Stallion carrier for HERDA but still breeding - WWYD?

[AlterX]

It has recently come to my attention that a local stallion owner is continuing to breed a stallion that is a known carrier for HERDA. From my understanding this stallion has now produced at least to foals with the disease that had to be destroyed. The stallions HERDA status is not listed on the ads advertising his services so I am pretty sure that the mare owners are not aware. This stallion is a registered quarter horse. I am thinking of contacting the AQHA but I am not sure if they would do anything about it. This owner is not very well liked in the community and has burned many bridges in the horse community. This is not a person that I could approach about the situation. WWYD?

[Ambrey]

Does AQHA even ban breeding of HERDA carriers? Last I heard they did not, and many known carriers were breeding, and people were breeding to them without caring.

Just like HYPP, only with HYPP it's worse because some people think it's awesome :mad:

[county]

The AQHA can't do anything theres no rule against it though I hope soon there will be preventing breeding two carriers. If the mare owners don't care or don't bother testing their mares thats up to them. Both sire and dam have to be a carrier to produce a HERDA foal and then its 25% chance. I do think though that the stallion owner should make it known the stud is a carrier but it wouldn't stop me from breeding a non carrier to him. His not being liked by someone else wouldn't play a part in it regardless.

[AlterX]

Does AQHA even ban breeding of HERDA carriers? Last I heard they did not, and many known carriers were breeding, and people were breeding to them without caring.

Just like HYPP, only with HYPP it's worse because some people think it's awesome :mad:


This is what I was afraid of!! It blows my mind that anyone would knowingly continue to breed a horse being a KNOWN carrier for such a horrific disease and worse that the AQHA would condone it:mad:

[Dazednconfused]

I'm not familiar with the inheritance pattern of HERDA - if carriers only have one copy of the gene and do not display the disease themselves, then there should be no problem breeding to them - just never breed another HERDA carrier to him. You say "from my understanding" that he's produced two affected foals - also, maybe he produced these before the test was available, and the mare owner is now turning away other carriers? Also, just because it's not advertised doesn't mean they don't let people know in private - this was the case with SCID in Arabians for a long time - lots of people did not advertise they had a SCID carrier but they would let mare owners know privately. Unless you know 100% that's true...then no. You should also find out if AQHA has some prohibition on someone not notifying mare owners of their status - though you may have to be a member to file a protest.

[county]

Why would you not breed a carrier as long as its not to another carrier? Thats like saying you'd never have a HYPP N/N horse because of the disease.

[rugbygirl]

I would say all you could do is tell your friends to make sure their mares aren't carriers. There's nowhere to report it...but if you have proof, you can add the stallion's name to "the list" floating around the Yahoo Newsgroups on HERDA.

With QH stallions, it is buyer-beware...a mare owner with a linebred Poco Bueno mare ought to know the HERDA status of their mare AND the status of the linebred PB stallion they select. The owner of the stallion doesn't have to ADVERTISE the ERDA status, but if they are LYING about it, that's a different story.

[MySparrow]

I am not up on all of the HERDA genetics, but I would think, given the nature of the problem, that it would be sensible to breed it OUT rather than keep the genetic mutation going by continuing to breed to known carriers. No?

[ThreeBarPocoGal]

In a perfect world, anyone breeding to this stallion would ask to see results of the test and then not breed to him. Unfortunately there's not much you can do other than to be a constant pest to AQHA, APHA and all the rest of the breed registries to ban registration of carriers.

[Sandy M]

I'm not familiar with the inheritance pattern of HERDA - if carriers only have one copy of the gene and do not display the disease themselves, then there should be no problem breeding to them - just never breed another HERDA carrier to him. You say "from my understanding" that he's produced two affected foals - also, maybe he produced these before the test was available, and the mare owner is now turning away other carriers? Also, just because it's not advertised doesn't mean they don't let people know in private - this was the case with SCID in Arabians for a long time - lots of people did not advertise they had a SCID carrier but they would let mare owners know privately. Unless you know 100% that's true...then no. You should also find out if AQHA has some prohibition on someone not notifying mare owners of their status - though you may have to be a member to file a protest.


I believe HERDA is recessive, unlike HYPP which is dominant.

[merrygoround]

I am not up on all of the HERDA genetics, but I would think, given the nature of the problem, that it would be sensible to breed it OUT rather than keep the genetic mutation going by continuing to breed to known carriers. No?

County: Take note!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :yes:

[Dad Said Not To]

I believe HERDA is recessive, unlike HYPP which is dominant.

Exactly. It's NOT just like breeding an HYPP carrier; the offspring have NO chance of manifesting the disease if the mare isn't a carrier. Personally, I think that the stallion owner should be discussing HERDA status with people who choose to breed their mares to his stallion, but the stallion's carrier status alone should not determine whether or not he should ever breed.

[ridenslide]

As long as you don't breed to a carrier to a carrier, it is ok. There is a $30 test HERDA available.You should have you QH tested if it has Poco Bueno in the pedigree.:yes:
$30 vs hell!:no:
The AQHA is facing flak from $$$$ breeders,especially in the cutting world.
With careful breeding, and testing, there won't be an issue in the future. Without it...nastiness.:(


HERDA is not like HYPP, however.It is recessive. If you breed a carrier to a non-carrier, you will NOT get HERDA.
With HYPP, you have a 50/50 shot of the foal having HYPP if you breed a carrier to a non-carrier. :mad:
$30, that's it.:yes:
Test if you are breeding(IF needed)

People who are breeding should be aware of the disease themselves, and test accordingly. That way THEY can make an infomed decision.The stallion owner also should discuss it with the mare owners.

[county]

Merrygoround, take note of what? I've already stated I hope the AQHA does not allow two carriers to be bred.

I think it would be silly to ban the breeding of a carrier though there not going to pass it on unless the mare owner breeds a carrier to another.

[eqsiu]

Since the HERDA gene did not originate with poco bueno (unlike HYPP and impressive), any similarly related horses (i.e. that share common ancestors w/ pb) should be tested.

[eqsiu]

I've already stated I hope the AQHA does not allow two carriers to be bred.



Given the state of AQHA and where their money comes from, I doubt that will ever happen. Hell, you can still register HYPP N/H horses.

[katarine]

BACK to the OPs question...

I'd tell anyone I knew, that I KNEW was considering him, if they knew about HERDA. If they didn't, I'd explain it. If they were still interested in him...I'd tell them they'd better get THEIR mare tested, then, to be safe.

That's all you can do.

[MySparrow]

As long as you don't breed to a carrier to a carrier, it is ok. There is a $30 test HERDA available.You should have you QH tested if it has Poco Bueno in the pedigree.:yes:
$30 vs hell!:no:
The AQHA is facing flak from $$$$ breeders,especially in the cutting world.
With careful breeding, and testing, there won't be an issue in the future. Without it...nastiness.:(


HERDA is not like HYPP, however.It is recessive. If you breed a carrier to a non-carrier, you will NOT get HERDA.
With HYPP, you have a 50/50 shot of the foal having HYPP if you breed a carrier to a non-carrier. :mad:
$30, that's it.:yes:
Test if you are breeding(IF needed)

People who are breeding should be aware of the disease themselves, and test accordingly. That way THEY can make an infomed decision.The stallion owner also should discuss it with the mare owners.

Okay, help me out here. If you breed a carrier to a non-carrier, does the recessive HERDA mutation just go away? Or does it stand a chance -- by my reckoning a 50 percent chance -- of being passed on to an offspring?

If the answer is no, there is no chance it will be passed on, then no problem.

But if the answer is yes, there is a chance it will be passed on, then why perpetuate the mutation?

[ridenslide]

:eek:There is a 25% chance of it being passed on if you breed a carrier to a non-carrier.
It is just like the Lethal Overo White Syndrome in Paints.You just DO NOT breed two carriers! There is an easy way out.Get tested. There are PLENTY of NON carriers that go back to Poco Bueno.

I own a son of an HC positive horse,meaning he carries the HERDA gene.He's a gelding,so there is no need to test him, but I couldn't ride him if he were HC+.He is 11 now.:D


He does scar easily & it grows back roan, though, so that could be a side effect, or it could be because he is red.;)
Two of his sires first foals were HC+. That was 13 years ago.They learned quickly not to breed to those mares, even though they didn't know what they were dealing with.THe other 30 foals were fine. Now,13 years and hundreds of foals later, with HC- sons and daughters, THAT breeding program got rid of it AND produced a very successful sire!(That produces very talented,good-minded individuals that non-pros & youth can ride & can also win with the pros!)

I don't know the status of his broodmares.However, the foals are NOT HC+ that he breeds himself.
I would breed to the stallion myself, if I won the lottery, but at $7500 this year and probably going up next, I don't think so.:cry:

[Ambrey]

Why would you not breed a carrier as long as its not to another carrier? Thats like saying you'd never have a HYPP N/N horse because of the disease.

The reason I wouldn't breed a carrier is that most people do NOT get their horses tested before breeding, and testing isn't required for AQHA registry. So, mare owner breeds to stud, gets a carrier foal, doesn't test. Affected babies are then born, and the animals end up suffering (although we've had this discussion, and apparently you don't think animals suffer like humans).

You could say "only breed to tested non-carriers," but then you can't control what happens to all of the carrier babies that are born.

And gawd no, hypp N/H should not be bred.

[Ambrey]

Okay, help me out here. If you breed a carrier to a non-carrier, does the recessive HERDA mutation just go away? Or does it stand a chance -- by my reckoning a 50 percent chance -- of being passed on to an offspring?

If the answer is no, there is no chance it will be passed on, then no problem.

But if the answer is yes, there is a chance it will be passed on, then why perpetuate the mutation?

Carrier is carrier, meaning they are not symptomatic but carry the gene. That gene can be passed on... it's not a 25% chance, it's a 50%.

The 25% chance would be having a symtomatic horse from two carriers.

[Ambrey]

I believe HERDA is recessive, unlike HYPP which is dominant.

No, hypp is incomplete dominant- an N/H horse has a chance of symtomatic HYPP. An H/H horse is almost assured symptomatic hypp.

[county]

I don't think dogs suffer like horses either. Each species suffers in its own way.

If mare owners don't test theres nothing I can do about that if they don't care theres really no reason the stallion owner should that I can see. Everyone has their own right even though someone else may think differantly.

[Ambrey]

If mare owners don't test theres nothing I can do about that if they don't care theres really no reason the stallion owner should that I can see. Everyone has their own right even though someone else may think differantly.

And I can disagree and think they shouldn't do it. That's what makes it a free country.

I can also think that AQHA should prohibit breeding of HERDA and HYPP carriers.

When you're breeding, you're creating life and have some responsibility not to purposefully create life that has a greater than "normal" chance of suffering. That means not propagating a genetic defect that is common enough to make it probable that somewhere down the line, horses will suffer if you let it continue.

It also means not breeding horses for which there is little market or use (that's where I am right there with FHOTD).

[county]

I don't see where I said you couldn't disagree. In the title of your post it says " WWYD " I took that as a question I had no idea there could be a right or wrong answer.

[Ambrey]

I don't see where I said you couldn't disagree. In the title of your post it says " WWYD " I took that as a question I had no idea there could be a right or wrong answer.

It's not my post. I'm just an interested observer ;)

[county]

Ah my mistake I thought you were the one who started the thread.

[Plumcreek]

I can also think that AQHA should prohibit breeding of HERDA and HYPP carriers.

).


AQHA has been around and around the pond trying to disallow registration of horses with various genetic flaws. They cannot afford all the lawsuits that result, and now pick their battles very carefully.

[horsecrazykid]

Not so simple for people to test their mares because will they all know who they go back to if the horse is not on the papers? how many people know zippo pine bar was a herda carrier???

[Dazednconfused]

I am not up on all of the HERDA genetics, but I would think, given the nature of the problem, that it would be sensible to breed it OUT rather than keep the genetic mutation going by continuing to breed to known carriers. No?

I disagree. I researched HERDA a bit more after I posted - and like SCID it is an autosomal recessive. There is no reason whatsoever to reject carrier horses from the gene pool if they are otherwise excellent individuals. The Arabian breed would be missing some of its best, brightest, and most prominent individuals were carriers to be eliminated - The Real McCoy, Tornado, Versace, possibly Nariadni. I expect it's no different in the QH world. With a test, no HERDA affected horses ever need be born ever again. The gene pools in both breeds are huge - there is no reason to fear that this genetic problem would take over the breed.

Really, if you think about it - most conformational and temperamental faults are genetic - the only difference is, we don't have a test for those. Most sensible breeders would never eliminate a horse from breeding just because it had one fault, especially if it were outstanding in other respects.

In addition to those reasons - if you eliminate carriers, you may trade HERDA for something different and something worse. Not only that but you decrease the available gene pool.

In a perfect world, anyone breeding to this stallion would ask to see results of the test and then not breed to him. Unfortunately there's not much you can do other than to be a constant pest to AQHA, APHA and all the rest of the breed registries to ban registration of carriers.

Why would you ever ban registration of carriers? The disease is within the breed now - and the test was only recently developed. They are not affected by the disease, a test is now available, and no HERDA foal should ever be born again.

I believe HERDA is recessive, unlike HYPP which is dominant.

Appears so. :)

Exactly. It's NOT just like breeding an HYPP carrier; the offspring have NO chance of manifesting the disease if the mare isn't a carrier. Personally, I think that the stallion owner should be discussing HERDA status with people who choose to breed their mares to his stallion, but the stallion's carrier status alone should not determine whether or not he should ever breed.

Ditto.

Okay, help me out here. If you breed a carrier to a non-carrier, does the recessive HERDA mutation just go away? Or does it stand a chance -- by my reckoning a 50 percent chance -- of being passed on to an offspring?

If the answer is no, there is no chance it will be passed on, then no problem.

But if the answer is yes, there is a chance it will be passed on, then why perpetuate the mutation?

Again, if you eliminate carriers, you may trade HERDA for something different and something worse. Not only that but you decrease the available gene pool.

[Bluey]

More information here:

http://www.bringinglighttohypp.org/HERDA.html

[Ambrey]

But people aren't testing, HERDA status isn't on the papers, and as long as the QH breeders are being so lackadaisical about something that can be so awful for a horse, there's no way to justify continuing to breed carriers.


If a breeder had a carrier stallion and bred only to non-carrier mares, and had mare owners sign papers promising to test carrier status of offspring, etc. it would go a long way. But they don't.

If at least all QH had HERDA marked on registration, and breedings of carriers to carriers would be unregisterable, that would discourage them.

BTW

HERDA is characterized by abnormal skin along the back that tears easily and heals into disfiguring scars. The skin is loose, and hyper-elastic in affected horses. Symptoms typically don’t appear until the horse is subjected to pressure or injury on their back, neck or hips, usually around two yrs of age. However foals can show signs when injured, while other horses mature and only show signs in the joints.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HERDA#cite_note-HaveYouHeard-2) The expression of HERDA is variable, and the phenotypic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype) range of expression is still being determined.

[county]

People aren't testing? Maybe your not but that hardly means everyones not.

[Ambrey]

People aren't testing? Maybe your not but that hardly means everyones not.

Not everyone is. Until everyone is and there are no carriers being bred to carriers, the problem isn't solved.

[county]

I agree but thats in a perfect world and this isn't one. Unless a law gets passed to require it ( which I'd be shocked ) its never going to be 100%. I'm sure the AQHA would love to just make it a rule and like I said I'd love to see it but after the ET lawsuit they are very careful what they try to pass as far as limiting peoples right legally. Tx. has one of the strictest Right To Free trade laws on the books which the AQHA found out after spending a very large sum of money.

[ttldr1]

Haven't read all of the responses but the short answer is there is nothing you can do. AQHA has not taken a stand on breeding HERDA positive horses so contacting them about this breeder still breeding thier positive stallion wil do you no good.

http://www.bringinglighttohypp.org/HERDA.html

If the mare owners are breeding thier HERDA positive mares to stallions that they do not know the status of (or don't care) they are just as guilty as the stallion owner for propigating the disease.

Just like in the paint world when a OLWS carrier breeds to a carrier they will almost always get a lethal white foal but to some it is still worth the risk.

[county]

Almost always get a lethal white? 25% isn't what I'd call almost always.

[ThatIrishTemper]

Question time...

If a carrier is bred to a non-carrier, isn't there still a chance that the resulting foal would also be a carrier without showing symptoms? Then what happens when someone wants to breed THAT foal?

Honestly, I would never do any business PERIOD with someone knowingly breeding a HERDA carrier. That mutation is just horrible and to knowingly breed a stud (which SHOULD BE A GELDING) is just plain irresponsible IMO.

[Ambrey]

If a carrier is bred to a non-carrier, isn't there still a chance that the resulting foal would also be a carrier without showing symptoms? Then what happens when someone wants to breed THAT foal?

Yes, a 50% chance.

If a carrier is bred to a carrier, there is a 25% chance the horse will have HERDA, a 50% chance it will be a carrier, and a 25% chance it will be free of the gene.

eta:

http://www.thehorse.com/images/content/hc_herda/hc_herda2.html

'nuff said.

[Ambrey]

Just like in the paint world when a OLWS carrier breeds to a carrier they will almost always get a lethal white foal but to some it is still worth the risk.

Breeding OLWS to OLWS makes NO sense. The chances of a healthy frame are the same 50% as if you bred to a solid, but you get the 25% chance of a dead baby. Maybe only having a 25% chance of a solid baby is why (they'd rather have a dead baby than a solid one?).

[ttldr1]

Thanks Ambrey - I don't see the sense in breeding with a 25% chance of a dead foal, that by the way will probably have a very painful and heartbreaking 24 hours (or longer) of life before the right thing is done and the foal is either euthanised or dies on it's own. For some gambling with a life is worth it but not to me.

[Sarabeth]

WWID?

Fly over their farm with a crop duster full of regumate :D

[county]

I totally agree about breeding two OLWS horses except that 25% isn't almost always. Its 1/4 nothing more nothing less. Test and theres 0% chance same as testing for Herda there both very easy to avoid.

[silver2]

Originally Posted by MySparrow View Post
I am not up on all of the HERDA genetics, but I would think, given the nature of the problem, that it would be sensible to breed it OUT rather than keep the genetic mutation going by continuing to breed to known carriers. No?
No. Most breeds have such a tiny gene pool that to eliminate a whole swath of individuals from reproducing is only going to create worse problems down the road. imho, the idea of a "pure bred" is unsustainable in the long run for performance animals.

Besides, with the genetic testing available today there is no need to eliminate individuals from the gene pool for a single gene related condition.

[Ambrey]

No. Most breeds have such a tiny gene pool that to eliminate a whole swath of individuals from reproducing is only going to create worse problems down the road. imho, the idea of a "pure bred" is unsustainable in the long run for performance animals.

These horses are all related- eliminating the individuals with HERDA from the breeding population doesn't eliminate the bloodlines, because as we've said only 50% of offspring from a carrier will be carriers themselves. That means there are tons of horses from these bloodlines who are NOT HERDA carriers.

It's not like OLWS, which is actually the color gene (although it's not 100%, it can masquerade) or even HYPP, which people believe adds muscle. Eliminating HERDA wouldn't eliminate anything from the genepool.

[LuvMyNSH]

No. Most breeds have such a tiny gene pool that to eliminate a whole swath of individuals from reproducing is only going to create worse problems down the road. imho, the idea of a "pure bred" is unsustainable in the long run for performance animals.

Besides, with the genetic testing available today there is no need to eliminate individuals from the gene pool for a single gene related condition.

Does this really apply though? You're not talking about any lines being lost, or a itty bitty gene pool like with RMH and the eye issues, where carriers did have to be bred or the breed would be lost. For every HERDA horse there is another non-carrier with the same breeding. Poco Bueno bred QH aren't rare by any stretch of the imagination.

In a perfect world, where people aren't morons, I think being careful about breeding carrier to NC only would work. But in RL you have people like the lady half a block down from me, a BNT Paint halter gal who has had over 20 lethal white foals that I know of, and keeps breeding frame to frame because the ones that survive fetch good money.

People will be doing the same thing with HERDA carriers.

[bugsynskeeter]

Any reputable cow horse breeder has their horses tested (mares and stallions). Unlike with HYPP, there is no advantage in having a HERDA +/+ horse. If you are interested in breeding to a stallion and he isn't tested, either get the owner to have the horse tested or look elsewhere. Speak with your money.

If you breed a carrier to a non-carrier, you can get 50% carrier and 50% non-carrier. There is no chance of getting an affected horse unless you breed a carrier to a carrier.

[Ambrey]

In a perfect world, where people aren't morons, I think being careful about breeding carrier to NC only would work. But in RL you have people like the lady half a block down from me, a BNT Paint halter gal who has had over 20 lethal white foals that I know of, and keeps breeding frame to frame because the ones that survive fetch good money.

People will be doing the same thing with HERDA carriers.

:eek:

:mad:

[Dazednconfused]

People will be doing the same thing with HERDA carriers.

I'm not sure I agree. I don't think that Arabian breeders are any more ethical than QH breeders (in fact I think that would be a bit of a stretch - I had to stop myself from giggling just a little bit as I typed that :lol: ) , and any well known stallion you can find nowadays is SCID tested - it just took time. Not everyone tested their stallions at first or advertised their status. Now, most people test the stallions at least. Of course there are still people who don't but they are not in the majority. And I have not heard of a single foal dying recently (like within the past 5-6 years). It just takes time for people to not be afraid of the stigma attached to these diseases, understand the inheritance patterns, and hopefully make educated decisions. As I understand it, the test for HERDA hasn't been out all that long.

[Woodland]

It has recently come to my attention that a local stallion owner is continuing to breed a stallion that is a known carrier for HERDA. From my understanding this stallion has now produced at least to foals with the disease that had to be destroyed. The stallions HERDA status is not listed on the ads advertising his services so I am pretty sure that the mare owners are not aware. This stallion is a registered quarter horse. I am thinking of contacting the AQHA but I am not sure if they would do anything about it. This owner is not very well liked in the community and has burned many bridges in the horse community. This is not a person that I could approach about the situation. WWYD?

And this is your business how :confused:

[greysandbays]

It's not like OLWS, which is actually the color gene (although it's not 100%, it can masquerade) or even HYPP, which people believe adds muscle. Eliminating HERDA wouldn't eliminate anything from the genepool.

You don't know that eliminating HERDA wouldn't eliminate anything from the gene pool.

The human disease Sickle Cell Anemia is horrible in the homozygous form. But in the heterozygous form, asymtomatic carriers are more resistant to Malaria than non-carriers. There's no telling how various genes piggyback on each other, and there's no telling how a foolish crusade to eliminate some of them will eliminate other valuable traits in the process.

To insist on banning otherwise excellent individuals from being bred solely on account of a TESTABLE trait which will only be passed on half the time at most and requires nothing more than avoiding breeding two carriers to remove all risk of producing symptoms for no better reason than because "some people won't do as I wish and I know better than anybody what should be done" defines a whole new level of foolish. If you are going to use that kind of idiot logic, it would make more sense to advocate the total extermination of the equine species. That way, you could have an iron-clad guarantee that no horse would ever suffer via the ignorance of greed of humankind.

[catknsn]

And this is your business how :confused:

Anyone who loves horses should be concerned about genetic defects like HERDA and HYPP being passed on. It's all of our business.

However, HERDA is avoidable as others have noted...it is also the mare owner's responsibility to educate themselves. If anybody is reading this thread and don't know what either of those diseases are, you don't know enough to breed your stock breed mare.

[hunt_jumpfl]

... For every HERDA horse there is another non-carrier with the same breeding. Poco Bueno bred QH aren't rare by any stretch of the imagination.
...

If only breeding great horses were that easy.

This may work in theory, but imagine if High Brow Cat, Smart Little Lena, Zippo Pine Bar, Doc O'Lena, etc had never been allowed to breed. Yes some of these are not the stallions that you are speaking of because they are no longer alive, but we can take High Brow Cat and Smart Little Lena who still have a fairly direct impact on the industry as examples.

High Brow Cat has been a leading cutting sire for 5 years in a row with offspring earning over $27 million (averaging almost $40k). He is one of the greatest cutting sires in AQHA history and would be a huge loss to the industry - and yes, he is listed as a HERDA carrier on the HERDA lists I was able to find online (though I don't think that it is listed in his ad). High Brow Cat has a full brother named Smart Lil Highbrow who is advertised as HERDA N/N. Smart Lil Highbrow is a very nice stallion in his own right with just under $100k in earnings himself and number a decent money earners, but you will not find him on the top of the leading sires list. So would High Brow Cat be a loss to the industry? You bet! Just because High Brow Cat and Smart Lil Highbrow are full brothers does not mean that they offer the same thing to the industry.

Smart Little Lena is the only active sire in front of High Brow Cat on the all time cutting sires stats list. While most of his offspring were born before a test for HERDA, he is an example of what a loss a stallion could be to multiple industries. Smart Little Lena is the sire of many great performance and breeding horses in the cutting and reining industries including Smart Chic Olena. Smart Chic Olena showed as a cutting horse and has NCHA earnings (I think over $100k) - then he was brought back as a reining horse where he was also a good money earner. As a stallion he has had an impact primarily on the reining and reined cowhorse industries. He is an NRHA Hall of Fame stallion, on the list of million dollar sires (I think as a $4 million sire), and for NRCHA has produced at least one winner of the World's Greatest Horseman contest. As far as I can find he is suspected to be HERDA N/N though Babcock Ranch does not currently have his status listed. But, if HERDA stallions were not allowed to breed at all (Smart Little Lena in this example) how many great stallions like Smart Chic Olena would we miss out on producing?

While I agree that HERDA is a horrible disease, and I am in the camp that the AQHA needs to require testing and publish results, I do not believe that carriers should not be registered or not be allowed to breed. Carrier stallions may have a lot to offer the industry and as a recessive gene that is asymptomatic in carriers I believe the key from here is responsible breeding in the form of testing and not breeding carrier to carrier. Maybe that is the rule that the AQHA needs to approach - requiring testing and not allowing the breeding of carrier to carrier. Not that it will happen, but that seems like a reasonable policy to me.

[Woodland]

Anyone who loves horses should be concerned about genetic defects like HERDA and HYPP being passed on. It's all of our business.

However, HERDA is avoidable as others have noted...it is also the mare owner's responsibility to educate themselves. If anybody is reading this thread and don't know what either of those diseases are, you don't know enough to breed your stock breed mare.


Nope none of her business. Just like people breed horses with bad attitudes and crooked legs. You can look down your nose all you want, but really it is not her business or anyone elses. I think it's a pretty asinine post. If she doesn't like it don't breed to it. The breeder is not breaking any laws, and you all are gossiping. Gossip is never productive. Just shows you how people think every ones business is their business - even me.

[LessonLearned]

Obviously, breeders can't be trusted to police themselves. The number of quarter horses registered in this country every year is staggering -- drastically contributing to the horse "overpopulation" problem that so many people of a certain faction carry on about.

It is bad enough that they are overbreeding "perfect" horses, but to breed horses with these problems is the picture of irresponsibility.

The AQHA is a huge part of this problem -- playing on people's desires for anything "registered" even if those horses have no quality whatsoever (that registration paper is worth absolutely nothing when a horse is on a truck to Canada). There is no "quality control" in the AQHA. A responsible organization encourages responsible breeding. The AQHA can't be bothered to do that since the AQHA is primarily concerned with filling their pockets with registration fees. Is it any wonder that the AQHA is one of the main proponents of slaughter in this country?

[horsecrazykid]

here is some info copied and pasted w/permission. the author's info is in the signature:

Poco Pine was a son of Poco Bueno who is the source point stallion for the genetic condition called HERDA. Poco Pine was a carrier. This means that when bred to non-carrier mares (assuming no Poco Bueno blood in the mares) the resulting foal had a 50% chance of also being a carrier. Carriers show no symptoms. Carriers, when bred to other carriers, have a 25% chance of producing a foal that has no gene for this, a 50% chance of producing a foal that is also a carrier so which has no symptoms and a 25% chance of producing a foal that is an afflicted horse and will show symptoms....sometimes these symptoms don't show until the horse is put under saddle and in times prior to having this defined as a genetic condition it was sometimes misdiagnosed as dog injuries, barb wire cuts, cougar attacks, dietary problems with the skin etc. If there are 6 crosses to Poco Pine I would have the horse tested. Yes, there are cases showing up and will be as long
as carriers are bred to carriers.

The chances of a horse being a carrier are zero if the horses between this horse and Poco Bueno were not carriers. If there were carriers in the line then each horse immediately following a carrier has a 50/50 chance of also being one....so the % of a bloodline does not necessarily equal the risk....ie..if a horse is a great grandson of Poco Bueno for instance he would have 12.5% Poco Bueno blood...but if his immediate ancestor (sire or dam) was a carrier the chances he is also one is 50% rather than the 12.5% one might think. If a horse is an offspring of an afflicted horse it will be a carrier.

Many people have no idea if their horse goes back to Poco Bueno if it is not on the three generation pedigree. Others, including some vets, have no idea what this condition is and some think it affects cutting horse bloodlines through Doc O'Lena and Smart Little Lena only. This is not the case. Zippo Pine Bar was a carrier and at least one of his sons has been identified as being one also. This is a horse which is heavily used in halter and pleasure lines at least in the Paint world.

Dorothy
Colored Cowhorse Ranch
Lovelock, NV
www.coloredcowhorseranch.com
Docs Producer Leo, AQHA foundation bred perlino
Colonels Diamond Chex, APHA buckskin tobiano
Ima Streakin Doc, APHA bay tobi Doc Bar grandson
Muchacho Pintero, APHA sorrel tobi Doc Quixote grandson

[county]

So Lessonlearned " exactly " how do you propse the AQHA limit numbers? Last time they tryed the courts ruled against them and said its illegal.

[greysandbays]

Obviously, breeders can't be trusted to police themselves. The number of quarter horses registered in this country every year is staggering -- drastically contributing to the horse "overpopulation" problem that so many people of a certain faction carry on about.

It is bad enough that they are overbreeding "perfect" horses, but to breed horses with these problems is the picture of irresponsibility.

The AQHA is a huge part of this problem -- playing on people's desires for anything "registered" even if those horses have no quality whatsoever (that registration paper is worth absolutely nothing when a horse is on a truck to Canada). There is no "quality control" in the AQHA. A responsible organization encourages responsible breeding. The AQHA can't be bothered to do that since the AQHA is primarily concerned with filling their pockets with registration fees. Is it any wonder that the AQHA is one of the main proponents of slaughter in this country?


Bullshit.

AQHA and quarter horse breeders are no worse in the ethics and responsiblity department than any other segment of the horse industry or the human population in general.

There are a lot of Quarter Horses bred every year because Quarter Horses are POPULAR. They are what the large majority of the horsey public wants.

[county]

The AQHA is mostly pro slaughter because of what they predicted would happen if it was banned. Now its been banned here and you have a whole new set of problems that no one wanted to address before the fact. And yes there #1 in reg numbers beleive it or not if they weren't another asso. would be. One will also be #2, and #3 right on down the line.

[Ambrey]

So what would you propose AQHA do, since these bloodlines are so wonderful and popular, to avoid people breeding babies whose skin starts to fall off when they are 2?

Just say "this genepool is too important for us to lose!" and let it go?

These are horses with short, miserable lives.

[county]

How about people taking personal responsability? I would like to see the members of the AQHA pass a rule not giving a breeders cert. to a mare thats a carrier bred to a carrier.

[Ambrey]

How about people taking personal responsability? I would like to see the members of the AQHA pass a rule not giving a breeders cert. to a mare thats a carrier bred to a carrier.

HYPP and OLWS have proven what personal responsibility gets you. I agree, though, that sounds like a good compromise that would definitely discourage breeding carrier/carrier.

They'd also have to require testing of all horses with PB lines, though, and have the results available.

[LuvMyNSH]

The breeder is not breaking any laws, and you all are gossiping. Gossip is never productive. Just shows you how people think every ones business is their business - even me.

It was exactly this kind of gossip that saved me from breeding a mare to a HYPP N/H stallion. Very nice app, on the leading sires list for performance, had won a lot, and the breeder never mentioned once that the horse was N/H. I had the mare booked, money had changed hands, and not a goddamned word. If people hadn't gossiped I never would have found out about the N/H babies the stallion owner was blaming on the mares, except that all the mares producing N/H foals by him were N/N or had no Impressive at all.

So in some cases, gossip is very productive. I dug a little harder and found a N/N son that was unshown due to injury, paid less, and got a very, very nice N/N baby. A friend decided she didn't care and wanted the big name in the baby's pedigree for marketing . She got a N/H colt from her totally non-Impressive bred mare. The baby had an episode and died at age 3.

It's so much easier to keep the dirt swept under the rug when everyone just shuts up and looks the other way.

[katarine]

What should AQHA do?
Provide UTD educational articles via web,print mailings
Report on it via their TV programs/ask the vet segments
Discuss it at meetings- state/local/regional/national


That's IT.

It's the OWNER'S responsibility to read, study, THINK about what they are doing. No one sitting in the offices in Amarillo, is it? is leading anyone's mare to the breeding barn. It makes me so damn mad when people want to make it 'Big ____' Fault...big gov, big QH, whatever....you own it, you breed it, you deal with it. If you're too stupid to avoid creating more HERDA babies, well, frankly...that's YOUR problem.

[Woodland]

That's IT.

It's the OWNER'S responsibility to read, study, THINK about what they are doing. No one sitting in the offices in Amarillo, is it? is leading anyone's mare to the breeding barn. It makes me so damn mad when people want to make it 'Big ____' Fault...big gov, big QH, whatever....you own it, you breed it, you deal with it. If you're too stupid to avoid creating more HERDA babies, well, frankly...that's YOUR problem.

Exactly!

[Woodland]

It was exactly this kind of gossip that saved me from breeding a mare to a HYPP N/H stallion. Very nice app, on the leading sires list for performance, had won a lot, and the breeder never mentioned once that the horse was N/H. I had the mare booked, money had changed hands, and not a goddamned word. If people hadn't gossiped I never would have found out about the N/H babies the stallion owner was blaming on the mares, except that all the mares producing N/H foals by him were N/N or had no Impressive at all.

So in some cases, gossip is very productive. I dug a little harder and found a N/N son that was unshown due to injury, paid less, and got a very, very nice N/N baby. A friend decided she didn't care and wanted the big name in the baby's pedigree for marketing . She got a N/H colt from her totally non-Impressive bred mare. The baby had an episode and died at age 3.

It's so much easier to keep the dirt swept under the rug when everyone just shuts up and looks the other way.

Who did you breed your mare too? I have apps.

[MSP]

OP, I don't think there is any crusade here. Horses have always been a buyer beware situation, breeding is no different.

For anyone concerned with HERDA I would suggest joining the the HERDA group http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HERDA/

There are several databases where the HERDA status is listed of many horses. One could look up a potential stud or even just request a test result from the owner of a stud.

I personally don't think HERDA is all that prevalent but when a horse is affected it is very devastating. My mare is heavy Poco Bueno top and bottom so I have always kept up the with HERDA.

I don't think AQHA would ever have grounds to ban the registration of known carriers and it seems redundant to ban afflicted horse as they usually have to be euthanized. So what would be affective?

[Dazednconfused]

So what would you propose AQHA do, since these bloodlines are so wonderful and popular, to avoid people breeding babies whose skin starts to fall off when they are 2?

Just say "this genepool is too important for us to lose!" and let it go?

These are horses with short, miserable lives.

Again, it's called personal responsibility. Given time, testing will become a normal part of breeding. Everyone will test their stallions at least and offer the test results to those who ask.

If the Arab people can do it, anyone can. All this crap about not registering carriers, prohibiting breeding of carriers, etc etc, plus the rumors that abound about horses that may be carriers, attaches a huge stigma to the disease and that is why people won't test.

[philosoraptor]

I don't know what you actually can do. It's not like you can hang a sign out from "beware- HERDA stallion". I'm not sure if this falls into being something illegal either, as there aren't any laws preventing one from knowingly creating foals that die unpleasant deaths.

Don't send this person business and if anyone asks you, steer them far away from this breeder. If you have written proof of the stallion creating two HERDA foals, this information might be made available somewhere. Do you have pics of his skin lesions? Or if the foals' skin?

Whatever you do, tread lightly: you don't want to be sued for loss of revenue, slander, whatever

In the long run, the reputation will catch up with this person. Unfortunately in the meantime, they can spread this gene pretty far before they're found out.

It is a shame those who are buying the breeding services don't ask questions. I can't believe how many people don't know or care if a stallion might have a genetic disease. How many mare owners have had their own mares genetic-disease tested before using them for breeding? I hate to sound cynical but it seems like the majority of those breeding in the US just don't care... as long as they can sell the foals, that's all the proof they need to keep breeding this way. And some can't even sell the foals but they "love foals" so much they keep making more.

You gotta love the AQHA. :rolleyes: They *know* what HERDA and HYPP is and they could care less if every QH out there has one or the other. So they won't do a darn thing if you try to report a breeder. For what is supposedly the largest breed registry org in the country, they're one of the most irresponsible.

The AQHA should REFUSE to allow these clearly defective animals to stay in the gene pool. In other words, mandate the tests and revoke the papers of any who fail. You can say "buyer beware" all you want, but that doesn't stop the foal from suffering. The real question is why do they need to allow breeding HERDA or HYPP horses? It's not like we're having a shortage of quarterhorses in the us. It would hurt while these bad breeders found clean breeding stock, but in a generation HERDA and HYPP could be banished forever from reg QHs.

As much as I love the qh breed and history, the AQHA makes me sick. They exist to promote more QH breedings and charge for the registrations, and absolutely nothing else. What'll end up happening when you breed en masse without any standards is that the breed itself will be diluted and lose value. You'll have a surplus of registered horses you can't sell and some will be worth more dead [as meat] than alive. Oh, wait, thats already happening.

If this was one of the quality european breeds, he would've failed to get into their studbook and nobody in their right mind would touch him.

If this was a quality dog breed, nobody looking to breed their dog would be interested without seeing genetic and health testing results. Even people looking for (non-breeding) pets expect to see quality dog breeders doing health testing.

So why is the AQHA hellbent on watering down the breed so much that nobody wants it? :mad:

[MSP]

Mays, although I think the AQHA could act quicker than it does I don't think it is fair to say

They *know* what HERDA and HYPP is and they could care less if every QH out there has one or the other.

They do have rules regarding HYPP http://www.aqha.com/association/registration/pdf/registrationrules_08.pdf

(3) Effective with foals born on or after January 1, 2007,
all descendants of the stallion Impressive, AQHA registration number
0767246, shall be required to be parentage verified and HYPP
tested, subject to the conditions in (c)(2) above. Any foal testing
homozygous positive for HYPP (H/H) will not be eligible for registration
with AQHA.

and the papers are marked.

I can't find it right now but I remember reading some where on their site that they do plan on imposing some rules regarding HERDA.

I would love to see some actual numbers but I really think HERDA is NOT as prevalent as HYPP. I was half expecting them to pass a rule that would require testing but perhaps they are having a much harder time nailing down what lines to test.

My mare has at least two studs in her pedigree that are know carriers, Poco Bueno and Poco Stripe. So do they require me to test, mark my mares papers... what?

BTW, I have tested my mare with UC Davis and she is not a carrier. She has 10 different lines back to know carriers and she has very sensitive skin! I guess my point is it isn't all that clear cut and easy to draw a line in the sand.

[AlterX]

Thanks for all the replies! I guess that there really isn't much I can do but spread the word to those I think will breed to him. It is already all over the county so most local people know but those from out of state aren't so lucky.

One of this stallions offspring wasn't diagnosed with HERDA until it was almost 2 years old. The owner bred her stallion to one of HER mares who obviously is a carrier and produced this filly. Someone from out of state purchased her as a weanling and then later discovered that she had HERDA and she had to be destroyed. I was told that she bred the mare back to him knowing that both were carriers. I never heard if the latest foal has shown symptoms yet. :no: This owner is not a responsible breeder and that is why it worries me so much that she continues to breed a HERDA carrier:mad:

[Ambrey]

They do have rules regarding HYPP http://www.aqha.com/association/registration/pdf/registrationrules_08.pdf




I didn't realize they'd done that! Now if only they would revoke breeding privileges of the H/H horses that are out there (grrr) and APHA would do the same.

Offspring of carrier to carrier breedings should not be registrable. People like this lady shouldn't be rewarded for their callousness :(

[MSP]

Yeah but

how do you enforce that? Say a breeder does cross carrier/carrier but AQHA has no record of either horse being a carrier. Yearlying gets HERDA and is euthanized after it is registered. How is AQHA going to know?

The bloodlines are vast in the case of HERDA not narrowed down to one sire like HYPP. If it goes back beyond to King or further I can only imagine the number of horses involved. I know plenty of breeders that are not going to test all their stallions and mares unless they produce an affected foal. It is too costly to demand testing of every foal before registration and I would suspect you would have a lot of unregistered foals as a result.

The breeder described by alterx is completely wrong. And should not be breeding to untested mares but it is a crap shoot and they won't get affected foals every time so they take their chances.

alterx, do go to http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HERDA/, join and inquire about adding the stallion to the 2nd party know carrier list under databases. If you have enough proof it will be a warning to those that use the group. Many are breeders and are networked!

[AlterX]

I am curious what it costs to have a horse tested for HERDA? Anyone know?

[MSP]

$40 for test at UC Davis

[Ambrey]

Yeah but

how do you enforce that? Say a breeder does cross carrier/carrier but AQHA has no record of either horse being a carrier. Yearlying gets HERDA and is euthanized after it is registered. How is AQHA going to know?


Well, I think that all AQHA registered horses should be tested for HERDA and HYPP and have it noted. It would be simple enough for the computer to spit back a big "no" if two carriers are bred!

eta: I meant all AQHA horses from affected bloodlines :)

[MSP]

The most they could do is require testing of foals before registration when they are from untested parents. Testing of all ready registered horses would be voluntary.

[Woodland]

Someone from out of state purchased her as a weanling and then later discovered that she had HERDA and she had to be destroyed.


Yeah right - why would they do that:confused: That is another asinine statement made just to inflame - posts like that are DISGUSTING who's purpose is to inflame without proof :rolleyes: If that is true PM me the name of the owner/breeder/filly so it can be verified - otherwise you are blowing smoke to make a point :no: Which proves you are just a busy body with an agenda. SHAMEFUL!

[katarine]

Woodland, that poster's post does not prove anything like a shameful agenda.

Many horses (lacking testing) aren't known to have HERDA til they fall apart, literally, once they are started U/S and their skin breaks down. It's reasonable and possible that a filly live to be 2 w/o incident, get sold. If you weren't so what, close to this? or something like this? why so angry? you would acknowledge that's pretty much how 'we' found out about this deal...remember Impressive Syndrome, before 'we' knew it was actually HYPP? "We" knew it had something to do with him...but what exactly, no, not for a while. Wasn't HERDA sorted out at the vet school in MS? I swear I recall reading that's how it was nailed down..donated horses at the vet school. read it it Performance Horse, I think...

[AlterX]

From the UC Davis website:

Hereditary equine regional dermal asthenia (HERDA) is a genetic skin disease predominantly found in the American Quarter Horse. Within the breed, the disease is prevalent in particular lines of cutting horses. HERDA is characterized by hyperextensible skin, scarring, and severe lesions along the back of affected horses. Affected foals rarely show symptoms at birth. The condition typically occurs by the age of two, most notably when the horse is first being broke to saddle. There is no cure, and the majority of diagnosed horses are euthanized because they are unable to be ridden and are inappropriate for future breeding. HERDA has an autosomal recessive mode of inheritance and affects stallions and mares in equal proportions. Research carried out in Dr. Danika Bannasch's laboratory at the University of California, Davis, has identified the gene and mutation associated with HERDA.

[AlterX]

Yeah right - why would they do that:confused: That is another asinine statement made just to inflame - posts like that are DISGUSTING who's purpose is to inflame without proof :rolleyes: If that is true PM me the name of the owner/breeder/filly so it can be verified - otherwise you are blowing smoke to make a point :no: Which proves you are just a busy body with an agenda. SHAMEFUL!

Woodland.........apparently you are having a bad day and I am sorry for that but don't take it out on others who have done nothing to you;)

[MSP]

Dr. Ann Rashmir did research in MS and I believe UC Davis came out with the test.

Some might not remember all the controversy surrounding this but I can't forget because the Les Sellnow article naming Poco Bueno as the main carrier came out around the time I bought my filly. I remember the feeling of rolling the dice! No test at the time so all you could do is wait and wonder.

And then this statement by the NFQHA caused some doubt and I am sure many breeders still felt this way.

http://www.quarter-horse-fun.de/quarter-horse-forum/herda_fqha_2.html

I don't think this article is even on the NFQHA site any more.

The Sellnow article essentially condemned tens of thousands of horses and owners with blatant disregard to the many lives that would be affected, and the damage to the reputation of one of the greatest sires in the Quarter Horse world. Many people make their living with these horses, others have invested their life savings in them toward retirement, and still more have dedicated their lives to preserving these precious bloodlines. To condemn all of their horses without scientific proof is unconscionable. Mr. Sellnow's reply to that charge is he wants to protect "that little guy out there who saved and saved and saved until he could afford a $10,000 or more breeding fee and wound up with an HC horse that had to be put down". That is just fine - but the researchers refuse to reveal the horses with a $10,000 breed fee known to have produced a HERDA foal - and certainly Sellnow can not be worried about people breeding to Poco Bueno or King!



Poco Bueno, King, and Traveler have been dead for decades - they are not producing these foals. NFQHA believes that to name them and threaten an entire industry without revealing the actual sires and dams producing HERDA foals, and without a scientific test, is unforgivable. The article leaves the reader with the supposition that all Poco Bueno and King bred horses are potentially dangerous with no way of proving if they are or are not. This can not be justified, even for the purpose of raising money for worthwhile research.



The Sellnow article released just enough information to potentially scare thousands of people into sending a $25.00 probability fee, but not enough to provide any real benefit to Quarter Horse breeders. Normally researchers and Universities refuse to release any information until they have absolute proof, and until they have a test so that innocent horses and breeders will not be adversely affected.



We would like to urge all horse owners not to be taken in by the over-dramatization of HERDA. The incidence of this disease is so low as to be negligible. There is absolutely no reason to fear the outstanding and wonderful Poco Bueno and King bred horses. These horses have a well-deserved reputation for being some of the best bloodlines in the industry for over sixty years, and we must not let this article taint that reputation. NFQHA encourages everyone to do their own research, call the breeders you know and talk with them. Form your own conclusions and opinions. Ask questions before buying a horse or breeding to a horse - reputable breeders will be honest if they have produced a HERDA foal.

The Sellnow article posted in this thread already http://www.bringinglighttohypp.org/HERDA.html

I have to mention that my breeder had never had a case of HERDA and did call Dr. Ann Rashmir who looked up the odds of my filly having HERDA with out cost.

[Ambrey]

So NFQHA basically came out in disagreement with the facts that were later proven true?

I particularly like this line:

If this condition is the result of two recessive genes, and Poco Bueno was a carrier, simple logic would indicate that tens of thousands of Quarter Horses would carry this gene, and the occurrence of this condition would be as common as parrot mouth, cryptorchidism, or any other condition resulting from recesssive genes.

Let's see if we can make that true by breeding the heck out of all of the HERDA horses!

[county]

MayS once again your posts proves you have no clue on the subject I see this with you time and again. Do you make posts just to try and pick a fight or do you actually beleive them?

I know people who have produced a few HERDA foals why should someone try and stop mare owners from breeding to their stud? At the time they were prodfuced they like everyone else had no idea what HERDA was or that it even existed. What exactly in the OP would make one think this stallion owner did? When were those two foals born?

[LuvMyNSH]

Who did you breed your mare too? I have apps.

Hard Copy, now deceased. This was quite a few years ago.

[Bluey]

Today you will see most of the ads for cutting horses indicate HERDA-n, it is a selling point.
The industry is listening, it just takes time, just like it did with HyPP, that today most ads also state HyPP testing.

The people that don't know today about those issues are those that are so new to breeding that they don't really should be breeding anyway.

[Woodland]

No AlterX I am actually having a great day! It funny, you getting all up in business that is not yours - it's just highly amusing too me. I seriously doubt your filly story - you told it to try and add credibility and fell short.

Sorry calls'em as I sees'em:lol:

[Ambrey]

No AlterX I am actually having a great day! It funny, you getting all up in business that is not yours - it's just highly amusing too me. I seriously doubt your filly story - you told it to try and add credibility and fell short.

And the fact that nobody other than you has any problem believing it?


http://www.halterhorseads.com/classifieds.php?a=22&b=288

and you doubt that someone with a HERDA + stud is selling off babies without telling them?

[LuvMyNSH]

And the fact that nobody other than you has any problem believing it?


http://www.halterhorseads.com/classifieds.php?a=22&b=288



Well yes, but he's got great lines, and he's a winner! Okay, so there's that pesky disease he's going to pass on to every single baby...but he's a winner! Just imagine what the industry would be like without great winning horses like him being bred to pass on their superior genes. ;) :lol:

[county]

How many foals has he sired since H/H ones can no longer be reg.?

[Bluey]

Well yes, but he's got great lines, and he's a winner! Okay, so there's that pesky disease he's going to pass on to every single baby...but he's a winner! Just imagine what the industry would be like without great winning horses like him being bred to pass on their superior genes. ;) :lol:

Don't forget that today they won't accept for registration H/H horses any more and that by, some say 2010, others 2012, not any H/N either.

I doubt that anyone with a H/H stallion is getting many mares.:no:

[Ambrey]

How many foals has he sired since H/H ones can no longer be reg.?

Plenty, I'm sure, to the N/N mares whose owners feared they'd NEVAH get that perfect halter horse!

Remember, HYPP isn't like HERDA- any horse he sires has the possibility of symptoms.

[Ambrey]

Don't forget that today they won't accept for registration H/H horses any more and that by, some say 2010, others 2012, not any H/N either.

I doubt that anyone with a H/H stallion is getting many mares.:no:

Why not? If the foals are registerable now, better get in while the gettin's hot! Plus, he can sire paint babies, and they LOFF HYPP!

eta: How many mares he's getting is kind of moot. The very fact that there are people out there that thought to keep an H/H horse intact and market it as a breeding animal is why nobody trusts that all of the membership of AQHA/APHA will do the right thing here. Some of you will, but unless there's some sort of consequence others will continue with whatever they are doing without regard for the suffering of the animals.

[county]

So how many is plenty? How many paints has he sired? If your so all fired up your sure its easy enough to prove.

[county]

What " exactly " would be the incentive for mare owners to breed for a H/H foal they can't regester? Just how many do you really think are going to go for them?

[Ambrey]

N/N mares would be bred for a registerable N/H foal. People think they are better halter horses.

[Ambrey]

http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-108869

they are bragging that Mr. H/H is the sire.

http://www.csacres.com/mares.html

scroll down for an N/H daughter

http://www.sirepower.com/CallMeTardeeTe.htm
another N/H daughter

http://www.freewebs.com/kirtzingerquarterhorses/mares.htm

Of course she's in foal. Of course she's N/H, she's a tardee clu daughter!

[county]

I think you misunderstood the question. What would the incentive be to breed for a H/H foal? And how many mares has he bred since the AQHA stopped reg./ H/H foals? How many paints? You said " plenty " I'm curious how many that is. Or if you actually know.

[Bluey]

http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-108869

they are bragging that Mr. H/H is the sire.

http://www.csacres.com/mares.html

scroll down for an N/H daughter

http://www.sirepower.com/CallMeTardeeTe.htm
another N/H daughter

http://www.freewebs.com/kirtzingerquarterhorses/mares.htm

Of course she's in foal. Of course she's N/H, she's a tardee clu daughter!

And people smoke and drink and eat too much and don't exercise, etc.

Everyone I know that breeds would never bred to any HyPP horse other than N/N and in fact, most people today don't want ANY Impressive in their horses at all, as most general horse sales can show you.
The same with HERDA+ and others.

Yes, there are some people out there we wonder how low their IQ is, the way they breed horses, but you can find that with everything else, be it hernias, parrot mouth, club feet, poor minded horses...

A good breeder is a good breeder that really studies what they are after, what lines will provide them with that and get those kinds of horses and cull ruthlessly, only bred the best and reevaluate that best every season.

We really should not go hunting those few examples of idiot breeders of registered horses and then say "you see, they are out there" and make it sound like that is what all breeders do, because it is not so.

[county]

BTW I didn't see where anyone was bragging about who their horse was by. They just stated a fact same as any other ad I've seen stating who a horse is sired by. ' Exactly " how do you think they should have said it so their not " bragging "?

[Ambrey]

I think you misunderstood the question. What would the incentive be to breed for a H/H foal? And how many mares has he bred since the AQHA stopped reg./ H/H foals? How many paints? You said " plenty " I'm curious how many that is. Or if you actually know.

Nobody would be breeding for H/H foals. But an H/H stud would be the only way for people with N/N mares to beassured of N/H foals.

Plus, look at his win record? Who cares if they drop dead, as long as they WIN?

Remember that with HYPP, N/H is symptomatic. It's not a carrier issue like HERDA.

[Ambrey]

BTW I didn't see where anyone was bragging about who their horse was by. They just stated a fact same as any other ad I've seen stating who a horse is sired by. ' Exactly " how do you think they should have said it so their not " bragging "?

"Own daughter of..." in the title of an ad is usually reserved for something you're proud of. Do a search, his babies are winning up a storm.

[Ambrey]

We really should not go hunting those few examples of idiot breeders of registered horses and then say "you see, they are out there" and make it sound like that is what all breeders do, because it is not so.

Look again. Look at the stallion's win record, and the win records of his get. These are not backyard breeders, these are people who are breeding for winning halter horses, which many believe is easier with N/H (or even H/H if you can keep them alive).

The idea that these are rogue breeders is ridiculous. They may be different from you, or County, or anyone who breeds using horses in which dropping dead is really a bad thing, but it is a major part of the QH breeding industry and unless the rest of the QH breeding industry recognizes and weeds them out, they will always reflect badly on the breed.

[county]

" Own " daughter or son is very very common in QH ads has been for many many years.

So you still haven't said how many foals hes sired since the rule change. Well other then " plenty ". "Exactly " how many is " plenty "?

[trubandloki]

This is what confuses me.....

Why is everyone blaming the stallion owner.

I feel it is the mare owners responsibility to find a stallion that matches their mare. They need to ask the right questions, genetic diseases being one of those questions. It is silly/irresponsible for any mare owner to book with any stallion and not ask about genetic issues that affect the breed they are breeding for/to.

I would have a problem with any stallion owner who did not answer honestly when asked, but above and beyond that I think it is the mare owner's job to make sure the stallion they pick is right for their mare.

And no, I do not think it is OK to breed horses with serious genetic issues.

[county]

I couldn't agree more with trubandloki.

[Ambrey]

So you still haven't said how many foals hes sired since the rule change. Well other then " plenty ". "Exactly " how many is " plenty "?

Actually, I didn't say that. I sarcastically said that he'd have plenty of mares now that he's a N/N mare owners only chance to get an N/H foal.

I don't plan to count his get, as I don't quite see the point.

[grandprixjump]

It's the general consensus of the buying public. and NOT JUST AQHA..

Look what was done years ago with the size 000 feet on 1400# horses, look what the breeders have done to the Apps in the last 20 years (you go to any App show and 3/4's of the horses there have NO spots. They want a particular body type so they line breed to get the desired results and don't worry about problems that are created.
In the warmbloods right now Friesens are headed in that direction, because some the stallion owners in the US are breeding their stallions to any mare with 4 legs and ovaries, creating undesirable body types and untalented horses, with feathers. and CALLING them Friesens.
IMHO we as horse breeding and buying public need to more closely follow the German ideal of breeding to prevent problems like this. All horses go thru breed approvals and any problem horses weeded out to prevent them from passing on these problems.

[MSP]

Look again. Look at the stallion's win record, and the win records of his get. These are not backyard breeders, these are people who are breeding for winning halter horses, which many believe is easier with N/H (or even H/H if you can keep them alive).

The idea that these are rogue breeders is ridiculous. They may be different from you, or County, or anyone who breeds using horses in which dropping dead is really a bad thing, but it is a major part of the QH breeding industry and unless the rest of the QH breeding industry recognizes and weeds them out, they will always reflect badly on the breed.

:lol: Yes dropping dead is a problem for performance horses! I would think dropping dead is a problem for halter horses as well! :lol:

The halter industry is a discussion of it's own!

But I really don't think HERDA is the same issue. Lots of BN performance horses are know clean from HERDA. Don't think just because there are a couple of bad breeders that it is rampant.

[Dad Said Not To]

"Own daughter of..." in the title of an ad is usually reserved for something you're proud of. Do a search, his babies are winning up a storm.

No, "own daughter of..." or "own son of..." is a way of saying that the horse is a product of the stallion owner's breeding program, rather than being out of an outside mare. For example, an own daughter of Boonlight Dancer would be one out of a mare owned by the Polo Ranch, but if I bred a mare to Boonlight Dancer, the resulting foal would simply be called a daughter or son of Boonlight Dancer, without the "own" in front.

[county]

What would be the point of looking up his production record? Uh well to see if you know what your talking about. I looked up his sire record on the AQHA site. Since the rule was changed in 1-07 so far hes bred 1 mare there still could be some before Nov. this year. As far as APHA mares hes bred 1 in his entire life.

Not exactly what I'd call " plenty ".

[Ambrey]

No, "own daughter of..." or "own son of..." is a way of saying that the horse is a product of the stallion owner's breeding program, rather than being out of an outside mare. For example, an own daughter of Boonlight Dancer would be one out of a mare owned by the Polo Ranch, but if I bred a mare to Boonlight Dancer, the resulting foal would simply be called a daughter or son of Boonlight Dancer, without the "own" in front.

What I meant was that it wouldn't be in the headline of the ad unless it was a "good thing" (you don't usually see "own daughter of gus down the street."

Regardless, my search indicated that this is a popular stud, who won a lot himself and has a lot of winning offspring.

[county]

So in your search how come you didn't mention since the AQHA stopped reg. H/H foals hes only sired 1 foal. Or that hes only sired 1 APHA foal in his life?

I thought you said a search would be pointless?

[ridenslide]

Great look up County!:D
The HYPP rule has changed H/H breedings, obviously.Looking up the record did show a difference since the rule change.

There was a Warmblood that the owners quit breeding because he was so evil! I do mean evil!!Bot daggone was he talented.He passed both on to his get.:mad::eek: This was an Olympic showjumper.He was later sold abroad & has since died.:no: so sad.

There is another QH who is awesomely bred for reining, but is no longer breeding for similar reasons. Some of his get are whacko.:eek:Some are great, more are not.

You can't test for that, but you can do your research as a mare owner.

Then there is the incredible Gunner-you have the chance of having a deaf foal. Hold on. Is the great one not deaf? Comes with the white mask gene.
Yes,It makes for training challenges.They can't hear ya say WHOA! :winkgrin: and,they are so in tune to EVERY body movement that you have to be careful , but they are incredible athletes & great horses.
Would I take one? You betcha!

You already know my stand on HERDA.Our 3yo is already tested. She has 5 carriers in her background.I am happy to say that she is negative.For kicks we had my gelding tested.We just didn't have the results back when this thread started.He of the HERDA + dad is HERDA NEGATIVE. So, yep,I am safe to breed our filly to his dad.
If I win powerball, I will,too.:eek::winkgrin: (HDContinental Cash/Strait Silver) filly to...$million reining sire= happy me.:D I couldn't buy it ! She was a steal!


GrandPrixjumper- Love your sigline.{ We were glad that Eric Lamaze passed HIS drug test this time;)}

[Ambrey]

What would be the point of looking up his production record? Uh well to see if you know what your talking about. I looked up his sire record on the AQHA site. Since the rule was changed in 1-07 so far hes bred 1 mare there still could be some before Nov. this year. As far as APHA mares hes bred 1 in his entire life.

Not exactly what I'd call " plenty ".

Um, doesn't that support my assertion that it is rules, not personal responsibility, that are going to change the way things are done? I figured you had some other point. I certainly didn't think you'd get worked up over an offhand remark that had no pertinence to the question at hand.

I think that's awesome, because it means the halter people really do see AQHA banning even N/H horses. Who woulda thunk?

Today, HYPP. Tomorrow, HERDA. Enforced responsible breeding is the wave of the future ;)

[Ambrey]

I thought you said a search would be pointless?

I didn't say it was pointless, I said I didn't see the point. Now, I do... it was to disprove an offhand, sarcastic remark I made as a dig on halter breeders.

It certainly didn't support your argument for personal responsibility rather than rules... that is your argument, right? Because if it isn't, I don't know what your argument is.

[county]

Who would a thunk? Pretty much anyone with any common sense I would think.

[Ambrey]

Who would a thunk? Pretty much anyone with any common sense I would think.

Well there ya go :) Clearly the people who were breeding HYPP+ horses like crazy 3 years ago had no common sense, and neither does the breeder described in the OP.

[county]

Why not? How do you know he even knew what HERDA was when the 2 foals were born? Just because you don't look at something a certain way hardly means any more then how someone else does.

[Ambrey]

Why not? How do you know he even knew what HERDA was when the 2 foals were born? Just because you don't look at something a certain way hardly means any more then how someone else does.

Because I believe the OP. The HYPP situation gave me very little faith that breeders will care about what they produce, so it doesn't take much to turn me against them.

If he actually notifies every mare owner of the HERDA status, doesn't take mares who have not been tested HERDA-, and asks that all offspring are HERDA tested rather than being an asshat and not caring, then I take it back :winkgrin:

[county]

I have no idea if he does what you think he should or not? Nor do I know of any way to find out?

[Ambrey]

I have no idea if he does what you think he should or not? Nor do I know of any way to find out?

Nope, and I don't even know his name or where he is, so I'm not going to hunt him down and torture him either. Just figure if he isn't deserving of the scorn I'm mentally sending him, some other breeder out there probably is.

[chaltagor]

What I meant was that it wouldn't be in the headline of the ad unless it was a "good thing" (you don't usually see "own daughter of gus down the street."

That's because it wouldn't be true. You have no idea what it means, and obviously didn't read what Dad wrote. "Own daugher of" means they OWN the sire. You can't have an "own daughter of gus down the street" if YOU DON'T OWN HIM why is this so hard for people to understand? :confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Ambrey]

That's because it wouldn't be true. You have no idea what it means, and obviously didn't read what Dad wrote. "Own daugher of" means they OWN the sire. You can't have an "own daughter of gus down the street" if YOU DON'T OWN HIM why is this so hard for people to understand? :confused::confused::confused::confused:

Um, no, Dad said "own daughter of" means "bred by the owner of the sire." If gus down the street's owner bred a horse and then sold it to you, it would be the "own daughter of gus down the street."

But thanks for inaccurately trying to point out my inaccuracy.

[county]

Ambrey I think you need to go back and read it again.

An " own " get means the horse was bred and born where the sire stands. If its from an outside mare its then a " direct " get.

[chaltagor]

Um, no, Dad said "own daughter of" means "bred by the owner of the sire." If gus down the street's owner bred a horse and then sold it to you, it would be the "own daughter of gus down the street."

But thanks for inaccurately trying to point out my inaccuracy.

NO, it would not. Because it was not owned by the stallion owner any more. No one but the stallion owner would be able to say that. It would just be "the daugher of gus down the street." You reveal yourself with every post.

[Ambrey]

NO, it would not. Because it was not owned by the stallion owner any more. No one but the stallion owner would be able to say that. It would just be "the daugher of gus down the street." You reveal yourself with every post.

People other than stallion owners say that all the time. If I was unclear on the concept, then a zillion others are as well. Including the person who explained it here as:

No, "own daughter of..." or "own son of..." is a way of saying that the horse is a product of the stallion owner's breeding program, rather than being out of an outside mare.

Most people use it to mean that the horse in question is actually sired by that stud rather than just being of that stud's breeding ("own daughter of Poco Bueno" vs. "Poco Bueno mare"), and that's how I've always interpreted it. I'll believe Dad that it's actually meant to imply something else, but your definition is way off from general usage.

[JoZ]

Most people use it to mean that the horse in question is actually sired by that stud rather than just being of that stud's breeding ("own daughter of Poco Bueno" vs. "Poco Bueno mare"), and that's how I've always interpreted it.

That's not my experience. Most people I know KNOW what it means. It means that the mare was part of the stallion owner's broodmare band. Nothing more, nothing less. I ship semen in from Studly, or take Marey to visit Studly, my foal is not an own son or daughter. Studly's owners breed him to one of their mares, the foal is an own son or daughter. Now if that own son or daughter is sold, I think the new owner can still refer to it as an own son or daughter of Studly. But the other stuff? Not a question about it, and I don't hear it used incorrectly.

[Ambrey]

That's not my experience. Most people I know KNOW what it means. It means that the mare was part of the stallion owner's broodmare band. Nothing more, nothing less. I ship semen in from Studly, or take Marey to visit Studly, my foal is not an own son or daughter. Studly's owners breed him to one of their mares, the foal is an own son or daughter. Now if that own son or daughter is sold, I think the new owner can still refer to it as an own son or daughter of Studly. But the other stuff? Not a question about it, and I don't hear it used incorrectly.

Hmmm, a lot of people don't seem to know what it means.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080827084910AA4Xi9I

One of you should answer!

[chaltagor]

A lot of people don't know how to spell voila, but that doesn't make them right either.

[Ambrey]

Nope, but neither does being able to correct them make you a good speller.

[chaltagor]

Nope, but neither does being able to correct them make you a good speller.

What does that have to do with anything? :lol:

Being able to do an internet search and find a million pages doesn't mean you're correct. I don't know whether to laugh or cry that that's your only means of fact checking. Lordy loo. You get about a million pages for "chemtrails". OMG, it must be true!

[Bluey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambrey
Most people use it to mean that the horse in question is actually sired by that stud rather than just being of that stud's breeding ("own daughter of Poco Bueno" vs. "Poco Bueno mare"), and that's how I've always interpreted it.

That's not my experience. Most people I know KNOW what it means. It means that the mare was part of the stallion owner's broodmare band. Nothing more, nothing less. I ship semen in from Studly, or take Marey to visit Studly, my foal is not an own son or daughter. Studly's owners breed him to one of their mares, the foal is an own son or daughter. Now if that own son or daughter is sold, I think the new owner can still refer to it as an own son or daughter of Studly. But the other stuff? Not a question about it, and I don't hear it used incorrectly.
__________________

Someone is being confusing here.:confused:

Been breeding for many years and have been around breeders for all my life and in MY experience, everyone I have ever heard say a horse is an own daughter/son of XYZ stallion means to emphasize that she/he is not only of that breeding, but really his direct daughter/son.

We have an own son of Docs Quixote.
He was definitely not bred by us, but a neighboring ranch.
All that mention his breeding say he is "an own son" of the old great Docs Quixote.

I have never heard someone mean that it was bred by any one owner or breeder.:confused:

[Ambrey]

Being able to do an internet search and find a million pages doesn't mean you're correct. I don't know whether to laugh or cry that that's your only means of fact checking. Lordy loo. You get about a million pages for "chemtrails". OMG, it must be true!

Um, yeah... except that you were the one who thought "own daughter" meant "owned daughter," so I think crying would be the best option.

[Ambrey]

Been breeding for many years and have been around breeders for all my life and in MY experience, everyone I have ever heard say a horse is an own daughter/son of XYZ stallion means to emphasize that she/he is not only of that breeding, but really his direct daughter/son.

I have never heard someone mean that it was bred by any one owner or breeder.:confused:

Glad someone else has had the same experience I have had :)

[chaltagor]

Um, yeah... except that you were the one who thought "own daughter" meant "owned daughter," so I think crying would be the best option.

Hmmm, I don't think you want to go there Ambrey. At least I know you don't have to put bandages on a horse every time he's put in a stall and why cowboys wear chaps. Crying indeed.

[Ambrey]

Hmmm, I don't think you want to go there Ambrey. At least I know you don't have to put bandages on a horse every time he's put in a stall and why cowboys wear chaps. Crying indeed.


Except I am not running around telling people how wrong they are about either bandages OR chaps and then trying to get snarky afterward as though I was actually right.

p.s.: I'd like you to come tell some of the high priced horse owners here that they don't need standing wraps on their horses overnight, and I'm guessin' I have known more actual cowboys in my life than you can imagine. Going there, indeed... I'm not even sure where "there" is, but it must be a frightening place.