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Coreene
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:18 PM
From the FEI Press News that came out in the last few minutes:

The FEI would also like to communicate an additional doping/medication case at the 2008 Olympic Games concerning Courtney King (USA) and Mythilus, who tested positive for the banned substance Felbinac, considered a « medication class A » prohibited substance. Felbinac is applied topically for the relief of local pain and inflammation and belongs to a group of medicines called non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs).

Courtney King, who placed 13th individually in the Dressage competition, was officially notified on the morning of 22 August of the positive test result and the decision for provisional suspension was upheld that evening at a preliminary hearing before one member of the FEI Tribunal.

Given that the Dressage events of the 2008 Olympic Games ended on 19 August it was decided to wait until the confirmatory B analysis prior to any public announcement of the findings. The FEI has now received confirmation of the initial finding from the analysis of the B sample.

Next steps

Now that the B samples have confirmed all the initial findings, the process will follow the Accelerated Medication Control Procedure during & after the 2008 Olympic Games which is part of the FEI Regulations for Equestrian events at the 2008 Olympic Games (Annex G), available on FEI Olympic website.

Evidence and written submissions have been requested from each rider, and a three-member panel of the FEI Tribunal has been appointed. Hearings will be held on 5, 6 and 7 September in Lausanne, however it is up to the Person Responsible whether or not they wish to exercise or waive their right to be heard. The panel will then, in light of all the evidence received, take a decision as to the applicable sanction if any.

kt
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:22 PM
Holy crap.

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:23 PM
UH-OH

dressurpferd01
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:24 PM
Holy freaking hell, of all the people...

TheHunterKid90
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:25 PM
How wonderful. ughhh

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:27 PM
I had heard warnings that the testing for these olympics was to be extremely sensitive. If they picked up an ingredient in Equi-block, lord knows what else they would pick up and for how long. :(

I guess my "Big Brown theory" about Brentina must have been incorrect. :o

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:30 PM
Looks like these riders need to go all natural and use nothing but cold water, massage, acupuncture etc...:no:

grayarabpony
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:30 PM
They need to come up with some sort of standards for testing. It's picking up EVERYTHING. Even the Olympic committee didn't believe Germany was cheating in the last Olympics, but took away team gold because them's the rules.

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:34 PM
They need to come up with some sort of standards for testing. It's picking up EVERYTHING. Even the Olympic committee didn't believe Germany was cheating in the last Olympics, but took about team gold because them's the rules.

amen..

LexInVA
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:35 PM
Oh frak. This was her Olympic debut. :cry: I don't like this at all. Not one damn bit. She earned her way to the Olympics and now it's taken from her. I bet it's those shitty French labs again. They should all be shut down. They have some of the worst testing records on the planet yet all the global sports organizations use them.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:36 PM
But that's why they developed the post-arrival elective testing process

http://www.fei.org/Events/Olympic_Games/Documents/Elective%20Testing%20in%20Hong%20Kong%20-%20Important%20Conditions%20and%20Requirements.pdf

I understand that the elective tests did not show capcaisin and that's why the Irish olympian was surprised. But the elective tests did test for felbinac; I wonder why she didn't elect to test?

dressurpferd01
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:37 PM
Oh frak. This was her Olympic debut. :cry: I don't like this at all. Not one damn bit. She earned her way to the Olympics and now it's taken from her.

And deservedly so if her horse tested. These people are WELL aware of what's allowed and what's not. ANYTHING that will affect the horse in any way is prohibited, end of discussion. I'm not trying to diss Courtney, she's a wonderful rider and I love Mythilus, but this was a dumb move on somebody's part.

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:46 PM
And deservedly so if her horse tested. These people are WELL aware of what's allowed and what's not. ANYTHING that will affect the horse in any way is prohibited, end of discussion. I'm not trying to diss Courtney, she's a wonderful rider and I love Mythilus, but this was a dumb move on somebody's part.

I wholeheartly agree but who is SOMEBODY.

gottagrey
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:49 PM
The really sad thing about all this testing is that those who cheat will find another way to do so, those who were looking out for the best interst of their horse and the sport will get penalized. Yes, riders, trainer and vets need to be on the lookout for what's being fed and put on a horse - but because of the 0 Tolerance even a trace amount will yeild a positive test. Unfortunately for many of the well-meaning, well-intentioned riders when the news breaks about a postive test it hits the media with much more sensationalism - DOPING - and making it seem as though the horses are high on METH or something, which often is not the case. Often it is indeed trace amounts. With the list of banned substances -you have to read what's in the shampoos, linaments (SORE NO MORE contains banned substances). For crying out loud unbeknowst to me I could have had many a positive test at that level as he has a fondness for human snack food - which I often gladly share w/ him - like DORITOS - which contain Chili Pepper which I think is what Capsaicin is. Now thanks to these threads I will no longer share my snacks w/ him - or let anyone else. Something which seems so benign as Doritos could in fact turn one into a cheat or scoundrel.

vineyridge
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:54 PM
The Hong Kong lab is the best equine testing facility in the world. :(

ButterflyIris
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:55 PM
Are they finding these banned substances through hair/skin sample tests, blood tests, urine or all three?
I just wonder how these samples were taken.
sorry about the news

Mozart
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:56 PM
The Hong Kong lab is the best equine testing facility in the world. :(

Perhaps a little too good? Considering 1.2 billion was spent getting that venue reading for Olympics and I was hoping more competitons woudl be hosted there. I suspect lots would be gun shy now!

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:57 PM
I wholeheartly agree but who is SOMEBODY.

Somebody could be - groom, coach, competitor, judge, rider..............

marta
Aug. 27, 2008, 02:10 PM
to pick up residues left over on leg wraps, shipping boots, etc?
so if she used wraps that have in the past been used over a banned topical substance, or shipping boots (although not sure when they would have the shipping boots while in hong kong). anyway, you catch my drift, right?

Foxtrot's
Aug. 27, 2008, 02:10 PM
It's complicated. But some of these amounts are so miniscule they couldn't do anything either way - relieve the horse, or enhance his performance. Residues can last longer than stated. The welfare of the horse, of course, means he cannot be worked if he is sore or on drugs, but zero tolerance with these sophisticated tests is so
disheartening for any competitor. It must be the worst news a competitor can have.

grayarabs
Aug. 27, 2008, 02:50 PM
What a mess. The substance Felbinac - I have never heard of it - is it in a product that is regularly used - or what? I hope CKD is allowed to say something - like she used a product a month ago or so - that contained F - or something!!! I feel so badly for her and the owners of the horse. How much of the substance was found? A trace?
If the HK lab is that "wonderful" then they should use it to age-test their own gymnasts.

cyberbay
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:02 PM
Loved your suggestion, grayarabs, about age-testing. Isn't that truth!

The rules need to be re-directed so that trace amounts are recognized as that. If a trace amount in a short-acting drug doesn't affect the horse, then it should be allowed; if a trace amount for drugs known to have long-term effect, then it's not allowed. Zero tolerance has the wrong result of making criminals out of competitors who are doing the right thing -- moderate use of moderate drugs isn't awful and I sure would rather give my hard-competing horse a bute for his overnight rest and comfort than not. The FEI, or the groups that pressure the FEI, have gone too far.

And, with testing being overzealous, it will be nearly impossible to keep top-level horses comfortable. I mean, are human athletes allowed to take aspririn while competing?

MHM
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:06 PM
Here's my question:

How is it fair that this person got to compete all the way through the Games with no announcement, when the show jumpers got bounced before their final?

What if the show jumper B samples come back negative?

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:06 PM
to pick up residues left over on leg wraps, shipping boots, etc?
so if she used wraps that have in the past been used over a banned topical substance, or shipping boots (although not sure when they would have the shipping boots while in hong kong). anyway, you catch my drift, right?

Yes, theoretically. In addition, horse A can pick up residue of meds given to Horse B by being placed in horse B's stall (at least the FEI materials warn about that possibility). And don't forget, many meds can be given provided that the competitors stop using the product far enough in advance of the competition. The FEI provides general guidelines as to withdrawal periods, but these vary from horse to horse. So, a cream used 30 days before a competition might show up in certain horses as a positive result.

JER
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:06 PM
I think felbinac is in Surpass topical cream (http://www.smartpakequine.com/productClass.aspx?productClassId=2716). (Felbinac would be in the diclofenac family of NSAIDS, but someone here probably knows more about this than me.)

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:10 PM
Yes, theoretically. In addition, horse A can pick up residue of meds given to Horse B by being placed in horse B's stall (at least the FEI materials warn about that possibility). And don't forget, many meds can be given provided that the competitors stop using the product far enough in advance of the competition. The FEI provides general guidelines as to withdrawal periods, but these vary from horse to horse. So, a cream used 30 days before a competition might show up in certain horses as a positive result.

But the most important question YL to me, Did Mythilus take part in the Drug test on arrival ?

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:11 PM
Here's my question:

How is it fair that this person got to compete all the way through the Games with no announcement, when the show jumpers got bounced before their final?

What if the show jumper B samples come back negative?

It's not fair. It is as arbitrary as the rest of the FEI rules. CKD was just "lucky" the dressage competition was already finished when the A sample results became available.

What is amazing, though, is that the FEi issued a statement that none of the eventers or dressage horses tested positive, which apparently was not only untrue, but made the SJ competitors look bad, as if there is some cheating problem unique to showjumpers. Now the FEI says that it did not want to issue a public statement as to CKD until the B sample came back, but they didn't just keep quiet about that, they affirmatively stated no dressage horses or eventers tested positive.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:12 PM
But the most important question YL to me, Did Mythilus take part in the Drug test on arrival ?

I don't know if he did. If not, I would be curious as to why not. She is my favorite rider; I really hate to see this happen.

Iride
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:16 PM
My first reaction to this is that this is getting ridiculous. But anyway, if it was Surpass that was used, even the teeniest-tiniest amount would test, because it is a transdermal. :eek: :(

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:25 PM
I don't know if he did. If not, I would be curious as to why not. She is my favorite rider; I really hate to see this happen.

It's no secret that I screamed it from the rooftops that the USA would be stupid not to take CK and Mythilus to Hongkong. And I don't believe and will never believe that Courtney has anything to do with this. I don't believe in mistakes either, but I hope the "somebody" responsible for this will come forward and pay.

Even more because (like in other cases) Courtney can be forced to pay all the costs of travelling to HongKong etc..etc...

Theo

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:28 PM
It's no secret that I screamed it from the rooftops that the USA would be stupid not to take CK and Mythilus to Hongkong. And I don't believe and will never believe that Courtney has anything to do with this. I don't believe in mistakes either, but I hope the "somebody" responsible for this will come forward and pay.

Even more because (like in other cases) Courtney can be forced to pay all the costs of travelling to HongKong etc..etc...

Theo

Since you are the all knowing look into your crystal ball and tell us who did it...

egontoast
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:37 PM
I'm not saying there isn't a problem with the testing (don't know) but would you all be up in arms if it were Satchmo or Salinero who tested positive.

Come on, now, try to be honest. Pretend the FEI release is about Salinero and then let's hear what you have to say about it.

There weren't a lot of people here standing up for Ulla as I recall.

passagedreamer
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:39 PM
freestyle2music: Their is only 1 person responsible for their horse at any CDI or FEI recgonized show !! And that is the rider ... plain and simple.... and CKD is an experienced horse woman and SHOULD have known better. And come on... it was the OLYMPICS !!!!!!! Please............ No excuses....whether she is a beautiful rider or not.... she should be totally embarrassed and SHOULD pay her own way to Hong Kong ( WITHOUT ) the help from her Sponsors !!!

And if it was Surpass ... please... that has not been legal for months !!!

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:40 PM
There weren't a lot of people here standing up for Ulla as I recall.

Testosterone is quite a bit different than capsaicin or a topical NSAID in my opinion.

Seal Harbor
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:43 PM
Here's my question:

How is it fair that this person got to compete all the way through the Games with no announcement, when the show jumpers got bounced before their final?

What if the show jumper B samples come back negative?

They all came back positive.

poltroon
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:50 PM
I'm not saying there isn't a problem with the testing (don't know) but would you all be up in arms if it were Satchmo or Salinero who tested positive.

Come on, now, try to be honest. Pretend the FEI release is about Salinero and then let's hear what you have to say about it.

There weren't a lot of people here standing up for Ulla as I recall.

Well, you saw what I had to say about the show jumpers. I think they've gone all out of control and I think they picked a stupid time to ratchet up the sensitivity. I don't think they're catching people who are harming horses or taking unfair advantage.

Do they have any data for each of these substances to know what dose at what timeframe produces what result? For god's sake, if we're talking about shampoos creating positive tests, then I'm thinking that one take-out order of szechwan food for the grooms could've made every horse in the place positive for capsaicin.

Zero tolerance makes sense for reserpine, or cocaine, or other serious and detrimental substances. It does not make sense for the rest.

Remember, these rules are supposed to be about PROTECTING THE HORSE. It's to protect the horse, not a purity test.

Well, I guess I'm glad that Brentina had her bad day after all.

Am I paranoid to be thinking that there still may be a shoe to drop for the Individual jumping?

magnolia73
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:50 PM
I think it is very strange that some of these things are banned- especially the capsacian. I wish there was a way to allow for some of the drugs that are therapeutic, but not masking. Drugs that make it comfortable for a horse to be shipped around the world, competed for several days at the top of its game. Yes, even a bit of bute. They are athletes, not robots. Yes- chiro and massage can help, plus ice. But they can only do so much. I pop an aleve after a hard run- makes it easier to get up the next day. If I'm hurting and don't need to move- I know it. I don't see why we do not give horses the same comfort.

FWIW, I doubt any of the people caught had anything but the best interests of their horses in mind. To me, doping is a horse getting steroids to build muscle or a huge dose of bute to cover a soundness issue or some Ace to keep it quiet. Rubbing a potent cream on a joint or treating a skin issue with some steroids is hardly creating some huge advantage, its just basic horse care.

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:51 PM
"The competition results will be amended as indicated in the Tribunal’s final decision."

So where will this leave the team in the team competition?:confused:

BLBGP
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:55 PM
Anyone else waiting for Ridgeback to apologize for saying that only show jumpers bend the rules?

It's a bummer.

Kenike
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:56 PM
Not at all what I was expecting! How sad!

But then Surpass has been at issue before. Yes, we all know it is not legal, but it seems to be popping positive results well after the time it's supposed to be out of the system. I think it's a nice product, but it seems to cause problems, too.

I guess it's just a wait & see thing as to whether we'll hear what CKD has to say (if anything....I'd be wanting to crawl in a hole & die of embarrassment right about now if I were her).

Mardi
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:57 PM
Now the FEI says that it did not want to issue a public statement as to CKD until the B sample came back, but they didn't just keep quiet about that, they affirmatively stated no dressage horses or eventers tested positive.

The FEI left out a word, that's all. They left out YET.

The FEI meant to say "No dressage horses tested positive for drugs.....yet". :)

grayarabpony
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:59 PM
I'm not saying there isn't a problem with the testing (don't know) but would you all be up in arms if it were Satchmo or Salinero who tested positive.

Come on, now, try to be honest. Pretend the FEI release is about Salinero and then let's hear what you have to say about it.

There weren't a lot of people here standing up for Ulla as I recall.

Actually if Satchmo or Salinero tested positive, I'd say that the substances weren't doing that much good, considering how Satchmo blew up twice, so spectacularly that many have wondered if he was in pain (and still received 78% for the kur, too high of a score for that test), and that Salinero was uneven in one of those tests (in the GP Special?).

raff
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:01 PM
Testosterone is quite a bit different than capsaicin or a topical NSAID in my opinion.

Yes....testosterone is a natural hormone that is helpful to build muscle and aid tissue repair especially in geldings who cant make as much,and topical anti inflammatories are used to treat injury.
using anti inflammatories seems worse to me.
However,both are equally illegal in FEI competition no matter what your nationality.

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:02 PM
Anyone else waiting for Ridgeback to apologize for saying that only show jumpers bend the rules?

It's a bummer.

Ridgeback and apologize is the same as asking Salinero to Halt :D

J-Lu
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:05 PM
I'm sure this will be unpopular, but...

If you are putting in the time and money and energy to go to the Olympics, you better damn well know the rules. The coach, the rider, the grooms, the owners, etc. all need to know. Yes, individual horses may take longer to clear a substance, but my feeling is that if you don't know *exactly* what is in the creams, ointments, rubs, treats, etc., then you are too far removed from the care of the horse you are competing on. There is a zero-tolerance policy for the Olympics - you just have to take it very seriously if you want to compete there.

The Hong Kong labs are world class, and the B samples are processed by a completely different lab. They did their jobs and detected the substances on their list of drugs to test for. I'm amazed at the negative comments towards the labs here because they did their jobs.

Over 150 over-the-counter "nutritional" supplements can bounce a human athlete out of the Olympics and China did a mass campaign to warn their citizens that herbal remedies can also make them test positive. Avoiding substances that test positive is a challenge for humans and horses alike.

It is a shame for Courtney King because she's just the highest profile member of the horse's team. The grooms, the coach, the owners, and pretty much anyone else who had contact with the horse that could have exposed it to an illegal substance share in the responsibility. She certainly wouldn't be the first high-profile rider to have discovered that someone accidentally used the wrong cream on the horse and it tested positive and she unfortunately won't be the last. But this is where a concerted effort needs to be made to *everyone* involved with the horse to ensure that banned substances simply aren't used close enough to test time that they might enhance their performance.

Mardi
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:05 PM
When one of these top level competitors sue the product manufacturer for liabliity or false advertising if the label reads "Will Not Test" and it actually did ?

For example, the Irish show jumper, who regulary used Equi-Bloc, because the label claimed it wouldn't test.

I have a feeling that we're not far from the day when the lawsuits are filed.

NMK
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:15 PM
Surpass's active ingredient is Diclofenac. Felbinac is a different drug, although of the same NSAID family. Even I know that Surpass would be illegal with the FEI rules. It has the same limitation with the USEF that NSAIDs share.

I do not know which equine (topical or otherwise) medication contains Felbinac. Someone has some 'splaining to do.

Nancy

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:15 PM
I'm not saying there isn't a problem with the testing (don't know) but would you all be up in arms if it were Satchmo or Salinero who tested positive.

Come on, now, try to be honest. Pretend the FEI release is about Salinero and then let's hear what you have to say about it.

There weren't a lot of people here standing up for Ulla as I recall.

If the circumstances were defensible, I would defend Satchmo or Salinero. I have defended the showjumpers. I don't care *who* it is; I look at the rules and the conduct in question.

Equibrit
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:17 PM
Oh frak. This was her Olympic debut. :cry: I don't like this at all. Not one damn bit. She earned her way to the Olympics and now it's taken from her. I bet it's those shitty French labs again. They should all be shut down. They have some of the worst testing records on the planet yet all the global sports organizations use them.


This is a joke right? "Taken from her" Who are you kidding?

SGray
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:20 PM
it seems at the level of sensitivity of the testing now the grooms cannot use BenGay (as an example)

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:22 PM
I'm sure this will be unpopular, but...

If you are putting in the time and money and energy to go to the Olympics, you better damn well know the rules. The coach, the rider, the grooms, the owners, etc. all need to know. Yes, individual horses may take longer to clear a substance, but my feeling is that if you don't know *exactly* what is in the creams, ointments, rubs, treats, etc., then you are too far removed from the care of the horse you are competing on. There is a zero-tolerance policy for the Olympics - you just have to take it very seriously if you want to compete there.

Unfortunately, the way the rules are written, they can be construed to ban hay, feed, and water. I am not familiar with the substance found in Mythilus, but pointed out in detail shortcomings of the FEI rules in the capsaicin threads. It does no one any good to say "zero tolerance too bad" when the rules are unclear.




But this is where a concerted effort needs to be made to *everyone* involved with the horse to ensure that banned substances simply aren't used close enough to test time that they might enhance their performance.

The standard is not whether the substance might enhance performance. The presence of any prohibited substance, even if the FEI knows WITHOUT A DOUBT the amount is too little to enhance performance, is a violation of the rules. They took Ludger Beerbaum's Gold medal ecen though they knew the amount of cream he used was not a performance enhancer. As for withdrawal periods; there are recommended amounts of time, and people usually add a safety margin. That is not foolproof, though. I have no idea whether CKD observed the appropriate withdrawal times or not.

BahamaMama
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:23 PM
Could it be that Courtney used the leg wraps of Brentina;)

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:24 PM
Ridgeback and apologize is the same as asking Salinero to Halt :D

Theo, I can't believe you would be so insulting to Salinero : ).

slc2
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:25 PM
The reaction here WOULD be different if it concerned Salinero or Satchmo. Don't kid yourselves.

The fact remains - the horse had a banned substance in him.

SGray
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:29 PM
[Felbinac gel for treatment of localized extra-articular rheumatic diseases--a multicenter, placebo controlled, randomized study]
[Article in German]
Bolten W (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Bolten%20W%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Rheumaklinik Bad Rappenau.
281 patients with extra-articular rheumatic disorders (enthesiopathy, bursitis, tendinosis, fibrositis) and moderate or severe localized pain during rest or movement in shoulder, neck, elbow or knee were randomized into groups and treated for 14 days in a double blind study with either 1 g Felbinac Gel 3% (biphenyl acetic acid) three times daily (N = 142) or with the gel formulation only (N = 139). In 50% of the patients treated with Felbinac Gel compared to 29% of the placebo treated patients (p = 0.001), the investigator assessed the global therapeutic success to be good or very good. The magnitude of complaints judged on the basis of a visual analogous scale by patients and doctor showed a significant improvement in pain reduction during rest or activity after 14 days of treatment in the Felbinac group. The rheumatic complaints diminished equally according to patient judgement in both treatment groups and the concomitant use of paracetamol was low in both groups. No significant side-effects or changes in laboratory parameters were observed during therapy. Felbinac Gel therefore is suitable for a low-risk topical therapy of soft tissue rheumatic disorders.
PMID: 1872042 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:30 PM
Surpass has been at issue before. Yes, we all know it is not legal, but it seems to be popping positive results well after the time it's supposed to be out of the system. I think it's a nice product, but it seems to cause problems, too.



I thought someone said it was not Surpass, but some other product. He tested positive for Felbinac -- that is not the active ingredient in Surpass.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:32 PM
The reaction here WOULD be different if it concerned Salinero or Satchmo. Don't kid yourselves.

The fact remains - the horse had a banned substance in him.

I have no doubt I would be one of very few defending Satchmo or Salinero.

scottishgirl
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:33 PM
from 2003

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/article.php?aid=47198&cid=390

Abbervail Dream was found to have the prohibited substances valerenic acid (valerian) and felbinac acid in his system, but Britain's top female rider and trainer insists she has no idea how they got there.

Di has subsequently traced the valerenic acid to a supplement she was feeding, which she had been wrongly assured by the manufacturers did not contain the prohibited substance. She is still unable to trace the source of the felbinac acid, which is found in a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory gel that is not used on her yard.

and http://www.efanational.com/site/equestrian/national/downloads/content/attachments/news/judicial/50608_FEI_Decision_Mr_Innocent_Tim%20Amitrano.pdf

Iride
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:39 PM
Maybe we're just ignorants at our farm (possible), but I just asked 3 different people and no one has heard of this substance. Is there a brand name that it's commonly known as, or a familiar product name that contains it?

Mozart
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:41 PM
Felbinac is in the list of substances that FEI test for in voluntary post-arrival testing. I think it must be assumed she did not participate in that. Why would one not want to take advantage of that? Especially if your horse had been given a topically applied NSAID in the past.

ceffyl
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:42 PM
Maybe we're just ignorants at our farm (possible), but I just asked 3 different people and no one has heard of this substance. Is there a brand name that it's commonly known as, or a familiar product name that contains it?

Traxam Gel

MelantheLLC
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:43 PM
Ridgeback and apologize is the same as asking Salinero to Halt :D

Touche! :winkgrin:

NMK
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:47 PM
Is a human prescribed pharmaceutical. Is there an equine version of it?

Equibrit
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:54 PM
How does it work?

Felbinac belongs to a group of medicines called non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs).

It works by blocking the production of a chemical (prostaglandin) which the body produces in response to injury or certain diseases. This prostaglandin would otherwise go on to cause swelling, pain and inflammation.

All the medicines in this group reduce inflammation caused by the body's own immune system and are effective pain killers.

Felbinac is applied to the skin surface (topically) for the relief of local pain and inflammation. It is used in many muscular and joint conditions such as in sprains, strains, rheumatism, and mild arthritic conditions.

The gel form of this medicine may be used in ultrasound as a coupling agent.

Iride
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:58 PM
I wonder if it's easily passable from human (who might have used it on themselves) to horse. Seems so unlikely, but who knows?

I didn't know it was in ultrasound gel. Is it possible they regularly use an ultrasound therapy machine on the horse after hard workouts? And didn't think that something like this might be in the gel? Hmm.

NMK
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:59 PM
Equibrit,

Is there an equine version of it?

Equibrit
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:59 PM
I think it has been detected more in race horses - for soft tissue injuries.

JER
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:00 PM
How does it work?

Felbinac belongs to a group of medicines called non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs).

It works by blocking the production of a chemical (prostaglandin) which the body produces in response to injury or certain diseases. This prostaglandin would otherwise go on to cause swelling, pain and inflammation.

All the medicines in this group reduce inflammation caused by the body's own immune system and are effective pain killers.

Felbinac is applied to the skin surface (topically) for the relief of local pain and inflammation. It is used in many muscular and joint conditions such as in sprains, strains, rheumatism, and mild arthritic conditions.

The gel form of this medicine may be used in ultrasound as a coupling agent.

Equibrit, please cite your source as this is not your original language but is taken from elsewhere. I assume this is inadvertent on your part.

mjhco
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:06 PM
Is a human prescribed pharmaceutical. Is there an equine version of it?

After reading the description of it I wondered that if a person used it then 'laid hands' on a horse if the substance would transfer.

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:12 PM
Anyone else waiting for Ridgeback to apologize for saying that only show jumpers bend the rules?

It's a bummer.


Hey BLBGP don't hold your breath and learn to read:lol: Here is what I said,
'That is why you saw quite a few lame/uneven horses in dressage they tend not to break the rules like the show jumpers but many could have used a little help."

Do you understand what that means:lol::lol::lol: Show me where I used the word ONLY...I wish people would read....SIGH hee hee

poltroon
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:13 PM
The gel form of this medicine may be used in ultrasound as a coupling agent.

Interesting. You'd think they'd think of this, but I might have missed it, since I would have expected the gel itself to be inert.

Then again, I think of shampoo as inert.

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:20 PM
Ridgeback and apologize is the same as asking Salinero to Halt :D

HEE HEE funny freestyle when you PM'd me recently I asked you no less then twice what I had done to piss you off and you never responded...I'm thinking you are one of those highly "senstitive" men, get his feelings hurt and acts like a two year old..:eek:

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:24 PM
Touche! :winkgrin:

Please show me what I need to apologize for and if you would actually reseach before opening your mouth you'd see I have apologized several times on this board...:cool::lol: I don't apologize when people read into things that are not there...No reason for me to apologize for THEIR ignorance...

MelantheLLC
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:26 PM
Please show me what I need to apologize for and if you would actually reseach before opening your mouth you'd see I have apologized several times on this board...:cool::lol:

Aww, RB, I just thought it was a cute comeback about Salinero; don't zap me, my chuckle wasn't personal to you cause I don't even know what you said. Coulda been anybody and I would have said "Touche."

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:29 PM
Aww, RB, I just thought it was a cute comeback about Salinero; don't zap me, my chuckle wasn't personal to you cause I don't even know what you said. Coulda been anybody and I would have said "Touche."

Ok then I sincerely apologize...;) see I can do it

ShotenStar
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:30 PM
Some reading for you:

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11454

If drugs can transfer from bedding and show up on a test, then it seems likely they can transfer from boots/wraps, grooming tools, etc. So contamination may have happened during a perfectly appropriate use of the drug in the past and is now showing up in the super-sensitivity FEI testing.

*star*

MelantheLLC
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:30 PM
Ok then I sincerely apologize...;) see I can do it

9.8 for the apology! (We never give 10's doncha see.)

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:33 PM
9.8 for the apology! (We never give 10's doncha see.)

Thank you for the 9.8:)

Schiffon
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:39 PM
I'm sure this will be unpopular, but...

If you are putting in the time and money and energy to go to the Olympics, you better damn well know the rules. The coach, the rider, the grooms, the owners, etc. all need to know. Yes, individual horses may take longer to clear a substance, but my feeling is that if you don't know *exactly* what is in the creams, ointments, rubs, treats, etc., then you are too far removed from the care of the horse you are competing on. There is a zero-tolerance policy for the Olympics - you just have to take it very seriously if you want to compete there.

The Hong Kong labs are world class, and the B samples are processed by a completely different lab. They did their jobs and detected the substances on their list of drugs to test for. I'm amazed at the negative comments towards the labs here because they did their jobs.

Over 150 over-the-counter "nutritional" supplements can bounce a human athlete out of the Olympics and China did a mass campaign to warn their citizens that herbal remedies can also make them test positive. Avoiding substances that test positive is a challenge for humans and horses alike.

It is a shame for Courtney King because she's just the highest profile member of the horse's team. The grooms, the coach, the owners, and pretty much anyone else who had contact with the horse that could have exposed it to an illegal substance share in the responsibility. She certainly wouldn't be the first high-profile rider to have discovered that someone accidentally used the wrong cream on the horse and it tested positive and she unfortunately won't be the last. But this is where a concerted effort needs to be made to *everyone* involved with the horse to ensure that banned substances simply aren't used close enough to test time that they might enhance their performance.

J-Lu, you aren't unpopular with me, your statement is totally logical. Thanks for posting.

I agree with SLC that if this was a previously "tarnished" rider in the eyes of the BB members, the weight of posts in support of the rider vs those critical of the rider would be very different.

According to the FDA website felbinac is not approved in the US, but Courtney could have easily acquired it while in Europe (there is apparently a human and a veterinary product). As could have anyone else in contact with the horse, intentionally or unintentionally applying it, whether it was at a time that was assumed to be a long enough withdrawal or whether it was applied at a time when it was meant to illegally benefit the horse during the Olympics. There are so many possible scenarios and hopefully due process will make one clear. Its crazy for anyone to jump to conclusions at this point.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:40 PM
Here is a link to an FEI opinion rendered in a 2004 case involving Felbinac (which apparently is a metabolite of Fenbufen):


http://www.efanational.com/site/equestrian/national/downloads/content/attachments/news/judicial/50608_FEI_Decision_Mr_Innocent_Tim%20Amitrano.pdf

poltroon
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:47 PM
Here is a link to an FEI opinion rendered in a 2004 case involving Felbinac (which apparently is a metabolite of Fenbufen):


http://www.efanational.com/site/equestrian/national/downloads/content/attachments/news/judicial/50608_FEI_Decision_Mr_Innocent_Tim%20Amitrano.pdf

Two things jumped out at me.

First, I laughed myself silly because the horse's name was Mr. Innocent.

Second, he noted that a massuse/physio person had treated the horse. Is it possible that that person also used theraputic ultrasound, and thus gel containing Felbinac, on an earlier client that day? What if the residue was still on the massuse's hands? Are the tests that sensitive?

MelantheLLC
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:50 PM
There's a clear conversation on the rewind video btw Courtney and the vet rep asking to take Mythilus for a blood test after her ride (I forget which one, freestyle I think). She sure doesn't appear concerned or very focused about it, just says, "Sure, no problem" and signs the paper as he's led away.

Maybe that's meaningless but it's just an observation.

SGray
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:50 PM
Here is a link to an FEI opinion rendered in a 2004 case involving Felbinac (which apparently is a metabolite of Fenbufen):


http://www.efanational.com/site/equestrian/national/downloads/content/attachments/news/judicial/50608_FEI_Decision_Mr_Innocent_Tim%20Amitrano.pdf

excerpt

"In addition the PR is fined CHF 1,000.and is liable to pay 750.for the confirmatory analysis. The PR would also contribute CHF 250.towards
the costs of administering of this case, which is a reduced amount taking into consideration the time lag between event and decision."

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:53 PM
Interesting article on capsaicin and felbinac:

http://www.johnshopkinshealthalerts.com/reports/arthritis/128-1.html

Equibrit
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:08 PM
None of the names for that drug appear to be approved by the FDA;http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/Scripts/cder/DrugsatFDA/index.cfm?fuseaction=Search.SearchResults_Browse&DrugInitial=F

SO - not available in the United States.
The gel form of this medicine may be used in ultrasound as a coupling agent.

BLBGP
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:08 PM
OK, so you didn't say only. But you definitely implied that show jumpers were decidedly more underhanded and unethical than dressage riders. For example:


Several lame dressage horses no dressage horses busted for dobing, showjumpers often busted for doping and many dressage horses could have used a little help since they were LAME

I'm not saying Courtney is evil by any means. But you were so frustratingly vocal about your less than positive feelings towards show jumpers on other threads.....I know you won't change or quiet down, I was just hoping.

STF
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:20 PM
I am sick to hear this. Ive turned into a HUGE CKD fan and I am so sad for her to deal with this. Im sorry this happened.

But you know what, screw it. She did awesome, her ride was soft, correct and beautiful to watch and in my eyes, she is 10x the horse woman most are.

Live and learn, move on.........

dogchushu
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:27 PM
Well, you saw what I had to say about the show jumpers. I think they've gone all out of control and I think they picked a stupid time to ratchet up the sensitivity. I don't think they're catching people who are harming horses or taking unfair advantage.

Do they have any data for each of these substances to know what dose at what timeframe produces what result? For god's sake, if we're talking about shampoos creating positive tests, then I'm thinking that one take-out order of szechwan food for the grooms could've made every horse in the place positive for capsaicin.

Zero tolerance makes sense for reserpine, or cocaine, or other serious and detrimental substances. It does not make sense for the rest.

Remember, these rules are supposed to be about PROTECTING THE HORSE. It's to protect the horse, not a purity test.

Well, I guess I'm glad that Brentina had her bad day after all.

Am I paranoid to be thinking that there still may be a shoe to drop for the Individual jumping?

I totally agree with this. All of it.

I know competitors are ultimately responsible for keeping their horses clean, but nabbing people for trace amounts of therapeutic substances seems to cause more problems than it's helping.

And I really do wish they'd release the amounts that were found, so at least we'd have a clue as to who's truly trying to cheat and who may have ordered the wrong carry out for the grooms the night before!

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:28 PM
OK, so you didn't say only. But you definitely implied that show jumpers were decidedly more underhanded and unethical than dressage riders. For example:



I'm not saying Courtney is evil by any means. But you were so frustratingly vocal about your less than positive feelings towards show jumpers on other threads.....I know you won't change or quiet down, I was just hoping.

Again, please show me where I have been overly vocal about my less then positive feelings toward show jumping. I posted very little in that thread that blew up to 18 pages(and for the life of me, I don't understand that). Just FYI I rode jumpers not dressage and just to be clear I was pointing out that showjumpers do get themselves in more trouble than the dressage people. Were there any dressage people arrested and sent to prison for killing horses in the 90's or were those ALL hunter/jumper people. I do get frustratingly vocal when people put words into my mouth. It does drive me crazy when people put their own spin on things instead of staying with the facts of what is written. So I do apologize for that but if people continue to misquote me, I will continue to set the record straight.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:33 PM
Again, please show me where I have been overly vocal about my less then positive feelings toward show jumping. I posted very little in that thread that blew up to 18 pages(and for the life of me, I don't understand that). Just FYI I rode jumpers not dressage and just to be clear I was pointing out that showjumpers do get themselves in more trouble than the dressage people. Were there any dressage people arrested and sent to prison for killing horses in the 90's or were those ALL hunter/jumper people. I do get frustratingly vocal when people put words into my mouth. It does drive me crazy when people put their own spin on things instead of staying with the facts of what is written. So I do apologize for that but if people continue to misquote me, I will continue to set the record straight.

Please, take it to PMs if you insist on bickering about issues not relevant to the topic.

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:36 PM
Please, take it to PMs if you insist on bickering about issues not relevant to the topic.

I know being a lawyer you like to tell people what to do but please stop especially when you JUST chimed in about me a page or so back...Stop with the hypocrisy Yankeelawyer. Oh by the way I hope this thread doesn't blow up to 20+ pages.

Mardi
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:38 PM
Di has subsequently traced the valerenic acid to a supplement she was feeding, which she had been wrongly assured by the manufacturers did not contain the prohibited substance.


See you in court.

Mardi
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:42 PM
The gel form of this medicine may be used in ultrasound as a coupling agent.

Where did you find that tidbit ? just wondering...

magnolia73
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:49 PM
It seems like there should simply be better labeling on these products. FEI approved/ NON FEI approved. Perhaps a list of approved drugs for conditions needs to be prepared by the governing body. Drugs approved for treatment of colic, liniments, poultices, skin treatments. And if it is not on the list, you don't use it.

While, yes- total rider responsibility- what a onerous task for every vet, groom and other handler to be aware of all of the components on that list- that I imagine is frequently updated. I have no clue what is in my horses liniment, fly spray, supplements and fungus treatment.

It seems like if it will be zero tolerance, the at MINIMUM the FEI needs to at least give solutions to people. I think the Beerbaum incident was the most ridiculous. Have a list- skin conditions- you can use X Y or Z.

I really think many of these cases are incidents of people innocently nabbed. I don't think they are sneaking around using potions. The financial impact to these riders could be devastating. Not to mention the damage to reputation. Sure, take away a medal or a win. Prize money. But the fines and suspensions for these minor trace drugs are ridiculous. A career could be RUINED by a slip up by a vet or chiro. :no:

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:54 PM
Where did you find that tidbit ? just wondering...

Google it.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:57 PM
It seems like there should simply be better labeling on these products. FEI approved/ NON FEI approved.

Not possible, (1) because the FEI list of prohibited substances is not exclusive (it is worded, certain specific categories, "including but not limited to", so there is no way for anyone to say definitvely whether any product is allowed just by reading the rules (except for gastroguard, apparently); (2) manufacturers and suppliers would be nuts to expose themselves to liability by making such a warranty; and (3) the rules are not set in stone; they are amended frequently, and it is impractical and burdensome for a manufacturer or supplier to stay abreast of these and also have to change their labeling every time the FEI makes a rule change.



Perhaps a list of approved drugs for conditions needs to be prepared by the governing body. Drugs approved for treatment of colic, liniments, poultices, skin treatments. And if it is not on the list, you don't use it.

That has more possibilities. But presumably there are many more products that are okay versus not okay, so it would make more sense for the FEI to provide an approved substances list, and then say that if not on the list, use at your own risk.

slc2
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:59 PM
My impression is that most horse products are totally unregulated and it would be difficult for manufacturers to know what's in em, let alone us know.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:59 PM
Where did you find that tidbit ? just wondering...

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100002628.html

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 07:00 PM
My impression is that most horse products are totally unregulated and it would be difficult for manufacturers to know what's in em, let alone us know.

Correct.

ridgeback
Aug. 27, 2008, 07:00 PM
Not possible, (1) because the FEI list of prohibited substances is not exclusive (it is worded, certain specific categories, "including but not limited to", so there is no way for anyone to say definitvely whether any product is banned justby reading the rules (except for gastroguard, apparently); (2) manufacturers and suppliers would be nuts to expose themselves to liability by making such a warranty; and (3) the rules are not set in stone; they are amended frequently, and it is impractical and burdensome for a manufactirer or supplier to stay abreast of these and also have to change their labeling every time the FEI makes a rule change.



That has more possibilities. But presumably there are many more products that are okay versus not okay, so it would make more sense for the FEI to provide an approved substances list, and then say that if not on the list, use at your own risk.

How could they it would be impossible for them to keep up with every change the manufactuer makes.

Lendon Gray
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:07 PM
It always amazes me that people will post on these boards “facts” with they are completely unaware of the facts. Let me just tell you all that Mythilus had a serious heart condition on arrival in Hong Kong and had to be handled by vets other than the US vet. He had ultrasounds and 9 nose tubings. They were using medications that were not brought from the US, since the US vet never expected to have to treat his problem.

Let me also say that no one has ever seen Mythilus to be unsound since he was brought to the US.

However he did test positive and the FEI has the right to suspend Courtney even though she has no knowledge of how the drug came into contact with Myth. We will know more after the hearing. For those of you who have admired Courtney and believed in her, I hope you will continue to do so. She deserves it.

egontoast
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:22 PM
I don't think anyone here thinks anything nefarious went on or that CKD's reputation has been blackened over this.

Just remembering back to the Ulla/Rusty incident where no similar benefit of the doubt was given by the lynch mob.

Roberta
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:23 PM
It seems that our Federation is also standing behind Courtney:

http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/newsDisplay/viewPR.aspx?id=3541

STF
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:26 PM
For those of you who have admired Courtney and believed in her, I hope you will continue to do so. She deserves it.

She has a huge fan here in TX!

dutchfan
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:28 PM
"It seems that our Federation is also standing behind Courtney:"

Unfortunately it doesnt' seem like it matters... If the boogeyman or a chinaman (or chinese vet as the case may be) put the cream on the horse. It's a banned substance.The rider is always responsible per the rules and she will probably get suspended.

STF
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:28 PM
It seems that our Federation is also standing behind Courtney:

http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/newsDisplay/viewPR.aspx?id=3541


I am happy to hear this!! Good for them!
Sometimes being a winner has a lot more to do with placings and ribbons.

specialops
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:33 PM
When people can write relatively anonymously, what they will write is not surprising. My heart goes out to Ms. King-Dye because I have no doubt she was completely in the dark on what was used to regulate Mythilus's arterial fibrillation issue (per the press release...who knows how accurate this is). I personally would want whatever means necessary used to save my horse as I am sure she did. However, if blame is to be layed, it is to the Olympic/FEI committee and their un-planned for rules. What would make sense is the vet's providing a FULL/detailed list of drugs/pharmaceuticals used on the horse. If those items are on the banned list, the horse should be given a pass as long as it is fit to be ridden when the test comes around. At that point it should be clear that no inappropriate supplement has been provided previously as drawing blood prior to drug administration could be performed. This is the type of emergent situation that needs to be considered in the next Olympics.

Not knowing the details and not wishing to speculate, I would guess the list of what was used was not provided and I think it is an absolute travesty to our sport of Dressage and to this talented rider's reputation to have anything else speculated other than an error in forethought by the Olympic committee and FEI to not consider all possible medical scenarios when asking rider's to transport their precious cargo to countries where they will be required to use the available medical staff to assist in this level of life threatening emergency.

MelantheLLC
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:38 PM
When people can write relatively anonymously, what they will write is not surprising.

What exactly has been written here that was so horrible?

Seems to me it's just been a lot of discussion of exactly what you're talking about--how could this possibly have come about? I'm sure that's just what Ms King-Dye and the USEF are doing, trying to figure it out.

Bogey2
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:40 PM
What exactly has been written here that was so horrible?

you may have missed the post on the dressage board. specialops, good information and post.

petitefilly
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:06 PM
Traxam Gel


Is this by Rx only? It does not seem to be sold in the US as an OTC. Great Britain seems to be the only information center with a Google search.

canyonoak
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:12 PM
So when the FEI said the pre-event drug test they were offering was to "minimize inadvertent medication violations..." they were just kidding, as the 4 show jumpers have found out.

Because 4 show jumpers (that we know about) used a substance that says it does not test--and apparently DID NOT TEST over the year or so of qualifying competitions, drug tests etc, as nearly all those horses were tested several times at the largest CSIs and CSIOs.

But FEI, in its usual strange stupidity, decides NOT to use thermography (even though they announced they would use thermography 'at random tests' all throughout the competition.
No, they did not use thermography which would have told us definitively if indeed there was capsaicin or any thing else of interest on the horse's LEGS. (Because, frankly, if capsaicin is not on their legs, then the riders are not guilty of using it as a possible 'hyper-sensitizing agent')

Then, FEI releases a public statement that the event horses and the dressage horses had a wonderful and successful competition--meaning no positive drug tests.

But wait-- oops. That is not really correct...and now we have a U.S. dressage rider caught in their infernal and corrupt nightmare.

I am beginning to wonder if IOC has orchestrated all of this simply in order to move equestrian out of the Olympics...with collusion of at least a few idiots at FEI, crazy and conspiracy-paranoid as that sounds.

It is NOT POSSIBLE, in this day and age, to guarantee that a horse has not come into contact with all kinds of substances which leave metabolite trace in in their bodies.

Not substances, but their metabolites...which can cross-reference from two completely legal substances and produce a metabolite of something illegal, as for example, the metabolite of reserpine from certain horse foods.

And here , we probably have a case of the Hong Kong equine hospital facility inadvertently causing a trace of the metabolite of Felbinac to get into Mythilus' system via ultrasound.

I am now officially utterly distressed.

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:35 PM
Maybe this is why the head of the vet-department of the FEI quit before the Olympics started. It was no secret he didn't agree with the drug-testing procedures.

I have posted it somewhere here, but can't find it anymore.

Theo

J-Lu
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:38 PM
When people can write relatively anonymously, what they will write is not surprising. My heart goes out to Ms. King-Dye because I have no doubt she was completely in the dark on what was used to regulate Mythilus's arterial fibrillation issue (per the press release...who knows how accurate this is). I personally would want whatever means necessary used to save my horse as I am sure she did. However, if blame is to be layed, it is to the Olympic/FEI committee and their un-planned for rules. What would make sense is the vet's providing a FULL/detailed list of drugs/pharmaceuticals used on the horse. If those items are on the banned list, the horse should be given a pass as long as it is fit to be ridden when the test comes around. At that point it should be clear that no inappropriate supplement has been provided previously as drawing blood prior to drug administration could be performed. This is the type of emergent situation that needs to be considered in the next Olympics.

Not knowing the details and not wishing to speculate, I would guess the list of what was used was not provided and I think it is an absolute travesty to our sport of Dressage and to this talented rider's reputation to have anything else speculated other than an error in forethought by the Olympic committee and FEI to not consider all possible medical scenarios when asking rider's to transport their precious cargo to countries where they will be required to use the available medical staff to assist in this level of life threatening emergency.

With all due respect to you and ESPECIALLY to Lendon Grey, I am hard-pressed to find a post where someone said Courtney King did something intentionally to cover up a problem with her horse. Or that she shouldn't have treated her horse for atrial fibrillation. Or that the situation was definitely not the result of an accidental exposure.

Courtney is an admired and very high-profile rider. She rides on the American team. This puts her into "celebrity status" amongst horse people. It is true, Lendon, that people don't have the facts yet. But do you honestly expect that NO ONE will discuss this event online? That no one will speculate about what could have happened? Do you think people aren't waiting for the facts? Do you honestly think that Courtney's reputation will immediately become tarnished, and people won't want to back her anymore? I think you might have missed the 14 "we love Courtney" threads and zeroed right into this one. Courtney is admired and loved by many, but she's also a human being just like everyone posting here. She's not untouchable because she's famous.

So let people touch on her. If you actually read the posts, you'll find that more people are hugging her than poking at her.

AiryFairy
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:44 PM
I can only imagine what Courtney is going through right now, and I hope this works out in her favor. What amazes me is that with all that medical treatment, why wouldn't the assumption by the Team be that he would of course test positive for something (for pete's sake, even camphor is banned), and the team take the opportunity before competition to give a list of what had been used on him and give some kind of explanation ("hey, the horse has been ill, we don't know what he has been given or how long it lasts") instead of waiting for it to show up in a drug test as if she'd done something illegal??



It always amazes me that people will post on these boards “facts” with they are completely unaware of the facts. Let me just tell you all that Mythilus had a serious heart condition on arrival in Hong Kong and had to be handled by vets other than the US vet. He had ultrasounds and 9 nose tubings. They were using medications that were not brought from the US, since the US vet never expected to have to treat his problem.

Let me also say that no one has ever seen Mythilus to be unsound since he was brought to the US.

However he did test positive and the FEI has the right to suspend Courtney even though she has no knowledge of how the drug came into contact with Myth. We will know more after the hearing. For those of you who have admired Courtney and believed in her, I hope you will continue to do so. She deserves it.

MelantheLLC
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:56 PM
Strangely enough, in other venues such as politics, speculation on the internet has led to serious breakthroughs regarding the facts, because the facts are exposed to such a large worldwide audience, many of them highly expert in obscure fields, who have time, interest and such an immense and searchable database at their service.

For instance, this:


None of the names for that drug appear to be approved by the FDA;http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/Scripts/cder/DrugsatFDA/index.cfm?fuseaction=Search.SearchResults_Browse&DrugInitial=F

SO - not available in the United States.
The gel form of this medicine may be used in ultrasound as a coupling agent.

Both of these are simple facts that could be extremely important in the case. Does the FEI know them? Does the USEF? Does Courtney?

I wouldn't assume that they do. How likely is it that the horse was ultrasounded for this heart condition? Vets may or may not even know what's in a "coupling agent" themselves; this is a big deal to us but that doesn't mean every vet in Hong Kong is hot on the worldwide medical database hunting down the drug and how it could have gotten into Mythilus.

Maybe someone who has access to people in critical positions on this case should make sure this information is known to them; time better spent than worrying about whether proper respect and lack of speculation is being practiced here.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:57 PM
I have posted a good number of posts defending the riders and pointing out the many possible ways one could have a positive test result through no fault of one's own (as well as some shortcomings of the FEI regulations). A lot of people seem to prefer to assume the worst (though I agree that as to CKD, that has been much less the case). Maybe those who were thinking like that will now "get it."

Madeline
Aug. 27, 2008, 10:11 PM
For crying out loud unbeknowst to me I could have had many a positive test at that level as he has a fondness for human snack food - which I often gladly share w/ him - like DORITOS - which contain Chili Pepper which I think is what Capsaicin is. Now thanks to these threads I will no longer share my snacks w/ him - or let anyone else. Something which seems so benign as Doritos could in fact turn one into a cheat or scoundrel.

I don't think that the "Doritos High " becomes a problem until you hit International competition.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 10:18 PM
I don't think that the "Doritos High " becomes a problem until you hit International competition.

The USEF rules explicitly ban capsaicin. Ironically, the FEI rules do not explicitly ban it. It is only banned to the extent it can be deemed a "hypersensitizing agent" or a Class A pain reliever.

ShannonLee
Aug. 27, 2008, 10:25 PM
Is it OK to compete a horse that has had atrial fibrillation? In major heat and humidity? I don't know who is responsible for this positive test, someone is, but my question comes from the situation before that.

Maybe someone has more experience with this condition and can elaborate?

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 10:41 PM
Is it OK to compete a horse that has had atrial fibrillation? In major heat and humidity? I don't know who is responsible for this positive test, someone is, but my question comes from the situation before that.

Maybe someone has more experience with this condition and can elaborate?

I think it is fair to say, given the close supervision of the horse by a team of vets and his caring connections, that he only proceeded to compete after being deemed fit to do so. THe horse did beautifully in competition. There is no indication that he was under any kind of stress, and but for the information provided above, there was nothing indicating anything other than he was in great shape throughout his stay in Hong Kong (meaning that he appeared to be a fit and thriving horse).

BLBGP
Aug. 27, 2008, 10:41 PM
It always amazes me that people will post on these boards “facts” with they are completely unaware of the facts. Let me just tell you all that Mythilus had a serious heart condition on arrival in Hong Kong and had to be handled by vets other than the US vet. He had ultrasounds and 9 nose tubings. They were using medications that were not brought from the US, since the US vet never expected to have to treat his problem.


Wow. It is amazing he was able to compete after that.

lil'redbarn
Aug. 27, 2008, 10:43 PM
So when the FEI said the pre-event drug test they were offering was to "minimize inadvertent medication violations..." they were just kidding, as the 4 show jumpers have found out.

Because 4 show jumpers (that we know about) used a substance that says it does not test--and apparently DID NOT TEST over the year or so of qualifying competitions, drug tests etc, as nearly all those horses were tested several times at the largest CSIs and CSIOs.

But FEI, in its usual strange stupidity, decides NOT to use thermography (even though they announced they would use thermography 'at random tests' all throughout the competition.
No, they did not use thermography which would have told us definitively if indeed there was capsaicin or any thing else of interest on the horse's LEGS. (Because, frankly, if capsaicin is not on their legs, then the riders are not guilty of using it as a possible 'hyper-sensitizing agent')

Then, FEI releases a public statement that the event horses and the dressage horses had a wonderful and successful competition--meaning no positive drug tests.

But wait-- oops. That is not really correct...and now we have a U.S. dressage rider caught in their infernal and corrupt nightmare.

I am beginning to wonder if IOC has orchestrated all of this simply in order to move equestrian out of the Olympics...with collusion of at least a few idiots at FEI, crazy and conspiracy-paranoid as that sounds.

It is NOT POSSIBLE, in this day and age, to guarantee that a horse has not come into contact with all kinds of substances which leave metabolite trace in in their bodies.

Not substances, but their metabolites...which can cross-reference from two completely legal substances and produce a metabolite of something illegal, as for example, the metabolite of reserpine from certain horse foods.

And here , we probably have a case of the Hong Kong equine hospital facility inadvertently causing a trace of the metabolite of Felbinac to get into Mythilus' system via ultrasound.

I am now officially utterly distressed.

Excellent post, canyonoak.

AiryFairy
Aug. 27, 2008, 11:05 PM
I think it sounds like a nightmare in which you can't really control ANY contamination, if banned substances can come from groom's hands after they've eaten, or off a leg wrap that maybe has some essence of something left on it. I remember when Mike Huber was disqualified from an event due to a positive drug test, turns out the groom fed the horse a little piece of a chocolate bar as a treat, never knowing it was a banned substance, can't remember if it was caffeine that showed up or something else.


I have posted a good number of posts defending the riders and pointing out the many possible ways one could have a positive test result through no fault of one's own (as well as some shortcomings of the FEI regulations). A lot of people seem to prefer to assume the worst (though I agree that as to CKD, that has been much less the case). Maybe those who were thinking like that will now "get it."

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 11:33 PM
I think it sounds like a nightmare in which you can't really control ANY contamination, if banned substances can come from groom's hands after they've eaten, or off a leg wrap that maybe has some essence of something left on it. I remember when Mike Huber was disqualified from an event due to a positive drug test, turns out the groom fed the horse a little piece of a chocolate bar as a treat, never knowing it was a banned substance, can't remember if it was caffeine that showed up or something else.

I hope that these discussions will raise awareness about the rules, bring about positive change, and encourage (some) people to be less quick to jump to conclusions about others and to be more supportive of their fellow horsemen and horsewomen. It is the situations where I see that it could just as easily have been me that really give me pause.

vineyridge
Aug. 27, 2008, 11:43 PM
Couple of thoughts--

After the flap at the last Olympics, the FEI indicated that it was going to review the no tolerance rules and set thresholds for banned substances at the point where they would be performance enhancing. After all, they have to know that horses are going to get medical/pharmaceutical treatments for pain, swelling, etc at their home barns when they are not in competition. So it's really just a matter of the drugs clearing the system before competition unless the substance was being used to enhance performance.

Whatever happened to that initiative? Was it the IOC that required zero tolerance at these Olympics, or has the FEI not gotten around to setting drug tolerances?

Back when I was a lawyer, I did a lot of research into drug testing for humans. It's amazing what will show up as a drug positive--poppy seeds on a bagel can show up as a positive for opiates. And the time it takes for metabolites to show up in urine and then to clear will vary from person to person. If the same is true in horses, then the sort of drug testing that's being done on horses--if it is urine or hair based--puts those horses who can clear drugs from their systems efficiently at an advantage over those that can't. Blood tests are different because they show the amount of the drug circulating in the blood before it is metabolized and excreted. At least that's what I recall from the literature.

Pat
Aug. 27, 2008, 11:57 PM
I think it sounds like a nightmare in which you can't really control ANY contamination, if banned substances can come from groom's hands after they've eaten, or off a leg wrap that maybe has some essence of something left on it. I remember when Mike Huber was disqualified from an event due to a positive drug test, turns out the groom fed the horse a little piece of a chocolate bar as a treat, never knowing it was a banned substance, can't remember if it was caffeine that showed up or something else.


Yeah, that. My trainer and I had a discussion about that last week driving home from a show. Good thing as the teenager in the car is often responsible for administering meds to the family horses. Kim said something to the point of not switching feed tubs at shows (they use rubber floor feeders on overnights) and making sure that the "shaker bottles" they use for dissolving tablets are cleaned. The teen's eyes got a bit big as that concept of cross contamination had never occured to her. Shame on us adults for not bringing it up before. Especially since we do use Surpass on the teen's one horse. Just think of having that combined 4 other drugs showing up (that he never got a full dose of) in trace amounts. Yikes. Or the Surpass getting transferred to another horse from a leg wrap. Ohmi.

That chocolate was likely caffeine, but I think there are a variety of 'chemicals' present in chocolate. Could have been a bunch of stuff.

I once escorted a STB to the winner's detention barn at Freehold. Now, I don't have a groom's license, so I could only handle the tack and equipment. But we were kindly warned that if we left detention to get a drink to NOT have a caffienated beverage in detention. Just in case.

I have to agree that banned is banned, and keeping oneself educated is paramount. But there seems to be that the FEI has gone a bit over the hill on this whole thing. There has to be a way to differentiate between traces and flat out trying to mask a problem.

Pat
Aug. 28, 2008, 12:10 AM
It always amazes me that people will post on these boards “facts” with they are completely unaware of the facts.

With all due respect, Ms. Gray, the facts do tend to trickle in, not flow. Also, for better or worse, it's a free country, and people are going to express thier opinions. If those opinions are based on incomplete information than what is a person to do?

I'm going to have to agreee with J-Lu. There's not been a rush of outrage directed at Courtney. More like a hugfest than anything.

When it's your butt that could be getting measured for a sling, than it behooves you to micro manage. And I hate micro managers. There's a fairly well-known STB trainer that got set down because an inexperienced groom brought a bottle of bute into the detention barn. (er, I think that's the jist of the story, I read it in an STB magazine) Jimmy Takter didn't do it, but Jimmy Takter was the one that got the fine. The girl didn't lose her job but every body sure learned a lesson.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 12:12 AM
Whatever happened to that initiative? Was it the IOC that required zero tolerance at these Olympics, or has the FEI not gotten around to setting drug tolerances?

I believe that is the FEI's "Medicine Box" initiative; they began establishing approximate withdrawal periods for various medications and publish a chart with this information. It appears the first press release related to the initiative was in July 2006. In their release, they acknowledge the difficulty of estimating the times needed for meds to clear the horses' systems, and explained that they were focusing first on NSAIDs as these are most commonly the cause of positive test results. The list of medications on that list remains relatively short to this day, perhaps reflecting how hard it is to establish that type of guideline (on the capsaicin thread I just posted links to the June 2008 chart and other info re the Medicine Box).



And the time it takes for metabolites to show up in urine and then to clear will vary from person to person. If the same is true in horses, then the sort of drug testing that's being done on horses--if it is urine or hair based--puts those horses who can clear drugs from their systems efficiently at an advantage over those that can't. Blood tests are different because they show the amount of the drug circulating in the blood before it is metabolized and excreted. At least that's what I recall from the literature.

I don't know about the difference between blood and urine testing, but the amount of time it takes a drug to clear the system varies from horse to horse, which is why the FEI recommends adding a "safety margin" of time to the approximate withdrawal periods they provide. Obviously, that is not fool proof, but is more prudent than cutting it close.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 12:20 AM
With all due respect, Ms. Gray, the facts do tend to trickle in, not flow. Also, for better or worse, it's a free country, and people are going to express thier opinions. If those opinions are based on incomplete information than what is a person to do?

I'm going to have to agreee with J-Lu. There's not been a rush of outrage directed at Courtney. More like a hugfest than anything.

When it's your butt that could be getting measured for a sling, than it behooves you to micro manage. And I hate micro managers. There's a fairly well-known STB trainer that got set down because an inexperienced groom brought a bottle of bute into the detention barn. (er, I think that's the jist of the story, I read it in an STB magazine) Jimmy Takter didn't do it, but Jimmy Takter was the one that got the fine. The girl didn't lose her job but every body sure learned a lesson.

With all due respect, when only incomplete or no reliable information is available, people should refrain from making snap judgments and allow the investigation and hearing procedures to run their course (and maintain an open mind that perhaps it is just as likely that there is an innocent explanation or a testing error as a not-so-innocent explanation). There is a reason that defamation, libel, and slander are actionable. People can do enormous damage by spreading falsehoods, and often the damage cannot be undone just by virtue of the true and full story coming out. Over time, people remember tend to remember the "smoke," but often cannot recall if there was fire or not at the end of the day. Case in point: some people cannot recall the FEI's findings with regard to Ludger Beerbaum, who was in fact cleared of any intentional wrongdoing.

With respect to micro-managing, I would like to know what you suggest that anyone on CKD's team should have done differently.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 12:45 AM
I can only imagine what Courtney is going through right now, and I hope this works out in her favor. What amazes me is that with all that medical treatment, why wouldn't the assumption by the Team be that he would of course test positive for something (for pete's sake, even camphor is banned), and the team take the opportunity before competition to give a list of what had been used on him and give some kind of explanation ("hey, the horse has been ill, we don't know what he has been given or how long it lasts") instead of waiting for it to show up in a drug test as if she'd done something illegal??

It appears that a list of all medications given was prepared by the vets and made available to the FEI stewards. So, perhaps they made a mistake, the horse inadvertently came into contact with the substance -- unbeknownst to anyone -- or there was lab or sample contamination, among possible scenarios.

Guide to the use and authorization of veterinary treatment during an FEI event:

http://www.fei.org/Rules/Veterinary/Documents/Annex%20VI%20Guide%20to%20the%20use%20of%20Medicat ion%20Forms.pdf

Vet form for emergency medical treatment:
http://www.fei.org/Rules/Veterinary/Documents/Medication%20Form%201.pdf

Sabine
Aug. 28, 2008, 12:46 AM
Right on Oakie- moreover though - I really think we need to look at the labs and the testing methods.
You can not compare apples to oranges. I hope Courtney has the backing to file a HUGE complaint and if need be suit against the appropriate parties- because I believe she should be able to substantiate the fact that the standards and baseline readings used by the different labs are not the same. This would prove that although she exercised care and followed the rules- some unknown cause created this positive reading.
On this basis- Bejing's lab known to be the best in the world- will of course find the most..the ruling body will have to come to grips with what is going to be considered acceptable 'trace' quantities and massive- violations of the policy.

My guess is- if every horse was tested- we would not have any winners- nor medals...what a chirade...!

Sabine
Aug. 28, 2008, 12:51 AM
With all due respect to you and ESPECIALLY to Lendon Grey, I am hard-pressed to find a post where someone said Courtney King did something intentionally to cover up a problem with her horse. Or that she shouldn't have treated her horse for atrial fibrillation. Or that the situation was definitely not the result of an accidental exposure.

Courtney is an admired and very high-profile rider. She rides on the American team. This puts her into "celebrity status" amongst horse people. It is true, Lendon, that people don't have the facts yet. But do you honestly expect that NO ONE will discuss this event online? That no one will speculate about what could have happened? Do you think people aren't waiting for the facts? Do you honestly think that Courtney's reputation will immediately become tarnished, and people won't want to back her anymore? I think you might have missed the 14 "we love Courtney" threads and zeroed right into this one. Courtney is admired and loved by many, but she's also a human being just like everyone posting here. She's not untouchable because she's famous.

So let people touch on her. If you actually read the posts, you'll find that more people are hugging her than poking at her.


Dear J-Lu- love ya- but go to the dressage board...and bring a Schnaps-...there are some strange folks here....????

Foxtrot's
Aug. 28, 2008, 01:24 AM
It is said that anybody who has touched a $20.00 bill will have traces of cocaine in them .... then the racehorses that tested because a groom tied their tongue ties ... and we'll all remember Rob Robagliati and his snowboarding gold medal and he tested for
marijuhana. It didn't stick though because the time it takes for traces of MJ to leave the body were not decided. Wonder what his speed would have been if he had NOT been on MJ.

Too damn bad - I hope she is cleared, which I am sure she will be,
and her reputation will remain clean. (Like Silken Lauman was.)

slc2
Aug. 28, 2008, 06:39 AM
finally this drug test positive for Mythilus is making some sense, given that he was treated for a problem when he arrived (which of course the public was given no details on so it's natural that people would be confused and surprised, and ask questions), but I agree with others - it sounds like the drug testing process has gone a little haywire. If the medications given the horse at arrival were documented and that was given to the drug testing people, wouldn't they know what drugs might still be present at a later date when the horse was tested?

Years ago drug testing became very popular with employers and many of us were drug tested. We always brought all our prescriptions with us, and all medicall treatment we'd recently had had to be documented. I once had a 'positive' test because several weeks before, I'd had a riding accident, injured my back and was given a post-operative pain shot. I showed the documentation to the lab and that was the end of the problem.

Is there a weakness in the FEI tests where they do not do that? I thought that was taken into account. I also think a horse might be given anti inflammatory medications for some heart problems.

meupatdoes
Aug. 28, 2008, 07:19 AM
Coreene

Is there a reason you left out the part where not even the USEF believes Courtney or the vet had anything to do with the drug getting into the horse's system?

HERE IS THE REST OF USEF'S NEWS RELEASE:

When Mythilus arrived in Hong Kong he was treated in the Hong Kong Jockey Club Clinic for artrial fibrillation as a result of the stress of his trip. USEF Veterinarian, Dr. Rick Mitchell attended to the horse in close cooperation with the Veterinary Commission. King-Dye and Dr. Mitchell believe that during treatment at the clinic, he may have come in contact with Felbinac. In discussion with King-Dye, USEF vets, grooms and physical therapists, no other explanation or conclusion was able to be drawn.

“Neither I nor my vets had ever heard of the drug Felbinac until we got the call about Myth's positive test,” said King-Dye. “We were stunned and baffled. We spent the entire day doing internet research on the uses for this drug and how it could possibly have gotten into my horse's system. As far as we could find it is not even manufactured, approved, or available in the US. My horse has had no soundness problems whatsoever, and I would have no need for an anti-inflammatory. Anyone who knows me knows whole heartedly that I would never dope my horse intentionally. It is cheating; it is not putting your best against the other’s best. I have never been in a more torturous and frustrating situation; trying to prove innocence is very hard. It saddens me beyond description that my whole reputation could be blackened because of this situation.”

The FEI Tribunal stated in their Preliminary Decision that “there are circumstances in this case that makes it difficult to clear out how the Prohibited Substance entered into the horse’s system.”

“The USEF stands behind the FEI's initiatives to rid the sport of doping and to protect the welfare of our horses. We are equally supportive of Courtney in this situation as this substance was unknown to any of us until a few days ago,” said USEF CEO John Long. “It seems clear that Mythilus came into contact with it without Courtney's or Dr. Mitchell's knowledge.”

Selective quoting FTW.

Way to go. Nice one.

passagedreamer
Aug. 28, 2008, 07:47 AM
Sabine: If CKD files a HUGE complaint and spends a ton of money defending herself, and all of her efforts come back still positive, her penlty will be MUCH worse. Pay the fine, take the suspension and MOVE ON !!! Take it as a very valuable learning experience. And I am FAR from making light of this issue, BUT if it was me.... that is what I would do.

To me, 2 very SAD things happened for 2 people at this Olympics and both ladies will never forget it.

But I do have one question: IF Myth had such a serious heart condition, why did they allow the horse to compete ??? Isn't that why we take a reserve horse ??? Ok... maybe they said the horse got better, but 9 nose TUBES..... that doesn't sound like something that would go away on it's own so fast.... Just wondering ???? - NOT bitching

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:00 AM
Sabine: If CKD files a HUGE complaint and spends a ton of money defending herself, and all of her efforts come back still positive, her penlty will be MUCH worse. Pay the fine, take the suspension and MOVE ON !!! Take it as a very valuable learning experience. And I am FAR from making light of this issue, BUT if it was me.... that is what I would do.


And you are advising this based on your vast experience with . . . what exactly? The FEI has a hearing process for a reason. They allow competitors to submit evidence and their side of the story. Circumstances surrounding a positive are taken into account to determine whether sanctions should be lowered or eliminated entirely. Also, it is always possible that there was lab or sample contamination, or something else that could fully exonerate the person. If there is evidence that occurred, why on Earth should someone NOT bring that to the attention of the FEI?

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:05 AM
Coreene

Is there a reason you left out the part where not even the USEF believes Courtney or the vet had anything to do with the drug getting into the horse's system?

.

Whoa, hold on. Coreene posted the FEI press release. You have posted an excerpt from the statement released by the USEF, which came out shortly thereafter. I do not believe Coreene left out anything when she posted the FEI statement.

slc2
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:10 AM
Unfortunately, it only will raise more questions. I don't see that horses are routinely given topical NSAIDS for heart conditions, no matter what sort of heart condition, would it be used to keep an iv site from getting sore? I don't think so. Therefore, sample contamination or tampering with the horse seems more likely.

I am not sure that having an irregular heart beat on arrival at Hong Kong would necessarily keep a horse out of competion a few weeks alter. The way I understand it, these cases can be treated very quickly (the old drug is quinidine for fibrillation, but there is a new better drug being used in some countries, including japan now), but it requires a lot of hands and a lot of quick work. And an opportunity for contamination or tampering.

I disagree that someone should just take the accusation, pay the fine and move on. I've no experience, but spent several hours in the last few days since this came out, reading banned substance proceedings. I see no indication that people are punished more for trying to defend themselves. The problem I see is that it would be very hard to trace or prove a contamination or a tampering. It casts aspersions on the vet lab and their procedures, something they would resist, I would think.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:26 AM
Unfortunately, it only will raise more questions. I don't see that horses are routinely given topical NSAIDS for heart conditions, no matter what sort of heart condition, would it be used to keep an iv site from getting sore? I don't think so. Therefore, sample contamination or tampering with the horse seems more likely.
.

One use of the particular substance at issue apparently is, in its gel form, as a coupling agent for ultrasounds. Perhaps that was a possibility (in addition to the ones you suggested)? Or someone mistakenly gave the wrong medication? That happens sometimes to patients in hospitals. Another possibility is a drug manufacturer error. One thing I would look at is who made the substance at issue, and research what other drugs they make that might have been used on the horse. Theoretically, it is possible that one of the mediations could have been contaminated at the manufacturer's site and thus given to the horse inadvertently along with the med they intended to give (have you ever noticed for example how some foods that you'd never think contain nuts have labels saying "warning: may contain nuts" because they are made in the same factory as other products that do contain nuts?).

GreenMachine
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:29 AM
Whoa, hold on. Coreene posted the FEI press release. You have posted an excerpt from the statement released by the USEF, which came out shortly thereafter. I do not believe Coreene left out anything when she posted the FEI statement.

Hence the big bold italics "From the FEI Press News that came out in the last few minutes:"


Selective quoting FTW.

Selective reading FTW? ;)

magnolia73
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:30 AM
topical NSAIDS for heart conditions, no matter what sort of heart condition, would it be used to keep an iv site from getting sore?

It was mentioned that the drug was used in the gel for ultrasounds- perhaps they gave him an ultrasound to check on his heart. Or on the equipment etc.

slc2
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:38 AM
Whew. THAT would be easier to prove as a contamination source. Boy I hope so anyway. If that is what happened, they may get some sort of action for not realizing what the gel had in it, but then at least it is clear it was a contamination rather than an intentional thing - on anyone's part.

SonnysMom
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:27 AM
So with FEI I guess you would need to keep your horse in a totally solid stall with a padlock to prevent tampering. Since many of these drugs are transdermal it seems like it would be really easy to tamper with horses so they get eliminated by testing positive.

All it would take is a handful of Surpass or Sore no More or whatever, slide your hand thru the bars and run the hand down horses neck.
Rider and connections have no clue how this substance got in the system. I understand you could post guards with each horse or each team but all it takes is a few second distraction to administer the substance. Or you smear it on the boots the horse will use for competition or standing wraps. The horses tack may be more accessible than the horse.
I can't even really begin to imaging how a rider could 100% protect there horse from intentional tampering.
People that cheat will find a way to cheat and one of those ways could be that Rider A always wins over Rider B so Rider B or one of Rider B's supporters tampers with Rider's A horse or tack so Horse A tests positive. Now Rider B gets moved up in the results since Horse A is eliminated.
Scary isn't it.
Or maybe since I have never seen the security at these events none of the above is really that plausible

ToN Farm
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:34 AM
I think this case will set a precedent. No matter how a drug gets into a horse's system, the owner is responsible.........right? If this charge against CKD is dropped, then it opens the door for everyone that tests positive to deny they did it and blame it on some cross contamination, etc.

If this were Anky, you guys would be having a field day.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:42 AM
I think this case will set a precedent. No matter how a drug gets into a horse's system, the owner is responsible.........right? If this charge against CKD is dropped, then it opens the door for everyone that tests positive to deny they did it and blame it on some cross contamination, etc.

If this were Anky, you guys would be having a field day.

There are plenty of people here having a field day as it is. Everyone hates a winner.

Whether the charge against CKD is dropped or not, the unfairness inherent in a drug testing system that allows trace amounts of a drug, easily and inadvertently transferred from environmental sources, to form the basis of a disqualification, should be examined and the system should be reformed to avoid abitrary, irrational results.

claire
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:49 AM
I also wonder if this CKD's case might not set a precedent.

But, hope that it might be setting levels of banned substances (rather than just the presence)
ie. above a certain level the substance could be determined to be "more likely" being used as a performance enhancement.

Is that possible? (knowing of course, that nothing is going to totally eliminate all false positive tests)

RAyers
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:57 AM
I just want to point out that it does NOT matter where the drugs come from nor what procedure is being done. If the FEI vet panel is informed and aware of the treatment, then they can ALLOW all of this to happen and the horse to compete. Banned drugs can be used to treat valid health concerns during competition so long as the FEI vets are aware of the diagnosis and oversee the treatment (they observe, not dictate what treatment is to be done. That is left to the specialists). Not going through the FEI vets becomes a problem if the horse's handlers use an outside vet to avoid the possibility FEI oversight.

I have done enough FEI competitions to see this done. For example, one time I went through the FEI vet for treatment oversight by another vet while a fellow competitor used an offsite vet and hoped to pass the vet the following day.

Now, if the FEI vet oversaw what happened with approval and then reversed themselves, that is bad.

As for security, it is pretty tight. You have to list who is allowed to come in contact with your animal (we have space for 4 grooms on the eventing FEI entry forms). They are then required to go through a security gate with guard to the barns at all times. Yes, there are ways to get around that but most places make the FEI barns into fenced compounds separated from all other horses and people.

Reed


It always amazes me that people will post on these boards “facts” with they are completely unaware of the facts. Let me just tell you all that Mythilus had a serious heart condition on arrival in Hong Kong and had to be handled by vets other than the US vet. He had ultrasounds and 9 nose tubings. They were using medications that were not brought from the US, since the US vet never expected to have to treat his problem.

Let me also say that no one has ever seen Mythilus to be unsound since he was brought to the US.

However he did test positive and the FEI has the right to suspend Courtney even though she has no knowledge of how the drug came into contact with Myth. We will know more after the hearing. For those of you who have admired Courtney and believed in her, I hope you will continue to do so. She deserves it.

vineyridge
Aug. 28, 2008, 10:04 AM
Lest we forget, the German eventer Bettina Hoy was also slapped with a drug infraction at the last Olympics. While Ludger Beerbaum appealed his and lost, Bettina appealed hers and won. She claimed that a mysterious and disappearing FEI vet had given approval for the substance that was used on her horse.

The Hoy case was very peculiar. ;)

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 10:11 AM
Lest we forget, the German eventer Bettina Hoy was also slapped with a drug infraction at the last Olympics. While Ludger Beerbaum appealed his and lost, Bettina appealed hers and won. She claimed that a mysterious and disappearing FEI vet had given approval for the substance that was used on her horse.

The Hoy case was very peculiar. ;)

Just to clarify, Ludger Beerbaum was cleared of any intentional wrongdoing. The ultimate finding was that there was a violation by virtue of the fact there was a positive sample.

sm
Aug. 28, 2008, 10:11 AM
Bummer for Courtney. And Dutton's horse was disqualified in eventing because his x-c boots where not within regulation. As if Phillip wouldn't have swapped boots if he had known. Phillip is strong enough to have placed in the medals...

Maybe we need a technical expert or two to go with our teams.


I just want to point out that it does NOT matter where the drugs come from nor what procedure is being done. If the FEI vet panel is informed and aware of the treatment, then they can ALLOW all of this to happen and the horse to compete. Banned drugs can be used to treat valid health concerns during competition so long as the FEI vets are aware of the diagnosis and oversee the treatment (they observe, not dictate what treatment is to be done. That is left to the specialists). Not going through the FEI vets becomes a problem if the horse's handlers use an outside vet to avoid the possibility FEI oversight.

I have done enough FEI competitions to see this done. For example, one time I went through the FEI vet for treatment oversight by another vet while a fellow competitor used an offsite vet and hoped to pass the vet the following day.

Now, if the FEI vet oversaw what happened with approval and then reversed themselves, that is bad.

As for security, it is pretty tight. You have to list who is allowed to come in contact with your animal (we have space for 4 grooms on the eventing FEI entry forms). They are then required to go through a security gate with guard to the barns at all times. Yes, there are ways to get around that but most places make the FEI barns into fenced compounds separated from all other horses and people.

Reed

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 10:19 AM
There is nothing to indicate CKD did not go through the FEI vets and follow all the proper procedures (to the contrary, Ms. Gray's post indicates that she did). I really would like to know what people think she should have done differently.

freestyle2music
Aug. 28, 2008, 10:21 AM
Eleven days before the start of the Olympics, Dutch vet Frits Sluyter reseigned as the Head Vet of the FEI, during HongKong his job will be taken care of by Schotish John McEwen. The FEI wanted to let everybody know that the reseignment of Sluyter didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't agree with the doping control at HongKong.:cool:;)

RAyers
Aug. 28, 2008, 10:29 AM
There is nothing in Ms. gray's post that indicates CKD did go through the FEI vets/procedures either. She simply stated the horse was treated outside the US team vet (who does not necessarily have to be FEI certified) oversight. I presented an example of how the rules allow for a rider to legally use outside vets at an FEI competition.

Who knows what really happened, I don't? I do know what happens behind the scenes at FEI competitions (as a member of the vet panel and as a competitor) and I have seen a variety of things both legal and illegal.

Reed



There is nothing to indicate CKD did not go through the FEI vets and follow all the proper procedures (to the contrary, Ms. Gray's post indicates that she did). I really would like to know what people think she should have done differently.

Mozart
Aug. 28, 2008, 10:32 AM
I think it would be interesting to know if CKD did the post arrival testing, because if she did and there was no trace of felbinac, I think that it would certainly point to the treatment vets as being the source of the contamination. That of course depends on what point in time he was treated for his heart condition.

Felbinac is on the list of substances checked in post arrival testing (unlike capsaicin)

But really, let's not forget it is really "early days" for all of those found with banned substances. Investigations take time.

gottagrey
Aug. 28, 2008, 10:42 AM
Lest we forget, the German eventer Bettina Hoy was also slapped with a drug infraction at the last Olympics. While Ludger Beerbaum appealed his and lost, Bettina appealed hers and won. She claimed that a mysterious and disappearing FEI vet had given approval for the substance that was used on her horse.

The Hoy case was very peculiar. ;)

I believe in the Hoy case (talk about a double whammy) that she was cleared as I seem to recall reading that she had included the medication/substance on a medical report prior to/during competition.

poltroon
Aug. 28, 2008, 12:27 PM
It always amazes me that people will post on these boards “facts” with they are completely unaware of the facts. Let me just tell you all that Mythilus had a serious heart condition on arrival in Hong Kong and had to be handled by vets other than the US vet. He had ultrasounds and 9 nose tubings. They were using medications that were not brought from the US, since the US vet never expected to have to treat his problem.

Let me also say that no one has ever seen Mythilus to be unsound since he was brought to the US.

However he did test positive and the FEI has the right to suspend Courtney even though she has no knowledge of how the drug came into contact with Myth. We will know more after the hearing. For those of you who have admired Courtney and believed in her, I hope you will continue to do so. She deserves it.

Lendon, I appreciate your post on this. Of course, since the heart issue was not public, none of us here would know about it.

It seems, though, that we have found on this thread your answer, that the drug is found in the coupling gel used for ultrasounds. I hope this suggestion has made it's way to Courtney and the Team officials dealing with the matter.

Regardless, she had a great ride... and she's fortunate that it was an NSAID, since I think it's apparent to everyone that regardless of what happens officially, NSAIDs are theraputic in nature.

Coreene
Aug. 28, 2008, 01:04 PM
Coreene

Is there a reason you left out the part where not even the USEF believes Courtney or the vet had anything to do with the drug getting into the horse's system?
Selective quoting FTW.

Way to go. Nice one.Hey bucko, read for comprehension the next time. If you read THE VERY FIRST LINE of my post it clearly states that it was FROM THE FEI and not from USEF.

So way to go, Mensa member! Nice one!

canyonoak
Aug. 28, 2008, 01:09 PM
<<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eleven days before the start of the Olympics, Dutch vet Frits Sluyter reseigned as the Head Vet of the FEI, during HongKong his job will be taken care of by Schotish John McEwen. The FEI wanted to let everybody know that the reseignment of Sluyter didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't agree with the doping control at HongKong.>>



yah, it all started with that...remember me asking you WHY?

I guess we now have some idea.
Those Dutch--always wanting to be FAIR to the competitors!

meupatdoes
Aug. 28, 2008, 01:17 PM
USEF's release looks like this:

Lexington, KY - Following a routine drug test on August 19 at the 2008 Olympic Games in Hong Kong, Mythilus, a US dressage horse, ridden by Courtney King-Dye, was found to have tested positive for Felbinac. Felbinac is considered a class A prohibited substance by the FEI. Felbinac is usually applied topically for the relief of local pain and inflammation and belongs to a group of medicines called non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs).

When Mythilus arrived in Hong Kong he was treated in the Hong Kong Jockey Club Clinic for artrial fibrillation as a result of the stress of his trip. USEF Veterinarian, Dr. Rick Mitchell attended to the horse in close cooperation with the Veterinary Commission. King-Dye and Dr. Mitchell believe that during treatment at the clinic, he may have come in contact with Felbinac. In discussion with King-Dye, USEF vets, grooms and physical therapists, no other explanation or conclusion was able to be drawn.

“Neither I nor my vets had ever heard of the drug Felbinac until we got the call about Myth's positive test,” said King-Dye. “We were stunned and baffled. We spent the entire day doing internet research on the uses for this drug and how it could possibly have gotten into my horse's system. As far as we could find it is not even manufactured, approved, or available in the US. My horse has had no soundness problems whatsoever, and I would have no need for an anti-inflammatory. Anyone who knows me knows whole heartedly that I would never dope my horse intentionally. It is cheating; it is not putting your best against the other’s best. I have never been in a more torturous and frustrating situation; trying to prove innocence is very hard. It saddens me beyond description that my whole reputation could be blackened because of this situation.”

The FEI Tribunal stated in their Preliminary Decision that “there are circumstances in this case that makes it difficult to clear out how the Prohibited Substance entered into the horse’s system.”

“The USEF stands behind the FEI's initiatives to rid the sport of doping and to protect the welfare of our horses. We are equally supportive of Courtney in this situation as this substance was unknown to any of us until a few days ago,” said USEF CEO John Long. “It seems clear that Mythilus came into contact with it without Courtney's or Dr. Mitchell's knowledge.”


From the FEI Press Release:

King-Dye, who placed 13th individually in the Dressage competition, was officially notified on the morning of August 22 of the positive test result and the decision for provisional suspension was upheld that evening at a preliminary hearing before one member of the FEI Tribunal.

Given that the Dressage events of the 2008 Olympic Games ended on August 19 it was decided to wait until the confirmatory B analysis prior to any public announcement of the findings. The FEI has now received confirmation of the initial finding from the analysis of the B sample.

Next steps

Now that the B samples have confirmed all the initial findings, the process will follow the Accelerated Medication Control Procedure during & after the 2008 Olympic Games which is part of the FEI Regulations for Equestrian events at the 2008 Olympic Games (Annex G), available on FEI Olympic website.

Evidence and written submissions have been requested from each rider, and a three-member panel of the FEI Tribunal has been appointed. Hearings will be held on September 5-7 in Lausanne, however it is up to the Person Responsible whether or not they wish to exercise or waive their right to be heard. The panel will then, in light of all the evidence received, take a decision as to the applicable sanction if any.

An update will be provided by the FEI following the hearings (September 8) and final decisions will be announced prior to the end of the first week in October, provided the hearings can be held as scheduled. However, these deadlines are indicative timelines, and may be affected by specific circumstances as with any legal proceeding.

The competition results will be amended as indicated in the Tribunal’s final decision.

Because this case is still pending there will be no further comment from the USEF.




Because the USEF release quotes the FEI release in its entirety, your post looked to me like you had selectively edited out the first half of the press release. Technically you could do this and still put in your "FEI release" heading because USEF quotes the actual release word for word.
I made the EGREGIOUS error of reading that whole thing like it was one release, not a release which quotes another release.

YankeeLawyer corrected me politely saying that I was talking about the USEF release which came out a few minutes after the FEI one and I was perfectly happy to accept the clarification. Then someone else corrected me again quoting YankeeLawyer's correction. And now you are recorrecting everything again(, bucko).

Meanwhile, with all the attention the USEF release is now getting, I am surprised to read that people think the heart condition wasn't public, since the first sentence of the paragraphs I initially quoted mentions that the horse was treated for arterial fibrillation. Do people just really not want to read the USEF release or something?

poltroon
Aug. 28, 2008, 01:18 PM
<<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eleven days before the start of the Olympics, Dutch vet Frits Sluyter reseigned as the Head Vet of the FEI, during HongKong his job will be taken care of by Schotish John McEwen. The FEI wanted to let everybody know that the reseignment of Sluyter didn't have anything to do with the fact that he didn't agree with the doping control at HongKong.>>



yah, it all started with that...remember me asking you WHY?

I guess we now have some idea.
Those Dutch--always wanting to be FAIR to the competitors!

Did those double negatives come from a Babelfish translation? :D

poltroon
Aug. 28, 2008, 01:21 PM
Meanwhile, with all the attention the USEF release is now getting, I am surprised to read that people think the heart condition wasn't public, since the first sentence of the paragraphs I quoted mentions that the horse was treated for arterial fibrolation. Do people just really not want to read the USEF release or something?

It was public as soon as the USEF release came out - which was AFTER the FEI release. :)

harvestmoon
Aug. 28, 2008, 01:23 PM
Stupid question (and if it's been asked, I apologize for missing it), but when they test can they figure out how much of the banned substance is in their system? It seems like these minuscule amounts wouldn't alter performance at all. I mean, couldn't it just be something as simple as someone touch something and then touching the horse? Or are the tests not that sensitive?

Coreene
Aug. 28, 2008, 01:30 PM
meupatdoes, if you read the title of the thread, it also shows that it is from the FEI and not USEF.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 02:00 PM
It seems, though, that we have found on this thread your answer, that the drug is found in the coupling gel used for ultrasounds. I hope this suggestion has made it's way to Courtney and the Team officials dealing with the matter.


Huh? Well, the post indicates facts that make that a possibility. But I can think of a number of other ways the horse could inadverently or mistakenly have been exposed to the drug or the samples contaminated. I believe it would be a grave error to leap onto one fact and prematurely exclude other possibilities.

Pommederue
Aug. 28, 2008, 02:41 PM
Over 10 years ago I followed my trainer to a couple of CDI's while she competed. I remember her telling me she used to SCRUB DOWN the stall she was assigned to at the show venue -- including the feeder because 'you never know what the previous horse in that stall had been given or treated with and it was HER responsibility to make sure her horse didn't ingest or touch something that was prohibited.' She herself would not even take an aspirin because back then they were just starting to talk about testing the riders. I know that if her horse had been in a vet clinic to be treated for anything, she would have cleared a path and never taken her eyes off him -- or assumed nothing would be accidentally used.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 02:56 PM
Over 10 years ago I followed my trainer to a couple of CDI's while she competed. I remember her telling me she used to SCRUB DOWN the stall she was assigned to at the show venue -- including the feeder because 'you never know what the previous horse in that stall had been given or treated with and it was HER responsibility to make sure her horse didn't ingest or touch something that was prohibited.' She herself would not even take an aspirin because back then they were just starting to talk about testing the riders. I know that if her horse had been in a vet clinic to be treated for anything, she would have cleared a path and never taken her eyes off him -- or assumed nothing would be accidentally used.

Well, that innocent product she used to scrub down might cause a positive result given how the FEI rules are drafted.

grayarabpony
Aug. 28, 2008, 03:02 PM
If my horse had a heart arrhythmia I'd be mostly concerned that he pulled through than thinking about what the vets were using and how it might affect testing. What is the rider going to do, step in and say "Don't use that gel. Don't ultrasound my horse." Give me a break.

Pommederue
Aug. 28, 2008, 03:14 PM
If my horse had a heart arrythmia I'd be mostly concerned that he pulled through than thinking about what the vets were using and how it might affect testing. What is the rider going to do, step in and say "Don't use that gel. Don't ultrasound my horse." Give me a break.
Of course you would be concerned. And then you would be responsible for the repercussion after the fact i.e., did anything touch your horse that could be on the FEI's prohibited list if you still planned to compete a horse that had an arrhythmia due to stress?

ceffyl
Aug. 28, 2008, 03:31 PM
Of course you would be concerned. And then you would be responsible for the repercussion after the fact i.e., did anything touch your horse that could be on the FEI's prohibited list if you still planned to compete a horse that had an arrhythmia due to stress?

Surely the rider, team vet/s, Chief d'.....et al just let the HK vet team go to town on the horse without any thought as to what was being used and why. The HK veterinarians would have known as much as anyone the FEI, IOC, WADA rules. Blame cannot be passed down the line.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 03:50 PM
Of course you would be concerned. And then you would be responsible for the repercussion after the fact i.e., did anything touch your horse that could be on the FEI's prohibited list if you still planned to compete a horse that had an arrhythmia due to stress?

Please read the rules. Zero tolerance does not mean that no medications can be used. There is a protocol to be followed when a horse requires medical treatment during an FEI event. The vets are to record anything used on the horse, and the FEI vets have authority to allow the horse to proceed with the competition.

Rules need to be made for the world we live in, not LaLa land. If your trainer's horse were to require emergency a treatment in a vet clinic she would push the vets aside to scrub down the clinic stalls with Lysol? Bull. And no amount of Lysol is going to prevent a drug manufacturer error, doctor error, sample or lab contamination, or a number of other possible causes of a positive sample that cannot be avoided no matter how diligent the Person Responsible.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 03:51 PM
Surely the rider, team vet/s, Chief d'.....et al just let the HK vet team go to town on the horse without any thought as to what was being used and why. The HK veterinarians would have known as much as anyone the FEI, IOC, WADA rules. Blame cannot be passed down the line.

Can you please clarify this statement? I can't understand whether you mean to say that CKD and her team completely dropped the ball, or the opposite.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 03:55 PM
If my horse had a heart arrhythmia I'd be mostly concerned that he pulled through than thinking about what the vets were using and how it might affect testing. What is the rider going to do, step in and say "Don't use that gel. Don't ultrasound my horse." Give me a break.

It is really not that helpful to assume that it was gel that was the cause, because then you have people like Pommerue arguing something could have been done to have prevented the situation. No one knows if any gel containing that substance was used or otherwise on the equipment.

Schiffon
Aug. 28, 2008, 04:46 PM
Stupid question (and if it's been asked, I apologize for missing it), but when they test can they figure out how much of the banned substance is in their system? It seems like these minuscule amounts wouldn't alter performance at all. I mean, couldn't it just be something as simple as someone touch something and then touching the horse? Or are the tests not that sensitive?

I'd also be interested in knowing the analytical processes used in the testing. In human drug testing, there is usually a quick screening procedure for a list of 10 or so drugs and a simple positive or negative is the only possible result. It would then be possible to go back to the same sample (if enough was left over) and get a quantitative result on any drug that came back positive. However, this is not an exact science that can reveal the exact circumstances. A small amount in the blood could be mean a small exposure a short time ago or a large exposure a longer time ago. In the case of CKD and the ultrasound gel theory, a quantitative result could be more helpful since the time of the procedure is known and reasonable calculations could be made about how much drug is in the gel and how much would be absorbed through the skin and how much would be left in the blood, knowing the usual range of half-lives of the drug.

grayarabpony
Aug. 28, 2008, 05:28 PM
Of course you would be concerned. And then you would be responsible for the repercussion after the fact i.e., did anything touch your horse that could be on the FEI's prohibited list if you still planned to compete a horse that had an arrhythmia due to stress?

How do you know it was due to stress? :rolleyes: Could have been due to an electrolyte balance.

Oh forget it, you sound like a troll anyway.

grayarabpony
Aug. 28, 2008, 05:29 PM
It is really not that helpful to assume that it was gel that was the cause, because then you have people like Pommerue arguing something could have been done to have prevented the situation. No one knows if any gel containing that substance was used or otherwise on the equipment.

I'm not assuming anything, but using that as an example.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Equibrit
Aug. 28, 2008, 06:07 PM
Why not cut out the speculation and wait to comment when you KNOW something?

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 06:37 PM
Why not cut out the speculation and wait to comment when you KNOW something?

Is that what you do?

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 06:39 PM
I'm not assuming anything, but using that as an example.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I wasn't singling you out; a number of posts here and on other threads have started repeating that it *was* gel that caused the problem, when no one even knows if gel was ever used.

CBoylen
Aug. 28, 2008, 06:52 PM
If your trainer's horse were to require emergency a treatment in a vet clinic she would push the vets aside to scrub down the clinic stalls with Lysol? Bull. And no amount of Lysol is going to prevent a drug manufacturer error, doctor error, sample or lab contamination, or a number of other possible causes of a positive sample that cannot be avoided no matter how diligent the Person Responsible.
Actually, Lysol contains Ethyl Alcohol :lol:. ;)

vineyridge
Aug. 28, 2008, 06:58 PM
Here is a news story about the Hoy drugging decision.

Very mysterious.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/equestrianism/2392852/Drug-riddle-of-the-vanishing-vet.html

canyonoak
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:21 PM
<< The crux of her defence was that approval had been granted by a man she, and the German team, mistook for an official FEI vet. He appears not to have been. According to Ken Lalo, chairman of the three-man judicial committee who sat in judgement of her case: "He was a person in the right place at the right time. They received authorisation from someone who appeared to be a representative of the FEI. We do not know who it was.

"But he was in the veterinary clinic in the clothes of a veterinary representative and he came when summoned by the receptionist. We found, in this case, that there was 'deemed authorisation'."

It has to be said, beyond the four walls in Zurich where the decision was made, many people are wondering how this "deemed" individual, posing as an FEI vet, could have been allowed to make such a significant decision at the most high-profile event in the sporting calendar. The mystery man was not available to attend the hearing. When asked if the committee had assumed his existence, Lalo replied: "We assume, yes."

There is amazement and not a little anger that, following the violation of so many rules, Hoy has escaped without sanction. This decision is perceived to drive a coach, horses, riders, vets and federation lawyers through a clutch of articles in the FEI general regulations.>>



Well!

It is all so clear to me now:

FIND THIS MAN!!!!!

He is obviously the key to the FEI drug test system!!!

This must be why the German Federation is now so unbelievably angry with Christian Ahlmann--he FAILED to find this man!

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 08:50 PM
Actually, Lysol contains Ethyl Alcohol :lol:. ;)

Not to mention the fumes from sniffing aerosol. I wonder what the penalty is for that. ;)

petitefilly
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:00 PM
I wasn't singling you out; a number of posts here and on other threads have started repeating that it *was* gel that caused the problem, when no one even knows if gel was ever used.


You are totally correct in your statement. I too repeated this, and I am sorry I did so. Rumors will fly anywhere, and the internet is like all of us adding gasoline to the fire.

I regret she has this problem with the tests, the drug, and the stigma that it will put on her good name. I hope this is resolved in her favor and her honor is restored. Bless her.

AiryFairy
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:16 PM
I think the point that a lot of us are trying to make is "how the hell do you KNOW what your horse has been exposed to?" If the tests are so sensitive that they are picking up any trace of 'banned substances', no matter where they are found, you may as well not breathe in the same stall or touch your horse, lest your glove have brushed a leg wrap with some Absorbine on it. The whole drug testing thing is getting absurd - there is abuse, for certain, but those people who abuse and cheat should be easy enough to catch out without screening for every faint whiff of camphor. Courtney should/would have had a justifiable excuse with her horse's treatment, if the drugs were revealed, so perhaps they need to find a way of refining the tests. Good god, horses love peppermints, are those banned as well because of the aromatic oil?


Of course you would be concerned. And then you would be responsible for the repercussion after the fact i.e., did anything touch your horse that could be on the FEI's prohibited list if you still planned to compete a horse that had an arrhythmia due to stress?

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:21 PM
Good god, horses love peppermints, are those banned as well because of the aromatic oil?

I would think, but not guarantee, that the cheapo starlight mints that my horses prefer probably are not a problem, but some fancier mints might be. Menthol, for example, is a prohibited substance.

Kenike
Aug. 29, 2008, 12:47 AM
I haven't read all to catch back up, but want to apologize for the Surpass confusion. I read, just as everyone else, that the substance was in Surpass and just went with it. BIG mistake, and one I know not to make. I usually don't. I apologize for taking that argument.

Despite being a proponent for drug testing, I believe it's starting to get a little ridiculous. I mean, seriously!

Okay, I'm too tired and brain dead from homework right now, so I can't even explain, but many others already have.

vineyridge
Aug. 29, 2008, 01:04 AM
You are totally correct in your statement. I too repeated this, and I am sorry I did so. Rumors will fly anywhere, and the internet is like all of us adding gasoline to the fire.

I regret she has this problem with the tests, the drug, and the stigma that it will put on her good name. I hope this is resolved in her favor and her honor is restored. Bless her.

Heck, these days there is NO stigma for failing a drug test if you are high enough profile and have a reasonable story. Who remembers that MMB got set down for a while before the last Olympics and didn't make the German Team (although I'm not sure the two things were related). Ludger Beerbaum has suffered no stigma; nor has Ulla. Oh wait, maybe there is a stigma only if you aren't German. ;) Cian O'Conor was raked over the coals and is still in the doghouse, but it's more because of the disappearing sample and the break in, burglary and theft of documents relating to his case.

Frank B
Aug. 29, 2008, 08:06 AM
Parts-per-billion and parts-per-trillion test sensitivities have made "zero tolerance" policies a relic of the Twentieth Century. It's time for the powers-that-be to face up to that fact, determine what levels of various substances will affect performance, and set limits accordingly.

But since "zero tolerance" relieves mindless bureaucrats and administrators of having to make desisions, that's not going to happen any time in the forseeable future.

JM$.02W!

Ja Da Dee
Aug. 29, 2008, 08:13 AM
Maybe this is how they will get equestrian out of the Olympics. Make all the riders refuse to go because the drug tests are too sensitive. Eventually, the risk to your reputation may not be worth it.

pharmgirl
Aug. 29, 2008, 08:24 AM
Parts-per-billion and parts-per-trillion test sensitivities have made "zero tolerance" policies a relic of the Twentieth Century. It's time for the powers-that-be to face up to that fact, determine what levels of various substances will affect performance, and set limits accordingly.


Totally agree. The tests have become extremely sensitive, and it will only keep going as methods improve. Tolerance levels have to be set.

Regal Grace
Aug. 29, 2008, 08:54 AM
Maybe this is how they will get equestrian out of the Olympics. Make all the riders refuse to go because the drug tests are too sensitive. Eventually, the risk to your reputation may not be worth it.

I don't recieve H&H but I noticed this article is in this weeks issue.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/thisweekhh/

Calamber
Aug. 29, 2008, 09:20 AM
Apparently Mythilus went into atrial fibrillationfrom the stress of the trip and was treated at a clinic in Hong Kong, neither Courtney nor her vet Dr. Mitechell have ever heard of any product using the banned substance and are trying to figure out how it entered his system.

This article is from Equisearch:



Four Riders Disqualified For Doping, And Norway May Lose Their Medal For It
2008 Olympic Equestrian Medal Winners
Day 12: Canadian Takes Show Jumping Gold
Day 11: Anky Van Grunsven Makes History With 3rd Consecutive Gold
OnTheBit on Horse Doping Update From the 2008 Olympics

August 28, 2008
Test B results are in for the four show jumpers who tested positive for the illegal substance Capsacain, and they are confirmed positive. An article on Equisearch says:

Now that the B samples have confirmed all the initial findings, the process will follow the Accelerated Medication Control Procedure during and after the 2008 Olympic Games which is part of the FEI Regulations for Equestrian events at the 2008 Olympic Games (Annex G), available on the FEI Olympic website.

Evidence and written submissions have been requested from each rider, and a three-member panel of the FEI Tribunal has been appointed. Hearings will be held September 5-7 in Lausanne, Switzerland, however, it is up to the people responsible whether or not they wish to exercise or waive their right to be heard. The panel will then, in light of all the evidence received, take a decision as to the applicable sanction, if any.

An update will be provided by the FEI following the hearings (September and final decisions will be announced prior to the end of the first week in October, provided the hearings can be held as scheduled. However, these deadlines are indicative timelines, and may be affected by specific circumstances as with any legal proceeding. The competition results will be amended as indicated in the Tribunal’s final decision.

The horse and rider teams involved are:

Bernardo Alves (BRA)/Chupa Chup
Christian Ahlmann (GER)/Cöster
Denis Lynch (IRL)/Latinus
Tony Andre Hansen (NOR)/Camiro

Courtney King-Dye’s Harmony Mythilus Tests Positive For Banned Substance
It was quite a shocker to hear that Courtney King-Dye’s Olympic mount tested positive for Felbinac, which is usually applied topically for the relief of local pain and inflammation. The FEI held off on making a public announcement until after the results of the test B sample were in.

After reading the article on Equisearch, I’m pretty convinced that it was an accident.

Mythilus was treated in the equine clinic at Sha Tin when he arrived for artrial fibrillation as a result of stress from his trip. He was attended by their doctors as well as the USEF Veterinarian Dr. Rick Mitchell. Neither Dr. Mitchell or Courtney had ever even heard of the drug in question, and it is not manufactured or sold in the United States.

King-Dye and Dr. Mitchell believe that during treatment at the clinic, he may have come in contact with Felbinac. In discussion with King-Dye, USEF vets, grooms and physical therapists, no other explanation or conclusion was able to be drawn.

“Neither I nor my vets had ever heard of the drug Felbinac until we got the call about Myth’s positive test,” said King-Dye. “We were stunned and baffled. We spent the entire day doing Internet research on the uses for this drug and how it could possibly have gotten into my horse’s system. As far as we could find it is not even manufactured, approved or available in the U.S. My horse has had no soundness problems whatsoever, and I would have no need for an anti-inflammatory. Anyone who knows me knows wholeheartedly that I would never dope my horse intentionally. It is cheating; it is not putting your best against the other’s best. I have never been in a more torturous and frustrating situation; trying to prove innocence is very hard. It saddens me beyond description that my whole reputation could be blackened because of this situation.”

The FEI Tribunal stated in their preliminary decision that “there are circumstances in this case that makes it difficult to clear out how the prohibited substance entered into the horse’s system.”

“The USEF stands behind the FEI’s initiatives to rid the sport of doping and to protect the welfare of our horses. We are equally supportive of Courtney in this situation as this substance was unknown to any of us until a few days ago,” said USEF CEO John Long. “It seems clear that Mythilus came into contact with it without Courtney’s or Dr. Mitchell’s knowledge.”

Pat
Aug. 29, 2008, 11:05 PM
With all due respect, when only incomplete or no reliable information is available, people should refrain from making snap judgments and allow the investigation and hearing procedures to run their course (and maintain an open mind that perhaps it is just as likely that there is an innocent explanation or a testing error as a not-so-innocent explanation). There is a reason that defamation, libel, and slander are actionable. People can do enormous damage by spreading falsehoods, and often the damage cannot be undone just by virtue of the true and full story coming out. Over time, people remember tend to remember the "smoke," but often cannot recall if there was fire or not at the end of the day. Case in point: some people cannot recall the FEI's findings with regard to Ludger Beerbaum, who was in fact cleared of any intentional wrongdoing.

With respect to micro-managing, I would like to know what you suggest that anyone on CKD's team should have done differently.

WTF! I didn't drop a house on your sister, so why don't you just lay off. m'kay?

The lack of complete information doesn't seem to stop you from clicking keys, so dear god, please get off that high horse before you have an accident.

What, then, nobody is entitled to opinions based on the facts available???
Really, wow. Somebody forgot to send me that memo.

So, wait, I see. You still have your panties in a twist from the other day when you got all manner of paranoid and decided that I was accusing you of being a horse drugging cheater. :confused: God, it must really suck to be that paranoid. Any way, so now you think it's cool to accuse me of libel. That's niiiice. Really grown up of ya. :no:

Since I wasn't there, I can't tell you what went wrong, or who did what. SO NO, miss crotchety, I don't have any specific advice to CKD's team. Nor did I direct that OPINION towards CKD specifically. Man, you need to stop reading things between lines, as those 'things' just aren't there.

ceffyl
Aug. 30, 2008, 06:32 AM
Is this by Rx only? It does not seem to be sold in the US as an OTC. Great Britain seems to be the only information center with a Google search.

It is Presc only in the UK. But also available in Canada...and you can buy it online easily.

You can also purchase it in most Western European countries, Germany, Belgium, Italy, etc. Not always precription only.

Sumilu Stick / Sumilu tape in Asia (Japan company I think makes it) for anti-inflammatory use, this contains Felbinac. And Seltouch a plaster with felbinac for transdermal anti-inflammatory use, also made in Japan in partnership with Wyeth (who incidentaly are part of Fort Dodge)

Felbinac is also in preparations in Australia and New Zealand - and I thought at some point it was a substance in a laminitis preparation (but it may not be available anymore).

Having spoken to and worked with for many years a vet with the British Olympic team. He said that always the veterinarian teams in the host country are FULLY conversed with FEI / IOC / WADA banned substances. They are tightly screened, and IF they had to for DIAGNOSTIC or pre-comp TREATMENT use a banned substance then the correct procedure would be followed PRE-COMPETITION for treatment exemption clause to allow substance use.

And if it was to be present as a coupling agent in ultrasound gel it is NORMALLY there for TREATMENT (i.e to reduce inflammation). For osteo-arthritic conditions, or sprains / strains.

This is from a vet who also is fully conversant with USEF / FDA banned substances. As a team vet who travels worldwide he says any team vet from any country it is their business to familiarise themselves with medications approved for use elsewhere that may NOT be in your own region. Even if it means obtaining a copy of the veterinary medication codex for that region.

Also he is amazed and completely baffled at why on earth the powers to be (vets, team leader), rider, and anyone with the horse did NOT question and check what was being used on their horse. Did they just drop the horse off at the door and leave it? I did read that there was a tream vet in attendance - was the rider too, she should have been.

Not pointing any blame. My horses in a vet clinic as an owner pre any competition including FEI events at any point, even a month before I am present to question every little thing from the procedure, applications used during diagnostics, etc. Including even the dressings as some contain banned substances - for example capsaicin as an anti-chew agent (one brand made by Kimberly-Clark corporation).

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 06:55 AM
Pat, go for the decaf next time.

There wasn't anything that personal said. I appreciate the legal perspective, I think YL actually is a lawyer. While the law is very specialized, most lawyers can comment on the extremely common confusions surrounding fraud, civil cases, and other terminology, etc. This stuff is very basic.

cefyl, have you competed in another country in FEI competitions, like China? There might be complications in trying to communicate with all the staff at a vet clinic in Hong Kong. While I understand a great many people in Hong Kong speak English very well, communicating about medical/medication issues might not always go perfectly. I think it's also possible that CKD people made every effort to ask questions and get information, and given the urgent nature of the situation, something wasn't communicated fully, with no malice or bad intentions on either side.

If I understood the news correctly, I have some doubt as to where Mythilus was treated, and by what vet. I didn't quite get where that was done, or exactly when.

The thing that is puzzling is that there was some time between when the horses arrived and when they competed or were tested, and I don't think anyone here has really reconstructed that time line in detail.

I'd have to understand when the medication could have been given based on the amount found in the test, expected dose, half life of the medication, etc. THose questions really are for someone who is very familiar with the pharmacology of the medication and what would affect how quickly it would clear the system, and if any of those factors that might affect its clearing time, were actually present. And as far as I know, no one here is familiar enough with the detailed pharmacology of this particular medication specifically, or the very specific conditions around, during and after Mythilus' treatment, to make any statements about that.

Given the information we have - and I read the news releases many times - we don't have much real information about what happened in enough detail to make any assumptions at all.

Felbenac is put in ultrasound gel only as additional therapy. It is not a normal part of ultrasound gel. Because it is available as a 'gel' means it could be mixed with ultrasound gel easily, not that it was. We are assuming way, way too many things in these discussions. We are assuming the horse got an ultrasound, first of all.

Unfortunately, I am very sure that it will remain that way. None of us are likely to ever know what really happened, even CKD may not ever find out exactly. The news published by the FEI and USEF is not likely to include all of the discussions or investigation that was a part of the decision making process.

The bottom line though, is harsh, I think a lot harsher than anyone here would like it to be for CKD.

In the end intent, good character, popularity and "I don't know how this happened" just doesn't count for a lot.

passagedreamer
Aug. 30, 2008, 07:32 AM
Sorry, I missed a few posts, but do they know the duration of time the drug lasts on the skin ??? And if applied more than one day in a row, how much longer does it make the duration time ???
If the horse was released from the clinic on the 2nd of August and the blood test was taken ??? That could hopefully (or not ) benefit her side ???
And one other question, does this mean that the US team is now placed dead last in the Team Comp ???? Glad WEG is being hosted here in the US ;)

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 07:55 AM
"is the US now dead last"

No placings have been changed yet. They have to review it, something will be stated in Sept and end of Oct.

passagedreamer
Aug. 30, 2008, 08:25 AM
Thanks slc2!!

Just thought the rules stated that all scored are withdrawn..... ??:(

Equibrit
Aug. 30, 2008, 08:26 AM
Glad WEG is being hosted here in the US ;)


You'll still have the FEI.

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 30, 2008, 08:30 AM
WTF! I didn't drop a house on your sister, so why don't you just lay off. m'kay?

The lack of complete information doesn't seem to stop you from clicking keys, so dear god, please get off that high horse before you have an accident.

What, then, nobody is entitled to opinions based on the facts available???
Really, wow. Somebody forgot to send me that memo.

So, wait, I see. You still have your panties in a twist from the other day when you got all manner of paranoid and decided that I was accusing you of being a horse drugging cheater. :confused: God, it must really suck to be that paranoid. Any way, so now you think it's cool to accuse me of libel. That's niiiice. Really grown up of ya. :no:

Since I wasn't there, I can't tell you what went wrong, or who did what. SO NO, miss crotchety, I don't have any specific advice to CKD's team. Nor did I direct that OPINION towards CKD specifically. Man, you need to stop reading things between lines, as those 'things' just aren't there.



Both your attitude and your language are offensive.

Please take them elsewhere.

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 08:37 AM
Passagedreamer, IF CKD's scores were tossed, we would not be IN the team competition. We would only have two scores. But as yet, nothing has been announced. We have to just wait.

if the FEI can review this and find a specific mistake that was made during emergency treatment of Mythilus that CKD and other persons responsible were not informed of, it may affect how this is handled.

If the amount was a trace amount that could not have affected the horse's performance, that might wind up being a part of the decision making process.

But the fact is that the horse competed with some amount of potentially performance altering medication in him and that could have affected his score. It isn't necessary that it DID affect his score, all that's necessary is that the potential is there.

There are any number of people who would scream foul and cheating if that is not dealt with in some way. Someone will claim Mythilus would not have scored as well if he had not had felbenac in his system, whether administered intentionally or not, that's a fact that's unavoidable. It's a problem.

I am not at ALL sure that the INTENT matters as much as the fact that the medication was present.

I think the issue of whether the medication was sufficient to affect his score is more important, but I will wait to see what the FEI says.

freestyle2music
Aug. 30, 2008, 09:36 AM
After going through most of the courtcases/hearings concerning this subject (specially the FEI and the Tour de France cases), we see that these "courts" are very often tending to "the drug was there, and it was your responsibility" <period> . Furthermore I don't think that the HongKong Jockey Club Clinic will ever admit that they might be the cause of the fact that this substance was found inside Mythilus. But there is one thing that I do know, we will never know exactly how it went. :no:

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2008, 09:47 AM
Passagedreamer, IF CKD's scores were tossed, we would not be IN the team competition. We would only have two scores. But as yet, nothing has been announced. We have to just wait.

if the FEI can review this and find a specific mistake that was made during emergency treatment of Mythilus that CKD and other persons responsible were not informed of, it may affect how this is handled.

If the amount was a trace amount that could not have affected the horse's performance, that might wind up being a part of the decision making process.

But the fact is that the horse competed with some amount of potentially performance altering medication in him and that could have affected his score. It isn't necessary that it DID affect his score, all that's necessary is that the potential is there.

There are any number of people who would scream foul and cheating if that is not dealt with in some way. Someone will claim Mythilus would not have scored as well if he had not had felbenac in his system, whether administered intentionally or not, that's a fact that's unavoidable. It's a problem.

I am not at ALL sure that the INTENT matters as much as the fact that the medication was present.

I think the issue of whether the medication was sufficient to affect his score is more important, but I will wait to see what the FEI says.

This pretty much sums it up. A big issue is that the FEI rules impose a type of strict liability, meaning that intent is not considered in determining whether a violation of the rules has occurred. A positive test result would thus typically mean there will be a finding of a violation of the rules. If, however, it turns out that the test was wrong -- because of an error in the testing procedure, contamination, or something like that -- and that could be demonstrated to the hearing panel, then there should not be a finding of a violation.

Where intent and other factors become very important is in determining what sanctions to impose. The FEI rules allow for consideration of these factors to lower or even eliminate sanctions for the competitor. Based on the dozen or so FEI decisions I looked at this week, it appears they take such mitigating factors seriously. For example, if the panel finds that the use of the medication was inadvertent, they might change the competition results but state that they found the competitor did not intend to use a banned substance in violation of the rules, and might not impose any additional penalty. If the circumstances surrounding the positive result are sufficiently compelling, conceivably they might not impose any sanction at all (and note that competitors may appeal an adverse ruling to the Court of Arbitration for Sport ("CAS"), which, unlike the FEI, handles cases involving all kinds of sports, not just equestrian disciplines).

Some people have queried how it is possible that CKD's team and all attending vets did not keep track of everything given to the horse. They may very well have done so. It is entirely possible that the drug was never knowingly given to the horse, but rather came into contact with him for example through inadvertent transfer (e.g., from a residue left on equipment, on someone's hands, in a stall, etc), an error at the clinic (someone grabbed the wrong med, which happens in human hospitals more frequently than anyone would like), or a manufacturing error. It is also possible that there was sample or lab contamination, among other things. None of these would be instances of "use" that would (or could) be included in the record of all substances administered to the horse during treatment.

I have expressed my concerns about the FEI policies and the drafting of these rules a number of times, and in my view, it was only a matter of time before an innocent person -- whom people like and respect -- would get ensnared by them under sympathetic circumstances. This might be that case.

I think one positive development, though, is that as a result of this, people have spent a good bit of time discussing and thinking through the issues raised and the possible explanations, and have been open-minded and willing to consider pending the outcome of the hearing process that perhaps the competitor either did not violate the rules at all or only inadvertently did so. Many of my posts, on this and other subjects, are simply intended to encourage people to look at both sides of a story, and to consider different factors that are material. I am saddened that it is CKD that ended up being in a position to highlight some of the concerns that I and others have expressed but I am confident that she will overcome this regardless of the outcome of the hearing process.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2008, 09:56 AM
After going through most of the courtcases/hearings concerning this subject (specially the FEI and the Tour de France cases), we see that these "courts" are very often tending to "the drug was there, and it was your responsibility" <period> .

That is because the rules are drafted to impose a type of strict liability, meaning that no finding of intent is required to conclude a violation has occurred, so an unrebutted positive sample finding usually would result in a finding of a violation. They can and do however consider intent and other factors in determining whether a sanction (penalty) is appropriate, and if so, how severe that sanction should be.

A real obstacle is the accelerated nature of the proceedings. The hearing is next week. That does not provide much time to gather facts and prepare a response, particularly if the person responding does not have experience in handling these types of issues (which presumably would be the case for most competitors).

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 10:02 AM
Theo, i thought the Hong Kong jockey club did NOT treat the horse for fib. I thought he was treated at the airport or near to it, by someone else. Please correct me, anyone, if you can find proof the treatment was given at the HKJC by their vets.

The ONLY action that has been taken so far is a provisional suspension of CDK. So that she can't undertake in any professional activities until the findings are complete and a ruling has been made. That's going to hurt. I'm sure she was planning on being very busy this fall. :no:

The problem with not using a policy of 'strict liability' is that it favors people who are actually cheating. All they have to do is make up some BS about how they didn't know and someone else did it. I prefer strict liability, even though it puts a huge burden on those not trying to cheat and is at times, unfair.

I'm going to really guess from a very inexperienced position, but I am going to guess that CKD's score will be taken down, and we will not have a team placing, and that any other punishments will be minor. That's my guess, but I ain't bettin' anything on it!

My thinking is that with the strict liability, the FEI has no choice other than to take her score down. Otherwise it sends out the message that the drug policy is weak. It additionally opens up the ruling to protests - SOMEONE will protest like mad if nothing at all is done.

I don't think the capcaisin results will be dealt with the same way, though.;)

Felbenac, by the way, is NOT a 'topical painkiller' or some sort of soothing salve for surface pain - that is a gross minimization of what it does. It is a very powerful therapeutic anti-inflammatory product used for internal conditions such as inflammation of soft structures or arthritis. 'Topical' does not indicate its like BenGay or anything similar. It is only that it can be applied close to the injury and goes more specifically to the injury.

We all love Courtney King-Dye and admire her young success; I personally am stunned by how quickly she brought herself along and how well she conducts herself publicly. But let us not allow that to color the facts of the situation, what her intent or knowledge was has very little to do with whether this process kicks into motion or not.

I feel the FEI is not the 'evil empire' here. The drug policy is a strict liability and they have no choice but to enforce the rules tthey have.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2008, 10:20 AM
The ONLY action that has been taken so far is a provisional suspension of CDK. So that she can't undertake in any professional activities until the findings are complete and a ruling has been made. That's going to hurt. I'm sure she was planning on being very busy this fall. :no:

The problem with not using a policy of 'strict liability' is that it favors people who are actually cheating. All they have to do is make up some BS about how they didn't know and someone else did it. I prefer strict liability, even though it puts a huge burden on those not trying to cheat and is at times, unfair.

I'm going to really guess from a very inexperienced position, but I am going to guess that CKD's score will be taken down, and we will not have a team placing, and that any other punishments will be minor. That's my guess, but I ain't bettin' anything on it!

My thinking is that with the strict liability, the FEI has no choice other than to take her score down. Otherwise it sends a message to everyone trying to take advantage of the drug restrictions, that they are free to do as they please.

I don't think the capcaisin results will be dealt with the same way, though.;)

Correct re the provisional suspension. That was a decision reportedly made by a one-person FEI hearing "panel" on the evening of the date the A sample results came out. It appears that that decision is pretty much automatic when confronted with a positive test result -- it is provisional because they are in a sense in a holding pattern until a full hearing can be conducted and does not indicate one way or the other whether the FEI will ultimately conclude a sanction is warranted.

Re strict liability: I don't have a problem with that for the reasons you cited, but I think that some of the FEI policies and rules (e.g., zero tolerance combined with some vague and overbroad drafting of regulations) have real potential for arbitrary and unfair application, and the consequences of these shortcomings are particularly severe when coupled with a strict liability standard, which in some respects effectively ties the hands of the hearing panels (I also probably have greater faith that hearing processes can suss out what's what and not be duped by competitors, but I get that the FEI is not primarily in the adjudication business). Note that here I am speaking generally about the FEI, not about CKD's situation in particular (e.g., drafting issues are more squarely raised by the capsaicin cases).

Re potential outcome: suffice it to say I don't think your assessment is unreasonable ;). This case might present some extraordinary circumstances warranting an extraordinary determination, but your prediction is consistent with a number of FEI opinions I have seen.
And I agree that this situation is distinct from the capsaicin cases, though I still maintain that those competitors have some good arguments available to them, notwithstanding the high burden the FEI rules impose.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2008, 10:25 AM
Theo, i thought the Hong Kong jockey club did NOT treat the horse for fib. I thought he was treated at the airport or near to it, by someone else. Please correct me, anyone, if you can find proof the treatment was given at the HKJC by their vets.
.

I believe Theo might be referring to the possibility of sample or lab contamination, or incorrect testing procedure, which is where an error by the HKJC would come into play. Separate from that, there is also the possibility that an error was made at the clinic.

ridenslide
Aug. 30, 2008, 10:25 AM
The USET, as well as the CET, and I am sure most countries have very good lawyers at their disposal.

My husband used to compete at the FEI,WC, level. He qualified and was asked to go to the Olympics, but declined as his horse was too inexperienced.He did not want to make a fool of himself.:D
:D

If that horse was left unattended for any lengthy period of time, I would be very surprised.:eek:

I compete in reining now & when looking to breed, I look to the stallions that comete in the FEI classes as ones whose offspring I would like to buy & whom I would like to breed to in the future for a reason. No drugs.
We lived it. You cannot imagine the stringent measures that are taken to insure that insure that those FEI horses stay "clean" . Then there are those who hear that there are new & improved "nontesting agents", be it pain relief, pain inducing, whatever. The FEI WILL catch cheaters.
Everyone claims they didn't do it.
The dollar bill & cocaine theory, OJ's glove.:mad::no:

Rodney Jenkins lost the WC from a drug test when he rode Playback.
Does anybody even remember that now?
People are forgiven their mistakes and get their lives back.
So do the horses. I helped rehab Playback up in the great white north, that's the only reason I even know that fact. :winkgrin:

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2008, 10:33 AM
Everyone claims they didn't do it.
The dollar bill & cocaine theory, OJ's glove.:mad::no:
:

Well, I am sure some people "didn't do it."

ceffyl
Aug. 30, 2008, 11:03 AM
[QUOTE=slc2;3484769]Pat, go for the decaf next time.

cefyl, have you competed in another country in FEI competitions, like China? There might be complications in trying to communicate with all the staff at a vet clinic in Hong Kong. While I understand a great many people in Hong Kong speak English very well, communicating about medical/medication issues might not always go perfectly. I think it's also possible that CKD people made every effort to ask questions and get information, and given the urgent nature of the situation, something wasn't communicated fully, with no malice or bad intentions on either side.
QUOTE]

Yes I have competed in "other" countries. USA / UK / Ireland / Europe / Scandinavia / Asia.

Remember until 1997 Hong Kong was a British territory. I have many friends there in business - equine / financial / educational. English is the first language of use in their fields. My mother also lived there for a time.

The Hong Kong official languages are Cantonese and English.

I think it is an insult to the Hong Kong veterinarians, particularly Dr Chris Riggs BVSc, PhD, DEO, DipECVS, MRCVS, the Olympic Veterinary Services Manager at Sha Tin to assume their grasp of English is less than acceptable. All pharmaceuticals have a, INN / rINN / pINN as designated by the WHO so that there is a universal language understood by all medical practitioners wherever.

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 11:08 AM
It's not an insult, go for decaf. It's a different country, with different brand names for medications, and different protocols. Even the best vets make mistakes even just dealing with pharmaceuticals in their own country.

And ah, sorry, but you can't convince me that in Hong Kong, people never make mistakes, or that there never has been 1 misunderstanding in Hong Kong when speaking with someone not from Hong Kong. That's absurd.

In all your extensive experience that you listed with competing in FEI competitions in other countries, you may have seen that pharmaceuticals are named different things in different countries and mistakes can happen.

sascha
Aug. 30, 2008, 11:27 AM
From my very distant outside of any loop at all viewpoint, this is yet another big black smear on the US dressage team's image. First, the lame Brentina, now Mythilus competing in wretched conditions (heat, humidity, pollution) after being treated for a heart condition. Imo, and remember, it's my opinion only, someone or some group of people responsible for the team does NOT have the horses' best interests at heart.

I'm betting the positive drug test is an unfortunate and accidental bi-product of a bigger problem - competing yet another horse that quite possibly should not have been competing at all.

ceffyl
Aug. 30, 2008, 11:38 AM
It's not an insult, go for decaf. It's a different country, with different brand names for medications, and different protocols. Even the best vets make mistakes even just dealing with pharmaceuticals in their own country.

And ah, sorry, but you can't convince me that in Hong Kong, people never make mistakes, or that there never has been 1 misunderstanding in Hong Kong when speaking with someone not from Hong Kong. That's absurd.

In all your extensive experience that you listed with competing in FEI competitions in other countries, you may have seen that pharmaceuticals are named different things in different countries and mistakes can happen.

http://www.who.int/medicines/services/inn/en/index.html

IF you can be bothered to read the page on the above link you will see what an INN is as you clearly have no idea. Put in place by the WHO to PROTECT patients so that a pharmaceutical is called XYZ in EVERY country.

Trade marks / brand names are different. Medical practioners go by the pharmaceutical name. If any vet I used made a mistake in dealing with a pharmaceutical I would report him/her to the RCVS / AVMA, and NEVER use them again. A mistake could cost a life.

I do not drink coffee decaf or otherwise.

One of our business interests is pharmaceuticals and so yes I do know all about INN. My husband is an active shareholder in a family pharmaceutical company in the USA.

And again you did not take in the remark about the Olympic Veterinary Team - their first language is ENGLISH. There is more risk of "lost in translation" in the USA than the Olympic Veterinary Centre at HK. The centre is one of the best equiped in the world, at one of the most modern racetracks in the world - NOT on some little street corner by the Shek Kip Mei Estate.

I never did claim there would not be a misunderstanding in Hong Kong - as a region. Happens anywhere. I was in Houston last month and mentioned to a well educated, travelled, billionaire philanthropist that it would be nice to get back to the cool hills of Wales. He gave me a blank look and said "Honey, I did'nt know there were hills in Wells" - I had to explain the difference between Wales the country and Wells, nr Dallas. And as often happens he still could not grasp Wales in NOT England just as England is NOT GB / the UK. And our US Accountant's office and the IRS insist on sending my taxes addressed to WHALES, ENGLAND. How many times have I written and corrected it to WALES, UK - alot!

MelantheLLC
Aug. 30, 2008, 11:48 AM
The whales, the whales
The whales off Wales
They move like melting mountains...

Heh, a child's poem, that's all I can remember and unfortunately can't recall the poet or turn him/her up on google. :cry:

But I always remembered that lovely stanza; sorry couldn't help sharing. ;)

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2008, 11:49 AM
Guys..I think we all agree that a mistake can happen in any country, at the hands of anyone, regardless of nationality or native language.

ridgeback
Aug. 30, 2008, 11:56 AM
Sabine: If CKD files a HUGE complaint and spends a ton of money defending herself, and all of her efforts come back still positive, her penlty will be MUCH worse. Pay the fine, take the suspension and MOVE ON !!! Take it as a very valuable learning experience. And I am FAR from making light of this issue, BUT if it was me.... that is what I would do.

To me, 2 very SAD things happened for 2 people at this Olympics and both ladies will never forget it.

But I do have one question: IF Myth had such a serious heart condition, why did they allow the horse to compete ??? Isn't that why we take a reserve horse ??? Ok... maybe they said the horse got better, but 9 nose TUBES..... that doesn't sound like something that would go away on it's own so fast.... Just wondering ???? - NOT bitching

It's strange that the heart condition has hardly been an issue on this board. I guess traveling so late from CA to Germany to Hong Kong all within a couple of weeks really was an issue for some horses. I wonder if we would have ever known about this serious heart condition or if there were any other serious issues with other horses?

ceffyl
Aug. 30, 2008, 12:21 PM
The whales, the whales
The whales off Wales
They move like melting mountains...

Heh, a child's poem, that's all I can remember and unfortunately can't recall the poet or turn him/her up on google. :cry:

But I always remembered that lovely stanza; sorry couldn't help sharing. ;)

NICE!!!

ceffyl
Aug. 30, 2008, 12:33 PM
It's strange that the heart condition has hardly been an issue on this board. I guess traveling so late from CA to Germany to Hong Kong all within a couple of weeks really was an issue for some horses. I wonder if we would have ever known about this serious heart condition or if there were any other serious issues with other horses?

If horses / riders stopped off in Germany - Felbinac (as 3% Taxam Gel) is available /used there as a human topical anti-inflammatory.

However Felbinac is clearly labelled as the INN ingredient.

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 03:50 PM
I understand about international labeling, I still think mistakes are possible.

Um, like say, for example, someone says to you, 'Oops, I smeared some felbenac on your horse by mistake', and you say, 'What the hell's felbenac, I never heard of it', and the person says, 'It's for inflammation', and you say, 'Oh, is that all, no problem then'. Or they say, 'By the way, we put felbenac on that ultrasound by accident', and you say, 'No, Thanks anyway, I'm a Baptist'. People misunderstand things. They misunderstand things more in foreign countries, whether the people there speak perfect English or not.

ceffyl
Aug. 30, 2008, 04:39 PM
I understand about international labeling, I still think mistakes are possible.

Um, like say, for example, someone says to you, 'Oops, I smeared some felbenac on your horse by mistake', and you say, 'What the hell's felbenac, I never heard of it', and the person says, 'It's for inflammation', and you say, 'Oh, is that all, no problem then'. Or they say, 'By the way, we put felbenac on that ultrasound by accident', and you say, 'No, Thanks anyway, I'm a Baptist'. People misunderstand things. They misunderstand things more in foreign countries, whether the people there speak perfect English or not.

???????? EHHH ???????? Clearly the voice of someone NOT travelled.

I take it you believe the English cannot understand the Scots, the Scots cannot understand the Welsh and nobody can understand the Irish!!! Wow Aussies and Kiwis may as well talk gibberish to you.

WHY is English the international language of the airways and shipping?

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 05:29 PM
I've traveled extensively, actually, so much for that theory. :lol:

I still maintain: People make more mistakes understanding things 1.) in unfamiliar places, 2.) especially during emergencies, 3.) when tired, 4.) when worried, 5.) when doing something one doesn't usually do.

When traveling to an Olympic games in China, and one's horse starts to have serious heart symptoms, I would say all 5 factors are in place.

"I take it you believe the English cannot understand the Scots, the Scots cannot understand the Welsh and nobody can understand the Irish!!! Wow Aussies and Kiwis may as well talk gibberish to you.

WHY is English the international language of the airways and shipping? "

Anytime you declare what someone else believes, you are likely to be proven wrong. In fact telling someone what they believe is - it's rude. And it would start a fight, with anyone who was more concerned about what you write.

I gather that that what you're suggesting is absurd, and you're suggesting that I believe it, in an effort to make it sound as if what I'm saying is absurd.

What I am saying is that people when traveling and under duress can misunderstand what is said to them. I actually think any reasonable, rational person would agree with that, and that it's a fairly normal thing to suggest.

And no, actually, while English is spoken alot all over the world, and is considered (by some ENGLISH SPEAKERS, when in fact, English ranks a DISTANT FOURTH on the list of most spoken languages in the world, behind Mandarin, Hindi and Spanish) to be a sort of lingua franca of international business and shipping, regardless, being nasty to me, doesn't prove that people go all over the world under all sorts of conditions and never misunderstand anything anyone says to them.

I think it's absurd to even attempt to suggest that people travel everywhere, listen to all sorts of different terms, slang and usage of English from english speakers all over the world, and never miss a single word.

ceffyl
Aug. 30, 2008, 06:06 PM
I've traveled extensively, actually, so much for that theory. :lol:

I still maintain: People make more mistakes understanding things 1.) in unfamiliar places, 2.) especially during emergencies, 3.) when tired, 4.) when worried, 5.) when doing something one doesn't usually do.

When traveling to an Olympic games in China, and one's horse starts to have serious heart symptoms, I would say all 5 factors are in place.

"I take it you believe the English cannot understand the Scots, the Scots cannot understand the Welsh and nobody can understand the Irish!!! Wow Aussies and Kiwis may as well talk gibberish to you.

WHY is English the international language of the airways and shipping? "

Anytime you declare what someone else believes, you are likely to be proven wrong. In fact telling someone what they believe is - it's rude. And it would start a fight, with anyone who was more concerned about what you write.

I gather that that what you're suggesting is absurd, and you're suggesting that I believe it, in an effort to make it sound as if what I'm saying is absurd.

What I am saying is that people when traveling and under duress can misunderstand what is said to them. I actually think any reasonable, rational person would agree with that, and that it's a fairly normal thing to suggest.

And no, actually, while English is spoken alot all over the world, and is considered (by some ENGLISH SPEAKERS, when in fact, English ranks a DISTANT FOURTH on the list of most spoken languages in the world, behind Mandarin, Hindi and Spanish) to be a sort of lingua franca of international business and shipping, regardless, being nasty to me, doesn't prove that people go all over the world under all sorts of conditions and never misunderstand anything anyone says to them.

I think it's absurd to even attempt to suggest that people travel everywhere, listen to all sorts of different terms, slang and usage of English from english speakers all over the world, and never miss a single word.

???????????? EHHHH AGAIN ????????????? Do you have your own "elvish speak"???

As has been mentioned to you on other threads .... READ posts thoroughly BEFORE replying.

I NEVER said or suggested that one travels to foreign climes (blah de blah and so on) that misunderstandings between speakers does NOT occur. In fact the opposite, even within "English" speaking nations I mentioned the disparacies that can arise in American / British conversation.

I DID say however that (to go back to the start) that the OLYMPIC VETERINARY CENTRE in HONG KONG is staffed with ENGLISH (usually as their first language) speaking veterinarians. AND that the WHO enforces the INN system so that the UNIVERSAL PHARMACEUTICAL LANGUAGE IS ONE AND THE SAME IN EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

Emergency - the horse did not go from emergency to competing...there were days between the events.....there was time before the competition to clarify WHAT WAS USED ON the horse.....time to overcome the (as you have imprinted on your grey matter) "language barrier" and FIND OUT.

My equine (in the USA) veterinarian is Scottish. There are times I do not understand his speach...HOWEVER I ask him to repeat his information, and I MAKE DAMN sure I know WHAT HE IS PUTTING ON / IN / IS DOING / HAS DONE / HAS APPLIED OR PRESCRIBED to my horses. And he and many other vets I know WORLDWIDE are not too proud thank goodness for the sake of the animals to always have at hand and look up information in a pharmaceutical codex if need be.

Glad you have travelled EXTENSIVELY........:rolleyes:

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2008, 06:52 PM
I understand about international labeling, I still think mistakes are possible.


A mistake could have occurred in the vet clinic regardless of any language barrier (not suggesting you hadn't considered it, SLC, but the conversation is focusing so much on whether the vets spoke adequate English that I wanted to point that out). People sometimes misread labels, grab the wrong thing, fail to wash their hands between "patients", any number of things. Someone else mentioned that incident at Cedars Sinai with Dennis Quaid's children -- an unthinkable error, one would suppose, yet in that case the use of the wrong version of the drug (at 1000 times the dosage the babies were supposed to have gotten) was due in part to confusing labeling. The pharmaceutical manufacturer could have made an error. There are a lot of possible ways the horse could have come into contact with the med inadvertently.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2008, 06:53 PM
WHY is English the international language of the airways and shipping?

Pssst...French is the international language of diplomacy ;).

Pat
Aug. 30, 2008, 11:15 PM
[quote=ceffyl;3485500I take it you believe the English cannot understand the Scots, the Scots cannot understand the Welsh and nobody can understand the Irish!!! Wow Aussies and Kiwis may as well talk gibberish to you.[/quote]

Uh, well......

I've had English roommates/coworkers. Once I remember one getting a 'visit' from home (awfully hunky visit) Any way, while in thier presence I made a request for a item for an impending KFC run. I asked for a couple of biscuits. For the life of them those two lads couldn't understand why I wanted biscuits from KFC. Untill they arrived and they discovered that biscuits were the things you put butter or gravy on, not sweets.

And that was over something benign.

Of course there can be misunderstandings between two "English" speaking people.

Personally, I understand the Irish just fine, it's the Gypsies I just blink and stare at. :lol:

ceffyl
Aug. 30, 2008, 11:35 PM
Pssst...French is the international language of diplomacy ;).

Les Americains avons change tout cela! :winkgrin:

Maybe the PAET list the FEI provided to ALL teams / competitors well before that listed specifically as one of the substances FELBINAC --- should have been in French. Now I know why the team vets, rider, and all connections did not understand it was on the banned substance list. :uhoh:

ceffyl
Aug. 30, 2008, 11:46 PM
Uh, well......

Personally, I understand the Irish just fine, it's the Gypsies I just blink and stare at. :lol:

You mean there are Irish in Ireland....thought it was only Gypsies? ONLY JOKING!!!! No flaming please...love Ireland and the Irish. Make several trips there each year, hospitality at it's finest :D buy I always need a week to recover afterwards.......:lol:

Sabine
Aug. 31, 2008, 12:43 AM
I just LOVE how you grind each other into the ground on another page and make up and kiss on this one-...LOL! this is really good stuff...maybe the olympic flame reignited for a splitsecond and shed a glorious golden halo over all...PEACE!!

and on another note- I love Courtney- she rocks- and she didn't do anything wrong...and our governing bodies still have a lot to learn...including a drug policy that WORKS!! on all continents and in all languages....

Happy Labor Day!!!

Arathita
Aug. 31, 2008, 02:06 AM
I understand about international labeling, I still think mistakes are possible.

Um, like say, for example, someone says to you, 'Oops, I smeared some felbenac on your horse by mistake', and you say, 'What the hell's felbenac, I never heard of it', and the person says, 'It's for inflammation', and you say, 'Oh, is that all, no problem then'. Or they say, 'By the way, we put felbenac on that ultrasound by accident', and you say, 'No, Thanks anyway, I'm a Baptist'. People misunderstand things. They misunderstand things more in foreign countries, whether the people there speak perfect English or not.

This scenario doesn't happen in international competition. The three stooges do not administer to horses at international competitions, competent veterinarians do.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 31, 2008, 02:49 AM
This scenario doesn't happen in international competition. The three stooges do not administer to horses at international competitions, competent veterinarians do.

I would doubt that scenario was meant in the literal sense. Surely you would agree that even competent vets can make a mistake, no?

ceffyl
Aug. 31, 2008, 05:29 AM
I would doubt that scenario was meant in the literal sense. Surely you would agree that even competent vets can make a mistake, no?

:eek: Are we going to have a "Bettina Hoy" moment : - ""But he was in the veterinary clinic in the clothes of a veterinary representative and he came when summoned by the receptionist".

slc2
Aug. 31, 2008, 07:12 AM
In fact, people make mistakes all the time. Everywhere. And if a couple people make a tiny mistake in the same vicinity, it can exponentially increase their effect.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 31, 2008, 11:25 AM
:eek: Are we going to have a "Bettina Hoy" moment : - ""But he was in the veterinary clinic in the clothes of a veterinary representative and he came when summoned by the receptionist".

Maybe we will have a Cedars Sinai moment -- you know, the case where, despite the fact it is reputed to be a world class hospital, they nearly killed newborn twins by mistakenly administering a blood thinner at 1000 times the dosage they were supposed to have given because someone failed to distinguish between two similar labels on the two different versions of the same drug.

Mistakes can happen anywhere. On my farm, we are very, very careful about how we treat horses and handle medications. Recently, some regumate leaked from its container, unbeknownst to anyone, and soaked part of a manilla envelope that was resting on my countertop next to the sink. When I saw it, I thought it was just water, and ended up with regumate all over my hands when I picked the envelope up to move it out of the way. And yes, I did have a conversation with the person who was handling the regumate about being more careful, and ordinarily she is meticulous about everything. But when we looked at the bottle, we found it was leaking, and she had not realized that. Mistakes *happen.*

ceffyl
Aug. 31, 2008, 11:40 AM
Sure mistakes happen. The main mystery to me is why it took all day on the internet to find out what Felbinac is and what a NSAID does....they had one of the best veterinary clinics in the world there, and one of the top testing labs. A simple excuse me what is???? would have worked. Particularly if the question came from one of the team vets.

slc2
Aug. 31, 2008, 11:54 AM
you are totally twisting the statement. she said they spent a day researching how the horse could have gotten it into his system, and a bunch of other issues.

the usual nonsense on the internet that one first finds says, 'it's an nsaid' and little else that would allow one to figure out how the horse got it. doing any decent research would take all day, such as reviewing a variety of different drug cases on the usef, fei records, emailing some vets to ask questions and waiting for response, researching the information on defibrillation and every other item on the paperwork for the horse's treatment, recontacting the vets who did the treatment, etc. it would take quite a few hours to research.

Spoilsport
Aug. 31, 2008, 11:56 AM
Sure mistakes happen. The main mystery to me is why it took all day on the internet to find out what Felbinac is and what a NSAID does....

Why bother responding? YankeeLawyer - who, amazingly lives and breathes high-profile law, has a stable of international-caliber horses, and spends more time on this board than anyone except SLC2 :eek: - is clearly super human. And has an answer for everything. So what if she distorts what others say to make her point?

ceffyl
Aug. 31, 2008, 12:11 PM
Why bother responding? YankeeLawyer - who, amazingly lives and breathes high-profile law, has a stable of international-caliber horses, and spends more time on this board than anyone except SLC2 :eek: - is clearly super human. And has an answer for everything. So what if she distorts what others say to make her point?

:uhoh:Ohh I just love winding people like that up.....:D Thanks Spoilsport!

ceffyl
Aug. 31, 2008, 12:38 PM
you are totally twisting the statement. she said they spent a day researching how the horse could have gotten it into his system, and a bunch of other issues.

the usual nonsense on the internet that one first finds says, 'it's an nsaid' and little else that would allow one to figure out how the horse got it. doing any decent research would take all day, such as reviewing a variety of different drug cases on the usef, fei records, emailing some vets to ask questions and waiting for response, researching the information on defibrillation and every other item on the paperwork for the horse's treatment, recontacting the vets who did the treatment, etc. it would take quite a few hours to research.

Off CKD web site “Neither I nor my vets had ever heard of the drug Felbinac until we got the call about Myth's positive test,” said King-Dye. “We were stunned and baffled. We spent the entire day doing internet research on the uses for this drug

It is only found in a handful of products of which Goldsheild and Taisho are the 2 main manufacturers of the brands. The other use which the world and his mother has managed to Google is as a coupling agent in ultrasound gel.

Quite frankly do you honestly think that all the money behind the USEF veterinary team, their collective qualifications, access to any pharmaceutical codex their little hearts so desire, all the pride and honour at stake that they would spend time on the internet??? Or let me rephrase that "should they have spent it" on the internet? No one thought to pick up a phone and ask an expert? No one thought to ask Sha Tin veterinary centre?

When I have a question about any pharmaceutical - human, canine, equine that is not covered in one of the codex I have to hand...I contact the pharmaceutical company concerned. I do not spend a day trawling Google hoping to find the magic spell, off some site name www.felbinac.com that is set up by some bored geek in a basement appartment (sorry no offence intended those bored geeks out there!) And to clarify options and trains of thought I would discuss with other veterinary and pharmeceutical experts who have knowledge of the substance. I can think of all matter of pharmaceutical substances we have in various fields of research at present but I choose to speak to the experts.

TTFN

Pat
Aug. 31, 2008, 01:45 PM
Why bother responding? YankeeLawyer - who, amazingly lives and breathes high-profile law, has a stable of international-caliber horses, and spends more time on this board than anyone except SLC2 :eek: - is clearly super human. And has an answer for everything. So what if she distorts what others say to make her point?


well, I was starting to think I was the only one.....

FirstPost
Aug. 31, 2008, 04:11 PM
I am new to posting, and have also posted the below on the USEF reaction thread, and hope it's appropriate and non-redundant to post here as well.

I know, from Courtney directly, more about the matter than has been released. Courtney is not allowed to comment publically about a pending case, but I hope passing on the below will not violate anyones privacy, but instead will calm the waters a little.

When Courtney and the team arrived in Hong Kong, all the horses were in good health. They had a day off, then were all tack walked the second day. Myth didn't feel right to Courtney. The team vet, Dr. Mitchell did an extremely thorough exam, and he found that the horse was in atrial fibrillation. His heart beat was erratic. Dr. Mitchell went directly to the Veterinary Commission to consult with their professionals. Several ECG's were performed, and his heart was ultrasounded. Dr. Mitchell and the Vet Commission recommended that Mythilus be given a drug called Quinnidine in order to convert his heart back to a regular rhythm. It is given through a stomach tube every 4 hours, and has about a 60% success rate. Myth was taken to the clinic 9 times and was intubated through his nostril and down his throat to give him this medicine. They stopped at 9 doses. All of the drugs were known and approved prior to treatment. None were labeled with any banned substances. After Courtney began to ride Myth (with veterinary permission) he got better with work instead of struggling. While the reserve rider was standing by ready to ride an hour before the first GP test, it was determined Myth (and by the way, Brentina and Ravel as well) were fully fit to perform. Myth and Courtney, as we all know, did a fantastic job. No one, Courtney especially would have permitted the horse to perform if there were any chance of his test compromising his health.

When the news came there was Felbinac in Myth's sample, all of the US vets and USEF people were stymied, and had to do (much as the folks on this thread have done) internet research trying to figure what Felbinac was, and they discovered it's a topical anti inflammatory mostly used on humans... not, as far as they could find, manufactured, approved, or available anywhere in the US. It's not as suprising as you might think that US vets might not know about a non-equine med not in use in America, any more than it would be surpising if your top notch pediatrician would be surprised and puzzled by Bute showing up in a child's test.

Courtney has said that EVERYONE has been incredibly supportive and doing their best to find out how this has happened. The USEF and USOC know clearly that this is a mystery to be solved, since there is no obvious way Felbinac could have come in contact with the horse. Courtney further points out that there would be no benefit to her using an NSAID since Myth has no history of any lameness issues that would benefit from such medication.

I've never posted on this board before, but felt we could do with a little more information. I am very touched at how may people trust and support Courtney. IT IS FULLY MERITED. Let's hang tight and see what the outcome is. Rest assured, no one involved thinks there was any intentional wrongdoing. Everyone followed all rules and procedures. I hope truth will out, and if there's any positive outcome from this mess, it will result in a more realistic doping policy.

grayarabs
Aug. 31, 2008, 05:15 PM
FirstPost: Thanks. I am one of the many that support Courtney et al - that she was in no way involved - hope the mystery is solved - and that this is the turning point in regards to drug testing.

ceffyl
Aug. 31, 2008, 05:45 PM
[QUOTE=FirstPost;3487163]


When the news came there was Felbinac in Myth's sample, all of the US vets and USEF people were stymied, and had to do (much as the folks on this thread have done) internet research trying to figure what Felbinac was, and they discovered it's a topical anti inflammatory mostly used on humans... not, as far as they could find, manufactured, approved, or available anywhere in the US.

Courtney further points out that there would be no benefit to her using an NSAID since Myth has no history of any lameness issues that would benefit from such medication. QUOTE]

1) available anywhere in the US. However you can buy it in Canada and order it online via Canadian web sites. Also the horses had a stoppover in Europe where it is available, (eventers in the UK where it is also). Widely available in Asia and Australasia both as a gel and as Sumilu a felbinac containing medical tape.

2) Myth has no history of any lameness issues that would benefit from such medication. http://www.dressagedaily.com/2008/dd_200806/dd_20080619-fest-king-dye.html

3) figure what Felbinac was, and they discovered it's a topical anti inflammatory mostly used on humans As it was on the PAET list before hand did they not find out what the heck it was if they had never heard of it for their own sake? Also it is well known through the highly publicised 2005 FEI case http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:QrRVDfMJQLQJ:www.efanational.com/site/equestrian/national/downloads/content/attachments/news/judicial/50608_FEI_Decision_Mr_Innocent_Tim%2520Amitrano.pd f+FEI+felbinac+2005&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk

No finger pointing. Just facts.

FirstPost
Aug. 31, 2008, 06:05 PM
[QUOTE=FirstPost;3487163]


When the news came there was Felbinac in Myth's sample, all of the US vets and USEF people were stymied, and had to do (much as the folks on this thread have done) internet research trying to figure what Felbinac was, and they discovered it's a topical anti inflammatory mostly used on humans... not, as far as they could find, manufactured, approved, or available anywhere in the US.

Courtney further points out that there would be no benefit to her using an NSAID since Myth has no history of any lameness issues that would benefit from such medication. QUOTE]

1) available anywhere in the US. However you can buy it in Canada and order it online via Canadian web sites. Also the horses had a stoppover in Europe where it is available, (eventers in the UK where it is also). Widely available in Asia and Australasia both as a gel and as Sumilu a felbinac containing medical tape.

2) Myth has no history of any lameness issues that would benefit from such medication. http://www.dressagedaily.com/2008/dd_200806/dd_20080619-fest-king-dye.html

3) figure what Felbinac was, and they discovered it's a topical anti inflammatory mostly used on humans As it was on the PAET list before hand did they not find out what the heck it was if they had never heard of it for their own sake? Also it is well known through the highly publicised 2005 FEI case http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:QrRVDfMJQLQJ:www.efanational.com/site/equestrian/national/downloads/content/attachments/news/judicial/50608_FEI_Decision_Mr_Innocent_Tim%2520Amitrano.pd f+FEI+felbinac+2005&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk

No finger pointing. Just facts.

Hi there,

This will be my last post because I don't think I'll be very good at this :) I think you're missing the point, which is not one of possibility (we agree Myth tested positive) but of intent, which is unlikely.

No one is saying that Felbinac could not have been obtained if someone wanted to.
What is asserted is that, given that no team members knew about it, and it's unlikely anyone in Hong Kong would have deliberately given the drug, it's an unlikely Myth was medicated on purpose.

When Courtney says Myth has no history of lameness, that's true, in spite of his shoe pinching problem. I could say the same about myself, but still have a one-time problem from ill-fitting shoes. I don't think I would turn to heavy drugs to solve. :)

Yes, Felbinac is on the list. But nothing Myth was given was supposed to contain it.

Again, I would sit tight and wait for the results of the tribunal. There's no need or point to rush to conclusions.

I've got my fingers and toes crossed that true justice will be served. Bye now...

ceffyl
Aug. 31, 2008, 07:01 PM
[QUOTE=ceffyl;3487308]

Hi there,

This will be my last post because I don't think I'll be very good at this :) I think you're missing the point, which is not one of possibility (we agree Myth tested positive) but of intent, which is unlikely.

No one is saying that Felbinac could not have been obtained if someone wanted to.
What is asserted is that, given that no team members knew about it, and it's unlikely anyone in Hong Kong would have deliberately given the drug, it's an unlikely Myth was medicated on purpose.

When Courtney says Myth has no history of lameness, that's true, in spite of his shoe pinching problem. I could say the same about myself, but still have a one-time problem from ill-fitting shoes. I don't think I would turn to heavy drugs to solve. :)

Yes, Felbinac is on the list.

Again, I would sit tight and wait for the results of the tribunal. There's no need or point to rush to conclusions.

I've got my fingers and toes crossed that true justice will be served. Bye now...

1) think you're missing the point, which is not one of possibility (we agree Myth tested positive) but of intent, which is unlikely. No I am not missing any point at all, just curious about the many contradictions. Never mentioned possibility or intent.

2) Yes, Felbinac is on the list. So it WAS noted by the team as a banned substance therefore they made surenothing Myth was given was supposed to contain it ? That implies that they did know the name Felbinac as a banned substance beforehand.

3) Again, I would sit tight and wait for the results of the tribunal. There's no need or point to rush to conclusions No pointing or rushing to conclusions here - only perfectly logical observations. You go ahead and sit tight, it may be a long wait.

It is no use whinging about posts. This is a public forum. Everyone is entitled to their opinions / thoughts / comments. Some choose to read everything as an accusation, maybe as their ties to the topic are closer than they like. If we all had the same outlook well there would be no forum - def: The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.

Ipsa scientia potestas est

siegi b.
Aug. 31, 2008, 07:21 PM
ceffyl - just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you're making logical observations........

In your opinion you see "many contradictions" - in my opinion I don't. In your opinion you're a sleuth - in my opinion you're only trying to be a pot stirrer.

I think you should grind your axe someplace else.....

Bogey2
Aug. 31, 2008, 07:25 PM
just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you're making logical observations

ok, I have a new signature line! thanks siegi!:winkgrin:

freestyle2music
Aug. 31, 2008, 07:36 PM
Firstpost :

You say it best when you say nothing at all.

IMHO you only put another woodblock on the fire !

The whole BB-world is googling now for the word Quinnidine, and will read reports that the recovering time for this medicine is 7-10 days etc...etc...etc.....

ridgeback
Aug. 31, 2008, 07:42 PM
Firstpost :

You say it best when you say nothing at all.

IMHO you only put another woodblock on the fire !

The whole BB-world is googling now for the word Quinnidine, and will read reports that the recovering time for this medicine is 7-10 days etc...etc...etc.....

Now look what you've done;)

ridgeback
Aug. 31, 2008, 07:53 PM
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10680

correct spelling Quinidine

"The treatment of choice is a drug called quinidine. Quinidine has to be given with a nasogastric tube every 2 hours throughout the treatment period. This drug can have very toxic effects on horses, such as colic, founder, collapse, swelling around the throat, and abnormal heart rhythms (other than a-fib). For these reasons, we advise that horses only be treated at facilities where they can be monitored continually, preferably with a 24-hour ECG monitor." The Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

Although the article above by the horse in 07 talked about a new treatment..

New Treatment Option

One recent alternative to quinidine is direct current conversion--a twist on the ventricular defibrillators that one sees the fictitious doctors using on television. Developed at the University of Guelph's Veterinary Teaching Hospital by Peter Physick-Sheard, BVSc, MSc, FRCVS, McGurrin, and Dan Kenney, VMD, Dipl. ACVIM, this technique uses catheter-mounted intracardiac electrodes that deliver an electric jolt to the heart. The electrodes are fed down through the jugular vein and directly into the heart while the horse is under anesthesia. Traditional use of defibrillators isn't a feasible option because the size of a horse's chest would require too much current, burning his skin and muscles in the process.

Clearly they couldn't use anesthesia on Courntey's horse.