PDA

View Full Version : Sjef Janssen wanted as a national coach and trainer by almost every country



freestyle2music
Aug. 21, 2008, 08:46 PM
In an official statement today the Royal Dutch Equestrian Federation wrote that they will do everything to keep Sjef Janssen as Trainer and Coach for the Dutch team. The contract that Sjef had with the KNHS ended yesterday.

It's not a secret that almost every important dressage-country wants to hire him as trainer and coach.

Rumours are that it probably will be Russia or the USA, while GB and some other countries are also in the picture.

Sjef stated that he will take a decission within some months.

I will put my money on 1 The Netherlands, 2 Russia , 3 Denmark.

Mike Matson
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:21 PM
Maybe that's why Anky couldn't find him after she won the individual gold medal. "Sjef! Sjef! Where's Sjef?" Now we know he was busy negotiating his next job back in the warm up area.

MelantheLLC
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:22 PM
Maybe he'll get a new hairdresser too.

(ooh, catty) *slaps herself*

canyonoak
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:23 PM
Well, the Netherlands would be crazy to lose him, so I'm betting that they find some way to keep him through 2012.

petitefilly
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:25 PM
Maybe he'll get a new hairdresser too.

(ooh, catty) *slaps herself*

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

He always looks like such a "townie". <That is a put down in my area of the world> :)

Equibrit
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:00 PM
Hey - Anky got her teeth fixed. Maybe somebody will buy him some Dark and Lovely!

dressagetraks
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:34 PM
I must admit, every time I've seen him on the videos, I had this insane urge to go grab a set of horse clippers. :lol:

Siswai
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:35 PM
I think the fact that he is so in demand by dressage organizations around the world says a lot of the dismal state of international dressage today:no:.

Mardi
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:23 AM
I can't imagine the Netherlands will part with him. And I don't think Anky would either. Espcecially if she's in a family way.

He'll be offered the big bucks by the Dutch and this will all blow over. Or he'll retire.

Either that, or he has a great PR person who put the idea out there that he was in demand by other teams, in order to help his contract re-negotiations with the Dutch.

dsgshowmom
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:27 AM
Either that, or he has a great PR person who put the idea out there that he was in demand by other teams, in order to help his contract re-negotiations with the Dutch.


Ummmmm yup. ;)

Dr. Whew
Aug. 22, 2008, 01:26 AM
I must admit, when I read the title of this thread my first reaction was to put an entirely different construction on the term "wanted" ;)

[URL=http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/6th/006122.html"]

FEI_JR2004
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:00 AM
I must admit, when I read the title of this thread my first reaction was to put an entirely different construction on the term "wanted" ;)

[URL=http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/6th/006122.html"]

Funny. I've heard that story and multiple others about Sjef being actually wanted for felonies in the U.S., so I had the same idea of the word wanted. From what I've heard, he won't dare come to our country because he would be arrested on arrival. I'm doubting that the U.S. wants him for anything but jail and legal reasons.

Kareen
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:11 AM
ROFLMAO. By far the most amusing Olympic's thread I've read in a few days. And less dreadfull than those Capsaicin-folk. Thank you Theo :)

poltroon
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:11 AM
I think I'd rather the US stuck with Klaus Balkenhol. I think his system has worked quite nicely in the USA. Sjef seems to be quite different in his approach, and even if it won medals, even if it improved US dressage, you can imagine quite a lot of upheaval and disarray in the meantime.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 06:29 AM
Funny. I've heard that story and multiple others about Sjef being actually wanted for felonies in the U.S., so I had the same idea of the word wanted. From what I've heard, he won't dare come to our country because he would be arrested on arrival. I'm doubting that the U.S. wants him for anything but jail and legal reasons.

I would be careful about writing things like that unless you can back it up with publicly-available documentation. Anyone actually "wanted" in that sense can be found on lists available through interpol, and on the web. So unless he is on the "red list", I wouldn't be so quick to throw around accusations.

freestyle2music
Aug. 22, 2008, 08:52 AM
The best choice for the USA should be Johan Hinneman, because Steffen Peters (yes his firstname is Steffen and not Stephan) learned to ride with Johan Hinneman, and when you want to have somebody aboard who knows how to make the best out of a Ferro he's the guy.

Please tell me: Did Klaus Balkenhol do much for the US dressage circus ?

Theo

claire
Aug. 22, 2008, 08:59 AM
Please tell me: Did Klaus Balkenhol do much for the US dressage circus ?

Theo

:confused: Why would US Dressage be considered a circus?

Equibrit
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:29 AM
Because a clown asked that question!

freestyle2music
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:56 AM
:confused: Why would US Dressage be considered a circus?

As long as the national coach of a country has almost no influence on the selections procedure I call it a CIRCUS. Specially because Klaus missed his $$$$$$$ medal-bonus now.

Theo

Mike Matson
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:04 AM
But Theo, we are waiting for you to give us the answer to this question - Who should be the U.S. freestyle designer? Don't be shy! :)

DownYonder
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:08 AM
As long as the national coach of a country has almost no influence on the selections procedure I call it a CIRCUS. Specially because Klaus missed his $$$$$$$ medal-bonus now.

Theo

So you don't think that Klaus had any say on the selection of the American team for Hong Kong?

And God help us if we end up with Sjef as our national coach. I think I would be done supporting U.S. high performance dressage. (And God help the poor horses that would be put into his training system.)

freestyle2music
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:23 AM
But Theo, we are waiting for you to give us the answer to this question - Who should be the U.S. freestyle designer? Don't be shy! :)

I have two options, or basicly one combined option.

Terry Gioto Galo (spelling ?) together with the best composers and multi instrumentalists in the world (Cees) Tol & (Thomas) Tol.

Why ?. Because Terry is the only one who understands that when you have 4 judges from Europe and 1 judge from Japan that you have to expand your focus across the boarders.



Theo

claire
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:29 AM
As long as the national coach of a country has almost no influence on the selections procedure I call it a CIRCUS. Specially because Klaus missed his $$$$$$$ medal-bonus now.

Theo

Sorry, I really don't see calling Stephan, Courtney and Debbie "circus performers" just because you think Klaus wasn't given enough "power" by the USEF in the selections procedure.

I suppose you are referring to Debbie being chosen?
In any case, hindsight is valuable! ;)

Perhaps, Sjef is having second thoughts about Imke (in hindsight).
Would he have had a bigger bonus for a Gold medal rather than Silver?

vineyridge
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:57 PM
I think he may be referring to the flap that required riders based in Europe to come to California for the selection trials, i.e. Catherine Haddad's vocal opposition to that procedure that made DOC slap back.

Mardi
Aug. 22, 2008, 01:29 PM
I've heard that story and multiple others about Sjef being actually wanted for felonies in the U.S., so I had the same idea of the word wanted. From what I've heard, he won't dare come to our country because he would be arrested on arrival. I'm doubting that the U.S. wants him for anything but jail and legal reasons.

I believe has Sjef come to the US for the World Cups in Las Vegas....

He and Anky married in Las Vegas during the 2005 WC.

slc2
Aug. 22, 2008, 01:37 PM
After Hinneman I would like Heike kemmer or Hubertus schmidt, but i dont think that will happen.

Theo, are you saying Balkenhol wasn't involved at all, in selecting the team, or just not enough?

BahamaMama
Aug. 22, 2008, 01:38 PM
I think he may be referring to the flap that required riders based in Europe to come to California for the selection trials, i.e. Catherine Haddad's vocal opposition to that procedure that made DOC slap back.

Not taking Haddad to the Olympics has cost us an Olympic medal :mad:

claire
Aug. 22, 2008, 01:54 PM
Not taking Haddad to the Olympics has cost us an Olympic medal :mad:

:confused: How do you KNOW that?

We are talking about a partnership between two living beings.

Stuff happens. How would a selection committee be able to predict 100% what would happen with each combo?

(Not to say there isn't a lot of politics involved..but even if there wasn't, it would still be a best guess/crap shoot on the part of the selection committee :cool: )

BahamaMama
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:01 PM
:confused: How do you KNOW that?

We are talking about a partnership between two living beings.

Stuff happens. How would a selection committee be able to predict 100% what would happen with each combo?

(Not to say there isn't a lot of politics involved..but even if there wasn't, it would still be a best guess/crap shoot on the part of the selection committee :cool: )

How about :

The politics involved cost us an olympic medal.:mad:

claire
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:06 PM
How about :

The politics involved cost us an olympic medal.:mad:


:lol: Nope. You are still using the advantage of hindsight.

How do you KNOW 100% that CH would not have had problems, like Debbie or Imke?

Or, that CH would have been on her best game?

mazu
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:33 PM
Love the username, Mod49! <snort>

BahamaMama
Aug. 22, 2008, 03:06 PM
:lol: Nope. You are still using the advantage of hindsight.

How do you KNOW 100% that CH would not have had problems, like Debbie or Imke?

Or, that CH would have been on her best game?

Do your really want me to answer this question :confused:

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Aug. 22, 2008, 03:21 PM
I'm pretty sure that the Germans are not making him offers :winkgrin:

claire
Aug. 22, 2008, 03:25 PM
Do your really want me to answer this question :confused:

Seriously? :yes:

DownYonder
Aug. 22, 2008, 03:29 PM
Maybe the Chinese? After all, they have negotiated with Anky to open 40 shops in China to sell her clothing. ;)

Actually, I think Sjef is trolling to get the Dutch to increase his pay. Anky needs a new international horse and they apparently can't afford one with their current level of income. :lol:

BahamaMama
Aug. 22, 2008, 03:38 PM
Maybe the Chinese? After all, they have negotiated with Anky to open 40 shops in China to sell her clothing. ;)

Actually, I think Sjef is trolling to get the Dutch to increase his pay. Anky needs a new international horse and they apparently can't afford one with their current level of income. :lol:


Isn't Mrs Offield staying with them ;)

Equibrit
Aug. 22, 2008, 03:48 PM
Sjef's Tennessee Court case; http://vlex.com/vid/36309508
The "politics" of horse trading.

claire
Aug. 22, 2008, 04:03 PM
Sjef's Tennessee Court case; http://vlex.com/vid/36309508
The "politics" of horse trading.

Wow. That's the oldest horse trader trick on the books! :eek:

Wonder what the statute of limitations on the judgement is?



Defendant also told Tyrone during that conversation that because he had been unable to find a buyer at the price plaintiffs were asking, he would forgo his commission if plaintiffs accepted the $312,000 offer.

Plaintiffs instructed defendant to sell the horse for $312,000, with no commission going to defendant. Plaintiffs received a wire transfer at their bank in Tennessee from defendant for $311, 964.50 shortly thereafter.

Plaintiffs subsequently learned, without disclosure from defendant, that the buyer had actually paid defendant $480,000.

claire
Aug. 22, 2008, 04:09 PM
Anky needs a new international horse and they apparently can't afford one with their current level of income. :lol:

What happened to Painted Black? And Nelson? I thought they were her up and coming international stars? :confused:

freestyle2music
Aug. 22, 2008, 05:23 PM
What happened to Painted Black? And Nelson? I thought they were her up and coming international stars? :confused:

Nelson No Chance (but Anky loves this horse)

Painted Black maybee


But imho Anky is out on a fishingtrip ;)
and Sjef stated in a recent interview:
"probably I am the victim who has to open my wallet this time"

claire
Aug. 22, 2008, 05:55 PM
Nelson No Chance (but Anky loves this horse)
Painted Black maybee
But imho Anky is out on a fishingtrip ;)
and Sjef stated in a recent interview:
"probably I am the victim who has to open my wallet this time"

Hmm. So you're saying ise@ssl was right?



And I really don't believe she will retire - she's trolling IMHO for someone to step forward with some big buck horses.

freestyle2music
Aug. 22, 2008, 06:01 PM
Hmm. So you're saying ise@ssl was right?

Don't put words in my mouth please. I said what i said.

grayarabs
Aug. 22, 2008, 06:37 PM
Could someone explain in a nutshell Sjef's background/training/credentials?
I had never heard of him until a few years ago - associated with AvG - like he suddenly arrived as a trainer from nowhere. Please clarify. (I am trying very hard not to type "and I wish he would go back to wherever he came from).

claire
Aug. 22, 2008, 06:50 PM
Sorry Theo. Misunderstanding.

In US trolling is also a term for fishing so:

"And I really don't believe she will retire - she's trolling IMHO for someone to step forward with some big buck horses."

is the same as:

"But imho Anky is out on a fishingtrip
and Sjef stated in a recent interview:
"probably I am the victim who has to open my wallet this time"

canticle
Aug. 22, 2008, 06:53 PM
Could someone explain in a nutshell Sjef's background/training/credentials?
I had never heard of him until a few years ago - associated with AvG - like he suddenly arrived as a trainer from nowhere. Please clarify. (I am trying very hard not to type "and I wish he would go back to wherever he came from).
As far as I can tell, Sjef Janssen doesn't have any dressage credentials. He is more a circus trainer than anything.

freestyle2music
Aug. 22, 2008, 07:26 PM
As far as I can tell, Sjef Janssen doesn't have any dressage credentials. He is more a circus trainer than anything.

Canticle just for your information one of the best horses in the HongKong Olympics used to be a circus horse :lol:

grayarabs
Aug. 22, 2008, 07:35 PM
Theo - could you elaborate on both topics.
I assume you mean Belagur (sp?). I have seen references to the circus - but what is the whole story/facts?
What did Sjef do horsewise before hooking up with Anky?
Did he train with anyone? Compete? Anything?
(Ok - cannot help it - if Sjef was with the travelling circus - it must have been as a contortionist).

Spiritpaws
Aug. 22, 2008, 08:52 PM
If memory serves me right Sjef made the dutch team for the Seoul olympics. Or he made the final selection trial for Seoul. I don't think he actually competed in those olympics but I could be wrong. I know those were Anky's first olympic games with Priscoe.
He did make a fabulous grand prix mare named Bo, who was then sold to (then) German rider Sven Rothenberger for an incredible sum of 1 million gilders. Sven married a dutch rider and then rode for Holland not Germany.

Sjef's family are athletes an he took the training of human athletes and applied it to equines.

I've watched Sjef ride and train, so I can definetly attest to the fact that he is not just a groundsman :-)

freestyle2music
Aug. 22, 2008, 09:16 PM
His first horse Oron which he bought as a youngster and which he trained to GP and won silver with in Aachen, was later sold to America. He was also trainer of the USA dressageteam. I know he trained with Johan Hinneman and some other German trainers. At one of the last Global Dressage Forums he made a statement which I very like and support. "Classical (like in dressage and music) is something that don't have any progress and always will stay the same, so it will get boring".


Anky and her husband Sjef Jansen met when they both tried to get onto the Dressage team for the Olympics in Seoul 1988. "Anky kicked my ass, joined the team and I had to stay at home", Sjef tells with a grin. "Have you gotten over it?" "-Never", he tells and laughs. They both competed on the Dutch team at the European Championships in 1993, Anky on Bonfire, who was only 8 years old at that time and Sjef on a mare called Bo. Now Sjef doesn't compete anymore and is Ankys trainer. "-Bonfire was very difficult as a young horse. She had lots of problems with him during this time. He was really talented but always had "speeding tickets" and was very, very hot. He was always too quick in the canter and Anky asked if I could help her fix the problem. On the question if Salinero is better then Bonfire he tells "–Yes, I think so" "But you did not like him in the beginning?" "-No, he couldn't do many things when he arrived and he was very, very strong and he was VERY ugly!"

canticle
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:08 PM
"Classical (like in dressage and music) is something that don't have any progress and always will stay the same, so it will get boring".
:lol::lol::lol:
Sjef should find another hobby!

slc2
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:12 PM
"he suddenly arrived as a trainer from nowhere"

for something a person knows nothing about, a person makes a lot of assumptions.

War Admiral
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:16 PM
"Classical (like in dressage and music) is something that don't have any progress and always will stay the same, so it will get boring".

The pursuit of perfection in ridden communication is always boring to those who can't do it without taking short cuts! :D

Touchstone Farm
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:35 PM
What an amusing thread! Sounds more like Sjef trying to get more pay. And him coaching the U.S.? No way -- not with his training method.

But, an amusing thread to read, no doubt.

BahamaMama
Aug. 23, 2008, 10:11 AM
What an amusing thread! Sounds more like Sjef trying to get more pay. And him coaching the U.S.? No way -- not with his training method.

But, an amusing thread to read, no doubt.

Are you a member of the US selection commission ?

Don't worry we will take him.:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

Touchstone Farm
Aug. 23, 2008, 08:56 PM
Are you a member of the US selection commission ?

Don't worry we will take him.:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

Not sure what a US selection commission is??? But I do know people who are on the US selection committee, if that's what you meant.

(And yes...you can have him!)

freestyle2music
Aug. 23, 2008, 09:19 PM
Not sure what a US selection commission is??? But I do know people who are on the US selection committee, if that's what you meant.

(And yes...you can have him!)

Don't worry about a selection committee, when Sjef toke the job in Holland he send all these committees home. Maybee something to think about for the US.;)

Mardi
Aug. 24, 2008, 01:08 AM
At one of the last Global Dressage Forums he made a statement which I very like and support. "Classical (like in dressage and music) is something that don't have any progress and always will stay the same, so it will get boring".

As I said before: sports don't make character, they reveal it.

Please, let's stop sharing quotes from Anky and Sjef. The gold keeps getting more and more tarnished.

Equibrit
Aug. 24, 2008, 09:26 AM
when Sjef toke the job in Holland

He probably will/does!

Keepthepeace
Aug. 24, 2008, 09:32 AM
After watching the Olympics I am really surprised that all you posters that are so dead set against "rollkur" never say anything against the jumper riders and only flame Anky. Why is that?:yes:

slc2
Aug. 24, 2008, 10:52 AM
Did you miss that very beneficial discussion?:lol:

We have already been through all that. THe jumper riders don't do rollkur. None of them. Sometimes they bend their horses a little tiny bit, but that's different, any pictures you post of jumpers shown in a more extreme position are waved away as being 'exceptions' or 'distorted pictures'. Don't you know how deceptive photos can be? Jumpers don't do rollkur.

In fact, NO ONE does anything outre other than Anky, and she does it to win, and the judges, all of them, are in on it. None of them have a clue about what REAL dressage is or know how to judge it. They're all corrupt anyway. They just want to sell the horses they have for sale and make alot of money.

Those western horses with their chins on their chests, the arabs, the jumpers, none of them are doing anything bad, and NONE of them are harmed. Only Anky's horses are doing rollkur, and only her horses are harmed, and only she is doing anything different from any other riders.

So please, at least while you're here, try to keep it straight. :D Anky is the only criminal in this horse neck bending thing, and incidentally, the ONLY dressage rider who does ANYTHING that could be considered outre, extreme, by anyone. All the rest of the dressage riders in the world are channeling Xenophon via Nuno Olivera, and never bend their horses down or to the side beyond seeing the shine of their little eyes.

freestyle2music
Aug. 24, 2008, 11:19 AM
Did you miss that very beneficial discussion?:lol:

We have already been through all that. THe jumper riders don't do rollkur. None of them. Sometimes they bend their horses a little tiny bit, but that's different, any pictures you post of jumpers shown in a more extreme position are waved away as being 'exceptions' or 'distorted pictures'. Don't you know how deceptive photos can be? Jumpers don't do rollkur.

In fact, NO ONE does anything outre other than Anky, and she does it to win, and the judges, all of them, are in on it. None of them have a clue about what REAL dressage is or know how to judge it. They're all corrupt anyway. They just want to sell the horses they have for sale and make alot of money.

Those western horses with their chins on their chests, the arabs, the jumpers, none of them are doing anything bad, and NONE of them are harmed. Only Anky's horses are doing rollkur, and only her horses are harmed, and only she is doing anything different from any other riders.

So please, at least while you're here, try to keep it straight. :D Anky is the only criminal in this horse neck bending thing, and incidentally, the ONLY dressage rider who does ANYTHING that could be considered outre, extreme, by anyone. All the rest of the dressage riders in the world are channeling Xenophon via Nuno Olivera, and never bend their horses down or to the side beyond seeing the shine of their little eyes.

Wowwwwww, SLC2 . I really love this kind of humor, because it's also my kind of humor, but due to the fact that English is not my native language I have some problems to put it the marvelous way you do. Chapeau

Theo

evenstar
Aug. 24, 2008, 02:01 PM
Wowwwwww, SLC2 . I really love this kind of humor, because it's also my kind of humor, but due to the fact that English is not my native language I have some problems to put it the marvelous way you do. Chapeau

Wait, Theo, you mean that wasn't true?:eek::eek::eek:

(Where's that wide-eyed naive emoticon when I need it ;))

Keepthepeace
Aug. 24, 2008, 09:29 PM
Did you miss that very beneficial discussion?:lol:

We have already been through all that. THe jumper riders don't do rollkur. None of them. Sometimes they bend their horses a little tiny bit, but that's different, any pictures you post of jumpers shown in a more extreme position are waved away as being 'exceptions' or 'distorted pictures'. Don't you know how deceptive photos can be? Jumpers don't do rollkur.

In fact, NO ONE does anything outre other than Anky, and she does it to win, and the judges, all of them, are in on it. None of them have a clue about what REAL dressage is or know how to judge it. They're all corrupt anyway. They just want to sell the horses they have for sale and make alot of money.

Those western horses with their chins on their chests, the arabs, the jumpers, none of them are doing anything bad, and NONE of them are harmed. Only Anky's horses are doing rollkur, and only her horses are harmed, and only she is doing anything different from any other riders.

So please, at least while you're here, try to keep it straight. :D Anky is the only criminal in this horse neck bending thing, and incidentally, the ONLY dressage rider who does ANYTHING that could be considered outre, extreme, by anyone. All the rest of the dressage riders in the world are channeling Xenophon via Nuno Olivera, and never bend their horses down or to the side beyond seeing the shine of their little eyes.

SLC2 - There you go spoiling all the fun of me trying to live up to my cybername! :winkgrin:

Dr. Whew
Aug. 25, 2008, 02:01 AM
With all due respect to your long and illustrious career on this BB: per your above post implying that AVG is the only target of criticism for over bending: where do the people deploring Anky/RK say that it's OK to commit the same type of abuse in other “disciplines”? In my experience, to the contrary the practice is universally condemned in all occurrences.

And, as I posted on “the other BB”, the solution to this issue is simply to bring the current trend of rewarding tense, leg flinging performances to its logical conclusion: change the Olympic discipline from “Dressage” to “Circus Tricks and Saddlebreds”.

Multiple benefits:
1. Would meet the current criteria as promulgated by Witthages, Lette, et al.
2. More adrenalized flash = better TV ratings and bigger sponsor money
3. Greater entertainment value for most spectators (the most, not the most informed)
4. Think of the costuming possibilities!!!
5. Real Dressage then can be left alone to recover in peace.

A solution from which all (human) parties can benefit!

SGray
Aug. 25, 2008, 10:50 AM
...... He was also trainer of the USA dressageteam. I know he trained with Johan Hinneman and some other German trainers. At one of the last Global Dressage Forums he made a statement which I very like and support. "Classical (like in dressage and music) is something that don't have any progress and always will stay the same, so it will get boring".

huh??

slc2
Aug. 25, 2008, 11:22 AM
That is Theo's way of saying hyperflexion of the neck is 'progress'. And because it is the dutch more so under fire for it, he has to battle to defend it and claim it is 'progress' and that classical is boring and doesn't have progress. That is the original meaning of the word 'chauvinism', which means, 'because my country is doing it, it is right, and the rest of you are wrong'.

The Dutch pretending rollkur is flawless is just as ridiculous as the germans pretending they didn't invent it.

Actually, 'classical' dressage has 'progress'. If correctly trained, horses do 'progress' and improve.

There are very, very bad 'classical' riders and trainers out there. They horses are incorrectly on the bit, they are restricted and stiff in their movements, and they are not moving correctly over their backs, through their shoulders or hips. They are doing 'fake' collection. Many people are far too impressed by an 'irregular, frantic stamping on the ground in place' and think it's a piaffe and a sign of some miraculous knowledge.

There are badly trained rollkur horses out there. The horses are incorrectly on the bit, they are restricted and stiff in their movements, and they are not moving correctly over their backs, through their shoulders or hips. They are doing 'fake' collection.

I have ridden classically trained horses that were stiff, exaggerated, incorrectly working the back, and had horrible contact with the bits. I have ridden rollkur trained horses that were joyful, eager, supple, and correctly connected to the bit, working over the back correctly with beautiful, classical movements. There is more to the success of a training method than just one part of the training method. A horse can be ridden deep, behind the vertical, and benefit from it. He also can be ridden deep, behind the vertical and develop incorrectly working back, neck, hind quarters.

There are many very self righteous people going around saying hyperflexion is not 'classical' and that classical riders are better, and non competitive, and competitive riders suck, and classical riders don't do hyperflexion. They've been saying that for a very long time. They've repeated it so many times they have started to believe it's true, and they've gotten other people to believe it, too.

There are also many other self righteous people going around beating their chests and shedding many a theatrical tear about how they don't do rollkur, they are classical, and they are offering something so much better and so much more classical.

Some of them have been just as ready to use their aids very, very strongly, producing an effect very similar to what anti-rollkurists say they don't like. But the anti rollkurists are so completely blinded by emotion that they don't see that.

I frankly have not found a lot of heroes on either side. Both are using a lot of chest beating and emotion, both sides make absolutely no sense, both are too hysterical to say anything rational or logical.

The argument that proper classical dressage training (not some pie-in-the-sky mumbo jumbo you made up, but actual classical training) doesn't make progress is utterly absurd and should be rejected without a moment's further thought. The argument that rollkur drives horses insane and ruins them and kills them and pains them also is absurd. The idea that just because someone competes and wins they are a bastard is also ridiculous, as is the idea that every judge is on the take and the idea that every horse that loses was robbed.

BahamaMama
Aug. 25, 2008, 12:52 PM
I understand that Theo's horses are trained by Johan Hinneman, so does this mean that JH is also a follower of Rollkur :confused:

Keepthepeace
Aug. 26, 2008, 10:23 AM
That is Theo's way of saying hyperflexion of the neck is 'progress'. And because it is the dutch more so under fire for it, he has to battle to defend it and claim it is 'progress' and that classical is boring and doesn't have progress. That is the original meaning of the word 'chauvinism', which means, 'because my country is doing it, it is right, and the rest of you are wrong'.

The Dutch pretending rollkur is flawless is just as ridiculous as the germans pretending they didn't invent it.

Actually, 'classical' dressage has 'progress'. If correctly trained, horses do 'progress' and improve.

There are very, very bad 'classical' riders and trainers out there. They horses are incorrectly on the bit, they are restricted and stiff in their movements, and they are not moving correctly over their backs, through their shoulders or hips. They are doing 'fake' collection. Many people are far too impressed by an 'irregular, frantic stamping on the ground in place' and think it's a piaffe and a sign of some miraculous knowledge.

There are badly trained rollkur horses out there. The horses are incorrectly on the bit, they are restricted and stiff in their movements, and they are not moving correctly over their backs, through their shoulders or hips. They are doing 'fake' collection.

I have ridden classically trained horses that were stiff, exaggerated, incorrectly working the back, and had horrible contact with the bits. I have ridden rollkur trained horses that were joyful, eager, supple, and correctly connected to the bit, working over the back correctly with beautiful, classical movements. There is more to the success of a training method than just one part of the training method. A horse can be ridden deep, behind the vertical, and benefit from it. He also can be ridden deep, behind the vertical and develop incorrectly working back, neck, hind quarters.

There are many very self righteous people going around saying hyperflexion is not 'classical' and that classical riders are better, and non competitive, and competitive riders suck, and classical riders don't do hyperflexion. They've been saying that for a very long time. They've repeated it so many times they have started to believe it's true, and they've gotten other people to believe it, too.

There are also many other self righteous people going around beating their chests and shedding many a theatrical tear about how they don't do rollkur, they are classical, and they are offering something so much better and so much more classical.

Some of them have been just as ready to use their aids very, very strongly, producing an effect very similar to what anti-rollkurists say they don't like. But the anti rollkurists are so completely blinded by emotion that they don't see that.

I frankly have not found a lot of heroes on either side. Both are using a lot of chest beating and emotion, both sides make absolutely no sense, both are too hysterical to say anything rational or logical.

The argument that proper classical dressage training (not some pie-in-the-sky mumbo jumbo you made up, but actual classical training) doesn't make progress is utterly absurd and should be rejected without a moment's further thought. The argument that rollkur drives horses insane and ruins them and kills them and pains them also is absurd. The idea that just because someone competes and wins they are a bastard is also ridiculous, as is the idea that every judge is on the take and the idea that every horse that loses was robbed.

I couldn't have said it better myself SLC2! You GO GIRL!

Keepthepeace
Aug. 26, 2008, 10:30 AM
It is a bit ridiculous that the man should have to 'justify' his credentials - he has produced the World Cup Champion for how many titles AND the Gold Medalist of the last three Olympics for crying out loud. Who really gives a crap if he trained poodles before this? The man can certainly produce a winner and has proven it! So now all the naysayers come out to say 'so what's HIS claim to fame, what's HE done?' "Who CARES people"? Who CARES?:winkgrin:

Mike Matson
Aug. 26, 2008, 11:32 AM
We are not here to reinvent classical horsemanship, because everything has been tried, tested, and thought about, and only that which worked most of the time with most horses, in gentle and easy ways, was retained; that is the classical body of equestrian knowledge. It is pragmatic; it is as up-to-date as you can ever get because the horse and the human did not change all that much in two millennia. We don't need a new technology, a new shape and form. We don't need those people who advocate neo-primitivism and want to reinvent things. We have no need for new gimmicks. We have no use for the trick of the month. We have tried everything for centuries, and we are up to date!

The classical rider who takes his time to develop the foundation of the horse, correct musculature, and correct skeletal motion and pursue the the purest ideals is the most up-to-date rider in the world. There is no one who can improve on him.


Charles de Kunffy, The Ethics and Passions of Dressage

freestyle2music
Aug. 26, 2008, 12:03 PM
Sorry but this is b*ll. Horses are specially breed for top dressage today. See how the Frisian horses have developed from carthorses to dressagehorses.
Breeders in the entire world are working to get a better horse, riders and trainers in the whole world are trying to follow and fill in the gaps which were still there and will always be there.

This all sounds to me the same as telling that the world is still flat or we will never walk on the moon. During the last Olympics every day a worldrecord was broken. How can somebody be taken seriously when he makes such statements. Advocating these kind of statements is the same as saying the world can stop turning.

Theo

canticle
Aug. 26, 2008, 01:33 PM
Sorry but this is b*ll. Horses are specially breed for top dressage today. See how the Frisian horses have developed from carthorses to dressagehorses.
Breeders in the entire world are working to get a better horse, riders and trainers in the whole world are trying to follow and fill in the gaps which were still there and will always be there.

This all sounds to me the same as telling that the world is still flat or we will never walk on the moon. During the last Olympics every day a worldrecord was broken. How can somebody be taken seriously when he makes such statements. Advocating these kind of statements is the same as saying the world can stop turning.

Theo
How can Charles de Kunffy be taken seriously? Maybe he knows more than all of us BB posters combined?

All of today's "advancements" in the breeding and training of "dressage" horses are just giant steps backwards. People will recognize this eventually, and then they will have to spend years to undo the damage.

Just look at the loss of type in the Friesian breed as an example. Soon people will be trying frantically to preserve the old style.

Sjef can come to the U.S. if he wants, but he would have a rude awakening, for here he would be treated like the beginner he is.

BahamaMama
Aug. 26, 2008, 02:28 PM
How can Charles de Kunffy be taken seriously? Maybe he knows more than all of us BB posters combined?

All of today's "advancements" in the breeding and training of "dressage" horses are just giant steps backwards. People will recognize this eventually, and then they will have to spend years to undo the damage.

Just look at the loss of type in the Friesian breed as an example. Soon people will be trying frantically to preserve the old style.

Sjef can come to the U.S. if he wants, but he would have a rude awakening, for here he would be treated like the beginner he is.

I have only one answer

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/730204/stupid_american/

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 26, 2008, 02:35 PM
Sjef can come to the U.S. if he wants, but he would have a rude awakening, for here he would be treated like the beginner he is.

Fortunately, the US has been such an international powehouse in dressage for so many years that we don't need the help of any of those foreign trainers. ;)

freestyle2music
Aug. 26, 2008, 02:45 PM
I think the advantage of the ODG's (Old Dressage Guru's) is that at the time they were teaching we didn't have internet, or life broadcasts of training sessions, clinics and/or competitions. And surely not these camera's hidden behind the trees. We just have to take their written words for it. Books and articles written for a specific market is all we (sorry you) have.

Did one of you ever asked these trainers how they trained their students at the time they still had students who were running for an Olympic (or any other important) medal. :no::no::no:

Theo

slc2
Aug. 26, 2008, 07:40 PM
Can you explain exactly what your last sentence is trying to suggest?

sm
Aug. 26, 2008, 07:54 PM
In an official statement today the Royal Dutch Equestrian Federation wrote that they will do everything to keep Sjef Janssen as Trainer and Coach for the Dutch team. The contract that Sjef had with the KNHS ended yesterday.

It's not a secret that almost every important dressage-country wants to hire him as trainer and coach.

Rumours are that it probably will be Russia or the USA, while GB and some other countries are also in the picture.

Sjef stated that he will take a decission within some months.

I will put my money on 1 The Netherlands, 2 Russia , 3 Denmark.

You can cross US off the list. The USET doesn't want a coach convicted of fraud, wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole because they could never get their fundraisers to be successful...

Thanks for the laugh, Theo.

sm
Aug. 26, 2008, 07:59 PM
IDid one of you ever asked these trainers how they trained their students at the time they still had students who were running for an Olympic (or any other important) medal. :no::no::no:

Theo

The horse tells me everything I need to know. The videos of Absent. Alderich. Various military officers and their horses.

It's all in there, the horse does not lie. Even if trainers do.

penhille
Aug. 26, 2008, 08:17 PM
I have only one answer

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/730204/stupid_american/

*Hitting head against wall* That was painfully frustrating to watch. It was kind of funny, though, because every time they asked the country that began with a U, I was screaming "UGANDA!" in my head. I didn't even think USA.

Kareen
Aug. 27, 2008, 02:13 AM
Theo has horses?

Sabine
Aug. 27, 2008, 02:26 AM
Can you explain exactly what your last sentence is trying to suggest?

You apparently never visited overthere when you were young...because the methods and the rules and stuff that happened then- would not be looked upon kindly in today's day and age...AT ALL! There are many stories about many famous old trainers- some told to me by my mom who was there when it happened...

that's all I will say.

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:56 AM
You apparently never visited overthere when you were young...because the methods and the rules and stuff that happened then- would not be looked upon kindly in today's day and age...AT ALL! There are many stories about many famous old trainers- some told to me by my mom who was there when it happened...

that's all I will say.


OMG Sabine Now you have bursted their bubble.;)

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 07:01 AM
You can cross US off the list. He still owes money in the court case he lost here, he's not showing his face in this country. Nor does the USET want a coach convicted of criminal charges, wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole becasue they could never get their fundraisers to be successful...

Thanks for the laugh, Theo.

The court case was a CIVIL matter, not criminal. He challenged the court's jurisdiction over him, lost that motion, and did not appear for the bench trial because he decided to continue opposing jurisdiction and the strategy was to appeal the jurisdictional ruling to the appellate court. A default judgment was entered by the district court in his absence. The appellate court affirmed the district court's jurisdictional ruling, and did not disturb the default judgment.

To my knowledge, NO criminal charges were ever brought against him here; there was NO "criminal conviction."


And how do you know he did not pay the amount awarded in judgment in the civil case? Or if he did not, that it is not time-barred (off of the top of my head I do not know what the statute of limitations is for that judgment in that jurisdiction). He HAS been to the United States in the recent past. So obviously that is not a concern for him. And Anky reportedly makes approximately $6 million a year. I think they could probably afford to pay the judgment.

ise@ssl
Aug. 27, 2008, 07:25 AM
I truly hope this man is not even considered as the Coach for the US Team. I don't care how many horses he and Anky have taken to the top - their horses don't ever seem to have a relaxed eye in competition. Let them stay in Holland.

And while Sjef's court case was civil and not criminal - it speaks to the ethics of the man ( when you read the details of the case. He clearly had no ethics.

Equibrit
Aug. 27, 2008, 07:52 AM
Well - if it's ONLY a civil action, and Anky earns a gazillion dollars a year, then it must be just fine and dandy. Sjef is the epiome of political correctness and has the morals of a lawyer. We should elect him President.


"This tort action for fraud and breach of fiduciary duty was brought by plaintiffs, John Neal and his daughter Lea Anne, residents of Tennessee, against Sjef Janssen, a citizen of Belgium."
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/6th/006122.html

Fraud
Fraud is the act of deliberately deceiving another individual or group in order to secure an unfair or unlawful personal gain at the expense of that party. Fraud can be a civil and or a criminal offense. Civil action can be brought against a person who has committed fraud in order to seek compensation for the damages caused by the fraud. Fraud is also considered a white collar crime that is taken very seriously by the federal government and all fifty states.
A white collar crime is an offense that takes place in a professional or business setting. Many white collar crimes are fraud crimes, though there are additional crimes that fall under this category. There are many different types of fraud that are illegal in the United States, most of which fall under these general categories: consumer fraud, employment fraud, and fraud that is committed by a consumer against a business or government institution.
Most types of fraud are considered felony crimes that are aggressively prosecuted in the criminal justice system. A person who is convicted of fraud may face incarceration, punitive fines, restitution, probation, community service, and other penalties. The consequences for fraud will depend on the nature, scope, and severity of the offense, whether the fraud was committed by an individual or group, and the state or federal laws that apply to the case.
Consumer fraud has taken center stage in the minds of many consumers, policy makers, and businesses nationwide. The government estimates that more than twenty-five million Americans- or eleven percent of the population- are the victims of consumer fraud every year. With advances in internet technology, the crimes of internet fraud, credit card fraud, identity theft, and similar crimes can be carried out with greater ease and anonymity than ever before. Other consumer fraud crimes can include: securities fraud, mail fraud, telemarketing fraud, and more.
Employment, or occupational fraud is defined as, "a clandestine activity that violates an employee's fiduciary duties to the company or the company's customers or clientele. Embezzlement, trade secret fraud, larceny and other crimes are common types of employment fraud. Occupational fraud can also include criminal fraud committed by public officials such as bribery, public corruption, and government fraud.
Fraud can also be carried out by individuals with the intent to deceive a business or government institution. These types of fraud can include insurance fraud, tax evasion, counterfeiting, healthcare fraud, bankruptcy fraud, fraud relating to government social programs (like Medicare and Social security) and more.

canticle
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:01 AM
I really don't think Sjef would step foot in the U.S. unless he wanted to be put back on the longe line! No one here would have a clue who he is, so he'd have to start from the ground up. His training methods would be met with disdain, and the results just wouldn't cut it. In short, I don't think he has what it takes for the U.S. scene. It would be a very rude awakening for him!

slc2
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:14 AM
"Originally Posted by Sabine
You apparently never visited overthere when you were young...because the methods and the rules and stuff that happened then- would not be looked upon kindly in today's day and age...AT ALL! There are many stories about many famous old trainers- some told to me by my mom who was there when it happened...

that's all I will say.


OMG Sabine Now you have bursted their bubble"

You think you're the only two people in the world that know this? Give me a break.

I laugh my a** off when people claim certain trainers are so 'Xenophon-y' and sweet and kind and undyingly classical. It's ridiculous. Hyperflexion is probably one of the most benign that has come along in a long, long time. As far as the 'oh-my-god-what-the-hell-is-he-doing' factor, I far prefer it to a lot of the other crap that has been done in the past.

-----

Not really, canticle.

First of all, you aren't exactly on the list of people who would be working with a national dressage coach, and you wouldn't be deciding anything about Jensen being on a longe line.

Further, you are constantly declaring that what you think is what everyone else in America, or the COH bb, thinks. I can assure you, your thoughts are very unique. This constant declaration that you're thinking the same as others - there are pills for that.

Second of all, there is a sizeable group of people in the United States who don't think rollkur is wrong or evil and kills horses. AND who don't think it makes horses tense - at all. You can argue all you want about whether they should believe that or not, but it's a very simple fact - THEY BELIEVE IT.

And to be honest, most of them are a lot closer to having anything to do with a national coach than canticle is.

Third, Sjeff actually rides very well, and he has a much better seat and technique than most people who ride dressage, and he trained several very successful top level horses.

He was in European championship, which is widely agreed to be far, far more difficult than any World or Olympic games could ever be - to get into and to place in.

The European dressage power nations can field a dozen 4 man teams each who score better than the Americans. The only thing that lets us in the door at the Olympics and the worlds is that those nations can only send one team each, and frankly, that it IS team based, even then, we usually only can present ONE horse and rider pair that can get into the top 5 or 10.

We would get buried in Individual competition in that sort of thing (I mean European championship).

And quite a few of the people in the USA who DON'T think rollkur is so evil, have a lot more to say about who coaches the USA than you do.

It is, in fact, a definite possibility that the American powers that be would pick Jensen. It is alot more to do with who won recently than 'Oh, my, he does hyperflexion'.

You can say all day that that's wrong, but that is the bottom line.

I doubt it will happen more because of personalities and politics, than anyone being hot under the collar about rollkur, but I think wanting to get a gold medal can also make a LOT of strange bedfellows.

I still doubt Jensen's conditions would be met sufficiently for his requirements, by any contract the USA powers would offer him. I think he would be wanting more say in what goes on as far as which horses and which riders, and that would piss a lot of 'old favorites' off.

Too, I am not sure the riders involved would get along with him. They are used to having their own personal coaches.

Because of that, I think even if Jensen didn't ever coach anyone to do hyperflexion again, they would STILL have a lot to argue about with him, just because of the situation with their private trainers.

There are diehards here who have alot to do with those decisions who won't be in favor of a coach that uses alot of hyperflexion. But there are others who don't care.

I'm not sure Axel Steiner would be the first choice, either. It would need to be someone who has very recently coached a gold medal team at a WEG or Olympics. I think that's the main criteria.

My personal choice would be Bemmelmans, but I am not sure we would 'lower' ourselves to use the same coach Mexico did.

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 08:35 AM
"Originally Posted by Sabine
You apparently never visited overthere when you were young...because the methods and the rules and stuff that happened then- would not be looked upon kindly in today's day and age...AT ALL! There are many stories about many famous old trainers- some told to me by my mom who was there when it happened...

that's all I will say.


OMG Sabine Now you have bursted their bubble"

You think you're the only two people in the world that know this? Give me a break.

I laugh my a** off when people claim certain trainers are so 'Xenophon-y' and sweet and kind and undyingly classical. It's ridiculous. Hyperflexion is probably one of the most benign that has come along in a long, long time. As far as the 'oh-my-god-what-the-hell-is-he-doing' factor, I far prefer it to a lot of the other crap that has been done in the past.

-----

Not really, canticle.

First of all, you aren't exactly on the list of people who would be working with a national dressage coach, and you wouldn't be deciding anything about Jensen being on a longe line.

Further, you are constantly declaring that what you think is what everyone else in America, or the COH bb, thinks. I can assure you, your thoughts are very unique. This constant declaration that you're thinking the same as others - there are pills for that.

Second of all, there is a sizeable group of people in the United States who don't think rollkur is wrong or evil and kills horses. AND who don't think it makes horses tense - at all. You can argue all you want about whether they should believe that or not, but it's a very simple fact - THEY BELIEVE IT.

And to be honest, most of them are a lot closer to having anything to do with a national coach than canticle is.

Third, Sjeff actually rides very well, and he has a much better seat and technique than most people who ride dressage, and he trained several very successful top level horses.

He was in European championship, which is widely agreed to be far, far more difficult than any World or Olympic games could ever be - to get into and to place in.

The European dressage power nations can field a dozen 4 man teams each who score better than the Americans. The only thing that lets us in the door at the Olympics and the worlds is that those nations can only send one team each, and frankly, that it IS team based, even then, we usually only can present ONE horse and rider pair that can get into the top 5 or 10.

We would get buried in Individual competition in that sort of thing (I mean European championship).

And quite a few of the people in the USA who DON'T think rollkur is so evil, have a lot more to say about who coaches the USA than you do.

It is, in fact, a definite possibility that the American powers that be would pick Jensen. It is alot more to do with who won recently than 'Oh, my, he does hyperflexion'.

You can say all day that that's wrong, but that is the bottom line.

I doubt it will happen more because of personalities and politics, than anyone being hot under the collar about rollkur, but I think wanting to get a gold medal can also make a LOT of strange bedfellows.

I still doubt Jensen's conditions would be met sufficiently for his requirements, by any contract the USA powers would offer him. I think he would be wanting more say in what goes on as far as which horses and which riders, and that would piss a lot of 'old favorites' off.

Too, I am not sure the riders involved would get along with him. They are used to having their own personal coaches.

Because of that, I think even if Jensen didn't ever coach anyone to do hyperflexion again, they would STILL have a lot to argue about with him, just because of the situation with their private trainers.

There are diehards here who have alot to do with those decisions who won't be in favor of a coach that uses alot of hyperflexion. But there are others who don't care.

I'm not sure Axel Steiner would be the first choice, either. It would need to be someone who has very recently coached a gold medal team at a WEG or Olympics. I think that's the main criteria.

My personal choice would be Bemmelmans, but I am not sure we would 'lower' ourselves to use the same coach Mexico did.

Why didn't I think of Jean Bemmelmans. Yes... A gentleman "pür sang" , an open mind, and someone who speaks fluently English and has been around the block. And........very well respected in the Equestrian world by everyone.

Theo

Keepthepeace
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:31 AM
Charles de Kunffy, The Ethics and Passions of Dressage

I am a professional coach. I saw Charles de Kunffy in a clinic. He had four people longeing in a tiny arena who were running into one another the whole time! Talk about safety issues! He wouldn't have passed a Coach 1 exam in Canada let me tell you. He talked like he was on Vallium and seemed totally bewildered the entire time. He showed no common sense whatsoever! It was ridiculous how scary his 'words of wisdom' were to these poor people. I was horrified. I would never read a word of his after seeing him in person.:eek:

canticle
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:32 AM
slick, how on earth is "Sjeff Jensen"!? You might want to learn his name before you sing his praises!

My thoughts are just as mainstream/legitimate as anybody's. I will not be silenced by people like you or Theo (i.e. training level railbirds). :lol:

Rollkur is not evil -- it's just bad training. The results are all the proof I need.

Keepthepeace
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:36 AM
I really don't think Sjef would step foot in the U.S. unless he wanted to be put back on the longe line! No one here would have a clue who he is, so he'd have to start from the ground up. His training methods would be met with disdain, and the results just wouldn't cut it. In short, I don't think he has what it takes for the U.S. scene. It would be a very rude awakening for him!

I think Sjef has already seen whom you people have chosen as president (- a man who greets foreign dignitaries like our Prime Minister Harper as "Yo Harper" at a formal State Affair!) and would say 'no thank you' to the U.S. scene! :eek:

slc2
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:43 AM
'charles de kunffy coaching people in longe line circles running into eachother...would not get a canadian coaching license'.

that's the beauty of being a self defined expert. you don't NEED a license.

i seriously doubt de kunffy would ever be considered for coaching any national team. i'm not sure how anyone could seriously think that would be possible.

'before singing his praises'.

you're completely gone round the bend if you think i'm singing his praises. i'm saying what i think is going on, i am not praising ANYONE.

keepthepiece, love the political jibe, but money talks, and the other stuff walks.

yes, theo, bemelmans would be great. i don't know what would make him want to, though. wow he did good with pujals.

BahamaMama
Aug. 27, 2008, 09:47 AM
Is this discussion still going on :confused:

We want Sjef and we also make him president :yes:

Keepthepeace
Aug. 27, 2008, 10:20 AM
Is this discussion still going on :confused:

We want Sjef and we also make him president :yes:

Finally! A horse on the White House lawn!! Very politically correct too - Salinero will keep the grass cut. :winkgrin::

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 10:40 AM
I

And while Sjef's court case was civil and not criminal - it speaks to the ethics of the man ( when you read the details of the case. He clearly had no ethics.

The case was never adjudicated on the merits. He only ever made a jurisdictional challenge, which he lost. A default judgment is automatically entered in favor of the plaintiff when a defendant does not show up for trial (as one might do if challenging the court's jurisdiction). For all I know, he may be really slimey. But it is defamatory to state that he has a criminal conviction here. (Plus, COTH BB does expressly forbid making such statements unless there are publicly-available documents supporting them). There really is a HUGE difference between a civil judgment and a criminal conviction. And if the truth is bad enough on its own, why exagerrate?

Sabine
Aug. 27, 2008, 11:00 AM
The case was never adjudicated on the merits. He only ever made a jurisdictional challenge, which he lost. A default judgment is automatically entered in favor of the plaintiff when a defendant does not show up for trial (as one might do if challenging the court's jurisdiction). For all I know, he may be really slimey. But it is defamatory to state that he has a criminal conviction here. (Plus, COTH BB does expressly forbid making such statements unless there are publicly-available documents supporting them). There really is a HUGE difference between a civil judgment and a criminal conviction. And if the truth is bad enough on its own, why exagerrate?

Glad you are around- nice to have the dry analytical mind of a lawyer on board!

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 11:16 AM
But didn't he went to Vegas afterwards and even married there ?

sm
Aug. 27, 2008, 11:59 AM
But didn't he went to Vegas afterwards and even married there ?

Didn't he have more then one fraud case he lost in the US?

Who cares, the point is he would never be asked by the USET for a head coach position.

So his contract with KNHS ended, and he is looking? I'm sure something will turn up!

sm
Aug. 27, 2008, 12:15 PM
The case was never adjudicated on the merits. He only ever made a jurisdictional challenge, which he lost. A default judgment is automatically entered in favor of the plaintiff when a defendant does not show up for trial (as one might do if challenging the court's jurisdiction). For all I know, he may be really slimey. But it is defamatory to state that he has a criminal conviction here. (Plus, COTH BB does expressly forbid making such statements unless there are publicly-available documents supporting them). There really is a HUGE difference between a civil judgment and a criminal conviction. And if the truth is bad enough on its own, why exagerrate?

Good point. Edited post, now reads FRAUD instead of criminal charges. The jury returned a verdict in favor of plaintiffs in the amount of $250,000 compensatory damages and $250,000 in punitive damages. Somehow FRAUD sounds much worse to me, but there you have it:

"You can cross US off the list. The USET doesn't want a coach convicted of fraud, wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole because they could never get their fundraisers to be successful..

Thanks for the laugh, Theo."

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 12:26 PM
SM. I hope at least that KB earned "honest money" on his horse-trading bussiness with the Americans :D

sm
Aug. 27, 2008, 12:31 PM
SM. I hope at least that KB earned "honest money" on his horse-trading bussiness with the Americans :D


And I hope someday NED will get olympic team gold, with or without Sjef. It is overdue.

Not sure if the Russians are coming back though, it'll be interesting when they do.

Mozart
Aug. 27, 2008, 12:46 PM
Finally! A horse on the White House lawn!! Very politically correct too - Salinero will keep the grass cut. :winkgrin::

Not the first time. Caroline Kennedy had a pony named Macaroni that lived there.

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 12:53 PM
And I hope someday NED will get olympic team gold, with or without Sjef. It is overdue.

Not sure if the Russians are coming back though, it'll be interesting when they do.

It's obvious that you really don't know how it works at the top of the FEI dressage circus.

sm
Aug. 27, 2008, 12:53 PM
Not the first time. Caroline Kennedy had a pony named Macaroni that lived there.

Oh, right! Here's a photo, http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/holiday/historicalpets3/01.html

There was also the pony, Algonguin, once brought into one of the White House bedrooms http://www.whitehousehistory.org/03/pets/05_menageries.html

Equibrit
Aug. 27, 2008, 12:55 PM
It really doesn't matter if fraud is criminal or civil - it is DISHONEST.
Not turning up to answer for your actions is immoral and the act of a coward.

Nice guy this Sjef huh?

I hope the folks in Tennessee enjoyed their $500,000.00

sm
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:03 PM
It's obvious that you really don't know how it works at the top of the FEI dressage circus.

Yet RUS does, and of course has won olympic team gold (and individual gold, etc). That is my point: NED is overdue for team gold and should get at least try to get one in the history books before RUS comes back strong.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:32 PM
Glad you are around- nice to have the dry analytical mind of a lawyer on board!

And apparently the immoral one, according to Equibrit. Thanks though : )

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:38 PM
It really doesn't matter if fraud is criminal or civil - it is DISHONEST.
Not turning up to answer for your actions is immoral and the act of a coward.


There is absolutely a distinction between civil and criminal matters. It is flat out wrong and defamatory to state that someone is a convicted criminal when in fact that person has only been held liable in a civil matter.

Regarding "not turning up" - -I did not represent the guy, obviously, but there are instances where turning up would waive the jurisdictional challenge. It has nothing to do with cowardice or morals at all, but to do with the rules of civil procedure.

If you guys think he is so bad, I don't see why you feel the need to make stuff up about him. Just stick to the facts.

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:40 PM
Yet RUS does, and of course has won olympic team gold (and individual gold, etc). That is my point: NED is overdue for team gold and should get at least try to get one in the history books before RUS comes back strong.

Why don't you put you money on the USA instead of Russia. If Russia hires Sjef Janssen and invest the money they did in soccer, we all can forget it.

@ Equibrit : Maybee Anky is also a criminal not saluting the judge (the judge you all seem to disrespect)

Coreene
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:42 PM
I really don't think Sjef would step foot in the U.S. unless he wanted to be put back on the longe line! No one here would have a clue who he is, so he'd have to start from the ground up. His training methods would be met with disdain, and the results just wouldn't cut it. In short, I don't think he has what it takes for the U.S. scene. It would be a very rude awakening for him!Oh please. "No one here would have a clue who he is"??? What planet are you on? People would be lining up to train with him. Including me.

BaroquePony
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:42 PM
What is a Ferro, if you don't mind my asking?

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:46 PM
Personally, I'm thinking Henk Van Bergen is the man. I see his name more and more all the time now, and he's done quite a few clinics in the USA and is well regarded. I believe he's coached a team or teams, not sure what he has had to work with.... We can check him out in 2009

http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/newsdisplay/viewPR.aspx?id=3079

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 27, 2008, 01:54 PM
What is a Ferro, if you don't mind my asking?

Ferro is the highest placed KWPN (Royal Warmblood Studbook of the Netherlands) dressage stallion in Holland. He is ridden by Coby van Baalen.

Coreene
Aug. 27, 2008, 02:11 PM
Ferro is the highest placed KWPN (Royal Warmblood Studbook of the Netherlands) dressage stallion in Holland. He is ridden by Coby van Baalen.Past tense. He sadly is no longer.

Sabine
Aug. 27, 2008, 02:56 PM
What is a Ferro, if you don't mind my asking?

it's an equine Ferrari...;)

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:00 PM
it's an equine Ferrari...;)

Great answer. I had started to respond but was not sure if I could do him justice. A. Very. Nice. Horse.

freestyle2music
Aug. 27, 2008, 03:17 PM
Great answer. I had started to respond but was not sure if I could do him justice. A. Very. Nice. Horse.

Indeed a very nice horse, who nobody wanted to ride. Finally picked up by Coby and Hinneman, who made him an Olympic horse.

grayarabs
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:24 PM
I've ridden with CdeK - and what was mentioned previously about him I have never witnessed and actually find hard to believe - but whatever.
I can hardly ride anymore due to health issues - ie fibro/etc but I would hands down ride with CdeK before SJ. I am quite sure horses would rather be trained by CdeK than SJ as well.

Keepthepeace
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:51 PM
Oh, right! Here's a photo, http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/holiday/historicalpets3/01.html

There was also the pony, Algonguin, once brought into one of the White House bedrooms http://www.whitehousehistory.org/03/pets/05_menageries.html

This is clearly a pony incorrectly trained by some American who doesn't know proper dressage! There is no hyper-flexion softness to the neck! Bah!! How is the pony able to crop grass properly without the famous Dutch rollkur grass eating technique? Dutch ponies do it so much better! No gold medal will be awarded here.:no:

Keepthepeace
Aug. 27, 2008, 04:56 PM
What is a Ferro, if you don't mind my asking?

Why haven't you heard of "Ferro" Rocher that delicious spherical chocolate sweets consisting of a whole roasted hazelnut encased in a thin wafer shell filled with nutella/hazelnut cream and covered in milk chocolate and chopped hazelnuts. The sweets are individually packaged in a gold-coloured wrapper and contain approximately 0.3 kJ of energy? :lol:

sm
Aug. 27, 2008, 05:51 PM
Why haven't you heard of "Ferro" Rocher ....:lol:


... which brings us directly to Rocher, the Westphalian mare of similar coloring to Ferro http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/rocher030803/

sm
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:01 PM
There is absolutely a distinction between civil and criminal matters. It is flat out wrong and defamatory to state that someone is a convicted criminal when in fact that person has only been held liable in a civil matter.... If you guys think he is so bad, I don't see why you feel the need to make stuff up about him. Just stick to the facts.


Yes and no. To the USET, it makes no difference when he was found guilty of fraud (held liable for half a million dollars) if it was a civil court or not. What would the USET defense be for hiring the guy: he is not a criminal, it was a civil court case only? That would go over great at the fundraisers.

Technically you are probably correct, which is why I changed my post earlier. Mea culpa. However fraud still remains a criminal offense, and he is Persona Non Grata at the USET due to being found liable in court (if for no other reason).

Who cares if the guy is liked or not, that is completely irrelevant. Klaus would be out too with the same conviction.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:30 PM
Yes and no. To the USET, it makes no difference when he was found guilty of fraud (held liable for half a million dollars) if it was a civil court or not. What would the USET defense be for hiring the guy: he is not a criminal, it was a civil court case only? That would go over great at the fundraisers.

Technically you are probably correct, which is why I changed my post earlier. Mea culpa. However fraud still remains a criminal offense, and he is Persona Non Grata at the USET due to being found liable in court (if for no other reason).

Who cares if the guy is liked or not, that is completely irrelevant. Klaus would be out too with the same conviction.

Civil fraud is not the same as criminal fraud. Since I am a white collar criminal defense lawyer, you might defer to my expertise on the issue. A default judgment is not the same thing as a judgment rendered after an adjudication on the merits. A finding of liability is not a conviction. You cannot be "convicted" in a civil matter.
Now, if you want to say that having a default judgment rendered against you makes you person non grata at a USET fundraiser, you are entitled to your opinion. But somehow, I think a number of DQs would be lining up to train with him or donate to a team trained by him. Just as there are many who flock to horse agents in Europe with far worse records than his, including one that *is* on the interpol red list and has been charged in the US for attempted murder.

Also, I love that for some people, posters here will quickly point out there are "two sides" to every story. But if someone is unpopular or -- shudder -- uses unpopular training methods, any allegations against them must be true (do you not get that a default judgment means that the court entered a judgment on the uncontested allegations of the plaintiff????).

sm
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:49 PM
do you not get that a default judgment means that the court entered a judgment on the uncontested allegations of the plaintiff????.

Did you not get that he didn't appeal the decision? Reasonable to assume: if he intended to coach at a high level for the USET, he would want this resolved correctly to clear his name. Rather, he was a no show at court and did not appeal.

What I don't get is if he ever paid the penalty as the court requested. And therefore what happens if he tries to come back into this country and reside here for a month or so. And if interest is added to the original cost.

Again: irrevalant about his training methods and if he's liked or not.

Coreene
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:52 PM
Did you not get that he didn't appeal the decision? Reasonable to assume: if he intended to coach at a high level for the USET, he would want this resolved correctly to clear his name. Rather, he was a no show at court and a no show for appeal.

What I don't get is if he ever paid the penalty as the court requested. And therefore what happens if he tries to come back into this country and reside here for a month or so. And if interest is added to the original cost.And who said he ever wanted to coach for the US? :lol:

sm
Aug. 27, 2008, 06:58 PM
And who said he ever wanted to coach for the US? :lol:

here you go, which is why I wrote you can cross USA off the list:


It's not a secret that almost every important dressage-country wants to hire him as trainer and coach.

Rumours are that it probably will be Russia or the USA, while GB and some other countries are also in the picture.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 07:07 PM
Did you not get that he didn't appeal the decision? Reasonable to assume: if he intended to coach at a high level for the USET, he would want this resolved correctly to clear his name. Rather, he was a no show at court and did not appeal.


I already explained that he challenged the court's personal jurisdiction over him, and in order to continue challenging that, generally speaking he could NOT appear in court without waiving that challenge. There is NOTHING nefarious about taking that approach; plenty of people and companies do. He appealed the jurisdictional ruling and lost. He did not have grounds to appeal anything else.

As I said, for all I know the guy is slime. But please, don't attribute bad intentions to someone just because he followed the procedures available to him under our federal court system.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 07:09 PM
What I don't get is if he ever paid the penalty as the court requested. And therefore what happens if he tries to come back into this country and reside here for a month or so. And if interest is added to the original cost.


SM, he made no secret of the fact that he was coming to Las Vegas for World Cup and was in fact married there as well.

Postjudgment interest is available for unpaid judgments that are not time-barred.

sm
Aug. 27, 2008, 07:10 PM
But please, don't attribute bad intentions to someone just because he followed the procedures available to him under our federal court system.

Okay, fair enough. Yes, it was nice he picked Las Vegas to be married in, if I remember he was in and out of the US, didn't stay long.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 27, 2008, 07:15 PM
Okay, fair enough. Yes, it was nice he picked America to be married in.

Sorry, I get worked up. : )

Sabine
Aug. 28, 2008, 12:37 AM
Sorry, I get worked up. : )

In my book - you're a saint - carrying on as long and as patiently as you did....pearls..and you know the rest....;)!

There are certain groups here that will never be swayed...being swayed equates to
1. being weak
2. loosing your ODG admiring friends
3. having no home
....and so on....LOL! These issues are social issues that surface in every thread...I would at this point guarantee that if certain posters post a statement a retort will be coming within 6 to 12 hours of the same group as usual...

We have finally managed to be polarized...how BORING!! Only new blood can bring some excitement into this group of old fuddy-duddys....

sm
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:50 AM
Sorry, I get worked up. : )

Glad you are around to explain the legal technicalities!

I suspect Sjef has signed a new contract by now, or atleast is in the final negotiating stages, we'll just have to see...

kkj
Aug. 28, 2008, 05:58 PM
Ferro "the Black Pearl". At one time the leading dressage stallion. Has been dead for awhile now. Was a jumper before he was a dressage horse. Has a lot of approved sons. Not known to be super easy rides but very nice. Sire of Mythilus. I took Theo to mean a coach who is good with Ferros could fix Mythilus' short neck issues, but I am probably reading way too much into it.

I don't think SJ will ever be the coach in the US, but anything can happen. I am one of those who thinks he is a slimy character but you can't argue with his results.

freestyle2music
Aug. 28, 2008, 07:50 PM
Ferro "the Black Pearl". At one time the leading dressage stallion. Has been dead for awhile now. Was a jumper before he was a dressage horse. Has a lot of approved sons. Not known to be super easy rides but very nice. Sire of Mythilus. I took Theo to mean a coach who is good with Ferros could fix Mythilus' short neck issues, but I am probably reading way too much into it.

I don't think SJ will ever be the coach in the US, but anything can happen. I am one of those who thinks he is a slimy character but you can't argue with his results.


Ferro was brought to the top by Johan Hinnemann and Coby van Baalen, Sjef would never have the patience to go all the way that Ferro needed to reach the top. Furthermore you can give Sjef any name you want, but certainly not "slimy". He always has his heart on his tongue and just say what he wants to say, and he wipes his ass with what people think or write about him.

Theo

Coreene
Aug. 28, 2008, 07:56 PM
He always has his heart on his tongue and just say what he wants to say, and he wipes his ass with what people think or write about him.

TheoNee, op z'n mouw. At least, in English op z'n mouw. ;)

kkj
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:02 PM
Ferro was brought to the top by Johan Hinnemann and Coby van Baalen, Sjef would never have the patience to go all the way that Ferro needed to reach the top. Furthermore you can give Sjef any name you want, but certainly not "slimy". He always has his heart on his tongue and just say what he wants to say, and he wipes his ass with what people think or write about him.

Theo

There you go Theo. In my world, anyone who uses something other than toliet paper to wipe their a**, is slimy. (and wouldn't those words kind of sting or rub you raw?) Maybe it is a translation problem. To me Sjef is good at what he does and may or may not be full of a lot of sh**, but in looking at him I am no doubt always left with a sort of creepy slimy feeling. (sort of like Bill Clinton). Don't feel that way about Anky or any other famous dressage people. Maybe it is just his hair and wardrobe choices.

The coach I was referring to with my Ferro comments was Johan Hinnemann and not Sjef. On a little side note, I bet if JH were to become the coach he would be as much or more into selling horses than Klaus has been. Lot of horses in the US are referred to as "Hinnemann Horses".

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:16 PM
Ferro was brought to the top by Johan Hinnemann and Coby van Baalen, Sjef would never have the patience to go all the way that Ferro needed to reach the top. Furthermore you can give Sjef any name you want, but certainly not "slimy". He always has his heart on his tongue and just say what he wants to say, and he wipes his ass with what people think or write about him.

Theo

Theo, I hope you understand I was not saying *I* think he is slimey. I was just saying that I don't know the man one way or the other, and was simply trying to set the record straight here with regard to a legal problem he had. The only things I know about him is that his students win a lot, at some point in the last couple of years there was some tension between him and the riders he was training because he thought they should work harder and be fitter, and he can be fairly humorous at clinics (which I have on video). Oh, and he might have the same hairdresser as Rod Stewart.

freestyle2music
Aug. 28, 2008, 09:52 PM
Theo, I hope you understand I was not saying *I* think he is slimey. I was just saying that I don't know the man one way or the other, and was simply trying to set the record straight here with regard to a legal problem he had. The only things I know about him is that his students win a lot, at some point in the last couple of years there was some tension between him and the riders he was training because he thought they should work harder and be fitter, and he can be fairly humorous at clinics (which I have on video). Oh, and he might have the same hairdresser as Rod Stewart.

Sjef comes from a topsport family (cycling) and only wants full dedication of his riders when they want to reach the top. In every interview Anky is always complaining about the fact that Sjef never is 100% satisfied with her or Sali's performance. The period you are referering at was about the fact that Sjef set up all kind of programs for our national A- and B-team riders. And when some of these riders didn't attend these programs (because they had clinics, shows or parties) he quit his job as our national coach. A few months later the same riders asked him back. The most humerous one of the family is Anky and to a lesser degree Sjef. I think the way he wears his hair is showing to the wold "his middlefinger" .

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 28, 2008, 10:37 PM
I think the way he wears his hair is showing to the wold "his middlefinger" .

I thought he was trying to cultivate an 80s rocker look ; )

MelantheLLC
Aug. 28, 2008, 10:58 PM
*cough*

Sabine
Aug. 29, 2008, 01:02 AM
I think he's got more brains than the average population plus a heritage of 'knowhow ' in the competitive sports industry- the hair doesn't bother me- it seems very fine to me- because I really couldn't care less about how someone wants to look- as long as their body stats don't interfere with their chosen sport...live and let live..please folks - grow up..the next generation will leave you in the dust- if you dont...LOL!!!
Sjef has innovated the sport and what the fritz would we even be talking about if he didn't exist?????

AiryFairy
Aug. 29, 2008, 01:05 PM
Sjef has innovated the sport and what the fritz would we even be talking about if he didn't exist?????

Oh, I dunno, perhaps horses that are schooled correctly and humanely and not with brute force and cruelty? He may have 'innovated' the sport, but not in a good way.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 29, 2008, 01:09 PM
I think he's got more brains than the average population plus a heritage of 'knowhow ' in the competitive sports industry- the hair doesn't bother me- it seems very fine to me- because I really couldn't care less about how someone wants to look- as long as their body stats don't interfere with their chosen sport...live and let live..please folks - grow up..the next generation will leave you in the dust- if you dont...LOL!!!
Sjef has innovated the sport and what the fritz would we even be talking about if he didn't exist?????

Sabine, I don't really care about his hair or his clothes! I was only teasing! I used to be a fashion designer and have had my hair just about every color you can imagine at one point or another, including a few in the punk spectrum (this was in London and Paris -- a while ago!). I am all for individual style. And I *like* Duran Duran and Rod Stewart ; ).

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 29, 2008, 01:14 PM
Oh, I dunno, perhaps horses that are schooled correctly and humanely and not with brute force and cruelty? He may have 'innovated' the sport, but not in a good way.

Okay, I have to ask. Is there any evidence that he uses brute force and cruelty to train horses as opposed to acceptable methods? Can you give me an example of brute force and cruel? I am asking sincerely, because people have different notions of what constitutes cruelty (some PETA types, for example, might think horse ownership is per se cruel and riding them per se brutal). Others point to Roll***, etc. I just want to be sure we are all on the same page here. I also would like to know if there is any legitimate basis for these statements, or if they are just assumptions based on rumors based on yet more assumptions based on a suspicion.

Kareen
Aug. 29, 2008, 02:34 PM
It's not just about rolling horses' necks... Would be bad enough if it were. I honestly hope the man gets some kind of therapy one day :( His vocabulary is offensive, he has a significant lack of self control which has often enough been displayed in public and semi-public. The people to feel sorry for really are his closest relatives.

Pommederue
Aug. 29, 2008, 05:58 PM
[quote=Kareen;3483443 I honestly hope the man gets some kind of therapy one day :( His vocabulary is offensive, he has a significant lack of self control which has often enough been displayed in public and semi-public. The people to feel sorry for really are his closest relatives.[/quote]

Sounds like you're describing John McEnroe. :yes:

kkj
Aug. 29, 2008, 08:08 PM
Sounds like you're describing John McEnroe. :yes:

Funny! I like McEnroe and Rod Stewart, but somehow SJ is just not so cute.

AiryFairy
Aug. 29, 2008, 11:07 PM
It's simple, yes I'm pointing to the "R" word - you just look at the pictures of Anky training, sometimes 20 solid minutes of the horse's chin cranked to his chest with the curb fully employed the whole time, neck broken in the wrong place and flexed beyond what the horse could maintain himself for more than a few seconds. That is only obtained by brute force, the horse is not a willing partner and is not willingly submissive. Forgive the title of this video, it's not mine, just look at the pictures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqLZCG-ctuw
How any decent rider could look at those pictures and NOT see cruelty is amazing to me. To have fashioned this abuse as some sort of "unique training method" is beyond the pale. I consider bad horsemanship to be cruelty.

When you learned to ride with a full bridle, weren't you taught to ride off the snaffle and just use the curb infrequently for control? I was. So why is it necessary to work a horse for 20 minutes with the curb yanked so tight the horse is gaping his mouth to get away from it? Just because Anky keeps them in a nice dry barn and gives them food does not mean they don't suffer, and I think Sjef is a brutal trainer. That's not what classical dressage is supposed to be.



Okay, I have to ask. Is there any evidence that he uses brute force and cruelty to train horses as opposed to acceptable methods? Can you give me an example of brute force and cruel? I am asking sincerely, because people have different notions of what constitutes cruelty (some PETA types, for example, might think horse ownership is per se cruel and riding them per se brutal). Others point to Roll***, etc. I just want to be sure we are all on the same page here. I also would like to know if there is any legitimate basis for these statements, or if they are just assumptions based on rumors based on yet more assumptions based on a suspicion.

freestyle2music
Aug. 30, 2008, 09:42 AM
A wonderfull statement I found on another BB :


Salinero has very flashy movement. Salinero and Anky win over and over and over again. You can gripe all you want to but it starts to sound like you think the judges are all a bunch of idiots. And surely, you don't think that, do you?

There are only a small number of possibilities:
1) people want flashy movements and that is what is rewarded in the show ring
2) classical dressage is becoming less relevant to competitive dressage
3) the judges are blind or idiots
4) what you (any number of "you") want to see is not in accord with what is looked for at international competitions
5) Salinero/Anky really are just that good but you don't like the training method so you pick apart the ride

Most threads here act like the issue is 3)....the judges are blind or idiots.

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 10:30 AM
You have forgotten a number of possibilities.

1. "Flashy" means the horse lifts his legs and bends his knees, and this is associated with saddlebred and gaited horses, which are considered the anathema of dressage, some sort of evil, cruel, degenerate horse torture created by spraying fire extinguishers at the horses and putting 2-3 lb shoes on each of their feet, together with overdosing them on steroids til they founder, and, perhaps borrowed from other types of riding, putting some sort of painful acid on their legs, oh, and tieing their heads up like Black Beauty's friend Ginger, who in the book, 'Black Beauty', died. Tragically. For man's vanity alone. What was man's vanity? Trying to make him 'flashy'.

2. "Flashy" means the horse picks up his legs and bends his knees, which means that he is not relaxed, and he is unhappy.

3. "Flashy" means the horse does not look like a show hunter or a Western Pleasure horse, which is what most Americans rode before they got interested in dressage. In those types of riding, what most people have absorbed is that the horse must never lift his head or his knees and hocks. DOWN BOY DOWN! When they got into dressage, they assumed that any horse that lifted its legs was 'incorrect' and 'wrongly trained'. They continued to think this, regardless of what other information might be available. Looking at all the horses around them, who are shuffling along with straight legs, confirms their opinion.

4. "Flashy', if due to a horse naturally having a round, active stride that is accentuated by collection, extra energy and the exciting show atmosphere, looks 'wrong' to most American riders, even those with years of dressage experience - at intro, training and first level.

5. Upper level dressage, as well as lower level dressage, is judged exactly as Western Pleasure and Lady's Pleasure is judged at saddle club shows all over the USA - the judge stands in the middle of the ring and watches like a hawk to be sure the horse NEVER lifts his head or his knees, and is 'consistent', which is to say, he never shows any signs of life, and goes around and around the ring like a battery operated pull toy.

6. Anything Anky van Grunsven's horses do is wrong, and is seen 'Through a Glass Darkly'.

7. Andalusians, Lipizanners, Friesians, Lusitanos and other breeds lift their knees and legs, but they are Baroque, so it's ok when they do it. Warmbloods shouldn't be lifting their legs. When they do, they are unhappy, tense, or incorrectly trained.

8. The reason the judges don't see how terribly wrong Anky's horses are, is that, completely out of character with the usual vehemently held opinionatedness of most dressage judges that they were put on this earth to smite and humiliate ANYONE who doesn't do the classical principles of dressage correctly (take a lesson from one of them sometime if you doubt they're on that particular mission), they just - for no particular reason other than she stinks and had two brothers who had jumpers - LIKE her. So they just hand her score after score after score of perfection, even though she is absolute shit. Because every one of them is corrupt, blind, and all they want to do is sell horses, and SOMEHOW - Anky helps them do that.

:lol:

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2008, 10:45 AM
You have forgotten a number of possibilities.

1. "Flashy" means the horse lifts his legs and bends his knees, and this is associated with saddlebred and gaited horses, which are considered the anathema of dressage, some sort of evil, cruel, degenerate horse torture created by spraying fire extinguishers at the horses and putting 2-3 lb shoes on each of their feet, together with overdosing them on steroids til they founder, and, perhaps borrowed from other types of riding, putting some sort of painful acid on their legs, oh, and tieing their heads up like Black Beauty's friend Ginger, who in the book, 'Black Beauty', died. Tragically. For man's vanity alone. What was man's vanity? Trying to make him 'flashy'.

2. "Flashy" means the horse picks up his legs and bends his knees, which means that he is not relaxed, and he is unhappy.

3. "Flashy" means the horse does not look like a show hunter or a Western Pleasure horse, which is what most Americans rode before they got interested in dressage. In those types of riding, what most people have absorbed is that the horse must never lift his head or his knees and hocks. DOWN BOY DOWN! When they got into dressage, they assumed that any horse that lifted its legs was 'incorrect' and 'wrongly trained'. They continued to think this, regardless of what other information might be available. Looking at all the horses around them, who are shuffling along with straight legs, confirms their opinion.

4. "Flashy', if due to a horse naturally having a round, active stride that is accentuated by collection, extra energy and the exciting show atmosphere, looks 'wrong' to most American riders, even those with years of dressage experience - at intro, training and first level.

5. Upper level dressage, as well as lower level dressage, is judged exactly as Western Pleasure and Lady's Pleasure is judged at saddle club shows all over the USA - the judge stands in the middle of the ring and watches like a hawk to be sure the horse NEVER lifts his head or his knees, and is 'consistent', which is to say, he never shows any signs of life, and goes around and around the ring like a battery operated pull toy.

6. Anything Anky van Grunsven's horses do is wrong, and is seen 'Through a Glass Darkly'.

7. Andalusians, Lipizanners, Friesians, Lusitanos and other breeds lift their knees and legs, but they are Baroque, so it's ok when they do it. Warmbloods shouldn't be lifting their legs. When they do, they are unhappy, tense, or incorrectly trained.

8. The reason the judges don't see how terribly wrong Anky's horses are, is that, completely out of character with the usual vehemently held opinionatedness of most dressage judges that they were put on this earth to smite and humiliate ANYONE who doesn't do the classical principles of dressage correctly (take a lesson from one of them sometime if you doubt they're on that particular mission), they just - for no particular reason other than she stinks and had two brothers who had jumpers - LIKE her. So they just hand her score after score after score of perfection, even though she is absolute shit. Because every one of them is corrupt, blind, and all they want to do is sell horses, and SOMEHOW - Anky helps them do that.

:lol:

:lol::lol::lol:
I may need to have this laminated and post it in my barn.

Kareen
Aug. 30, 2008, 10:45 AM
What the heck are you talking about? I l-o-v-e Salinero. I'm a Hanoverian breeder for heaven's sake?! Seriously I think you are way off base with your sarcasm here. I yet have to see a post from anybody who does not adore these horse's qualities?

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 10:49 AM
Kareen...have you...have you been living on K-Pax for a very long time?:D

The only thing people hate more than Anky is Salinero.

It's all in the media. Rembrandt was adored, a media darling, the OH I LOFF HIM horse of the century for the bulletin boards, 10 times tougher, 10 times spookier, Nicole Uphoff had ten times as many bugs in her teeth from that thing exiting stage left from the ring and running back to the barn, NOT just to the bumper car cop horses, but BACK TO THE BARN, over and over, and trained even more in hyperflexion than Salinero.

What was the difference?

Rembrandt was cuter. Nicole had little teeth.

YL, laminate away. I may be despised, but many people BLEAN on my quotes.

Kareen
Aug. 30, 2008, 11:55 AM
No idea what K-Pax is. Remember we aren't all medical happy in this country *LOL*. But no I don't see Salinero as being hated at all. Besides if he was that doesn't have anything to do with Mr.Janssen does it?
The Verband was quite happy to put Salinero and rider on the cover of 'Der Hannoveraner' even repeatedly if I am not mistaken and there are a ton of Salinero fans out here. You are really creating quite a myth here. Maybe it's you who should have a close checkup with your medical cabinet?
Anyways why not just stick to the topic and take this into one of the gazillion Anky van Grunsven or Salinero topics opened by our dear Theo :)

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2008, 12:09 PM
I like Salinero. I am not sure I would want to be the one up on him all the time, but I like him with Anky.

BahamaMama
Aug. 30, 2008, 01:04 PM
I like Salinero. I am not sure I would want to be the one up on him all the time, but I like him with Anky.

Salinero was sold to the US and returned to Anky because nobody could ride him:yes::yes::yes:

hum
Aug. 30, 2008, 01:13 PM
"Rembrandt was cuter. Nicole had little teeth."

There weren't a lot of BB's in 1992, so perhaps not so much of the microscopic internet dissection of riders from that era went on.

Kareen
Aug. 30, 2008, 02:20 PM
Lucky them hehe.

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 03:41 PM
There wasn't a lot of pretty internet at the time, but I've been on the internet since the early 80's, it's been there, just not as popular.

egontoast
Aug. 30, 2008, 04:47 PM
but I've been on the internet since the early 80's

Such stamina. How do you do it? Do you have shares in Depends? :cool:

hum
Aug. 30, 2008, 05:29 PM
There wasn't a lot of pretty internet at the time, but I've been on the internet since the early 80's, it's been there, just not as popular.

I rode my modem to school, barefoot, in the snow, uphill both ways, with my tape drive dragging behind me.

Of course there was internet. There has been internet since the 1960's.

However, there was little to no discussion of international or other riders in that time, nor was there the audience and resultant impact which exists today.

ridgeback
Aug. 30, 2008, 05:31 PM
I rode my modem to school, barefoot, in the snow, uphill both ways, with my tape drive dragging behind me.

Of course there was internet. There has been internet since the 1960's.

However, there was little to no discussion of international or other riders in that time, nor was there the audience and resultant impact which exists today.

Wait a minute there has been internet since the 60's?:confused: I thought Gore invented the internet:lol:

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 06:51 PM
I believe the internet sites for dressage were under sports/dressage. There was a lot of very lively chat, actually, but a much smaller group than these days. I think that was on the arpanet, and it was text based.

"I rode my modem to school, barefoot, in the snow, uphill both ways, with my tape drive dragging behind me."

It was very much like today, just fewer people - but there was a lot of discussion of international competition, actually.

MelantheLLC
Aug. 30, 2008, 07:49 PM
I believe the internet sites for dressage were under sports/dressage. There was a lot of very lively chat, actually, but a much smaller group than these days. I think that was on the arpanet, and it was text based.

"I rode my modem to school, barefoot, in the snow, uphill both ways, with my tape drive dragging behind me."

It was very much like today, just fewer people - but there was a lot of discussion of international competition, actually.

Maybe in the early '90's. Not the early 80's. Not unless a lot of university professors, computer geeks, nsf researchers and military guys were having lively discussions about international dressage competition. ;)

Not that it couldn't have happened, but I think they were more into gaming. :cool:

ideayoda
Aug. 30, 2008, 07:59 PM
Flashy movement is easily created through tension and lack of balance, and the increased tempo (de jour) indicates the later. At one time judges were pledged 'to protect horses and the training methods used against methods de jour; (and I believe that has been cleverly removed, just as the mobility of the jaw has been removed as well).

When judges are told to reward mistake free international tests in meetings, they are doing so. So trainers (with little actual riding experience) can cleverly develop quick fix methods and create precisely that. Create flash and submission, and its now a winning combo (literally) because the basics (pure gaits/relaxation/trust/collection) are no longer valued (in many situations). Worse yet, the eye for those things has all but been forgotten (because its been over a generation). Turning a blind eye is easy, and judging submission is SO much easier (at its most basic level look at a 2nd level test with exercises performed with no collection at all, but call it satisfactory+ and everyone is happy).

Traditional training will always be relevant because it works, routinely, and makes the best of those less than naturally talented horses. And talented horses can have huge holes and still managed to perform.

Training methods ARE readily apparent (rk or not, missing elements, shortfalls in equitation, etc) and manifest in performance.

slc2
Aug. 30, 2008, 08:05 PM
I disagree that none of the judges judge properly any more. It's a terrible accusation and I think extremely unfair to condemn all dressage judges, and to say that no judge judges right or has a good eye any more.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2008, 08:22 PM
When judges are told to reward mistake free international tests in meetings, they are doing so. So trainers (with little actual riding experience) can cleverly develop quick fix methods and create precisely that. Create flash and submission, and its now a winning combo (literally) because the basics (pure gaits/relaxation/trust/collection) are no longer valued (in many situations).


But they are not rewarding mistake-free tests. They are rewarding flash and brilliance over accuracy and consistency -- at least in some instances at the international level. Anky has 3 gold medals. Her last two Olympics were hardly mistake-free. I am not saying that it is necessarily wrong to reward flash, I am just not really sure I have seen any evidence that current trends are a result of a mandate to judges to award mistake-free tests.

And what trainers with little riding experience are coaching international riders? Not Sjef; he was a GP rider. Who?

siegi b.
Aug. 30, 2008, 10:56 PM
ideayoda - you sound like you're really old and are having one of those "things were much better in my day" moments. Just because that's the way you feel doesn't mean that real life is that way.

In my opinion athletes these days have raised the level of difficulty and talent over those competing a generation ago, and, sometimes it's hard for those from the previous era to relate to that. There is always room for improvement and there will always be a better horse or rider - recognize and appreciate that.

P.S.: slc - believe me when I say that folks that used the ARPAnet did NOT engage in realtime dressage discussions. Check you facts before you spout that stuff.

P.P.S.: HUM - you're my kind of person!! :-)

hum
Aug. 30, 2008, 11:10 PM
ideayoda - you sound like you're really old and are having one of those "things were much better in my day" moments. Just because that's the way you feel doesn't mean that real life is that way.

In my opinion athletes these days have raised the level of difficulty and talent over those competing a generation ago, and, sometimes it's hard for those from the previous era to relate to that. There is always room for improvement and there will always be a better horse or rider - recognize and appreciate that.

P.S.: slc - believe me when I say that folks that used the ARPAnet did NOT engage in realtime dressage discussions. Check you facts before you spout that stuff.

P.P.S.: HUM - you're my kind of person!! :-)

Right back at you, Siegi. ;)

Kareen
Aug. 31, 2008, 05:36 AM
So what exactly are this S.J.-person's personal merits in riding? By riding I mean actually sitting on a horse himself and doing something. Are there any pictures/films of horses he trained himself or competed? What did he win and where and when? I've never seen his name pop up in any list before he became Mr.Anky van Grunsven. Possibly I'm just not following the results intense enough but I'd love to hear some more details and/or facts about this part of his career? Especially since someone brought up the idea of him becoming national trainer in some other country than the Netherlands *giggle*

freestyle2music
Aug. 31, 2008, 09:00 AM
ideayoda - you sound like you're really old and are having one of those "things were much better in my day" moments. Just because that's the way you feel doesn't mean that real life is that way.

In my opinion athletes these days have raised the level of difficulty and talent over those competing a generation ago, and, sometimes it's hard for those from the previous era to relate to that. There is always room for improvement and there will always be a better horse or rider - recognize and appreciate that.

P.S.: slc - believe me when I say that folks that used the ARPAnet did NOT engage in realtime dressage discussions. Check you facts before you spout that stuff.

P.P.S.: HUM - you're my kind of person!! :-)

BINGO.:D:D:D

Touchstone Farm
Sep. 1, 2008, 09:57 PM
It's simple, yes I'm pointing to the "R" word - you just look at the pictures of Anky training, sometimes 20 solid minutes of the horse's chin cranked to his chest with the curb fully employed the whole time, neck broken in the wrong place and flexed beyond what the horse could maintain himself for more than a few seconds. That is only obtained by brute force, the horse is not a willing partner and is not willingly submissive. Forgive the title of this video, it's not mine, just look at the pictures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqLZCG-ctuw
How any decent rider could look at those pictures and NOT see cruelty is amazing to me. To have fashioned this abuse as some sort of "unique training method" is beyond the pale. I consider bad horsemanship to be cruelty.

When you learned to ride with a full bridle, weren't you taught to ride off the snaffle and just use the curb infrequently for control? I was. So why is it necessary to work a horse for 20 minutes with the curb yanked so tight the horse is gaping his mouth to get away from it? Just because Anky keeps them in a nice dry barn and gives them food does not mean they don't suffer, and I think Sjef is a brutal trainer. That's not what classical dressage is supposed to be.

Agreed. I get a sick feeling in my stomach seeing those videos, photos and seeing it done "in real life." How can that be fair to a horse? When I ride my G.P. horse, it feels easy and more like a dance. The rolkeur type of training looks ugly and forced. (Legs braced out in front; curb horizontal to the ground; horse's chin to chest?) I honestly would not let Anky or Sjef sit on my horse. She doesn't deserve that! (Not that I would ever expect a knock on my barn door, asking for the opportunity! :-) )Again, how can someone look at the rolkeur training "method" and not feel a hint of doubt that it is not fair to the horse? I don't care if it "wins." Sometimes the end doesn't justify the means.

Sabine
Sep. 1, 2008, 11:48 PM
So what exactly are this S.J.-person's personal merits in riding? By riding I mean actually sitting on a horse himself and doing something. Are there any pictures/films of horses he trained himself or competed? What did he win and where and when? I've never seen his name pop up in any list before he became Mr.Anky van Grunsven. Possibly I'm just not following the results intense enough but I'd love to hear some more details and/or facts about this part of his career? Especially since someone brought up the idea of him becoming national trainer in some other country than the Netherlands *giggle*

Are you kidding?? There is a tool named Google- it will save me words and give you a nice explanation...

In deutsch sagen wir: Hochmut kommt vor den Fall....in diesem Fall sehr angemessen!- ein bisschen Respekt wuerde einen besseren Eindruck machen!

Sabine
Sep. 1, 2008, 11:49 PM
Agreed. I get a sick feeling in my stomach seeing those videos, photos and seeing it done "in real life." How can that be fair to a horse? When I ride my G.P. horse, it feels easy and more like a dance. The rolkeur type of training looks ugly and forced. (Legs braced out in front; curb horizontal to the ground; horse's chin to chest?) I honestly would not let Anky or Sjef sit on my horse. She doesn't deserve that! (Not that I would ever expect a knock on my barn door, asking for the opportunity! :-) )Again, how can someone look at the rolkeur training "method" and not feel a hint of doubt that it is not fair to the horse? I don't care if it "wins." Sometimes the end doesn't justify the means.

I am with you!

Kareen
Sep. 2, 2008, 03:14 AM
Ok let's see: If I do a search in English for sjef janssen placings the following is the first that pops up:
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/archive/index.php/t-93197.html

Then there's some stuff about him as a 'trainer' plus promo work for AvG's clothing brand in Japan. Nothing else.

Google search for 'rider Sjef Janssen' doesn't bring up anything either. Has he ever sat on a horse? Can I see video? Hey everything's on youtube nowadays. There must be 'something' no? The leads even go to this very topic where Theo brought up the joke of S.J. being *wanted* in the sense of desired as a trainer by... well you know what he wrote :)

A search in German brings up this on page one:

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub9CD731D06F17450CB39BE001000DD173/Doc~E221A48298881469FB6930F41FEB2B318~ATpl~Ecommon ~Scontent.html

Possibly a polite thank you from Mr. Schmezer for the Lingen incident I don't know. Sure enough I am proud someone savvy speaks up in public against all this drama.

Marieke
Sep. 2, 2008, 08:19 AM
my post got eaten.

Sjef competed with at least 2 horses @ GP, one of them Olympic Bo, one stallion. Then he met Anky.

slc2
Sep. 2, 2008, 08:42 AM
I believe sjeff did most of the training on bo.

i think it is almost impossible to compete at the required number of shows, put in the type of mileage and multiple tests (GP, GPS, Freestyle) over the years, what's required at most competitions at that level, get a horse to react to invisible aids, get a horse that never gets tired and keeps going, without getting a horse that is almost completely bananas.

they are just extremely high energy, brilliant horses, very smart, very, very testing of the rider's skills, i just don't think it's possible without that. I think the most winning horses have always been a little bit crazy, i think they have to be. i also think most of the horses than win and win and win came to their riders by rather odd routes. they were rejected by others, they were very poorly regarded initially (ahlerich), etc.

jan bemelmans had an interesting interview about how he competed on a horse that was not sensitive many years ago and how difficult it was, this was over 30 yrs ago, with less mileage, less travel, fewer shows, a shorter season, and fewer tests, and this is not now with the 'bad judges who can't judge'.

Kareen
Sep. 2, 2008, 08:46 AM
Sorry for the hungry board. Thank you for the hint. So Oron was the one and Olympic Bo the other (the later Rothenberger-mount) and he was Dutch champion in 1983 as well as placed 8th individual in European Championships twice (1984 and 1991). That'll do :)

slc2
Sep. 2, 2008, 08:57 AM
the dutch championships are almost and the european championships are definitely harder to place or win in than the WEG or Olympics.

freestyle2music
Sep. 2, 2008, 09:29 AM
You all seem to forget that Sjef also trained and rode/rides all other horses of Anky, when she was pregnant, injured or had a very busy businness agenda.

It made some people even joke "Anky should become pregnant more often", because Sjef did a wonderfull job solving the xxxxxx problem of Salinero.

For me Sjef is not a competition rider at all, but I don't think that this is his ambition or ever has been his ambition.

petitefilly
Sep. 2, 2008, 01:39 PM
The question remains: Are there any videos of him riding anywhere? I would be curious to see them. :)

YankeeLawyer
Sep. 2, 2008, 01:42 PM
I just wanted to point out that some of the greatest trainers are not the best riders, and vice versa. It happens that Sjef did show through GP. But whether he is a superb rider or not does not necessarily correlate to his aptitude as a trainer.

slc2
Sep. 2, 2008, 02:36 PM
Somewhere I did see a video of him riding. He rode very well. Absolutely still, very quiet hands, very good position. There are some pictures of him riding in Dirk Rosie's book on selecting dressage horses. The horse looks very normal, poll highest, well engaged, etc.

Rehbein for example wasn't always the most equitationally perfect rider, but he had 'Tranquilizers in his hands'. He was incredible, what he could do.

freestyle2music
Sep. 2, 2008, 07:27 PM
You can find everything in the Dutch Wikipedia of Dressage.

slc2
Sep. 2, 2008, 08:18 PM
Can you post a link to that?

canyonoak
Sep. 2, 2008, 11:08 PM
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sjef_Janssen_(paardensport)

I think Sjef will be regarded same as Fillis, Baucher, and a few others--as a highly significant innovator of a sport.

slc2
Sep. 2, 2008, 11:09 PM
I don't see either Baucher or Fillis as a positive influence.

canyonoak
Sep. 2, 2008, 11:12 PM
Whether you see them as positive or not--they are among the handful of names that are known, precisely because they caused others to THINK about their own principles, their own process and system.

I absolutely will not get pulled in to any discussion about Sjef, Anky, etc.

slc2
Sep. 2, 2008, 11:18 PM
i would like to know what you think of them, you can pm, i will not offer any criticism. i am just interested in your POV.

egontoast
Sep. 3, 2008, 05:32 AM
Be careful.

Your words will likely show up in some future core dump on the subject.

slc2
Sep. 3, 2008, 06:42 AM
nope.

but she's unlikely to discuss it - 'won't be drawn into' sounds pretty final.

i'm curious to hear what various opinions there are for and against - that's not really possible on this BB.

egontoast
Sep. 3, 2008, 07:38 AM
but she's unlikely to discuss it - 'won't be drawn into' sounds pretty final.


I think that is very wise. Pms included.

Sabine
Sep. 4, 2008, 01:10 AM
I don't see either Baucher or Fillis as a positive influence.

That only means that you have not read enough and experienced enough...get out there and do that....and then report back ;)!!

This statement- was the equivalent of dropping your veil...HEY THERE!!!

slc2
Sep. 4, 2008, 06:37 AM
Wow - if someone doesn't agree with your opinion, it is because they haven't tried hard enough, or are not educated or well read enough?

Sorry, not buying. That is a very, very old saw. And still doesn't work. I understand what good they have both done, I don't think it's sufficient to offset the problems created. That's my opinion. Baucher was extremely controversial during his lifetime and there IS a reason for that. There are extensive writings on the not-so-much-admiring side.

This is my feeling about it - almost every horse trainer has taken away little bits and pieces of Fillis and Baucher to their tool box, but not the whole ball of wax.

The people who disagreed with him were not disagreeing because they were not well enough read. They watched him, they didn't like it, on the whole, they disagreed with what he was doing. There were numerous tracts published during that time 'Against Baucher'. Yes, yes, I've read all the 'you're only against it because you're not talented enough to do it', and I don't buy that either. As well as the 'the Germans want to take over the world, Baucher was in the way'. Nope. Don't buy that either. Anti-baucherist writings also came out of the SRS, so it wasn't just a 'German thing'.

Being against Baucher's influence and method or many parts of it, is a valid position for a dressage rider to take. It does not need to be explained ad nauseum.

Sorry, I don't agree with doing GP in six months from breaking, yes I have seen the proponents 'piaffing' on just-backed young horses. I don't like it. Also the cantering backwards, or a lot of the rest of it, especially the overuse of the hand and 'lightness' obtained in that way from the bridle. There are a few tricks I can take away, like Philippe Carl, but even at that, I have even seen the tricks done better, and boy I think one better be real careful.

Yes, I've seen the 'wonderful' videos of one of his inventions - cantering backwards - they make me sick. I think it looks absolutely horrible, and to see someone do that for 20 min on a stone patio doesn't impress me either. I would never work with someone who would do that or even make positive statements about riding that way. Same with much of what he did. I don't find the jambette at the canter or ANY of the work that came out of that phase as 'classical' dressage.

Classical dressage is about pure gaits, first and foremost. There is a TON of stuff that was done in the old days that does not fit that requirement, old or not, it doesn't fit that definition.

Whether it's fascinating or dramatic looking or not, it still doesn't fit that requirement. Just because something is old or unfamiliar or not in the GP test today, doesn't automatically mean it passes that requirement.

That's why most of that stuff is not done at the Spanish Riding School. Notice the Spanish Riding School isn't going around cantering backwards, lifting heads with the reins, Spanish Walk and all that. There's a reason for that. I think of them most of the time as the bellwether. If they're not doing ABC, there's a reason. A good reason.

The reason there was such an outcry against the 1 tempe changes Baucher supposedly invented was because they looked like the description given - a lateral gait, not by any stretch a canter, as one writer said, 'a kind of amble' (meaning a pacing gait). The first objection made was that the horse was not cantering, and that's where the objection came from.

It took YEARS to dispell the horrible impression of the manouver and to get it into the GP test and for people to develop it as a 3 beat canter gait. No one with any classical background would accept such a horrid looking thing. It has to be done in a pure canter stride to be acceptable.

In fact, I have spent a lot of time studying both, picked thru Racinet on Baucher line by line, and have seen how Fillis directly affected Russian dressage, and read much about Baucher on his death bed saying, 'I was wrong'. Baucher also completely recanted his first work phase.

Sorry, not buying it - cutting someone down and saying they haven't tried enough if they don't agree with you. It's perfectly alright for me to be in the not-so-much-admiring Baucher camp, I would take a couple tricks away, but not many, same with Fillis.

It's not a small camp, and as far as further 'defenses' of my position or 'answering questions' that are couched in insults and ridicule, that's not going to happen, that is no way to have a discussion.

Anyone who is interested in the other side can do their own research. I'm not interested in 'converting' anyone.

egontoast
Sep. 4, 2008, 08:05 AM
I guess you touched a nerve, Sabine.:lol:

BahamaMama
Sep. 4, 2008, 01:07 PM
Sjef already decided. National coach and president of the Bahamas:D

slc2
Sep. 4, 2008, 07:12 PM
No, nobody hit a nerve. If I don't reply, I'm a hypocrit and a coward and can't stand to be proven wrong, if I do reply, someone 'hit a nerve' and I am some sort of virtual catfish that got speared.

Egon, are you not feeling well? That was real weak. Where's the personal insults, accusations of lying and hypocrisy?:lol::lol:

hum
Sep. 4, 2008, 07:47 PM
Do you people really aspire to have every thread in which you post locked?
The posturing and arguing is really beyond belief. If you are that intelligent and that versed in dressage history/training/gossip/whatever, please be so kind as to share your knowledge (if it is real knowledge) with the folks on this board who might like to have it.

If you would like to fight, I suggest that you take it outside. :lol:

Thanks!!

Hum

ridgeback
Sep. 4, 2008, 07:53 PM
I rode my modem to school, barefoot, in the snow, uphill both ways, with my tape drive dragging behind me.

Of course there was internet. There has been internet since the 1960's.

However, there was little to no discussion of international or other riders in that time, nor was there the audience and resultant impact which exists today.

hmmm I think SLC and EGON are just playing like you must have been when you wrote this;)

hum
Sep. 4, 2008, 08:14 PM
Oh, of course, how silly of me not to notice. Was that with or without horseshoes in the gloves?

Sabine
Sep. 5, 2008, 12:11 AM
No, nobody hit a nerve. If I don't reply, I'm a hypocrit and a coward and can't stand to be proven wrong, if I do reply, someone 'hit a nerve' and I am some sort of virtual catfish that got speared.

Egon, are you not feeling well? That was real weak. Where's the personal insults, accusations of lying and hypocrisy?:lol::lol:

HUM and Slc2:
an environment in which people are not really committed to the same thing- everyday AND actively doing so- does not foster an equal and fair and open exchange of information.
If that is attempted- as I have in the past- it quickly gets cut down and twisted by those that are not willing to read, ride and experience.
I am not a snob by any means but I have found that my energies are better spent on other things than trying to educate the anonymous masses on the internet about books that are to say the least 'tough' to read and even tougher to understand and use in your daily training.
I do believe and stand by my post that both Baucher and Fillis have TREMENDOUSLY contributed and elevated certain elements of horse training- even if their bios don't aspire you to train and use your horses as they did. There was tremendous innovation in their work and valid improvement in the way horses were understood - if you see it in the context of their time and the types of horses they were riding.
Sjef could be fitting into that category in that he was and is courageous enough to plow his own path and follow what he believes a recipe that leads him to success.

There will always be horses that don't fit into that program - and they suffer or get destroyed...so do kids in the wrong schools, wives with the wrong husbands ....countries with the wrong leaders....

slc2
Sep. 5, 2008, 12:38 PM
If someone reads a book and doesn't like it as much as you, if someone reads a different book instead, they are not committed to working at something?

This has nothing to do with me not being well read or me not being committed to something, or you being better read and more committed. Why is it that you have to get personal and insulting just because someone wants to train a horse differently from something in a book?

I read Baucher. I don't have a different opinion from you because I haven't read him - I HAVE.

The thing I can't fathom is how anyone could be logically for Baucher and against Rollkur:

"His method of severe bending of the horse's neck towards his chest and torso has also has had great criticism, many people believing that it is exceptionally harsh and uncomfortable for the animal. It is still employed today, however, with the methods of rollkur showing great similarities." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francois_Baucher)

There are other sides to the Baucher business, such as:

Louis Seeger actually observed first hand Baucher's horses, and rode them. His description of this is a devastating condemnation of the methods, both the technical evaluation and the cruelty, especially in the severe and constant use of the whip, as Seeger described it.

Karl Mikolka's wonderful article:

http://www.angelfire.com/sports/dressage/pages/Karl.html

This article is a must read for those who want to hear the other side. Karl Mikolka is one of the greatest people to come out of the Spanish Riding School, in so far as giving a great deal of knowledge to the community over many years (Rochowansky and many others also).

"Among the public, a great majority of admirers celebrated the successes of the master with a truly feverish enthusiasm, but the 'experts', on the other hand, were almost exclusively on the side of his opponents."

-- De Carpentry

"...he most basic tenets of Baucher's beliefs were that (a) work at a standstill, through the use of flexions, would lift the horse's forehand, and that (b) this lifting of the forehand would cause the lowering of the haunches..."

--Jessica Jahiel

"Francois Baucher was not a nobleman nor an officer. He hadn't even learned to ride as a child (??? i think he was at least working in a stable when he was 14...), but came into the dressage world as an antrepreneur. He published "Méthode d'Equitation basée sur de nouveax Principes" in 1842, and created havoc. His methods were unorthodox, and he claimed to train a horse to high-school in a matter of months. He promised to make rideable horses that were untrainable, and all kinds of things that at the time seemed insulting to the few defenders of the old school, mostly a man named D'aure. A war broke out, and people took sides, and countless pamphlets were published where the two tried to grind the other to dust. There was a lot of politics involved, since D'aure was a nobleman and Baucher bourgeois. Also, Baucher rode at the circus to support himself, and this was popular with the general public. The uneducated on the matter were amazed.

The educated on the matter, foremost Louis Seeger also wrote and published several criticisms, most known is "An honest word to Germany's riders". (http://www.angelfire.com/sports/dressage/pages/sumbaucher.html) The taking sides in this dispute has continued to this day, and some riders boast themselves to be "baucherists" while yet others use the expression derogatorily."

--Theresa Sandin

egontoast
Sep. 5, 2008, 03:18 PM
Slc is now quoting the sustainable dressage lady as an authority,:eek:

Pigs have learned to fly and hell hath frozen over.

Slc, there is plenty of disagreement here about EVERYTHING. It's a discussion board. You are one of the sad few who go off the deep end and delivers a google lecture every time someone dares to contradict you.

Relax. Get a thicker skin , stop trying to shut everyone else down and enjoy the discussion.

slc2
Sep. 5, 2008, 07:12 PM
Relax yourself. I'm not upset about any of this, I'm doing this to put off bleaching socks.

I am going to respond though, when someone tells me if i don't agree with them, I'm not 'committed' or it must be that i haven't read him.

The only thing silly about these discussions is your ridiculous picking, and on demanding posts and then ripping them apart. and that some here think there is only one way to view Baucher, as a kind of God. He has always had followers and non followers. to pretend this is not true, to ignore the facts, to discuss only one side of it, is not a realistic discussion.

As for the sustainable dressage lady, she says the same as others have - well, not really others have been much, much more severe in their condemnation of baucher...besides, even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

Sabine
Sep. 6, 2008, 11:59 PM
SLC2 - I am not attacking you in the least. The quotes you have produced are from folks that have a reason to see just ONE side of what he produced. Read his 2nd book- read it and TRY it ON A HORSE!
There are many valid points to it- there are realizations that are far reaching- they are used as part in many current competitors riding.... and get over the fact that everything has to be soo emotional.
Seeger might as well have carved the german flag on his forehead...you don't seem to understand history- this was a fierce hatred at the time between the camps....

no more comment- it is fruitless...

J-Lu
Sep. 9, 2008, 01:24 AM
Relax yourself. I'm not upset about any of this, I'm doing this to put off bleaching socks. .

As for the sustainable dressage lady, she says the same as others have - well, not really others have been much, much more severe in their condemnation of baucher...besides, even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

SLC2, this last sentance shows you've not actually read Sabine's post or understand the history of dressage training. What a condescending sentance ("even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes" - you've got to be kidding!!!!!!!!!!). Your post said that you don't see Baucher and Fillis as positive influences on the sport. That's a pretty strong statement given their places in history. You went on to uniformly condemn Baucher. I would love to see you compare and contrast his first and second methods and then explain how his overall influence was negative *in your own words* - not quotes by others. Wikopedia does not count. I would love to see evidence of your ability as a rider/trainer as well.

Sabine reads and rides. She rides with an excellent trainer (who rode for the US) on very nice horses she brings along herself. I've seen pictures of her competently riding her very nice horses. Her money is where her mouth is. Your experience is... ???

My point is not to pick a fight, but to wonder why you leap to conclusions about classical trainers and then argue with people who actually read and successfully *practice* the methods to understand the theory of training horses for dressage...under the guidance of very accomplished trainers. It is beyond the sometimes difficult semantics of people like Baucher and Muller and more into the practice of the ideas they tried to describe. You, me, all of us have a lot to learn from each other here. You are foolish to discount Sabine's posts. And you are, in my opinion, naive to think that baucher was *nothing* but a negative influence.

Just my naive and foolish opinion.

sm
Sep. 9, 2008, 03:44 PM
Just my naive and foolish opinion.

... have an opinion as naive as you like, knock yourself out. Just stay within forum rules 1, 2, and 3: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/announcement.php?f=96&a=23

slc2
Sep. 9, 2008, 04:08 PM
Unless Sabine is attacking her horse with the spur and cantering backwards and doing a whole lot of other things, she isn't really 'training like Baucher', even his second manner. Seeger's description of Baucher's methods and results are horrendous - horses on the forehand, stiff, just awful. I don't think that was entirely politics. There are images and other descriptions of baucher. I don't really think Sabine rides like that. More likely, she is interested in Baucher academically, as just about every horse person is, and has done what just about evee ryone else has - borrowed bits and pieces of Baucher's practices, as most training systems do, to one degree or another.

J-Lu, it's popular on these BB's to adore certain horse people and to believe certain things about equine history. Deb Bennet is regarded on most BB's as THE authority on early horses and many horsey subjects. She isn't regarded as the sole authority in other circles.

I can an assure you, there are other places where the feelings about issues of history, trainers, Baucher, others, is very different. This is one place, one set of popular beliefs, that's all it is.

It's completely OK for me to be in a "I don't like Baucher's whole ball of wax" camp. And if you recall, if you read what I said, I didn't say everything he did was wrong, I said I didn't like the whole overall picture, and a whole lot of other people don't like it iether.

There isn't any reason I have to agree with his methods as a whole. There are quite a few people who aren't Baucher fans and there were vitriolic condemnations of him to this day, even eye witness accounts that are horrifying.

At the same time, I do know that there's plenty that all riders do bits and pieces that Baucher did. Much of what he did has a much longer tradition than his use of it. He's credited with inventing one time changes, I know. I don't think he did, actually - largely because dozens of people take credit for each of those things from the double bridle to the piaffe. I think most of those things developed over time and no one person invented them.

Like most things, this is an opinion, you have your opinion, I have mine. And as far as 'justifying' my opinion, I don't see you doing what you're telling me I have to do.

Which is prove to me why you shoiuld be allowed to have your opinion.

You say I'm not doing that - I say, why are you asking me to do somethign you haven't done? How do YOU justify holding someone up as a genius when he got the kind of eye witness reports Seeger provided us with, about him using the whip with an endless, relentless force and intensity the entire time he was on the horse?

You want to get all bent out of shape because I don't completely agree with something that was in a book printed 158 years ago - go right ahead. I don't want to teach my horses to canter backwards, or use 'l'attaque' of the spurs, or many of the things Baucher did, or to the extent and intensity he did. I have a way I like to train my horses that to me produces a calmer, more balanced result. I like it.

egontoast
Sep. 9, 2008, 08:38 PM
Why so defensive,slc? If you were so confident in your views you would not need to always bludgeon anyone who dares to have a different opinion with yet another of your strident lectures.

Calm down. You seem to be very easily upset by differing opinions. People are allowed to have different opinions. I don't see Sabine telling people they must canter backwards. Is that like back pedaling? :lol:

Sabine
Sep. 9, 2008, 11:49 PM
... have an opinion as naive as you like, knock yourself out. Just stay within forum rules 1, 2, and 3: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/announcement.php?f=96&a=23

SM-you are not a moderator. SLC2 attacked me and quoted my post as singling her out and attacking her- which I didn't do- I just defended my view that Baucher has contributed greatly through his books (2nd manner specifically) in modern riding.

J-Lu felt compelled to defend me- after Slc2 again took it personal. I am only asking for a fair consideration of the man's contribution. Anyone who has spent at least a couple of hours studying the history and the riding styles of those times will find that Fillis specifically and Baucher in this second manner greatly contributed in thought and technique to the views that until then where only based on pure german traditionalists. That yet another German took to fiercely defending the 'german style' was to be expected. However if you can read all those books (which anyone truly interested should do-if you only read the 'short' version) you will find that this was more than just about training techniques. At the times this was a highly popular pasttime- an important part of life as horses were still heavily used for utilitarian purposes and because training and the idealization of the beauty of the horse combined with the possiblities and added beauty of a highly trained horse was considered a social achievement, an upgrade in social standing.

There is no war to be fought here and no points to be gained. As mentioned previously it is completely futile as long as noone else has read these books and understands the context.