Backing out from under you/refusing

[SharonA]

Sooooo, Madame (Arab mare) has been most opinionated this week. We have had several instances of a fun little trick where, if she doesn't want to go somewhere, she will tuck her head and back up. It's not quite a buck, but you get the picture. She is not really afraid; she just doesn't want to go (ie, leaving the pasture area as we head out on the trails -- she doesn't want to leave the other horses). While she's tucking and backing, I can turn her and she'll try to turn back and head for home. If I try to do a full circle so she's facing the trail, there is more dancing around and tucking that head down. Once we have our discussion (today I smacked her on the shoulder with the reins), all is well and we both have a great time. Saddle fits, feet are good, etc. -- she just doesn't want to leave her day job of eating in the pasture. How should I handle this? I haven't been carrying a crop because she's generally so forward and she doesn't have much confidence so I don't want to add pain to the mix, but perhaps a light but clear tap behind the girth would be helpful. -- I do win in the end, by being insistent, but the backing thing was worse today than it was a couple days ago, so I don't want it to escalate.

Poor Fanny. After months of having it very easy, she and I have progressed to where we're both working harder. Madame is not amused at the transition (though she does seem to enjoy it thoroughly once she gets over the fact that effort is being demanded). Again, saddle fits, legs and feet are good, etc.

[pines4equines]

Here's what I'd do. (And my horse has been pitching some little temper tantrums lately as well - which is what your horse is doing.)

She probably pitches this wee temper tantrum in a particular spot, as you approach the spot before she even tries to pitch her tantrum...turn her left, turn her right, turn her left, turn her right and keep your leg on and MEAN it. Don't turn her completely around, just keep going in the direction you're going but just keep her listening to you. If she hesitates, then add your seat and push. You know as your seat goes back and forward in the saddle, push a wee bit harder as your seat goes forward.

If you want, carry the crop to reinforce and then just drop it on the ground once you get through the hairy spot. You get off and can pick it up when you get back.

But as soon as she even remotely starts to pitch this fit, even if she starts to lower her head, turn left, turn right, seat and legs and MEAN it.

I realized my horse was pitching a temper tantrum. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, "Oh, he's insecure being in the back so he would jig." Not so, he would jig and pitch this temper tantrum until we all put him back up front to lead. Well, I got after him with seat and legs and MEANT it and it really only took the one ride - fingers crossed. He was (as I call it) the uber bastard last Saturday, the day I really got after him, but he was a dream today so again fingers crossed...

[SharonA]

Oh, Pines, you are so right. It so absolutely is a fine little temper tantrum. I especially know you're right because today when I asked her to leg yield where I knew she was going to have a hissy fit over wanting to go home, she was doing them beautifully until she realized what was going on and that she had just passed her "dive out" location. Oooooh, I heard about it then. I just have to figure out how to nix the tantrum instead of escalating it.... she can just vaporize out from under you. I'll try your approach.

Silly horse. She loves to get out and work and go new places. I blame this all on her current pasture-mate, who is a snotty alpha-mare pony. I have made it clear that I have lead mare status over the pony, but Fanny is still taking lessons from the pony when they're alone, I feel sure of it.

:-)

[pines4equines]

Here's my situation. I'm an old dressage rider and I was having a terrible time with my saddle. Finally I gave up and went bareback. My horse would pitch his fit and because I was bareback and unsecure, I gave in to him and let him lead. Each time I would do this to avoid the hissy fit. And everyone out with me conjoled him as well.

Well, I broke my ankle in April. To start back riding, I just knew I'd not have the muscles nor the confidence to go bareback so I decided to go western. I bought an Abetta saddle that makes me stick like an SOB. He tries to pitch a fit and I don't give in. I rock and roll with it and leg him forward and MEAN it.

I really did a disservice to myself riding bareback and not dealing with the tantrum. But we're back on track and I do have to say, they generally give up and let you win if you grow a bit of back bone. (Most horses that is.)

Good luck, keep in touch about your horse's temper tantrum and I'll let you know how mine is progressing...the little bass-tids!

[carp]

Make going out on the trail less work and more fun than staying home.

Oh madame, by your behavior I see you think we need to practice backing and softening instead of going on a trail ride? Well, if you insist, I suppose we can spend the afternoon backing up and down the lane & flexing nose to girth. It seems a pity to spend a lovely day doing calisthenics, but I understand you think a girl needs to make sacrifices to keep in shape sometimes....

I'm sure after a few well orchestrated sessions of Pilates for Ponies she'll be much less resistant to going out for a walk in the woods.

[jazzrider]

I used to lease a TB mare that I rode out alone all the time. One winter I hooked up with someone with a similar schedule and we rode together regularly. Come Spring, however, her schedule changed and I was back to riding alone. That mare did just about the same thing you describe your mare doing. I found that turning her in a complete 360 degree circle (keeping her nose facing down the trail) when she tried to back up to keep her from covering ground and boring her to death (you don't want to go forward, we'll just sit here) worked best for her. If we fought too much her brain would fry and there wasn't enough room where she regularly chose to throw her fit to make her work. Once she figured out it was forward or stand there forever (it took about 4 rides), she stopped fighting. TBs, like Arabs, really like to go. :D

[sublimequine]

I totally like the idea of working her through all the spots where she normally throws a hissy fit. If you're working her hard enough and got her mind going enough, she'll basically forget to throw a tantrum. I've used this before. :)

Otherwise, say she tries it in a new spot, I think I'd go back to the arena for a bit and learn something new: the GO FORWARD RIGHT NOW OR SO HELP ME cue. :lol: First, start at halt. Give clear cue, verbal or leg or whatever, just keep it consistent. The second she moves off FORWARD, praise praise praise. Then, halt to trot. Get her movin off QUICKLY, try not to let her sneak a walk step in there. The whole point is to get them moving off the SECOND you ask, not a moment later. When they do that, praise again.

If you can though, don't really drill it into them, keep it light and not too horribly repetitive. Once they have it down, you rarely have to use it. For my mare, reins (or even hand, if I'm in a bind) on the butt means you WILL move forward RIGHT THIS INSTANT. It has come in handy in a few emergencies or sticky situations, like when she halted in the middle of a road with cars on it, and then decided she was not going to move. Gave her a thump with my heels, no response, so immediately went to reins on the butt. Crisis averted. :lol:

Another idea is once she starts backing up.. go with it. When you feel her start to run out of steam and attempt to stop, insist she continues backing up. And backing up. And backing up. Keep her backing up until she's thinking "SHEESH WHEN CAN I STOP BACKING?!?", and THEN ask for a halt. Then backing up somehow loses its fun. ;)

[Icecapade]

I had a horse that sometimes used to do that...

I just smile and say... you wanna back?

ok. back up the hill... all the way? ok... back up the road... all the way...

and man did that get old quick. I rarely have a problem with forward 'tantrums' s

every now and again he gets irritated and throws a fit and if I'm on the ground working him he automatically backs, which clearly can be an issue... but he has never done it on the trail. but man they get over that really quick when they realize they have to WORK.

work be da key!

[BigHorseLittleHorse]

I had a horse that sometimes used to do that...

I just smile and say... you wanna back?

ok. back up the hill... all the way? ok... back up the road... all the way...

and man did that get old quick.

Exactly! She wants to back up? Then turn her around so she's facing the barn, and make her go backwards in the direction you want her to go. It gets old really quickly...

[BarbeyGirl]

Exactly! She wants to back up? Then turn her around so she's facing the barn, and make her go backwards in the direction you want her to go. It gets old really quickly...

I agree with this and have used it successfully. The danger is that some horses will get frustrated and rear, so be careful. If you feel your mare "get light" in front, immediately turn her in tight circles (draw the rein back and anchor your hand behind your hip, and bring your inside heel back and into her side), disengaging the hindquarters so she can't rear but must keep working.

[enjoytheride]

She's doing a nice ol arab trait of being a little ball of backwards thinking pissy pants.

She probably gets slower and slower, she drops behind your leg, and behind the bit using that nice curvy neck, and by the time you get after her she's already all geared up to go backwards. Don't even let her get to that point, establish your forward thinking movement right at the beginning and carry a stick. You want a nice marching trot or walk with contact on the bit and lots of leg. you might not be able to give her rein and let her poke along for a while.

[Iride]

I just want to second the concern that backing a horse up endlessly could escalate the backing problem into rearing. Once that starts.... forget it. Way dangerous. One thing you can try is to make her stand whenever she decides SHE wants to go forward. She eventually should become relieved that she can go forward, and will understand that she will do so when you ask her to, not whenever she feels like it and in her preferred direction (home).

I also second the suggestion to leg yield, or better yet, quarter pass, when she starts to back up. That will free up her hind legs to move forward. I also would not touch the reins AT ALL if she's in backing-up mode. You want the 'door' to be and feel open to her.

[SharonA]

Behind the leg as we approach her dive-out spots? She's not behind the leg. She is not even in the same time zone as the leg, never mind being behind it. She is way slow and dilly-dallying as we approach the dive-out, now that you all make me realize it -- then it's all the more off-putting when she starts bobbing and weaving. You all are very right; I am being too forgiving and too "sympathetic." I was letting her be very slow on the way out to the trails because she's just waking up, we're just out for a nice hack, etc. But you're all very psychic about her behavior. She always does better with firm leadership from the saddle, no matter how casual the ride. Tomorrow, we are going to do a few warm-up exercises in the ring, and then we are going to boldly go where we have gone before, but this time at a nice forward walk, on the bit, etc. Just as zero crap is tolerated in the ringwork, there will be zero crap tolerated as we head out to the trail. Hah! So there, my Arabian princess!

I am going to get the p.o.'d crinkle face, that's for sure. :-)

[twofatponies]

Behind the leg as we approach her dive-out spots? She's not behind the leg. She is not even in the same time zone as the leg, never mind being behind it.

:lol:

[katarine]

She always does better with firm leadership from the saddle, no matter how casual the ride

ANY HORSE ANY WHERE ANY TIME...always does better with firm leadership from the saddle, AND from the ground...no matter how casual the ride.

quick story...Mr Kat's SSH filly came home from the trainer very snappy and sharp- relaxed and happy, but working, you know? Well, Mr Kat is delighted to have love bug, all 16.3 HANDS of her, home. Mr Kat is squishy in his requests, too careful, too gentle. She's getting less snappy. Sluggo girl is reappearing. Last night I watched him cajole her into walking forward to the mounting block and she's sorta thinking about it....I Could Not Take it Anymore. I took filly, Got Crop, Got Busy. You don't walk off when I walk you off and smooch to you? You cock that eye at me and think about whether it fits your schedule? YOU get a quick hard whap in the side for your laziness. Now, Walk. She's not stupid. She got it.

People have people issues with their horses, not horse issues. :cool:

[Icecapade]

[B] You cock that eye at me and think about whether it fits your schedule? YOU get a quick hard whap in the side for your laziness. Now, Walk. She's not stupid. She got it.




ha ha ha quick whap in the side of laziness.... i love it. I had a trainer who told me one time horses understand several few things. One thing they absolutely without a doubt understand is a choice. you do X or there is a big stick.

its an easy training throught... you make them dictact your behavior... you do this and I behave this way... you don't and I don't behave... I behave badly. your actions chose how the course of the evening go.

now grain of salt.. <not adovcating beating here> its a twap not a beat you because you didn't put your head down

[CatOnLap]

well, if that's an arab trick, they must've taught it to the appaloosa horse I'm training right now for its novice rider- he came to me herdbound, and as an evasion, he will back up, rear and spin, at which point his owner would either try and hit and kick him forward resulting in more of same, or give up and go home, herdbound.
So yesterday, after a nice little 20 min warm up in the ring, we went on our first trail ride alone. Didn't get 50 feet out of the driveway when he started to balk.

The only thing I have more of than a horse is patience. I couldn't stop him backing, didn't want to turn it into a physical fight with kicking and hitting. So I just kept him pointed forward, stopped any attempt at turning or rearing and waited. He stopped his fussing as there was no fight back. He stood a couple of minutes, then his ears went forward and he went 3 steps forward, which got a big pat and happy fuss from me. We did that over about half a dozen times, and finally he walked out free and easy on the trail. Until the next "new thing" where he stopped and was ready to repeat. Except this time he only stopped twice before proceeding another half mile or so, then there was ,all at once, a flappy tarptruck passing a car at the same time as a kid came down his driveway on a skateboard. Blew little horsey's mind and he backed into a pine tree. It was mighty uncomfortable waiting for him to gather his wits, as the pine tree had low branches which left me on his neck, but after the tarp and skateboard had passed, he did go forward again and the rest of the ride was uneventful. I fully expect we will have similar incidents next time, but he seems to be getting the idea that its OK to stop and look, but not for too long. Eventually he will trust his rider enough to go forward easily.

Another horse I rehabbed from this habit, I couldn't even get him away from the drive at first, So, we would go and work another 20 minutes in the ring and then walk out onto the trail again. It took a few weeks of this before I could get him actually on the trail, but he did figure out that the trail was much easier than the ring and besides, at the far end of the trail is green grass and he can eat that!
Good luck with your horse!

[gieriscm]

My OTTB was terribly herd-bound/barn sour when I first got him. Getting him onto the trails by himself with no evading or fighting was a battle that took months to accomplish. One of my best tricks was to hold off doing my ring work until I'd returned from the trail ride. So, instead of coming home from the trail and being untacked and put away, we'd go into the ring for 20-30 minutes of serious flat work (no jumping since he enjoyed that).

It wasn't long before I could walk him by the farm gate on a loose rein, and he wouldn't even twitch to go down the driveway.