PDA

View Full Version : USEF reaction on the Courtney/Mythilus case



freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 07:34 PM
USEF reacted on the Positive Drug Test of Mythilus with the following statement:



United States Equestrian Federation Response to FEI Press Release Regarding Positive Drug Test of Mythilus at 2008 Olympic Games


Release: August 27 2008

Lexington, KY - Following a routine drug test on August 19 at the 2008 Olympic Games in Hong Kong, Mythilus, a US dressage horse, ridden by Courtney King-Dye, was found to have tested positive for Felbinac. Felbinac is considered a class A prohibited substance by the FEI. Felbinac is usually applied topically for the relief of local pain and inflammation and belongs to a group of medicines called non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs).

When Mythilus arrived in Hong Kong he was treated in the Hong Kong Jockey Club Clinic for artrial fibrillation as a result of the stress of his trip. USEF Veterinarian, Dr. Rick Mitchell attended to the horse in close cooperation with the Veterinary Commission. King-Dye and Dr. Mitchell believe that during treatment at the clinic, he may have come in contact with Felbinac. In discussion with King-Dye, USEF vets, grooms and physical therapists, no other explanation or conclusion was able to be drawn.

“Neither I nor my vets had ever heard of the drug Felbinac until we got the call about Myth's positive test,” said King-Dye. “We were stunned and baffled. We spent the entire day doing internet research on the uses for this drug and how it could possibly have gotten into my horse's system. As far as we could find it is not even manufactured, approved, or available in the US. My horse has had no soundness problems whatsoever, and I would have no need for an anti-inflammatory. Anyone who knows me knows whole heartedly that I would never dope my horse intentionally. It is cheating; it is not putting your best against the other’s best. I have never been in a more torturous and frustrating situation; trying to prove innocence is very hard. It saddens me beyond description that my whole reputation could be blackened because of this situation.”

The FEI Tribunal stated in their Preliminary Decision that “there are circumstances in this case that makes it difficult to clear out how the Prohibited Substance entered into the horse’s system.”

“The USEF stands behind the FEI's initiatives to rid the sport of doping and to protect the welfare of our horses. We are equally supportive of Courtney in this situation as this substance was unknown to any of us until a few days ago,” said USEF CEO John Long. “It seems clear that Mythilus came into contact with it without Courtney's or Dr. Mitchell's knowledge.”

Bogey2
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:02 PM
thanks theo!

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:06 PM
thanks theo!

Let's keep our fingers crossed for Courtney :yes:

petitefilly
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:20 PM
I would guess from all the info on the net and the fact that vets from countries other than the US were attending to Myth with his heart/breathing problem someone had the drug on themselves or the instruments being used on Myth. How small is a small amount? The drug testing should also have a scale, if the drug in question is miniscule, and the drug needed a certain amount to be a validly used as a pain killer wouldn't the amount show it was an accidental amount?

Is this a drug test that shows say one millionth amount in a drop? Ultrasounding gel on a horse could bring that one millionth particle in a sensitive test.

fordtraktor
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:53 AM
It's so sad to see something like this happen to such a promising up-and-coming rider. It sounds like she will pull through it fine, though.

I am questioning why the American vets had never heard of felbinac -- Surpass is not exactly an unknown product in the US. Every vet I have ever talked to is aware of it. I'm not saying that they used it on Mythilus, just wondering why they aren't aware of it.

I don't question at all that CKD had never heard of it, though -- I don't memorize the ingredient list of every horse product either, particularly if it isn't one I'm using.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:04 AM
I am questioning why the American vets had never heard of felbinac -- Surpass is not exactly an unknown product in the US. Every vet I have ever talked to is aware of it. I'm not saying that they used it on Mythilus, just wondering why they aren't aware of it.



The substance at issue, felbinac, is not an ingredient in Surpass. Felbinac is not approved by the FDA and is not available in the United States. It is an NSAID used in Europe and Asia for humans to manage arthritis and similar conditions as well as, in its gel form, a coupling agent for ultrasounds. There are links to information about it on the CKD thread.

ise@ssl
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:08 AM
I suppose to protect themselves riders might consider having blood samples pulled at varying points in time for their own protection. And having them available should a drug test be performed that reveals a positive results. The other samples could at least show the time frame of change in the results.

Dispatcher
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:08 AM
This drug testing is getting ridiculous. Even the posters here can't agree on what is what. Sheesh!

DMK
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:12 AM
Surpass is diclofenic, not Felbinac. If Felbinac is even approved in this country for animals or humans, it's doing a good job of not showing up on the human or animal (green book) searches in the FDA site. If that is the case, I can see whey a US vet had not heard of it.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:15 AM
Felbinac is also a metabolite of another substance (whose name also starts with F; I am blanking but posted it on the CKD thread).

fordtraktor
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:39 AM
Thanks, that clears it up. I got the Surpass misconception from the other thread, but didn't read through all 144 posts so missed the rest. Makes sense that the US vets would not have it on the radar.

ceffyl
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:39 AM
Surpass is diclofenic, not Felbinac. If Felbinac is even approved in this country for animals or humans, it's doing a good job of not showing up on the human or animal (green book) searches in the FDA site. If that is the case, I can see whey a US vet had not heard of it.

No but you can easly buy it online through a Canadian online pharmacy retailer. It is in gel or foam under the name of Traxam.

poltroon
Aug. 28, 2008, 01:23 PM
It seems quite likely to me that the source is the coupling gel used for the ultrasounds when the Hong Kong veterinarians were examining the heart.

War Admiral
Aug. 28, 2008, 01:29 PM
It seems quite likely to me that the source is the coupling gel used for the ultrasounds when the Hong Kong veterinarians were examining the heart.

I agree... Out of all the positive tests at these games, to me, this one really is the most suspect.

ceffyl
Aug. 28, 2008, 03:03 PM
It seems quite likely to me that the source is the coupling gel used for the ultrasounds when the Hong Kong veterinarians were examining the heart.

Felbinac is used as a coupling medium in ultrasound TREATMENT for acute and chronic conditions were inflamation is present. I seriously doubt if the Hong Kong Olympic veterinarian team would use a knowingly banned substance for a diagnostic. They of all people would be the most learned in FEI, IOC, and WADA rules.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 28, 2008, 03:48 PM
Felbinac is used as a coupling medium in ultrasound TREATMENT for acute and chronic conditions were inflamation is present. I seriously doubt if the Hong Kong Olympic veterinarian team would use a knowingly banned substance for a diagnostic. They of all people would be the most learned in FEI, IOC, and WADA rules.

Yes, but there may have been some gel left on the equipment or it just could have been a mistake. Anyone who thinks that medical mistakes are not made has not read the news story about Dennis Quaid's newborn twins who almost died because they were given the wrong medication.

Eyemadonkee
Aug. 28, 2008, 04:34 PM
Just curious, are the horses watched 24-7 by a groom or security guard? What keeps other riders from petting a competitors horse with a prohibited topical cream on their hand? Obviously, it would be stupid to do that to a horse that placed 13th, but what if Courtney had been in medal contention? Has there ever been any foul play at the olympics (that has been discovered)?

Mozart
Aug. 28, 2008, 05:36 PM
Just curious, are the horses watched 24-7 by a groom or security guard? What keeps other riders from petting a competitors horse with a prohibited topical cream on their hand? Obviously, it would be stupid to do that to a horse that placed 13th, but what if Courtney had been in medal contention? Has there ever been any foul play at the olympics (that has been discovered)?

FEI competitions have "secure" barns, in that you need a special pass to get in and security guards do monitor and only allow those in with passes. However, any further internal security (as in, having someone watch over the horse 24/7) is up to the competitor.

Ruby G. Weber
Aug. 28, 2008, 06:21 PM
I am curious as to the method of treatment for the Atrial Fibrillation in this horse. Anyone know if they attempted to convert him?

I would think Rick Mitchell would know the FEI drug rules backwards and forwards.

This case does sound like lab contamination to me. The Capsaisin, not so much.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 06:25 PM
I am curious as to the method of treatment for the Atrial Fibrillation in this horse. Anyone know if they attempted to convert him?

I am going to refrain from making any one of a number of possible smartass jokes here, but you did make me laugh because of the double entendre.

Ruby G. Weber
Aug. 28, 2008, 06:32 PM
Glad to entertain!

What I meant was did they attempt to convert the horse's heartbeat. AF is, if I remember correctly, an electrical defect.

But maybe they thought converting the horse would then allow the use of Regumate according to FEI. Better?

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 06:35 PM
Glad to entertain!

What I meant was did they attempt to convert the horse's heartbeat. AF is, if I remember correctly, an electrical defect.

But maybe they thought converting the horse would then allow the use of Regumate according to FEI. Better?

I was thinking of the religious freedom issues in China. So I guess that makes it a triple entendre!

hsheffield
Aug. 28, 2008, 06:38 PM
Weber: I believe they used beta blockers. Heard complaints that CDK didn't feel like Myth was himself on these. I'm surprised any beta blocker would be legal....perhaps there was an exception by the FEI?

makes me wonder with Myth going into A Fib (can be stress related): were all those folks who stayed home from Hong Kong right about the trip being too much stress for the horses?

War Admiral
Aug. 28, 2008, 07:06 PM
I'm surprised any beta blocker would be legal....perhaps there was an exception by the FEI?

Now, beta-blockers ARE specifically listed as prohibited on the FEI list, so if they were used, there would have to have been an exception made by the FEI, yes.

slc2
Aug. 28, 2008, 07:17 PM
Who stated it actually was an atrial fibrillation? The older drug is quinidine and there is a newer drug available in japan that is easier to administer.

Ruby G. Weber
Aug. 28, 2008, 07:31 PM
Yes. Slc2 - quinidine is the one I am familiar with. That is why I asked if they tried to convert the horse's heart rhythm as it is pretty toxic, if memory serves me.

I too wonder if it was AF. Usually brought on by a virus, no?

What I've read so far doesn't necessarily add up to AF. One would assume they were able to ultrasound and EKG the heart in HK?

imajicadutch
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:01 PM
When Mythilus arrived in Hong Kong he was treated in the Hong Kong Jockey Club Clinic for atrial fibrillation as a result of the stress of his trip.

This is from the USEF press release.

J-Lu
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:15 PM
Felbinac is also a metabolite of another substance (whose name also starts with F; I am blanking but posted it on the CKD thread).

Fenbufen.

BTW, felbinac is *added* to ultrasound gel for therapeutic purposes...it's not a part of it from the manufacturer.

J-Lu
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:20 PM
Yes. Slc2 - quinidine is the one I am familiar with. That is why I asked if they tried to convert the horse's heart rhythm as it is pretty toxic, if memory serves me.

I too wonder if it was AF. Usually brought on by a virus, no?

What I've read so far doesn't necessarily add up to AF. One would assume they were able to ultrasound and EKG the heart in HK?

Horses CAN be converted...well, their hearts can be:

Transvenous electrical cardioversion of equine atrial fibrillation: patient factors and clinical results in 72 treatment episodes.

McGurrin MK (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22McGurrin%20MK%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Physick-Sheard PW (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Physick-Sheard%20PW%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Kenney DG (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Kenney%20DG%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Department of Clinical Studies, Ontario Veterinary College, University of Guelph, Guelph, ON, Canada. mcgurrin@uoguelph.ca
BACKGROUND: Transvenous electrical cardioversion (TVEC) has been developed for treatment of atrial fibrillation (AF) in horses. The relationship among patient variables, treatment response, and outcome in a typical referral population has not been evaluated. HYPOTHESIS: Patient variables such as age, sex, weight, and duration of arrhythmia affect prognosis for response to treatment and the energy level at which cardioversion occurs. ANIMALS: TVEC was applied to 72 episodes of lone AF in 63 client-owned performance horses, with the majority (54) being Standardbred racehorses. METHODS: Catheterization of the right atrium (RA) and pulmonary artery (PA) through the jugular vein was used for electrode placement before horses were placed under general anesthesia. Biphasic, truncated exponential shock waves were delivered at incremental energy levels until cardioversion was achieved or a maximum single-energy level of 300 J was reached (cumulative energy 50-1,960 J). A multivariate model was constructed to evaluate influence of patient factors on cardioversion energy. RESULTS: Cardioversion was achieved in 71 of 72 episodes (62 of 63 horses) at a mean energy of 165.43 +/- 8.75 J. Cardioversion energy was higher for females than for males, and for interaction terms, weight was negatively related to energy in females and positively related in males. Age was positively related to cardioversion energy in females. No relationship was identified between duration of arrhythmia before treatment and prognosis for response or cardioversion energy. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL IMPORTANCE: TVEC is highly effective in the treatment of lone AF in horses. Although age and sex influence cardioversion energy level, duration of arrhythmia does not.

hsheffield
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:33 PM
electrical cardioversion can treat A Fib but the response can often be temporary with a need for retreatment: sometimes within hours. I imagine they chose beta blockers as its a much 'gentler' method with a typically more stable conversion.

the article above refers to a jugular vein catheter being placed in the right atrium/pulm art. under general anesthesia. I can't imagine that Myth went through all that in HK right before performing a GP test at the Olympics!

when you consider everything she must have been going through, Courtney's shown great focus to have done as well as she did.

J-Lu
Aug. 28, 2008, 10:18 PM
oh sure, hsheffield, I was just addressing Ruby's question about whether horses could be converted, and without drugs.

I have no idea how they treated Mythilus, but recent studies in the literature show that electrical conversion can be highly effective. Some horses don't tolerate the various drugs well. Recent publications also describe that horses can undergo catheterization and electrode placement without general anesthesia or additional drugs. Don't know how often the techniques are used in practice but they are published about in the vet literature.

I don't know, but I'm not convinced that the procedure is highly traumatic. At least, the catheterization and ultrasound part. Humans tolerate it very well and walk out of the office (for example, my dad went through cardiac catheterization two weeks ago). ???

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 10:39 PM
I don't know, but I'm not convinced that the procedure is highly traumatic.

Man, you guys are a tough crowd.

J-Lu
Aug. 28, 2008, 11:48 PM
Man, you guys are a tough crowd.

I'm a physiologist. Cardiac catheterization (on one hand), cardiac dysfuntion (on the other hand).... I was in a pediatric cardiology department for a while and kids dealt with cardiac catheterization OK. I believe that *in general*, if you are a creature experiencing cardiac dysfunction, a wierd feeling due to the advancement of catheters in your vein or artery is the least of your wierd physical feelings.

Kenike
Aug. 29, 2008, 12:27 AM
I'm one who got confused on the other thread with the Surpass thing. I apologize....and thank you for setting it straight!

At this point, I think I'm goign to side with CKD and hope for the best for her and Myth. How heartbreaking!

And also a thanks to everyone for the education on conversion (which also made me laugh), cath stuff, etc. Truly...I mean that.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 29, 2008, 01:05 PM
I'm a physiologist. Cardiac catheterization (on one hand), cardiac dysfuntion (on the other hand).... I was in a pediatric cardiology department for a while and kids dealt with cardiac catheterization OK. I believe that *in general*, if you are a creature experiencing cardiac dysfunction, a wierd feeling due to the advancement of catheters in your vein or artery is the least of your wierd physical feelings.

Well, I am only the daughter of someone who had severe cardiac problems for 34 years before ultimately passing away at age 60 from his fifth heart attack, but as a result I spent a large part of my childhood and young adulthood with cardiologists in some of the leading hospitals here and abroad. Being able to do a procedure on an outpatient basis and being able to compete in the Olympics within a couple of weeks after -- in high heat and humidity, no less -- are two different things.

And even routine vet procedures can be stressful for some horses. In any event, I think it is miraculous that they were able to not only get Myth back to health quickly, but that he was able to excel in the way he did at the Games. And it is a real credit to Courtney that she was able to stay focused and turn in such a strong performance.

JAGold
Aug. 29, 2008, 03:52 PM
I've actually had the procedure (cardiac catheterization and, in my case, radio frequency ablation). I can assure you, it was much less traumatic than the events and symptoms that led up to it :D I was out of the hospital in 48 hours; there was virtually no "recovery" time after leaving the hospital when my heart rate returned to normal and the routine precautions about a blood clot forming after the catheterization had passed. Best of all, in my case, the "cure" was more or less instantaneous. I have no idea what Mythilus's condition was or how he was treated, but I don't have trouble believing that the procedure allowed him to return to competition shape very quickly.

merrygoround
Aug. 29, 2008, 04:07 PM
It seems quite likely to me that the source is the coupling gel used for the ultrasounds when the Hong Kong veterinarians were examining the heart.

Finally a grain of sense!!!

This will all leave the US team older and wiser.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 29, 2008, 04:36 PM
Fenbufen.

BTW, felbinac is *added* to ultrasound gel for therapeutic purposes...it's not a part of it from the manufacturer.

Actually, felbinac IS available in gel form.

LLDM
Aug. 30, 2008, 10:54 AM
Therapeutic ultrasound and diagnostic ultrasound are two completely different animals. I am pretty sure they use two completely different types of machines. The Ultrasound in my PT's office doesn't even have a monitor on it. So I am pretty much discrediting the theory that the NSAID got on the horse because it was left over on the probe. I find that highly unlikely.

Not saying she did anything wrong, or right for that matter, but just thinking 'Probe-gate' is not a track worth taking. ;)

SCFarm

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 10:59 AM
In fact, people are making INCREDIBLE assumptions about what was going on and what the horse was treated with. For all you guys know, he was sent to the clinic and observed til his heart rate settled down, none of you have any idea how serious it was or what was done.

None of you have ANY idea how the horse was treated, what medications or procedures he was given. NONE OF YOU KNOW. Time to quit pretending you know anything about it!

J-Lu
Aug. 30, 2008, 12:56 PM
In fact, people are making INCREDIBLE assumptions about what was going on and what the horse was treated with. For all you guys know, he was sent to the clinic and observed til his heart rate settled down, none of you have any idea how serious it was or what was done.

None of you have ANY idea how the horse was treated, what medications or procedures he was given. NONE OF YOU KNOW. Time to quit pretending you know anything about it!

had to keep that official quote...


Actually, felbinac IS available in gel form.

The point I am making, YankeeLawyer, is that you choose the ultrasound gel that has the drug in it for specific purposes. Felbinac would not be a "hidden ingredient" in ultrasound gel, as some had suggested. Does this make sense to you in the *context of the other posts*? At the time, people were talking about ultrasound gel.

SLC2, your post is very inappropriate. Please point out where anyone said *this happened to Mythilus*. If you actually read the posts on this thread, people were asking about atrial fibrillation IN GENERAL. My posts were about treatment options IN GENERAL, despite the fact that you and a few others continue to link any generalized discussion specifically to Courtney and Mythilus. I realize that you and others are following and prolifically writing on many Courtney King threads at the moment, but I implore you to actually READ the content of each thread and context of each post. Otherwise, your posts just don't fit into the conversation on a particular thread. And, as one of the more prolific *speculators* about Courtney, the treatment of Mythilus, and what will happen with the hearing, the fact that you post here telling people to "quit spending time pretending you know anything about" the situation is hilarious!! How amazing it would be if you took your own advice! Should I copy and paste your words into the other threads after every post you speculate in?

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 03:53 PM
That's ok, J-Lu, I think alot of your posts are inappropriate too, but I just let it go, without responding with the personal insults :)

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2008, 07:03 PM
I don't think any of SLC's posts re CKD were inappropriate. She certainly was not one of the ones who prompted Ms. Gray's post, in any event.

Arathita
Aug. 31, 2008, 01:42 AM
I have to agree with J-Lu. Slc2, it seems like you didn't read this thread, so your post asking people not to talk about CK doesn't make sense. Can you refer to the posts where people were talking about Mythilus's treatment as opposed to general treatment? I might have missed the general gist of the thread.

Arathita
Aug. 31, 2008, 01:51 AM
I don't think any of SLC's posts re CKD were inappropriate. She certainly was not one of the ones who prompted Ms. Gray's post, in any event.

Your point is....

ridexc
Aug. 31, 2008, 02:18 AM
Sheesh, did no-one read the article about atrial fibrillation I wrote for the Chronicle about 18 months ago? <G>

I have no idea how or IF Mythilus was treated for his a-fib in Hong Kong, but just on a hypothetical level, if he did not convert to a normal rhythm on his own it would have made more sense to treat him with the electrical shock method than to use quinidine. Quinidine is extremely toxic stuff, and horses generally need weeks to recover from it, while horses who are 'converted' electrically are almost always back in work within a couple of days. It has been used over and over again in Standardbreds who are back jogging two days later and often race within the week. Given the timeframe of the Olympics, it would almost certainly have been the treatment of choice.

It's true, btw, that some horses revert to a-fib after treatment, but the incidence of that is no higher with electrical conversion than with quinidine IIRC. Some horses do, some don't. Repeat treatments are well-tolerated and usually do the trick.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 31, 2008, 02:37 AM
Your point is....

What exactly is your point?

slc2
Aug. 31, 2008, 08:52 AM
ridexc, i read an article in a horse mag recently about treating a draft mule that way (electric).

J-Lu
Aug. 31, 2008, 12:02 PM
That's ok, J-Lu, I think alot of your posts are inappropriate too, but I just let it go, without responding with the personal insults :)

Please answer the question at hand. We were talking about atrial fib and treatments in general - quite fine until you came along with your very negative post. If you can find the posts that warranted your post screaming for people to stop speculating about Courtney and Mythilus, you might have been appropriate. Since we weren't talking about Courtney and Mythilus specifically but fibrillation in general, your post was inappropriate for the content of this thread. So, please point out all of the offending posts. Otherwise, consider apologizing for derailing an otherwise productive thread or simply begin to join in with APPROPRIATE and CONSTRUCTIVE comments that fit the actual topic of the thread. It's really pretty simple.

J-Lu
Aug. 31, 2008, 12:12 PM
I don't think any of SLC's posts re CKD were inappropriate. She certainly was not one of the ones who prompted Ms. Gray's post, in any event.


Oh brother. :rolleyes:

ridgeback
Aug. 31, 2008, 02:56 PM
Please answer the question at hand. We were talking about atrial fib and treatments in general - quite fine until you came along with your very negative post. If you can find the posts that warranted your post screaming for people to stop speculating about Courtney and Mythilus, you might have been appropriate. Since we weren't talking about Courtney and Mythilus specifically but fibrillation in general, your post was inappropriate for the content of this thread. So, please point out all of the offending posts. Otherwise, consider apologizing for derailing an otherwise productive thread or simply begin to join in with APPROPRIATE and CONSTRUCTIVE comments that fit the actual topic of the thread. It's really pretty simple.

Good Luck...She's often misquoted me and when I point it out she ignores it, I guess she doesn't like to admit when she's wrong...Don't hold your breath on that apology.

slc2
Aug. 31, 2008, 03:26 PM
You say I misquote you. I say I see what you say differently from what you see it.

It isn't a matter of not wanting to be proven wrong, J-Lu, it's that if i respond to what you're asking, i feel it won't be discussed fairly or calmly, it will just get attacked more. To get someone to respond to you, you need to create an environment in which they feel there is some sort of point in responding. I don't have any problem with being wrong. that's not the issue to me.

ridgeback
Aug. 31, 2008, 03:28 PM
You say I misquote you. I say I see what you say differently from what you see it.

It isn't a matter of not wanting to be proven wrong, J-Lu, it's that if i respond to what you're asking, i feel it won't be discussed fairly or calmly, it will just get attacked more. To get someone to respond to you, you need to create an environment in which they feel there is some sort of point in responding. I don't have any problem with being wrong. that's not the issue to me.

Well SLC since I wrote it and I know what I said and meant I'd say you are incorrect...No big deal I understand it's hard for some to admit when they're wrong. Stop reading into things just read what is written...no worries many on this board do the same thing you do.

FirstPost
Aug. 31, 2008, 03:40 PM
In fact, people are making INCREDIBLE assumptions about what was going on and what the horse was treated with. For all you guys know, he was sent to the clinic and observed til his heart rate settled down, none of you have any idea how serious it was or what was done.

None of you have ANY idea how the horse was treated, what medications or procedures he was given. NONE OF YOU KNOW. Time to quit pretending you know anything about it!

I do know, from Courtney directly, more about the matter than has been released. Courtney is not allowed to comment publically about a pending case, but I hope passing on the below will not violate any one's privacy, but instead will calm the waters a little.

When Courtney and the team arrived in Hong Kong, all the horses were in good health. They had a day off, then were all tack walked the second day. Myth didn't feel right to Courtney. The team vet, Dr. Mitchell did an extremely thorough exam, and he found that the horse was in atrial fibrillation. His heart beat was erratic. Dr. Mitchell went directly to the Veterinary Commission to consult with their professionals. Several ECG's were performed, and his heart was ultrasounded. Dr. Mitchell and the vet commission recommended that Mythilus be given a drug called Quinnidine in order to convert his heart back to a regular rhythm. It is given through a stomach tube every 4 hours, and has about a 60% success rate. Myth was taken to the clinic 9 times and was intubated through his nostril and down his throat to give him this medicine. They stopped at 9 doses. All of the drugs were known and approved prior to treatment. None were labeled with any banned substances. After Courtney began to ride Myth (with veterinary permission) he got better with work instead of struggling. While the reserve rider was standing by ready to ride an hour before the first GP test, it was determined Myth (and by the way, Brentina and Ravel as well) were fully fit to perform. Myth and Courtney, as we all know, did a fantastic job. No one, Courtney especially would have permitted the horse to perform if there were any chance of his test compromising his health.

When the news came there was Felbinac in Myth's sample, all of the US vets and USEF people were stymied, and had to do (much as the folks on this thread have done) internet research trying to figure what Felbinac was, and they discoverd it's a topical anti inflammatory mostly used on humans... not, as far as they could find, manufactured, approved, or available anywhere in the US. It's not as suprising as you might think that US vets might not know about a non-equine med not in use in America, any more than it would be surpising if your top notch pediatrician would be surprised and puzzled by Bute showing up in a child's test.

Courtney has said that EVERYONE has been incredibly supportive and doing their best to find out how this has happened. The USEF and USOC know clearly that this is a mystery to be solved, since there is no obvious way Felbinac could have come in contact with the horse. Courtney further points out that there would be no benefit to her using an NSAID since Myth has no history of any lameness issues that would benefit from such medication.

I've neve posted on this board before, but felt we could do with a little more information. I am very touched at how may people trust and support Courtney. IT IS FULLY MERITED. Let's hang tight and see what the outcome is. Rest assured, no one involved thinks there was any intentional wrongdoing. Everyone followed all rules and procedures. I hope truth will out, and if there's any positive outcome from this mess, it will result in a more realistic doping policy.

ridgeback
Aug. 31, 2008, 03:47 PM
I do know, from Courtney directly, more about the matter than has been released. Courtney is not allowed to comment publically about a pending case, but I hope passing on the below will not violate any one's privacy, but instead will calm the waters a little.

When Courtney and the team arrived in Hong Kong, all the horses were in good health. They had a day off, then were all tack walked the second day. Myth didn't feel right to Courtney. The team vet, Dr. Mitchell did an extremely thorough exam, and he found that the horse was in atrial fibrillation. His heart beat was erratic. Dr. Mitchell went directly to the Veterinary Commission to consult with their professionals. Several ECG's were performed, and his heart was ultrasounded. Dr. Mitchell and the vet commission recommended that Mythilus be given a drug called Quinnidine in order to convert his heart back to a regular rhythm. It is given through a stomach tube every 4 hours, and has about a 60% success rate. Myth was taken to the clinic 9 times and was intubated through his nostril and down his throat to give him this medicine. They stopped at 9 doses. All of the drugs were known and approved prior to treatment. None were labeled with any banned substances. After Courtney began to ride Myth (with veterinary permission) he got better with work instead of struggling. While the reserve rider was standing by ready to ride an hour before the first GP test, it was determined Myth (and by the way, Brentina and Ravel as well) were fully fit to perform. Myth and Courtney, as we all know, did a fantastic job. No one, Courtney especially would have permitted the horse to perform if there were any chance of his test compromising his health.

When the news came there was Felbinac in Myth's sample, all of the US vets and USEF people were stymied, and had to do (much as the folks on this thread have done) internet research trying to figure what Felbinac was, and they discoverd it's a topical anti inflammatory mostly used on humans... not, as far as they could find, manufactured, approved, or available anywhere in the US. It's not as suprising as you might think that US vets might not know about a non-equine med not in use in America, any more than it would be surpising if your top notch pediatrician would be surprised and puzzled by Bute showing up in a child's test.

Courtney has said that EVERYONE has been incredibly supportive and doing their best to find out how this has happened. The USEF and USOC know clearly that this is a mystery to be solved, since there is no obvious way Felbinac could have come in contact with the horse. Courtney further points out that there would be no benefit to her using an NSAID since Myth has no history of any lameness issues that would benefit from such medication.

I've neve posted on this board before, but felt we could do with a little more information. I am very touched at how may people trust and support Courtney. IT IS FULLY MERITED. Let's hang tight and see what the outcome is. Rest assured, no one involved thinks there was any intentional wrongdoing. Everyone followed all rules and procedures. I hope truth will out, and if there's any positive outcome from this mess, it will result in a more realistic doping policy.

Thank you!! A friend's horse died being given what sounds like the same drug for the same reason but in to high of a dose. Apparently the University was used to doing it with TB's and standard breds and since WB have more body fat they didn't give it time to get through the horse's system and it ended up killing her. That drug is pretty nasty...

Mardi
Aug. 31, 2008, 09:32 PM
My concern remains that if it comes to pass that Felbinac was in some way an inadvertent (read negligent) part of the medication or procedures used on Mythilus during his time in the Hong Kong Jockey Club Vet clinic, and IF the FEI, et al. do not clear Courtney of any wrong doing, then someone may have a quite a lawsuit on their hands.

shadowdancer
Sep. 1, 2008, 02:24 AM
Here is the big problem for me. Its nice to see the USEF be supportive of CKs supposoed innocence as they state in their PR. However, the USEF also declared Brentina sound the day after her lame performance in Hong Kong.

ridgeback
Sep. 1, 2008, 08:00 AM
Here is the big problem for me. Its nice to see the USEF be supportive of CKs supposoed innocence as they state in their PR. However, the USEF also declared Brentina sound the day after her lame performance in Hong Kong.

Ahh hit the nail on the head...Although I think in CKD case it was an innocent mistake because of the heart issue...I just want to know if the heart ever returned to normal rhythm before she showed him. I sure hope he gets back without any issues.

Lieslot
Sep. 1, 2008, 01:00 PM
Quinidine is extremely toxic stuff, and horses generally need weeks to recover from it, while horses who are 'converted' electrically are almost always back in work within a couple of days. It has been used over and over again in Standardbreds who are back jogging two days later and often race within the week. Given the timeframe of the Olympics, it would almost certainly have been the treatment of choice.

Quinidine is extremely toxic, however during conversion treatment horses are monitored by a vet round the clock and any signs of even the smallest of side effects and the treatment is stopped immediately.
My horse converted after 6 treatments, after the 5th he showed signs of mild depression, nothing else, no colic, no diahrrea, not nothing!
He got one day with halter monitor, back home the next and back under the saddle day 3. It does not have to take weeks to recover if the horse showed no side effects from the drug during treatment.

Standardbreds are smaller horses then huge large WB's. My horse is an 18h+WB and his heart did not fit the monitor properly, so not all that great a case for electrocardioversion. Plus the risks of waking out of anaesthesia can be as big as the quinidine treatment. I wouldn't say one is preferred above the other.

Why horse's go into Afib, one doesn't know really. Potassium imbalance is possible. But I'm sure they did an excretional potassium test on Myth and I couldn't believe a horse under topnotch veterinary care would have a potassium imbalance gone unnoticed.

slc2
Sep. 1, 2008, 02:39 PM
Being wrong about one thing doesn't make an organization necessarily wrong about something else.

I am not even sure people here could come to a consensus on the difference between how these three terms would actually look in any given horse: lame, uneven, tense.

People cannot look at the video of Brentina and agree about what was going on.

I have heard EXTREMELY different interpretations of that few minutes. You can take two people from here who consider themselves absolute experts at seeing correct work, and they won't both agree if Brentina was 'uneven' or 'just tense'. I dare say what they will declare was going on depends much more on how they feel about Brentina and Debbie MacDonald, than what actually was going on.

And I would not assume which or whose vets pronounced Brentina 'ok', or if what that vet says, is controlled by the FEI. I would not also assume what sort of exam was done, what tests were done, or not done. My guess would be that any examination was very brief, but I don't know that for sure.

There are things that can cause uneven stride at that level of effort, that would be impossible to quickly diagnose and find - OR to exclude for sure. I've seen people take horses to multiple vets over a course of months in an attempt to determine what is causing uneven strides at the harder levels.

J. Turner
Sep. 1, 2008, 03:08 PM
It is given through a stomach tube every 4 hours, and has about a 60% success rate. Myth was taken to the clinic 9 times and was intubated through his nostril and down his throat to give him this medicine.

I hope truth will out, and if there's any positive outcome from this mess, it will result in a
more realistic doping policy.

I do hope a more realistic doping policy comes out. As I posted, they know the half-lives of these drugs.

Also, Naso-gastric tubes they use for colics are not sterile. If this NG tube was not sterile (the GI track is not sterile so usually doesn't call for sterile procedure), couldn't many things be on the inside or outside of the tube?

Wouldn't it be interesting if someone interviewed all the vets and techs that handled Myth and found out if they use topical Felbinac? After this, if I had an FEI horse I think I would insist that vets or techs use gloves.

Sister Margarita
Sep. 1, 2008, 04:08 PM
Being wrong about one thing doesn't make an organization necessarily wrong about something else.

I am not even sure people here could come to a consensus on the difference between how these three terms would actually look in any given horse: lame, uneven, tense.

People cannot look at the video of Brentina and agree about what was going on.

I have heard EXTREMELY different interpretations of that few minutes. You can take two people from here who consider themselves absolute experts at seeing correct work, and they won't both agree if Brentina was 'uneven' or 'just tense'. I dare say what they will declare was going on depends much more on how they feel about Brentina and Debbie MacDonald, than what actually was going on.

And I would not assume which or whose vets pronounced Brentina 'ok', or if what that vet says, is controlled by the FEI. I would not also assume what sort of exam was done, what tests were done, or not done. My guess would be that any examination was very brief, but I don't know that for sure.

There are things that can cause uneven stride at that level of effort, that would be impossible to quickly diagnose and find - OR to exclude for sure. I've seen people take horses to multiple vets over a course of months in an attempt to determine what is causing uneven strides at the harder levels.

Perhaps this is for another thread, but I do agree.
At the highest demand for collection and extension, tension can do many things to gaits.

slc2
Sep. 1, 2008, 04:13 PM
That's not what I was saying. I said that it is very difficult to quickly diagnose or exclude a condition that would cause an uneven stride at that level of effort.

"Tension can do a lot to a horse's gait" goes right along with "Brentina was just tense, not lame".

While the general principle that tension can affect a gait is true, it is not at all clear that that was or wasn't what happened to Brentina during the Olympics. I think most people would like very much to think that was the case.

J-Lu
Sep. 5, 2008, 12:17 AM
You say I misquote you. I say I see what you say differently from what you see it.

It isn't a matter of not wanting to be proven wrong, J-Lu, it's that if i respond to what you're asking, i feel it won't be discussed fairly or calmly, it will just get attacked more. To get someone to respond to you, you need to create an environment in which they feel there is some sort of point in responding. I don't have any problem with being wrong. that's not the issue to me.

You have to be honest with yourself and the board, slc2. You made assertions, so back them up. Simple. It's not about me or anyone else creating any kind of environment for you. You have to accept the environment *you created for yourself and deal with it*. When you post erroneous material, people will call you on it. Show me the posts that justified your post.

Please don't derail this thread again with chat about Brentina. She didn't have atrial fibrillation, last I knew.

Thank you, Firstpost, for the information about Myth's treatment. I seriously don't believe that anyone thinks Courtney or her team intentionally tried to skirt the drug testing - I think people believe it is an unfortunate mishap. I think that cases like hers are important because they will spark fundimental changes in drug testing policies for the next Olympics. I honestly don't think that her reputation is tarnished at all. She is not the first top dressage rider who was surprised by a postive test after a competition.

J.

slc2
Sep. 5, 2008, 07:11 AM
I think it's more about having to agree with specific people, and if one doesn't one gets all sorts of righteous indignation, and what one says, picked apart and analyzed to death word by word to the point of ridiculousness - if you're looking hard enough at anyone's posts you can find things wrong with them if you're determined enough....faced with that, who would ever feel like responding?

Do I have mistakes and erroneous statements? Yes. What does that mean? I'm human and I'm not dead, it's not that I dislike being wrong at all, it's that it doesn't bother me. I expect to be wrong and to learn new things and change my mind - all the time. Constantly. Why? Because hopefully, every day I'm learning something new. As far as I'm concerned, I better be learning something new every day, or there isn't much reason to get out of bed in the morning.

But alot of this is not wrong or right, it''s opinion, and people have a right to say what their opinions are, whether someone else agrees or not. I'm not asking you to change your opinion or picking apart what you say, I'm just saying what I think.

And if there's a 'discrepancy' (like those who are screaming 'The horse got a vet exam! It's not lame!') - well, why doesn't that mean that much to me? There's a very good reason for that.

When someone isn't viewing something the same way as you, it usually means some of what was reported, they are interpreting differently from you. Everyone's got their own thought process, and what they themselves believe and think is important.

Such as here, alot of discussions on the judging, have said, if a horse gets naughty during a test he should get a much lower score and should not win. Others have said, that's not how the judging is structured, and the response often is, 'I still don't like it that a horse can win after doing a big blooper in a test'.

That is a value based statement. It isn't wrong or right. It's an opinion. You may not agree but people DO feel that way.

If I say in discussions of (reported) facts, 'but that part of it doesn't matter to me', you can't just say, 'You have to think about it differently', everyone is allowed to view these things differently, last time I checked.

And if you want to talk about specifics and stop being just very *itchy, I'll respond to some decent questions.

What's the bottom line? I don't know what happened with the Olympics this time, but I think it was a mess for us, basically. From start to finish. From selection til the end of the tests and freestyles.

Not that we were exactly alone, LOL. There are often MANY messes at the Olympics. And have been many times before. We expect everything to be perfect at the Olympics, no horses should be naughty, none should spook, no mistakes should appear in the tests.

Most people don't pay quite as much attention to other major events, but what happens at the Olympics is examined by more people more minutely and with very high expectations, and people seem to get much, much more upset about Olympic results than any other event.

slc2
Sep. 5, 2008, 08:54 AM
Re vet exams, unevenness, Courtney, etc.

I don't think one can assume anything about Courtney's case. People have brought up a lot of good points on both sides and suggested alot of possibilities. Most of the public doesn't seem to think Courtney would give her horse an anti inflammatory medication, much less take a horse to any major competition if it wasn't right, but not everyone agrees and they site different issues to back up their view. Several have said they wouldn't want a horse that was treated for irregular heart rhythm to be shown after that, others brought up their experiences that the treatment can be quick and the horse feel perfectly fine after.

What do I think? I think that riders can have a lot of pressure on them, and also that there's a lot more people around the horse than just the rider. Based on some information, it does appear some horses 'convert' and go right back to work with no further problems.

I think we'll probably never hear all the details, that there will be a lot of talk, and that I won't ever be 100% sure what exactly happened, and that we'll each come to our own conclusions.

As far as lameness, uneveness. There are many possibilities. This is another issue where people have very different views.

How do I see it. First, I think there are many times when a horse becomes uneven in the extended trot at the top level of competition. It isn't necessarily that the horse is in any pain at all, this can happen simply because of ageing. Old, healed injuries often create a slight imbalance in the stride, so can just the ageing process, and if an injury has healed it can somewhat change the dynamics of the stride.

The horse alters his stride, very slightly, so he ISN'T in pain and can work comfortably. If he did get pushed to take perfectly even strides, it might actually be painful, but this sort of thing is a 'gait adjustment' or compensation.

There isn't necessarily ANYTHING for a vet to find at all. Exams would be normal, there isn't anything active, pathological TO find. And it may only happen at certain times - such as when there is a certain type of footing, the rider urges the horse more, or the horse gets tight and looky.

Of course there are many other possibilities. The horse could be in pain, and actually what most people call 'lame', taking weight off a painful foot or tendon, or the like, every time it takes a stride, such as it would with a bruise or just-strained tendon. If a horse is lame, the gait alteration is more consistently present, but it may take a good eye to see it.

But there are many, many horses that are in a very, very gray area, and even with these, a veterinary exam might not find anything definite to point to.

Under certain conditions, they aren't in pain but if worked harder, more days or months, or different surfaces etc, they actually to the point of being uncomfortable, not just adjusting the stride. Some horses are just uneven, and aren't at all uncomfortable.

Normally, when an older horse starts getting uneven, even when they are not uncomfortable, and only show this at the extended trot (so would not be eliminated), the tradition has been that this horse should no longer be shown at the top of the sport, even if it would not be eliminate-able. Even if he's not actually sore, and is just adjusting his gait. While other organizations may be different, both the rules and the traditions of the FEI community follow those lines (no not everyone follows that).

In fact, this is a very strong tradition, so much that Reiner Klimke, at his clinic at St George Eq Ctr in 1993, said that he personally had pushed for an extended trot at the end of the GP test, so that a certain top competitor would be guaranteed to not win. It would lose enough points that the rider would no longer even place, and that was the idea. The horse was retired after the test was changed. Klimke gave the impression that he and his peers were not at all pleased that the horse was being shown , and that they wanted to stop it. He also laughed quite often during the discussion, which I interpreted as, 'we have our ways of stopping this sort of thing'.

I asked which horse he was referring to. I was told it was Corlandus. Yep, that's what I was told. Is it true? I wasn't involved, so I don't know for sure. But I do believe this kind of thing has happened and can happen.

Why aren't such 'grey area' horses eliminated? Because a horse can't be eliminated for being 'unlevel' or 'uneven' in one movement or even possibly, one gait. If it's bad enough in one gait, it is possible, but in general, it's not likely iin one movement or even one gait (which was the basis of a discussion here on stringhalt, and a few people told us their horses were never eliminated for lameness in dressage shows, since the odd gait only shows at the walk - part of that can be that it's generally felt stringhalt isn't painful, and that exercise is good for those horses).

The bottom line is that the ground jury inspects horses at a trot on a loose rein, and they are not using all their 4 legs (hips, back, shoulder, etc) to the maximum (no, I don't think all unlevelness comes from the hind legs, but that's often the case).

However, the tradition is, that when this happens, you stop showing the horse. If the horse is just adjusting his stride due to age changes, is occasionally uncomfortable, or is frankly uncomfortable. That's just always been the standard people have been held to (no, it has not always been followed).

Do I know what was going on with Brentina? No. The above is a general discussion of issues and history.

ridgeback
Sep. 5, 2008, 09:00 AM
Did you only see it in the extended trot?

egontoast
Sep. 5, 2008, 09:02 AM
Slc, this thread is not about you.

Thank you to those who have provided some useful information and food for thought.

slc2
Sep. 5, 2008, 09:24 AM
egon, if i answer questions, i'm trying to make it be about me. if i don't, i'm being a hypocrit and many other nasty things. at least you're back on form. i was worried that you were sick.

my post isn't about making it about me. i'm actually interested in the issue and have been thinking about it alot, as most people who are interested in dressage have been doing.

Ridgeback, it is obvious in the videos of the extended trot, I was sticking to that as more people seemed to agree they could see uneveness in the extended trot, they don't agree as to the cause, some say it's just tension, not lameness. In the post above i say there are many possibilities.

I think I see a slight unevenness at other times on and off during recent tests of the horse, and some people here have said they also think they see that. For something slight or subtle, I prefer to see it in person rather than relying on a video, though.

freestyle2music
Sep. 5, 2008, 09:55 AM
Let's assume that the judges weren't blind. In the first part of the test (trot) we already saw only 6 and 5 scores and an incidendal 7.
Brentina moved to the higher scores in the Pa-Pi tour. (7 and 8's) . At the canter tour the scores dropped down to 6's and 5's again and after the flying changes to 4's and 5's in the rest of the canter tour.

Not only one judge but all five.

And why would a "gentleman pür sang" which Ghislain Fouarge is, and always will stay, make a statement like "this horse shouldn't be here" .

Was it tension of Brentina ? I don't buy it !

Theo

slc2
Sep. 5, 2008, 10:28 AM
yep.

mazu
Sep. 5, 2008, 10:52 AM
egon, if i answer questions, i'm trying to make it be about me. if i don't, i'm being a hypocrit and many other nasty things. at least you're back on form. i was worried that you were sick.

What questions did you answer in your posts?

slc2
Sep. 5, 2008, 11:03 AM
i said i will answer other questions, above i tried to just clarify what i was thinking about the two issues. which is basically, i can think of a lot of history and issues and possibles, but i don't think it's possible for me to have a firm position on something i wasn't directly involved in and don't have more detail on.

egontoast
Sep. 5, 2008, 11:10 AM
said i will answer other questions, above i tried to just clarify what i was thinking about the two issues. which is basically, i can think of a lot of history and issues and possibles, but i don't think it's possible for me to have a firm position on something i wasn't directly involved in and don't have more detail on

oh my.

goeslikestink
Sep. 6, 2008, 06:31 AM
i said i will answer other questions, above i tried to just clarify what i was thinking about the two issues. which is basically, i can think of a lot of history and issues and possibles, but i don't think it's possible for me to have a firm position on something i wasn't directly involved in and don't have more detail on.


thats becuase you talk a load of codswallop and cant back up your statements with facts

~Freedom~
Sep. 6, 2008, 09:10 AM
i said i will answer other questions, above i tried to just clarify what i was thinking about the two issues. which is basically, i can think of a lot of history and issues and possibles, but i don't think it's possible for me to have a firm position on something i wasn't directly involved in and don't have more detail on.

My dear girl, that NEVER held you back before. Have the typing fingers gotten tired at this crucial time?

slc2
Sep. 6, 2008, 10:01 AM
It's pretty hard to 'prove' an opinion, which involves a personal choice as to what the person feels is most important. People select facts they feel are important to form their opinion. They may discount or ignore other facts, or may explain that they felt those particular facts were irrelevant, etc.

Often, the answer to 'but you are ignoring XYZ' is, 'yes, I know, because i don't consider XYZ to be important'. That's a judgement call. Someone else thinks XYZ is an important part of the discussion? Vive la difference.

In my case, i often do see no point in discussing something in public when someone is being so antagonistic, anyone who is really interested in a discussion instead of an attack can PM me - IF they really are interested in having a sensible discussion.

And actually, I think that's a very natural response and one that is legit and justified. You don't - well what dy'a know, since it's you doing the attacking, of course you think you're right. Big surprise.

On this thread, the main attack seems to be that I have no right to say people shouldn't speculate without more facts, because no one was speculating on this thread.

But my comment wasn't directed at this thread, and I ddin't SAY it was being done on this thread. I was making a much more general comment.

And I think I have a right to say it, actually, and that it's not codswallop at all.

Example:

"I think people believe it is an unfortunate mishap." (J-Lu, re Mythilus).

Actually, I don't agree with that. I have just heard far too many opinions that don't follow that line. J-Lu, maybe you think all the people saying anything else have 'unimportant opinions' or that, 'if they read the reports, they wouldn't think that way. They think that way because they aren't as well informed and experienced as I am. Therefore, 'people' believe it's just a mistake, because anyone saying something other than my opinion doesn't count'.

That's not the kind of reasoning I believe in. What I believe in is that 'people's responses to this situation are all over the map. Their feelings about it are highly affected by their values and their experiences, which are all very different.

Yeah, at first I thought people would all agree, too. But then my alarm clock went off, and that feeling stopped.

The treatment on other bb's doesn't indicate exactly all people believe that, neither do the conversations I hear or anythign else, indicate that there is a unified 'people' that all believe that. I sort of WISH people believed that, but that is what it is - wishful thinking.

I've asked others how the European response sounds, and I can tell you alot of the responses were extremely not-what-you-want-to-hear and not saying it was a mistake...and even the responses in the USA are not at all uniform, and 'people' looks to me, to be a very fragmented, opinionated group. I've heard quite a few people respond with, 'felbinac hell, i want to know how in the sam hill can a horse have a heart arhythmia and then go do an Olympic GP test, how is that fair to the horse, how is that even allowed', and plenty of uglier stuff, in fact.

There are people here, actually, who have suggested the horse was deliberately given felbinac by someone, and/or that that was connected to a problem with his shoeing reported on in June. And yes, I think people are plenty clever enough to say, 'well there was that shoeing thing in june' and let OTHERS connect the dots, and say, 'but i never said that!' if it turns out that concept later turns out to be unpopular.

There are also people here who have suggested that there wasn't any felbinac in the horse at all, and that the lab messed up, deliberately or not deliberately, Chinese sabotage, etc.

I did one post where I tried to summarize all the possibilities people were discussing - it was rather long, and I didn't even include all the 'it's all the FEI's fault, their drug rules are stupid' stuff.