Need suggestion- pony that "snatches" the reins

[woodstock]

Sale pony I am riding has this terrible, random habit of snatching the reins out of my hands by yanking his head down. Not sure how to train him out of this.
Tends to happen more at the canter, but tries to do it when I'm asking for the "stretchy" trot.

Asking him to come on the bit and relax through his back is a bit new to him- he was originally trained as a show hunter and ridden by children not so educated to "riding on the bit."

Needless to say, he is def. not steady on the bit yet-we're working on it!

So- what are some ideas to break this snatching? It is getting very old!

[mickeydoodle]

In the situations where you expect him to do it (if you can tell this) hook your thumb under the bucking strap on the saddle (put a strap on if needed) that way he hits the rein as a side rein, with no muscle input from you to make it a contest. A few weeks, being very consistent and most horses are discouraged from doing it.Also, lunge him in sidereins.

[Ambrey]

Would something like daisy reins/sidecheck work? If you set it loose enough, it doesn't do anything until they try the snatch and grab, then it's like they hit a brick wall. I put one on my pony when my kids ride (got the idea from daughter's riding school, they have a pony that does the same thing).

[woodstock]

Hmmm, I don't know....

Maybe I will try lunging to see if he does it when there is no rider involvement.

Anyone have a clue what is the root of this type of action?

mickydoodle- I have no idea when he is going to do it- there isn't really a warning or anything.

When he does it- if I'm quick enough to grab hold of the reins (hard to do when I'm trying to be soft!), I try to let him pull against himself and really push him up into the bridle by applying strong leg. Maybe this will correct itself over time and he gets more steady in the bridle?

[mickeydoodle]

The root cause is usually just a bad habit. It is a naughty trick, to try to avoid the contact.

If you do not know when it will happen, ride with one thumb under the strap all the time- preferably the outside rein. This not only will stop the rooting, but improves your contact and stabalizes the rein. Kyra K. is one who teaches this. She will use the free end of the stirrup leather if their is no bucking strap. She pulls it out from under the riders thigh, and has them hold it with the rein in the outside hand- thus no pulling from rider nor horse. She had quite a few riders do this at a USDF national symposium- even FEI riders.

[woodstock]

The root cause is usually just a bad habit. It is a naughty trick, to try to avoid the contact.

If you do not know when it will happen, ride with one thumb under the strap all the time- preferably the outside rein. This not only will stop the rooting, but improves your contact and stabalizes the rein. Kyra K. is one who teaches this. She will use the free end of the stirrup leather if their is no bucking strap. She pulls it out from under the riders thigh, and has them hold it with the rein in the outside hand- thus no pulling from rider nor horse. She had quite a few riders do this at a USDF national symposium- even FEI riders.

Cool idea! Thanks Mickey. I'll try it tomorrow when I go out there.

[rabicon]

My daughters pony use to do this to her, she is still in a western saddle because well I don't trust her in an english yet ;) but I told her to hold her hands right behind the horse and when he pulls just let go and let the horse catch the reins, believe me he will not beat out the horse of a western saddle. It took about 4-5 rides until he stopped.

[smithywess]

Hello Woodstock,
I havn't seen your pony but here's a guess.He's pulling as a response to heavy hands to alleviate a painful contact by grabbing the bit and pulling down.This is more than just a bad habit.Horses don't fight us without good reason.What would be the advantage,as you have suggested,of applying the brake and the accelerator together by holding a contact and applying more of your leg.This will make your pony pull even more and not without good reason.You have to retrain his mouth.You should learn how to induce relaxation of the lower jaw with a mellow mobilization of the tongue first in-hand,with a snaffle,and then from the saddle, at the halt, progressing slowly on to a walk and then a slow trot.Once the pony begins to trust the hand the problem will likely resolve.There are resources available to learn this skill which,if you're interested I'll give you,but you may have arrived at your own'fix'.
Good luck.

[092556]

I agree with mickeydoodle, it is a naughty trick. Most ponies are bullies by nature (I have 19), they do it because they can. Bridging your reins can help if you learn to push your hands down on the pony's withers as soon as the pony start to dive down, then he pulls against his withers and doesn't win the tug-a-war. Usually they will give up until another unsuspecting rider climbs aboard. Ponies can be dificult, that is why well schooled ponies are worth their weight in gold, sort of speak. Good luck

[saxony]

I had a pony that did that. It's very frustating as most children are just not physically strong enought to counteract it. I actually devised a system where I attached a small snap to a string and attached it to the bit. I then ran the string up the cheekpiece and through the browband and attached the other end of the string to the d ring of the saddle. I made the string just loose enough that he could have freedom to lower his head to the correct position but if he rooted he'd get caught in the mouth. It worked great, and he wouldn't try rooting anymore if the device was on. However, he was smart enough to know that if he was in a show and he didn't have it on he could root again. I think he did have some back issues that contributed to the habit so in the end when I couldn't get him comfortable under saddle I retired him.

[Ambrey]

I had a pony that did that. It's very frustating as most children are just not physically strong enought to counteract it. I actually devised a system where I attached a small snap to a string and attached it to the bit. I then ran the string up the cheekpiece and through the browband and attached the other end of the string to the d ring of the saddle. I made the string just loose enough that he could have freedom to lower his head to the correct position but if he rooted he'd get caught in the mouth. It worked great, and he wouldn't try rooting anymore if the device was on. However, he was smart enough to know that if he was in a show and he didn't have it on he could root again. I think he did have some back issues that contributed to the habit so in the end when I couldn't get him comfortable under saddle I retired him.

That is what daisy reins are! I have that exact device only made of nylon :)

And my pony (actually he's a horse, I stubbornly call him a pony and he's 1/2 welsh) is very smart and knows exactly what he can get away with and who he can get away with it for and when. Crazy stuff.

[slc2]

Please do not try to stop this with daisy reins, side reins, or by holding against a pommel strap.

None of these will resolve the issue. If he stops grabbing at the reins because he is forced not to, the problem will come out in another way. The problem is not making a connection with the reins plus not going forward off your leg.

When your horse snatches at the reins, push him forward - the sharper he grabs, the more firmly you push him forward. Do it every single time he snatches at the reins, every single time. Try establishing more of a connection with the reins during the entire ride, always asking the horse to reach for the bit. It will both stop the immediate problem and help to remedy the real root of the problem.

[saxony]

SLC, while you are absolutely correct that the daisy reins (didn't know they had a name!!)do not help stop the behavior, most little up-down riders would NOT be able to ride a pony as you describe. I would suspect that even if the OP were to stop the behavior for awhile this pony would be doing again as soon as it realized the little munchkin on it's back won't be able to stop it. It is frustrating habit and tough to fix as ponies are cunning little critters. With our pony, he would be fine for awhile if he was tuned up, but as soon as my daughter would get back on him and ride him for awhile, it was business as usual. We just decided that we weren't going to fix the problem long-term so we dealt with it with a tool and she learned a lot on him anyway - we just couldn't show him anymore. Other than that he was/is a great little pony:-)

[Moogles]

My mare (not a pony) did this for a while. All I did was focus on having an honest connection and it resolved overtime. She was sneaky because she would be light in the hand but not over her back 100% and thats when she would root. I know that for children it might be hard for them to work through this problem, but if an adult can help establish a good connection it would probably make it easier for the kid. Another rooting issue not related to contact is when the horse wants to scratch their face on thier legs. My horses are not allowed to scratch with bridles on. When they dive to scratch I walk them on or get a ground person to give them a rub.

[Thomas_1]

This is quite a common problem with children's ponies. (and IME with cobs!)

Quite simply the pony (and cob) is a clever opportunist whose hobbies include eating, grazing, feeding and dining out. Couple that with a novice or child rider who often isn't strong enough to stop it (and often doesn't notice the signs till its too late and the pony is on its way to thrusting it's neck forward to eat) and the animal will see riding out as a daily picnic.

Over time the rider often starts to keep the pony on a short rein in an attempt to stop them reaching down to graze or to pull and the pony quickly learns that if they can get hold of the bit and really snatch at the reins and do it quickly using their whole weight of neck and head, then there's little an unprepared small rider can do.

So then the pony starts to ensure he doesn't get hurt in the mouth and tries to push away from the pain by grabbing the bit and snatching the neck forward and dropping its head. So the root cause might be trying to eat or it might be problems in the mouth so check teeth and check your use of hands.

Over time though because the rider tries to pull the head up with reins the horse becomes more aware that it needs to really plunge it's head and neck forward in order to achieve its purpose: so either pain resistence or else grazing.

As the OP has described, I'm thinking its more pain resistence and discomfort in mouth and neck and I'm thinking this because it's sounding to me like this is happening in a schooling situation and only when asking for certain things. So I'm thinking in this instance it's bitting, bridling and rider's rein handling that needs attention. I'm thinking that I'd want to observe the rider in those situations and then to put on long reins and observe again and see if it's rider or pony.

But let's presume that the habit needs to be broken and the horse retrained. Daisy reins put on loosely play a valuable part if the rider is small and it breaks the habit and gives the small rider a chance to relax and the pony a break from being yanked in the mouth. A neck strap can also help the rider to maintain balance without reliance on reins.

To stop it though, quite simply though the rider needs to go right back to basics: Check teeth, bridling and bit position first and if that's o.k. Check rider's hand position and rein handling. Then once the aforementioned is clear to go, take the pony to the school and ride on a long rein so there's nothing to snatch and be attentive to the signal the pony gives and the VERY second it shows sign of relaxing to put its head down or tensing to snatch then keep it moving forward with legs and seat.

[goeslikestink]

not going to argue with thomas as hes totally corect in his opnion

[Zen and Horses]

I've got lesson horses that are fond of this also, so I couldn't say it's entirely ponies who are naughty. Sending the animal forward is helpful, especially with a tickle of the crop, so that the rider is not squirming around and kicking. What can also be very useful is to let loose the contact on one rein, so that when the pony dives, the rider keeps firm on one rein, and lets the equine yank it's own head to the side. Ideally the outside rein would be employed and the inside let loose, slipped, or dropped. That might not be the best in all scenarios depending upon which way the pony is dropping a shoulder, drifting, etc, so whether you hold the inside or outside rein might have more to do with what is going on at the exact moment. A really determined animal may also anticipate, so you may need to switch back and forth to keep a step ahead of them.

[woodstock]

Thank you all for your comments. Sorry, but I take offense at those of you who say that my "hard hands" are the reason for his snatching. Just not the case. If you read my comment above- I said it happens in stretch trot, as I am encouraging him to stretch through the back and relax into contact.
It also happens when I have very light contact. Can happen when reins are loose and we are trotting around.
I agree with those who say it is a "pony thing"; he found he could get away with it when the children were riding him and he hopes it will work with me.
And I'm sorry if those of you thought I would "snatch him in the mouth" and kick him forward. No kidding you took offense to such an idea- it would be idiotic to tell him stop with the mouth and go with a kick. That was not my intention. Rather, I intended that when he tried to root, I would push him forward with seat and leg into my hand.

Bit is fine. Teeth are fine (just done). And sorry, if anything my contact is too light (i.e. often guilty of reins too long, contact too soft).

Sorry- if I sound touchy- I've just never been accussed of having rough hands. Guess I put myself out there by asking for help and just need to develope thicker skin.

[Ambrey]

I agree with those who say it is a "pony thing"; he found he could get away with it when the children were riding him and he hopes it will work with me.

But I think some of the advice still is valuable. For example, I liked the idea to hold one rein and let him hit that.

He'll learn pretty quickly that he can't get away with it for you, but if you sell him on to a child he might pick it up again. Ponies are the best, and the worst ;)

[woodstock]

"He'll learn pretty quickly that he can't get away with it for you, but if you sell him on to a child he might pick it up again. Ponies are the best, and the worst "

Aubrey- you are right! And of course we are intending to sell him as a PC/eventing pony.

Hopefully we'll find a plucky little kid for him :)

[mishmash]

Hate to say it, but agree with SLC2-send him forward. My horse is a terrible rein snatcher-best deterent is everytime he tries it, I kick him.

[Thomas_1]

Thank you all for your comments. Sorry, but I take offense at those of you who say that my "hard hands" are the reason for his snatching. For goodness sakes, get over yourself! You came to a bulletin board asking what the root cause to a problem you have might be and you specifically described the circumstances and were told what the most likely root causes were and how to remedy the problem of having a spoilt horse.

Did anyone actually say you had "hard hands" ?? or is this just a case of "if the cap fits, then wear it"

Might I suggest you read ALL the posts again and slowly and carefully and for full understanding and comprehension and then learn to appreciate how a bad habit develops over time and how the rider contributes by unwitting acts of ignorance and innocence and then how it becomes an "inherited" problem as the horse passes to new ownership.

THEN as you now seem to have gone from ignorance to know it all, go figure and work out for yourself what's wrong.

I agree with those who say it is a "pony thing"; he found he could get away with it when the children were riding him and he hopes it will work with me. Didn't everyone suggest that???

And I'm sorry if those of you thought I would "snatch him in the mouth" and kick him forward. No kidding you took offense to such an idea- it would be idiotic to tell him stop with the mouth and go with a kick. That was not my intention. Did anyone actually tell you do do that?

I'm thinking though that you've a bug up your backside and really do just need to get over yourself. When you post for advice on a bulletin board, then you'll get a range of response.

Here you've got it ranging from qualified riding instructors and from novice riders with problems of their own. I'm sure you'll determine and decide for yourself what you prefer to heed. Either take it or leave it but there's absolutely no need to come back all up yourself and apologetic for so being!

If you'd said from the onset that you knew the cause all along and were just looking for endorsement and for placating comments which were along the lines of what you'd wanted to hear then it could potentially have saved posters the trouble.

Bit is fine. Teeth are fine (just done). And sorry, if anything my contact is too light (i.e. often guilty of reins too long, contact too soft). Don't be sorry. Just consider you've ruled that all out and see if you can now get rid of the bug up your backside!

I note from your recent postings that you've been telling all about changing the bit, putting on a flash and needing a martingale. You've also previously suggested you weren't balanced and secure in the saddle at canter. If this is all for the same pony then I'm thinking there's a heck of a lot of equipment change going on to control the head and mouth and I'm seriously thinking that IF it's all for this pony that you really do need some assistance to get this pony retrained because all that "stuff" is failing to address the issue and is more likely to contribute to it.

Sorry- if I sound touchy- No need to apologise.

I've just never been accussed of having rough hands. And as far as I can see from all the postings here, you still haven't. Indeed I'm wondering how the heck you ever learn if you can't understand! Again you are demonstrating a total failure to understand the escalation: root cause, bad habit, spoilt, problem and then how to address and remedially train.

Guess I put myself out there by asking for help and just need to develope thicker skin. Got to say that having noted you're employed in a profession where folks pay for advice that I'm gob-smacked you don't know that often the best and correct advice isn't necessarily what the recipient wants!

So perhaps you're right or else you need to learn to more fully and properly understand and if you're not sure what someone means or is suggesting or just don't like what they tell you, then ask or ignore rather than get all defensive and offensive.

[slc2]

mishmash, if you just kick the horse, the problem will continue. if you get the horse forward to a connection, all the time, the problem will stop. The fix IS to 'kick the horse' when he roots down, but that isn't the whole solution. The horse has to be forward off the leg. When you 'kick the horse' he needs to shoot forward 'like someone shot him out of a cannon'. Every time. Just tossing his head up because he got a hard one in the slats, doesn't get at the basic problem.
------------------------------- Basics-------------------------------------

Some poster on a bb may not have the right advice, but the mere suggestion that a problem riding a horse can't possibly have anything to do with one's riding is - it's why people don't move beyond first level, to be perfectly honest.

People can ALWAYS develop better hands, legs and seat. The people who win the Olympics have coaches yelling at them every day, 'sit up straight, go forward, more supple, get him straight'. This never, ever changes. In Charle's Harris's book about his 3 years at the Spanish Riding School, 99% of the notes he made are about how the rider sits on the horse and how to correctly use the aids. It's all about basic, basic things. It is never about anything else.

It is always all about how we ride. Horses don't go how they go because of their inner foal, how they were broke, etc. It's how we are riding them right there, in that moment.

It doesn't mean that either we suck and should be flogged if we have a problem. Nor does it mean the horse is an agent of Lucifer. It's just how things are. There's ALWAYS something a rider can do better.

It is always up to us how our horses go. They go the way they go because of how we ride them.

For some, everything, everything that goes wrong with riding, is due to 'hard hands'. They bring this philosophy into dressage, it doesn't come from dressage.

Basically, they see the reins as sort of an 'unnecessary evil'. Too, anything the horse does with his head and neck is seen as a result of 'hard hands'. I wish it were so simple.

Often they believe this because they haven't solved the essential problem of dressage - forming a connection and a 'circle of the aids'. Their horses aren't going forward and facing the bit, and they develop a kind of a compromise to trick their way thru riding dressage. And they think everyone else should, too.

Alot of people are 'allergic to contact', or establishing a connection with the horse's mouth via the reins, because they haven't figured out how to make a connection.

The more tentative they are with the reins, the more unsteady the contact with the horse's mouth gets, the less he goes forward, and the fussier and more unsteady he gets in the hand, AND the more convinced they get as to the evils of the bridle.

Alot of others are theoretically against contact, and believe a dressage horse (as well as all other horses) should be ridden basically with the reins hanging down.

The horse is expected to be balanced in the same position in which he grazes - a position he would never himself use if he needed to be balanced.

There, it becomes impossible to establish an honest, flexible connection with the horse's mouth, to create a 'circle of the aids', to recycle that energy, to balance the horse, to collect, to ride a half halt. Semblances of these things may be achieved by tricks, such as teaching the horse to slow down every time the rider gives a little check with the reins, but that isn't a half halt.

Others believe that regardless of type and conformation, all horses should be ridden with the lightest of contacts, at all phases of training. They mistake 'lightest of contact' for 'no energy coming to the bit, and trouble ahead'.

This can lead them to false methods, such as teaching the horse to keep his chin tucked in and the reins hanging down, by small jerks left and right on the reins. What that leads to is very crooked horses that can't be straightened out.

The main reason horses become fussy, toss their heads, etc, is that they aren't going forward to the bit.

That is the SAME reason a horse snatches down at the reins. Jerking the reins or preventing the horse form doing it by holding the reins against the saddle strap or other methods - makes it happen more.

With children, they have the same problem with ponies that adults have with horses, even more so -the problems children have with ponies - bucking, snatching at the reins, getting nappy, are fixed the same way as with adults and horses. The only question is does the child have the physical ability to do so, which they often don't have the strength in their legs, but a whip is a great equalizer.

I far, far prefer to have a child give pony a tap with the whip if he lacks the strength in his legs to get the little beast moving, I also far prefer having a bigger kid get on the pony now and again and keep him in the habit of being obedient to light signals.

If he hasn't the physical strength to get the pony moving, he shouldn't be riding it anyway. A tiny child on a pony he can't control is not safe. Maybe children to age 7 or 8 should have more supervision and more help from an instructor or ride on a longe line when they can't control their pony. Maybe that would be better.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The usual correct touted here for a fussy horse or one that snatches at the reins, is to drop the reins to the buckle. There's your solution.

That makes the problem worse, even if it successfully avoids the problem for the moment. There is a big difference between avoiding a problem and fixing a problem.

It ALSO is a reward for the behavior and tells the horse, 'good boy, snatch at the reins more! as soon as you snatch at the reins, I will drop them!'

The horse isn't facing the bit and isn't going forward. Dropping the reins doesn't fix this.

What makes the problem better, is fixing the problem.

There's a reason the old masters always said, 'forward and out of trouble'. It isn't supposed to be a Kentucky Derby, either. It means creating enough energy that there actually IS something to meet the bit with! It is that energy from the hind end that 'puts the horse on the bit', and BEFORE you can put the horse ON the bit, he has to be OUT TO that bit!

And how do you know you have enough energy? The horse stops snatching at the bit, stops fussing with his head, and just about every problem you had riding the horse, disappears.

There isn't much you can't fix by putting your leg on. No, I don't mean running around like a maniac off balance - that's why you also have a seat and reins too,, so the horse can be ridden with all the aids, not just one.

Of course tearing around at 100mph with the reins hanging down will eventually land you on your face in the dirt, probably with some part of your body busted. It isn't safe. But that's why dressage was invented, to balance horses by using seat, leg AND rein.

The old saying also is 'all the aids, all the time', riding a dressage horse is a constant interplay between leg, seat, rein, one cannot throw away 1/3 of the aids and be successful, one cannot create a circle of the aids without a connection with the horse's mouth.

It is balancing those 3 that is the whole problem and the whole solution.

This is something the old masters taught us and there is a good reason behind it. It works.

[Ambrey]

But this isn't a dressage horse that is going to be on the aids all the time. This is going to be a kids PC/eventing pony.

OP, I thought it was funny and coincidental that my daughter rode her favorite pony in a lesson yesterday without the daisy reins. She did her little snatching trick whenever she wanted to do something contrary to the cues. The instructor just told my daughter to get after her, and eventually she gave up.

Maybe the first step is figuring out when she is doing it, trying to figure out what is going on at that time that is causing it, and going from there? For example, does she do it (as cranky lesson pony) when she really doesn't want to do what's asked of her? Does she do it when there's grass nearby? Does she do it when you don't keep her on the aids? Are you doing something with your hands, going off balance in your seat, gripping with your calves, etc? Figuring out what triggers it might be a step to solving the issue.

[woodstock]

slc2- Thank you for your indepth comment; I appreciate the time you took. I have read it closely and will think about what you've suggested.

[slc2]

ambrey, no matter what type of horse or pony it is, no matter what someone thinks the 'real cause' is (foalhood trauma, erin brokovitch type disagreement with the lesson schedule, dislike of rider's attire or religious affiliation), going forward to a real connection is always the solution. kids deserve correct instruction just as much as adults do.

hey, prev poster, i'm fascinated by your equine law section. if you ever feel like discussing some aspects of equine law on off course forum, i'd really love to read about it.

[Ginger]

I ride a half-pony. He does the same thing, it's a pony trick. Agree with SLC - send him forward.

[enjoytheride]

Pushing him forward is the best fix, however I am teeny tiny and had some problems with my gelding doing that so while pushing forward I would hold the bucking strap with one hand that way I was covered on both ends. The more stable your seat is the less likely this is to happen and now when a horse snatches I don't even move.

When you do your stretchy work remember that he should still be on contact, just seeking out that contact by going long and low so you still need to be riding him into the bit and forward and not dropping the reins (he may have learned that loose reins means he gets to take a break).

What helped me was to immedietly kick into a canter when my horse snatched on loose reins. He quickly go the picture that snatching meant going faster and it helped me out while I worked on him actually having a stretchy trot and not just a plop.

[EqTrainer]

It is not a training problem. It is a discipline problem. There is a big difference between the two things and that seems to be a problem for a lot of people. Maybe we should start a thread on that?

Anyway. If the pony is for a *child* I would not whap it and send it forward. Reason? Pony bounding forward in correction will not work for most kids. They will get flipped backwards, a little bit, maybe more than a little bit and possibly lose control. Then the pony REALLY can do what it wants.

No, I would use one of the two time honored pony disciplines - the crop on the shoulder or the inside hand arret when the pony snatches down. You need to be clear to the pony that this is not ok and that requires discipline, preferably one a child will be able to back up once Popo understands that is not ok.

If it were a pony for an adult, I would instruct the rider to ride the pony with a much stronger core/elbows securely at the side, and when the pony snatches, let it whack its teeth on the bit. Few things are more satisfying as a rider than the feeling of a horse thinking it is about to unseat you and finding out that he is wrong today :lol: not to mention it teaches people a whole lot about their seat and middle body.

[slc2]

"It is not a training problem. It is a discipline problem. There is a big difference between the two things and that seems to be a problem for a lot of people. Maybe we should start a thread on that?"

Actually, I don't think it is a discipline problem at all, in a horse or pony.

That'd be alot of 'fun' to have a thread on that, and it probably would crash and burn pretty quick. I doubt anyone here would agree with anyone else on any given set of problems being either 'discipline' or 'training'. "Discipline" as a word often evokes extreme ideas of beating the snot out of the horse. I think of it more as being something the RIDER needs - that when he gives an aid, he gets a response and has an orderly, logical plan of how he will escalate each aid and how he will respond if it doesn't happen. That's more something the rider has to develop in himself.

"Anyway. If the pony is for a *child* I would not whap it and send it forward."

Neither would I, actually. I don't want the kid tumbling off either.

And I wouldn't want the pony to get an 'arret' in the teeth either. I would think that the kid would be the NEXT one to 'get one in the teeth' - usually the pony's mane. Either way, the infant would be on the floor.

I can understand "kids can't do that", but I can't understand "ponies are a different species, and it's ok to give them one in the teeth, because they're ponies". I would rather avoid that.

I realize they can be naughty and clever at times, I got a little girl like that at home. But I would prefer to try to stick, where possible, to correct training, even with a pony and kid - yeah, I know there are limits, I agree with that too. There is a point where I say 'come on, it's a teeny little kid and a pony, let's just do something that works'. I'm not really disagreeing with you at all, just saying I might really try to get a forward correction whenever I could.

I have seen a lot of kids, at pony club, doing dressage, jumping, cross country, even games, and they were able, most of the time, to work without making a LOT of kid-pony compromises, more because they just had the mindset that they wanted to do it that way, I think, than anything else.

As far as being 'discipline' or 'training', I think it's a pretty moot point. You can see just about everything as 'discipline' OR 'training', and discipline is a big part of training.

I don't believe, to be honest, that 'discipline' is given by giving the horse one in the teeth, and that 'training' is given with a leg aid. I don't believe that.

[EqTrainer]

Hunter kids all over jerk their ponies heads up when they snatch them down. I've not seen one overreact to it but of course they could. I just don't think you can expect a (an average) child to correct that one by sending the pony forward. Ponies ideally respond well to direct correction. They should not be so sensitive that they overreact to much of anything.

Having just gotten my little girl a new pony, and seeing her older pony jockey "remind" her with an inside arret (called so in dressage, in hunters it's just jerking their heads up, not so sophisticated to say the least) not to jerk her head down, it works.

If it is an adult, then they simply have allowed the pony to learn to unseat them. Fix the seat, fix the problem. That's fixing a problem thru training.. you continue to train, you do not directly address the issue. This is of course ideal. I don't think that it is mean when a rider (teaching I have seen this so many times) after years of having their horse jerk the reins out of their hands and/or unseat them, is cheering when they finally get taught how to NOT let that happen. The moment that people realize they really do have the power (literally and figuratively) to stop this, they get very happy. It's simply a fact that the horse will indeed whap his teeth on the bit the first time someone sits into him when he does it and it's not avoidable. I have never seen someone feel sorry for the horse at that point, perhaps after some contemplation about how many years they allowed him to do it they realize that they allowed it to happen and that it was, in a round about way, their fault that he ultimately whapped his teeth on the bit... but then again, maybe they should be blaming the piss poor instruction they apparently were getting, that no one told them how to stop it. Sorry for the run on sentence! Luckily for everyone involved, horses can take a joke (and training, and discipline) and I have never seen one who was worse for the experience.

If you need to directly address it as an issue that the pony already knows it should not do, then it's discipline. Yes, it would be nice if small children could be taught to use their seat from the get go but they are tiny (for example, my daughter weighs 34 lbs and can wear size 2 pants as capri's at 5 years old).. and we need their little mounts to not take advantage of that. A good pony, who was trained right, accepts discipline for what it knows it should not be doing.

If you have ever gotten on a well-trained *childrens* pony, a hunter pony or lesson pony, and tried to ride it as a dressage pony, you will find that the *best* ones are outraged. They have been trained to take their little riders around and allow them to learn to steer.. to post.. to canter.. to jump.. they are really amazing at how well they know their job. Some of the best ponies for small children that I have known really did not particularly like adults and only became difficult when asked by older children to do things differently (even if it was for the better, from a gymnastic perspective).

That's how I see it :)

[slc2]

So if they wouldn't be so sensitive that they'd up and chuck the kid in the face from a big ole one in the teeth, then a leg aid wouldn't be likely to cause the kid to roll off the back either, then would it. Why is the pony insensitive enough that a jerkk on the rein wouldn't be a problem but urging the pony forward would be a problem? I think it's more a choice and a tradition to correct it that way in ponies, than any necessity that it has to be corrected that way.

[EqTrainer]

It certainly could be tradition. But I do think that training childrens hunter or pleasure ponies is a bit different than training a childs dressage pony, or training a horse for any other discipline. It really needs to be simple, when small people are learning to just stay on board it seems to work best when corrections are one thing - one hand action or one leg action.

And of course a big part of how you might handle an issue like this is what the age and experience of the child the pony is intended for. But I am thinking here of small children, up to the age of 8 or 10.

You mentioned a tap with a whip. Traditionally, with a childs pony, a crop is carried if necessary and it is used for discipline if needed. The skill to put the reins in one hand and safely tap a pony forward while it is jerking the reins out of the childs hand would be a stretch for most kids I think, until much further in their career. Kids usually kick when their pony sucks back or needs to be more forward. Most good kids ponies are NOT hot off the leg, they are push ponies, very much so. The least chance of getting run away with, the better.

You can of course put a grazing rein on them - and I would, if necessary, in fact I thought I would be buying one - but then the issue is not fixed, it's just avoided.

Eventually I won't be leading the new pony while my daugher is mounted ;) and I'll get some pics of her going.. maybe some with her older jockey too, so you can see what lovely natural balance and carriage she has. So far her only issue has been exactly that - an occassional head jerk down, quickly corrected by her older rider, and I think she has stopped. It might also help that she has figured out that she gets to graze all night long here, albeit with a muzzle on :lol:

[Kaeleer]

FWIW, two of my TBs came off the track with this problem. One, Diceman, had no mouth. I could probably have used a twisted wire snaffle in his mouth and he'd not have respected it (so, naturally, I only ever rode him in a KK snaffle with a cavesson noseband, and developed legs that could crack nuts). He did it because, if he wanted to eat, he did. Simple. The other, Barney, has an incredibly soft and feeling mouth considering his racing history, but he hates to stand still, it's a real problem for him, and he snatches form tension.

I solved both their issues the same way. I could pretty much gauge when they were about to snatch (I think you can with ANY horse, by the way) and just before they did, I gave each of them a thump in the ribs with my calves. A good old "box", coupled with a strong "uh-UH!" voice aid.

After about three of those, all I had to do was move my legs off their sides and go "uh" and they'd not snatch. It's pretty much sorted now, although Barney will still occasionally snatch in the collecting ring at a big jumping show, through sheer tension.

I'm not going to mention the obvious things as Thomas has covered them, and I'm also not going to go into detail about how, when you do this, you need to make sure you don't catch the horse in the mouth if it goes forward.

Incidentally, as electric as they are to the legs, neither of my two leapt forward when I did that. They both realised it was a punishment because of something they'd done, rather than a leg aid. I found that quite interesting.