So did Satan himself design this bit, or just one of his lackeys?

[sublimequine]

http://www.grissombits.com/images/Large/5-ring-bit-260-261-262.jpg

Umm.. uhh...

... holy $@*&! :eek:

My brain hurts.

..Discuss?:uhoh:

[talkofthetown]

So that's a uh, 5 ring elevator??

Jeez.

Seriously though, is that a mule bit?

[Eventer13]

None of their "standard" bits look too standard, either. And while I might be able to forgive that they are all shanked, since that seems to be all TWHs go in, there is nothing but chain or wire mouthpieces.

[Coobie]

Ouch!!!!!!! Can you imaging the damage that bit would do in the wrong hands! To think the "Ball Bit" was controversial. I think the ball bit is known as the waterford now. I have very, very soft quiet hands and I would NEVER use that bit!
As my 4 yr old son says Oucheymama!

[hedmbl]

:eek::eek::eek:

and here I thought I'd seen every contraption masquerading as a bit that existed...

[Simkie]

It's a walking horse bit.

At least it doesn't have a bicycle chain mouthpiece. :no:

[eyesontheground]

I have seen so much worse... (not that it makes it any better)

two words for you...bicycle chain

I have had a friend (in a non-english discipline) tell me it is ok to use a harsher bit because the horses were "backed off the bit" instead of being on the bit....uh no (although my friend's bit collection doesn't actually include anything nearly that bad...they were defending the discipline as a whole...which i thought was ignorant...so i told them so)

ETA Simkie and i are on the same track

[jumpingpercheron]

:eek: Maybe that's meant for some weird fetish stuff for humans? :lol:

[Eyemadonkee]

minus the 5 rings, that bit isn't all that different than this one: http://www.mikmar.com/bit-pages/Watson-snaffle.html

either way, not something i want in my horse's mouth!

[Cayusepapoose]

Is that pronounced "gruesome bits"? Good lord.

[Woodland]

And at $29.95 it's affordable torture too!:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Holy yank me crank me head set or die Batman! :no:

[LuvMyNSH]

I have seen so much worse... (not that it makes it any better)

two words for you...bicycle chain

I have had a friend (in a non-english discipline) tell me it is ok to use a harsher bit because the horses were "backed off the bit" instead of being on the bit....uh no

And I thought I was the only one to get hit with that line of BS. :lol:

Some of the TWH bits are interesting. It makes it so much "better" that the show horses are usually ridden on contact.

[PasturePuff]

As sad as I am to say this. My mare came to me from a top barn with a custom made double twisted wire pelham. Poor thing has the scars in her mouth to prove it.

I ride her in a loose ring french link! And I don't just mean on the flat... jumping...cross country...hunter paces. She can be a beast when she wants to run, but she is a good girl. ANd as the previous owners found out... putting a harsher bit in her mouth only makes her worse.

Those bits just seem cruel to me...

[sublimequine]

I have seen so much worse... (not that it makes it any better)

two words for you...bicycle chain

I have had a friend (in a non-english discipline) tell me it is ok to use a harsher bit because the horses were "backed off the bit" instead of being on the bit....uh no (although my friend's bit collection doesn't actually include anything nearly that bad...they were defending the discipline as a whole...which i thought was ignorant...so i told them so)

ETA Simkie and i are on the same track

Take the bit in the first post.. put a double twisted wire on it. Yep, it comes with that "option" if you'd like.

I don't know of ANY bits worse than that. Mannnnnn. :no:

[Woodsperson]

the Mikmar may look like the bit in the OP, but it is very different. It is supposed to spread the pressure over a wider area. My very particular horse who prefers a french link snaffle liked it.

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Oh


My


GOD!!!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek:

[Anawazor]

Oh, thanks sublimequine!
I've been bit shopping and you've just solved my problems :::shudder:::
I think my horse would strike me down if I even showed him that bit!

[Ghazzu]

minus the 5 rings, that bit isn't all that different than this one: http://www.mikmar.com/bit-pages/Watson-snaffle.html

either way, not something i want in my horse's mouth!

The size of the chain links is significantly different between the two.

[J Swan]

Ghazzu - on the Mikmar one - it doesn't seem that it would be that much different than a Waterford - at least at first glance. Except the Waterford is round... but both seem to distribute pressure evenly - just in different ways.

On the TWH bit in the first post..... uh... um... well, they say the bit is only as harsh as the hands or some such thing. But I'm afraid there comes a point where that's simply not true.

I'm afraid I've just never been able to understand the extremes in the TWH world.

[magnolia73]

All I can say is that there are probably many horses that would just go up in a bit like that.

[firstimpressioncounts]

:eek:

If I even manage to put it on my TB in the first place, he would somehow poke his own eye out :lol:

There are some scary crazy bits out there....:no:

[DMK]

It's a walking horse bit.

At least it doesn't have a bicycle chain mouthpiece. :no:

Give 'em a week, I'm sure they will update the website!

[gieriscm]

Maybe it's a stupid question, so here goes... what, exactly, is the point of such a bit? I mean, if I put one of those into my horse's mouth when I rode, at best I'd never catch him again after he bucked me off, and at worst he'd kill me in the process.

Anyone?

[deltawave]

Looks like a sex toy of some sort. :eek: :dead:

[Ambrey]

Rope mouthpiece? My horse would love that! He'd chew on the rope and entertain himself for hours trying to get the 12" shank in his mouth.

People don't actually put reins on these things and ride them, do they?

[twofatponies]

Geez. This is for headsetting? Sort of "third world" if you ask me (reminds me of pictures of horses in India and Morocco and such with ginormous bits and flecks of blood in the froth around their mouths.)

[Ambrey]

Geez. This is for headsetting? Sort of "third world" if you ask me (reminds me of pictures of horses in India and Morocco and such with ginormous bits and flecks of blood in the froth around their mouths.)

Is that what it's for? Headsetting?

[Auventera Two]

Sure they do! Gotta a pic of one at the top of this page on my site:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/lick.html

Before Avalon pulled all their walking horse photos, there were hundreds of some really horrifying, closeup, high resolution pictures. In one photo there was actually a trickle of blood running down a horse's lip. Could have been from biting his lip? Could have been from a chain in his mouth. Since bits are not regulated at the Celebration show, who knows what it was from.

I remember one photo of shanks that looked to be at least 12" long, and they were made up of a pattern of "Z" shapes. The reins were on the bottom "Z" and the big ole fat man was hunched over laying all his weight on the reins. The horse's eyes were rolled over white and his breastcollar was so tight that rolls of muscle were actually squeezed out over top of the breastcollar. Real beautiful picture, and the horse went on to win the class! :D

[Riva]

actually, the mouthpiece on the mikmar is very kind. it is smooth rolled and made of sweet iron, which most horses love. All it really does is spread the pressure across the tongue and the linkage makes it like a french link. I have that mouth piece on a three-ring and the horses I've used it on all loved it.

The bit in the OP...that thing had to be made by Satan. I can't image ever even showing that thing to my horse, let alone putting it on him. He'd probably try to kill me.

[Auventera Two]

Geez. This is for headsetting? Sort of "third world" if you ask me (reminds me of pictures of horses in India and Morocco and such with ginormous bits and flecks of blood in the froth around their mouths.)

That's sort of what I was thinking too. Gee, haven't we evolved more than this in the United States? Apparently some people have not. :rolleyes:

[Nun Ya]

Sure they do! Gotta a pic of one at the top of this page on my site:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/lick.html

Before Avalon pulled all their walking horse photos, there were hundreds of some really horrifying, closeup, high resolution pictures. In one photo there was actually a trickle of blood running down a horse's lip. Could have been from biting his lip? Could have been from a chain in his mouth. Since bits are not regulated at the Celebration show, who knows what it was from.

I remember one photo of shanks that looked to be at least 12" long, and they were made up of a pattern of "Z" shapes. The reins were on the bottom "Z" and the big ole fat man was hunched over laying all his weight on the reins. The horse's eyes were rolled over white and his breastcollar was so tight that rolls of muscle were actually squeezed out over top of the breastcollar. Real beautiful picture, and the horse went on to win the class! :D


Why don't you find that picture and show it to us????

[chai]

Auventera Two, that horse's eye in the picture says it all. Cruelty, cruelty, cruelty.

[johnnysauntie]

holy cats. what IS this?

http://www.grissombits.com/images/custom/g1l.jpg

[Nun Ya]

These bits and the way they are being used looks a whole lot worse to me. I think
this is the work of the devil.

http://horsesforlife.com/RollkurPictogram

Look at each picture, how the horses chin is yanked back to it's chest, their eyes all have the whites showing because they are trying to see where they are going and trying to look up. They have their mouth pulled open by not one bit in their mouth but 2! and 2 sets of reins. You tell me this doesn't look awful??

[rugbygirl]

FHOTD had a really good post about TWH. About how they must pretty much all have sainted temperaments and the most willing personalities of any breed, because they seemed the most likely to have moron owners.

Just imagine, if you will, putting that bit in the mouth of an Arabian or TB. My Arabian would rear over backwards if I even TWITCHED that thing...the TB would more likely push on it and buck me into next week.

The one TWH I have ever ridden would probaby sigh and walk on.

What wins TWH "Big Lick" classes is sick. Padded horses at two, cranked into bits like that (usually on a double bridle), riders sitting on their back pockets crashing into the horse's kidneys...:(

[Nun Ya]

holy cats. what IS this?

http://www.grissombits.com/images/custom/g1l.jpg

I am not sure what that is but it is NOT a walking horse bit.

[twofatponies]

Is that what it's for? Headsetting?

I can't imagine what else. It's not like they need to stop a lot in the ring and the horses are hard to stop. Or maybe they are? I figured it gets the head way up and sucked back?

[Nun Ya]

FHOTD had a really good post about TWH. About how they must pretty much all have sainted temperaments and the most willing personalities of any breed, because they seemed the most likely to have moron owners.

Just imagine, if you will, putting that bit in the mouth of an Arabian or TB. My Arabian would rear over backwards if I even TWITCHED that thing...the TB would more likely push on it and buck me into next week.

The one TWH I have ever ridden would probaby sigh and walk on.

What wins TWH "Big Lick" classes is sick. Padded horses at two, cranked into bits like that (usually on a double bridle), riders sitting on their back pockets crashing into the horse's kidneys...:(

That is such a nobel thought about how your horses would react but don't be so sure, the bits are only as bad as the hands who guide them. Bad hands can make ANY bit a tourture bit. No TWH's are ever ridden in "double bridles". You must be reffering to something else. Try again.

[Auventera Two]

Why don't you find that picture and show it to us????

I would love to but that was what, 3 years ago? The photographer has pulled all those photos down, and the ones that are still up you have to have an account with password to log into. Being that her photos are copyrighted, you can't download from her site so when she pulls them down, they're gone.

[Auventera Two]

Auventera Two, that horse's eye in the picture says it all. Cruelty, cruelty, cruelty.

And that's nothing. Avalon had photos that were FAR worse being that she's a pro photographer and was up close and personal - ringside.

[rugbygirl]

No TWH's are ever ridden in "double bridles". You must be reffering to something else. Try again.

They are in saddleseat classes, maybe not in breed shows.

[Nun Ya]

I can't imagine what else. It's not like they need to stop a lot in the ring and the horses are hard to stop. Or maybe they are? I figured it gets the head way up and sucked back?

They are used for the way they get the horse to carry their head, and no the horses are not hard to stop they mostly listen and respond to voice. You keep contact on the bits only to avoid the reins from flopping. I have never had a horse who needed the long shanks but I have ridden other peoples horses who did.

[Ambrey]

I remember one photo of shanks that looked to be at least 12" long, and they were made up of a pattern of "Z" shapes. The reins were on the bottom "Z" and the big ole fat man was hunched over laying all his weight on the reins. The horse's eyes were rolled over white and his breastcollar was so tight that rolls of muscle were actually squeezed out over top of the breastcollar. Real beautiful picture, and the horse went on to win the class! :D

So they need those shanks to keep the horses from flinging their heads around due to the unnatural way they are being forced to move?

[Nun Ya]

I would love to but that was what, 3 years ago? The photographer has pulled all those photos down, and the ones that are still up you have to have an account with password to log into. Being that her photos are copyrighted, you can't download from her site so when she pulls them down, they're gone.

Well it is not like they haven't had a horse show since then now is it?? And you were able to access the website before why not now? Is that the only photographer that takes pictures?
You do know there has been a Celebration every year and they re post new pictures every year.

[Nun Ya]

So they need those shanks to keep the horses from flinging their heads around due to the unnatural way they are being forced to move?


WRONG- guess again. I am amazed at how much you seem to "know" about all this considering the fact you have............

NEVER rode a padded TWH

NEVER been to a padded barn

NEVER attended a TWH show

NEVER attended the CELEBRATION.

NEVER done anything but harp on and on about things you read or "learned" on the internet.

Just amazing

[Nun Ya]

They are in saddleseat classes, maybe not in breed shows.

Again TWH are shown is the saddle seat fashion but they are and have NEVER been shown in a double bridle.

You must have seen photo's of Saddlebreds, Morgans, Arabians or whatever else may be shown in a double bridle. But I can assure you that TWH's are not one of them.

[Ambrey]

Me? I made one comment.

When you watch those videos, it doesn't look unnatural to you? Seriously?

Did you see the photos on AV2's site? With the stills of the hoof/pasterns hyperextending?

[Wellspotted]

Well, what about these?

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?PGGUID=126d5cc2-feef-4368-b020-5d761d4a97bd

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?PGGUID=30e07571-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5
(interesting description provided)

http://www.sstack.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=10639&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=4&iSubCat=631&iProductID=10639

[Coobie]

Well, what about these?

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?PGGUID=126d5cc2-feef-4368-b020-5d761d4a97bd



HOLY SH*T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ChocoMare]

Well, what about these?

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?PGGUID=126d5cc2-feef-4368-b020-5d761d4a97bd

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?PGGUID=30e07571-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5
(interesting description provided)

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?PGGUID=3f63dab6-0f3b-4726-87fa-5247542d0172

No matter the breed of horse someone chooses to bit up with these things, they're all the same: instruments of torture. You put that first one in my draft's mouth and you'll instantly know the power of 2,000 pounds of horse :mad:

Yes, any bit can become bad in bad hands BUT! these are torture from the get-go...then add in bad hands and I shudder to think about it. :cry:

[trubandloki]

Again TWH are shown is the saddle seat fashion but they are and have NEVER been shown in a double bridle.


Never is a very strong word. They may not be shown in a double bridle at breed shows but I highly doubt you can factually say that no one as ever shown on in a double bridle some place else so you might not want to use such strong words as NEVER if you want to be credible.

[sublimequine]

That is such a nobel thought about how your horses would react but don't be so sure, the bits are only as bad as the hands who guide them. Bad hands can make ANY bit a tourture bit. No TWH's are ever ridden in "double bridles". You must be reffering to something else. Try again.

Sorry, but when it comes to the bit in the first post, that's a huge load of crock.

Can you honestly tell me you would put that bit on your horses, with the reins on the bottom ring, and as long as you kept a light hand, that's a-okay?

NO WAY JOSE! :no: :no: :no:

And don't even try and make this into a stab at walkers or gaited horses, folks. I found that bit on google when I was looking at elevator bits. I didn't even realize it was a walking horse bit until some of you folks mentioned it.

Bad bits are bad bits, disciplines don't make any difference! :eek:

[Auventera Two]

Well it is not like they haven't had a horse show since then now is it?? And you were able to access the website before why not now? Is that the only photographer that takes pictures?
You do know there has been a Celebration every year and they re post new pictures every year.

Read for comprehension girlfriend. ;) The site has been locked down since then. You now need a user ID and password to log in and view the eproofs.

And yes, there are other photographers but I've never found any that publicly post their eproofs the way that photographer did. Or if there are proofs, they are poor quality, or the thumbs are too small to be able to see much.

[Ambrey]

And yes, there are other photographers but I've never found any that publicly post their eproofs the way that photographer did. Or if there are proofs, they are poor quality, or the thumbs are too small to be able to see much.

Weird, photographers of most disciplines love to advertise their work through eproofs!

[Sdhaurmsmom]

Oh, thanks sublimequine!
I've been bit shopping and you've just solved my problems :::shudder:::
I think my horse would strike me down if I even showed him that bit!

Or, God itself, hopefully, would!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[dbadaro]

Who thinks of these kinds of torture devices??? :mad:

[sublimequine]

Or, God itself, hopefully, would!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Well if the bit's made my Satan you DO have a very good chance of being struck down if you use it, right?! :lol:

[JCS]

I don't understand how this kind of thing is even legal. At what point is it considered animal abuse or cruelty?

How could someone who "loves" their horses put something like that into their mouths? And if you DON'T love the horses, what's the point? Find some other hobby! Cripes!

[europa]

Just viewing these I believe is enough to have you smote by God.

NUN YA
Perhaps I misread but are you saying these are okay or just saying that double bridles are not used on Walking Horses? And I might add, they would use any and all things to get the results they think will win. They disgust me and I have been to many shows....padded barns.....etc and witnessed the CRAP first hand so don't think we are the ignorant ones....they are for what they do to those glorious animals GOD HELP THEM. My two cents.

Oh BTW I live in Blountville Tennessee....you think I don't know what goes on?

[Xanthoria]

I have had a friend (in a non-english discipline) tell me it is ok to use a harsher bit because the horses were "backed off the bit" instead of being on the bit....

Backed off? H'm, when are people going to understand the concept of leverage... the horse is the same - it's the amount of force you're applying that's more.

For each increase in length of the shank (from an Uxeter Kimberwicke or short pelham all the way up to those 11" shanked bits we're seeing on this thread) there's a corresponding increase in leverage around the fulcrum of the mouthpiece, which acts to multiply the mechanical force that can be applied to the horse's mouth/poll/curb groove etc.

Anyone who says their horse "goes really lightly" or "goes much better" in a leverage bit of any kind really means to say "when I apply greater leverage I can use less force with my hands to create much greater pressure on my horse" - the horse, in fact, is behaving exactly the same but your effort (hand/arm) is less.

[amastrike]

Well... my horse would certainly go slower over fences. At least until he started galloping backward to get away from that thing... He gets cranky when I use the curb rein on the pelham (nevermind that I always explain to him that I only use it when he's being bad, so it's his own fault), I truly cannot imagine what he would do if I put that in his mouth. He's a saint, but not that much of one!

[Ambrey]

Anyone who says their horse "goes really lightly" or "goes much better" in a leverage bit of any kind really means to say "when I apply greater leverage I can use less force with my hands to create much greater pressure on my horse" - the horse, in fact, is behaving exactly the same but your effort (hand/arm) is less.


But these bits are something different because they aren't just working on pressure, they are working on pain. The jagged edges and small surfaces aren't going to give a steady push, they are going to poke like nails.

[Ambrey]

He gets cranky when I use the curb rein on the pelham (nevermind that I always explain to him that I only use it when he's being bad, so it's his own fault)

*snort* :lol:

[Xanthoria]

But these bits are something different because they aren't just working on pressure, they are working on pain. The jagged edges and small surfaces aren't going to give a steady push, they are going to poke like nails.

well there is that "added injury to insult" factor with some of these, yeah!

[Ambrey]

well there is that "added injury to insult" factor with some of these, yeah!

Just sayin', I grew up on a ranch riding everything in long-shanked curbs, and even we wouldn't have touched one of these with a 10 foot pole!

(not that we didn't do things with the curb bits that I wouldn't dream of doing in a million years now. Live and learn.)

[Chardavej]

WRONG- guess again. I am amazed at how much you seem to "know" about all this considering the fact you have............

NEVER rode a padded TWH

Have been offered, have always declined, I just can't do it, it's WRONG.

NEVER been to a padded barn

Yep sure have, and I don't like the treatment of the horses at the ones I have been to.

NEVER attended a TWH show

Several, even had my flat shod TWH in them.

NEVER attended the CELEBRATION.

Nope, I wont, ever, untill they clean up and get their act straight and treat the horses with care and compasion.

NEVER done anything but harp on and on about things you read or "learned" on the internet.
Pretty broad statement considering you really don't know this for a fact.

Just amazing

Oh yes, you are, uh- I mean it is.

I guess you feel padding and dark stalls and teaching a horse to stand still during DQ inspections and not flinch at pain and wrapping in saran wrap kerosene and mustard oil and chains and spurs and big bits and long shanks and tall pads and long toes are all just fine and dandy, eh?

Don't come NEAR my TWH's as I am afraid they would kick your face in despite being the quiet, kind, PATIENT, tolerant animals they are.

I tell you I didn't do any of these things to my old mare and she gaits beautifully, big rolling hips, long extended front legs, covers the ground fast, very, VERY forward. Heaven forbid though I also canter and GALLOP her! (GASP!) She is also pasture 24/7 (except snow and ice days).

I recently sold her and sure want her back. Lucky though for me she is still boarded with me and I do have first right of rufusal in the bill of sale. I keep asking them if they are ready to sell her back, they wont. : (

[Auventera Two]

Backed off? H'm, when are people going to understand the concept of leverage... the horse is the same - it's the amount of force you're applying that's more.

For each increase in length of the shank (from an Uxeter Kimberwicke or short pelham all the way up to those 11" shanked bits we're seeing on this thread) there's a corresponding increase in leverage around the fulcrum of the mouthpiece, which acts to multiply the mechanical force that can be applied to the horse's mouth/poll/curb groove etc.

Anyone who says their horse "goes really lightly" or "goes much better" in a leverage bit of any kind really means to say "when I apply greater leverage I can use less force with my hands to create much greater pressure on my horse" - the horse, in fact, is behaving exactly the same but your effort (hand/arm) is less.

Exactly. The horse is the same but he feels so light because the amount of force exerted by your arms is 1/10th what it would have to be in a snaffle.

That's the whole POINT of leverage. Exert less force - get the same result, or more. And the problem with some of these bits is that you have so MUCH leverage that the bits are engaged even if there is no pressure at all on the reins. And honestly - how many TWH photos can you dig up of riders in their classes with their 10" shanks and NO contact at all on the reins? They are almost always holding the reins in their fists and they brace against the reins and the stirrups. There is absolutely NO unity with the horse at all. It's a pulling contest to see who can outpull who.

You think this bit is not engaged? Pffft. This horse is 2 yr old.
http://www.mcdodifarms.com/images/DoseOfDocMoving.jpg

Oh yeah, we just keep the reins from floppin'. Sure. This horse is 3.
http://www.mcdodifarms.com/images/ShezaPlatinumScorebyTatianaKozlovski.gif

http://www.mcdodifarms.com/images/SpiritNDubHonkin.jpg

HEY LOOK! I found your 5 ring elevator bit in use!! :eek: And yeppers, boy that rein sure looks slack! Geeze buddy. You can almost floss your teeth with those reins!
http://www.mcdodifarms.com/images/LookinForCashNDubNTASHA.jpg

That 5 ring elevator must work real great for them!
http://www.mcdodifarms.com/images/DiamondNTASHA2002YOUTHWIN.jpg

Here's a nice loose rein for ya!
http://www.mcdodifarms.com/images/LadyPushinJazz.jpg

[wendy]

wouldn't the floppiness of the chain mouthpiece destroy the leaverage effect? I'd have to get hold of one and try the standard "how much does it hurt when applied to my leg" method of testing, but I would suspect that chain mouth 5 ring elevator bit is much less harsh than a single-jointed curb. Like a waterford- they work because there nothing for the horse to pull against. So "all" you have is a thin bumpy chain constantly and painfully being pulled against the tongue/gums.

[rugbygirl]

The chain on the first bit shown wasn't what I had an issue with...the links are actually fairly large. Some horses like chain mouthpieces. Like a multi-jointed snaffle.

The problem with "satan's bit" is the freaking ring shanks. It isn't an "elevator" bit, it is a crank-the-head into position bit. It isn't only TWH that do that though. Arabian riders are just as guilty, only they usually don't even bother with shanks...hook the tie-down to any bit and tie it to the girth, that'll do the job too. (That's my breed, and I DO show)

All showing has its dirty little secrets. It is easy to find this bit abused in the TWH world (for which it was designed). Just like it is easy to find a long-shaked spade bit being abused in the QH world, or easy to find HORRIBLE misuse of training yokes in the Arabian world.

[Nun Ya]

Read for comprehension girlfriend. ;) The site has been locked down since then. You now need a user ID and password to log in and view the eproofs.

And yes, there are other photographers but I've never found any that publicly post their eproofs the way that photographer did. Or if there are proofs, they are poor quality, or the thumbs are too small to be able to see much.

So lets get this straight "girlfriend" ..... Your telling me that this person will not let you view proofs?? You have to pay to get a password or whatever in order to veiw proofs of pictures taken with the intention to sell ...........photos. This is a little hard to grasp.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

:eek: Maybe that's meant for some weird fetish stuff for humans? :lol:

here's hoping!!

[Nun Ya]

Exactly. The horse is the same but he feels so light because the amount of force exerted by your arms is 1/10th what it would have to be in a snaffle.

That's the whole POINT of leverage. Exert less force - get the same result, or more. And the problem with some of these bits is that you have so MUCH leverage that the bits are engaged even if there is no pressure at all on the reins. And honestly - how many TWH photos can you dig up of riders in their classes with their 10" shanks and NO contact at all on the reins? They are almost always holding the reins in their fists and they brace against the reins and the stirrups. There is absolutely NO unity with the horse at all. It's a pulling contest to see who can outpull who.

You think this bit is not engaged? Pffft. This horse is 2 yr old.
http://www.mcdodifarms.com/images/DoseOfDocMoving.jpg

Oh yeah, we just keep the reins from floppin'. Sure. This horse is 3.
http://www.mcdodifarms.com/images/ShezaPlatinumScorebyTatianaKozlovski.gif

http://www.mcdodifarms.com/images/SpiritNDubHonkin.jpg

HEY LOOK! I found your 5 ring elevator bit in use!! :eek: And yeppers, boy that rein sure looks slack! Geeze buddy. You can almost floss your teeth with those reins!
http://www.mcdodifarms.com/images/LookinForCashNDubNTASHA.jpg

That 5 ring elevator must work real great for them!
http://www.mcdodifarms.com/images/DiamondNTASHA2002YOUTHWIN.jpg

Here's a nice loose rein for ya!
http://www.mcdodifarms.com/images/LadyPushinJazz.jpg

I am trying to figure out why you are all on the "oh yeah loose rein" bit :?: I did not say that the reins are "loose" or "floppy" I said "you keep enough tension on the reins to prevent flopping. "

Geesh ....... who needs to read for comprehension??? Please direct me to where it was said that the reins are to be floppy.

[Ambrey]

Like a waterford- they work because there nothing for the horse to pull against. So "all" you have is a thin bumpy chain constantly and painfully being pulled against the tongue/gums.

But a waterford with leverage is different than a waterford without.

It's like the difference between pulling a chain against your leg and holding two chains, one on each side, and cranking them together with great force. It's certainly going to hurt.

[amastrike]

Even if the reins were floppy, those bits would still be too harsh. Add ANY contact--even even to keep the reins still--and it's just plain cruel.

[sublimequine]

A2; Holy crap, never thought I'd actually see this bit ON a horse. The dang thing looks like it's prying the mouth clear open! :eek::eek::eek:

I just don't understand some folks. Take one of the gentlest, easy-going breeds out there.. and exploit that for all it's worth. :no:

I guess it makes me feel better that my own mare has a very alive and healthy sense of self-preservation. She just about breathed fire when I put a kimberwick in her mouth.. :lol:

[sublimequine]

Even if the reins were floppy, those bits would still be too harsh. Add ANY contact--even even to keep the reins still--and it's just plain cruel.

Well said. :no:

[Txfarrier11]

I raised, shod and showed TWHs for several decades and could tell you some REAL horror stories. Hang out in the grooming area of a TWH show around 1:00 in the AM and you might possibly see some amazing stuff. For instance, training a horse to pass the DQP by soring then beating the horses head when he flinches upon palpation.

One of the bright 'n shinin memories I DO have is watching an idiot take exception to complaints that his freaking oil of mustard was making the tack room smell like Auschwitz get worked over in the parking lot. Concerns about the statute of limitations prevents mention of my involvment in this matter.

[Auventera Two]

I guess it makes me feel better that my own mare has a very alive and healthy sense of self-preservation. She just about breathed fire when I put a kimberwick in her mouth.. :lol:

My girls are like that too. No way in heck would you get away with abusing any of them. They'd likely take your head off your shoulders and hand it back to you on a garbage can lid. Maybe some of these walking horses need to do the same. sheesh.

[SuperSTB]

So lets get this straight "girlfriend" ..... Your telling me that this person will not let you view proofs?? You have to pay to get a password or whatever in order to veiw proofs of pictures taken with the intention to sell ...........photos. This is a little hard to grasp.

Actually it's true- the photos were posted online a couple years ago. There was plenty of comment- nice and not so nice posted on several equine boards regarding them. (ears, eyes, blood in saliva) The photographer decided to pull the photos into a private album. And 3 yrs later she might not even have them online anymore as it cost money for the space and Professionals usually have time limits.

My hubby is a professional photographer and he sets up private galleries/album for clients all the time. Because of the quantity of jobs he has- he keep albums online for 2yrs before pulling them down. So if clients want 'archived' photos they have to request them by CD or DVD rom.

[Nun Ya]

I raised, shod and showed TWHs for several decades and could tell you some REAL horror stories. Hang out in the grooming area of a TWH show around 1:00 in the AM and you might possibly see some amazing stuff. For instance, training a horse to pass the DQP by soring then beating the horses head when he flinches upon palpation.

One of the bright 'n shinin memories I DO have is watching an idiot take exception to complaints that his freaking oil of mustard was making the tack room smell like Auschwitz get worked over in the parking lot. Concerns about the statute of limitations prevents mention of my involvment in this matter.


Oh there we go. Heres another I used to do it until I seen the light. :rolleyes:

Yes please hang out in the grooming areas or the warm up ring and tell me you see these things. Get real.

[Nun Ya]

Actually it's true- the photos were posted online a couple years ago. There was plenty of comment- nice and not so nice posted on several equine boards regarding them. (ears, eyes, blood in saliva) The photographer decided to pull the photos into a private album. And 3 yrs later she might not even have them online anymore as it cost money for the space and Professionals usually have time limits.

My hubby is a professional photographer and he sets up private galleries/album for clients all the time. Because of the quantity of jobs he has- he keep albums online for 2yrs before pulling them down. So if clients want 'archived' photos they have to request them by CD or DVD rom.


Thats all fine and dandy my point is why don't A2 show me any picture of a horse with blood in his/her mouth? A walking horse that is. From any website, from any photographer or any home snap shot. Especially since it is so common to see according to her.

[europa]

Nun Ya
Just tell me how often you clean your horses stall?
How large are the pads on your horses feet?

Oh and.....have you finally gotten your horse broken yet that bucks everyone off..... I think we found the bit for you. Maybe he is telling you something about your horsemanship abilities since they are soo much better then ours! GEESH

Why don't you stop discounting everything everyone is saying which I am sure is true of most TWH people who show and get over it. Have another screwdriver!

[SuperSTB]

Thats all fine and dandy my point is why don't A2 show me any picture of a horse with blood in his/her mouth? A walking horse that is. From any website, from any photographer or any home snap shot. Especially since it is so common to see according to her.

Well you can just as easily try and do a search for TWH pictures as well.

I think you missed the point where both she and I said that the particular photo is NO LONGER ACCESSIBLE. I've seen the photo (actually there were a couple) when it was online 3 years ago linked on a thread from another equine bulletin board.

Many of the photos that particular photographer posted were 'raw' images ie unaltered. The photographer had the option for event participants to purchase photos that were edited.. ie for color, ear position, crop, etc... Again a common service provided by photographers.

Along the subject of photography- most professionals will showcase edited photos- not 'raw' images. I in particular (noting the close involvement with my husband's business) though it a bit unusual that this particular photographer, while she had decent shots, put them online with limited to no watermarks, raw photos, and by public viewing.

[Chardavej]

Give it up guys, you're talking to someone who apparently wants to believe what we speak of isn't happening, they just want to "turn the other cheek" and pretend it's not happening.

I really don't think you've been around any walking horse barns or shows the way YOU are speaking.

Too many people against it, it is WRONG and CRUEL. Period.

[sidepasser]

So that's a uh, 5 ring elevator??

Jeez.

Seriously though, is that a mule bit?

No not a mule bit or at least not a bit that my mule would agree to anyway..she prefers a plain snaffle or french link bit..

my walking horse goes in a tender touch bit, nothing like the bit in the pic.

[Nun Ya]

Nun Ya
Just tell me how often you clean your horses stall?
How large are the pads on your horses feet?

Oh and.....have you finally gotten your horse broken yet that bucks everyone off..... I think we found the bit for you. Maybe he is telling you something about your horsemanship abilities since they are soo much better then ours! GEESH

Why don't you stop discounting everything everyone is saying which I am sure is true of most TWH people who show and get over it. Have another screwdriver!

First of all I do not have any padded horses. Thank you anyway. AND DO NOT QUESTION THE CARE I GIVE MY HORSES. My horses are well taken care of. How about yours????

The horse I had that a problem to break is doing fine and why don't you come over sometime. I'd love for you to take a ride.

Get your facts straight, and quick. I do not pro claim to be some great horse trainer nor have I ever said I had great horsemanship abilities but I will tell you real fast that I show deep in Twh country and all around and when people hoop and hollar about things I know are wrong, I will speak up.

I discount what everyone is saying about walkers because it is not true and most of these people have never been anywhere near a padded or nor do I care if they ever will be but I do not think it is fair for a bunch of people to bash on something in which they have no knowledge, experience, or anything but a picture to go on .... oh maybe they read something on the internet and now think they somehow used to be involved in the industry until blah blah blah. Our horses are over 98% within compliance. They have went through every inspection known to man, especially at this years Celebration and they are still showing. Why is that??? because they are compliant, things are not the way they were in the 60's, the industry and the people within the industry have went to great lenghts to get our horses at this 98% and still people a jacking their jaw.

[Nun Ya]

Well you can just as easily try and do a search for TWH pictures as well.

I think you missed the point where both she and I said that the particular photo is NO LONGER ACCESSIBLE. I've seen the photo (actually there were a couple) when it was online 3 years ago linked on a thread from another equine bulletin board.

Many of the photos that particular photographer posted were 'raw' images ie unaltered. The photographer had the option for event participants to purchase photos that were edited.. ie for color, ear position, crop, etc... Again a common service provided by photographers.

Along the subject of photography- most professionals will showcase edited photos- not 'raw' images. I in particular (noting the close involvement with my husband's business) though it a bit unusual that this particular photographer, while she had decent shots, put them online with limited to no watermarks, raw photos, and by public viewing.

I am not the one on here saying I have seen these pictures if there are pictures of this ............ show me.

[rugbygirl]

Nun Ya, even I know TWH who were padded at two years old, and I live in ALBERTA. They are practically a rare breed here. And I've sure as hell seen them ridden in doubles...and in at least three of those RECENT SHOW PHOTOS, the riders were smack down on the horse's kidneys. Maybe relax a little.

That aside, it has nothing to do with that bit we were talking about...and someone DID manage to find that bit in use on a TWH. We are allowed to find it offensive, you haven't given ANY information that proves the contrary.

They'd likely take your head off your shoulders and hand it back to you on a garbage can lid. Maybe some of these walking horses need to do the same

I'm going to stand by this one...even the showiest, most hyperactive TWH is still a tractable, tolerant horse of the highest order. When I retire and desire a nice, smooth mover (over my, ummm, less smooth Clyde) I am definitely getting a TWH! Such sweethearts, all the ones I've met.

[europa]

PULEZZZZZZZZZZZZ

You didn't answer my question.
I own the MOST spoiled horses on earth so you can direct that crap elsewhere.

For someone who shows alot according to your own words you are in total denial. I have yet to visit ONE barn with TWHS that didn't have some sketchy practices at best. So that is the norm and not the exception.

Invite me over and I will point yours out....I am sure that it won't be hard.

You got me mad now. It is just ridiculous to argue this with someone who has blinders on...thought those were for racing only.

At least your horses are not padded....that is all I can say. And Celebration is soo totally corrupt it is ridiculous.

[europa]

http://www.hsus.org/horses_equines/tennessee_walking_horse.html

HA HA...they hired their own inspectors....GEESH
Nope no corruption there.

[Nun Ya]

PULEZZZZZZZZZZZZ

You didn't answer my question.
I own the MOST spoiled horses on earth so you can direct that crap elsewhere.

For someone who shows alot according to your own words you are in total denial. I have yet to visit ONE barn with TWHS that didn't have some sketchy practices at best. So that is the norm and not the exception.

Invite me over and I will point yours out....I am sure that it won't be hard.

You got me mad now. It is just ridiculous to argue this with someone who has blinders on...thought those were for racing only.

At least your horses are not padded....that is all I can say. And Celebration is soo totally corrupt it is ridiculous.

How do we know your horses are the most spoiled on earth??? Because you say so??
Well then ok.

You can come to my barn any day, any time and I would love for you to show me the errors of my ways.

[Nun Ya]

http://www.hsus.org/horses_equines/tennessee_walking_horse.html

HA HA...they hired their own inspectors....GEESH
Nope no corruption there.

NO 1: did you look at the date on your article???

No 2: They who????????? Do you think we ( the owners and trainers) get to
hire the DQP'S AND USDA???

[europa]

yeah...last year...I am sure they have cleaned it all up now.

ROLLIN EYES

I also looked at the 2008 pics....BOY THOSE HORSES LOOK HAPPY

HA HA

[europa]

YOU JUST DON'T GET IT DO YA

THE SHOW MANAGEMENT (TERM USED LOOSELY) HIRED THEM>>>>>>AND THEY DID SUCH A FINE JOB ON THEIR GOLF CARTS

Did you read the article per chance?

I guess none of us "KNOW" what we are talking about. I feel so plum ignorant.

[Nun Ya]

Your article is from some tree hugging PETA freak and articles like that
are a dime a dozen. The horses are not beaten, sored, sad, scared
mistreated or whatever else you would say.

My advise to you or anyone else for that matter is to go to the Celebration
and watch and see for yourself. You can go to all the barns during the day
and walk the grounds at the show that evening, you can watch the horses being
inspected and tell me that this still goes on. If it were true........ there would not be any horse shows.

BUT ......... we have treaded way off subject and I am sorry for that. I tend to
get fired up, and right now I am finished . But when A2 starts her bull**** I just spaz out.

My point earlier was yes these bits are sometimes used in TWH shows but they are not the worst on the market. Do I use them? No, but I have ridden horses who have. Yes all my horses wear shanked bits but nothing quite that extreame.

[sublimequine]

Well this has digressed into a big poo-slinging match, hasn't it? Nice, folks.

Shall we challenge ourselves to go back to the original topic, that had barely ANYTHING to do with walking horses? Sheesh! :lol:

[Nun Ya]

YOU JUST DON'T GET IT DO YA

THE SHOW MANAGEMENT (TERM USED LOOSELY) HIRED THEM>>>>>>AND THEY DID SUCH A FINE JOB ON THEIR GOLF CARTS

Did you read the article per chance?

I guess none of us "KNOW" what we are talking about. I feel so plum ignorant.

If you think this is fact you are soooooooo off key. The USDA attend the Celebration everyyear and show management has nothing to do with hiring them. I think you are the one who just don't get it. I love how people think we hire our own DQP'S.

[Nun Ya]

Well this has digressed into a big poo-slinging match, hasn't it? Nice, folks.

Shall we challenge ourselves to go back to the original topic, that had barely ANYTHING to do with walking horses? Sheesh! :lol:

I am mostly to blame for this and I am sorry.

[sublimequine]

I am mostly to blame for this and I am sorry.

No prob. Let's just move onnnnn. :yes:

[europa]

You see, at those times when the U.S. Department of Agriculture can spare an inspector to attend a Walking Horse competition, violations can be 10 times as numerous as when the industry regulates itself. In 2006, with USDA on hand to oversee industry inspectors, the entire event unraveled.

This year, with inspectors hired by show management conducting the examinations, HSUS observers watched horses react in pain upon inspection and still be allowed to compete. Handlers held horses during inspections in a manner prohibited under federal regulation. Numerous other regulations were repeatedly violated. Despite a promise to limit the number of handlers in the warm-up area, as many as seven people tended to a single horse as the competition neared an end.



READING COMPREHENSION= F

[sublimequine]

You see, at those times when the U.S. Department of Agriculture can spare an inspector to attend a Walking Horse competition, violations can be 10 times as numerous as when the industry regulates itself. In 2006, with USDA on hand to oversee industry inspectors, the entire event unraveled.

This year, with inspectors hired by show management conducting the examinations, HSUS observers watched horses react in pain upon inspection and still be allowed to compete. Handlers held horses during inspections in a manner prohibited under federal regulation. Numerous other regulations were repeatedly violated. Despite a promise to limit the number of handlers in the warm-up area, as many as seven people tended to a single horse as the competition neared an end.



READING COMPREHENSION= F

Are you done yet?

PLAYING WELL WITH OTHERS = F!

As for the BIT IN THE ORIGINAL TOPIC, I don't quite understand even the point of 5 rings, except that I guess you could change level of leverage really quickly? But really, why would one need that? Changing out bits doesn't take THAT much time?

[europa]

I didn't start it.

I apologize but I get furious about animal abuse.

Nun Ya I was not implying you mistreated your horses....I just got very angry. It is not reserved for only padded TWH...it extends to Halter QHs on steroids also.

[Nun Ya]

You see, at those times when the U.S. Department of Agriculture can spare an inspector to attend a Walking Horse competition, violations can be 10 times as numerous as when the industry regulates itself. In 2006, with USDA on hand to oversee industry inspectors, the entire event unraveled.

This year, with inspectors hired by show management conducting the examinations, HSUS observers watched horses react in pain upon inspection and still be allowed to compete. Handlers held horses during inspections in a manner prohibited under federal regulation. Numerous other regulations were repeatedly violated. Despite a promise to limit the number of handlers in the warm-up area, as many as seven people tended to a single horse as the competition neared an end.



READING COMPREHENSION= F


This will be my last post on this with you and then I am done......

Your READING COMPREHENSION earns you an - F as well


This article was written last year... not this.

:rolleyes: Lost cause

[Nun Ya]

I didn't start it.

I apologize but I get furious about animal abuse.

Nun Ya I was not implying you mistreated your horses....I just got very angry. It is not reserved for only padded TWH...it extends to Halter QHs on steroids also.

Lets just call it truce for now and get over it. We have made a poop thread over this and I am sorry.

I will also apologize to you as well if I offended you in anyway. I am over it. :) :yes:

[Wellspotted]

errrr ... "call a truce"?

BTW, a guy was just in here and we got to talking about gaited horses (don't know how) and he mentioned his family raising TWHs, then he mentioned padded shoes, fiberglass shoes bolted onto the horse's hooves. I wanted so much to say something, but what? This is work. He himself doesn't raise the horses. But to have someone standing here admitting to knowing people who do that to their horses, as if it's just OK ... :no:

I know, I know, I should've said something ...

[Nun Ya]

errrr ... "call a truce"?

:lol: ahhhhhhhh I didn't even realize what I typed!!!!! My bad, it has been a long day.

[Ambrey]

As for the BIT IN THE ORIGINAL TOPIC, I don't quite understand even the point of 5 rings, except that I guess you could change level of leverage really quickly? But really, why would one need that? Changing out bits doesn't take THAT much time?

It just looks cool.

[Auventera Two]

I am not the one on here saying I have seen these pictures if there are pictures of this ............ show me.

Nice try. You saw the pictures 3 years ago just like everybody else did. You made some stink about the idea that it wasn't "really" blood and that if it was the horse probably bit his tongue or something. Maybe he did? Who knows. But the point was that apparently other people have seen bloody mouths too and that wasn't the first time it's been seen. That is the only time I have "personally" seen it except on my own horse when she came to me with 2 bleeding bit sores from an improperly fitted curb bit.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

AV2 - I went to your site and was appalled. I don't ride saddleseat, and I do appreciate there is abuse at all levels in all disciplines, so I'm not pointing fingers.

But I just don't understand. I thought the whole idea was that horses are capable of moving pretty fabulously without us on their backs, and the whole idea was to have them be balanced, and relaxed and capable, given that they now have 150 odd pounds of human atop. I genuinely don't get it - in any discipline - what the appeal is. What's so appealing about the high action? or the exaggerated position (like rollkur)? I am not asking this in a snide way - just honestly confused. What's the point of it all? Knowing that some of these things cause so much pain?

[Auventera Two]

How do we know your horses are the most spoiled on earth??? Because you say so??
Well then ok.

You can come to my barn any day, any time and I would love for you to show me the errors of my ways.

Here is what you just don't get - you never have - and apparently you never will.

YOU personally might not own padded horses, and YOUR personal horses might be the most pampered spoiled creatures on the planet. But that does NOT dismiss all the other fruit loops within your chosen discipline/breed who abuse horses because their daddy done did it and they gonna done did it too bless jesus.

You sent me a photo one time of one of your horses - a gorgeous palamino. Lovely horse. No sign at all of any soring or mistreatment. In good flesh, lovely shiny coat, looked happy, good fitting halter. But that is ONE HORSE in this entire stinking industry.

You keep making excuses for all these idiot horse abusers that don't have two brain cells to rub together, like they were old high school buddies. Why?? Can you not see the abuse for yourself and call a spade a spade?

When I read the Welfare of the Horse Committee reports of endurance horse deaths due to negligence on the horse owner/riders part, I am sickened. Apalled. Pissed off. I own an endurance horse and she's getting time off right now because she was diagnosed with gastric ulcers via gastroscopy. I care about my horse and I want to do the best thing for her that I can. But SOME people within the endurance horse industry don't have sense enough to pour piss out of a boot. I can call a spade a spade, and so can you. But you DON'T.

[Auventera Two]

Well this has digressed into a big poo-slinging match, hasn't it? Nice, folks.

Shall we challenge ourselves to go back to the original topic, that had barely ANYTHING to do with walking horses? Sheesh! :lol:

I has EVERYTHING to do with walking horses, because what you posted is a WALKING HORSE BIT. Look at the home page of the website you posted - padded walking horse, right there on the home page. And the verbiage says they make bits for the walking horses industry. I'd say that pretty much makes it about walking horses.

[sublimequine]

I has EVERYTHING to do with walking horses, because what you posted is a WALKING HORSE BIT. Look at the home page of the website you posted - padded walking horse, right there on the home page. And the verbiage says they make bits for the walking horses industry. I'd say that pretty much makes it about walking horses.

This not the "Let's watch A2 go on a tirade" thread. This is a "holy crap that's a scary bit" thread. I don't care what it's used for, I was sharing it because I've never seen anything like it before. All disciplines, or at least most of them, will have "WHAT THE HECK?!" bits like this one. The fact that this bit's a walking horse bit is just a coincidence.

Are you going to just continue ranting off topic, or are you going to just drop it and MOVE ON? Sheesh. If you wanna sit there and just yell, go make your own thread about it and stop clogging up mine! :mad:

Ambrey; Maybe you're right. The bunch of rings looks different than just long as heck shanks, so maybe that's the appeal? Who knows! :eek:

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I do know that if I even tried to put that in my horse's mouth and use it...well, I wouldn't blame him for anything he tried to do to me after that.

[sublimequine]

I do know that if I even tried to put that in my horse's mouth and use it...well, I wouldn't blame him for anything he tried to do to me after that.

:lol::lol::lol:

[kookicat]

So lets get this straight "girlfriend" ..... Your telling me that this person will not let you view proofs?? You have to pay to get a password or whatever in order to veiw proofs of pictures taken with the intention to sell ...........photos. This is a little hard to grasp.

Let's get this straight.

IT'S YOU'RE. NOT YOUR!

As in, I guess you're one of the people who think it's okay to stick a bit with 10+ inch shanks and a god awful mouthpeice in a horse's mouth?

Justfy that, will you, because I sure can't. :no:

[sublimequine]

Let's get this straight.

IT'S YOU'RE. NOT YOUR!

As in, I guess you're one of the people who think it's okay to stick a bit with 10+ inch shanks and a god awful mouthpeice in a horse's mouth?

Justfy that, will you, because I sure can't. :no:

That's a good point. Is there ANY time, EVER, that this bit would be justified?

I sure can't think of anything remotely close to justifying that bit. :eek: :no: :no:

[Ambrey]

That's a good point. Is there ANY time, EVER, that this bit would be justified?

I sure can't think of anything remotely close to justifying that bit. :eek: :no: :no:

That's exactly the point.

It's not about the entire walking horse industry, it's about whichever people would use a bit like this. If nobody bought them, they wouldn't make them. So people IN THE WALKING HORSE WORLD need to call it out.

They use these things in SHOWS???

[sublimequine]

That's exactly the point.

It's not about the entire walking horse industry, it's about whichever people would use a bit like this. If nobody bought them, they wouldn't make them. So people IN THE WALKING HORSE WORLD need to call it out.

They use these things in SHOWS???

This is an honest question, but don't they have like rules for what bits are legal and not legal in the gaited world? I can't imagine that bit would be legal under any rules.. :confused:

[SuperSTB]

I am not the one on here saying I have seen these pictures if there are pictures of this ............ show me.

Again...

CAN-NOT-SHOW-PICTURES-THEY-ARE-NOT-AVAILABLE-PUBLICALLY-ON-THE-INTERNET-ANYMORE.

[Ambrey]

This is an honest question, but don't they have like rules for what bits are legal and not legal in the gaited world? I can't imagine that bit would be legal under any rules.. :confused:

There were photos of horses posing for ribbons in one! Maybe a different mouthpiece, but same huge shanks.

[Txfarrier11]

Oh there we go. Heres another I used to do it until I seen the light. :rolleyes:

Yes please hang out in the grooming areas or the warm up ring and tell me you see these things. Get real.

I believe you have misinterpeted my post. Kindly reread it. I'm not neccesarily opposed to Big Lick horses, having shod them for years. There is nothing inherantly wrong with shoeing horses with pads, IMO, if you subtract the emotional reaction of people that don't know what they are looking at. The problem I have is with pressure shoeing and other forms of soreing. I have seen Plantation horses that were more sore than the shod up horses.

As for "getting real" I am the real thing, this is what I do for a living. My line of work has taken me to the training barns, not just the shows.

[cordial]

Read for comprehension girlfriend. ;) The site has been locked down since then. You now need a user ID and password to log in and view the eproofs.

And yes, there are other photographers but I've never found any that publicly post their eproofs the way that photographer did. Or if there are proofs, they are poor quality, or the thumbs are too small to be able to see much.


Well, well here we go again!!! I knew sooner or later your bullcrap would start up again. What ------don't you have a life?
Just got back from the Big Celebration, where we went in five classes, and got good ribbons in all of them. Also the compliance rate for the show was 97%, and there were almost 5,000 horses shown.
Also, byt the way....why do you feel the need to try and log on to the web site of the photographers that take pictures of TWH's. Avalon is not the only one that is at the Celebration----but I'm not sharing their names. WHY---because you have no business going on their sites , and then coming on here with your same old crap. The best picture we have of my husband coming down the ramp into the big oval. If I knew how to post pictures I would post it. His mares ears are up, her eyes are happy, and can just tell how much she loves what she is doing.

[Txfarrier11]

errrr ... then he mentioned padded shoes, fiberglass shoes bolted onto the horse's hooves. .

These are known as "Instant Walking shoes" and are a training device used to judge how much weight a big lick horse can carry. The are an aluminum tank that liquid can be added or subtracted from and are bolted to a light shoe nailed to the foot. I'm not sure how you would bolt any appliance to a horses foot.

[cordial]

I believe you have misinterpeted my post. Kindly reread it. I'm not neccesarily opposed to Big Lick horses, having shod them for years. There is nothing inherantly wrong with shoeing horses with pads, IMO, if you subtract the emotional reaction of people that don't know what they are looking at. The problem I have is with pressure shoeing and other forms of soreing. I have seen Plantation horses that were more sore than the shod up horses.

As for "getting real" I am the real thing, this is what I do for a living. My line of work has taken me to the training barns, not just the shows.

Farrier,
You are quite right about the pressure -shoeing that is done by some trainers in the flat-shod division. It stinks, but A2, screams and rants about the padded, the padded, over and over again. She is clueless what the hell she is talking about

[Anawazor]

Or, God itself, hopefully, would!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Yeah, you would hope- but there doesn't seem to be any smiting going on because of poor choices!
:no:
I still don't understand being SO impatient that you would forgo training/understanding and jump right to "hmm, I bet a bicycle chain would do the trick". Regardless of breed or discipline. There just has to be a better way to get the desired result!
(And I consider myself an impatient person!)

[Achterbahn]

Please don't shoot me (pretty please)

but

none of those bits (the ones ON the horses, not the ones in the pictures sans horse) appear to have a chin strap so, while I see that the bits look really horrible, I'm not sure they really get all that much leverage on the horse's mouth without anything to pivot on.

That being said - I could be totally wrong and just not looking closely enough.

[Ambrey]

Just got back from the Big Celebration, where we went in five classes, and got good ribbons in all of them. Also the compliance rate for the show was 97%, and there were almost 5,000 horses shown.

That means 150 horses not in compliance with the most basic and rudimentary requirements (which don't seem to include not using bits as torture devices).

Just sayin'.

[Xanthoria]

none of those bits (the ones ON the horses, not the ones in the pictures sans horse) appear to have a chin strap so, while I see that the bits look really horrible, I'm not sure they really get all that much leverage on the horse's mouth without anything to pivot on.

the fulcrum is the mouthpiece of the bit - any part of the shank sticking out below and/or above creates leverage.

Here are the three classes of lever with illus showing how they work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever

[Appsolute]

I have never used a mikmar.. or much beyond a basic snaffle, or a rubber pelham for hunting... any way,

To me, the two are VERY different. One works on leverage, one does not. One has links that are designed to lay flat, widely distributing pressure across the tongue, while laying low to not interfere with the palate.

The other?

Is just a chain, designed to cause pain. No thought to anatomy.. or humanity. More rings added for more leverage, you could yank the hell out of a horses face.


minus the 5 rings, that bit isn't all that different than this one: http://www.mikmar.com/bit-pages/Watson-snaffle.html

either way, not something i want in my horse's mouth!

[Achterbahn]

Xanthoria, thanks for the link, but I don't think you get exactly where I'm coming from.

On a traditional curb, the curb chain engages when the rein is pulled back, which puts pressure on the chin, nose and poll.

I would hope that most people here know, that if you forget to put on the curb chain (not that I would EVER do a thing like this) the bit can go almost straight back to horizontal and the horse won't even notice (unless he/she is laughing at you for being such an idiot)

Now, that's only if it slides on the top rounding (as most curb-type mouthpieces do), if that is fixed (e.g. the cheekpieces are stiff enough to avoid any flexing when the mouthpiece is rotated and the cheekpiece does not slide around the rounding where it is attached), then there would be a leverage effect, but not on the mouth or the chin but rather on the poll.

There are a lot of posts here that seem to think that the "poor horse's jaw is agape with the pressure of the bit" but that doesn't seem to fit with what I'm seeing the mechanism of the bit doing (again, please don't shoot me - not a TWH person nor a fan of "bitting up")

Looks like it would put pressure on the poll, yes, but not on the chin/mouth, no.

I'm not touching the bicycle chain bits with a 10' pole, but in terms of the shanks on some of the other bits, I believe that's the action as it would occur.

A2, some of the pictures that you posted of the youngsters - they don't even look like they have those long shanked bits in their mouths - they look like hacks to me - I'll get my bifocals on and look more closely, but you'd think you'd see gaping or even a mouth crinkle if the horses mouths were being that badly brutalized.

[Small Name Trainer aka SNIT!]

Hey folks, west coast horsewoman here,,,any bit, any shank, any uneducated hand can cause undeserved pain in a horse's mouth/jaw/brain/life....don't even get me started with the h/j worlds use of a a kimberwick to control un schooled horses so little kids who know no better can crank them around a ring or over fences even......just because it is considered industry standard does not make it right...but the time to fight these battles is when it pops up in front of your face and the horse it is being inflicted on mutely looks around for help...at YOU. Put your arguments to work for the horses,,, they deserve it. Do not wait for permission to help stop ignorance....offer a clinc to 4-hers, open your barn for an open house to the public...inspect the tack room of a trainer before you send your horse there!!!!!!! Action in a positive manner will help some horse some day....heated arguments on the internet only cause others to think badly of you because even if your discussion is on the side of the horse, you are still treating another animal horribly......humans are animals too...and we all deserve some respect for just surviving all this soo far!!!!! Do some thing to help change the horses life, think globally (even if none of us will ever ride at the Olympics) but treat the problem LOCALLY!!! in your own barnyard, at the next show you attend....Please be proactive and help, don't just start another sh(^*&^^^t flinging contest. Find a show steward, find the show manager, stand in the aisleway and shout "stop mistreating that horse" and video tape it while it happens....don't just walk away. Any breed, any day, any event where the public is allowed. The horse deserves better.

[Achterbahn]

Okay, took a closer look - A2, I was wrong, they are in the horses mouths - helps when you can see the pictures more clearly.

BUT

What I see is a bit that is very high in the mouth, and not pulling back on the jaw at all, so instead, when engaged, is pulling the lips up, but not nutcrackering the jaw or indeed, pulling backward on the jaw much at all.

Not that I'm arguing that these bits are safe/humane/legal/ought to be the best thing since sliced bread/anything else...

But I'm just not seeing the action that you guys are seeing.

[Xanthoria]

well without the curb the effect on the curb groove is indeed not there, but the leverage can still put a lot of pressure on the poll - more the higher (and lower) the shank extends above (below) the mouthpiece.

the pressure on the lips, bars, tongue etc here is coming from the direct force of the reins, plus or minus any gag action if the mouthpiece can slide up and down along the shank at all.

Having said all that, a lot of the saddleseat horses in long shanked bits like this I've seen online do indeed have curb chains! Curb hooks and chains can be added to just about any curb bit.

here's one (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/DblBridleSdlSeat.jpg/180px-DblBridleSdlSeat.jpg) and another (http://bridlecreekstable.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/pics_002.170162230_std.jpg) etc etc

[Achterbahn]

Sure, okay, so it puts a lot of pressure on the poll - on that point we agree. Course, most of the time when you put pressure on a horse's poll they raise their heads :) Which makes sense right - direct opposition to pressure is usually a horse's first response.

So, on the saddleseat horses that you showed, are those walkers? Because those don't look like the pictures that A2 showed us - wondering if there's a different culture there.

I believe someone had a story of learning to ride saddleseat that was taught to have hands so light that they shouldn't snap a thread even prior to ever getting on a horse. Dunno where that is (probably in the depths of COTH somewhere) but somehow that seems relevant.

Please understand - not arguing any particular point here, in the wrong hands even a fat-rubber-mullen-mouth snaffle can be brutal - just trying to get a handle on the gasping and would like to analyze this in a more logical fashion. No yelling - just discussion :)

[Appsolute]

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek:

TWO year olds...
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5zz3K1FcB7U

Be sure to have the sound on!

[katarine]

this years Celebration pics. Frothing mouths, but no gaping mouths, agonized eyeballs, etc...look at the horses after they are untacked in the Saturday WGC class- no terror, no despair: just hot hardworking horses.

http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/default.asp?displayURL=dspProofs.asp

[LuvMyNSH]

So, on the saddleseat horses that you showed, are those walkers? Because those don't look like the pictures that A2 showed us - wondering if there's a different culture there.



No, those weren't walkers. TWH aren't shown in double bridles. TWH are their own little world.

[Achterbahn]

That's what I thought, they didn't look like walkers (which was the subject of the discussion at the time).

I know nothing about either of those worlds - so education is a must.

And before anyone gets anyone's knickers in a twist, read the studies on effective pressure in dressage horse's mouths in a snaffle sometime. What was it, 7 lbs? That's a lot of mouth-numbing nerve crushing damage to those delicate mouths that we so need to preserve.

ALL disciplines have things that look/sound horrible and are difficult to understand. Suspend your judgement for awhile and see if you can understand - trust me, an open mind is worth it.

[Ambrey]

Sure, okay, so it puts a lot of pressure on the poll - on that point we agree. Course, most of the time when you put pressure on a horse's poll they raise their heads :) Which makes sense right - direct opposition to pressure is usually a horse's first response.

Pressure on the poll, counter pressure on the mouth. The difference is that the bit rises up in the mouth rather than being pulled down hard into the bars.

[Ambrey]

this years Celebration pics. Frothing mouths, but no gaping mouths, agonized eyeballs, etc...look at the horses after they are untacked in the Saturday WGC class- no terror, no despair: just hot hardworking horses.

http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/default.asp?displayURL=dspProofs.asp

Totally subjective observation.


http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/Proofs%5C2008%20Walking%20Horse%20Celebration%5CAu g%2020%20Wednesday%5CEvening%20Futurity%5CFUT11%20-%20Three%20Year%20Old%20Park%20Performance%20Stall ions,%20Mares,%20and%20Geldings%5CImages%5CFUT11-002-08WHC.JPG

looks gaping to me.

Can SOMEONE explain what the deal is with the slouching? I don't get it.

[Achterbahn]

Right, which is what I thought from my admittedly unscientific analysis of what the bit was doing. Raises up in the mouth and puts pressure where? - looks like only corners of the lips, not bars, from the rotation.

Now, that would be for a straight bar, the chain is a little different - because it's broken the way it is, it can't act like a normal fulcrum, if I'm thinking of it correctly, because it would be movable/collapsible if you will.

[Achterbahn]

Does it look to you like the rider is trying to get themselves back over the horse's center of gravity? Becuase that's sort of what it looks like to me - they are still behind it, yet not as far as they would be if they sat up?

[Ambrey]

Now, that would be for a straight bar, the chain is a little different - because it's broken the way it is, it can't act like a normal fulcrum, if I'm thinking of it correctly, because it would be movable/collapsible if you will.

It will still exert the same pressure (whatever pressure is exerted by the hands on the reins, x the leverage effect) but it will be distributed differently between the mouth and poll.

[Ambrey]

Does it look to you like the rider is trying to get themselves back over the horse's center of gravity? Becuase that's sort of what it looks like to me - they are still behind it, yet not as far as they would be if they sat up?

So sit way back and then slouch so the horse doesn't tip over?

[Achterbahn]

I think the sitting way back is a saddleseat style of riding - and then when the horse elevates in front they slouch forward almost like you would if you were riding a rear, to keep the balance slightly forward still. Just a guess from what I see in the pictures.

[LuvMyNSH]

ALL disciplines have things that look/sound horrible and are difficult to understand. Suspend your judgement for awhile and see if you can understand - trust me, an open mind is worth it.

I don't think my mind is ever going to be open enough to buy whatever line of BS someone uses to justify a chain mouth, 12" shank curb bit used with very heavy pressure. And yes, I've seen that set-up used. I think a *little* bit more than 7lbs of pressure is being put on the horse's mouth there.

Crappy horsemanship is crappy horsemanship, and sticking the kitchen sink into a horse's mouth isn't okay just because your horse doesn't trot. There are plenty of good trainers and riders who don't need this type of crap to get a good gait out of a horse.

I had a BNT arab trainer actually admit to me once that he rode his hunters in a bike chain and draw reins because he was lazy and it took too long to get the same look with a smooth snaffle. I wish more people could just be honest like that instead of coming up with stupid reasons why they need the 'kitchen sink' bits to get the same results other people can get without them.

FWIW yes, I own gaited horses and no, they don't need shanked bits to gait well.

[Achterbahn]

Oh don't get me wrong - I'm not defending the practice per se, I'm just trying to understand it myself and was hoping we could have a useful discourse as to what the bit actually *did*.

I don't own gaited horses, and have only ever ridden some TWH's that were camp trail horses (as far as my TWH experience goes) - so I'm just hoping that some people who do weigh in and explain how the bits are used and what they think the action is :)

[Xanthoria]

Sure, okay, so it puts a lot of pressure on the poll - on that point we agree. Course, most of the time when you put pressure on a horse's poll they raise their heads :) Which makes sense right - direct opposition to pressure is usually a horse's first response.

Actually you'll find poll pressure results in lowered lead carriage, unless it has a gag action (sliding mouthpiece) which = raising. Lots of the long shanked bits have a sliding mouthpiece. You'll notice the riders' hands are all very high (http://www.monarchstables.com/images/for_sale_photos/Douwke_G_May06.jpg) to raise the head too, and AFAIK the horses are trained in overchecks and sidechecks (http://www.modern-saddlebred.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245) to raise the head as well. Naturally they come from very "upheaded" breeds too.

So, on the saddleseat horses that you showed, are those walkers? Because those don't look like the pictures that A2 showed us - wondering if there's a different culture there.

all the same to me - very long shanked bits, polka dotted patent leather and bridlepaths a mile long! :D

[TouchMeKnot]

You see, at those times when the U.S. Department of Agriculture can spare an inspector to attend a Walking Horse competition, violations can be 10 times as numerous as when the industry regulates itself. In 2006, with USDA on hand to oversee industry inspectors, the entire event unraveled.

This year, with inspectors hired by show management conducting the examinations, HSUS observers watched horses react in pain upon inspection and still be allowed to compete. Handlers held horses during inspections in a manner prohibited under federal regulation. Numerous other regulations were repeatedly violated. Despite a promise to limit the number of handlers in the warm-up area, as many as seven people tended to a single horse as the competition neared an end.



READING COMPREHENSION= F

The "entire event" in 2006 did not unravel. The show management canceled the stake class, not the Government. Further, my horse showed in several classes in 2006, Western and English, and showed in the championships, fully sound and fully compliant.

Where are you getting your data about seven people tending to a single horse? We have to get groom armbands for every groom we bring in, and we are limited to how many grooms can go in with each entry. The fact is that the Celebration was extremely strict this year; even though the USDA allows videotaping of DQP inspections, the Celebration made us sign a form waiving that right. And the USDA usually allows a competitor to call his own vet if there is a dispute in inspection. This year, we had to sign a form waiving the right to our own vet and the only governing vet was the vet hired by the Celebration. So, the fact is that we went through enormous hoops to get horses in the ring, at our own risk, waiving the right to videotape for our own protection of what was happening in inspection.

Where are you getting your data that horses that reacted to palpation and were clearly showing signs of pain were allowed to compete? You are saying that with the USDA present and watching the DQP inspections, along with HSUS observers, that they were deliberately passing horses that were in pain? I find that hard to believe.

Shoes were pulled on winning horses, and hooftesters were used to check for soundness. The fact is that while there were tickets written for violation of the HPA, those people who showed (and one of our horses did show in AOT class) went through enormous hoops to have their horses sound and in compliance with the HPA. The hooftester is extremely controversial because while it can identify an unsound horse, it cannot measure intent. Part of the whole inspection process is differentiating between a normal scar or knick or sole bruise vs those that are deliberately inflicted. It is not illegal to have a scar or sole bruise; but it is illegal to put them there deliberately. The hooftester just says there is a reaction; it cannot prove that someone deliberately sored the horse. Maybe this can give you an authentic look inside what TWH competition is really like.

As for the bits, I was trained by a TWH trainer that taught us how to check the horse's mouth and tongue after every ride to make sure there were no sores. I've never ridden in an elevator bit, but we do ride in shanked bits and serious TWH horseman and women are taught how to appropriately fit a bit, apply contact to a bit, and ride a show performance with a shanked bit. There are some people that yank horses mouths terribly, but most people work to put and keep a good mouth on their horses.

This anti-TWH rhetoric gets tiresome and it is offensive to those of us who show sound and in compliance with the HPA--and in humane bits.

[AnotherRound]

This anti-TWH rhetoric gets tiresome and it is offensive to those of us who show sound and in compliance with the HPA--and in humane bits.

Except that this part of the conversation is not about those who show sound and in compliance with the HPA and in humane bits. Its about those who show in inhumane bits, and are abusive to the animals. That isn't rhetoric. Discussing abuses in specifics is not rhetoric.

Rhetoric: From Wikipedia: "...rhetorical arguments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument), as in politics or even justice, do not make use of demonstrable or tested truths, but resort to fallible opinions, popular perceptions, transient beliefs, chosen evidence or evidence at hand (like statistics), which are all properly called commonplaces as they help establish a commonality of understanding between the orator or rhetor and his/her audience."

We ARE making use of deomonstrable and tested truths. These are not fallible opinions, popular perceptions, transient beliefs, chosen evidence or evidence at hand. Discussing the details of the practices of correct bit use and incorrect bit abuse is reasonable and specific. Marginalizing this conversation by injecting a different and reasonble (it can be argued) kind of TW showing and practice from the abuses we are discussing is out of context and disingenuous.

Carry on.

[trubandloki]

....don't even get me started with the h/j worlds use of a a kimberwick to control un schooled horses so little kids who know no better can crank them around a ring or over fences even......just because it is considered industry standard does not make it right...

I do not know any place that in the non-breed hunter jumper world that a kimberwick is industry standard. Not even close. They are VERY frowned upon by the hunter jumper world.

Breed show people, sure. But not the hunter jumper world. Do a search in the H/J section.



Someone asked what all the rings on the original bit were for, I have to wonder that too. Do you suppose it is just to look way cool or something? Instead of a boring long shank with a single ring on the end.

[Amwrider]

My guess would be that it is a training bit and you can change where you attach the reins - higher ring for less curb action, lower ring for more curb action.

[Auventera Two]

Well I just tried to post a ton of really scary pics from that photography site Katarine linked to but none of my links worked. It just loaded the home page on every one. Darn it!

But - if you go and look at Sat. morning and night and Friday night, you can find that 5 ringed bit in use on several horses. One of them even has additional shank on top of the 5 rings! It must be 14" long!! :eek:

And tons of pics of mouths gaped open. One dude riding that must be 350 lbs. on a little 2 year old. The horse looks like it should ride the dude.

Lots of screwed up people in that "world."

And NO, there are no BIT RULES at all in the TWHBEA that I know of. If I'm srong, somebody correct me. I'd love it if there were. Anything goes apparently.

[europa]

I am going to say one thing then I am done with this conversation.

It is like the fundamentalist Islamic Terrorists....the muslims need to clean up their own issues. If the sound TWH people don't see and acknowledge that there is a PROBLEM in their area of riding then nothing will happen. If we offend you for not doing or acknowledging this then so be it. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

If the whole world is holding a microscope on the TWH community it can only help.......and you have nothing to lose if you are doing things the right way.

Anyone is welcome to see any horse on my property anytime as I have nothing to hide. Innocence is it's own best defense.

Just the fact that these bits exist and are in use points to a PROBLEM to me. HMMMMMM

[Nun Ya]

And NO, there are no BIT RULES at all in the TWHBEA that I know of. If I'm srong, somebody correct me. I'd love it if there were. Anything goes apparently.


You are wrong. But if you want to know about the rules all you have to do is call up
the NHSC and they will gladly send you your very own copy of the rule book for $5.00.

[Ambrey]

Well I just tried to post a ton of really scary pics from that photography site Katarine linked to but none of my links worked. It just loaded the home page on every one. Darn it!


Right click on the photo, and choose "properties." If you double click on the link in "Location" and copy it, it gives you a direct link to the photo.

[Ambrey]

You are wrong. But if you want to know about the rules all you have to do is call up
the NHSC and they will gladly send you your very own copy of the rule book for $5.00.

Well then the bit rules are crazy lax. Allowing that kind of shank in a show horse doesn't do much to support the idea that the TWH industry is all about the horses, does it?

[trubandloki]

You are wrong. But if you want to know about the rules all you have to do is call up
the NHSC and they will gladly send you your very own copy of the rule book for $5.00.

One would think that someone who has said they are done with this thread twice that would come back and post would actually provide the wording of the rule, since they are saying there is one.

[Auventera Two]

One would think that someone who has said they are done with this thread twice that would come back and post would actually provide the wording of the rule, since they are saying there is one.

There is no rule. I've asked her about 10 times about this over the last 3 years, and she always sputters "Yeah well, buy the book." She doesn't know the rules and apparently none of the other walking horse people do either because they never are forthcoming with any rules. So they either don't exist, or the judges don't care and don't enforce them anyway.

There "might" be rules in the lite shod devisions, but I've been told there are none in the padded divisions. So I would think some people here would be jumping at the chance to prove me wrong. So please do.

[Auventera Two]

Just the fact that these bits exist and are in use points to a PROBLEM to me. HMMMMMM

Exactly. If the horses are so light and obedient, why use these bits in the first place? If the reins are held only taught enough to keep the reins from flopping (yeah right) then why the 10 or 12" shanks? Why not go in a short shanked curb, or a snaffle? I ride my horses with contact also. You can see that in my profile pic. I hate flopping reins. I think they're more annoying and distracting to a horse than maintaining some contact. But I sure as bleep don't do it on a 10" shank.

But only to be fair, in the photos, I did see 2 snaffles on big lick horses, and several short shanked curbs. Of course we don't know what the mouthpieces are like, but at least their riders aren't using 10" of shank that they don't need.

[ChocoMare]

The European TWH Association publishes theirs for free on the web:

http://www.twhnews.com/European_TWH_Rulebook_General_2007_final-704a.pdf

I'm still searching for the U.S. TWHBEA Rulebook for 2007.

[Nun Ya]

One would think that someone who has said they are done with this thread twice that would come back and post would actually provide the wording of the rule, since they are saying there is one.

I said I was done getting off subject. One would also think that if someone really wanted to know they would buy the rule book and look it up for themself. Especially for the ones who seem to be so concerned with the issue.

I had to buy my copy and I do not see where me reciting the language for people to mock and twist on a forum will be of any good. If there is someone who honestly wants to know the rule and is not a troll just trying to stir in stink you can PM me and I will tell you. But, I will have to get my rule book from home if you want it word for word.

[Ambrey]

But only to be fair, in the photos, I did see 2 snaffles on big lick horses, and several short shanked curbs. Of course we don't know what the mouthpieces are like, but at least their riders aren't using 10" of shank that they don't need.

But nobody is saying EVERYONE in the TWH industry is bad! Only that some are, and that the association hasn't gone far enough in protecting the horses.

I mean, the TWH people know that they're not going to be able to please most of us while they are still padding up the horses like that, but at least they could limit the use of these torture devices! People wouldn't be using them if they didn't bring more wins. Why not start having evidence of more humane training methods start counting for something in the show ring?

[Nun Ya]

The European TWH Association publishes theirs for free on the web:

http://www.twhnews.com/European_TWH_Rulebook_General_2007_final-704a.pdf

I'm still searching for the U.S. TWHBEA Rulebook for 2007.

TWHBEA's rule book is no good. NHSC rules prevail at all shows affiliated w/ the NHSC. There is only one rule book that the breed shows go by and that is the one published by the NHSC. It is also the one that majority of your Saterday night shows go by. The only time the TWHBEA's rule book will come into play is if it is a show sanctioned by them. Mostly like the versatility shows.

[europa]

And isn't this a bit telling???


A Statement by David Pruett
August 20, 2008

On Monday, August 18, I resigned as a director of the National Horse Show Commission. I intended to do this quietly and not distract from the upcoming National Celebration. The NHSC has been a large part of my life the past several years and I’m proud of the accomplishments we have made, therefore my decision to resign is not one that I have taken lightly. The last couple of years we have had the opportunity to be proactive and “do the right thing” willingly and not because we were forced to do so by outside groups or the media. In my opinion, as of late, the NHSC has not taken this opportunity. Decisions by the NHSC board and statements made in executive session have become public knowledge. This may be common practice in the industry but not by me.

[ChocoMare]

Aha! Thanks for the tip ;)

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Okay...maybe this is a difference in breeds, disciplines, whatever.

I have been taught that when a horse licks and chews the bit, it is relaxation and acceptance (and you can absolutely feel the difference, in the saddle, when they are not relaxed). Salivation is good because it means that the horse is relaxed through the poll and jaw, and not stuck or resistant or in pain, but accepting. When I'm done riding, my horse's back (I hope!) is relaxed, he's relaxed (though maybe ready for a roll), and by his stance and his eye you can tell whether it has been a positive session. I can understand that in "high gear" - racing, a jumping course, a difficult test, barrels - whatever - that a truly competitive horse gets on a high - but still - you can tell the difference between a good high and a bad one.

So - asking for enlightenment - what do these horses look like after the ride? Are they willing to take the bit the next time you tack up? Go into the arena? Start their work in a positive frame of mind? because if they are, then I would say that it's working.

So can someone tell me? I will add, that although I ride dressage, and supposedly these are the basic tenets, I have been to plenty of shows and clinics where this does not happen with some horses...but surely, shouldn't that be the goal?

[Nun Ya]

There is no rule. I've asked her about 10 times about this over the last 3 years, and she always sputters "Yeah well, buy the book." She doesn't know the rules and apparently none of the other walking horse people do either because they never are forthcoming with any rules. So they either don't exist, or the judges don't care and don't enforce them anyway.

There "might" be rules in the lite shod devisions, but I've been told there are none in the padded divisions. So I would think some people here would be jumping at the chance to prove me wrong. So please do.

I don't cater to you on any of your tirades. You do not really want to know and even if I did tell you, you would say it wasn't true. This is your witch hunt not mine and if you want to know the rules I have instructed you as where you can obtain your very own copy of the NHSC rule book you just don't want to pay for your own copy.

[Nun Ya]

Okay...maybe this is a difference in breeds, disciplines, whatever.

I have been taught that when a horse licks and chews the bit, it is relaxation and acceptance (and you can absolutely feel the difference, in the saddle, when they are not relaxed). Salivation is good because it means that the horse is relaxed through the poll and jaw, and not stuck or resistant or in pain, but accepting. When I'm done riding, my horse's back (I hope!) is relaxed, he's relaxed (though maybe ready for a roll), and by his stance and his eye you can tell whether it has been a positive session. I can understand that it "high gear" - racing, a jumping course, a difficult test, barrels - whatever - that a truly competitive horse gets on a high - but still - you can tell the difference between a good high and a bad one.

So - asking for enlightenment - what do these horses look like after the ride? Are they willing to take the bit the next time you tack up? Go into the arena? Start their work in a positive frame of mind? because if they are, then I would say that it's working.

So can someone tell me? I will add, that although I ride dressage, and supposedly these are the basic tenets, I have been to plenty of shows and clinics where this does not happen with some horses...but surely, shouldn't that be the goal?


I have heard the same thing about the chewing and saliva means that the horse has accepted the bit and is supposed to be relaxed. I have also heard that is why so many people in dressage like to put salt in the mouth to make the horse "foam" and appear as if he is happy in the mouth.

I have never had a horse not take the bit. Most horses will even lower their heads for the handler to put the bridle on.

[Auventera Two]

Ah, and so it is settled. There is NO RULE on bits and anything goes. Thanks for clearing that up. ;)

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Put SALT in their mouths? WHOA NELLIE!!

I give Ted one peep before the bridle, and one peep afterwards, and I always clean the bit and bridle after use. If I gave him salt, he'd refuse!

[ChocoMare]

From TWHSA's site: http://www.twhsa.com/Forms%20and%20Docs/TWHSARulebook.doc

Would these rules, then, apply only to breed shows?

[europa]

The only thing I have found is that 9.5 is the maximum for shanks....that is all. Correct me if I am wrong because I am too cheap to pay anything to an association that is made up of fat men over 40 riding 2 year olds! OOPS that was my outside voice wasn't it? HA HA ME BAD

[Nun Ya]

From TWHSA's site: http://www.twhsa.com/Forms%20and%20Docs/TWHSARulebook.doc

Would these rules, then, apply only to breed shows?

No. Only NHSC rules apply

[Nun Ya]

The only thing I have found is that 9.5 is the maximum for shanks....that is all. Correct me if I am wrong because I am too cheap to pay anything to an association that is made up of fat men over 40 riding 2 year olds! OOPS that was my outside voice wasn't it? HA HA ME BAD

Well, then you really don't want to know.

[Nun Ya]

Ah, and so it is settled. There is NO RULE on bits and anything goes. Thanks for clearing that up. ;)

:lol: You are so laughable.

[trubandloki]

Well, then you really don't want to know.

You do realize that you are the one being difficult here, dont you?

I have no dog in this fight. I do the boring 'ol hunter thing, well I did, right now I just pay for food and farrier work.

I was honestly wanting to see the rule, but you get all snarky with anyone who asks.

If you know the rule just post it or send me a PM that is fine.

I am really just curious.

Gosh, why do some things have to be so difficult?

[Nun Ya]

You do realize that you are the one being difficult here, dont you?

I have no dog in this fight. I do the boring 'ol hunter thing, well I did, right now I just pay for food and farrier work.

I was honestly wanting to see the rule, but you get all snarky with anyone who asks.

If you know the rule just post it or send me a PM that is fine.

I am really just curious.

Gosh, why do some things have to be so difficult?


As I said earlier IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW pm me and I will talk with you about the rule. The person I have a problem with is A2 and that is only because I know her agenda. I do not get "snarky" with everyone who asks

[talkofthetown]

I do not know any place that in the non-breed hunter jumper world that a kimberwick is industry standard. Not even close. They are VERY frowned upon by the hunter jumper world.

Breed show people, sure. But not the hunter jumper world. Do a search in the H/J section.



Someone asked what all the rings on the original bit were for, I have to wonder that too. Do you suppose it is just to look way cool or something? Instead of a boring long shank with a single ring on the end.

I really don't want to get involved in the off-topic arguments, but I saw this and wanted to put in my 2 cents.

FWIW, I started riding h/j, but switched early on to eventing. When I started at the local h/j barn, as a 5/6 year old, I wasn't taught balance, holding on with your legs, light contact, all that jazz...we were put on barn sour lesson ponies, in pelhams, kimberwicks, twisted wire, whatever it took to keep the ponies under control for the too-green riders, and we careened around the ring. Not a very subtle way to ride, but hey, if you didn't get bucked off or ran away with, you were doing something right, right? My first pony, when my parents bought him, was in either a pelham or kimberwick (don't remember which one, trainer wouldn't teach what bit did what- I didn't even know how to do the curb chain). As soon as I took him on and he got out of the lesson program, and out of the harsh bit, he started doing wonderfully.

Sorry, I rambled a bit, my point was that those bits in the h/j world might not be popular, and it might not even exist in trainers who are actually qualified to train (mine was not). But it's definitely there.

[rugbygirl]

To further DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho", the licking and chewing also indicates a relaxed jaw. The horse accepts contact and is light in the mouth.

When a horse's mouth gapes, it is beacause they are avoiding pain...not by relaxing. They can't get away from those long-shanked curbs on the tongue and bars...which also poke them in the palate if they have high/narrow ports. With a jointed mouthpiece, you get pinching of the tongue and sometimes a "nutcracker" effect on the palate.

A shank multiplies the force transmitted through the reins (on a solid mouthpiece, slightly different action on a jointed mouthpiece). The reins can appear to be held lightly, while a ton of force is acting on the mouth. This is the concept Western Pleasure works on. The lightest touch of a rein is transmitted to the horse's mouth...enabling the rider to maintain a long, loose rein and still achieve proper contact.

While it is true that the bit is only as harsh as the hands using it...it must be remembered that the same amount of contact on a shankless bit is multipled many times by the shanked variety.


There are all kinds of ridiculous bits on the market...the truth of it is, you shouldn't need any of them if you know how to ride properly. Likewise, if you know how to ride properly, you can probably ride effectively and kindly in most any bit.

I recognize that a curb bit is a better choice for saddleseat "frame"...the action is better suited to that horse's way of going. I also recognize that for many riders, the shanks are mostly decorative (like in a lot of WP). If you need 14" shanks to ride your horse...you belong on the ground.

[Auventera Two]

The only thing I have found is that 9.5 is the maximum for shanks....that is all. Correct me if I am wrong because I am too cheap to pay anything to an association that is made up of fat men over 40 riding 2 year olds! OOPS that was my outside voice wasn't it? HA HA ME BAD

You don't want to support this? Why not? :confused: ;) By the way, this is a 2 yr old colt. That dude could lock his spurs under the horse's belly.
http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/shows/trainers08/65-28.jpg

Or this one! :eek: Another 2 yr old
http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/shows/trainers08/65-15.jpg
Wow, how exactly does one give leg cues?

http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/shows/trainers08/72-07.jpg

Wouldn't common sense tell you that if you can snag your horse in the sheath, then perhaps you are too big for said horse? :rolleyes:

Teenie babies (yearling) in shoeing packages already. Nice.
http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/shows/trainers08/42-18.jpg

[Nun Ya]

To further DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho", the licking and chewing also indicates a relaxed jaw. The horse accepts contact and is light in the mouth.

When a horse's mouth gapes, it is beacause they are avoiding pain...not by relaxing. They can't get away from those long-shanked curbs on the tongue and bars...which also poke them in the palate if they have high/narrow ports. With a jointed mouthpiece, you get pinching of the tongue and sometimes a "nutcracker" effect on the palate.



Like in the photos linked here?


http://horsesforlife.com/RollkurPictogram

[Auventera Two]

Here we go! A realy "happy" horse going in his 5 ring elevator! This is a 3 yr old.
http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/shows/trainers08/49-41.jpg

COMPARE that bit to the bit shown in the original post on this thread. This bit has even MORE shank length than the one originally posted!! :0 Sheesh

Wonder if the dumbasses can even detect that their horse has long a winter hair coat in the middle of summer. Gee might be a medical problem that needs treatment. Maybe we should be taking the horse to the vet clinic instead of the trainer's show.

[europa]

Makes me have a sudden urge to cry out

"There's your horse judge......There's your winner" WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I was at a show with my Uncle once (he gleefully regales me with his stories of hot mustard love.......he is actually proud of what he did to his horses) and a rider with a sequined number 00 rode but gettin it as they say and someone shouted " double ought (sp?) there's your winner judge"...............I about spewed my coffee laughing.

And you haven't lived until you attend a speedracking class where they lay almost backwards on their horses! What a hoot!!

[Auventera Two]

Like in the photos linked here?


http://horsesforlife.com/RollkurPictogram

NO self respecting dressage rider endorses this kind of abuse. There i a major portion of dressage riders today who would love to see Anky and Sjef tossed out of the dressage ring on their ears. I rode dressage most of my life, and what is shown on that page is NOT dressage. Period.

And again, thanks for making my point. We, in other disciplines, are perfectly capable of calling foul on the few idiots within our sport that ruin the image for everyone. But you just keep laying down with the dogs. Why do you not make an effort to separate yourself from them?

[Nun Ya]

Teenie babies (yearling) in shoeing packages already. Nice.
http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/shows/trainers08/42-18.jpg

Those are not "shoeing packages" It is a yearling show which is a keg shoe and a flat pad. There are weight limits and they cannot have anything more that 1 inch of pad and that is including the shoe. :rolleyes:

Again this is not about "big men" on 2 year olds or what style shoe a yearling is wearing, it is about bits. Try to focus and stay on track. ;)

[sublimequine]

I've given up on trying to keep this on track. If you folks wanna holler and throw rocks at each other like children on a playground, go ahead. I'm not gonna be the responsible adult to break you up and put you in time out. :lol:

[europa]

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orderpage.aspx?pi=072U002X020206&po=206

How do they go from this......to what the Big lick horses do without employing every illegal contraption they can think of?

[Nun Ya]

NO self respecting dressage rider endorses this kind of abuse. There i a major portion of dressage riders today who would love to see Anky and Sjef tossed out of the dressage ring on their ears. I rode dressage most of my life, and what is shown on that page is NOT dressage. Period.

And again, thanks for making my point. We, in other disciplines, are perfectly capable of calling foul on the few idiots within our sport that ruin the image for everyone. But you just keep laying down with the dogs. Why do you not make an effort to separate yourself from them?


Again I am confused by you. I thought you did endurance.

Now you are also a dressage expert and a TWH expert, OHH YEAH and you used to show QH's. WOW :wow: You are really an expert on all breeds and disciplines. A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.


But for humor.... since you know. If this is "bad image" in the dressage horse world, why are these photos taken in the show/warm up ring??? Why wouldn't these people be confronted with the way these horses have pure foam spilling out their mouths, noses pulled back to their chests, whites showing in their eyes, and teeth bared. It looks like their jaw will break into. Why doesn't someone do something???

[trubandloki]

Nun Ya, I had no opinion of you before this thread but I must say that you do a fine job of making yourself look like a stubborn individual who does not bother to read the posts before she responds.

Read what A2 said:

I rode dressage most of my life, and what is shown on that page is NOT dressage.

No where does it say what type of riding is going on now.

BTW, I have no clue what style of riding A2 does.

It just seems like you are fighting for the sake of fighting, after you said you were done with this topic.

[FancyFree]

It is a yearling show which is a keg shoe and a flat pad.

Wait. They put shoes on yearlings? :eek:

[europa]

Back to the bit.....did you notice that that bit is under the STANDARD bits they offer! HA HA

Also....you might want to pick up a pair of these to go with it in case the big brute backs off too much from the bit and you need to get that BIG LICK A GOIN

http://grissombits.com/images/Large/Mens-Wire-Spurs-306.jpg

Of course none of this ever happens and no one buys these. RIIIIGGGGGHHHHHTTTT

Popcorn anyone?

[Simkie]

Wait. They put shoes on yearlings? :eek:

They put shoes and "only" an inch of pad on yearlings :(

http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/shows/trainers08/42-18.jpg

[Achterbahn]

Actually what is shown on that page is very much competition dressage. It is something that some are fighting in the industry, but it is not anything that the FEI have made a real definitive statement about. If you're interested, do a search on rollkur to see the debates about it on the dressage board. Lot's of interesting reading.

Correct me if I have the wrong person, A2, but I believe A2 currently is training her horse(s) in endurance and is going to school for some sort of barefoot hoofcare (not sure which method - I don't remember).

Call me crazy, but there are "weird" things that happen in every facet of the horse industry. Racehorses are backed and run early (with shoes) in order to be ready for the races, QH's have the futurities, which start horses very early, hunters and jumpers have performance enhancing drugs, and Dressage has rollkur. Some of these things are accepted in the industry, some are against the rules, or the spirit of the rules, some rules are still broken. It's everywhere.

So instead of villifying, I'd rather learn about the mechanics and the intent. I don't understand the TWH industry at all - nor Saddleseat/Saddlebreds/Arabs - I'm interested in learning, and then can make my own judgement regarding how I feel about certain things that are commonly accepted in any of those industries.

[Gnalli]

Here we go! A realy "happy" horse going in his 5 ring elevator! This is a 3 yr old.
http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/shows/trainers08/49-41.jpg

COMPARE that bit to the bit shown in the original post on this thread. This bit has even MORE shank length than the one originally posted!! :0 Sheesh

Wonder if the dumbasses can even detect that their horse has long a winter hair coat in the middle of summer. Gee might be a medical problem that needs treatment. Maybe we should be taking the horse to the vet clinic instead of the trainer's show.



UMMM, the Trainers Show is in MARCH !!!! It is still COLD then!

[Gnalli]

Nun Ya, I had no opinion of you before this thread but I must say that you do a fine job of making yourself look like a stubborn individual who does not bother to read the posts before she responds.

Read what A2 said:



No where does it say what type of riding is going on now.

BTW, I have no clue what style of riding A2 does.

It just seems like you are fighting for the sake of fighting, after you said you were done with this topic.

(trust me, stay out of the way of of A2 and us TWH folks-we've been having this arguement for years.

Also, no one is showing with a 10,12 or 14 inch shank, or a double bridle. You would not get in the ring good before someone told you to go away.

[Moderator 1]

Yup, let's avoid the generalizations/bashing of disciplines and breeds (and each other!), and keep the discussion narrowed down to bits.

There are plenty of other threads containing debate about some of the more contentious sub-topics addressed here.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[Auventera Two]

UMMM, the Trainers Show is in MARCH !!!! It is still COLD then!

To stay on topic Gnalli - please address the use of the bits shown here, and the hands on the other ends of the reins.

[BCEVENTER]

When a horse's mouth gapes, it is beacause they are avoiding pain...not by relaxing. They can't get away from those long-shanked curbs on the tongue and bars...which also poke them in the palate if they have high/narrow ports. With a jointed mouthpiece, you get pinching of the tongue and sometimes a "nutcracker" effect on the palate.

On this note, I have a question maybe some of you can answer. My horse (not current show horse) has always carried her mouth open. Always, always, always. We have ridden her in a snaffle, a kimberwick, even with nothing in her mouth (ie.bareback w/halter) she still opens her mouth. We have had her back looked at and her teeth are done every 8 months or so becuase they were neglected before I had her. Could this just be habit? I think she was broke western with a huge curb and thats where it started.....but can this be carried with her through her whole life? She opens her mouth contact or not....

[Nun Ya]

Nun Ya, I had no opinion of you before this thread but I must say that you do a fine job of making yourself look like a stubborn individual who does not bother to read the posts before she responds.

Read what A2 said:



No where does it say what type of riding is going on now.

BTW, I have no clue what style of riding A2 does.

It just seems like you are fighting for the sake of fighting, after you said you were done with this topic.


This person talks on several threads about her riding. I am not referring to what she has said on this thread only


And FYI- I really could care less what your opinion of me is. ;)

[Gnalli]

But nobody is saying EVERYONE in the TWH industry is bad! Only that some are, and that the association hasn't gone far enough in protecting the horses.

I mean, the TWH people know that they're not going to be able to please most of us while they are still padding up the horses like that, but at least they could limit the use of these torture devices! People wouldn't be using them if they didn't bring more wins. Why not start having evidence of more humane training methods start counting for something in the show ring?

How far do you want them to go? They already have lifetime bans, FEDERAL fines and charges that can be applied, and inspectors hired by the govt. We had 97% compliance at the Celebration. Overall, this season, I believe the number was 98%. The Olympics didn't even have that amount of compliance.

By the way, the rule, I believe is 9 inch shanks.

[Nun Ya]

It just seems like you are fighting for the sake of fighting, after you said you were done with this topic.

Again..... lets think back........... I said I done with getting off subject, the person who started this thread asked for everyone to please stop getting off subject and I agreed. However, it seems as though no one remembers what the original post is about.

[amastrike]

On this note, I have a question maybe some of you can answer. My horse (not current show horse) has always carried her mouth open. Always, always, always. We have ridden her in a snaffle, a kimberwick, even with nothing in her mouth (ie.bareback w/halter) she still opens her mouth. We have had her back looked at and her teeth are done every 8 months or so becuase they were neglected before I had her. Could this just be habit? I think she was broke western with a huge curb and thats where it started.....but can this be carried with her through her whole life? She opens her mouth contact or not....
My horse has a habit of opening his mouth, though not to the extent of yours. I've finally got him to not open his mouth so much (no gadgets to do it; I even took the noseband off the bridle months ago). How long have you had her? Does she really truly have her mouth open ALL the time she's ridden? If so, I have no clue where to start, or even if it can be done.

[Gnalli]

Okay...maybe this is a difference in breeds, disciplines, whatever.

I have been taught that when a horse licks and chews the bit, it is relaxation and acceptance (and you can absolutely feel the difference, in the saddle, when they are not relaxed). Salivation is good because it means that the horse is relaxed through the poll and jaw, and not stuck or resistant or in pain, but accepting. When I'm done riding, my horse's back (I hope!) is relaxed, he's relaxed (though maybe ready for a roll), and by his stance and his eye you can tell whether it has been a positive session. I can understand that in "high gear" - racing, a jumping course, a difficult test, barrels - whatever - that a truly competitive horse gets on a high - but still - you can tell the difference between a good high and a bad one.

So - asking for enlightenment - what do these horses look like after the ride? Are they willing to take the bit the next time you tack up? Go into the arena? Start their work in a positive frame of mind? because if they are, then I would say that it's working.

So can someone tell me? I will add, that although I ride dressage, and supposedly these are the basic tenets, I have been to plenty of shows and clinics where this does not happen with some horses...but surely, shouldn't that be the goal?


Yes, after a ride, they are tired, but they are relaxed. They don't give us fits when we go to saddle them up the next time, nor fight when they go to the ring. They are not mistreated, and the horses know it.

BTW, someone mentioned leg cues---we don't use the lower leg to cue TWH.

[Nun Ya]

To stay on topic Gnalli - please address the use of the bits shown here, and the hands on the other ends of the reins.


That's RICH coming from you, how about taking your own advise.

[BCEVENTER]

My horse has a habit of opening his mouth, though not to the extent of yours. I've finally got him to not open his mouth so much (no gadgets to do it; I even took the noseband off the bridle months ago). How long have you had her? Does she really truly have her mouth open ALL the time she's ridden? If so, I have no clue where to start, or even if it can be done.

I have had her for 5 years. Yes- it really is all the time. I actually had someone over at the barn that had never seen me ride outside of shows and we were just messing around and I hopped on with the halter and leadrope and BAM! Her mouth opens! I really do think it is habit and it is hugely ugly in the show ring becuase the judges think im reefing on her mouth. I don't know what else to try so looking for suggestions...

[TouchMeKnot]

In general, sincere TWH horsemen work very hard to put a good mouth on a horse and to keep it there by light steady contact without snatching or excessive pulling. The trainer I worked with that provided my foundation wouldn't even let us lead the horses using the reins; if you lead a horse to and from a workout area, you held the cavesson and put pressure on the nose, not the bit. We were also taught to keep steady, very light contact on the reins; and before the trainer would let us ride his horses, he had us practice pulling reins against his hands so he could feel how much pressure we were putting on the reins. He would have us keep adjusting until we put just a light contact on our horses. Only then did he let us ride.

I feel I trained with one of the best horseman in the world; and I have ridden at dressage barns, saddleseat and h/j barns, and NEVER did they do that "contact exercise" where they had that high commitment to teaching the appropriate contact in the reins BEFORE letting a student ride a show horse. I think that emphasizes how light the contact he taught us actually was; he didn't eyeball it from the center of the lesson area; he physically felt it with his hands and pulled back to show the appropriate amount of contact. That should give you an illuminating illustration of how a committed TWH trainer teaches his students. That is the highest commitment to teaching contact that I've ever found, and I've trained at many barns in different disciplines over the years.

He also emphasized steady contact, so that you are always communicating with the horse's mouth and you don't get caught in a situation where your reins are flapping and you end up snatching at the horse's mouth. He would take you down off a horse if you snatched at the mouth.

So, just because some riders use long-shanked bits and pull hard enough that the horse's mouth opens, that by no means is a sweeping description of our bitting methodology or our riding methodology. The rulebook does state that bleeding from the mouth must be penalized, and it does state that horses are ridden on a single rein.

Our horses are started on snaffle bits or in some cases a halter with reins just like any other young horse being backed for the first time, and we look for relaxation on the bit just as any other discipline does. Relaxation is especially important for gaited horses, because as they tense up, they get uneven in their gait and often start to pace. We are striving for a flat-foot walk and running walk with a headshake from the withers to the nose, and horses tensed in the bit do not shake their heads or their headshake is uneven. We have a saying in our industry that "if the horse isn't shaking his head, he isn't walking," meaning that he is tensed up and doing a stepping pace or rack or uneven, untimed walk.

So, relaxation is emphasized just as much if not more than in dressage, given that a student is training with a reputable TWH trainer. As the horses progress in their training, they transition to curb bits. I've never had a problem where there was any bleeding or damage done to my horses' mouths; however, I was taught by my trainer to check the mouth and tongue after EVERY ride to verify that there are no sores, blood, or callouses. So, yes, we ride with shanked bits, and YES, we are taught HOW to properly and safely ride with a shanked bit.

We have a term that we call a horse being "bridlewise," which means that the horse is well taught and clearly communicated with using the bit--not just a lot of pulling with a harsh mouthpiece. I've had a high commitment to working with trainers and show partners that value a good mouth and work to keep it good, and the first thing I evaluate in a trainer is how he handles the horse's mouth. This includes both his choice of starting bits, when he transitions to curb bits, what types of bits his show horses ride on, how much pressure he puts on the reins, how relaxed and rhythmic the horses are in their gait, and I look to make sure they have no fear of bit pressure because the trainer has shown steady, communicating contact.

Most of the Celebration-caliber riders not only have full time horse trainers, they also have riding coaches; and most of them know how to respect the power of a shanked bit, keep a steady hand, and work on having a steady seat such that they can have a steady hand. But yes, there are instances when a high-motor show horse gets out of control and the rider applies more pressure than usual. Then you see the raised head and opened mouth. However, seeing the horse raise it's head one time during a high-energy victory lap or in an out-of-control situation truly doesn't reflect the state of whole industry. The fact is that the photographer stands in one place in the ring, and snaps your picture as you go by. You might be in gait, your horse might be rearing up; he just snaps as you go by. So, in some cases, a horse with an open mouth is not the entire state of the horse's riding and training.

This picture-gathering activity of horse's with their mouths open is a single snapshot of a rider at one moment in the ring. It doesn't necessarily reflect the state of the entire industry nor does it reflect every trainer's commitment to a good mouth on a horse. There are some trainers that are very harsh to a horse's mouth and do resort to using long-shanked bits as short-cuts. I won't name names, but there are some trainers that I've seen yanking a horse so badly that if it were my horse, I would have met the trainer at the Exit Gate of the show ring and taken the horse home right there. I've also examined quarter horses and Arabs and other breeds that have had horrible callouses on their mouths because of the bits used. It is one of the first things I look at when buying a horse--what shape the horse's mouth is in.

We personally are very careful and we've had many conversations with the trainer as to what bits can be used and what the action of the particular bit is, where the hands should be at and how much contact should be applied. My horses are driven on snaffle bits for their carting work; however, they are ridden for show on a curb bit. My horses all lower their heads for the bridle, and they do relax on their bits.

I am posting this so that people understand that we do train just as intensively and with just as high commitment as any other discipline, and those striving for good horsemanship select trainers that only use as much bit as is needed for that phase of the horse's training. I've had trainers use an 8" shank on a horse for a few weeks, and then, as the horse learns and respects the communication, drop it down to a 6" or 4" shank for their amateur riders.

So, just making a lot of outraged noise at bits in catalogs and a few pictures that AV2 seems to have nothing better to do than look for bad examples of horsemanship rather than studying good ones doesn't really mean that you are making a positive impact for better training conditions for the TWH.

The fact is that those of us making the most impact are those of us who present horses to the trainers, specify the training methods and bits, and PAY to see the horses trained that way. For those of you who think and say we do nothing to oppose harsh training methods, bits, or soring, I can't imagine making a bigger or more committed statement than putting sound, compliant horses in the show ring with humane bits handled appropriately. My commitment to changing the walking horse world is a heck of a lot more than showing outrage at a potential training bit in a catalog; my horses are in the ring showing what can be done and we keep a tremendously high standard of care for our horses that I would match against anyone on this forum and feel confident I would come up ahead.

[Nun Ya]

Since we are on the subject of bits.

People are freaking out over the length of the shanks but I was wondering .......

What's the point in a double bridle?? Why would you need 2 bits on any horse??

There are in fact 2 bits in the mouth with two sets of reins being used right??

OHCH - that just seems like a lot going on at one time.

[Achterbahn]

Thank you TouchMeKnot for explaining - I really appreciate it.

[rugbygirl]

No Nun Ya.

Proper use of a double means that you ride most of the time with the curb disengaged. You can disengage it by rotating your hands slightly. It is usually a short-shanked curb.

There is also a small snaffle (bridoon) that is used to cue and collect the horse.

The curb is primarily used to remind the horse to keep his nose in...not to achieve "headset" but as a subtle cue.

go to sustainabledressage.com for more.

Check the Dressage forum...the FEI is looking at a rule change to allow riders to use snaffles at PSG level. :) It's a good suggestion, many riders and horses DON'T need a double.

[Simkie]

TMK, thank you for your post. It's very interesting. I just have one question about this part right here:

I am posting this so that people understand that we do train just as intensively and with just as high commitment as any other discipline, and those striving for good horsemanship select trainers that only use as much bit as is needed for that phase of the horse's training. I've had trainers use an 8" shank on a horse for a few weeks, and then, as the horse learns and respects the communication, drop it down to a 6" or 4" shank for their amateur riders.


Can you please explain what sort of horse needs an 8" shank and what you can accomplish with that bit that you can't accomlish with, say, a 4" shank? Especially when you are saying that trainers are so cautious and careful with the mouth? I'm just having a hard time thinking of ANY situation where an 8" shank would be necessary. :confused:

[trubandloki]

Great post TMK!
Thank you.

[Auventera Two]

I have had her for 5 years. Yes- it really is all the time. I actually had someone over at the barn that had never seen me ride outside of shows and we were just messing around and I hopped on with the halter and leadrope and BAM! Her mouth opens! I really do think it is habit and it is hugely ugly in the show ring becuase the judges think im reefing on her mouth. I don't know what else to try so looking for suggestions...

It does sound like an old habit she's just learned as a defensive mechanism and it's stuck with her.

Can you try lightly wrapping a section of ACE bandage around her lower nose/jaw - not to strap her mouth shut, but just to add a little resistance when she tries to open her mouth? I hate dropped nosebands, figure 8s, cranks, etc. but if you're trying to break a habit, maybe just a few rides with some resistance when she tries to gape her mouth might help? Somehow she has to learn that she doesn't have a harsh bit in her mouth so she doesn't have to act defensively. But I'm afraid if you just strapped her nose shut with a figure 8 or a dropped that she would become even more defensive and panicky. Maybe just the soft stretch of the ACE bandage would give her a little resistance without causing pain and defensiveness??

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

This may be a small thing. But, in keeping with what A2 posted: certainly I don't do rollkur. I use a Herm Sprenger double link snaffle, very mild. And I don't use a flash. If my horse is resistant and opening his mouth, I want to know about it. And in our case, if he does so, it's because I am doing something incorrect, and it does neither of us any good to hide that. Why not go with the lightest bit possible to achieve the desired result?

[Auventera Two]

Since we are on the subject of bits.

People are freaking out over the length of the shanks but I was wondering .......

What's the point in a double bridle?? Why would you need 2 bits on any horse??

There are in fact 2 bits in the mouth with two sets of reins being used right??

OHCH - that just seems like a lot going on at one time.

It is a lot and it's something that not every dressage rider agrees with. Modern day competition dressage is getting pretty far out there. A lot of people ride the lower levels or use dressage in their training program but don't show (like me.) I personally prefer bitless riding so I couldn't ever see myself putting a double bridle on any horse that belongs to me. Well, not to mention that none of my horses will ever be advanced enough to ever wear a double. :o

But like somebody else said, the curb rein on a double is usually not engaged. Also the bridoon (the snaffle) usually has a thinner mouthpiece and smaller rings than an ordinary snaffle so you don't have 4 pounds of metal in the horse's mouth. The shanks on the curb are very short there isn't a tremendous amount of leverage.

BUT - I totally agree with you that some big name competition dressage riders completely abuse the bridle and the horse's good nature. It's a major source of fights within the "dressage world" because some people support crank and spank and some don't.

[Nun Ya]

I just do not understand the idea of the double bridle.
I know Saddlebreds use them to and if you look at
the difference between a dressage horses head carriage and
a saddlebreds ...... theres a lot of difference.

I don't understand what they are intended to do. I must
give credit to anyone who can use the double bridle. I have a hard enough
time trying to focus using one set of reins and one bit, much less two!!!

Wouldn't it be the same a driving with two steering wheels?

[Achterbahn]

It's more like a clutch and a brake (for lack of a better term).

Most dressage riders use the double when the horse has progressed enough to require the refinement that the curb provides.

[BCEVENTER]

Don't quote me...but a double bridle is usually used to make a horse carry its head up. When you see the pics of the horses with the mouths gaping open and way over bent thats when it is being used in the wrong hands.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/windhaven/dressage-2.jpg

Notice up and in.

[Auventera Two]

I just do not understand the idea of the double bridle.
I know Saddlebreds use them to and if you look at
the difference between a dressage horses head carriage and
a saddlebreds ...... theres a lot of difference.

I don't understand what they are intended to do. I must
give credit to anyone who can use the double bridle. I have a hard enough
time trying to focus using one set of reins and one bit, much less two!!!

Wouldn't it be the same a driving with two steering wheels?

Different cues are directed through each bit to the horse to add another layer of refinement to the performance.

Rather than driving with 2 steering wheels, I think it's more like driving a standard transmission versus an automatic. You can more finely tune and control the vehicle's actions with a standard transmission than with an automatic.

If you REALLY want to know more, go to the dressage board and open up a new thread. There will be plenty of trainers, riders, and judges there to explain it to you down to minutia. It is above my paygrade. ;)

As I said, I don't exactly agree with the double bridle because I personally prefer riding without a bit at all. Each person has their own preferences. I don't think it is abusive to ride with a bit if it's done tactfully and with common sense, but I just prefer to go without one if I can. I do not like the idea of metal laying across the tongue and bars of the mouth, possibly hitting the teeth, or pinching the lips. I want my horse to eat and drink freely on the trail when I'm out there riding for hours at a time. I want to be able to unsnap a rein from the hack ring and snap it to the halter ring and tie my horse up to a tree so I can go pee or sit down for a little break. Going bitless just works for me. But it's not possible for most show horses.

[amastrike]

This may be a small thing. But, in keeping with what A2 posted: certainly I don't do rollkur. I use a Herm Sprenger double link snaffle, very mild. And I don't use a flash. If my horse is resistant and opening his mouth, I want to know about it. And in our case, if he does so, it's because I am doing something incorrect, and it does neither of us any good to hide that. Why not go with the lightest bit possible to achieve the desired result?

Word, sistah. My horse loves his HS KK double-jointed dee ring (to the point that he opens his mouth and grabs it from me). There is no noseband on my bridle, and I absolutely will NOT put a flash or a crank on my horse (and it is incredibly difficult to buy a black bridle without either or both of those--I ended up buying mine in pieces to get what I wanted). If my horse is opening his mouth, it's because I'm doing something wrong, and I need to fix the problem, not hide it. And in a roundabout way, I view some resistance as a not-bad thing: If the horse is resisting, it means the horse CAN resist, which means when he does what I want, he's doing it because he is CHOOSING to do it, not because there's no choice. Of course, resisting means I'm going to ask again and again and again, but he has the option of saying NO every single time. I want to work with my horse, not against him. As far as rollkur... I have no use for it, and absolutely no respect for ANYONE who does that to a horse.


Nun Ya, I kind of agree that the double is a little pointless, and don't think anyone should be using a double unless they can get the same results with a snaffle. But the two bits are different. If the two steering wheels in your car did different things (and I totally can't think of an example), then there would be a reason to have two steering wheels. And why use the double if you should be able to get results with a snaffle? Because for the top levels of dressage, you have to. But just because there's a curb on your bridle doesn't mean you have to use it (or use it excessively).

[europa]

Unlike the double, the action of the snaffl e
aids in the development of lateral suppleness.
The snaffl e bit also is quite adequate to develop
collection and to make the horse honestly
“through” (working from his hindquarters, over
the back, and into the bit.) However, the action
of the curb does promote the highest degree
of engagement, the utmost articulation of the
joints of the hind limbs that is possible from an
individual horse. This is the “polish” that the
double bridle brings to the training, and thus
why in the past horses were not permitted to
compete in a double bridle until fourth level,
also known as the “pre FEI” level.

[Auventera Two]

Word, sistah. My horse loves his HS KK double-jointed dee ring (to the point that he opens his mouth and grabs it from me). There is no noseband on my bridle, and I absolutely will NOT put a flash or a crank on my horse (and it is incredibly difficult to buy a black bridle without either or both of those--I ended up buying mine in pieces to get what I wanted). If my horse is opening his mouth, it's because I'm doing something wrong, and I need to fix the problem, not hide it. And in a roundabout way, I view some resistance as a not-bad thing: If the horse is resisting, it means the horse CAN resist, which means when he does what I want, he's doing it because he is CHOOSING to do it, not because there's no choice. Of course, resisting means I'm going to ask again and again and again, but he has the option of saying NO every single time. I want to work with my horse, not against him. As far as rollkur... I have no use for it, and absolutely no respect for ANYONE who does that to a horse..

Great point. I want my horses to have an opinion. I want them to question me, or tell me they aren't happy, or they don't agree. They have a free will and spirit the same as any other living organism. I want them to always have the option of telling me what they think or what is bothering them.

That's how I figured out my endurance horse has ulcers. If I had cranked her nose in with a big bit and whaled on her with spurs and a whip to DEMAND that she stop spooking and acting like a fool, I'd have had no clue that there was a medical problem. But I've always paid attention to what she's telling me.

[TouchMeKnot]

Regarding using an 8" shank and then going back down to a 6" or 4" shank, this is a remedial situation, not the standard progression of starting horses in the bridle. We start with the snaffle bit , which communicates turning, slowing, and stopping. The horses are voice- trained at the same time for easy and whoa, so that very little bit pressure is needed. Once those basics have been established, as well as other basics of seat and leg pressure, the horse transitions to the curb bit. When the horses goes into his gaiting training, he is usually worked on a 4" or 6" inch shank to start with, and it is a matter of feel as to what the trainer selects based on where the horse is at in his training, the structure of the horse's mouth, and the responsivness of the horse. For example, a thinner mouthpiece is more severe; however, some horses, such as my horse Moe, has a very thick tongue and couldn't tolerate a thick or wrapped mouthpiece. So, he couldn't work in a thick mouthpiece, which is less severe because it spreads the pressure over a larger area. So, the structure of the horse's mouth is important as well as his attitude and responsiveness. Obviously for young horses, we have lesser expections of what they can achieve, whereas with a horse that has been in training for several years and is seasoned, we will have higher expectations of appropriate carriage and headset.

A snaffle bit puts pressure on the corners of the mouth and possibly the tongue or roof of mouth, depending on the mouth piece and the number of joints in the mouthpiece. The more joints the mouthpiece has, the more severe the mouthpiece is. The curb bit puts pressure at different places in the mouth, but also applies pressure under the chin and at the poll. The longer the shank, the more leverage (pressure) applied to these places. The horses are worked gradually in these training bits (short shanks) and progressively trained to eventually work in a frame where the head is set. It is the same mechanism as a dressage horse using the curb bit in a double bridle.

The situation I described of using an 8" shank is a remedial situation example. For example, our horse Flash has been showing for 3 years, brought up slowly and with great care. He was being ridden on a 6" inch shank bit, and went crazy a few months ago in the show ring. He got revved up and excited, and just ran through the bit and my husband had no control. Flash can gait at very high speeds and is a compact horse with quick movements, high energy and high motor, even when appropriately worked down before a show with an amateur rider. My show partner, who has more bitting experience than I have, tried a couple of different bits to reestablish communication and contact, but Flash got unruly and stopped respecting the pressure of the bits we chose. Therefore, he moved to an 8" shank to clearly communicate to Flash what the mouth pressure meant. He also used appropriate release techniques, releasing the pressure on the bit when Flash responded in the desired manner. We've now moved him back down to a 6" shank now that communication has been reestablished, and Flash is respecting the bit. We also made a change in the mouthpiece. Selecting the mouth piece again depends on the structure of the horse's mouth, and trial and error.

Why does a horse need a 6" inch shank vs. a 4" inch shank? It just depends on the horse. Most trainers use as short a shank as needed, because as I mentioned before, people generally look for a horse with a good mouth, and it is very easy to ruin a good mouth. However, you can't really know what shank length suits a finished horse best until you work with that particular horse. We typically use 6" inch shanks in our show horses, but that doesn't mean that a horse comes along that needs a different length.

We've never had need to ride a horse on more than an 8" inch shank. If the horse is showing that little amount of respect for the bit, he needs to go back to basics in training and work forward again or finish remedial training before getting back in the show ring. We bit the horse in a bitting rig, and teach him to release to pressure and work in a frame by using side reins, just like any other discipline. I can't change the fact that some people show in longer-shanked bits; most of the horses at the Celebration were well-prepared, especially in the amateur classes. Most of the amateurs rode their mounts very well. I wasn't impressed with the preparation of the horses in the trainer's classes at all. Just because a trainer rides a particular way does not mean that everyone in the industry approves it or that it represents the state of a finished horse. There were several horses that tied very high that were rooting in the bridle and their noses were in the air, and they weren't showing the long, nodding headshake that should be part of the walking horse's gait. I didn't think they should be tied but judging at the Celebration is highly political.

If you have never ridden a high-motor, fully conditioned, high energy show horse that gets excited in the ring, you might not be capable of comprehending why remedial bit work is needed to reestablish communication and keep the rider safe while doing so. We make liberal use of both carting and work in the bitting rig so that the horse learns to respond to pressure consistently without being confused by rider mistakes and inconsistencies. So, we make every effort to reestablish communication without using excessive force, and eventually, the horses respond to the small adjustments of height of the hands and squeezing of the fingers.

[Achterbahn]

"That's how I figured out my endurance horse has ulcers. If I had cranked her nose in with a big bit and whaled on her with spurs and a whip to DEMAND that she stop spooking and acting like a fool, I'd have had no clue that there was a medical problem. But I've always paid attention to what she's telling me. "

I think you overestimate your ability to bully a horse through the use of a tool.

I've ridden horses who were bullied through medical pain and for the most part they went straight up or down (had one that literally would lay down because he had been pushed so hard). Took a lot of rehab to convince him that it probably would serve him well to NOT lay down once the issues were corrected while he was in my care.

So A2, you advocate for no bit whatsoever and no shoes, it makes sense to me that you are completely outraged at the TWH industry. However, since most of the ODG's of dressage, including the Spanish Riding School of Vienna (arguably the most classical dressage of classical dressage) use(d) the double bridle (including this rather long shanked bit on this lovely fellow in capriole http://www.austria-trips.com/Vienna/Spanish-Riding-School-Spanische-Reitschule.jpg) I think there might be a middle ground here for discussion...

[Auventera Two]

Um, that's why I said that my PERSONAL preference is to go bitless when possible. I've used bits on my horses and will do so again if the need should arise. What other people do is their business, as long as it isn't animal abuse.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I have never ridden a saddlebred in a show ring (I've been on some, but that was riding other friends' horses). I have been on my boy at shows, and he is always pumped, since I believe he genuinely lies to compete. And he is also an OTTB, and I have been on him (once - I'm too chicken to do it again!) when I let him go full throttle on a trail. But we've never used anything but that snaffle.

I don't think I'll ever use a double - largely because I'm dyslexic enough as it is, I can't imagine 4 reins.

[Achterbahn]

4 reins isn't so hard - I have used a pelham with quite a few horses and it's not all that bad. It takes a little bit of getting used to, but it's like driving a stickshift, once you get used to it, it comes to you automatically.

A2 - I wasn't arguing with you - I was just saying, I see where you are coming from :) Maybe I didn't put enough smilies to emote how I was trying to say it *laughing*

Abuse is a difficult thing to measure - is a crop abusive? It can be, but there are times when it can save a horse's life.

The tool itself isn't abusive, it's how it is used that is or isn't.

[cordial]

"That's how I figured out my endurance horse has ulcers. If I had cranked her nose in with a big bit and whaled on her with spurs and a whip to DEMAND that she stop spooking and acting like a fool, I'd have had no clue that there was a medical problem. But I've always paid attention to what she's telling me. "

I think you overestimate your ability to bully a horse through the use of a tool.

I've ridden horses who were bullied through medical pain and for the most part they went straight up or down (had one that literally would lay down because he had been pushed so hard). Took a lot of rehab to convince him that it probably would serve him well to NOT lay down once the issues were corrected while he was in my care.

So A2, you advocate for no bit whatsoever and no shoes, it makes sense to me that you are completely outraged at the TWH industry. However, since most of the ODG's of dressage, including the Spanish Riding School of Vienna (arguably the most classical dressage of classical dressage) use(d) the double bridle (including this rather long shanked bit on this lovely fellow in capriole http://www.austria-trips.com/Vienna/Spanish-Riding-School-Spanische-Reitschule.jpg) I think there might be a middle ground here for discussion...

I have been in Spain at the Spanish riding school and have seen those wonderful horses, but A2 probably wouldn't like them either as they have on a bit, shoes and a saddle. Go Figure

[europa]

Excuse me are we equating the Spanish Riding School with TWHs....I have heard everything now! PULEZ

[cordial]

Excuse me are we equating the Spanish Riding School with TWHs....I have heard everything now! PULEZ

EXCUSE ME....I was responding to the post about the Spanish horses, and she was talking about them using double reins.....I was just commenting on the fact that A2 wouldn't agree with her post. I said nothing about TWH's. But now that you bring this up, and I have seen both in a show ring (and you haven't) ......both breeds are magnificant. So before you start crap read the post ........!!!!!!!!!

[Achterbahn]

Um, actually the SRS is out of Austria - but no matter - they are unbelievable critters :) Classically trained and their riders are just amazing. I was stunned to see the polish on the crystal chandeliers (how DO they keep those clean in an indoor - that's a project that I want to see how they manage :) )

So okay, we have two separate schools of thought here - Dressage with the concept of starting in a snaffle and moving up to refinement, and TWH's with the same start, but then occasionally they will use a stronger shanked bit on a horse who is remedial for one reason or another. Anything outside of the 9" bit is illegal for showing, and the very very light use of hand is used in this tradition of riding.

Is that what I'm hearing?

[Achterbahn]

Sure - why not compare them? Since we're comparing different uses of a shanked bit? Comparisons mean - pointing out differences and similarities - a similarity is a shanked bit, differences include the double bridle and the goal of the SRS horse vs. the TWH in terms of how they move and what they request of the horse.

So they are different things, right? The classically trained dressage horse is attempting to meet one goal, the TWH another. Doesn't mean you can't draw comparisons between how they get to those goals. *frown*

[Auventera Two]

EXCUSE ME....I was responding to the post about the Spanish horses, and she was talking about them using double reins.....I was just commenting on the fact that A2 wouldn't agree with her post. I said nothing about TWH's. But now that you bring this up, and I have seen both in a show ring (and you haven't) ......both breeds are magnificant. So before you start crap read the post ........!!!!!!!!!

Okay, so we'll hand out Reading Comprehension = F number 2 of the day! :rolleyes:

I said that my PERSONAL PREFERENCE for my PERSONAL HORSES is to not ride with a bit, if possible. I do trail and endurance riding and also mounted patrol, and it just makes more sense for me to be bitless. I ride for long hours and my horses need to EAT along the trail. To make my horses pack a bit for 4 hours or 6 hours, or more is too much, in my opinion. My personal preference. Nothing more.

I happen to absolutely love the Spanish Riding School and what they have done. If you've paid attention to any of my posts over the years, you would know that. If I were still showing dressage or jumping, of course I would ride in a snaffle.

God you guys are so obtuse it's unreal.

[europa]

First, I have been to Vienna and I lived in Europe so don't assume you are the only person to have seen them.

I live in Blountville Tennessee so if you think I don't know what goes on with how MOST people with appalling horse skills treat their TWHs think again. Personally, I hate it as I really think the breed should be given a halo to deal with the people that they do.

Now...........having said that I am sure there are also wonderful people who love, own and train these horse but if they are using pads and such like the BIG LICKERS...............NOPE.

The way those horses have been forced to move is GROTESQUE and utterly unnatural. As my father said the first time he saw on go....that is a caricature!

POPCORN ANYONE?

[Achterbahn]

I'm sorry A2, are you addressing me? Perhaps you misunderstand where I'm coming from.

You have talked about not using a bit because:

As I said, I don't exactly agree with the double bridle because I personally prefer riding without a bit at all.
and
Great point. I want my horses to have an opinion. I want them to question me, or tell me they aren't happy, or they don't agree. They have a free will and spirit the same as any other living organism. I want them to always have the option of telling me what they think or what is bothering them.



I was simply saying - when one comes from this position, I can SEE where you would be outraged over the shanks on some of these bits. It's another way of saying "I getcha girl"

I pointed out the SRS because that particular picture had quite a large shank (though not nearly as long as the TWH shank) on the stallion in question. Thereby pointing out that not everyone who uses a shanked bit is looking for a shortcut/easy answer and I'm certain that those horses have the option of telling them what they think or what is bothering them - it's part of being a good horseman and is in general very important.


I think it would be wonderful if all people and all horses could go bitless, bridleless, saddleless, shoeless and all horses could be happy too! I'm not advocating for abusive treatment in the least. I'm simply trying to ask some questions in order to have some sane and rational conversations about it instead of the whole thread turning into a giant pissing match about whose discipline is better.

I'm not sure why it is so difficult to have a rational discussion when this subject is brought up. I'm interested in having it because I'd like to LEARN. And you certainly can't change anyone's mind by bullying them, so isn't it a good idea to LISTEN first?

[cordial]

Um, actually the SRS is out of Austria - but no matter - they are unbelievable critters :) Classically trained and their riders are just amazing. I was stunned to see the polish on the crystal chandeliers (how DO they keep those clean in an indoor - that's a project that I want to see how they manage :) )

So okay, we have two separate schools of thought here - Dressage with the concept of starting in a snaffle and moving up to refinement, and TWH's with the same start, but then occasionally they will use a stronger shanked bit on a horse who is remedial for one reason or another. Anything outside of the 9" bit is illegal for showing, and the very very light use of hand is used in this tradition of riding.

Is that what I'm hearing?

The Royal Spanish School of riding is owned by the King of Spain himself and is in JerezIe La Frontesce, Spain. The Horses that they raise ,train and exhibit are Andalusians----much the same as the Royal school in Vienna. We spent two days there and I will never forget the beauty of those wonderful animals. Sorry for the mix-up!

[Achterbahn]

Ahhh europa, I have too - lived there as well - perhaps we could have a sidebar as to where in europe you lived and for how long. :) I hope you weren't asserting that I was saying that I was the only one who had seen them - I was waxing lyrical about how incredible they were and my post was correcting cordial about the location of the SRS.

I've seen bad things in the H/J , Dressage & Eventing worlds too (which are my worlds), but it doesn't make me want to stop all H/J & Dressage activities - it makes me want to understand it and change it from the inside - which is what I think people are doing in the TWH industry - albeit not as fast as we'd all like.

But once again, the discussion was about shanked bits (and then later, the double bridle which includes a shanked bit), so we were discussing the mechanisms and in THAT regard, the comparisons are valid.

I don't understand why you insist on inciting a riot - do you really think that is going to be helpful? When people yell at you, don't you just yell right back?

It's only through sane and rational discussion that a mutual understanding can be had and real change can happen in the world.

</soapbox>
<disclaimer> I am not affiliated with the TWH industry in any way shape or form, I came here to discuss bits, their mechanisms and uses </disclaimer>

[Achterbahn]

Ahhh cordial - I gotcha - yea, truly amazing creatures. I wanted to have an Andy as a partner, but have not yet had the opportunity - I love the baroque breeds (might explain my attraction to drafty-crosses :) )

Okay, so back to the bits - did I sum it up correctly? Quoting myself here (man that feels weird)

So okay, we have two separate schools of thought here - Dressage with the concept of starting in a snaffle and moving up to refinement, and TWH's with the same start, but then occasionally they will use a stronger shanked bit on a horse who is remedial for one reason or another. Anything outside of the 9" bit is illegal for showing, and the very very light use of hand is used in this tradition of riding.

[europa]

No....unfortunately I have learned that those that protest the loudest and listen the least are ususally in bed with the offenders.

I get very upset over the TWH plight....see I live smack dab in the center of it and the parties that seem to be hating the most on me KNOW IT. I am just waiting for them to say the PADDING and the torture contraptions and the mustards and not allowing the horses outside EVER is wrong. But alas I will not hear it as they blissfully ignore the abuses in their sport.

I have ridden HJ all my life at many barns and in Europe and I haven't seen anything illegally done. I rode at nice places with nice people and horses that were well cared for. I know that abuses exist from evil people and if I see it I will say something. For instance if I saw someone poleing a horse I would speak up.

I also take issue with the QH people who have their horses soo bulked up that they have ruined their metabolisms and breed back to horrible diseases to add bulk and muscle.

I breed German horses and all mine are like children to me. I lived in Frankfurt for 2 1/2 years and my brother lives in Berlin so any chance I get I try and go back. Enough info on me.

[cordial]

First, I have been to Vienna and I lived in Europe so don't assume you are the only person to have seen them.

I live in Blountville Tennessee so if you think I don't know what goes on with how MOST people with appalling horse skills treat their TWHs think again. Personally, I hate it as I really think the breed should be given a halo to deal with the people that they do.

Now...........having said that I am sure there are also wonderful people who love, own and train these horse but if they are using pads and such like the BIG LICKERS...............NOPE.

The way those horses have been forced to move is GROTESQUE and utterly unnatural. As my father said the first time he saw on go....that is a caricature!

POPCORN ANYONE?

No, I wasn't referring to you about not being in Spain, but to our horse trainer Expert...A2
WE have flats-shod and padded horses both, and will continue to do so. We are not in Tenn. or in the South, but We love, and treat our horses like Royalty, I RESENT when people say that anybody that has a horse on pads is wrong. Boy, I wish I could take you and that MIss know it all and put you on a good, well-trained, and CLEAN padded horse. I would love to see your faces when you felt them gait...

[Moderator 1]

Again, let's tone down the "offense" and "defense" stances, and focus on sharing information and ideas about the purpose, function, mechanics, applications, etc. of leverage bits. ;)

Thanks again,
Mod 1

[cordial]

No....unfortunately I have learned that those that protest the loudest and listen the least are ususally in bed with the offenders.

I get very upset over the TWH plight....see I live smack dab in the center of it and the parties that seem to be hating the most on me KNOW IT. I am just waiting for them to say the PADDING and the torture contraptions and the mustards and not allowing the horses outside EVER is wrong. But alas I will not hear it as they blissfully ignore the abuses in their sport.

I have ridden HJ all my life at many barns and in Europe and I haven't seen anything illegally done. I rode at nice places with nice people and horses that were well cared for. I know that abuses exist from evil people and if I see it I will say something. For instance if I saw someone poleing a horse I would speak up.

I also take issue with the QH people who have their horses soo bulked up that they have ruined their metabolisms and breed back to horrible diseases to add bulk and muscle.

I breed German horses and all mine are like children to me. I lived in Frankfurt for 2 1/2 years and my brother lives in Berlin so any chance I get I try and go back. Enough info on me.

Where on this forum did any of the TWH people ever say any of the crap that you just described as "being okay" . No TWH person has ever said that was okay ....show me where anyone said anything close to that?????

[Achterbahn]

No....unfortunately I have learned that those that protest the loudest and listen the least are ususally in bed with the offenders.


Actually, that's not quite what I was saying *smile* What I was saying is that if you want to affect change, you need to listen and change things from the inside.

I get very upset over the TWH plight....see I live smack dab in the center of it and the parties that seem to be hating the most on me KNOW IT.

Wait a minute - who is hating on you? I think I'm confused by this statement.

Take a look at the USEF magazine and the suspensions for various acts in the H/J community. Take a look at the recent doping threads in the olympics. Those are "very nice barns" I would imagine.

I don't think anyone here is debating that soring is a very bad thing, are we?

Nun Ya? Cordial? TouchMeKnot?

Now, I think there is some debate on the pads, and that's something that certainly is debatable, but it's certainly not "natural" for a horse to jump a 4' fence either (in fact, most if given the opportunity if not trained for it will simply go around such things). It puts great concussive strain on joints and many show horses live inside and hardly ever go outside to be turned into the pasture.

[Nun Ya]

No....unfortunately I have learned that those that protest the loudest and listen the least are ususally in bed with the offenders.


ahhhh, now we see where you are coming from. You sure are protesting pretty loud and have not listened to anything.

Just because you live in Tn doesn't mean anything besides the fact that you live there. Because I live in GA does that make me a know it all in peach farming ????? How about if I lived a few miles down from a drag strip? Would that mean I know what goes on in a pit stop? I don't think so.

Have a good weekend everyone.

[Achterbahn]

Okay, so how light is the pressure used on this bit? Maybe a comparison of that would be useful. I thought it was interesting that you don't lead your horses by the reins - we do that all the time in a snaffle or pelham.

[Nun Ya]

I don't think anyone here is debating that soring is a very bad thing, are we?

Nun Ya? Cordial? TouchMeKnot?



No one ever defends the soring on here. No one approves nor uses those methods. But what we do defend is our padded horses and that in many people's eyes is the same thing. They tend to associate the padded horse as a sore horse just because he/she is padded. Not true.

[Nun Ya]

Okay, so how light is the pressure used on this bit? Maybe a comparison of that would be useful. I thought it was interesting that you don't lead your horses by the reins - we do that all the time in a snaffle or pelham.

That is very hard to put in words. The contact is enough to keep your reins from flopping but light enough not to pull the horses head in.
Walking horses need to be shaking their head, they are judged by how much head shake they have, if you had a death grip on the reins ( like what has been implied) the horse would not be able to "shake" his head or his head shake would be lessened and no one wants that. The more head shake you have the better. The tighter the reins the less head shake you get. Is this making sense??? If not I will try to go into it more on Monday.

I am not sure if many people can understand this because I think most horses do not have head shake or the movements of the tennessee walker so it is somewhat foreign.

[Achterbahn]

Do you move your hands in response to the head shake to keep the bit steady in the horse's mouth and keep from banging them?

[Xanthoria]

Better yet, can you show us a youtube etc video of a really good TWH going under saddle, with the head thing and so on, under a well-known/good rider in the TWH world - one that clearly shows the contact and the head shaking thing?

[sidepasser]

Here is my walking horse, Tyranna, all 17 hands and her very first show. The bridle she is in is called a tender touch bit and has very short shanks, she never opens her mouth and she always has her ears up. Still working on that headshake thing though - lol..

The lady riding her is a friend of mine that I bought the mare from. Also notice, no pads..uhm..no shoes either..she goes ok barefoot and has great hooves so why bother?

Now this mare is in dressage training to learn a few things like quit being a noodle and go straight and listen to cues as she was very, very green..actually she had maybe 3 months riding on her total when we went to the show just to see how she would do. She did get a little wide eyed, but hey..she's six, and had stood in a field for four years doing nothing before my friend bought her.

BTW - my friend shows twh's a great deal, none of hers are in long shanks and none are in pads, but all were from big name show barns that washed out and couldn't do the big lick. She retrains them for flat shod classes..and all go great for her. Happy horses she has.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/Sidepasser/Tyranna/TyrannaTuscaloosashow53108.jpg

She had never been in a group of horses before, but seems to have taken it in stride:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/Sidepasser/Tyranna/KristiandTyr53108-1.jpg

If she can get her front end coordinated with her back end, we might just have ourselves a very nice show horse but only if she can go barefoot..which out of almost 250 entries at that show, Tyranna and one yearling colt were the only ones I saw barefoot..kind of made the DQ laugh..but I didn't mind..we just wanted to have fun.

As for disposition and being afraid, scared, or what have you: this pic tells the story:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/Sidepasser/Tyranna/Tyrwithlittlegirl53108.jpg

that is a wee little girl reaching up to pet her..lol..that went on all day long..Tyr loves her peoples.

Loose reins are the thing when teaching her to relax a bit:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/Sidepasser/Tyranna/P5100049.jpg

I don't know much about the padded horses, but I do know about MY TWH, and she's a saintly gal that has got herself the good life and she knows it. She's gained a lot of muscle and weight since I've had her and is filling out, but still has her gangly days where she reminds me of a two year old baby.

Hoping dressage will take care of most of that with slow consistent work three times a week. We will see in another month how she's coming along. Maybe my noodle will turn into a straight line walking headshaker..we will see.

now back to your regular scheduled debate!