I hardly think I need apologize for having very little sympathy for someone who disseminated poison to his so called friends. In fact, I don't apologize- I think the sentiments expressed here are wildly inappropriate.

Where on earth is your common sense hiding? :confused:

Don't apologize--but don't ask us to either. And please don't insult us by stating that our sentiments are "wildly inappropriate" and that we have no "common sense".

[Ajierene]

No one chooses to be an addict. Selling to others who presumably have the free will to buy or not is hardly the worst thing an addict might do to support the addiction. if he was hanging out at junior high recess to make a few bucks, I might feel differently.

I disagree with this. You choose to take that first hit, that first drink, that first smoke. When you find your life is controlled by it, you choose to continue to be controlled by the substance and not get help. More than that, Trip chose to deal to others. As you stated, everyone has a choice to buy or not buy - but dealing something that you know will hurt them is illegal. It is illegal if it is a drug, it is illegal if you are putting toxic waste into a compound to keep the streets clean.

I forget where this happened - but there was an instance where toxic waste got into waste oil that was used on the streets in a town. The town had to be evacuated and most of the townspeople suffered health problems. The company responsible was prosecuted.

Contrary to other's opinions - I can say with a 90% assurance that Trip's money helped keep him out of jail. A poorer person caught doing the same thing would not be able at least to afford the really good lawyers that can work a deal.

Was Trip repentive? Maybe - he had to be caught first. That says something. That says someone had to figuratively beat him over the head in order for him to agree that meth is a bad idea. That says something to me. The fact that he did not follow the twelve step program as well as he could have - public apology to the community is the step I am thinking of. Apologizing is part of the program. With a public figure, you have to publically admit your wrongdoing and apologize for the deception.

I don't think he is an 'icon' and I don't think he is special. He's just another rich person with a documentary to make himself feel better about his life when he knows it is nearing the end.

[CatOnLap]

but dealing something that you know will hurt them is illegal.
tobacco
alcohol
BP
aspartame
cyclamates
2-4-D
MacDonald's Fast Food

Need I go on? This is partly why its such a grey area.
Illegal is a social judgement. Plenty of things are being marketed to us that are very harmful when used as directed!

[~Freedom~]

Everyone deserves a 2nd chance... Everyone.


I am sure D Spinks would like this post...not sure about others though.

[kkj]

CatOnLap, I like your posts. Very thoughtful and interesting perspective. HSS did you know him? You come across as so angry.

Personally, I have no sympathy for drug dealers but I do believe people can redeem themselves and can earn a second chance. Seeing him looking so frail and broken and the fate he met, that is a lot of punishment in itself.

And I have less disdain for someone like him than for someone who drugs or tortures horses. He did not put a nose twitch on his customers and beat them silly or hold them down and shoot them up.

[slc2]

Actually, most addicts are very charming and many of them also go on for years and years concealing a 'second life', just as Trip seems to have.

There isn't much of anything unusual about Trip, in fact. It seems quite odd, actually, to hear him spoken of as if he is so unique. Most people who work with addicts would be very, very familiar with the type.

The film he made, looks basically like the work of someone in AA who is 'working the program', and I think it might make more sense in that context. I think people mistake the process of AA for 'bragging about it'. The point of AA is to 'come clean', to admit what one did and accept consequences.

Many addicts never become completely honest and reliable. I would, however, prefer to see them 'working the program' and attempting to move thru the steps however well they are or aren't doing it, than drinking and getting worse.

The most peculiar misconception most people have is that addicts must all be crawling around in the gutter and look dissheviled and obvious. Generally, actually, they don't.

It is debatable how much 'free choice' exactly is involved in addiction. There are two warring camps.

One, that any suggestion of biology being connected with addiction deserves the usual chest thumping screaming that 'no one takes any responsibility for anything these days'.

The other, that 'poor baby, he can't help drinking, he has biology that makes him do it'.

I think both those points of view require one to ignore a lot of information.

They may be born with neurological problems, such as an errant 'reward pathway' in the brain, so that sugar and dopamine activity is out of wack, and their response to drugs is abnormal. There are some odd things about addicts that suggest their biochemistry is different. Their physical reaction to their first contact with drugs and alcohol is usually completely different from other people's.

I do know one thing. All the people I grew up with, who became adults with lifelong chronic drug and alcohol problems, were obviously different from other people, and they started showing that addictive pattern - well, actually, very early on in life.

If I had to say what are the most strongly associated factors I've noticed, it might be having parents with addictions and being unhappy. Most of the people I knew who grew up to be alcoholics had a number of family members who were also addicts, and were not happy as younger people.

If addiction is some sort of biochemical thing, there still is an element of 'free choice', supposedly. A person could accept help, could seek out help, could take medication, counseling, could have the good luck to simply be forced to accept help, even before addiction starts, as there is a very strong familial pattern and 'people at risk' can often be identified.

The most resistant to help addict I know, a fellow I grew up with, started as a very young pre teen with a fascination with drugs. He had a very nice family, but seemed extremely isolated, depressed and frustrated with humankind. His sister had the same problems. Another younger sister did not, quite happy, successful, no addictions. Genetic lottery? That's what some people think.

Watching him destroy himself was not pleasant. And he did it with a determination and a single mindedness that would amaze most people.

He did some of the most disgustingly inconsiderate, irresponsible, manipulative things I've ever seen a human being do. He was, in a word, awful. Despite being utterly charming, he was selfish, impulsive, deceitful and had no interest in how his actions made others feel.

I believe AA 'saved' him just about as much as he will ever be saved. He's now what they all in AA, a 'dry drunk', in that he is still charming and manipulative, still has a great many problems dealing with people, hasn't become a terribly caring, loving person, even, that he manipulates others in AA in order to use them, but he is, by and large, not drinking. For some people, that's as good as it gets.

We may never all agree as to why or how people become addicts, but I know one thing for sure. They become addicts.

And I know something else. The people who work with them, who try to help them, who try to get them sober and turn them into productive, non addicted people, are indeed, doing God's work on earth.

[Gestalt]

I disagree with this. You choose to take that first hit, that first drink, that first smoke. When you find your life is controlled by it, you choose to continue to be controlled by the substance and not get help. More than that, Trip chose to deal to others. As you stated, everyone has a choice to buy or not buy - but dealing something that you know will hurt them is illegal. It is illegal if it is a drug, it is illegal if you are putting toxic waste into a compound to keep the streets clean.

I forget where this happened - but there was an instance where toxic waste got into waste oil that was used on the streets in a town. The town had to be evacuated and most of the townspeople suffered health problems. The company responsible was prosecuted.

Contrary to other's opinions - I can say with a 90% assurance that Trip's money helped keep him out of jail. A poorer person caught doing the same thing would not be able at least to afford the really good lawyers that can work a deal.

Was Trip repentive? Maybe - he had to be caught first. That says something. That says someone had to figuratively beat him over the head in order for him to agree that meth is a bad idea. That says something to me. The fact that he did not follow the twelve step program as well as he could have - public apology to the community is the step I am thinking of. Apologizing is part of the program. With a public figure, you have to publically admit your wrongdoing and apologize for the deception.

I don't think he is an 'icon' and I don't think he is special. He's just another rich person with a documentary to make himself feel better about his life when he knows it is nearing the end.


Absolutely. And I also believe a tiger cannot change his stripes, he can only conceal them.

[Pookah]

I live in "liberal la-la land." And I like it here. Make fun of me all you want, but I think the world would be a better place if we all followed the rules we learned in kindergarten--Be kind to others. Share. Play fair. Say you're sorry. If that makes me a liberal nutcase, I can live with that.

None of us are perfect. We've all made mistakes we regret, and choices that we wish we could do over. Trip wasn't perfect, any more than any of us. I've seen friends become addicted to crystal meth, and I've never seen any of them overcome that addiction long-term. I always admired Trip as a judge and as a person. I still admire him as someone who overcame an incredibly powerful addiction and did what he could to be authentic and honest in his life, and to help others avoid the path he had taken. That doesn't mean I condone all of his choices, but he is not perfect any more than I am.

I doubt anyone on this board agrees that drug dealing is a positive thing. But, we are all responsible for our own choices. Drug use is a societal problem, and we can't blame it entirely on drug dealers. We all have free will, and we are all responsible for our own actions. Trip was responsible for his actions, and he did the best he could to make amends for actions he regretted; all of us should hope that we can say the same when our time here is over.

[Ajierene]

tobacco
alcohol
BP
aspartame
cyclamates
2-4-D
MacDonald's Fast Food

Need I go on? This is partly why its such a grey area.
Illegal is a social judgement. Plenty of things are being marketed to us that are very harmful when used as directed!

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't all these products have warning labels? Where is the warning label on the meth that dealers are selling? This is where the difference is. This is what I was talking about with the toxic waste in the oil used to keep the roads safe. The people were not told there was toxic waste in the oil. McDonald's also got into trouble with their product and had to put 'warning labels' out, in the way of nutritional information.

My issue is not so much with Trip being addicted to Meth, but with him dealing. Personally, I think he's an idiot for even taking Meth to begin with. Dealing it, encouraging other people to use it, possibly giving incorrect information so that people are not making as informed choice as otherwise? Not so good.

It is debatable how much 'free choice' exactly is involved in addiction. There are two warring camps.

One, that any suggestion of biology being connected with addiction deserves the usual chest thumping screaming that 'no one takes any responsibility for anything these days'.

The other, that 'poor baby, he can't help drinking, he has biology that makes him do it'.

I still disagree here. While there is evidence that there are people who are genetically predisposed to addiction, you are still talking about a choice. Especially since you are not talking about an addiction to prescription medication, alcohol or something else that is legal and/or prescribed to you for a specific purpose. Trip took an illegal drug. He did not start out with a casual drink in social settings or hurt himself and was prescribed pain relievers. He took something for a specific purpose - to alter his state of mind. Yes, some prescriptions alter your state of mind as well, but unless it is depression medication, it is not their primary purpose.

More than that, he chose to sell the drug to others. There is no genetic predisposition to being a drug dealer - that is a career choice. The fact that he kept it under wraps after he was caught and for many years no one knew he had been a meth dealer, does not lead me to believe he was following any program. Part of any program is admitting your mistakes and apologizing for them.

I did not see the documentary so if someone has seen it, can they explain where he apologized to anyone?

The fact that he made this documentary at the end of his life and/or career, leads me to believe it was more self serving. Someone trule repentent would admit his wrongdoing and take the heat from the community. Leave it up to them to either forgive him or kick him out if that is the penance the community decides he must do.

[slc2]

As I stated many times, there are different camps on this issue. I would caution anyone who thinks they are free to state anything other than HHS's type of opinion publicly in most groups - you will get slandered, attacked and name called.

But making the documentary did exactly what you said you would prefer him to do. It destroyed any pretense that he was not doing this, and for a far wider audience than knew about it before the documentary went out. People don't make tons of money on documentaries. It's not a profit making thing.

The documentary is about 'working' the AA program. That is the kind of thing they want, to admit to people what one did, and to take the consequences...some people will be very angry and shun them, some will not...the idea is the person offers themselves up to accept whatever consequences result from being honest about what they did. It is about accepting a higher power and asking for help from that higher power.

I'd far rather a person do something like make a documentary than continue to deal drugs.

[tikidoc]

The fact that he made this documentary at the end of his life and/or career, leads me to believe it was more self serving. Someone trule repentent would admit his wrongdoing and take the heat from the community. Leave it up to them to either forgive him or kick him out if that is the penance the community decides he must do.

On this particular point, I would have to note that he did not get diagnosed with a terminal illness until just before the premiere of the movie, so it does not appear that he made the documentary knowing that he was dying.

That said, I also agree in part with many here who are arguing with each other. I don't think there is anyone who works with addicts (I do to a minor degree - I see many addicted pregnant women in my practice but I am not the one who primarily cares for their addiction issues) who would not agree that there is certainly a biological component to addiction.

That said, I think we are only influenced (and maybe limited to a certain range of behaviors) by our biology, not ruled by it. We still have freedom of choice, and as many have noted, this is not a case of someone addicted to a substance that one could have initially tried legally, such as alcohol. On the other hand, not having seen the documentary, I don't know if a legal addiction preceded the meth in his case, as is the case with many addicts. They start with a legal addiction, then go on to illegal substances when already under the cloud of addiction.

My one problem with what I know about the movie is that it presents an example of someone addicted to crystal meth who is able to lead a separate, productive life. I have seen many meth addicts in my practice. Most don't function at much of any productive level, and could not present themselves as well as he did most of the time. They are strung out, often with poor hygeine, and have "meth mouth", the horrible dental disease associated with this particular addiction.

As a parent, I am angered by anyone who chooses to sell illegal drugs, especially someone who spends as much time as he did in the company of youngsters. Did he get any of them hooked? I don't know, nor do I know if any of us does. To me, although anyone who sells drugs is horribly, horribly wrong, there are certainly differing degrees of "wrongness". Someone who only sells to other established addicts is less wrong than someone who actively tries to create new clients by introducing them to the substance. Do we know where along this spectrum he was? To me, this is a pretty important question to answer. I would never, ever forgive someone who introduced kids to crystal meth. Ever. I could have a degree of sympathy to someone who sold to other addicts at the height of his addiction.

I would have had more respect for him had he made the decision to stop the drugs and make the documentary on his own, rather than being caught first. On the other hand, many are caught and go right back to their old addiction and their old behaviors. Most do. He was able to stay clean and make good use of his recovery. He deserves kudos for that. And for making it public, presumably in an attempt to educate others.

And lastly, he apparently was a nice guy at shows, who was encouraging to others and was a good judge. No, I don't think he should be idolized for this, especially in light of all of the above, but give credit where it is due.

Bottom line, most people are not purely good or evil. I don't think Trip should be put up on a pedestal, but I also hope many can learn from his mistakes. And there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that he had a good side.

[slc2]

I think it would be pretty impossible to prove that someone didn't sell drugs to children or young people, and only to 'established addicts', and to be perfectly honest, I don't think 'selling only to established addicts' is any less of a crime or a horror than selling to children or young people. I would disagree with you on that point. It's terrible, no matter who one sells to. You never know which of those 'established' addicts might have recovered and done something decent. You never know if on the day, being high might cause a murder, a robbery, a fatal car accident, or a desperate family member to commit suicide, or the worsening of a mental illness, or other effects. Addiction reaches out and affects many people - even the counselors, prison guards and others who deal with them. Seeing the problem often drives these people to despair as well, these people attempting to provide care also are profoundly affected in their life outlook.

Whether 'you have a choice' may or may not be true, or to whatever degree, is pretty much moot. For whatever reason or by whatever mechanism, people wind up as addicts.

Meth is a plague. An absolute plague. It's a huge problem in rural America. It's more widespread than any drug other than alcohol.

[spaghetti legs]

Can the people posting "facts" in their posts provide any statistical data to back up their opinions?

[tikidoc]

I think it would be pretty impossible to prove that someone didn't sell drugs to children or young people, and only to 'established addicts', and to be perfectly honest, I don't think 'selling only to established addicts' is any less of a crime or a horror than selling to children or young people. I would disagree with you on that point. It's terrible, no matter who one sells to. You never know which of those 'established' addicts might have recovered and done something decent. You never know if on the day, being high might cause a murder, a robbery, a fatal car accident, or a desperate family member to commit suicide, or the worsening of a mental illness, or other effects. Addiction reaches out and affects many people - even the counselors, prison guards and others who deal with them. Seeing the problem often drives these people to despair as well, these people attempting to provide care also are profoundly affected in their life outlook.

I do not disagree that both are horribly wrong. Both are certainly a crime that deserve harsh punishment. But I do think that there is a difference (and this is merely a matter of degree of wrongness - there is no question that both are horribly wrong) between someone who supplies the drug to someone who is already a fellow addict and someone who goes to a schoolyard and tried to get kids to try drugs to create new addicts to sell to. Both are terrible. But as a parent who has to worry about someone approaching my child and offering her drugs, and how I can prepare her to make the right decision, I believe that one IS more terrible than the other. In my opinion. On the other hand, we will likely never know which category this particular dealer fell into.

Whether 'you have a choice' may or may not be true, or to whatever degree, is pretty much moot. For whatever reason or by whatever mechanism, people wind up as addicts.

Meth is a plague. An absolute plague. It's a huge problem in rural America. It's more widespread than any drug other than alcohol.

Or tobacco. Or prescription narcotics, which is a much larger problem than most realize. Especially in my state, where the statistics on the prevalence of this problem are staggering (I can get numbers next week when I'm in my office and have them handy, if anyone is interested). I see far more patients addicted to prescription drugs than methamphetamines. And the methadone clinics which just continue to increase doses and keep people on methadone forever, rather than using methadone as a bridge to getting OFF narcotics are part of the problem, at least in my area. Approximately 30% of the beds in our NICU are currently taken up by babies of narcotic addicted moms. Thirty percent. OK, I'll climb off my soapbox now.

But on one thing we agree. Meth is certainly a huge problem, in both rural and urban America.

[CatOnLap]

Well, I am thinking of Eric Lamaze, one time cocaine addict, who just won show jumping GOLD at the Olympics.
All indications are that he has remained clean of drugs for a number of years now. But only after he was twice suspended from international competition and faced criminal proceedings. During the time he was actively using, he was also coaching and interacting with numbers of young people upon whom I daresay, he had considerable influence.

I was in favour of his two suspensions and believe he should have been banned from competition for 5 years, while undergoing regular random testing for drugs. Because we find that people who can stay clean for 5 years are less likely to relapse. My sense is that we must allow another chance after this proof of integrity though, in order to give hope to others on the same addiction pathway.

Meth may be a huge problem, but judging from the obesity stats in the USA, fast food, fat consumption and addiction to laziness is a much greater one affecting at least 30% of the populace. I also think addiction to money is even greater and the source for most of the social inequity in the world today. Perhaps we should ban all overeating couch potatoes or rich people...

[HSS]

I am glad to see that people have opened thier eyes to the facts, and are no longer blind hero worshiping this charactor.

I don't like being attacked more than anyone else, but someone had to speak up.

Whom he addicted, who he sold to, and whose life has been destroyed by him? We dont' know just yet, no doubt it will come out at some point.

I've heard major BNT's discussing the liberal drug use amongst the annointed. No wonder so many of them have such disfunctional personalities. As Trip did. And displayed. Some of his little "incidents" were the talk of the town- too bad I was not experienced enough with drug addicts to understand at the time. Sadly, I do now.

$4M is not a small amount of dealing- he was a major dealer. the FBI doesn't bother with small fry- they leave that to the local police.

Adolescents in particular are highly vulnerable to the sway of people they trust and see as role models.

Drug dealers have no conscience, don't care to control their behavior. They just want to sell their product and feed their cravings. Completely narcissic and self absorbed. Drug addicts NEVER see anything wrong with their addictions.

Yes, I am judgemental in that I believe in accepting personal responsibility for one's actions and blame.

No, I don't believe that every person earns or deserves forgiveness.

No, I did not hate Trip.

Yes, I am angry at the deceptions he practiced, which provided him cover and opportunity to spread death and destruction and suffering amongst people I call colleagues.

I am completel disgusted at the covering up of his erratic actions and activities, the protection provided by people who KNEW what he was up to- and repelled by the pitiful pretense that somehow because he was a minor celebrity (in a very minor sport) his actions and activities should be forgiven/forgotten/white washed/overlooked because he was a pleasant fellow (at times).

[nhwr]

I knew Trip (not well) for over 20 years. I clinic-ed with him in the mid 80s. I used him often as a judge when I was organizing horse shows in the 90s and I saw him frequently at shows around southern California. He was charming and fun, but always gave off a sense of something NQR. I found that life was always all about Trip when Trip was around. That was why I stopped clinicing with him. The instruction was great when it happened. But often the lessons were taken over by what Trip was up to. Eventually I figured I didn't need to tack my horse and pay for that. Whenever he judged for me, he insisted on being paid in cash, sort of a red flag for me. I figured he had a substance abuse issue.

It is hard for me to characterize his behavior as "a mistake". I think of mistakes as ordering red wine with fish or wearing white after labor day -not behavior that someone engages in for more than a decade. And you can't write it off as a result of his addiction. Not every addict become a major drug trafficker. Sorry, but I think what he did was wrong, very wrong and pretty much in line with his perception of life - it was all about Trip. I admire that he tried to make amends at the end. But it doesn't change the nature of his actions.

Still I liked Trip. He was interesting to be around, as people who are tragically flawed often are. I am not sure I would feel the same today, knowing everything he was involved with. Let's not make him out to be some sort of hero. He wasn't. And I while I know Trip would have been glad to see some people would still accept him after they found out the truth, he had enough class to have been uncomfortable the idea that what he did was heroic. Life just isn't that tidy. I suspect Trip understood better than most.

[slc2]

That's more similar to how I feel about it. While I recognize that some of them could potentially get better, even if only for a time, or even only to a certain degree, I don't view any of them as heroes, but I do think it is a good thing if they get into rehab and get better, even if that is an up and down or partial 'better'.

But I also don't get angry at them, that's like getting angry at a dog that bites - the most important thing is to not get bit, the next is to try and stop the dog from biting.

Nhwr, I think that 'all about Trip' characteristic is a part of a lot of addicts. I've heard some theories that people tend to not develop empathy, social skills or a sense of social responsibility after the point at which they become addicted. In 'Clean and Sober' Michael Keaton did a very good job or portraying that issue. I'm not even so sure 'it's all about Trip' is it, I think that's actually just how it looks when 'it's all about Trip making sure Trip gets his drugs'. Addiction always is very self-oriented.

[Cathbad]

HSS and Ajierene - I don't think you can 'get' someone addicted. The brain chemistry or sensitivity is already in place, and it's just a matter of time before that person stumbles onto the substance(s) that make that addiction click on... And addiction is a huge monkey on your back, to the point that I don't think people who have addictive personalities really at least in the early stages can 'choose' to fight it. It is THAT powerful. That's why it's called 'addiction,' not 'craving.'

And if you still want to 'blame' Trip, why aren't you angry at the person who got HIM addicted?

[Moderator 1]

The Chronicle just ran an obituary for Trip Harting in Sept. 26's Hunt Roster Issue.

It's certainly not off-limits to reference his history with drugs and/or the documentary that examined it in the context of general discussion, but this is a horse board, so the general drug/addiction talk is beyond our scope here. We've removed a few of the last posts that went off on a tangent unrelated to Trip's history to avoid any confusion.

Perhaps when and if anyone sees the documentary, a thread can be started in Off Course to discuss the movie, as it related to Trip's involvement in the horse industry.

Thanks,
Mod 1