How can I feel more secure going down hills?

[FridaysGirl]

I'm a re-rider who has been trail riding for 3 months on an OTTB I aquired 9 months ago. I have access to a wonderful, large, and hilly park to ride in. A problem I have is feeling insecure down streeper hills. I think there may be several factors involved. 1. I'm a lot heavier than when I rode before. 2. My gelding is very large, 16.3 ,with a long neck. I feel like this is somehow contributing to my feeling so insecure? 3. I think I may have learned (way back in the 1960's) to sit too far forward down hills. I'm trying to put my feel out in front and lean back.

I'd love any feedback or thoughts. In addition to sitting back further I wonder about trying a Bates Innova dressage saddle as they have very big thigh blocks which seem like they might give my security downhill (and just in general.) Anyone trailridden in one, and does it add security?

Thanks in advance for any help or ideas.

Carrie

[katarine]

This past weekend we rode down 'the slide' at a friend's place...it's about
200' of steep, narrow (less than 4' wide, no room for error), nearly straight trail with good sandy footing with some rocks and roots but it's STEEP. Reallllly steep ...Using my wintec a/p and wearing britches with knee thingies (not full seats is what I mean)...I was fine. Here's why.

My horse is not clumsy. He's careful about his feet, guides really well on a feather touch... and doesn't rush. Does yours?

I didn't put ANY weight in my stirrups other than the weight of my lower legs/feet...why? I want my butt/inner thighs/upper leg to weld me to the pony with slight/strong tension as needed, not my feet run out to his shoulders and stiff...if I did that, and he stumbled, I'd risk tumbling off b/c my feet weren't in a spot to just wrap 'round him and hold to....and I'm not really leaning back...some, but not hugely...I soften and roach my back a little, so I absorb his motion as much as possible...

I can always grab the cantle and snug my butt deeper in it if need be.

Sure, SOMETHING by the way of thigh blocks or in western saddles, swells, would have been nice. But lacking that, I was still ok.

[FridaysGirl]

Katarine-

Thanks so much for your response. When you say "I (don't want) my feet run out to his shoulders and stiff..." that describes me. And I do feel like "(if) he stumbled I'd risk tumbling off..." exactly how I've been feeling. Also, it never ocurred to me to grab the cantle. I can hardly wait to go out and try your suggestions. Thanks, I believe you may have saved me an awful fall.

In response to your question about how my gelding handles down hill, I'd say he is careful, but when coming home he can speed up which truly makes me crazy down hill. I'm working now to get him not rushing home. (I may start a thread on ideas about how to do that.)

[pines4equines]

Hi Friday:

One thing that might help is an old horse trainer told me once that your body should be parallel to the trees and their angle as you go down the hill.

Also, check out my thread "Saddle Fit Was Tuesday! Picture!" I am an old dressage rider who really only trail rides now. I would trail ride in my English Saddle or bareback.

I'm in my late 40s and I recently broke my ankle and was very, very nervous to get back on, especially bare back or in my English saddle. I bought this Cordora Endurance Saddle, mainly as a saddle to get me back in the saddle and use in the interim to get some confidence back. Man, oh crikeys, do I stick like an SOB in that thing. I feel like my horse can do airs above the ground and I'll stick there...

Maybe you need more saddle under you?

[FridaysGirl]

Hi Pines,

Thanks so much for your suggestions!

[Huntertwo]

Back in the olden days we were always taught to lean back. Not so....
It just hinders the lifting of his back end to get his back legs under him.

My only advice is to sit up straight, give him his head, unless he rushes down the hill.

[AnotherRound]

When I was doing alot of trail riding and endurance riding, I was perplexed at my QH and how he was so strung out going down hills. I imagined he SHOULD be going down like QHes in the movies, with their butt tucked under them, even sliding when necessary. Because his back was hollow, his butt was trailing, and it felt like I was riding two glued together horses.

I began to gather him up, sit him back, and make him tuck his back end under. We went a bit slower. I picked up his head a bit, though he was still dropping it for proper balance, but really moved his butt with my butt and legs to tuck him in.

He had to develop the muscles to do this, but began to have much more strength and control down hill. I sat him better, and didn't feel like my legs were going to slide over his shoulders anymore.

That's the best I got for you. Hope it helps.

[joyful]

The tree suggestion is great - even if you don't have trees to look at it gives you a great image to put in your head. The big thing is to follow the horses center of gravity - you don't want to throw him off balance. Try small hills and feel how your balance is kept by leaning back. Always make sure that you only do what you are comfortable with until yu build up your confidence. Good Luck!

[Guilherme]

Sounds to me like you've got a basic seat issue. Do you take regular instruction? If so, how does your instructor teach you to sit? If your seat is deep and balanced (a la Ft. Riley or Sally Swift) then you likely just need some practice to get confident. But if you're not in a secure, deep, balanced seat then you are, in fact, unstable and right to feel ill at ease.

Review your seat with your instructor. Get and read "Centered Riding." Or order the Cavalry texts and training tapes from the U.S. Cavalry Association.

Good luck in your program.

G.

[wateryglen]

A coupla things.....some saddles tilt your pelvis way forward = deep seated saddles like dressage. It's hard to rotate your hips back against the cantle when your butt is....ahem!....larger!! :winkgrin: If you find your lower body is pulling you forward unless you hyper arch your back? May be the seat is too small or too deep. I find medium to more open seated english saddles worked better for me (with a bad back so arching hurts) like close contact saddles. Yes, any saddle with a lotta knee roll and even thigh rolls will stabilize your lower leg and helps immensely! :yes: I know western saddles also have varied levels of deepness so ditto for them.

A big horse with a long neck should make you feel MORE secure going downhill especially if they have a big shoulder or higher wither/head carriage. Imagine doing it on a horse built downhill with a low head carriage?!! :eek: Also make sure that your saddle IS sitting level.

But leaning back should occur with your body straightish ie: not just rotating off your knees. Legs out in front or braced up against the knee roll with hips & upper slightly back from center. Sit light so you aren't pushing down on his hind end. Kinda Half Point! You still want him to be able to use it.

And my biggest suggestion is to make the hill more user friendly ie: try snaking down it or doing switchbacks to accomodate what you both are comfy with. It's a matter of conditioning for your horse too. Steeper are harder on his hocks so he needs to be built up too. Fitter horses handle hills better IMHO. Even if this means going off the trail to accomplish this. Dont' give up; keep doing them. There's all kinds of benefits.

And the fear? Yup, we all have it! It's time, mileage, confidence, fitness and repetition. It WILL get better! don't be discouraged. It's a healthy, self preserving fear - it protects you; respect it and learn to accomodate it! It's not bad! It just IS!!! There's no one but yourself putting pressure on you to perform it well, at speed or whatever. Tell yourself it'll be OK, take a deep breath and just do it. Under control!!! :D

[FridaysGirl]

Wow, what a wealth of wonderful ideas and support from this generous group of people.
I've decided, based on what has been suggested, to hire a trainer who is available by the hour to come out with me on the trails and probably to go on my guy down hills as well. It never ocurred to me (duh!) that his ability to move and carry himself in certain ways would impact in a major way on my sense of security. He is 18 years old, raced 10 years--yikes!--and was really just out in a field between racing and my getting him, so how well is he able to get his hocks under him, etc.

I also, found it helpful to think about the contribution of the saddle -- Amerigo deep seat to all this. I find the saddle wonderfully comfortable and secure and it fits my high withered TB beautifully but it certainly could make it hard to move my weight back in the saddle, perhaps the trainer can give my her take on this.

I was taking lessons the first 8 months I've had Friday (my gelding). I realize I've actually had him almost a year now, not 9 months. I think I have a good seat, except my "new and improved downhill seat" which I now know is entirely wrong. I was listening to my Western trail buddy and experimenting with the sit back, prop feet out in front, and thus was inadvertently making my insecurity worse.

I also very much like to idea of taking it at my own pace. I'm not always good about that.

Thanks again so much everyone.

[goeslikestink]

dont look down- look between the horses ears and ahead of you

[wendy]

take a lesson from an eventer. They GALLOP down steep hills. You don't want to lean back and stick your feet out forwards- you want to be in a light balanced seat, in balance with the horse's center of gravity.

[KlawPaws]

When I got my TB mare I also had some problems going down hill. She would actually plant her feet a little and start to rear (that's too strong a word...she would hop a little on the front end). The first thing I figured out was that my saddle didn't fit correctly. Going down hills it would slip onto her shoulders a bit and this obviously caused her some pain. After I got my new saddle I actually took a lesson with my instructor on a larger hill on a nearby trail. She taught me how to "sit" going down hills. My butt is firmly in the saddle and then she said one thing to me that helped me immensly: "Your butt should feel like a sack of potatoes". Sounds funny but what she meant was there should be weight in your seat but you should also move with the horse at the same time. Upper body should also be loose...don't get stiff. After she said that I was almost instantly able to go down steep hills with no problem. I was also able to stop my horse at any step along the entire way down the hill. It is wonderful now. Of course I also think my horse knows she has to take care of me sometimes :)

Disclaimer: I don't think the "sack of potatoes" thing will work with every horse. It may also depend on how the horse was originally trained and how they react to cues from your seat (atleast that is what I was told by people who are trained more in dreasage).

[Simbalism]

When I first started trail riding my TB mare, I would be really nervous on steeper hills. I did buy myself an endurance style saddle and that has helped alot with more secure feeling. Because I was nervous, I was looking straight down which was making my body stiffen up and put me out of balance. Now when I have to go down a steep hill, I make myself take a deep breath which helps loosen up the stiff body and look out over my horses head. This helps me stay in a more balanced position. It did seem like it took my mare a little while to get better at going down the steeper hills. Now she seems able to negotiate them easier(experience and fitness). Good luck.

[cnigh]

I feel that I have just gotten over my fear of hills. For myself I try NOT to go straight down a steep hill if possible. If there is room I will do a zigzag pattern all the way down.

But I do have a different horse under me now. My mare is very careful and never trips. Being able to trust her to get us down safely is a pleasure. As an above poster said, she gets her bum under her and lifts her head to balance herself.

[wateryglen]

OH I second that head/eyes suggestion, I forgot!! Yup! Keep your eyes up and head level. NO looking down. Many riding teachers tell you that if you have your eyes up; you naturally keep your balance back some or level - not with the hill but with the lands natural flat level. Keeping the same angle as the trees is a good visual prompt maybe. Looking down can throw your horse on his forehand; not a desired thing here right?!!!
Sit up, eyes up, head up, shoulders back, rock back a bit your seat but don't sit down hard on him. HE"S the one that needs to see where he's going. If you are compelled, just glance down with your eyes, not moving your head. We foxhunters practice this like a religion! :winkgrin:

And many Tb's that've raced or jumped might have weak or stiff hocks. This may not be noticed when riding on the flat. But they will kind of "pogo stick" their hind ends going straight down a hill. Not bend hocks and really hop on thier hind end. THAT's VERY hard to sit!!! And if he's not ridden on hills regularly; he may just be outa shape and need conditioning. He'll be smoother when he's fitter.

Your insecurity is normal, understandable and just needs time & experience for both of you to improve. Remember, you have to train for trailriding too!! :D:yes:

[SlobberHound]

I feel horses don't want to fall any more than you do. My one arab is so clumsy, but going down hill, he never falters. We go down a lot of steep hills,and all of my horses in the 7 plus years of riding have never fallen. If it's too steep, they'll practically sit down in the back and scoot down. I actually was riding with a really timid rider once going down a fairly large hill. She got off her horse and decided to walk down on her own and I ponied her horse down. He did great! She on the other hand, slipped and tumbled halfway down the hill:lol: She was fine, and said next time she's going to ride down.
I lean slightly back when going down hills, but not too far back to throw the horse off balance.
Maria

[JenLS]

If we're going down a really steep hill I'll grab the back of the saddle with my free hand. Not sure how steep the hills are you're talking about.

[ReSomething]

I've been doing a lot of renta-horse trail riding lately, mostly using whatever Western saddle they come with. I'm going to say that the saddle is not the be all and end all regarding how secure you feel going downhill. Some horses are just clods. They go down on their forehands with their hind ends straggling along behind them, tripping as they go, "pogo sticking" (I like that) and weaving about. When they get close to the bottom of the slope they lose it altogether and have to trot a few. Every once in a while I'll get one that can balance or self carry. One of them the wrangler said "oh you might not like him he takes really short steps". Well, he walked out just fine when I used my seat, and going downhill he collected himself, got his butt under him and minced down that hill pretty as you please. No tripping, no having to stop, we walked all the way to the bottom of the slope and then lengthened the stride on the flat, all on a loose rein.
I think you've got a good idea going by taking a second set of eyes with you. Your OTTB may need some work to get more supple, your seat could maybe use some work (that weight gain thing really changes your balance). Your horse's conformation may just be creepy for downhill. One thing I try to do is not sit so darn much. I want my weight draped and running into my heels and I will even "step" a little in time with the hind legs and try to encourage some impulsion and collection, some balance.
When you get into the really steep stuff the last thing you want is for them to be falling all over behind, just too much potential for injury, skinned up hocks and such.
A good trail horse is an athlete too.

[questisthebest]

If you are only walking downhill it helps if you are not hollowing out your back. Try to tuck in at your belly button and sit deeper in your seat and lean slightly back. Try to keep your legs at the girth line.

[matryoshka]

I reread this thread, wondering how it is going for you and the hill work.

Also, a couple of ideas occurred to me.

Training: Most of the people here mentioning having to work at going down hill also mentioned riding OTTB's. I think they are worked so much on the flat that they are never really trained how to negotiate difficult terrain carrying a rider. When I first took my OTTB on steep hills, he'd get mad. We'd worked smaller hills and got by okay, but I neglected to teach him how to carry himself down hills properly. So the steeper hills were a challenge and I had not helped him at all. When he got mad or excited, he'd buck. You can imagine how stressed I then felt with a horse showing signs of wanting to buck while negotiating a steep downhill. It wasn't his fault that nobody had taught him how to carry himself down a hill. (BTW, he was also fond of bucking while going up steep hills. I'm mystified as to how he could manage to throw me forward in the saddle while going UP steep hills!)

It's in my mind because I had eventually had to rehome the horse over the bucking. I couldn't get to the bottom of the issue, and I'm too old to deal with it out on the trail where bucking sprees can be dangerous. I subsequently leased a very experienced Arabian. He knows how to go down hills safely. I won't say it is comfortable, becuase he really rounds his back and takes short, firm steps. But it feels much safer. He doesn't want to fall any more than I do!

So, if you are still having concerns, it would be a good idea to teach your horse how to negotiate small hills first. Help him to round himself, and once he tries it, he may do it automatically so he can feel more secure.

Core Strength: Also, as for general security in the saddle out on trails (and in the arena). You say you are a re-rider and have gained some weight in the interim. I'm guessing you have lost some core strength. Stomach exercises to build back the core strength will really help you get that feeling of security back. We make so many minute adjustments to balance while we ride, and it all requires core strength--healthy stomach muscles. If you had kids since you'd last been a rider, I'd doubly suspect that your core strength has diminished over time. Some people do yoga, others do pilates. I've always been a fan of crunches.

[TBPNW]

I ride OTTBs and young TB's, some as tall as you describe, usually in a dressage saddle, occasionally an a/p. I do have large knee rolls (Wintecs, so can change them out) for trail riding. Our terrain is usually hilly if not mountainous. I know it's supposed to be better not to automatically lean back, but in reality I probably do lean back and keep legs farther forward more than is recommended. Especially with steep hills and loose footing, it has helped them keep working further back toward their hindquarters and slower and calmer if they start sliding. It's "old-fashioned" though, and I do realize it's supposed to be easier for them if you don't change position as much.