PDA

View Full Version : What is Capsaicin?



Pages : [1] 2

ClearviewFarm
Aug. 21, 2008, 08:13 AM
Not trying to start a train wreck, just genuinely want to know what this substance is and why it is so "bad". It seems as if it is natural, derived from chili peppers. Is the FEI too strict? Do they not allow ANY substances at all, or just within "therapeutic" levels?

Please inform.

yaya
Aug. 21, 2008, 08:32 AM
FEI operates under "no foreign substances".

And just because it's natural doesn't mean it is innocuous. Where do you think most drugs started? Plants!

Oldenburg Mom
Aug. 21, 2008, 08:46 AM
From Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of ... capsaicin??? :lol:
------------------------
Capsaicin /ˌkæpˈseˌɪ.sɪn/ (8-methyl-N-vanillyl-6-nonenamide) is the active component of chili peppers, which are plants belonging to the genus Capsicum. It is an irritant for mammals, including humans, and produces a sensation of burning in any tissue with which it comes into contact. Capsaicin and several related compounds are called capsaicinoids and are produced as a secondary metabolite by chili peppers, probably as deterrents against herbivores. Pure capsaicin is a hydrophobic, colorless, odorless, crystalline to waxy compound.
Contents

History

The molecule was first isolated in 1816 in crystalline form by P. A. Bucholz and again 30 years later by L.T. Thresh, who gave it the name "capsaicion."[1] In 1878, the Hungarian doctor Endre Hogyes (calling it capsicol) isolated it and proved that it not only caused the burning feeling when in contact with mucous membranes but also increased secretion of gastric juice. The structure of capsaicin was partly elucidated by E. K. Nelson in 1919.[2] Capsaicin was first synthesized in 1930 by E. Spath and F. S. Darling. In 1961, similar substances were isolated from chili peppers by the Japanese chemists S. Kosuge and Y. Inagaki, who named them capsaicinoids.[3] [4]

Capsaicinoids

Capsaicin is the main capsaicinoid in chili peppers, followed by dihydrocapsaicin. These two compounds are also about twice as potent to the taste and nerves as the minor capsaicinoids nordihydrocapsaicin, homodihydrocapsaicin, and homocapsaicin. Dilute solutions of pure capsaicinoids produced different types of pungency; however, these differences were not noted using more concentrated solutions.
Capsaicin is believed to be synthesized in the interlocular septa of chili peppers by addition of a branched-chain fatty acid to vanillylamine. Biosynthesis depends on the gene AT3, which resides at the pun1 locus, and which encodes a putative acyltransferase.[5]
Besides the six natural capsaicinoids, one synthetic member of the capsaicinoid family exists. Vanillylamide of n-nonanoic acid (VNA) is used as a reference substance for determining the relative pungency of capsaicinoids.

Natural function

Capsaicin is present in large quantities in the placental tissue (which holds the seeds), the internal membranes and, to a lesser extent, the other fleshy parts of the fruits of plants in the genus Capsicum. Contrary to popular belief, the seeds themselves do not produce any capsaicin, although the highest concentration of capsaicin can be found in the white pith around the seeds.[6] The seeds of Capsicum plants are predominantly dispersed by birds, as birds lack the receptor to detect capsaicin (i.e., because they cannot sense capsaicin, it is not an irritant to birds). Chili pepper seeds consumed by birds pass through the digestive tract unharmed, whereas those consumed by mammals do not germinate at all. The presence of capsaicin in the fruits therefore protects them from being consumed by mammals.

In 2006 it was discovered that tarantula venom activates the same pathway of pain as is activated by capsa

ridgeback
Aug. 21, 2008, 08:49 AM
That is why you saw quite a few lame/uneven horses in dressage they tend not to break the rules like the show jumpers but many could have used a little help.

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 08:53 AM
That is why you saw quite a few lame/uneven horses in dressage they tend not to break the rules like the show jumpers but many could have used a little help.


This is so good to know! And here I was operating under the assumption they used the same testing protocols and testing labs for ALL THREE Olympic disciplines! Glad to hear the jumpers get cut some slack! D'ya suppose they lose the samples of some riders/teams?

:rolleyes:

ridgeback are you sure you aren't alysheba back under a new name?

eurodressage
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:04 AM
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08og/pr_doping.html

JanM
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:07 AM
I just saw the news-if Norway's team is DQ'd then I guess Britain gets the team bronze.
How unfortunate to have this happen after the problems in Athens.

nycjumper
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:13 AM
DMK - you know it's only the jumpers that are dirty. I mean look at McLain ;)

ridgeback
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:16 AM
This is so good to know! And here I was operating under the assumption they used the same testing protocols and testing labs for ALL THREE Olympic disciplines! Glad to hear the jumpers get cut some slack! D'ya suppose they lose the samples of some riders/teams?

:rolleyes:

ridgeback are you sure you aren't alysheba back under a new name?

Did you not read where I said 'That is why you saw quite a few lame/uneven horses in dressage they tend not to break the rules like the show jumpers but many could have used a little help." Where did I say they weren't operating under the same drug testing rules...Meaning the dressage riders aren't using drugs...DUH and if you think I'm someone called alysheba ask the modertors to check my IP not to mention a few months ago I gave my first and last name:lol::rolleyes::sigh: Please read before you attack..
__________________

Carrera
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:16 AM
Ok so I get what it is...but what effect are people trying to acheive using this?

ridgeback
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:17 AM
I just saw the news-if Norway's team is DQ'd then I guess Britain gets the team bronze.
How unfortunate to have this happen after the problems in Athens.

That would be Switzerland.. Great Britian was 7th.
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C73SB/EQX402103.shtml#EQX402103

squiggle
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:20 AM
Well, it's a topical substance, so maybe applying it to the front of the legs so that the horse's won't want to touch rails?

Also, since it's topical how easy would it be for someone to sneak around the barns and smear some on a bunch of horses as a measure of sabotage? Especially since it's horses from a bunch of different countries with the exact same substance? Not saying that's the case of course, just wondering...

War Admiral
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:24 AM
Ok so I get what it is...but what effect are people trying to acheive using this?

It's a pain killer.

When the OTC product Equi-Block came out, it originally contained shedloads of capsaicin. Once the federations started testing for it they made another version & now there are two versions of that product... one for horses who are not subject to drug testing and another for those who are!

ClearviewFarm
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:25 AM
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08og/pr_doping.html

Thank you, that was very informative.

adelmo95
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:27 AM
Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I would suspect that it was not being used as a pain reliever. Having used some pain relievers myself (when not competing) with capsaicin in them I can tell you that the first few times you use it it BURNS!!!! I learnt that lesson the hard way and always check to see if it is a content as I will never use it again because of that fact. I would suspect that it was being used to produce a similar result as plastic chips in boots etc...

JSwan
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:28 AM
Not trying to start a train wreck, just genuinely want to know what this substance is and why it is so "bad". It seems as if it is natural, derived from chili peppers. Is the FEI too strict? Do they not allow ANY substances at all, or just within "therapeutic" levels?

Please inform.

Not excusing or condoning an intentional act - just so y'all know.

But sometimes I think we need to have a degree in chemistry before going to the feed store. There's all sorts of OTC products that contained banned substances in them. No warning on the label, and the substance may be listed by a different name in the list of ingredients. Or, the consumer just didn't verify that the product was ok to use. I know, ignorance is no excuse. Still - I could imagine a scenario in which an innocent person is found guilty.

I don't know if this is still true in endurance - but years ago I knew of a lady that was accused of giving her horse caffeine. It was true - but the lady was an honest person.... just had been spiking her horse's drinking water with "herbal tea" to encourage him to drink. Turns out the "herbal tea"... had caffeine in it. She was mortified.

Guess things could be different at the upper echelons... but maybe it's still possible for a seemingly benign substance to not be so benign - and the person truly innocent. But how on earth can you defend yourself... I can't think of a way. Even if the rider isn't at fault - he/she is responsible. Maybe there is no way to win once accused.

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:29 AM
It's a topical substance used to kill pain, the last thing you would do is put it on a horse if you wanted him to sting from hitting the rails. It's typically used as an ingredient in overnight hoof packing to take the sting out of feet. In fact it is the ingredient in Magic Cushion, used by damn near everyone (dressage riders included).

However, and speaking hypothetically, if your horse had an abrasion on the bulb of his heel, I can see Magic Cushion getting up in it and subsequently in the system. Given the sensitivity of the ELISA test, it's entirely possible it was used and discontinued well before the competition started. Of course we will never know because they NEVER discuss amounts found in the sample, which to me, does a disservice to all the riders (dressage and show jumping) who have been in this place before.

I mean come one, who here thinks Ludger's case in the last Olympics even began to compare to the Irish guy's case (sorry blanking on his name)?

Ridgeback, your post is just wrong on so many levels it is almost humorous. Last time I laughed that hard it involved sammiches. And trust me, you really don't have to lecture me on mod duties! :lol:

Peggy
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:30 AM
Topical anesthetic is my understanding. In addition to the equiblock, also an ingredient in Magic Cushion hoof packing and some topical preparations for humans. Also present in Black as Knight which is given orally.

belambi
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:30 AM
Correct.

Interesting to remember that the FEI allowed ALL horses the option of FREE testing when they arrived. This means that these products have been used DURING the games?..Is that correct?..If so,life ban is the way to go.

Peggy
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:33 AM
Correct.

Interesting to remember that the FEI allowed ALL horses the option of FREE testing when they arrived. This means that these products have been used DURING the games?..Is that correct?..If so,life ban is the way to go.Not necessarily. They could have opted out of the optional free testing.

belambi
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:33 AM
sorry..wasnt saying correct to anathetic..that would be the WORST thing to do..its a product that stings and burns the flesh when hitting a pole

nycjumper
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:34 AM
belambi - what are you talking about? It's a PAIN KILLER. Did you read DMKs post?

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:35 AM
Correct.

Interesting to remember that the FEI allowed ALL horses the option of FREE testing when they arrived. This means that these products have been used DURING the games?..Is that correct?..If so,life ban is the way to go.

OK, so IF someone used a hoof packing AFTER they arrived and discontinued it BEFORE the competition started, you think a life ban is the correct response?

adelmo95
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:36 AM
Did you notice in the article that it is also described "Capsaicin is classified as a « doping » prohibited substance given its hypersensitizing properties"

belambi
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:37 AM
errr..no..its a naturally found in chilly and peppers etc..and is not ONLY a painkiller.It is often used spread down the front of horses legs in dodgy places to make them snap them up when jumping.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:37 AM
belambi - what are you talking about? It's a PAIN KILLER. Did you read DMKs post?

It can also be used as a hyper-irritant. It's the same stuff that's in Pepper Spray.

ridgeback
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:38 AM
Ridgeback, your post is just wrong on so many levels it is almost humorous. Last time I laughed that hard it involved sammiches. And trust me, you really don't have to lecture me on mod duties! :lol:

Trouble admitting you are wrong:lol::lol: Please explain to me what is wrong? Several lame dressage horses no dressage horses busted for dobing, showjumpers often busted for doping and many dressage horses could have used a little help since they were LAME...hmmm nope not wrong..

Seal Harbor
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:38 AM
It is also on the forbidden list of the USEF! So the FEI is not being *too strict*.

The stuff is found in feed through supplements as well, Gold as Sun has paprika in it. Some folks feed just paprika but take the horses off of it 7-14 days prior to competition, because there is the chance they will test positive for capsaicin.

JanM
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:38 AM
Thanks Ridgeback-I can't make heads or tails of the results pages on NBC.

I can see someone using Capsaicin and then wetting it down or when the horses get sweaty it will sting (apparently on an infrequent application it causes stinging especially when wet)-and then doing a warm up jump, letting the horse hit it and then the horse will definitely pick up the legs. I'm sure there are grooms with the team horses around the clock so I'm not sure the sabotage theory would work, but if they wanted to sabotage a certain team I think they wouldn't do individuals like Lynch (Ireland) who isn't even on a team. And I think that if you wanted to sabotage someone on the German team you would probably go after one or both of the Beerbaum's horses.

belambi
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:39 AM
OK, so IF someone used a hoof packing AFTER they arrived and discontinued it BEFORE the competition started, you think a life ban is the correct response?


of course not..they would have a vet note?.

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:39 AM
I think we can safely work on the assumption that every knowledgeable horse person on the planet does not apply it to achieve that result. Option "b" is the safe bet here. :lol:

ridgeback
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:40 AM
Thanks Ridgeback-I can't make heads or tails of the results pages on NBC.

I

You are very welcome I love that site they give you scores right away..

caffeinated
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:40 AM
More products with capsaicin in it, some of which a lot of us use commonly:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...m?pcatid=16202

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.h...2-00b0d0204ae5 (http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e07e33-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5)

http://www.jacksmfg.com/details.asp?product_id=2042

http://www.jacksmfg.com/details.asp?product_id=2043

http://www.smartpakequine.com/produc...ctClassid=1517

To give more benefit of the doubt, some of the labelling is confusing- if one was looking for "capsaicin" only on the label, they might not notice bigeloil has a derivative (which probably shows up in tests)

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:41 AM
of course not..they would have a vet note?.

Vet notes are worth ... what? Ask the Germans and their team vet about that 2004 team gold.

Equibrit
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:41 AM
Not trying to start a train wreck, just genuinely want to know what this substance is and why it is so "bad".
Please inform.


Cocaine, heroin and marijuana are all "natural".

belambi
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:43 AM
this is FOUR horse picked RANDOMLY.. either all horses have been nobbled..or test is faulty..or all have used a product that they thought couldnt be tested for, ..There is something very bizarre about this

nycjumper
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:43 AM
You're right - how foolish of me not to realize that despite rampant drug tests, it's most logical to assume that 4 high level riders would apply a topical antibiotic, knowing it would probably test & then crashed their horses into warm up fences.

And since it would have to be applied right before jumping in order to be effective, we had best assume that they were liberally slathering their horses legs with the nefarious ointment in front of the FEI stewards.

Your scenario is so much more likely ;)

ceffyl
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:44 AM
Capscain is transdermal. Basically you can have the substance in a liquid or cream or gel form on your hand, pat a horse anywhere on the body, substance would be left in hair / skin contact. As it is an irritant the capillaries would immediately respond with a rush of blood to the area, skin is permeable and substance would then be rapidly absorbed into the blood stream. Spray with the substance in would also have the same quick transdermal effect into the system. Voila.

I still cannot think how on earth 4 would be so stupid as to do this. And actually a skin scraping off the legs would definately confirm if it had been used as a sensitiser there.

It is found in dozens of over the counter at any health food shop muscle rubs - Tiger Balm, Chinese Green Oil, etc. Sprays - Deep Heat type. In is not a pain killer. It is an irritant and cause localised nerve stimulation as well as capillary response, giving the effect of pain killing. A pain killer is something completely different - an analgesic (NSAIDS / Paracetamol / Morphine, etc).

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:44 AM
It is also on the forbidden list of the USEF! So the FEI is not being *too strict*.

The stuff is found in feed through supplements as well, Gold as Sun has paprika in it. Some folks feed just paprika but take the horses off of it 7-14 days prior to competition, because there is the chance they will test positive for capsaicin.

Yes, but damn near *everyone* uses Magic Cushion AT horse shows, so there is your conundrum.

MHM
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:47 AM
I'm sure there are grooms with the team horses around the clock so I'm not sure the sabotage theory would work,

I wouldn't necessarily think there would be somebody on duty 24 hours a day, although between grooms, braiders, massage people, and the like, it would be tough to plan on a window of opportunity. Certainly at any normal show, the grooms get to go back to the hotel at some point to sleep, however briefly.

I will say if anybody was caught doing that to somebody else's horse, I think they would get dragged out behind the barn and punished pretty thoroughly, long before the authorities got involved.

I would have to think sabotage is a less likely explanation than the traditional one.

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:48 AM
giving the effect of pain killing. A pain killer is something completely different - an analgesic (NSAIDS / Paracetamol / Morphine, etc).

Agreed, and anyone who has ever used the assortment of OTC topical arthritis meds on the shelf is up close and personal with the sensation. ;) However it is the last thing you would slap on your horses legs if for some reason you wanted to make his legs more sensitive, which is what people are arguing.

Have you ever seen anyone use Equi-Block or Magic Cushion with the intent to NOT block pain?

belambi
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:50 AM
Vet notes are worth ... what? Ask the Germans and their team vet about that 2004 team gold.


Errm?..german drug was NOT vet authorised according to the FEI?

from their enquirey..

''Beerbaum "could and should have sought authorization for the use of the substance," the federation said. "The sport overall must take precedence over the interests of any individual."''

belambi
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:52 AM
You're right - how foolish of me not to realize that despite rampant drug tests, it's most logical to assume that 4 high level riders would apply a topical antibiotic, knowing it would probably test & then crashed their horses into warm up fences.

And since it would have to be applied right before jumping in order to be effective, we had best assume that they were liberally slathering their horses legs with the nefarious ointment in front of the FEI stewards.

Your scenario is so much more likely ;)


Thanks. ;)

belambi
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:56 AM
these horses have NOT tested positive to a drug

they have tested positive to a banned substance. There is a huge difference.

belambi
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:00 AM
""Capsaicin is used in human medicine as a pain killer, but in horses is applied as a paste or lotion to the animals’ legs to make them hypersensitive as its immediate effect is to make the skin burn, Paul Farrington, associate member of the FEI’s veterinarian committee, told AFP.

Its use seems to be like a chemical form of rapping, an illegal activity in which horses’ forelegs are hit to bruise them, so they will avoid knocking the fences.

FEI’s secretary general Alexander McLin said the B tests for the positive horses would be completed in coming days, but not soon enough for any of the riders to compete in the final.

“The policy is that it is preferable to stop riders from competing rather than disqualifying them afterwards,” McLin said.

The stunning development casts yet another shadow over equestrian events generally as it follows a medal re-allocation in Athens, also for doping.

It also casts doubt on the future of equestrianism as part of the Olympics.

The doping scandal also puts show jumping under the microscope once more.

A doping scandal cost Germany the team jumping gold in Athens after the horse ridden by Ludger Beerbaum, who is a lynchpin of his country’s team here, was disqualified after testing positive for doping.

World number one, Meredith Michaels-Beerbaum, was left off the German team for Athens after her horse tested positive, though she was later cleared.

“This is certainly a serious blow to the sport and we are well aware of the possible implications for the sport and its position in the Olympics,” said Sven Holmberg, chairman of the FEI’s jumping committee.

“The four cases tested positive for the same substance. I don’t know if we can say it’s a trend but it contributes to the seriousness of the case.”

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:04 AM
fair enough belambi, although their vet did say he thought it was permitted and left wide open the inference he dispensed it, although he may not have directly said he did. Now maybe he fell on his sword for the team, but I suspect not.

Sorry, I'm just in the camp that this is part of the reason the zero tolerance rule needs to be revisited. No, I'm not talking about competing on bute and reserpine, but this has gone too far in the other direction. Trace levels of non-performance enhancing substances dos not a difference in medals make.

belambi
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:07 AM
for sure.

Would you count this present situation as performance enhancing?

PineTreeFarm
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:07 AM
Just an alternate theory.
In the past a variety of substances were used pretty much because there was no test or the test was not reliable.
Perhaps this is a substance that has been in use and is only recently able to be tested when applied to the skin
Isn't the Hong Kong lab one of the leading labs worldwide?

belambi
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:10 AM
Interesting no positive dressage horse tests..

ROFLMAO at the idea of Salinero needing to be 'a little more hypersensitive!'''

MHM
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:10 AM
I don't know how they can claim this would determine the future of equestrian sports in the Olympics. There have been plenty of other people eliminated from these games for testing positive in other sports.

Are all those other sports also in danger of getting dropped from the games? :rolleyes:

Seal Harbor
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:11 AM
Again - the USEF has a test for capsaicin. It is on the forbidden list for the USEF not just the FEI.

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:13 AM
well, no positive in dressage horses at this particular competition. They've had their moment in the sun.

Mozart
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:32 AM
Again - the USEF has a test for capsaicin. It is on the forbidden list for the USEF not just the FEI.

Exactly, so the vet saying he didn't know is pretty laughable. I cannot imagine that any team vet would not have been COMPLETELY familiar with all the banned substances. This is not new.

Mozart
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:39 AM
Also found in Rap Last, by the way.

I wonder how long it stays in the blood stream.

Ghazzu
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:48 AM
Sorry folks, but I find the idea that the riders/grooms/coaches/team vets might be unaware that either capscasin was prohibited or that products they were using contained it laughable.

omare
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:00 AM
I thought the point of an FEI controlled competion is that the stabling area is also supervised 24/7 making less likely sabatoge or it would have to be very well thought out/executed sabatage!

Coral
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:04 AM
I find it interesting that this substance is commonly found in peppers. I wonder what kind of concentration these tests can identify. It would be interesting to know if it is a trivial amount or something significant.

Using anything that contains this substance purposefully would seem to be quite idiotic wouldn't it? Especially with the large amount of testing that was going on at this Olympics that everyone could see. It just seems illogical that these people would be guilty to me, maybe I'm just giving people too much credit. The truth is we'll never know for sure, like always. They are really the only ones who know, and of course they will never admit it.

Kareen
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:07 AM
This is the most embarrassing news ever :( Capsaicin --- out of all substances to come up with the one that is the most suspicious of abusive use on a jumper's legs. Insufferable...
Is there a big hole somewhere I can burry my sorry deep-red German head in?

MHM
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:09 AM
I thought the point of an FEI controlled competion is that the stabling area is also supervised 24/7 making less likely sabatoge or it would have to be very well thought out/executed sabatage!

I've been in the FEI stabling in Florida and at the World Cup Finals. You have to show your pass to get inside, but they don't follow you around once you're in there.

It may be different at the Olympics.

Seal Harbor
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:11 AM
I find it interesting that this substance is commonly found in peppers. I wonder what kind of concentration these tests can identify. It would be interesting to know if it is a trivial amount or something significant.

Using anything that contains this substance purposefully would seem to be quite idiotic wouldn't it? Especially with the large amount of testing that was going on at this Olympics that everyone could see. It just seems illogical that these people would be guilty to me, maybe I'm just giving people too much credit. The truth is we'll never know for sure, like always. They are really the only ones who know, and of course they will never admit it.

It is what makes peppers hot. Capsaicin = peppers. Paprika is roasted, dried ground up peppers.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:13 AM
Trouble admitting you are wrong:lol::lol: Please explain to me what is wrong? Several lame dressage horses no dressage horses busted for dobing, showjumpers often busted for doping and many dressage horses could have used a little help since they were LAME...hmmm nope not wrong..

Your logic is just astonishing.

By the way, you might research drug violations that have occurred in international dressage, one in particular involving Rusty and Ulla Salzberger that was due to the use of a steroid cream on the horse's ... well, just google it.

jse
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:20 AM
Your logic is just astonishing.

By the way, you might research drug violations that have occurred in international dressage, one in particular involving Rusty and Ulla Salzberger that was due to the use of a steroid cream on the horse's ... well, just google it.

YankeeLawyer - Ridgeback is full of herself isn't she?
I didn't even go back and read her responses to what I wrote in the McLain thread yesterday cause it wasn't even worth it.

This is all so sad that these guys were eliminated....who knows what happend whether it was a mistake or not it's still unfortunate!
Such a crazy mistake to be had at such a high level, but it just goes to show nothing is perfect.

dags
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:23 AM
I really don't know what happened, apparently someone got tested and DQ'd . . . I was just kind of shocked to see an entire capsaicin thread on the Olympic board so I went clicky-clicky . . .


I don't know when USEF started testing for it but I used the Equi-Block stuff years ago, I think when it first came out, on a guy with crappy hocks. It made all the difference in the WORLD, combined with his normal adequan he was a completely different, and much happier horse. It was that obvious.

We slapped it in before each ride and massaged it in thoroughly, and from this experience I can't imagine the amounts you would have to apply to use it as a 'natural poling' technique. I would think the skin would blister, and thus it would be quite obvious, before any real 'sting' from a rail would make a lasting impression on a 1200 lb animal. My horse did not show skin sensitivity to it in the least.

I tend to agree with revisiting the no foreign substance rule. I have to believe those gymnasts, track stars, weight lifters, etc are downing bottles of aspirin and advil at these games- that's not illegal correct? Then why must our horses be denied these basic comforts at the highest level of competition in the world???

caffeinated
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:34 AM
I tend to agree with revisiting the no foreign substance rule. I have to believe those gymnasts, track stars, weight lifters, etc are downing bottles of aspirin and advil at these games- that's not illegal correct? Then why must our horses be denied these basic comforts at the highest level of competition in the world???

Out of curiousity I started looking around at the US Anti Doping Agency's reference section.

Capsaicin is allowed for track and field athletes, weightlifters, and gymnasts. (and for the human part of the equestrian team, apparently)

poltroon
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:48 AM
Capsaicin has to be permitted for humans because it's a significant part of half the world's cuisines - basically all food traditions not originating from the US or Europe contain capsaicin.

I personally think it is absurd to consider it a banned substance unless the horse shows signs of blistering or irritation. Is rubbing salsa on a horse performance enhancing?

It can have some beneficial effect for pain relief - just as ice can.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:55 AM
Just an FYI -- whichever vet said that capsaicin is never given orally, but only applied topically is WRONG. It is actually found in a number of feed supplements. For example, anything that contains paprika has capsaicin. That includes most coat enhancers (including Black as Knight -- which I am sure some posters here use) as well as straight paprika.

PineTreeFarm
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:58 AM
Again - the USEF has a test for capsaicin. It is on the forbidden list for the USEF not just the FEI.

Just because it's on the prohibited list doesn't mean that it can be detected in all manners of administration.

Here's an article that discusses testing for capsaicin.

http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08og/pr_doping.html

"The substance quickly vaporizes afterwards, which makes this doping very hard to detect.
However, the Hong Kong Jockey Club houses one of the best doping laboratories in the world, run by Dr. Terence Wan, and it is able to detect capsaicin easily and quickly. "

atr
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:08 PM
Whilst I would agree that this could be an "honest mistake," I've got to wonder about the fact that here am I, a lowly first level dressage rider in the back woods of the USA, knowing that it it is a banned substance, but apparently, those competing/grooming/team managing at the highest level letting it slip through the net.

As to whether it works as a soring product, I would guess it depends on the strength at which it is applied--Equiblock is probalby carefully formulated not to sting that much, lest innocent appliers get their heads kicked off and sue the manufacturer. Whereas a stronger solution could certainly sore--and it would depend on the horse too (speaking as someone who accidentally peeled her horse's back with diluted Bigeloil...)

poltroon
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:20 PM
What's interesting to me about paprika creating positive tests is that to my palate, paprika isn't even spicy. The coat products want paprika not for the capsaicin but for its deep pigments, so they would use the mildest paprikas (you can buy sharp, spicy paprikas, but most Americans are familiar with the mild edition) possible.

That suggests to me that they can detect less than salsa-level capsaicin.

Some numbers: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoville_scale )
pure capsaicin (definitely an irritant and inappropriate for use anywhere near horses): 16,000,000 Scoville Units
Habanero peppers: 100,000 - 350,000 Scoville Units - about the hottest humans would eat
Jalapeño peppers: ~ 4000 Scoville Units
Anaheim peppers: ~ 500-2500 Scoville Units
Paprika: ~ 150 Scoville Units
Bell Pepper: 0 Scoville Units


Now, that doesn't address how much was in these particular horses, but all of their legs were examined prior to competition, so we know there was no blistering or irritation.

Mozart
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:33 PM
Capsaicin has to be permitted for humans because it's a significant part of half the world's cuisines - basically all food traditions not originating from the US or Europe contain capsaicin.

I personally think it is absurd to consider it a banned substance unless the horse shows signs of blistering or irritation. Is rubbing salsa on a horse performance enhancing?

It can have some beneficial effect for pain relief - just as ice can.

It is if there are hot chili peppers in the recipe. The issue is the hypersensitization. Chemical rapping, if you will.

caffeinated
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:41 PM
It is if there are hot chili peppers in the recipe. The issue is the hypersensitization. Chemical rapping, if you will.

Which is pretty sucky, but is there any way at all to prove how or why it was used? How much of it needs to be in the horse for it to test, and is there a way to determine purpose by looking at how much is in the horse's system? Are they saying anything about how much was in these particular horses?

I don't necessarily think it was a mistake or innocent thing, but it's just such a common thing around barns I can see how it is possible (even in a strictly controlled setting).

I guess I'm just asking if there is any way to test/see the difference between someone who used it therapeutically as a liniment for sore muscles/joints vs. someone using it for "soring" type purposes. And all these horses wear boots, so if it was acting as an irritant couldn't that create some real ridability issues?

I'm a total naive bumpkin in the area of performance enhancement, so these are honest questions, not argumentative ones (in case anyone is reading in a tone that isn't intended)

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:42 PM
interesting stuff, poltroon. I too have my doubts about why you would try to get away with using capsaicin for making legs sensitive in competition where you know you will be tested. If they examine boots/legs before that means you have to apply it, let it sink in, wash it off enough so there is no visible trace and head to the schooling area. Then you have to hope it is still working in the irritant phase before you finish your schooling and rounds, because then it starts to go the opposite way for effect. Then you have to hope it doesn't test? And who knows how long it lasts on horses, but the hot burning effect doesn't last that long in humans, so it's hard to see how the timing works.

It's harder still to see a country like Germany taking so much as a chance considering they were favored for gold AND lost their lat one to what basically amounted as miscommunication with no intent to gain an advantage. Ditto for Ireland. Their last olympic visit was not pleasant either. If nothing else these are two countries who have a serious motivation to mind their Ps and Qs.

However I can see it being a useful tool to school a horse oh, say the last school BEFORE the competition starts, and believe that a topical cream put on a horse then thoroughly washed off would not test. I'm thinking the Americans who have a few more years' experience with the more sensitive test wouldn't be that foolish.

But all things considered, I find the idea that it was an unknown substance in a liniment (bigeloil) or in a hoof packing that went transdermal thanks to an abrasion on the coronet band (if you've ever used magic cushion it oozes) or even a deep cleft/thrush in the frog to be just as likely or even considerably more likely a culprit. There are too many "normal" daily applications of this substance, which *could* be addressed by permitted thresholds.

poltroon
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:44 PM
Until this thread, I didn't realize it was in bigeloil.

AdAblurr02
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:46 PM
Just an FYI -- whichever vet said that capsaicin is never given orally, but only applied topically is WRONG. It is actually found in a number of feed supplements. For example, anything that contains paprika has capsaicin. That includes most coat enhancers (including Black as Knight -- which I am sure some posters here use) as well as straight paprika.

So, as someone who is struggling to get their muttly dark bay yearling looking halfway show-shape - and putting a spoon of paprika in his nightly feed - how soon before show dates should I cease and desist with this unconscionable doping to avoid the dreaded drug-testing positive? I'd hate to lose a silly ribbon won in an in-hand DSHB class because my colt tested positive for PAPRIKA, fer cryin' out loud....

I mean, come on now.... this whole "doping" thing is way past common sense. I remember a case of a positive that was eventually traced to poppyseed muffins....... groom loved to have poppyseed muffins for breakfast, and always shared them with the horse. Horse tested positive for opiates.....

caffeinated
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:47 PM
Until this thread, I didn't realize it was in bigeloil.

on the label it is referred to as "Capsicum Tincture"

Mozart
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:54 PM
And in all the stuff you spray on bandages to keep a horse from chewing them.

From what I have read, it was found in the blood, not thermography (or whatever FEI uses to check for hypersensitization). What I don't know is how long traces would remain in the blood.

This is gonna be interesting, that's for sure, considering how many common stable products contain it and considering there are legitimate uses for this product.

vxf111
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:55 PM
I think, without knowing the concentration, it's really hard to assume the substance was used for soring/manual rapping. Even straight chili powder, applied to a bare leg wouldn't really string that much unless the horse had cuts on his legs. In which case-- alcohol or a number of other really basic substances would sting just as much and give you the same effect without the risk of testing. It just doesn't seem logical to me. If you wanted to do some chemical rapping, there are other ways to do it that would be easier/more discreet. I just can't see someone slathering and slathering their horse with Bigeoil for the stinging effect, someone would notice/report them.

Coreene
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:56 PM
Just an FYI -- whichever vet said that capsaicin is never given orally, but only applied topically is WRONG. It is actually found in a number of feed supplements. For example, anything that contains paprika has capsaicin. That includes most coat enhancers (including Black as Knight -- which I am sure some posters here use) as well as straight paprika.Absolutely. The people who do Reitsport have a color-enhancing one as well which also contains it.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:07 PM
So, as someone who is struggling to get their muttly dark bay yearling looking halfway show-shape - and putting a spoon of paprika in his nightly feed - how soon before show dates should I cease and desist with this unconscionable doping to avoid the dreaded drug-testing positive? I'd hate to lose a silly ribbon won in an in-hand DSHB class because my colt tested positive for PAPRIKA, fer cryin' out loud....

I have been told you have to stop at least 9 days before showing but DO consult with your vet as to that. I do not give anything containing paprika to my show horses because it is just not worth the risk to me. (In fact, the only reason I am so familiar with capsaicin is I do research the ingredients in all our supps and I *was* surprised to find out that several contained paprika, and that parika in turn contains capsaicin).

If it was in the horses' bloodstream, I will bet you that in at least some of the cases it was an ingredient in a supp or feed, and the riders/owners/grooms may very well not have known that. For one thing, not all supps have a comprehensive list of ingredients. And, while capsaicin is listed as a prohibited substance, things like paprika are not. So unless you are very familiar with all the possible things that capsaicin can turn up in, the ingredients lists may be fairly useless.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:09 PM
I remember a case of a positive that was eventually traced to poppyseed muffins....... groom loved to have poppyseed muffins for breakfast, and always shared them with the horse. Horse tested positive for opiates.....

Hey Ridgeback - -this must be a complete lie, as we know a groom would never do such a thing.

poltroon
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:09 PM
Until this thread, I didn't realize it was in bigeloil.

on the label it is referred to as "Capsicum Tincture"

I admit, I haven't read the label this decade.

Mozart
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:11 PM
See, this is why I NEVER feed goulash to any of my horses, ethnic pride notwithstanding.

And chicken paprikash?? Fuggedaboutit.

Edgar
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:25 PM
Horse Sport Ireland (HSI) was informed by the world equestrian
governing body the FEI, at 2.15pm Hong Kong time on Thursday,
that Irish Olympic rider Denis Lynch's horse 'Lantinus' had tested
positive for a banned substance and that as a result he would be
suspended from taking part in tonight's show jumping final.

Denis Lynch and HSI officials attended a preliminary hearing with the FEI a short time ago and were informed that the
substance found in the horse was called capsaicin.

At the tribunal the FEI indicated that this substance was an
ingredient in some products in regular use.

Subsequently it was identified by Denis Lynch as an ingredient in a product called 'Equi-block' used by him on his horse.

'Equi-block' is a product used in similar circumstances to 'Deep Heat' used on humans and Denis Lynch explained to the tribunal that he commonly applies 'Equi-block' to the horse's lower back prior to exercise.

Following this preliminary hearing today the FEI informed Denis Lynch that he remained suspended for tonight's competition.

The FEI have subsequently confirmed that three other riders due to jump in tonight's final at Hong Kong have also been suspended as a result of the same substance being found in their horses.

Horse Sport Ireland has confirmed that they submitted a urine sample from the horse to a voluntary screening testing process made available by the FEI on the horse's arrival in Hong Kong and the results of this test were negative.

The horse has also been tested on numerous occasions, including
following many of its recent victories, and has tested negative on all these occasions.

poltroon
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:25 PM
I mentioned positive tests for capsaicin to DH and he said:

"Peppers? In China?"

and I burst out laughing.

So keep those ponies away from the Szechwan food.

poltroon
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:27 PM
Seriously, I am very bummed for the Irish (as well the other countries). What a blow to have this happen two Olympics in a row.

And Norway, with their first medal in SJ? :(

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:33 PM
And if we take Denis at his word (and he is freely admitting he uses and has regularly used Equi Block), oops, not so much for the chemical rapping...

Hell, I use Sore No More on my horse's back all the time and you know what, it has arnica in it. Well, if you see me on the USEF Bad Boys & Girls list, you know why! ;)

nycjumper
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:37 PM
Now really DMK, didn't we learn pages ago that the most logical explanation was that those evil SJers were slapping on the liniment directly before going in to the ring even though they know about the tests b/c it *might* encourage their horses to pick up their legs?

I mean, posters stated with such CERTAINTY that it was done as an irritant. How can you dobut them?

Jeez, if only McLain had tested positive, think of the field day the posters could have had then?! ;)

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:43 PM
so true. I stand corrected. What WAS I thinking? Why would the fact it is a regularly used substance topically applied as a pain killer have any bearing on this issue?

nycjumper
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:46 PM
Yes, you know b/c why wouldn't someone use something that has doubtful effectiveness & would probably show up in tests?

Ignoring the fact that
a) many people use it as a painkiller
b) there are so many other legal ways to encourage a horse to pick up their legs like you know, putting them maybe slightly wrong at a fence when schooling right before riding just to remind them to sharpen up?

But obviously the logical explanation is that it was all shady showjumpers abusing their horses again.

M. O'Connor
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:46 PM
I wouldn't necessarily think there would be somebody on duty 24 hours a day, although between grooms, braiders, massage people, and the like, it would be tough to plan on a window of opportunity. Certainly at any normal show, the grooms get to go back to the hotel at some point to sleep, however briefly.

I will say if anybody was caught doing that to somebody else's horse, I think they would get dragged out behind the barn and punished pretty thoroughly, long before the authorities got involved.

I would have to think sabotage is a less likely explanation than the traditional one.

At least one of our team members does indeed have full time security in the barn aisle, 24/7.

vxf111
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:46 PM
Crap, is topical arnica really banned?

What linament CAN you use?! Just straight alcohol?!

Aurgh! I thought I had finally figure it out with Sore No More and found something the horses liked that was okay to use. Aurgh!!!

AdAblurr02
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:47 PM
Hey Ridgeback - -this must be a complete lie, as we know a groom would never do such a thing.


Yeah, but this case was a racetrack groom - and we all know they get away with LOTS more than FEI level BNT guys and competitors.............

is there a tongue in cheek smiley?

Words of Wisdom
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:47 PM
Equi-block is a commonly used for pain relief. I know far, far more people who use it for its pain-relieving properties than to make the horses sharp, although it does sting initially-- very similar to products like Deep Heat.
I can say, with a decent amount of certainty, that all of the riders in question have been using Equi-block for some time now, including at other horse shows, and have not had any problems with it testing positive before.

Coral
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:54 PM
Equi-block is a commonly used for pain relief. I know far, far more people who use it for its pain-relieving properties than to make the horses sharp, although it does sting initially-- very similar to products like Deep Heat.
I can say, with a decent amount of certainty, that all of the riders in question have been using Equi-block for some time now, including at other horse shows, and have not had any problems with it testing positive before.

I'm guessing (total speculation) that since they proclaim how it won't test it is probably a situation where when combined with something else that might contain trace amounts of capsaicin that maybe then you will have a problem with failing the testing. Since it seems to be a pretty common ingredient this seems likely. I think there needs to be further study on concentrations that would be needed to achieve this soring affect in order to determine anything conclusively.

Plumcreek
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:56 PM
" #40 Aug. 21, 2008, 07:47 AM
MHM
Grand Prix Join Date: Dec. 21, 2000
Location: NY
Posts: 4,081



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanM
I'm sure there are grooms with the team horses around the clock so I'm not sure the sabotage theory would work,
------------------
I wouldn't necessarily think there would be somebody on duty 24 hours a day, although between grooms, braiders, massage people, and the like, it would be tough to plan on a window of opportunity. Certainly at any normal show, the grooms get to go back to the hotel at some point to sleep, however briefly. "
---------------------------


At some major shows I have been to, and certainly less major than the Olympics, a person was hired to sit in a chair outside a big name horse's stall all night long - awake, one would hope.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:56 PM
At least one of our team members does indeed have full time security in the barn aisle, 24/7.

You can bet I absolutely would.

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 01:59 PM
Crap, is topical arnica really banned?

What linament CAN you use?! Just straight alcohol?!

Aurgh! I thought I had finally figure it out with Sore No More and found something the horses liked that was okay to use. Aurgh!!!

oops, sorry - my bad! It isn't on the USEF list (that is admittedly only a partial list) so its probably OK, but who the hell knows these days (I thought for sure I saw it on there). I admit to being totally paranoid about the process and I know I am not the only one. However camphor and hops ARE on the list, so there goes some liniments (Tuttles) and your horse's evening beer. ;D

Seal Harbor
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:00 PM
Just because it's on the prohibited list doesn't mean that it can be detected in all manners of administration.

Here's an article that discusses testing for capsaicin.

http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08og/pr_doping.html

"The substance quickly vaporizes afterwards, which makes this doping very hard to detect.
However, the Hong Kong Jockey Club houses one of the best doping laboratories in the world, run by Dr. Terence Wan, and it is able to detect capsaicin easily and quickly. "

Not if you are feeding it to them. Black As Knight and Gold as Sun both have capsaicin. There are people who feed plain old paprika for the same effect. They take them off of it 7 to 14 days before showing.

M. O'Connor
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:01 PM
I can't imagine the amounts you would have to apply to use it as a 'natural poling' technique.

Having cooked w/hot peppers, I can tell you from personal experience that it doesn't take much on one's fingers to create a burning sensation on sensitive skin (ie if you slice peppers and subsequently scratch your face/eye/wipe your hand across your lips).

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:01 PM
You can bet I absolutely would.

I admit, I was NOT surprised at all the 24/7 security cams I saw at WEF this year, and I know at least that one person has had security for a while. I totally doubt he is the only one, and I am sure ALL the top teams who have been around the block a few times have the cameras up at the very least.

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:05 PM
"The substance quickly vaporizes afterwards, which makes this doping very hard to detect.
However, the Hong Kong Jockey Club houses one of the best doping laboratories in the world, run by Dr. Terence Wan, and it is able to detect capsaicin easily and quickly. "

Interesting. Doesn't the B sample have to be tested at another lab? If so, what happens if only THIS lab can detect it? Houston, we have a problem.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:14 PM
Interesting. Doesn't the B sample have to be tested at another lab? If so, what happens if only THIS lab can detect it? Houston, we have a problem.

Capsaicin is not hard to test. I don't know where that info came from.

I think the bigger issue is that they did not permit the riders who were implicated to ride in the individual competition, yet they do not have the results of testing on the B samples. It is not unheard of for riders to be cleared after the B sample is tested, or for other reasons, but no one can give them back the opportunity to ride in the individual competition.

Glimmerglass
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:19 PM
Interesting. Doesn't the B sample have to be tested at another lab? If so, what happens if only THIS lab can detect it? Houston, we have a problem.

Of course you could just have the B-Sample shipped via DHL and stolen enroute (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/09/sports/othersports/09equestrian.html?pagewanted=print&position=). Then you have a 'luck of the Irish' problem :D

vxf111
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:22 PM
Having cooked w/hot peppers, I can tell you from personal experience that it doesn't take much on one's fingers to create a burning sensation on sensitive skin (ie if you slice peppers and subsequently scratch your face/eye/wipe your hand across your lips).

Totally agree, and have you ever gotten some in your eye? Oh my GOD!

But we're not talking bare sensitive skin of your hand from slicing hot peppers (it's the seeds with the kick in them)-- we're talking applying some sort of paste to a horse's legs. There's way less sensitivity and more of a fur barrier in place there. Not to mention you'd really have to be slathering it on-- I bet when you were cutting peppers it took a while before you actually felt anything-- and even then it was somewhat of a mild sting. To chemically rap a horse, you'd want something that really stung.

I am not doubting pepper COULD could be used to do that, but it'd be a pretty unwieldy/obvious way to do it-- and I tend to think people who want to cheat are looking for the quick/subtle way to do it.

hsheffield
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:26 PM
to whomever said perhaps someone besides the horse's competitor could have sabotaged the horse:

I think that's very unlikely. usually at big international competitions there is ALWAYS someone from the rider's team with the horse. grooms even sleep in the barn with them. would be pretty hard (though I guess not impossible...) to get to the horses and dose them with something.

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:26 PM
*snork* Glimmer, don't think that option didn't cross my mind!

YL - I did wonder about that, but I assumed (dangerous of me, I know) that olympic rules were somewhat settled as it relates to testing positive in a qualifying round (which is what the team finals were for the ind finals) and then continuing on to a subsequent round. However I freely admit that just because that should NOT be a new scenario in the Olympic venue, it doesn't mean there are actually rules in place and that they have withstood litigation!

caffeinated
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:30 PM
to whomever said perhaps someone besides the horse's competitor could have sabotaged the horse:

I think that's very unlikely. usually at big international competitions there is ALWAYS someone from the rider's team with the horse. grooms even sleep in the barn with them. would be pretty hard (though I guess not impossible...) to get to the horses and dose them with something.


I just got the worst mental visual of someone running by a horse in the warmup ring, dumping a bucket of bigeloil on it, then running away cackling madly.

I need more sleep.

Equilibrium
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:37 PM
Don't know if this has been posted but on the Irish news tonight it stated Lantinus gets Equi Block on his back to help loosen him up. He has done for a while or so stated. They didn't know they were doing anything wrong. That's always the same story though. I use to use Equiblock on my neck when I was galloping. It will light you up that's for sure!

Terri

poltroon
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:53 PM
Having cooked w/hot peppers, I can tell you from personal experience that it doesn't take much on one's fingers to create a burning sensation on sensitive skin (ie if you slice peppers and subsequently scratch your face/eye/wipe your hand across your lips).

The classic way for males to discover the effects of capsaicin is to cut up hot peppers, get it all over your hands (where you feel nothing) and then, go to the bathroom. :D

Women tend to touch their eyes first.

I wear rubber gloves when I handle them. Too easy to get under your fingernails.

But on normal, unbroken skin, as you'd have on jumper legs, it does not have that effect.

It sounds to me like perhaps the Hong Kong lab is more sensitive than the european labs. And I wonder how time-sensitive it is, since the horse was tested by the Hong Kong lab upon arrival.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:54 PM
If it is something always used, you would think a positive test would have happened before now.

I am not sure why competitors at the top continue to use products without KNOWING that they have something questionable in it. I know when I was competing at the low levels, I was SO careful about any substance. We used EPF-5 as a brace, but NEVER for weeks before a show.

Are they just so casual about competing that they don't read new rules, to know about substances, equipment, etc?

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:55 PM
The classic way for males to discover the effects of capsaicin is to cut up hot peppers, get it all over your hands (where you feel nothing) and then, go to the bathroom. :D

Women tend to touch their eyes first.

Yup! I found out about Wrap Last that way. :eek: :lol:

Mardi
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:58 PM
Of course you could just have the B-Sample shipped via DHL and stolen enroute (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/09/sports/othersports/09equestrian.html?pagewanted=print&position=). Then you have a 'luck of the Irish' problem :D

Sadly DHL isn't known for it's reliability...no matter what they're shipping. :(

Bogey2
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:02 PM
Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I would suspect that it was not being used as a pain reliever. Having used some pain relievers myself (when not competing) with capsaicin in them I can tell you that the first few times you use it it BURNS!!!! I learnt that lesson the hard way and always check to see if it is a content as I will never use it again because of that fact. I would suspect that it was being used to produce a similar result as plastic chips in boots etc...


you are right...it especially burns when you get heated up. I use it on my back now and again and if I work up a sweat I feel like I am on fire.:eek:

sake
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:08 PM
This stuff makes me sick. There is no way that they used it as a painkiller. We all know what kind of abuses go on with showjumpres. I mean look at all those horsess they used to kill. The only reason they did it was to hurt them. It's as bad as what they do to gaited horses

Was Maclean Ward tested? [edit]

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:09 PM
bogey, keep reading - notwithstanding that effect, it IS used as a topical pain killer... Uh, they even have commercials for a topical arthritis cream for humans on all the time. I know, they are painful to tivo through. So painful I almost need a topical pain killer. Oh wait...

poltroon
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:15 PM
Quote:
Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I would suspect that it was not being used as a pain reliever. Having used some pain relievers myself (when not competing) with capsaicin in them I can tell you that the first few times you use it it BURNS!!!! I learnt that lesson the hard way and always check to see if it is a content as I will never use it again because of that fact. I would suspect that it was being used to produce a similar result as plastic chips in boots etc...

you are right...it especially burns when you get heated up. I use it on my back now and again and if I work up a sweat I feel like I am on fire._______

Capsaicin can confusingly have both properties. It burns to a certain point, and then the nerves are overwhelmed and stop sending pain signals (all the neurotransmitter Substance P is depleted). It is also a substance you "get used to" which is why some people can cheerfully munch on a habanero pepper and others would be in intense pain.

The effects are temporary and reverse completely at normal levels.

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/phytochemicals/pages/capsaicin.html

Capsaicin has been found to possess several beneficial health qualities. It has antibacterial properties, which may help people with conditions such as stomach ulcers, rather than injuring them further as doctors have traditionally thought. It's also a general digestive aid, increasing secretions of saliva and gastric juices, and promoting intestinal activity. In studies with animals, cancer researchers have found that capsaicin keeps certain carcinogens from binding to DNA, giving it merit as a potential anti-cancer drug.

Currently, the best-known medical use for capsaicin is as a topical painkiller, fighting fire with fire as it were. The very quality that causes the burning sensation also causes nerve endings to release mediators, chemical substances that inform the brain about pain or inflammation. When applied directly to an area that is causing pain, capsaicin empties the stores of inflammatory mediators from the nerve endings, so they can no longer transmit pain signals to the brain. Pepper creams with capsaicin have been developed and are being used as painkillers for conditions such as herpes (shingles), arthritis, and neuralgia.

sake
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:18 PM
I asked this but nobody answers. Did they drugtest Macleen's horse? [edit]I heard from a friend at a horseshow that there are ltos of bad things that happen when people aren't looking and everybody drugs their horses.

Is this stuff like what they use on the Tenesee horses? I bet it hurts them so much. I am very sad to be an AMerican today.

SGray
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:22 PM
my small level of experience

back when I had disc problems I used it (equi-block or similar product - it's been a while) on my back (it felt soothing almost immediately) and it really helped with both pain and stiffness (always wondered how a topical could help with a problem of the spinal discs)

one day I applied it when I was not hurting and man did that smart

poltroon
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:26 PM
With some searching a la Google, I found some research that suggests that capsaicin cream applied to arthritic joints might not only be producing pain relief (because it binds/depletes Substance P, which transmits pain to the brain) but also may actually reduce damage to the joint, because Substance P in synovial fluid is implicated in itself creating more cartilage damage. I could not definitively verify that anyone has studied the question of whether a topical cream depletes the Substance P that is actually inside the joint fluid.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/500859
http://www.jbjs.org.uk/cgi/reprint/79-B/1/114.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18622837

dogchushu
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:30 PM
I wish they would release the concentrations of banned substances showing up in tests. It would stop a lot of speculation.

As to whether it was a genuine innocent mistake (e.g. hoof packing getting into broken skin) or something more sinister, I lean towards the former. There are so many easy ways it could happen. And the latter involves some pretty convoluted process that wouldn't seem to give much benefit in exchange for the risk.

Until now, I didn't know it was in bigleoil either. Not sure how I'm supposed to know "Capsicum Tincture" is!

dags
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:32 PM
I asked this but nobody answers. Did they drugtest Macleen's horse? [edit] I heard from a friend at a horseshow that there are ltos of bad things that happen when people aren't looking and everybody drugs their horses.

Is this stuff like what they use on the Tenesee horses? I bet it hurts them so much. I am very sad to be an AMerican today.


TROLL.

Read for comprehension, many instances have been cited here of the benefits of capsacain to MAKE A HORSE COMFORTABLE. Oh, oh, oh us evil showjumpers . . .

The rest of your drivel is just, well, almost humorous after all the stuff that has gone on on this board this week.

poltroon
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:32 PM
I asked this but nobody answers. [edit] I heard from a friend at a horseshow that there are ltos of bad things that happen when people aren't looking and everybody drugs their horses.

Is this stuff like what they use on the Tenesee horses? I bet it hurts them so much. I am very sad to be an AMerican today.

Dude!

If you're going to be sad about the "horse abusers" (and did you know your grandma probably uses the stuff on her sore joints?), at least be embarrassed that you're Irish, German, Norwegian or Brazilian. No Americans have been implicated.

NeddyDevine
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:39 PM
Dude!

If you're going to be sad about the "horse abusers" (and did you know your grandma probably uses the stuff on her sore joints?), at least be embarrassed that you're Irish, German, Norwegian or Brazilian. No Americans have been implicated.

YET

jse
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:45 PM
This stuff makes me sick. There is no way that they used it as a painkiller. We all know what kind of abuses go on with showjumpres. I mean look at all those horsess they used to kill. The only reason they did it was to hurt them. It's as bad as what they do to gaited horses

Was Maclean Ward tested? [edit].

Yeah I'm gonna say you're a troll.

However, read this:
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.support.arthritis/2007-10/msg00714.html

This substance is merely a pain reliever...banned by the FEI, yes. Agreed, no. Can ya do anything about it? No. Rules are rules. Heck with back pain I have right now, I'd probably not hesitate to try it out to see if it relieves my aches and pains.
And don't make assumptions based on the fact that one bad horseman leads to the next cause it's not true.
I know show jumpers who are taken care of to the highest extremes and they live wonderful lives and are super happy.
And once again I read "people at horse shows told me this and that...." That is all gossip...and what good is gossip? About as good as a tack in your a&%.

CoolMeadows
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:49 PM
Trollfest '08 :rolleyes:

As closely monitored as barns and schooling rings are, I *really* doubt riders were out there smearing capsaicin paste all over legs in hopes of making the horses snappy. Since it's in Bigeloil and countless other liniments, it was (stupidly) overlooked as it hasn't been detected when used topically before. Riders probably assumed (stupidly) that it didn't enter the bloodstream unless taken orally. Those evil unpatriotic terrorist jumpers, rubbing their horses down. :mad:

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:49 PM
In general, a pain reliever that works by using an irritant is not a pain reducer that works directly. It works by increasing circulation to the injured part, and the increased circulation heals the injury quicker. That is why you heat up an older injury, but cool a fresh one. Irritants cause a little bit of a fresh local injury to tell the body where to rush the "healing blood" to.

huntrpaint
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:52 PM
Ok so I get what it is...but what effect are people trying to acheive using this?
It's one of the few topical pain relievers that actually work. That and surpass (voltaren).
Capsasician can be found in zostrix cream and in Equiblock.

jse
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:55 PM
In general, a pain reliever that works by using an irritant is not a pain reducer that works directly. It works by increasing circulation to the injured part, and the increased circulation heals the injury quicker. That is why you heat up an older injury, but cool a fresh one. Irritants cause a little bit of a fresh local injury to tell the body where to rush the "healing blood" to.

I think MY biggest question is:
So what is everyone supposed to use in a liniment while competing at these levels? A lot of equine products contain this substance so what else could you use to relieve your horse of it's aches and pains after some serious competition?

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:57 PM
I think MY biggest question is:
So what is everyone supposed to use in a liniment while competing at these levels? A lot of equine products contain this substance so what else could you use to relieve your horse of it's aches and pains after some serious competition?

Personally, I would use massage. That will work better than any liniment, and is 100% safe.

huntrpaint
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:59 PM
It's a pain killer.

When the OTC product Equi-Block came out, it originally contained shedloads of capsaicin. Once the federations started testing for it they made another version & now there are two versions of that product... one for horses who are not subject to drug testing and another for those who are!
I can say from using Equi-block original on myself (and surpass too) that they both work very well. Shame they can't use something so benign for the Olympics.

2DogsFarm
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:13 PM
Trollfest '08 :rolleyes:
Those evil unpatriotic terrorist jumpers, rubbing their horses down. :mad:

:lol:
I'm with you CoolMeadows - that's what first came to my mind
Liniment = WMD?

jse
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:16 PM
Personally, I would use massage. That will work better than any liniment, and is 100% safe.

I was thinking that too....heck....I think massage cures most anything in both humans AND animals. It's so good for you!

DMK
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:22 PM
*snork* so you don't think all those top level show jumpers living and dying under the FEI rules ever heard of massage? Or acupuncture? Chiropractic? Or all the various sports medicine gadgets out there like the electromagnetic and hydrotherapy machines? I think it's a pretty safe bet they already have those bases covered.

Given that a chiro/vet friend that went to Sydney back in 2000 was showing me how to do deep tissue fascia massage on my horse way back in the late 90's, I think we can bet they are already safely on top of it. :lol:

Ghazzu
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:23 PM
I asked this but nobody answers. Did they drugtest Macleen's horse? [edit]I heard from a friend at a horseshow that there are ltos of bad things that happen when people aren't looking and everybody drugs their horses.

Is this stuff like what they use on the Tenesee horses? I bet it hurts them so much. I am very sad to be an AMerican today.


Why? It was horse from other countries who tested positive.

BLBGP
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:40 PM
Who's Macleen? I keep picturing Mr. Clean on a horse. Or maybe his Ma. Ma Cleen. ;)

Sigh.....I thought kids were back in school already. Guess not.

huntrpaint
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:49 PM
I think MY biggest question is:
So what is everyone supposed to use in a liniment while competing at these levels? A lot of equine products contain this substance so what else could you use to relieve your horse of it's aches and pains after some serious competition?
I've made liniment out of alcohol and listerine but don't know if the "herbs"listed in listerine are legal or not.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 21, 2008, 05:56 PM
I've made liniment out of alcohol and listerine but don't know if the "herbs"listed in listerine are legal or not.

I believe that Listerine contains Eucalyptus. Listerine can blister, also, so be careful with that. It has a lot of good uses for horses, though, and can help clear up all kinds of skin issues and is pretty decent when used to make homemade flyspray, which we use on my farm. I would like to know also if any of its ingredients are banned.

Fairview - re riders claiming ignorance about ingredients in the products they use ... I am sure some need to be more vigilant, period, about knowing the applicable rules and ensuring they are in compliance (e.g., the weight limit on boots for eventing). But, a lot of horse products have absolutely pathetic labeling, and do not contain a complete list of ingredients. And even when they do, a listed ingredient may in fact contain a banned substance, but the ingredient itself is not on any prohibited substance list (e.g., paprika / capsaican). Plus, think about how many things are used on a horse to prep it for a show -- shampoos, liniments, supplements -- not to mention whatever its fed. And all that is complicated by the fact that it is unlikely that the horse is under the sole care of any one person for all of its needs. As I have said elsewhere, being the control nut that I am, I do all feed and meds at shows because I just don't want these issues. And if I have a rules question, I need only ask Janet, our COTH expert on rules : ).

1derful
Aug. 21, 2008, 06:04 PM
I can say from using Equi-block original on myself (and surpass too) that they both work very well. Shame they can't use something so benign for the Olympics.

Before I go to bed, I use Grand Flex roll on on my feet and hips that can be stiff and a bit painful when I get up the next morning, and it works really well. It has the same hot pepper derived substance. I actually don't feel any burn, but I guess I have tough skin. Haha. Never thought it would be illegal for horse competition.

I tried a Chinese liniment on one of my horses once. I don't know if it was the herbal smell or the tingling sensation, he was so mad that he threw himself on the stall floor repeatedly and rolled like crazy. I don't think I'll experiment anything I use on him again.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 21, 2008, 07:01 PM
*snork* so you don't think all those top level show jumpers living and dying under the FEI rules ever heard of massage?

Haha. The point was that I would depend on massage, as it works better than anything else, and I would NOT use anything that I was not 100% sure of. It IS the Olympics. Not something I would mess around with unknown chemicals for - even to the point of washing my horse with water period.

Equibrit
Aug. 21, 2008, 07:18 PM
Irish rider Denis Lynch blames 'Equiblock' for positive doping test

Charlotte White, H&H deputy news editor

21 August, 2008


One of the four show jumpers suspended from the Olympic competition in Hong Kong has blamed his horse's positive test for a banned substance on a Deep Heat-like ointment used on the horse.

At the tribunal yesterday in Hong Kong the International Equestrian Federation indicated that the banned substance, capsaicin, was an ingredient in some equestrian products in regular use.


Horse Sport Ireland (HSI) has confirmed that it was identified by their rider Denis Lynch as an ingredient in a product called Equiblock used by him on his horse.


An HSI spokesman said : "Equi-block is a product used in similar circumstances to 'Deep Heat' used on humans and Denis Lynch explained to the tribunal that he commonly applies Equiblock to the horse's lower back prior to exercise."

dogchushu
Aug. 21, 2008, 07:42 PM
Can capsaicin transfer through the skin? I know it can through mucus membranes.

Even if it can't, I can see how it could get into a horse's system. You rub a horse down, he bites at a fly or scratches his nose on his leg, etc. Sure, it's a tiny amount. But the test detect such minute amounts these days.

It's a shame. I hate seeing medals redistributed after the event is over. I understand cheating is cheating and I hate it. I'm not saying it should be overlooked. However, as a spectator, I like seeing the results determined right there, on the field of play and seeing the winners on the podium, not announced several days later.

petitefilly
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:14 PM
Capsaicin has to be permitted for humans because it's a significant part of half the world's cuisines - basically all food traditions not originating from the US or Europe contain capsaicin.

I personally think it is absurd to consider it a banned substance unless the horse shows signs of blistering or irritation. Is rubbing salsa on a horse performance enhancing?

It can have some beneficial effect for pain relief - just as ice can.

I was wondering that myself. Were the horses being rubbed down, and put up in standing wraps with the stuff to give them extra comfort? Or, were they being painted right before jumping to dull the leg? It might burn initially, but it is a pain killer by design.

Capsaicin comes in many strengths too. Light is in the OTC medications for leg rubs, and heavy duty can be in arthritis strength products.

My only questions are WHY were they using it, and why is it banned? Sorry, not up on the regulations on controlled substances during the events. :( Very sad for the sport though, it makes you wonder what people will do to win.

willowoodstables
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:31 PM
My only questions are WHY were they using it, and why is it banned? Sorry, not up on the regulations on controlled substances during the events. :( Very sad for the sport though, it makes you wonder what people will do to win.


Actually I think it is considered a foreign substance?? I know, maybe someone had buffalo wings and then pet the horsies (not being a smart butt, but really I can't beleive someone would get caught for doping..I know wishful thinking)

MHM
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:32 PM
Here's an annoying thing.

The NY Times has the story about the 4 suspended riders on the front page of their website.

When the US won team gold on Monday, there was not one word about it.

Peggy
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:33 PM
My understanding is that the lab used for this Olympics is able to detect capsaicin in lower concentrations than was previously possible. Thus it's possible that the topical preparations and MagicCushion were used during previous competitions, but not detected by a lab that can't measure the lower concentrations.

Ruby G. Weber
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:38 PM
There are hundreds of "banned substances."

No matter how good, fast, sensitive a testing lab is it cannot possibly test for every banned substance in every sample in a relatively short time as has been done in Hong Kong.

That means to me they were looking for this particular substance.

A sample can be "negative" for acepromazine, even if the horse was given a cc five minutes before the sample was drawn, if that sample was not tested for ace.

And yes DMK the whole hoopla after Athens, rider reps on the FEI drug committee, moving away from zero tolerance, allowable trace levels, etc. Yes, zero tolerance is unrealistic and the sooner the FEI comes to that realization, the better for the horse and ,oh yes, the sport.

coriander
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:40 PM
The Capsaicin Conspiracy - buckets of Bigeloil dumped down legs in the dark. :lol::lol:

grayarabpony
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:43 PM
Here's an annoying thing.

The NY Times has the story about the 4 suspended riders on the front page of their website.

When the US won team gold on Monday, there was not one word about it.

:no:

BLBGP
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:51 PM
http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=1212907081280700&ShowArticle_ID=1282108080439110

canyonoak
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:09 PM
To test a horse AT the event, declare it negative--and then test it again and find it positive...seems ridiculous to me when the horse was using the Equi-Block at the time of BOTH tests. Especially when the entire point of the pre-test is to INFORM the PR (person Responsible) that the horse has a problem or not.

As Lynch points out--he has been using Equi-Block in his saddle area for over a year, being tested at event after event--as the horse has a solid competition record and enough wins to require fairly continuous testing.

What a farce!

Guess once again the FEI and WADA forgot that some people really can be innocent.

Well, that's another career WADA has managed to sabotage-=-this time with the help of the FEI.

bluemoonfarms
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.ph...82108080439110
"He commonly applies a topical substance called Equi-block to his horse's back to loosen the muscles before working, he said. The label on the bottle he produced read, "Contains capsaicin—will not test." "

Will not test. I think that says it all. There is no way that every substance used or ingested by an Olympian horse is not fully scrutinized by the vet. Shame on them for trying to stretch the rules.

I have contacted the USEF in the past to find out if certain supplements were legal to use. They were very helpful. When my horse showed in FEI Classes I even went as far as to by organic carrots for her. I was afraid of any chemicals that could have been sprayed on or used on them as they were growing.

It is another dark cloud on another Olympics. How sad.

M. O'Connor
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:43 PM
There's a big difference between the phrase: "Will not test," and "Does not contain any forbidden substance."

Carol Ames
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:47 PM
similar to cayenne pepper, , it increases blood flow,ie., circulation to the area to which it is applied to It is used as a topical arthritis ointment in humans, and horses; it creates a burning sensation, do not get it near your eyes!:no:, or, on sensitive areas:cry:; similar to putting gasoline on horses legs, in (the "old days" :mad:) it makes horses super careful to NOT touch a pole:o

Carol Ames
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:49 PM
similar to cayenne pepper, , it increases blood flow,ie., circulation to the area to which it is applied it is used as a topical arthritis ointment in humans, and horses; it creates a burning sensation, do not get it near your yes:cry:!, or, on sensitive:eek: areas; similar to putting gasoline on horses legs, in (the "old days" ) it makes horses super careful to NOT touch a pole

Gry2Yng
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:49 PM
Yes, but damn near *everyone* uses Magic Cushion AT horse shows, so there is your conundrum.

damn near everyone uses liniment too, but it is a forbidden substance according to the FEI. When you ride at that level you learn how to play in the sandbox for the most part, but sometimes you get caught out. Liniment has alcohol. Alcohol is forbidden, but it would take buckets of it to be absorbed by the skin and show up in a test. That doesn't mean it isn't forbidden, you just take your chances.

The FEI's party line is "hay, water and oats" - everything else is "banned".

The Federation has a telephone number you can call and you can read them the list of ingredients on ANY product and they will tell you if it will be flagged in an FEI drug test.

They are really helpful. Before any FEI event, all the riders I know go through their grooming kits looking for things that can be a problem and then they sit on the phone with the USEF Drugs and Meds people and discuss any new products they have added to the kit since the last FEI event.

Have no idea whether the purpose behind the use of capsaicin was for a competitive advantage or not, but these competitors, the coaches and the chefs know how to play the game as far as what they are using on their horses. They don't take the label on the bottle at face value.

capsaicin is not hay water or oats, doesn't matter if it is used every day by everyone in a hoof packing. Can't be used at an FEI event. Period. If you think you will be using it in such small amounts that it won't test, that is a risk you take. The FEI is quite clear.

It is also true that different labs will detect substances at different levels. I have called the Federation in the past and once they told me that all samples pulled in Canada are tested in a lab in the US. Sensitivities in Europe are totally different and horses have to be managed for it. Again, Chef and Coaches know all about this. So no surprise that they might catch something different in Hong Kong or that they might be looking for something in particular at this event (funny how they found a lot of it) whereas they weren't looking for it at other events.

Carol Ames
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:57 PM
t's a shame. I hate seeing medals redistributed after the event is over. I understand cheating is cheating and I hate it. I'm not saying it should be overlooked. However, as a spectator, I like seeing the results determined right there, on the field of play and seeing the winners on the podium, not announced several days later. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3463362)

GreekDressageQueen
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:58 PM
Once upon a time, I competed in international FEI events and my horses were subjected to drug testing all the time. Our team and our team vet never allowed us to use anything but ice, wraps, pillows (or gamgee), and clay-based poultice. If our horses were sore, we used massage, magnets, cold hosing, and piping hot towels infused with peppermint. Sometimes, we even used steam to help clear airways and bring moisture back to the GI tract during the hot summers. This was only 15 years ago and we were jumpers. There is really no excuse not to be able to follow the "no tolerance" policy. It required many more hours of TLC for each horse and sometimes our horses would still be sore and not compete as well but that's the risk you take. At least we never failed a drug test. The failed drug tests, the "alleged" doping, the weighted boots, all of these things are just ridiculous. :no:

MHM
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:58 PM
I'm still amazed at the notion that not every horse at the Olympics gets drug tested. That just boggles my mind.

Doesn't every race horse that gets a piece of a $2000 claiming race in the United States get drug tested?

You would think they would test every horse there. Don't they test every human athlete??

bluemoonfarms
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:01 PM
Manufacturer's Product Information:


"Equi-Block™
EquiFlite Technologies Inc
Description:
Racehorse Strength topical pain reliever with Capsaicin. Will not test positive.

Indications:
For the temporary care of rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, neuralgias, simple backache, strains and sprains of ligaments and tendons, curb and splints in horses.

Ingredients:
Active Ingredient: Capsaicin (0.025%)
Other Ingredients: Deionized Water, Chamomile Extract, Carbomer 940, Polysorbate 20, Triethanolamine, Propyl Gallate, Methylparaben, Imidazolidinyl Urea, Propylparaben, Fragrance.
This product contains natural products and is subject to color change over time.

Directions:
The key to using Racehorse Strength Equi-Block successfully is that it must be applied to the exact area of lameness. Apply just enough to cover affected area and apply evenly. Apply to both sides of a joint where applicable (i.e., if applying to a hock rub in front, sides and back of hock). This gives maximum results. Apply to affected area not more than 3-4 times daily, for up to 7 days. Wash hands after applying.

Warnings:
For external use only. Avoid contact with eyes and mucous membranes. If Equi-Block gets in eyes, flush thoroughly with water. Do not apply to broken or irritated skin. Do not bandage. Do not apply to unaffected areas. Discontinue use if excessive irritation occurs. Do not use other than directed. If condition worsens, discontinue use and consult a veterinarian. Keep this and all drugs out of the reach of children. For animal use only.

Storage:
Store in original container at controlled room temperature 15-30°C (59-86°F).

Disclaimer: Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of the information published. However, it remains the responsibility of the readers to familiarize themselves with the product information contained on the product label or package insert."


So in the first line under description it states that it contains capsaicin and that it will not test positive. Why would they say it will not test positive for a LEGAL substance?

And this from tackoutlet.com

"Equi Block #924

Click to Enlarge

This scientifically advanced topical pain reliever combines the unique pain killing properties of capsaicin (an extract that penetrates the skin) with the soothing, anti-inflammatory qualities of Levonemol. Tremendous success decreasing pain in soft tissue injuries and joints in the equine athlete. Will not test positive, blister or scurf. Works immediately on aplication. Apply 1/2 to 1 oz. to the desired area. Rub in until thoroughly absorbed. 8 oz. "


Again "will not test positive" and this is an advertisement for Equi-Block.

Another from kyhorse.com

"Equi-Block is a topical pain reliever for the temporary relief of minor aches and pains associated with arthritis, tendonitis, strains, sprains and simple backache in horses. Scientifically formulated for racehorses. Contains capsaicin, will not test positive. 8 ounces."


Once again will not test positive?

GreekDressageQueen
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:02 PM
I heard Phelps volunteered to be drug tested every 4 hours because he knew some people thought he was taking something to enhance his performance. I think it really raised his credibility and respect within the sporting community.

GreekDressageQueen
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:04 PM
Seems to me that either the products will not test positive under some US standard and not FEI or the product's packaging is misleading.

Carol Ames
Aug. 21, 2008, 11:04 PM
i find hard :winkgrin::winkgrin:to believe:mad: that someone did not look further look into its' use
heads will:eek: roll!
Will not test. I think that says it all. There is no way that every substance used or ingested by an Olympian horse is not fully scrutinized by the vet. Shame on them for trying to stretch the rules.

silver2
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:17 AM
similar to cayenne pepper, , it increases blood flow,ie., circulation to the area to which it is applied to It is used as a topical arthritis ointment in humans, and horses; it creates a burning sensation, do not get it near your eyes!, or, on sensitive areas; similar to putting gasoline on horses legs, in (the "old days" ) it makes horses super careful to NOT touch a pole
Sorry but it's not the same at all. Equi Block does not equal gasoline in any way shape or form.

I've used the stuff quite a bit and it doesn't cause sensitivty: it does the opposite. Even if it stings a bit when you put it on, that lasts 5-10 minutes max. Not even long enough to warm up. After that you'd have a horse with warm, fuzzy feeling legs which would not be too helpful as you started your course.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.ph...82108080439110
"He commonly applies a topical substance called Equi-block to his horse's back to loosen the muscles before working, he said. The label on the bottle he produced read, "Contains capsaicin—will not test." "

Will not test. I think that says it all. There is no way that every substance used or ingested by an Olympian horse is not fully scrutinized by the vet. Shame on them for trying to stretch the rules.

I have contacted the USEF in the past to find out if certain supplements were legal to use. They were very helpful. When my horse showed in FEI Classes I even went as far as to by organic carrots for her. I was afraid of any chemicals that could have been sprayed on or used on them as they were growing.

It is another dark cloud on another Olympics. How sad.


BlueMoon, honestly, I can see how a lot of people would think that capsaican is only problematic if administered orally (which is why I was really irritated when that one FEI vet said it is NEVER given orally; that is wrong). Thus, a topical lotion that happens to contain capsaican, if it did not pass to the bloodstream, arguably is not performance enhancing and would "not test." Frankly, as I am familiar with the oral forms of capsaican, I thought the ban was directed at those. But I also would have asked about it before using it as a cream, as I am aware that for example steroid creams can cause a positive result. I could also see how someone might interpret does "not test" as "not prohibited," though as a lawyer obviously I do not equate the two. (Regardless, I do think that company has some answering to do about its representations, and I would highly suggest that the riders/owners involved get copies of anything evidencing that representation, before the company changes its website).

Regarding the rules, I realize that this substance *is* banned, so there is not much one can say about it. But, I do question the purpose of these rules. I would think they are intended to protect the welfare of the horse, as well as prevent anyone from having an unfair (read: artificially enhanced) advantage over one's competitors. But honestly, I think the zero tolerance approach in some ways is far less humane to the horses than allowing some of these to be used in therapeutic doses, for example like some athletes might use advil or Bengay post-workout. I don't mean that things should be used that can mask lameness, for example, but simply that there should be some allowance for certain non-performance-enhancing substances to be used on a horse that otherwise would be deemed fit to show.

I am sure many would be horrified to hear that years ago trainers routinely gave banamine to horses that were on stressful show schedules (doing so was legal at the time). It was not done to impact soundness, but rather to help prevent colic, and I am sure it also helped some of the older made horses feel better as well.

Jane
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:30 AM
Seems to me that either the products will not test positive under some US standard and not FEI or the product's packaging is misleading.


http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12550&nID=43&src=RA

"Although capsaicin "has always been considered illegal ... the laboratories have only recently found ways to discover it," Farrington said. "The specific test was introduced two years ago. This is the first time it has been discovered in sport horses. Previously, only one case in racing has been known.""

Equi-Block is going to have to spend some money in reprinting/packaging their labels. That said, I have never taken manufacture guarantees as the gospel, especially something as vague as "will not test".

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:30 AM
To test a horse AT the event, declare it negative--and then test it again and find it positive...seems ridiculous to me when the horse was using the Equi-Block at the time of BOTH tests. Especially when the entire point of the pre-test is to INFORM the PR (person Responsible) that the horse has a problem or not.

As Lynch points out--he has been using Equi-Block in his saddle area for over a year, being tested at event after event--as the horse has a solid competition record and enough wins to require fairly continuous testing.

What a farce!

Guess once again the FEI and WADA forgot that some people really can be innocent.

Well, that's another career WADA has managed to sabotage-=-this time with the help of the FEI.


Excellent point. By the way, there is also the possibility of lab contamination. As I keep mentioning, that was a big issue in the Duke rape case, where they found upon examining the lab results that the tests were so sensitive that they even indicated that the lab technician's DNA was on the alleged victim's body -- and we know *he* was not at that party. The problem is, that in this case, even if there was lab or sample contamination, it happens that a topical ointment was being used that did contain the prohibited substance. So whether by coincidence or by accuracy of the testing, they now have a "positive: result that can be matched up with prohibited conduct.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:34 AM
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12550&nID=43&src=RA

"Although capsaicin "has always been considered illegal ... the laboratories have only recently found ways to discover it," Farrington said. "The specific test was introduced two years ago. This is the first time it has been discovered in sport horses. Previously, only one case in racing has been known.""


I do not think that is correct. It was at least 3 years ago that I researched whether Black as Knight, containing paprika, would be a problem, and found that paprika contains capsaicin, the prohibited substance, and I was aware at the time that it would test. In fact, I am fairly certain there are threads going back at least that early about capsaicin causing positive test results.




Equi-Block is going to have to spend some money in reprinting/packaging their labels. That said, I have never taken manufacture guarantees as the gospel, especially something as vague as "will not test".

That company should be concerned about a lot more than the cost of putting new labels on their products. And there is nothing vague about the phrase "will not test" in terms of whether it will or will "not test." What is vague is whether they intended to mean the product does not enter the bloodstream when administered topically or whether it simply does not do so in a dose sufficient to test positive. But their representation, "contains capsaicin, will not test," is directly contrary to what occurred.

atr
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:36 AM
Capsaicin is a banned substance because it "can" be used nefariously as well at therapeutically. There's currently no way to test whether the concentration in the horse's blood stream is because someone used Equiblock, or because they were painting undiluted capsicum extract onto the horse's cannon bones.

The rules are in place to protect the horse, and in that case must always look at the worst case scanario. I think you would all agree with that.

Anyone with half a brain and a computer, or indeed a USEF or FEI rule book, KNOWS it's a banned substance. So why on earth be so frikkin' stupid as to use it? Words fail me.

Jane
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:46 AM
I do not think that is correct. It was at least 3 years ago that I researched whether Black as Knight, containing paprika, would be a problem, and found that paprika contains capsaicin, the prohibited substance, and I was aware at the time that it would test. In fact, I am fairly certain there are threads going back at least that early about capsaicin causing positive test results.

I believe that statement was referring to the specific test done by the HKJC.




That company should be concerned about a lot more than the cost of putting new labels on their products. And there is nothing vague about the phrase "will not test" in terms of whether it will or will "not test." What is vague is whether they intended to mean the product does not enter the bloodstream when administered topically or whether it simply does not do so in a dose sufficient to test positive. But their representation, "contains capsaicin, will not test," is directly contrary to what occurred.

My comment about the label was meant to be humorous. As for it being "vague", I meant vague in the sense that it isn't even a complete statement...you know, as in, "will not test.....FOR WHAT?" ;)

bluemoonfarms
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:56 AM
Yankee Lawyer - What do you feel the probability is that all four positives were due to "lab contamination" ? Or any single positive? Do you really believe that the vets and others responsible for these horses care felt it was within the rules to use a banned substance as a topical ointment only and not to be ingested? What percentage of average people showing their horses do you think would find this true? You may not like the rules but they all are required to abide by them.

poltroon
Aug. 22, 2008, 01:46 AM
I agree it was the job of the competitors not to use any substance containing capsaicin. In particular, the Germans should be well aware that topical applications are not safe. (The other NFs involved have a lot less infrastructure to help with that.)

However, I'm not sure I agree that it should be banned at zero tolerance. And I'm sorry that with all the testing that goes on, that the same performance, same routine, got caught at the Olympics and not any time earlier.

The point of the drug testing rules is to prevent competitors from taking a competitive advantage by risking short-term or long-term harm to themselves or to their horses. So, you have to ask, what is the competitive advantage of this substance and what is the harm. There is the possibility of harm when it is used as an irritant, but do other measures in place (leg inspections etc) prevent that possibility? There is the possibility of harm if a lame horse can be passed as sound and if riding that horse will cause him harm - can capsaicin have that effect? I am not certain of the answer. It makes me wonder if the gymnasts and track and field athletes are eating a lot of spicy food and rubbing a lot of capsaicin creams on their various knees and ankles. ;) Or if maybe they should start.

I was very disappointed in Melanie Smith-Taylor's comments on the broadcast that implied that any/all of the four riders named must have used it as an irritant on the legs and thus deliberately caused cruelty to their horses. I think they showed poor management and judgement within the rule book, but it's much more likely it was used for its painkilling properties. I am upset that she didn't even mention capsaicin or how many common horsekeeping products contain it. It wasn't fair to the riders and it wasn't fair to the sport.

bluemoonfarms
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:10 AM
On a lighter note here is an attempt at humor directed at the Olympics and drug use:

http://www.cagle.com/news/Olympicsdrugs/main.asp

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 06:13 AM
Yankee Lawyer - What do you feel the probability is that all four positives were due to "lab contamination" ? Or any single positive? Do you really believe that the vets and others responsible for these horses care felt it was within the rules to use a banned substance as a topical ointment only and not to be ingested? What percentage of average people showing their horses do you think would find this true? You may not like the rules but they all are required to abide by them.

Arguably, the fact that there were four positives rather than one makes it more likely there was lab contamination. What if ALL the samples came back positive -- do you think contamination would be more or less likely? I have seen enough cases of lab contamination to think it is definitely a possibility. Does it matter in this case? Not really, given that we already have admitted conduct that is problematic -- as I said, whether coincidental or not (though I am not sure that applies to ALL the riders; I think only some said they used Equi-block).

I don't know what the vets and others thought about the rules. I was just saying that I could see how, to the extent some are saying they did not realize it was a problem when used topically, they may have assumed that it is only a problem if it enters the bloodstream, and thought it did not. I personally had never heard of it being a blistering agent (which btw if used that way would show up on the horse's legs), and it never would have ocurred to me that it is sometimes used like that. But as I said, if it were *me* I would ask the proper authorities if I had any question about the substance BEFORE using it, and I would get a response from them in writing.

I am very much a rules-oriented person, and believe me, no one feels more strongly than I do that you have to comply with the rules. I think the rules could be a bit more clear, and my query about the purpose of the rules was referring to what, perhaps, should be done moving forward.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 06:18 AM
I was very disappointed in Melanie Smith-Taylor's comments on the broadcast that implied that any/all of the four riders named must have used it as an irritant on the legs and thus deliberately caused cruelty to their horses. I think they showed poor management and judgement within the rule book, but it's much more likely it was used for its painkilling properties. I am upset that she didn't even mention capsaicin or how many common horsekeeping products contain it. It wasn't fair to the riders and it wasn't fair to the sport.

I really think that was outrageous, and there was also an FEI vet who stated that the substance is NEVER given orally, only topically, which obviously is wrong. I could not believe my eyes when I saw that -- the first thing I thought of was Black as Knight, silly as it may sound. Even *I* know that, and I am not a vet, obviously. It seriously makes you wonder if the FEI vets need more training regarding the prohibited substances list.

jse
Aug. 22, 2008, 08:03 AM
I agree it was the job of the competitors not to use any substance containing capsaicin. In particular, the Germans should be well aware that topical applications are not safe. (The other NFs involved have a lot less infrastructure to help with that.)

However, I'm not sure I agree that it should be banned at zero tolerance. And I'm sorry that with all the testing that goes on, that the same performance, same routine, got caught at the Olympics and not any time earlier.

The point of the drug testing rules is to prevent competitors from taking a competitive advantage by risking short-term or long-term harm to themselves or to their horses. So, you have to ask, what is the competitive advantage of this substance and what is the harm. There is the possibility of harm when it is used as an irritant, but do other measures in place (leg inspections etc) prevent that possibility? There is the possibility of harm if a lame horse can be passed as sound and if riding that horse will cause him harm - can capsaicin have that effect? I am not certain of the answer. It makes me wonder if the gymnasts and track and field athletes are eating a lot of spicy food and rubbing a lot of capsaicin creams on their various knees and ankles. ;) Or if maybe they should start.

I was very disappointed in Melanie Smith-Taylor's comments on the broadcast that implied that any/all of the four riders named must have used it as an irritant on the legs and thus deliberately caused cruelty to their horses. I think they showed poor management and judgement within the rule book, but it's much more likely it was used for its painkilling properties. I am upset that she didn't even mention capsaicin or how many common horsekeeping products contain it. It wasn't fair to the riders and it wasn't fair to the sport.

I'm a little slow and just found out about what the jumpers call "burning". The topic came up when capsaicin was mentioned.
Do any of you know what "burning" a horse is? I'm NOT in agreement with it but SOME jumpers do it and it might explain WHY FEI has it banned. It's not very nice. They shave the horses legs as close to the skin as possible (with a 10 clipper blade) then they scrub the horses legs very hard with a stiff brush for about 5 minutes and then apply Equi-bloc. They wait a certain amount of time (not sure what amount) then they hose the leg down with COLD water. This burns the horse and especially when they put the boots on, if the horse hits a jump it hurts like hell and it causes them to pick their feet up more the next time they jump. So in a sense it's a "performance enhancer".
While watching the Individuals yesterday there were a few horses who in the team jumping round did not lift their feet as well as they did yesterday....made me wonder if they had been "burned".....
Anyway, just maybe an explanation as to why capsaicin is a banned substance...and also maybe HOW the horses had the "drug" in their systems.

Ghazzu
Aug. 22, 2008, 08:09 AM
I am sure many would be horrified to hear that years ago trainers routinely gave banamine to horses that were on stressful show schedules (doing so was legal at the time). It was not done to impact soundness, but rather to help prevent colic, and I am sure it also helped some of the older made horses feel better as well.

Not horrified, but perhaps mildly amused, as flunixin will not prevent colic, and may, in fact, contribute to it if overused--see gastric ulcers and right dorsal colitis for details...

There are any number of pharmaceuticals used inappropriately.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 08:53 AM
I'm a little slow and just found out about what the jumpers call "burning". The topic came up when capsaicin was mentioned.
Do any of you know what "burning" a horse is? I'm NOT in agreement with it but many jumpers do it and it might explain WHY FEI has it banned. It's not very nice. .

You just found out about "what the jumpers call 'burning' and yet now you are aware that supposedly "many jumpers do it"? I really have no idea who you people hang out with, but in my many, many years on the A circuit in the jumpers and hunters I never knew anyone who did this (I am sure some nefarious creature probably did, but no one among the trainers and riders I knew did). I also was aware that some trainers poled their hores, or jumped them over a tack rail, but that was not something I would say "many" did, again, it certainly was not done by the people I trained with.

I have no idea, obviously, of why or how the capsaicin was used for the horses at the Olympics (I will point out also that they are still awaiting the results of the B samples), but you guys really are quick to assume the worst about people.

Does anyone remember what happened to Meredith Michaels Beerbaum leading up to the 2004 Olympics? She was kept off the team because of a positive test, which she and the team members vigorously contested. Except they did not get the final results and a definitive decision until after the Olympics -- when she was cleared of the allegations. That, to me, is really tragic, and on some level I really hope that no one was denied a chance to compete in the individual competition who should not have been.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 08:55 AM
Not horrified, but perhaps mildly amused, as flunixin will not prevent colic, and may, in fact, contribute to it if overused--see gastric ulcers and right dorsal colitis for details...


I think the theory was that because it is typically given at the first signs of colic distress, giving it to ahorse at increased risk for colic was an effective prophylactic measure. This was a long time ago, though, when it was legal to give banamine (and at the time, bute) for competition.

jse
Aug. 22, 2008, 09:14 AM
You just found out about "what the jumpers call 'burning' and yet now you are aware that supposedly "many jumpers do it"? I really have no idea who you people hang out with, but in my many, many years on the A circuit in the jumpers and hunters I never knew anyone who did this (I am sure some nefarious creature probably did, but no one among the trainers and riders I knew did). I also was aware that some trainers poled their hores, or jumped them over a tack rail, but that was not something I would say "many" did, again, it certainly was not done by the people I trained with.

I have no idea, obviously, of why or how the capsaicin was used for the horses at the Olympics (I will point out also that they are still awaiting the results of the B samples), but you guys really are quick to assume the worst about people.

Does anyone remember what happened to Meredith Michaels Beerbaum leading up to the 2004 Olympics? She was kept off the team because of a positive test, which she and the team members vigorously contested. Except they did not get the final results and a definitive decision until after the Olympics -- when she was cleared of the allegations. That, to me, is really tragic, and on some level I really hope that no one was denied a chance to compete in the individual competition who should not have been.

You are mistaken. I was not trying to flame jumpers in my post. I am on your side in this matter, I was just using that as an example of why maybe the FEI has it banned. Because it can possibly be a performance enhancer.
I think if you read my previous posts I'm definitely against condemning jumpers or any group of equestrian people based on what I hear from others. The information I was given was from people who currently work for jumper trainers and they stated what they do with Equi-bloc on occasion when a horse is knocking rails. ("burning")
I edited my post to say that SOME jumpers do this because it's true, not all of them do it and from what I hear they don't do it often. And I also edited the abuse part, because that's just my opinion of this, and it should not reflect that jumpers are abusers. I believe show jumpers are the most taken care of animals and know not one that doesn't live a happy life.

DMK
Aug. 22, 2008, 09:14 AM
The FEI's party line is "hay, water and oats" - everything else is "banned".

Extremes on both ends are never a good thing. I'll happily sit here and tell you I think the current USEF rules allowing obscene amounts of dex and stacking of all but 2 particular NSAIDs is an idea taken too far to one extreme. And I'll just as happily sit here and say that the FEI has found the other extreme and taken it too far. Neither seem to be particularly good for the horse at this point.

Amazingly enough we seem to have the ability to detect fairly minute levels of any substance we can test for. It is not a giant club we are using here, it is an instrument with finesse. This means we have the ability to identify trace and residual amounts, substances which are in no way affectig the performance of the horse at the time of competition. We wouldn't even be the first to do this, many racing jurisdictions embraced this years ago. But if we are at the point where apparently no lab on the planet can detect a relatively benign substance like equi-block except THIS particular lab, and we are willing to kick a rider out of the individual finals, based on that... All I can say is it isn't just politics that has entered the Silly Season.

Establish threshholds. Defend them scientifically as non-performance enhancing. Publish them for ALL the world to see. And report what levels were found when horses come up positive.

MHM
Aug. 22, 2008, 09:21 AM
This was a long time ago, though, when it was legal to give banamine (and at the time, bute) for competition.

Huh? Have the USEF drug rules changed recently to prohibit these substances?

Or are you talking about FEI rules?

Ghazzu
Aug. 22, 2008, 09:30 AM
I think the theory was that because it is typically given at the first signs of colic distress, giving it to ahorse at increased risk for colic was an effective prophylactic measure. This was a long time ago, though, when it was legal to give banamine (and at the time, bute) for competition.
I don't doubt that was the *theory*, just pointing out that there is a lot of inappropriate use of pharmaceuticals, supplements, etc. based on a lack of understanding.In the context of international competition, perhaps it is wiser to err on the side of caution, eh?

S A McKee
Aug. 22, 2008, 09:40 AM
You just found out about "what the jumpers call 'burning' and yet now you are aware that supposedly "many jumpers do it"? I really have no idea who you people hang out with, but in my many, many years on the A circuit in the jumpers and hunters I never knew anyone who did this (I am sure some nefarious creature probably did, but no one among the trainers and riders I knew did). I also was aware that some trainers poled their hores, or jumped them over a tack rail, but that was not something I would say "many" did, again, it certainly was not done by the people I trained with.


You must have led a sheltered life if you weren't aware of those methods.

Gry2Yng
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:38 AM
Extremes on both ends are never a good thing. I'll happily sit here and tell you I think the current USEF rules allowing obscene amounts of dex and stacking of all but 2 particular NSAIDs is an idea taken too far to one extreme. And I'll just as happily sit here and say that the FEI has found the other extreme and taken it too far. Neither seem to be particularly good for the horse at this point.

Amazingly enough we seem to have the ability to detect fairly minute levels of any substance we can test for. It is not a giant club we are using here, it is an instrument with finesse. This means we have the ability to identify trace and residual amounts, substances which are in no way affectig the performance of the horse at the time of competition. We wouldn't even be the first to do this, many racing jurisdictions embraced this years ago. But if we are at the point where apparently no lab on the planet can detect a relatively benign substance like equi-block except THIS particular lab, and we are willing to kick a rider out of the individual finals, based on that... All I can say is it isn't just politics that has entered the Silly Season.

Establish threshholds. Defend them scientifically as non-performance enhancing. Publish them for ALL the world to see. And report what levels were found when horses come up positive.

My statement regarding "hay water and oats" was not an endorsement of the FEI policy. Simply a statement that there is nothing unclear about zero tolerance. Personally, if I need two alieve after my cross country ride, I think my horse should be entitled as well. But according to the rules he is not even entitled to a liniment bath. I don't agree with zero tolerance, but once you open the barn door, you have to decide what, how much, when, etc.

Given that banned substances are being used under a zero tolerance policy, what would happen if some substances were allowed?

DMK
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:52 AM
I don't agree with zero tolerance, but once you open the barn door, you have to decide what, how much, when, etc.

Exactly, but it has been done in many racing jurisdictions. We have the technology... we can rebuild this ma... wait, wrong overacted drama... ;)


Given that banned substances are being used under a zero tolerance policy, what would happen if some substances were allowed?

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Or at least if the thresholds were established and published and when a positive was verified the whole world could see exactly how far over that threshold the result was. Would this system be perfect? No. Would people still try to game the system? Yes. Would they succeed? I have no doubt. Would it seem just slightly less ridiculous than the current process? It's hard to see how it couldn't...

caffeinated
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:58 AM
Given that banned substances are being used under a zero tolerance policy, what would happen if some substances were allowed?

By the same token- under a zero tolerance policy, I think people could potentially get more creative about trying to use stuff on their horses- it fuels a drive to find other things that work that "don't test" which could also be potentially dangerous. That's probably a relatively weak argument, but it is something we've seen in the horse world.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:58 AM
You must have led a sheltered life if you weren't aware of those methods.

I guess I just don't hang around cheaters. As for sheltered, I have owned and campaigned grand prix horses in international competition. Have you?

Do you really believe that "many" burned their horse's legs?

I am not going to argue with you guys. I just really hate the lynch mob mentality. But that should not be surprising given that we have people like Melanie Taylor-Smith saying outrageous and ill-informd things, even before the conclusion of the investigation.

Gry2Yng
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:01 AM
By the same token- under a zero tolerance policy, I think people could potentially get more creative about trying to use stuff on their horses- it fuels a drive to find other things that work that "don't test" which could also be potentially dangerous. That's probably a relatively weak argument, but it is something we've seen in the horse world.

Sigh. You are correct. It is probably no different than under age drinking or central american drug smuggling.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:05 AM
In the context of international competition, perhaps it is wiser to err on the side of caution, eh?

Without a doubt. As I said, if I were considering using a cream or liniment with a prohibited substance in it (and there were no alternative), I would ask the advice of the proper authorities and find out how much withdrawal time, if any, is required.

dags
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:12 AM
It required many more hours of TLC for each horse and sometimes our horses would still be sore and not compete as well but that's the risk you take. At least we never failed a drug test.


"our horses would still be sore"

See, this is not okay with me, and the fact that I had the righteous claim of never having failed a drug test certainly does not justify this.

I honestly can't believe these Olympic level horses are that dull that they need an irritant just to get a little more snap. Have you seen those beasts??!! There's not a lazy one out there. I will go as far as to admit they have been prepped their whole lives, at various degrees of innocence, but I will not buy into what is being supposed about these particular charges. And do not assume I don't know what I'm talking about.

DMK, I have agreed with everything you've said. Reexamine the no foreign substance rule, our horses deserve the same protection from the normal wear and tear of a world class athlete that the humans are allowed. Positive tests such as this one (not all) are bad apples that are directly affecting the comfort and well-being of every single horse on the International circuit. This is not acceptable, and anyone on board with the sensationalist view of this issue- (and now that I'm aware of it I am pissed with MTS's coverage)- is a direct contributor to this biased, inhumane extreme that withholds the same basic pain relief that every single other athlete at the Olympic games is relying on.

Ugh. Off soapbox and switching to decaf now . . .

jse
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:22 AM
I guess I just don't hang around cheaters. Do you really believe that "many" burned their horse's legs?

I am not going to argue with you guys. I just really hate the lynch mob mentality. But that should not be surprising given that we have people like Melanie Taylor-Smith saying outrageous and ill-informd things, even before the conclusion of the investigation.


Once again, I wasn't "lynching" anyone! Just informing people of the method that SOME jumpers use. If you read, I changed that statement because I realize that it may not be right to say that "many" of them do it because I truly don't know how MANY jumpers use this method. Mistake on my part. I hardly doubt burning is used during competition though, I believe it is used in schooling the horses so that hitting the rails doesn't happen often in competition. I can't see how you could do this to a horse more than once in a blue moon without showing visible signs that you're doing it. (i.e. blistering and swelling) Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

GreekDressageQueen
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:24 AM
"our horses would still be sore"

See, this is not okay with me, and the fact that I had the righteous claim of never having failed a drug test certainly does not justify this.



Oh - HEY - hold yer horses there! I'm not trying to be "righteous" or anything. I just wanted to say that some people will try to stick by the rules and may suffer some consequences for it and other people will not, but that's part of sports and every individual has to decide which side they want to be on . I certainly don't imply by "sore" that our horses were lame. They would have been pulled from competition if that was the case, but you can't tell me that not one single athlete (human and/or horse) wouldn't be "sore" after jumping 2-3 rounds at 1.50 a day. We just didn't ever want to even risk failing a drug test so we only used very natural (ice, water, hot rags, massage, etc.) to give relief. It was possible, it can be done, it's just a choice - that was my point.

dags
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:25 AM
I can't see how you could do this to a horse more than once in a blue moon without showing visible signs that you're doing it. (i.e. blistering and swelling) Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

Correct :)

dags
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:29 AM
I know GDQ, but, the swimmers are sore, the gymnasts are sore, everyone is sore and their probably downing a bottle of advil a week and keeping Dr. Been Gay in business.

Your post wasn't actually the sensationalism I was talking about it . . . that was probably a different tirade related to certain trolls that were polluting the waters yesterday, and others that just insist it's unheard of for someone to afford their horse some relief from pain.

poltroon
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:33 AM
I have no doubt that some people use capsaicin in a vile fashion to try to get jumpers to be more careful... but I am also skeptical that it works all that well. I recommend people try it: rough up your own skin, slather your legs with your capsaicin preparation of choice, and see if it makes you a better jumper.

On the other hand, I am intrigued by the evidence I dug up that suggests that it may not only ease arthritis pain, but actually limit/prevent damage to the joint, as adequan/legend do.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:35 AM
Once again, I wasn't "lynching" anyone! Just informing people of the method that SOME jumpers use. If you read, I changed that statement because I realize that it may not be right to say that "many" of them do it because I truly don't know how MANY jumpers use this method. Mistake on my part. I hardly doubt burning is used during competition though, I believe it is used in schooling the horses so that hitting the rails doesn't happen often in competition. I can't see how you could do this to a horse more than once in a blue moon without showing visible signs that you're doing it. (i.e. blistering and swelling) Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

JSE, I know, I know...apologies, I was not responding to your post, but that of others. And in response to McKee, I should have pointed out that no one was alleging that many people did this (and that you had revised your post).

Regarding Bluemoon's earlier question re the likelihood of lab or sample contamination given that we have 4 positives.. please note that to date we have the results from only 15 of the showjumpers (and all the dressage horses and eventers), and that of the SJ horses tested, only 1 from each medal team. So they got 4 positives from 15 horses for the exact same substance, allegedly used by riders from 4 different countries? I suppose if everyone is using that same liniment, it's possible.

But of course the FEI is its own PR nightmare - -as the Secretary General immediately declares:

"This is certainly a serious blow to our sport," . . . It is serious because in all four cases the positive result was for the same substance. I'm not sure if we can call it a trend, but it adds to the seriousness of the case."

He might consider that it is a bit odd that such a high percentage tested positive for the same substance, and at the very least might have waited for the results of he B sample and the conclusion of the investigation. And I don't think, in this circumstance, one can conclude that multiple positives means the problem is more "serious;" it may very well reflect the fact that more than one person was using a rather innocuous liniment that was generally viewed as not being a problem, and which had never resulted in a positive test in previous competitions.

Gry2Yng
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:35 AM
"our horses would still be sore"

See, this is not okay with me, and the fact that I had the righteous claim of never having failed a drug test certainly does not justify this.

I honestly can't believe these Olympic level horses are that dull that they need an irritant just to get a little more snap. Have you seen those beasts??!! There's not a lazy one out there. I will go as far as to admit they have been prepped their whole lives, at various degrees of innocence, but I will not buy into what is being supposed about these particular charges. And do not assume I don't know what I'm talking about.

DMK, I have agreed with everything you've said. Reexamine the no foreign substance rule, our horses deserve the same protection from the normal wear and tear of a world class athlete that the humans are allowed. Positive tests such as this one (not all) are bad apples that are directly affecting the comfort and well-being of every single horse on the International circuit. This is not acceptable, and anyone on board with the sensationalist view of this issue- (and now that I'm aware of it I am pissed with MTS's coverage)- is a direct contributor to this biased, inhumane extreme that withholds the same basic pain relief that every single other athlete at the Olympic games is relying on.

Ugh. Off soapbox and switching to decaf now . . .

I agree with every word you have written, but the fact that the FEI needs a change of policy is a separate issue. Rule was broken. Everyone in that game should know how to play it by now - meaning if you stretch the limits, you may get caught. Even the use of a topical may get you in trouble.

I have the ultimate sympathy if samples are/were contaminated. I have no sympathy for the excuse that a topical was used and has been used in the past and everyone uses it and no positive test results have occurred in the past. If you decide to walk a fine line you must be prepared for the stiff breeze to come along.

BLBGP
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:47 AM
I find it interesting that many people are automatically believing that this product was being used in a nefarious way. Even MST on the broadcast said that the product is used to make horse's leg sting so they jump higher. No mention of the way it is used so commonly and with the intent to help horses, not hurt them. Sort of like Ben Gay for us. Maybe, just maybe, these guys used the product in a common (albeit stupid, since it's banned under FEI rules) way.

The product is still illegal under the rules and they should still be eliminated from the competition. But the assumption that the product is definitely being used in an evil way is saddening.

jse
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:55 AM
I find it interesting that many people are automatically believing that this product was being used in a nefarious way. Even MST on the broadcast said that the product is used to make horse's leg sting so they jump higher. No mention of the way it is used so commonly and with the intent to help horses, not hurt them. Sort of like Ben Gay for us. Maybe, just maybe, these guys used the product in a common (albeit stupid, since it's banned under FEI rules) way.

The product is still illegal under the rules and they should still be eliminated from the competition. But the assumption that the product is definitely being used in an evil way is saddening.

I don't think anyone is assuming that. I know I'm not, for sure I bet you the athletes that tested positive used this product the way it is intended to be used.
I had no earthly idea that some people even did this until it was confirmed to me yesterday by someone I know....
But apparently there are lots of "tricks" out there. (i.e. velcro boots without padding, carpet tacking jumps etc...)

Edgar
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:02 PM
Horse Sport Ireland - Statement on Denis Lynch

August 20, 2008 — HORSE Sport Ireland (HSI) was informed by the world equestrian governing body, the FEI, at 2:15 p.m. Hong Kong time today (Thursday), that Irish Olympic rider Denis Lynch's horse 'Lantinus' had tested positive for a banned substance and that as a result he would be suspended from taking part in tonight's show jumping final.

Denis Lynch and Horse Sport Ireland officials attended a preliminary hearing with the FEI a short time ago and were informed that the substance found in the horse was called capsaicin.

At the tribunal the FEI indicated that this substance was an ingredient in some products in regular use. Subsequently it was identified by Denis Lynch as an ingredient in a product called "Equi-block" used by him on his horse. Equi-block is a product used in similar circumstances to 'Deep Heat' used on humans and Denis Lynch explained to the tribunal that he commonly applies Equiblock to the horse's lower back prior to exercise.

Denis Lynch holds up the tub of a Equi-Block, which contains capsaicin, during yesterday's press conference in Hong Kong. The label claims that it will NOT TEST POSITIVE and vet Marcus Swain invited journalists to rub the lotion into their own skin.

Following this preliminary hearing today the FEI informed Denis Lynch that he remained suspended for tonight's competition.

The FEI have subsequently confirmed that three other riders due to jump in tonight's final at Hong Kong have also been suspended as a result of the same substance being found in their horses.

Horse Sport Ireland has confirmed that they submitted a urine sample from the horse to a voluntary screening testing process made available by the FEI on the horse's arrival in Hong Kong and the results of this test were negative.

The horse has also been tested on numerous occasions, including following many of its recent victories, and has tested negative on all these occasions.

Gry2Yng
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:14 PM
I find it interesting that many people are automatically believing that this product was being used in a nefarious way. Even MST on the broadcast said that the product is used to make horse's leg sting so they jump higher. No mention of the way it is used so commonly and with the intent to help horses, not hurt them. Sort of like Ben Gay for us. Maybe, just maybe, these guys used the product in a common (albeit stupid, since it's banned under FEI rules) way.

The product is still illegal under the rules and they should still be eliminated from the competition. But the assumption that the product is definitely being used in an evil way is saddening.

I am also not making the assumption that the use was nefarious. Regardless of purpose it was against the rules as they stand and when you chose to participate, you accept the rules.

dags
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:14 PM
I agree with every word you have written, but the fact that the FEI needs a change of policy is a separate issue. Rule was broken. Everyone in that game should know how to play it by now - meaning if you stretch the limits, you may get caught. Even the use of a topical may get you in trouble.

I have the ultimate sympathy if samples are/were contaminated. I have no sympathy for the excuse that a topical was used and has been used in the past and everyone uses it and no positive test results have occurred in the past. If you decide to walk a fine line you must be prepared for the stiff breeze to come along.

I like the stiff breeze analogy :)

But I'm not sure how I feel about a horse that has undergone numerous drug tests all year long and, continuing to use the same theraputic treatment it always has, suddenly gets pulled from the Olympics hours before the event. I've always used paprika, and stopped about 10 days out from a show. Back when I was a constant user of Equi-block, I believe I used it right at the show, though I stopped the paprika, because of the capsacin (I'm sick of trying to remember how to spell that word, sry :/)

So to me the impression was that injested=bad, topical=okay. I'm certainly no FEI competitor, and I admit this would certainly make me consider the equi-block use more carefully, but if he's been using it all year long, getting tested all the time, horse is going GREAT . . . you see? I don't think it's fair. I certainly don't think it's fair to get DQ'd before the whole thing is even settled, he may never get that Olympic chance again.

It's one thing to walk the line when you know you're trying to cheat, it's another to be strutting along innocently, trying to help your horse, doing the same thing under the same rules that you have always done, and be sidelined by the gale force winds drummed up by another :(

nycjumper
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:15 PM
jse - you may not be assuming that all of those riders implicated were using it for evil reasons but a lot of posters are.

I used to be on the zero tolerance policy side. However, as I've gotten older (and maybe a little wiser;) ), I'm inclined to say set a fair limit and work with it. Horses campaigning at any level have a lot of wear and tear and they deserve some relief. We probably would be a lot better off if we didn't put our horses through a never-ending show circuit but that is another thread entirely. Like DMK said, I think there is a happy medium btwn NOTHING allowed and perhaps the ah more..creative med stacking that goes on that is technically legal. Why shouldn't our horses get some liniment or pain relief?

And again, yes, I get that this stuff can be used to hypersensitive the horse. But there are a lot of other ways you can remind the horse to pick up his legs that are legal & won't test.

There will always be some that cheat. Just a fact. We hope we catch them. But it seems to me that this zero tolerance policy winds up hurting the horses and probably those that are most guilty aren't even being caught b/c they're constantly ahead of the game when it comes to new & creative methods to beat the system.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:41 PM
There will always be some that cheat. Just a fact. We hope we catch them. But it seems to me that this zero tolerance policy winds up hurting the horses and probably those that are most guilty aren't even being caught b/c they're constantly ahead of the game when it comes to new & creative methods to beat the system.

By the way, that is exactly correct. If someone really wants to game the system, there are more effective and less detectible ways of doing it.

MHM
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:45 PM
I find it interesting that many people are automatically believing that this product was being used in a nefarious way. Even MST on the broadcast said that the product is used to make horse's leg sting so they jump higher. No mention of the way it is used so commonly and with the intent to help horses, not hurt them. Sort of like Ben Gay for us. Maybe, just maybe, these guys used the product in a common (albeit stupid, since it's banned under FEI rules) way.

The product is still illegal under the rules and they should still be eliminated from the competition. But the assumption that the product is definitely being used in an evil way is saddening.

A quick history lesson for those who may not know:

IIRC, Melanie Smith Taylor won a gold medal at the Los Angeles Olympics in 1984, almost a quarter of a century ago. She had been a very successful competitor at the very highest levels of the sport for at least a decade before that.

So you may or may not agree with her views on this matter, but she certainly is entitled to her opinion, since she has ample experience to back it up.

She has an Olympic Show Jumping gold medal on her resume. I don't. Do you?

BLBGP
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:52 PM
A quick history lesson for those who may not know:

Melanie Smith Taylor won a gold medal at the Los Angeles Olympics in 1984, almost a quarter of a century ago. She had been a very successful competitor at the very highest levels of the sport for at least a decade before that.

So you may or may not agree with her views on this matter, but she certainly is entitled to her opinion, since she has ample experience to back it up.

She has an Olympic Show Jumping gold medal on her resume. I don't. Do you?

I know who she is. But even though she is highly knowledgable, she does tend to dumb things down for her audience. For example, she often said "the horse just didn't pick his legs up high enough" when a rail came down when she knows, and we know, that a lot more factors went into it than that. I can only assume that she also knows that capsaican is in many common linaments around the barn. But it was a fairly short segment, perhaps there wasn't time to go into that. Just watching the NBD broadcast, though, it sounded like the only intent in using the drug was evil as a way to cause pain to the horse.

MHM
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:59 PM
I would imagine part of her job is to "dumb things down" enough to communicate to the average TV viewer, who may know nothing about horses.

As you say, perhaps if she had more time, she might have gone into more detail on the various possibilities behind the suspensions.

My point is that she has plenty of experience to have an informed opinion on all those possibilities. If her broadcast partner (whatever his name was) had made the same comment, that would have been much more offensive to me, since he obviously doesn't know anything about the sport. She most certainly does.

BTW, I was not directing this exclusively at the poster I quoted, but at all those who criticized Olympic gold medalist Melanie Smith Taylor for stating her opinion.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 01:14 PM
A quick history lesson for those who may not know:

IIRC, Melanie Smith Taylor won a gold medal at the Los Angeles Olympics in 1984, almost a quarter of a century ago. She had been a very successful competitor at the very highest levels of the sport for at least a decade before that.

So you may or may not agree with her views on this matter, but she certainly is entitled to her opinion, since she has ample experience to back it up.

She has an Olympic Show Jumping gold medal on her resume. I don't. Do you?

I think it makes it that much more outrageous that she would declare, before the completion of any investigation, that the substance had to be used for the most nefarious purpose, and failed to mention that it is a substance that is commonly used for other innocuous purposes as well (which is a separate issue from whether any use is permitted under the rules; a violation is a violation). I think her comments were reprehensible and unprofessional. Why bother having a process for testing A and B samples, and a hearing and appeals process, since we have people like her who somehow know definitively what *must* have occurred in these cases without even investigating. But as I already pointed out, we also had an FEI vet insisting the substance is NEVER given orally, which is total BS. Oh, but wait...he is a vet, and an FEI vet at that. Since I don't have a veterinary license, he must know better.

p.s. Clearly an Olympic Gold Medal is no certification as to the winner's knowledge of the drug rules. Cases in point: 2004 individual and team gold medal disqualifications for drug violations.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 01:20 PM
I would imagine part of her job is to "dumb things down" enough to communicate to the average TV viewer, who may know nothing about horses.

As you say, perhaps if she had more time, she might have gone into more detail on the various possibilities behind the suspensions.

.

Then she could simply have said there is an investigation pending (btw, I do handle crisis management PR frequently as part of my work; in my opinion this incident was handled very, very poorly and it is not as though it is the first time the FEI has had to deal with such a thing -- even at the Olympics).

Gry2Yng
Aug. 22, 2008, 01:41 PM
I like the stiff breeze analogy :)

But I'm not sure how I feel about a horse that has undergone numerous drug tests all year long and, continuing to use the same theraputic treatment it always has, suddenly gets pulled from the Olympics hours before the event. I've always used paprika, and stopped about 10 days out from a show. Back when I was a constant user of Equi-block, I believe I used it right at the show, though I stopped the paprika, because of the capsacin (I'm sick of trying to remember how to spell that word, sry :/)

So to me the impression was that injested=bad, topical=okay. I'm certainly no FEI competitor, and I admit this would certainly make me consider the equi-block use more carefully, but if he's been using it all year long, getting tested all the time, horse is going GREAT . . . you see? I don't think it's fair. I certainly don't think it's fair to get DQ'd before the whole thing is even settled, he may never get that Olympic chance again.

It's one thing to walk the line when you know you're trying to cheat, it's another to be strutting along innocently, trying to help your horse, doing the same thing under the same rules that you have always done, and be sidelined by the gale force winds drummed up by another :(


Let me know if you think the following situation is analogous(other than a bit having no therapeutic value) , it occurred at a horse trial this past weekend.

During the dressage test, judge notices that the competitor appears to be using a slow twist snaffle (good eyes on that judge). Competitor is stopped and bit is "re-checked". Bit is in fact a slow twist which is an illegal bit in the dressage phase of a horse trial.

Competitor is eliminated. Competitor argues that the volunteer performing the bit check did not notice the illegal bit. The competitor has been using the slow twist all summer and no one noticed. Thus, she should not be eliminated. TD asks if the competitor knew the bit was illegal. Competitor says she did know. In fact her coach told her not to use the bit, but she did anyway.

In my mind, these situations are exactly the same, with the exception of the fact that the Irishman MAY have been trying to "help" his horse, which ultimately he was doing in order to improve his performance. Same as the young lady above. The fact that people have been getting by the drug tests only means that they were successfully breaking the rules, not that it was okay.

Again, I am not siding with the FEI on the no tolerance policy, but "I have been doing it for months and no one said a word" is not a valid defense. The use of ANYTHING other than food and water at an FEI event is against the rules. Topical, injected or given orally. The rider in question may have had a noble purpose, but he should have known he was breaking the rules. Our federation will tell you in no uncertain terms that topicals are just as illegal as oral or im or iv meds or supplements. They will also tell you that you probably won't get nailed for putting vetrolin in your horses wash bucket, but they won't tell you it is okay.

FWIW, I have ridden at the FEI level in eventing since 2001 and have Chef'd for three different Young Riders Teams and also groomed at many FEI events. None of this is a big secret. The kids at young riders know these things. It is sad that the Irish rider thought he had found a way around the rules and it caught up with him at the Olympics of all places, but the blame rests squarely on his shoulders.

It is not legal to administer adaquan and legend at an FEI event. It is done, but you can bet if you get caught doing it there will be a fine to pay. If the FEI one day found a way to test for it and told no one about it until the Olympics, my guess is they would DQ 95% of the entries. It would be sad, because we are only trying to help the horses be more comfortable, but ultimately we are doing it to enhance performance. Comfortable horse = improved performance.

poltroon
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:04 PM
Then she could simply have said there is an investigation pending (btw, I do handle crisis management PR frequently as part of my work; in my opinion this incident was handled very, very poorly and it is not as though it is the first time the FEI has had to deal with such a thing -- even at the Olympics).

She even said that she had spent some time on the phone talking to the FEI and others about it: in other words, she had some time to investigate. It wasn't that she was surprised by the scandal when on air.

I am a huge fan of Melanie Smith Taylor and I totally respect her and what she has accomplished. She and Calypso were my favorite pair when I was a star-struck teen. She was still wrong to say what she said.

poltroon
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:13 PM
Let me know if you think the following situation is analogous(other than a bit having no therapeutic value) , it occurred at a horse trial this past weekend.

During the dressage test, judge notices that the competitor appears to be using a slow twist snaffle (good eyes on that judge). Competitor is stopped and bit is "re-checked". Bit is in fact a slow twist which is an illegal bit in the dressage phase of a horse trial.

Competitor is eliminated. Competitor argues that the volunteer performing the bit check did not notice the illegal bit. The competitor has been using the slow twist all summer and no one noticed. Thus, she should not be eliminated. TD asks if the competitor knew the bit was illegal. Competitor says she did know. In fact her coach told her not to use the bit, but she did anyway.

In my mind, these situations are exactly the same, with the exception of the fact that the Irishman MAY have been trying to "help" his horse, which ultimately he was doing in order to improve his performance. Same as the young lady above. The fact that people have been getting by the drug tests only means that they were successfully breaking the rules, not that it was okay.

Again, I am not siding with the FEI on the no tolerance policy, but "I have been doing it for months and no one said a word" is not a valid defense. The use of ANYTHING other than food and water at an FEI event is against the rules. Topical, injected or given orally. The rider in question may have had a noble purpose, but he should have known he was breaking the rules. Our federation will tell you in no uncertain terms that topicals are just as illegal as oral or im or iv meds or supplements. They will also tell you that you probably won't get nailed for putting vetrolin in your horses wash bucket, but they won't tell you it is okay.

FWIW, I have ridden at the FEI level in eventing since 2001 and have Chef'd for three different Young Riders Teams and also groomed at many FEI events. None of this is a big secret. The kids at young riders know these things. It is sad that the Irish rider thought he had found a way around the rules and it caught up with him at the Olympics of all places, but the blame rests squarely on his shoulders.

It is not legal to administer adaquan and legend at an FEI event. It is done, but you can bet if you get caught doing it there will be a fine to pay. If the FEI one day found a way to test for it and told no one about it until the Olympics, my guess is they would DQ 95% of the entries. It would be sad, because we are only trying to help the horses be more comfortable, but ultimately we are doing it to enhance performance. Comfortable horse = improved performance.

I don't think your analogy does work. The drug rules are not as clear cut as the bit rules. There are topical products that are legal. Fly spray. Show sheen. Vaseline. Clay poultice.

I don't agree that the Irish rider thought he found a way around the rules - I think he thought he was within them. Even though he is in violation and it is necessary that he be eliminated, intent to violate the rules matters. Intent to gain a competitive advantage matters. Intent to gain a competitive advantage at the expense of your horse matters.

Why do we allow massage and magnetic blankets and ice? Would it be right for the FEI to ban massage or magnetic blankets because not all the competitors can afford them? After all, it is possible for a massage therapist to injure a horse.

I would be very upset if the FEI eliminated adequan and legend, not because they improve performance, but because they improve the health and longevity of the horse. The drug rules are meant to protect the horse from harmful substances used to gain competitive advantage. Theraputic substances that improve the horse's health and well being should never be banned.

nycjumper
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:15 PM
What is the FEI penalty for administering adequan/legend etc? Elimination or fine? I can't access the rule book here at work.

dags
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:19 PM
There are various ways we are approaching this situation- the very element you pointed out, the lack of the bit having a therapeutic purpose, is exactly why I don't see it as analogous to MY particular argument.

I'm trying, through scattered posts here and there, to speak to the comfort of the horse. Other general thoughts have popped in, such as I'm not sure it's fair to get DQd before sample B is tested, but the only argument I will really fight for is that above all the good of the horse was the intention and thus the rule needs to be revisited. The horses need to be on the same playing field as the human athletes, that they are not is what I'm arguing is unfair. The rest of it I'll go back and forth on, he rolled the dice and got caught . . . and if he was taking a conscious risk- aware it could test and eliminate him, but recognizing the benefit to the horse was so great as to be worth it, then you know what? I applaud him. Maybe now denying these horses the basic luxury of relief from the pain and muscle fatigue commonly experienced by any athlete in training and competition will be revisited.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:51 PM
There are various ways we are approaching this situation- the very element you pointed out, the lack of the bit having a therapeutic purpose, is exactly why I don't see it as analogous to MY particular argument.

I'm trying, through scattered posts here and there, to speak to the comfort of the horse. Other general thoughts have popped in, such as I'm not sure it's fair to get DQd before sample B is tested, but the only argument I will really fight for is that above all the good of the horse was the intention and thus the rule needs to be revisited. The horses need to be on the same playing field as the human athletes, that they are not is what I'm arguing is unfair. The rest of it I'll go back and forth on, he rolled the dice and got caught . . . and if he was taking a conscious risk- aware it could test and eliminate him, but recognizing the benefit to the horse was so great as to be worth it, then you know what? I applaud him. Maybe now denying these horses the basic luxury of relief from the pain and muscle fatigue commonly experienced by any athlete in training and competition will be revisited.

Your argument is one I also made somewhere. I agree there is a problem with the zero tolerance policy, and looking forward, the FEI should reconsider their rules. As I said, somewhere among the intended effect of these rules is the protection of the welfare of the horse, and that seems to be something lost with the current policies.

dags
Aug. 22, 2008, 03:08 PM
Your argument is one I also made somewhere. I agree there is a problem with the zero tolerance policy, and looking forward, the FEI should reconsider their rules. As I said, somewhere among the intended effect of these rules is the protection of the welfare of the horse, and that seems to be something lost with the current policies.

It really seems to be the only worthwhile thing to take from this whole mess, doesn't it?

bluemoonfarms
Aug. 22, 2008, 03:13 PM
JSE, I know, I know...apologies, I was not responding to your post, but that of others. And in response to McKee, I should have pointed out that no one was alleging that many people did this (and that you had revised your post).

Regarding Bluemoon's earlier question re the likelihood of lab or sample contamination given that we have 4 positives.. please note that to date we have the results from only 15 of the showjumpers (and all the dressage horses and eventers), and that of the SJ horses tested, only 1 from each medal team. So they got 4 positives from 15 horses for the exact same substance, allegedly used by riders from 4 different countries? I suppose if everyone is using that same liniment, it's possible.

But of course the FEI is its own PR nightmare - -as the Secretary General immediately declares:

"This is certainly a serious blow to our sport," . . . It is serious because in all four cases the positive result was for the same substance. I'm not sure if we can call it a trend, but it adds to the seriousness of the case."

He might consider that it is a bit odd that such a high percentage tested positive for the same substance, and at the very least might have waited for the results of he B sample and the conclusion of the investigation. And I don't think, in this circumstance, one can conclude that multiple positives means the problem is more "serious;" it may very well reflect the fact that more than one person was using a rather innocuous liniment that was generally viewed as not being a problem, and which had never resulted in a positive test in previous competitions.

Yankee Lawyer - There is definitely no conspiracy theory that will work for Lynch. Did you read Edgar's post? Here is an excerpt:

"At the tribunal the FEI indicated that this substance was an ingredient in some products in regular use. Subsequently it was identified by Denis Lynch as an ingredient in a product called "Equi-block" used by him on his horse. Equi-block is a product used in similar circumstances to 'Deep Heat' used on humans and Denis Lynch explained to the tribunal that he commonly applies Equiblock to the horse's lower back prior to exercise.


Denis Lynch holds up the tub of a Equi-Block, which contains capsaicin, during yesterday's press conference in Hong Kong. The label claims that it will NOT TEST POSITIVE and vet Marcus Swain invited journalists to rub the lotion into their own skin."

I don't understand all of the hooplah. A banned substance was used and he was disqualified. It is as simple as that. The fact that he was using the banned substance while competing prior to the Olympics makes it even worse. He got to the Olympic's while using a banned substance.

He was responsible for following the rules. The rules stand as they are for now and need to be followed. Changing the rules is a whole nother can of worms. :)

Gry2Yng
Aug. 22, 2008, 04:44 PM
I don't think your analogy does work. The drug rules are not as clear cut as the bit rules. There are topical products that are legal. Fly spray. Show sheen. Vaseline. Clay poultice.

I don't agree that the Irish rider thought he found a way around the rules - I think he thought he was within them. Even though he is in violation and it is necessary that he be eliminated, intent to violate the rules matters. Intent to gain a competitive advantage matters. Intent to gain a competitive advantage at the expense of your horse matters.

Why do we allow massage and magnetic blankets and ice? Would it be right for the FEI to ban massage or magnetic blankets because not all the competitors can afford them? After all, it is possible for a massage therapist to injure a horse.

I would be very upset if the FEI eliminated adequan and legend, not because they improve performance, but because they improve the health and longevity of the horse. The drug rules are meant to protect the horse from harmful substances used to gain competitive advantage. Theraputic substances that improve the horse's health and well being should never be banned.

The clarity of the rules is where we differ I guess. :-) You can call the USEF, read them the label on your product - fly spray, clay poultice, etc - and they will tell you if you can use it. There is no ambiguity. A topical CANNOT contain a banned ingredient any more than a slow twist can be used in dressage.

Adaquan and Legend cannot be administered during and FEI competition. That was the rule in 2001 and was still the rule as of 2006. The only incident I know of, in which someone was caught giving an injection resulted in a fine, not elimination. I do not know what the rule book states.

poltroon
Aug. 22, 2008, 06:56 PM
The clarity of the rules is where we differ I guess. :-) You can call the USEF, read them the label on your product - fly spray, clay poultice, etc - and they will tell you if you can use it.

The only thing is, I'm not sure the Irish, Norwegians, Germans, and Brazillians know they can call the USEF and get such good service. :)

I'm glad the USEF is providing this service - it's good for the sport.

I'm also glad they did pre-event testing at Hong Kong and kind of disheartened that it did not seem to do the intended job.

grayarabs
Aug. 22, 2008, 07:11 PM
I assume the B samples have yet to be tested. If they come back negative, then what?
I also don't like the idea of being DQ'd before the B samples are tested. Would be nice if they could be tested at the same time - different labs - or at least in a very timely manner.

lauriep
Aug. 22, 2008, 07:52 PM
You just found out about "what the jumpers call 'burning' and yet now you are aware that supposedly "many jumpers do it"? I really have no idea who you people hang out with, but in my many, many years on the A circuit in the jumpers and hunters I never knew anyone who did this (I am sure some nefarious creature probably did, but no one among the trainers and riders I knew did). I also was aware that some trainers poled their hores, or jumped them over a tack rail, but that was not something I would say "many" did, again, it certainly was not done by the people I trained with.


Sorry to disagree, but all of the above methods have been common and widely used for, well, forever. "Burning" legs, tack rails, offsets, "throwing" rails, etc., have been used by many, if not all, of the "heroes" spoken of here so often. Why do you think they had to resort to thermography? I can almost guarantee you that all of these Olympic horses experienced some form of tuning before they arrived in HK. With the riders fervently hoping it would last through the final rounds.

And most are done when the customers are nowhere around, as in off hours or even at night (does anyone remember the "scandal" of Ian being caught schooling in the woods at Ocala a few years ago)? So I am fairly sure you wouldn't have been aware of it in your barn. Usually grooms are the only witnesses.

lauriep
Aug. 22, 2008, 07:55 PM
I guess I just don't hang around cheaters. As for sheltered, I have owned and campaigned grand prix horses in international competition. Have you?

Do you really believe that "many" burned their horse's legs?

I am not going to argue with you guys. I just really hate the lynch mob mentality. But that should not be surprising given that we have people like Melanie Taylor-Smith saying outrageous and ill-informd things, even before the conclusion of the investigation.

How do you know she is "ill-informed," and not just "informed?"

lauriep
Aug. 22, 2008, 08:03 PM
My take on Melanie's statement wasn't that it WAS being used for that, but that it COULD be, and that is why this substance was being tested for. As in, explaining to the general public why such a supposedly benign substance would be interesting to the testers.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 08:39 PM
Sorry to disagree, but all of the above methods have been common and widely used for, well, forever. "Burning" legs, tack rails, offsets, "throwing" rails, etc., have been used by many, if not all, of the "heroes" spoken of here so often. Why do you think they had to resort to thermography? I can almost guarantee you that all of these Olympic horses experienced some form of tuning before they arrived in HK. With the riders fervently hoping it would last through the final rounds.

And most are done when the customers are nowhere around, as in off hours or even at night (does anyone remember the "scandal" of Ian being caught schooling in the woods at Ocala a few years ago)? So I am fairly sure you wouldn't have been aware of it in your barn. Usually grooms are the only witnesses.

I can't speak for *all* other barns. I assure you that I know what is going on with my horses, though, and I do seriously doubt these practices are widespread.

lauriep
Aug. 22, 2008, 08:46 PM
Doubt away. They are.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 08:52 PM
Doubt away. They are.

Well, if true, that is pathetic and reprehensible.

Have any of the other riders provided any statements, yet, or just Lynch?

CBoylen
Aug. 22, 2008, 09:09 PM
Laurie is certainly correct. Chemical hypersensation has been around just about ever since someone decided it would be fun to jump a horse over a jump. The products have just gotten more high-tech to avoid obvious detection. Used to be people would just use whatever worked as a blister. Of course, it used to be that you could legally use a bamboo in plain sight, and fewer people bothered with heating legs unless the horse was just hopelessly uncareful.
I am not saying that hypersensation is what occurred here, because I don't have valid proof of that and there are definitely other possible ways a positive test could have occurred for other reasons. But Capsaicin is a main ingredient in HEET, which was definitely the leg heating choice of the 90's, so it is certainly plausible as a tool of hypersensation.
But to say these things are not widespread is ridiculous, everyone might not do it, but everyone definitely knows someone who does.
Particularly in these days where it's not so easy to sneak off into the woods or the parking lot to school. Not that you don't hear of that still happening occasionally, too. Years ago I even walked around a corner at Devon to find someone tuning over a shavings bale in our aisleway. That's probably not all that uncommon in the grand scheme of things ;).

petitefilly
Aug. 22, 2008, 09:52 PM
I guess I just don't hang around cheaters. As for sheltered, I have owned and campaigned grand prix horses in international competition. Have you?

Do you really believe that "many" burned their horse's legs?

I am not going to argue with you guys. I just really hate the lynch mob mentality. But that should not be surprising given that we have people like Melanie Taylor-Smith saying outrageous and ill-informd things, even before the conclusion of the investigation.


The problem is MOST people who compete are not cheaters; but there are those to test the limits of controlled substances. There are some who do as much as they can to the edge. They get caught. They did get caught. Ignorance is not excuse.

Equi-block is probably gonna see some lawyers of their own very soon, I'm betting it was used by the people who were caught. Putting *will not test* on a bottle with capsaicin in it is stupid and not the truth as we plainly can see.

Heads will roll.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:07 PM
But to say these things are not widespread is ridiculous, everyone might not do it, but everyone definitely knows someone who does.
Particularly in these days where it's not so easy to sneak off into the woods or the parking lot to school. Not that you don't hear of that still happening occasionally, too. ).

And yet no one says anything? Great characters, the lot of them.

Tiramit
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:08 PM
My take is that the zero tolerance policy is a clever precursor to the FEI's new equine product launch in 2010. Who wouldn't use the FEI's own approved shampoo, liniment and packing products? I can even see the brand label: "FEI Clean" with a wild white stallion with long mane and tail running free through a jumping stadium. :lol:

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:17 PM
But to say these things are not widespread is ridiculous, everyone might not do it, but everyone definitely knows someone who does.
Particularly in these days where it's not so easy to sneak off into the woods or the parking lot to school. Not that you don't hear of that still happening occasionally, too.

That is a shame, and shame on everyone that knows it is happening, and not doing anything they can to report/stop what they see.

Glad I am a nobody, because if I knew someone soring horses, I would definitely report it. Maybe we should be doing more testing of our regular memeber H/J shows, and not just the Tennessee Walking horse classes.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:17 PM
My take is that the zero tolerance policy is a clever precursor to the FEI's new equine product launch in 2010. Who wouldn't use the FEI's own approved shampoo, liniment and packing products? I can even see the brand label: "FEI Clean" with a wild white stallion with long mane and tail running free through a jumping stadium. :lol:

LOL, too funny. Sounds like the all-natural dishwashing soap we have called, appropriately, "Naked."

bluemoonfarms
Aug. 23, 2008, 06:47 AM
Laurie is certainly correct. Chemical hypersensation has been around just about ever since someone decided it would be fun to jump a horse over a jump. The products have just gotten more high-tech to avoid obvious detection. Used to be people would just use whatever worked as a blister. Of course, it used to be that you could legally use a bamboo in plain sight, and fewer people bothered with heating legs unless the horse was just hopelessly uncareful.
I am not saying that hypersensation is what occurred here, because I don't have valid proof of that and there are definitely other possible ways a positive test could have occurred for other reasons. But Capsaicin is a main ingredient in HEET, which was definitely the leg heating choice of the 90's, so it is certainly plausible as a tool of hypersensation.
But to say these things are not widespread is ridiculous, everyone might not do it, but everyone definitely knows someone who does.
Particularly in these days where it's not so easy to sneak off into the woods or the parking lot to school. Not that you don't hear of that still happening occasionally, too. Years ago I even walked around a corner at Devon to find someone tuning over a shavings bale in our aisleway. That's probably not all that uncommon in the grand scheme of things ;).

Sad but true CBoylen. I wouldn't think that people start cheating at the Olympic level. There is a reason that all of us have to pay the $7.00 USEF Drug Fee everytime we enter a horse in a show. The really sad part is that the "average Joe" is the one funding the drug testing. I would love to know what the total fund is. :(

Spoilsport
Aug. 23, 2008, 07:18 AM
And yet no one says anything? Great characters, the lot of them.

Yankee - You surprise me. You have said you've known McLain Ward (and thus presumably other members of his family) for ages and that you have competed internationally, and yet you are blissfully unaware of things that are endemic in showjumping :eek: Reading your posts, I get this ridiculous mental image of you sitting in your hotel room reading the Bible while the other competitors are out having drinks. Unlike you, I've never ridden at the international level, but I've been at top showjumping barns in 3 countries, and I've known since I was a naive teen-ager that these things happen. And, believe me, I am one of those goody-goody types people try to hide things from. Usually my information comes from people saying things like, "I know this is going to be a shock to you, but so-and-do. . .", or from seeing things inadvertently.

Why does no one say anything? Well, people do - to each other, except apparently not to you. As to why no one complains, maybe some do, but for the most part I think there is an unwritten code of silence in showjumping (as there is, for example, in politics). . .snitches are just as loathed as cheaters. . .whether for right or wrong. What I try to do is be ethical myself and associate with other people who think like me.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 23, 2008, 09:50 AM
As to why no one complains, maybe some do, but for the most part I think there is an unwritten code of silence in showjumping (as there is, for example, in politics). . .snitches are just as loathed as cheaters. . .whether for right or wrong.

This is not some lowlife underworld, or prison we are talking about here. This is what is happening to animals we all claim to love - obviously not. If you know it is happening, and do nothing, you are just as guilty, if not more then the person doing it.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 23, 2008, 10:05 AM
Yankee - You surprise me. You have said you've known McLain Ward (and thus presumably other members of his family) for ages and that you have competed internationally, and yet you are blissfully unaware of things that are endemic in showjumping :eek: Reading your posts, I get this ridiculous mental image of you sitting in your hotel room reading the Bible while the other competitors are out having drinks. Unlike you, I've never ridden at the international level, but I've been at top showjumping barns in 3 countries, and I've known since I was a naive teen-ager that these things happen. And, believe me, I am one of those goody-goody types people try to hide things from. Usually my information comes from people saying things like, "I know this is going to be a shock to you, but so-and-do. . .", or from seeing things inadvertently.

Why does no one say anything? Well, people do - to each other, except apparently not to you. As to why no one complains, maybe some do, but for the most part I think there is an unwritten code of silence in showjumping (as there is, for example, in politics). . .snitches are just as loathed as cheaters. . .whether for right or wrong. What I try to do is be ethical myself and associate with other people who think like me.

I think our disagreement is over the term "widespread." There is a difference between having a few bad apples, and widespread, which denotes commonly done, practiced by many, prevalent. Saying that "everyone knows someone" who does it also in itself does not mean many people do it -- does everyone know of the same notorious 3, or whatever? I NEVER said that no one cheats; I said I didn't personally know of anyone using capsaicin as a blistering agent to enhance jumping, but even then said that there were probably some nefarious types out there who did. As for the other methods, I am aware that *some* people cheat; I disagree that many or most people do. I also associate with people who think like me, which may be part of the reason that I do not have the impression that these practices are "widespread."

And I do have a major problem with the "code of silence" attitude, particularly as it pertains to horses, who rely on PEOPLE to look out for their interests. But, I also attended schools that had honor codes (oh, yeah, my parents actually made me go to school while other juniors were tutored on the circuit), and so I was raised to believe that knowing about cheating and doing nothing about it is as bad as cheating itself. Frankly, I don't see why I am getting attacked on these boards. Save your energy for the people who are out there apparently engaging in widespread cheating and horse abuse, and do something about THAT.

p.s. It happens that I don't own a Bible, but bravo for probably offending a good number of people who, like me, think there is nothing wrong with actually being religious. Based on the allegations here, I think it would serve some people well to read a book of any kind once in a while, and they might start with the FEI rule book.

twofatponies
Aug. 23, 2008, 10:37 AM
As a mere pleasure rider and spectator - not involved in trying to make any money winning competitions - I find this whole banned substances thing so complicated and to some extent ridiculous. I need Ben-Gay, Advil and Coffee just to get through a normal day! Sometimes I need cold medicine or sleeping aids. The harder I try to figure out what the line is between therapeutic treatment of a competition horse and "cheating", the more my brain ties itself in a knot. It seems like every "therapeutic" or "training" technique can be overdone to create a "cheat", so everything gets banned to punish the cheaters, making the whole system revolve around the bad guys. Sort of like the terrorists "winning" by making us all over-afraid of everything. *Sigh* What a strange world. Perhaps the only solution is to ban competitions. Then there would be no incentive to cheat.

dags
Aug. 23, 2008, 10:41 AM
what a sad, sad thing.

lauriep and cboylen, you guys are a fair representation of the circuit. we all know what can go on there, we all know which players DO rely on this crap, and which ones DON'T. To hear you speak of it so nonchalantly, so matter-of-fact and accepting of it, is very disappointing.

Here I am, arguing for the innocent use of a product because I am personally aware of how beneficial it is. Blaming sensationalist accusations and the ever present bad apples for the inane rules that withhold basic pain relief from these horses, while you casually wander in and verify the already spoonfed opinion that it is just 'the way things are done'.

I'm sorry. I am sure you will return to tell me you do not condone it, that this is not what you are insinuating . . . I kind of hope you do. But the impression just left here, from two users many look up to because they are aware of your accomplishments, aware that you are actually in the trenches while they are lucky to get ringside, is that it is as commonplace as the sensationalists claim. So be it, but you people on the inside are the ones that need to step up and put an end to it . . . or at the very least, make it clear that there are also people who have no part in this.

:(

Ghazzu
Aug. 23, 2008, 10:48 AM
lauriep and cboylen, you guys are a fair representation of the circuit. we all know what can go on there, we all know which players DO rely on this crap, and which ones DON'T.

I don't get the impression that "we all know" from reading this thread--on the contrary, it appears that a number of people are surprised about such things.
And, if you are right, and "we all know", then why single out 2 posters and excoriate them for inaction?

*DS*
Aug. 23, 2008, 10:52 AM
Unfortunately things like this happen all the time. whether it be drugging a horse, poling, or having tacks on your noseband. you can not truly stop this all togther, it has always happened and most probably always will happen to some degree. This is why many people are so acceptant of what happened. we are disappointed in the athletes of course, but it is really nothing out of the ordinary.

dags
Aug. 23, 2008, 11:06 AM
I don't get the impression that "we all know" from reading this thread--on the contrary, it appears that a number of people are surprised about such things.
And, if you are right, and "we all know", then why single out 2 posters and excoriate them for inaction?

Because most of us involved in the circuit do know it goes on. There's a gap on this board between those that spend their lives at the showgrounds and those that do not. Those that do not rely on information they receive, often posted here. My point was that while these two confirm for the uninvolved that yes, there is shadiness- a fair bit of it, there are also others that are competing at the top of this sport cleanly.

I isolated these two posters because I am aware they speak rather knowledgebly about the circuit, as are many others.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 23, 2008, 11:45 AM
I don't get the impression that "we all know" from reading this thread--on the contrary, it appears that a number of people are surprised about such things.
And, if you are right, and "we all know", then why single out 2 posters and excoriate them for inaction?


I agree, and I certainly did not mean to single out anybody (plus, for all I know, the posts were made based on rumors they have heard, and generally, I don't believe people should act without having a sufficient basis for an allegation, mere rumor not being one). But, I *do* stand by my statements that inaction when confronted with an instance of cheating is as bad as cheating, and to the extent this problem *is* systemic, it is going to take a lot more than one or two so-called "narcs" to fix.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 23, 2008, 11:52 AM
As a mere pleasure rider and spectator - not involved in trying to make any money winning competitions - I find this whole banned substances thing so complicated and to some extent ridiculous. I need Ben-Gay, Advil and Coffee just to get through a normal day! Sometimes I need cold medicine or sleeping aids. The harder I try to figure out what the line is between therapeutic treatment of a competition horse and "cheating", the more my brain ties itself in a knot. It seems like every "therapeutic" or "training" technique can be overdone to create a "cheat", so everything gets banned to punish the cheaters, making the whole system revolve around the bad guys. Sort of like the terrorists "winning" by making us all over-afraid of everything. *Sigh* What a strange world. Perhaps the only solution is to ban competitions. Then there would be no incentive to cheat.


This is why the FEI attempts to have clear prohibitions on certain substances. A substance is either banned or it is not; they don't want to get into the grey areas of the whys or the how muches.

Ghazzu
Aug. 23, 2008, 01:24 PM
Because most of us involved in the circuit do know it goes on. There's a gap on this board between those that spend their lives at the showgrounds and those that do not. Those that do not rely on information they receive, often posted here. My point was that while these two confirm for the uninvolved that yes, there is shadiness- a fair bit of it, there are also others that are competing at the top of this sport cleanly.

I isolated these two posters because I am aware they speak rather knowledgebly about the circuit, as are many others.

So what?
How does that make them any more responsible than any of " most of us involved in the circuit"?

You apparently "know".
Have you turned anyone in?
Or is your activity restricted to wagging your finger at others who "know"?

dags
Aug. 23, 2008, 01:33 PM
So what?
How does that make them any more responsible than any of " most of us involved in the circuit"?

You apparently "know".
Have you turned anyone in?
Or is your activity restricted to wagging your finger at others who "know"?

Wow. Okay.

I'm not sure what you think I'm trying to do to these people, who I'm sure will come on here and tell me if I've greatly insulted them. Puzzling.

My point is that maybe they could ALSO present that clean competition does exist at the upper levels, so that those who are not so familiar with the circuit don't walk away with the idea that it's all dirty. Everywhere. Everyone. There's no hope. Showjumpers are evvvilllll horse abusers noo better than the TWH crowd.

I'm not at a horse show, I'm on a computer. I'm talking about what is going on HERE, in this little computer world. Not about running to stewards. I'm talking about how to constructively build an arguement that would at least give consideration to basic pain relief for these horses. Did you read anything else I wrote, or just jump on one post?

grayarabpony
Aug. 23, 2008, 02:14 PM
I'm confused -- how can applying capsaicin make a horse hypersensitive? If the horse feels anything all he will feel is burning -- will that really make him jump better?

Sorry -- haven't read whole thread -- how do most of you think the capsaicin got in the horse's systems? Linament use or cheating? Do you think the tests are too sensitive?

LLDM
Aug. 23, 2008, 03:43 PM
Well, I wasn't going to say it, but hey, why not?

I have been back and forth on the zero tolerance policy a couple times. There's the give the poor hard working horsey an aspirin argument - and then there is the give 'em any wiggle room what-so-ever and they will be stacking 150 tiny bits of everything and the kitchen sink argument. The USEF might be happy to turn a blind eye - but part of me is darn glad the FEI won't. Yet.

Here's a thought. You want the BEST for these horses? You really really really want what is the absolute best for them? Then reduce SUBSTANTIALLY the amount of time they can spend in competitions. Period.

They need all this crap because we pound the crap out of them. Limit every horse on the planet to competitions once a month - there's a thought. Hey, give 'em the winter off!

Yep, some people would still pound the crap out of their horses. But you wouldn't have to pound the crap out of yours to beat them.

JMHO.

SCFarm

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 23, 2008, 03:50 PM
One of the reasons that so many substances are not allowed at all is that they can cover up other more seriously abused substances.


They need all this crap because we pound the crap out of them. Limit every horse on the planet to competitions once a month - there's a thought. Hey, give 'em the winter off!

Also, find horses that don't need hours of lungeing to make them quiet enough for amateurs.

Haalter
Aug. 23, 2008, 05:07 PM
A QUESTION:

Perhaps I missed it, but does anyone know if any of the horses who participated in the voluntary drug testing at the beginning of the games tested positive for anything? And if so, how was it handled?

jse
Aug. 23, 2008, 05:14 PM
I'm confused -- how can applying capsaicin make a horse hypersensitive? If the horse feels anything all he will feel is burning -- will that really make him jump better?

Sorry -- haven't read whole thread -- how do most of you think the capsaicin got in the horse's systems? Linament use or cheating? Do you think the tests are too sensitive?

If you clip their legs to the skin with a 10 blade and then rub the skin with a stiff brush almost raw and then apply something like capsaicin followed by really cold water you can bet their gonna be seriously irritated when someone goes to put boots on and they're gonna pick up their feet for sure. Whether it really works with making them jump better? That's something for sure to doubt.