If you were instructing this crooked rider [throwing myself to the wolves]

[LarissaL]

How would you fix this rider's crookedness? Suggestions, visualizations, exercises? There are (obviously) a number of things wrong but I am working on symmetry at this point. Seem to collapse in on that right hip and hand and ride primarily off my knees. Prefer not to give tons of background to bias things, but I am intentionally looser in the tack than usual to try to release my regular tensions to "unlock" some issues and change a bit of the crookedness.

Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWrSo_LfP_U) - for some reason mp4 uploads in HIGH speed. Horse is def. rushy as I'm ignoring him to work on me, but seriously not running THIS fast!

[Sabine]

first of all- compliments on your courage to put yourself out there. Second- I think it's not horrible- your first canter shows some of your 'innate' tenseness but then you must have told yourself to let go- which you did. As you did- the effect was not as easily recognizable but after looking at it= I would say you're strong on the right lead and weak on the left- which throws the horse and yourself a bit off.
Work in front of mirrors with weights- you'll find a weaker left side.
get on machines in the gym to work your legs and instead of working both legs at the same weight- work the right leg alone and then the left leg- you'll see the difference in strength. It comes from your seat and goes down the leg. Work on strengthening that leg. Overall - you have a solid sense of balance and are seemingly aware of yourself- your issues to me are more strength related and can be fixed easily.


PS: learn to ride a nice trot-canter transition!!;)

[doublebridle]

Hmmm.
You have a lovely soft feeling and your horse is a sweet heart, although horse is not always through the back and is maybe a little on forehand at times.
You are not as crooked as you think, but I agree with earlier post, you are weaker on left side, earlier post thought it was in your leg, I think also in your left back muscles.
Tai Chi, Pilates, etc are all good excercises off of the horse.
Under saddle I think more concentration riding on precise lines, in shoulder fore position will build better connection and balance, for you and for horse.

[Sabine]

Hmmm.
You have a lovely soft feeling and your horse is a sweet heart, although horse is not always through the back and is maybe a little on forehand at times.
You are not as crooked as you think, but I agree with earlier post, you are weaker on left side, earlier post thought it was in your leg, I think also in your left back muscles.
Tai Chi, Pilates, etc are all good excercises off of the horse.
Under saddle I think more concentration riding on precise lines, in shoulder fore position will build better connection and balance, for you and for horse.

Agreed- but after having studied this problem on my own body- I have found that it is really hard to fix issues in the rider's pelvis- as the seat bones are touching - each one has a certain strength in it..have found from my own experience (same weakness issue) that strengthening the leg has helped my seat and seatbone strength- of course working with your upper body and overall improving 'left side' awareness is huge!!

[LarissaL]

Overall - you have a solid sense of balance

This made me laugh. I've had lessons from three people over the last year (dependent on which horse I was riding) and the last instructor kind of went, hmm, well, you have learned how to survive. And we both had a good laugh.

Fortunately for my sweet horse, I'm not riding much at the current time. When I do, we do hillwork for his stifles or general hacking, not much ring work since I got him in April. If I can find a place to lease him out to, I'll be hitting the gym all winter.

I'm really intrigued that I'm showing a left side weakness. From an old injury, the right side of my pelvis sits a little lower and is rotated backwards, therefore the right shoulder is a little dropped, and I also have scarring in the right ankle. Personally, when I'm in the saddle I can't tell WHERE the main source of crooked/weak/etc is, I just feel like I'm locked in this position.

Thanks for the input!! I can use all the ideas I can get :D

(ps, you didn't like my kick kick kick, lean lean, please canter transition?)

[mbm]

i think you look better than you think you do :)

i also think that if the horse were more active/forward you would have a much easier time sitting correctly (i don't see much rushing at all) . and the more active/forward the horse is the better everything will become.

it is very hard for a rider to look good on a horse that inst working correctly - especially if the horse is uneven (which of course most are)....

so my suggestion would be : just work on getting the horse more forward and pushing off the ground more actively.... i wouldn't sit to do this - i would post.... and only sit when the back is offered.

as for your body - i like to stretch.... i dont personally think strength has anything to do with riding (except for core and cardio) but the more general flexibility you have the better.

[Elegante E]

At the canter, you always lead with your inside shoulder, both directions. This suggests that you aren't connecting to your calves completely and are twisting/moving with the horse's shoulder and not the hind end. Your inside foot pointing out is part of the problem (both directions) as it takes off your knee and interrups your connection. Good news is that your seat look pretty good so some slight adjustments should give you an even better seat/connection.

Try to keep your toes pointing straight which will keep your calves on properly (you are cueing a lot with your inside heel for canter, try not too. It's good to have your calf on but don't use the inside spur). Practice getting your calves on, leg properly placed and starting your post with a hug so that your calf is on (not sure what your posting is like as you sat the trot mostly). Posting, even a few strides, without stirrups can help you feel where your calves are and if you're using them properly. Playing with sitting trot a bit will aslo. Improving your connection with your calves will help you feel the back end in the canter more.

Also, shorten your outside rein a tad so that you don't have to counter twist to keep the outside rein connection. Look up and around the turn, your upper body should stay open chested and twist slightly without collapsing, your inside shoulder will be behind your outside one and this should give you your upper body position. With this proper connection and position your outside heel should twist outward, away from the horse, to allow him to open his ribcage and bend properly.

Just spent the last two weeks watching my trainer work with a friend on this and it was amazing how getting the calves helped everything else fall into place. If you are properly connected, the horse will come round easily which also will tell you whether or not you are correct in your posting and seat in canter.

[slc2]

:)

From your description I was expecting to see someone sitting crossways on the saddle - you're just not really that bad off. Please do not worry so much!

In fact, you do most of the things most people do at that stage, and you appear to be trying to fix it. So I'm not worried about it.

It almost looks to me as if you 'try too hard', as if you're trying to push the horse forward by rhythmically pushing with your hips and shoulders, perhaps in an effort to 'follow the motion', you're just working too hard.

It also looks like your lower back and hip area might be weak and a little overly mobile. That probably sounds contradictory. It is good to be able to be loose and soft, but as you try to be loose and soft, it looks like you need a little more stomach muscle and lower back muscle. It's hard to tell for sure without getting a closer look.

You kind of twist your shoulders with every stride, it's most noticeable at the canter. I disagree that you lead with your inside shoulder, I actually think you twist it back and forth.

Alot of people do this. I think you can see hunter riders do this a great deal, at the posting trot and canter, and if not then, as part of maintaining a 2 point position with something of a 'brace', as they try to come back after a jump when the horse gets quick.

Oddly, I think this is due to stiffness, kind of a habitual stiffness in certain spots. If you could soften up your heel, and not try to press your heel down, that can help. It helps to concentrate on relaxing your ankles and calves, so that you are not 'bracing' in the stirrup. For some, their tightness in their shoulders or pelvis actually start from a tight lower leg. It kind of travels its way upward from there.

Are you wearing chaps? You might consider taking them off, and wearing something that's not too grippy.

Your horse is a very elegant, very obedient, very quiet looking horse. You and he or she seem to get along very, very well. To win in a bigger dressage class, I think you will have to get the horse more forward, and more supple. But it is so nice right now, and 'stage appropriate', it looks like.

[goeslikestink]

half the the time as its quite a common problem is the rider position is worng and the stirrups are at the wrong lenght or odd
read the link here as another poster has the same problem crooked riders make crooked horses http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=164976

[whitewolfe001]

My kudos also for putting yourself out there to be critiqued, very brave thing to do!

Crookedness is a problem for most everyone - everybody has a stronger/weaker side, as do the horses.

I think you and horse look like a lovely pair, and you are a nice soft rider. I would agree that strengthening your core would help - at the sitting trot I see a bit of abdominal/spinal floppiness, which is helping you sit tight to the saddle and go with the horse, but being stronger and quieter in your torso would create an even more quiet seat overall and also help you avoid collapsing.

Being lunged without stirrups and taking your legs off the saddle is a great way to become more centered. When balancing on your seatbones alone, it's a lot harder to be uneven! At the beginning of every ride, at walk I take my legs off the saddle, feeling my seatbones and trying to find my "center". If you don't have someone to lunge you, you can still take off the stirrups and hold the pommel with one hand as you practice lifting your legs away from the saddle.

Another exercise for a collapsing side is to take the arm on the weak side and ride around with your arm stretched way up above your head (to stretch out the side that wants to collapse on itself), make circles with your arm, point toward the tail, stretch it every which way. You can do a lot of "lungeing" type exercises like this on your own without anyone's help, and doing just a few minutes each ride can really help. Good job, and good luck!

[Carol O]

Lose your stirrups for a while and take some longe lessons if you can.

[Guyot]

Due to the result of your past injury, you are unable to sit square in the saddle. You said that your pelvis on the right is down and rotated. I would work with the help of a PT or chiropractor to find out if adjusting the length of your stirrups or how the stirrup bar is placed would allow you to sit more square in the saddle. The other position problems are all coming from your pelvis, the more you try to fix those the more sore and contorted you will feel.

The problem with riding issues, ie straightness, from an old injury are different then basic left/right weakness. Unless you have no desire to go past 1st level, to do the lateral movements and find straightness in the horse you will be very frustrated if you don't work to find a way to sit square. While your straightness issues do not appear to be horrible, it will be frustratingly hard for you to be able to do the most basic lateral movements. Your body will feel contorted and you will just be straight, very hard to maintain. You need to work out with someone who will keep your body in alignment while you strengthen yourself. (why I mentioned the PT as the person to work with...chiro will straighten you but not help you build the muscle to support that straightness. But a chiro can keep you straight if you are very body aware when working out, etc.)

From a training perspective lounge line lessons will help, its also much easier to see these straightening issues that you have from the outside of the circle. Good luck, these issues are possible to work through with the proper help, hard work, and both you and your horse will work better the straighter you sit!

[LarissaL]

Wow, thank you all again for taking the time to view the video and comment! It's much appreciated. I'm loving having new ideas about this issue, as it's been driving me NUTS!

Lose your stirrups for a while and take some longe lessons if you can.

Part of my frustration in dealing with this is that I'm BETTER without stirrups or bareback. Now, take away the reins and it's a different story :D I'd love to get some lunge lessons and will be really trying to if I can get this guy leased out for the winter (currently not enough time to do both!). (Also, where is this possible in MD?)

My substitute for lunge lessons has been to put myself in the round pen, tie up my reins (love this horse!) and ride with my hands on my hips, trying not to fall off one side. This is challenging my balance more than most other stuff, but still not a ton. I'm finding that what my latest instructor pointed out, that I've learned to SURVIVE, is quite the problem. I can ride crookedly and do it fairly competently. So taking away my equipment doesn't really FORCE me to change anything. Blah.

I like this idea though..
If you don't have someone to lunge you, you can still take off the stirrups and hold the pommel with one hand as you practice lifting your legs away from the saddle.

Definitely worth trying!

It also looks like your lower back and hip area might be weak and a little overly mobile.
at the sitting trot I see a bit of abdominal/spinal floppiness, which is helping you sit tight to the saddle and go with the horse, but being stronger and quieter in your torso would create an even more quiet seat overall and also help you avoid collapsing.

Ha! Floppy. Such a perfect description. I was thinking W-E-A-K, but floppy is the actual physical manifestation of it :lol: I do need tons more core strength. I guess this will be a primarily in-the-gym type of fix for me. I have seen lots of people recommend pilates, yoga (goes along with the flexibility another poster mentioned).. I'm more of an independent person, but I can hook up with a class or two if it'll help my riding!

You kind of twist your shoulders with every stride, it's most noticeable at the canter. I disagree that you lead with your inside shoulder, I actually think you twist it back and forth.

I wonder, if you watch me at the posting trot here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR5Z-W3T4wI) (easiest to see probably from 8:30 on), it is more exaggerated? The trot definitely shows my issue a little better. My left side looks like it sits a little in a chair seat, while my right is still behind the girth, and I think I can see that I post moreso through my left hip. And am very, very twisty in my down transitions!

This suggests that you aren't connecting to your calves completely and are twisting/moving with the horse's shoulder and not the hind end.

This is officially my favorite insightful post! Everyone's suggestions are great, but your visualizations really connected in my head. Not to say they will in the saddle, but my brain gets it :D

In the trot video above, you can probably see the asymmetry of my hips a bit better. Left one sits forward, pretty much regardless of direction, and right is usually twisted back. Do you feel that working on the calves and pointing toes forward will fix the twist in my hips? I have this picture in my head that my toes will be pointing forward, but still the left one ahead of the girth and the right behind.

Your horse is a very elegant, very obedient, very quiet looking horse. You and he or she seem to get along very, very well. To win in a bigger dressage class, I think you will have to get the horse more forward, and more supple. But it is so nice right now, and 'stage appropriate', it looks like.

Thank you for the comments on the horse. He's quite a lovable guy and a fun ride. I got him here on the Giveaways, as he was proving difficult and intimidating to riders who were trying him to buy. He's very well schooled, a little older and in need of a lameness exam this week just to make sure that hind end is 100%. We're not exactly competitors, or dressage horse&rider, just trying to get the basics together for a nice and proper ride :)

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

Yes, cute, sweet horse, and agree with others that your position isn't all that out of control.

Not knowing how aware you are what is going on structurally in your body -- have you had recent x-rays (for example by a chiro) done to know what your alignment really looks like? It might be quite revealing (as I found out myself :eek: . For example, my pelvis rotates forward on the right and causes a pretty noticiable left inclination of my spine...). Then, in addition to possible chiro work, try (yes, you've probably heard it a million times) yoga, especially a form of yoga that particularly focuses on alignment, like Anusara. It'll help you feel more "with the horse" -- even in any unintended fast movements, which should raise your confidence also. And your sheer ability to move different body parts separately.
And then eyes on the ground to help you while you just work on yourself. Your horse might be steady and quiet enough to do basically "self-lunging" exercises, in which you take the reins in one hand, use the other one to intermittently pull yourself in the correct position by holding the saddle, taking both legs away from the saddle, then inner-spiral your legs and move them backwards underneath you etc. Good luck! :)

[PiaffeDreams]

I agree with the others here, you aren't that bad. I've had BAD crookedness issues due to an SI injury. It can get fixed. Its work and you'll always have to stay on top of it, but it can be done.

First, check out your alignment with a chiropractor or PT as suggested. I used a chiro and it made a world of difference. Then yes, yoga or pilates. I do pilates and found yoga didn't do so much for me, but have had clients get great results with yoga.

As to your riding on the horse: Your right hand also tends to be low, and "backwards" in its action. Think of turning your right hand so that the thumb is again on top as it looks like your fingernails turn down to the horse's withers at times. This blocks him from stepping up and under on the right as well and may contribute to not giving you any energy from which to propel your right side up and under yourself. Having the palms turning down to the withers also draws your shoulders into a rounded position and away from each other. You don't "slouch", but I feel you could be more open in your chest than you are which would help you find your core muscles.

Lastly, be sure you are not making you rider adjustments in order to "help" your horse. I also think as cute and sweet as he is, he could be more in front of your leg. Use your aids without un-positioning yourself and then follow up either with a tap from the whip or a bump/kick with a flat calf heel down. Insist that he step up to your hand a bit more without you compensating for him.

You look like a good pair and he a nice horse. Yes, a little straighter, a little sharper to your aids, a little more assertion in your position... but you're not far away from it.

[Sannois]

This made me laugh. I've had lessons from three people over the last year (dependent on which horse I was riding) and the last instructor kind of went, hmm, well, you have learned how to survive. And we both had a good laugh.

Fortunately for my sweet horse, I'm not riding much at the current time. When I do, we do hillwork for his stifles or general hacking, not much ring work since I got him in April. If I can find a place to lease him out to, I'll be hitting the gym all winter.

I'm really intrigued that I'm showing a left side weakness. From an old injury, the right side of my pelvis sits a little lower and is rotated backwards, therefore the right shoulder is a little dropped, and I also have scarring in the right ankle. Personally, when I'm in the saddle I can't tell WHERE the main source of crooked/weak/etc is, I just feel like I'm locked in this position.

Thanks for the input!! I can use all the ideas I can get :D

(ps, you didn't like my kick kick kick, lean lean, please canter transition?)
Your kick kick kick lean please canter depart, reminds me of my old Hunter jumper days.
I agree you have a lovely sooft contact with your darling willing horse.
My eyes are crappy, But I did not see all that much to pick apart.
The shoulder I did notice.
I like the way the two of you look.
;)

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I'm going to come from a slightly different perspective... You mentioned you ride better without stirrups or even bareback... I do not like the way this saddle sits you, i would prefer to see you be able to get your heel under your hip, which is probably where your leg naturally falls when riding without stirrups or bareback...

I too am a crooked rider. So much so that i have had to ride quite often with my right stirrup a hole shorter than the left, and its worse in a more forward flapped saddle, ie, when i'm riding hunters. I did have this issue in my dressage saddle, that was when i discovered i bought my saddle from another crooked rider who had actually "molded" that saddle to her crookedness and my body fell right into that position... I purchased a new saddle that has a different type of seat which doesnt "remember" the body position and i have been able to fix most of the crookedness in it. Its not perfect still, a work in progress, but if i can keep my heel under me more and really think about that seat bone/hip alignment, rolling my knees inwards without gripping, better calf connection, toes forward, etc... I stay straighter.

In my jumping saddle. Hang it up, the minute my legs need to go shorter and my heel comes slightly in front of me, thats it, i'm crooked again.

But just my two cents, maybe try a different saddle, it might be something as simple as finding one with the stirrup bars slightly further back, or a straighter flap that doesnt come so far forward, hard to say until you try some. I'm sure chiropractor would help as well, and strengthening... But just speaking from my own experience. :)

[Ambrey]

Just a question- have you tried a chiropractor? I'm still working on my own crookedness (I'm about to go butlerfamily's way and shorten one stirrup if I can't figure it out soon!) but the chiropractor has helped quite a bit, especially with my upper body.

She also suggested yoga to stretch the side that is spasming, causing the collapse.

[keana]

And kudos also for putting yourself out there to be critiqued!

I'm really happy people where so nice to you, I'm thinking of putting myself out there to, of course I will not get as good of feed back but I hope it's not totally nasty lol!

I got this in a E-mail and thought you might enjoy reading it not sure if it will be of any help or not.

From: Jane Savoie
Subject: 3 Simple Tips to Help You Sit Straight and Square


Can you tell if you're sitting straight and
square in the saddle? Or are you collapsing
at your waist and sitting crookedly?

Ask a ground person to stand behind you.
1. Are your shoulders level (i.e. the same
height)?
2. Is your seat in the center of the saddle
so that each seatbone is the same distance
from the middle of the saddle?

If your shoulders aren't level, you're
collapsed at your waist, and your seat
isn't in the middle of the saddle.

Here are 3 simple tips to help you sit
straight and square:

Let's say you've collapsed your left side,
your left shoulder is lower, and your seat
is off to the right.

1. Bring your right seat bone over and
place it on top of an imaginary line that
runs down the center of the saddle from the
pommel to the cantle.

2. Stretch your left arm straight up so it
passes by your ear and your fingers are
pointed straight toward the sky.

3. Now to keep yourself straight and
stretching tall, pretend you have two sticks
of equal length between your last rib and
your waistband. If you collapse again,
you'll get jabbed in the ribs by the stick
on the left side. And the stick on the right
side will end up on the ground.


Have fun!
Jane

P.S. If you're only getting these tips and
would like to also get my free newsletter with
more tips and training articles, sign up at
www.janesavoie.com. Be sure to do the
double opt-in in order to get added to the list.


1174 Hill St ext.
Berlin, VT
05602
US


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[LarissaL]

Woo, lots of love for chiropractors! I went to one for a few months this spring, got a set of xrays while I was there. The only permanent damage I have in my hips/back/shoulders is the offset and rotation in my pelvis. My spine is completely straight, no issues in my shoulders. So most of my issue is muscle control over my alignment. The adjustments didn't really help me, and chiro agreed.

I've also done physical therapy, which I much preferred. Our new insurance carrier doesn't cover it anymore but I have some exercises I can do at home. I have lots of shoulder rolls and extensions with a resistance band and had thought of trying that balance ball you sit on, stretch on, etc.

I'm glad those therapists help some people, but I don't think I'm one of them.

I really think I agree with everyone who says it's strength. Thinking back, I was riding within 4 weeks of breaking my pelvis so I think the muscles really never had a chance to disappear. Everything that had kept me straight(er) before was still there and in working order. Over the last few years, reduced riding, increased commuter driving and work on the computer combined to kill any resemblance to a real rider :winkgrin:

I watched a lady doing Pilates in the gym the other day and it looks terrifying but like the right kind of exercises. She had some cuh-razy machine tied to her feet, with her legs up in the air and moving them around would move her body on a slidey thing. A Google search tells me this is a Reformer (nice name) - that devil machine goes into action at about 2:30/2:45 in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RksV46mwFME). Eek.

Lastly, be sure you are not making you rider adjustments in order to "help" your horse. I also think as cute and sweet as he is, he could be more in front of your leg. Use your aids without un-positioning yourself and then follow up either with a tap from the whip or a bump/kick with a flat calf heel down. Insist that he step up to your hand a bit more without you compensating for him.

Maybe subconsciously I'm working overtime to "help" him. Consciously, I am trying to ignore him and just FEEL how making changes alters my straightness. Like, back to riding beginner lesson horses and just figuring out what it feels like to have my heels down or my hands in a crest release. I guess we're far enough along now that I'm interconnected with the horse and can't necessarily just see him like that :lol: Drat, it will require doing two things at once.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

Hehe. I haven't tried Pilates, only Yoga, but you'll be surprised how little it takes to make a difference. :D Just be sure to get started with a *good* instructor. Much damage can be done by doing these things wrong.

[mickeydoodle]

I think you ride very well. We all have a few crooked-ness areas. One BNT pointed out that no one was symmetric, and the horse can deal with this quite well. She had a video of a European dressage rider who had a very high above knee amputation (hip level almost) on one side and a high upper arm amputation on the other. He was riding first level quite well, the horse was forward and engaged.

I think you can stop worrying so much about you, and get the horse in gear. They are never straight themselves unless we train it. I think he needs to be more forward in all gaits, this will improve his transitions and your sitting, his bending, and your feeling of uneveness. Once he is more on the bit and forward, everything will feel better- you can be more crooked than Quasimodo and an engaged horse in self carriage will feel great, will turn well, will change gears well.

[cyberbay]

Well, I'm in the camp of 'you don't look as bad as you think.' In the second video, that's when the collapse to the right was evident, but it's not horrible. And, yes! every living creature is always a little crooked...

Some ideas for in the saddle:
-make sure your right hip/seat bone is sitting across from the left one. That may mean hiking your right leg fwd from the waist/hip bone area. When riding to the right, make sure that that seat bone is 'rolled' fwd of the other through your turns, bends, etc., and not dragging behind you .

-horses are crooked, too, and I bet some of your crookedness is feeding his, which is then feeding yours. Most horses travel that same way, with tightness on the right side. (That's to make you feel better about your not very big problem!)

Out of the saddle:
-in your bare or stocking feet, stand on any regular, repeating tile pattern, like you might find in your kitchen or bathroom, or wherever. Position your navel over one line, and then position your legs identically to each other, putting them the same distance apart you would feel when seated in the saddle, and same distance from navel, using the tile pattern as your ruler. Or, you can draw lines on the floor Then mimic the posting motion, and feel if the up/down engages the muscles identically in each leg. Try to be 'identical' in each leg.
-Also, while doing this exercise, note if your navel is pointing directly fwd. If not, move yourself around to get it there.
-stretching is great, but no progress will be made if the muscles in the key areas are chronically tight. They need a good massage in order to let go (after which stretching will then be very valuable), which fortunately you can do a lot of yourself. This includes your waist and rib areas, around your hips, and all of the thigh muscles. Your muscling is going to reflect your crookedness, so those muscles have to 'let go' and others have to begin doing their intended job.
-when seated, cross your legs the opposite of your habitual way (and be sure to relax into the stance, not brace against it). This might emphasize your crookedness to you, and it will give those tight right muscles a chance to stretch downward.

Your horse looks really nice. One thing maybe is to carry your hands higher -- on line with your waistband, as a guide -- and shorter your reins correspondingly. It will help your alignment, which helps your balance, and will take any subtle strains off your torso/hips to keep you in balance.