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freestyle2music
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:19 AM
For your information Anky had the lowest score for her Halt of all 15 riders.

But she had so much high scores (10-9-8) specialy in the movements which had a coefficient of 2 and 4, that she could simple handle these scores. Or even better maybee she deliberatly toke this low score for the Halt knowing that Salinero wouldn't be annoyed.

On YouTube I see so many rides where only the Halt scores a 9 and the rest 4's and 3's.

Think of that.

Theo

Beverley
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:28 AM
Some of us amatoor horsemen think the halt is a pretty basic and pretty essential thing to teach horses, no matter their discipline. So, some of us, following that line of logic, think that horses trained to the hilt and competing at the highest levels ought to be better at halting than our mere plugs.:)

LisaB
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:32 AM
Salinero is a spitfire that a lot of us amateurs couldn't possibly ride. I humbly bow down to Anky and her ability. That is some horse. So her decision to blow the halt in order to keep him happy for the other movements was probably heavily discussed and it was decided to blow those 2 scores.
Does it prove that the horse isn't harmonious and listen to its rider? Yeah, probably. But dressage seems to be going the way of artsy-fartsy rather than harmonious communication between horse and rider. Like when ice skating removed the compulsaries. It has now morphed itself into a show of stage presence.

monstrpony
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:51 AM
I had a mare that I evented and did dressage shows with, with some degree of success, and I can safely state that she was much less horse than Salinero. However, one year at the local recognized show, after the horse had retired from eventing and was in her late teens, something happened just as I was starting a test, and had halted at X and saluted. Next thing I knew, I was galloping back toward A. I managed to stop and resume the test before being eliminated, though the test was pretty ugly (got smiley faces and comments about my passage and canter half pass; alas, it was a second level test ...).

Although the horse went back to doing respectable tests in every other way, I was *never* able to sustain a halt at X with that horse again, and it was not a situation that I was able to duplicate in practice at home.

There was a lot of speculation from people who had seen the episode about what exactly it was that happened with my horse, but we never nailed down whether it was the poorly placed overhead flags in the arena, the kids playing soccer on the upper level of the grandstands, or something about the late afternoon sunlight. Whatever. And this was a mare famous for being a baby-sitter for young horses on their first outings, for being a rock-solid adult-amature horse, for being sensible and kind and easy.

Horses are horses. If Anky can do well enough on the rest of the test to fluff the final halt, more power to her. But I can understand her decision not to prolong the agony for her horse at the end of her freestyle. If you squint just the right way when you watch, you can imagine that she's just saluting with both hands ... even though the halt is not maintained ;).

grayarabpony
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:54 AM
The lack of a halt wasn't the only thing I had issue with. Salinero always looks tense and never quite "through".

KWPN MOM
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:08 AM
Theo,
Why did Anky not tip her head (faux halt) to at least acknowledge the judges, before exiting the arena?
I truly believe that she made no effort to give a final halt & salute.
And what were her marks....5.0,7.0,6.0, 6.0 and 7.0
She did not deserve more than a 5.0 FROM ALL of the judges. The mark is averaged. Give her a 10.0 for the entrance halt and she should have gotten a 0.0 for the final halt as it was not preformed. That would be a 5.0 average score.The only judge who marked her correctly was the Danish judge. He gave her 5.0.

A halt is a halt, no way to get around it unless you believe that because this is an FEI test, they don't have to do it....it's an optional movement for FEI riders.


I am very PROUD to say, that my halts were the only mark I could pretty much expect an 8+ . I worked very hard to be straight and immobile. everything else in between was pretty much crap, but at least I began and ended my test on a good note. So please (asb) don't make light of the importance of the halt movement.

Dank u wel

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:14 AM
Plus, a good halt is necessary to be able to sip from one's flask without spilling. :D


Some of us amatoor horsemen think the halt is a pretty basic and pretty essential thing to teach horses, no matter their discipline. So, some of us, following that line of logic, think that horses trained to the hilt and competing at the highest levels ought to be better at halting than our mere plugs.:)

freestyle2music
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:18 AM
Theo,
Why did Anky not tip her head (faux halt) to at least acknowledge the judges, before exiting the arena?
I truly believe that she made no effort to give a final halt & salute.
And what were her marks....5.0,7.0,6.0, 6.0 and 7.0
She did not deserve more than a 5.0 FROM ALL of the judges. The mark is averaged. Give her a 10.0 for the entrance halt and she should have gotten a 0.0 for the final halt as it was not preformed. That would be a 5.0 average score.The only judge who marked her correctly was the Danish judge. He gave her 5.0.

A halt is a halt, no way to get around it unless you believe that because this is an FEI test, they don't have to do it....it's an optional movement for FEI riders.


I am very PROUD to say, that my halts were the only mark I could pretty much expect an 8+ . I worked very hard to be straight and immobile. everything else in between was pretty much crap, but at least I began and ended my test on a good note. So please (asb) don't make light of the importance of the halt movement.

Dank u wel

Anky is a woman !

and she paid respect to the judges to invite them for a champagne party afterwards !

KWPN MOM
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:19 AM
Plus, a good halt is necessary to be able to sip from one's flask without spilling. :D

That's too funny........
Damn, I knew that I forgot something!!!! I left the flask at home.

flshgordon
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:27 AM
Anky is a woman !

and she paid respect to the judges to invite them for a champagne party afterwards !

---WTF? You think women aren't supposed to tip their heads to the judge? :confused:

Yeah that last part probably explains why no one ever scores her as low as she SHOULD be scored. I'm sorry but just being able to stay on a horse that is a ticking time bomb is not good dressage. Some of his movements are beautiful, but the rest...:no:

If I were to just not halt in a test, I bet I would get a 1 or 2 so how on EARTH can you say she deserved 5, 6 or 7?????? Just because that's the lowest score received doesn't mean squat

dressagetraks
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:35 AM
Right on, KWPN Mom. While the (non) halts bug me, I can see how the lower score that movement was compensated by many other higher marks. I do understand that. What bugs me a lot more is the total lack of any semblance of a salute at the end of the freestyle. And yes, to me, that absolutely equates to lack of respect to the judges. The one move that occurs beginning and end of each test, weenie levels up, you would not just "lose in the moment." Besides, she doesn't say she got lost in the moment. She says, her own words, that she decided "oh, he doesn't really have to do this," because she knew she'd already won. That comment, plus no effort at all to salute the judges and just to start waving to the crowd instead, I interpret as blatant arrogance.

The man who retired gave a very nice salute to the judges as he excused himself (no, he didn't halt, and no, I wouldn't have just then on his horse, either. :D But he did acknowledge the judges). As much a fire-breathing dragon as Salinero is (I sure wouldn't want to ride him), I don't think he was as tense, explosive, etc., as that rearing Andalusian was. And that rider managed to salute.

BoysNightOut
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:59 AM
"But she had so much high scores (10-9-8) specialy in the movements which had a coefficient of 2 and 4, that she could simple handle these scores. Or even better maybee she deliberatly toke this low score for the Halt knowing that Salinero wouldn't be annoyed. "

I'm sorry...I don't generally post on Dressage....but if your horse can't handle halting correctly without having issues, that's pathetic and should not be winning gold medals. I don't care how fantastic other movements are. A halt is one of the most basic commands, and if your horse can't even manage that, then well...it's sad what wins in Dressage today.

KSevnter
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:59 AM
My issue is the fact that the halt is a very basic and important training element and dressage at its core is training of the horse. From my vantage point, it is an example of holes in ones training. If moving up the levels in dressage is essentially a pyramid, then the base must be solid, right?

I'll admit that I really only follow international dressage every 4 years, but when I watched Anky's test last night I saw a horse that did not maintain his poll as the highest point and who was behind the vertical fairly often. I also felt there were portions of the test where she appeared braced against him as if she were riding the front of the horse to the back, rather than the other way around.

Even if it is a training method (blow one movement, be brilliant the rest) is that really the direction dressage should be going? I always thought that basic correctness was the purpose of the entire sport and by obtaining a level of perfection in that correctness, comes brilliance.

I watched little Headley Britannia be rewarded for precisely that in the dressage. The horse is not the most spectacular of movers, but she was through, light and up and test absolutely precise.

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:12 PM
Even the most beautifully trained and obedient horse can be nervous. So the horse didn't halt.

Heck - if my horse had been in that arena he'd have peed himself, bolted, and then dropped dead from a heart attack. Wonder how the judges would have scored that movement? :cool:

Bleh. I don't even like Anky's style, and I think this horse needs Prozac and a different job. But the beating up on these folks is a little over the top.

La Gringa
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:23 PM
Plus, a good halt is necessary to be able to sip from one's flask without spilling. :D

Well said! :yes::yes::yes:

rabicon
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:25 PM
Well as the commentators said NONE OF HER HORSES HALT :eek: Give me a break, why not??? You can't just say its for this one horse if none of her other horses ever really halt. I like Anky but I think the not halting is BS and should have been marked down way way more, and at the end of the freestyle she didn't not salute or anything to the judges at all!! She immediatley patted the horse and woo hooed her self to the crowd and the commentators also said something about her not saluting? Thats just rude IMO. She should have been much lower on her halt scores but reputation has a lot to do with scores in a subjective sport and theres nothing you can do about that.

freestyle2music
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:29 PM
My issue is the fact that the halt is a very basic and important training element and dressage at its core is training of the horse. From my vantage point, it is an example of holes in ones training. If moving up the levels in dressage is essentially a pyramid, then the base must be solid, right?

I'll admit that I really only follow international dressage every 4 years, but when I watched Anky's test last night I saw a horse that did not maintain his poll as the highest point and who was behind the vertical fairly often. I also felt there were portions of the test where she appeared braced against him as if she were riding the front of the horse to the back, rather than the other way around.

Even if it is a training method (blow one movement, be brilliant the rest) is that really the direction dressage should be going? I always thought that basic correctness was the purpose of the entire sport and by obtaining a level of perfection in that correctness, comes brilliance.

I watched little Headley Britannia be rewarded for precisely that in the dressage. The horse is not the most spectacular of movers, but she was through, light and up and test absolutely precise.

3 times Olympic Gold in a row, doesn't that say something about correctness ?. Correctness these days is showing what the judges want to see. So burn your old books and start reading some more up to date ones.

BLBGP
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:47 PM
So someone else posted that not saluting the judges at the beginning and end = elimination. Did they make that up?

War Admiral
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:53 PM
So someone else posted that not saluting the judges at the beginning and end = elimination. Did they make that up?

Nope. It's an FEI rule. Or should we put quotes around that pesky little word "rule"??

Stubborn Mare
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:01 PM
You say there is too much politics in dressage judging, but look at yourselves - it seems some horse people have become so partisan in the wake of the AVG/Rollkur debate, they can't recognise quality movements when they see them, or else they choose to ignore them in favour of harping on 10 seconds of a 6 minute ride. This is debilitating to the future of dressage. Go on, critique certain movements of tests (so let's talk about Steffen's mistakes in the tempi changes, etc)... but stop ignoring the excellent moments that you could learn from. :no:

Halting, Saluting and bowing out.....

let the judgements commence.

rabicon
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:09 PM
Stubbern Mare: I like Anky and I think her horses are beautiful (don't care for the rollkur but thats seemed to have gotten much better) and I think they did a lovely test, but a halt and salute is a halt and a salute. Its part of the test, it is a rule and I know after I just watched again SHE DID NOT SALUTE at the end of the freestyle. So why wasn't she DQ??? Is is because she is Anky?? Is it because they don't want to have to explain that to the world? Is it because she spent 80,000:eek: to have her music composed to her horse?? I think fair is fair and when something is so obvious as not saluting and if its a rule that they are DQ then it should be upheld everywhere. Even at the Olympic level.

KSevnter
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:24 PM
3 times Olympic Gold in a row, doesn't that say something about correctness ?. Correctness these days is showing what the judges want to see. So burn your old books and start reading some more up to date ones.

You are kidding right? Please be kidding, because I would hate to think that you really believe that correctness in dressage (that would be basic training of a horse) is showing the judges what they want to see.

Edited to Add: The FEI Rules
Article 430

10. Salute.
Competitors must take the reins in one hand at the salute.

14. Beginning/End of test.
A test begins with the entry at A and ends after
the salute at the end of the test, as soon as the horse moves forward.

12. Leaving arena during competition.
A horse leaving the arena
completely, with all four feet, during a dressage competition between the time
of entry and the time of exit at A, will be eliminated.

16. Details to the Freestyle Test
At the beginning and end of a Freestyle Test a halt for the salute is
compulsory. The test time will start after the rider moves forward after the
halt.

Reading the rules together, she should have been eliminated. A halt "for the salute" is compulsory in the freestyle at the end of the test. The test does not end until "after" the final salute, so technically she did not finish her test because she never saluted. And of course, "A horse leaving the arena completely, with all four feet, during a dressage competition between the time of entry and the time of exit at A, will be eliminated."

Coral
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:53 PM
3 times Olympic Gold in a row, doesn't that say something about correctness ?. Correctness these days is showing what the judges want to see. So burn your old books and start reading some more up to date ones.

:lol: Ahhh, I see! Well, I think maybe you should have computers judging if that's the case. I mean if everyone in the world is being held up to one person's correctness you should just have a machine that gives proper consistent scoring based on pre-conceived notions so that there is no mistaking it. I don't know much about dressage, and now I really understand why I have no desire to learn more, because if this farce is what your sport is based on then it's not a sport it's a popularity contest.

Auventera Two
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:08 PM
An Olympic gymnist doesn't win the gold when he fails to stick the dismount and falls on his face, regardless how many flips he perfectly executed 45 seconds earlier. An Olympic relay swimmer gets his whole team disqualified if he dives off the block before his team mate's hand touches the wall, regardless if he can set a new world record with his swim time.

If a horse cannot halt (or better yet - if a rider can't be bothered long enough to halt) during an Olympic test - they do NOT deserve a gold medal.

When you get to that level you do NOT just blow off the easy stuff because it's somehow beneath you. Personally I think they should have rung the bell on her for failure to execute a movement. I don't care what kind of a time bomb the horse is. If he's so dangerous that demanding he halt would send him in a tailspin, then maybe they need to take a step back with the horse and establish some basics before taking him onto the world stage. It's an embarassment to her country to not salute the judges. It may not be required by FEI rule, but pretty damned rude to not do it.

LisaB
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:09 PM
Good one Auventura!

Auventera Two
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:16 PM
Even the most beautifully trained and obedient horse can be nervous. So the horse didn't halt.

Heck - if my horse had been in that arena he'd have peed himself, bolted, and then dropped dead from a heart attack. Wonder how the judges would have scored that movement? :cool:

Bleh. I don't even like Anky's style, and I think this horse needs Prozac and a different job. But the beating up on these folks is a little over the top.

I agree with you. Any horse can get nervous and blow a movement. But my gripe is with not awarding a 0, or a disqualification for failing to execute the movement. Horses are not machines and even the best of them do things wrong sometimes. No problem there. But it should have been "awarded" accordingly by the judging panel. Even a 3 or a 4 is TOO HIGH. It should have been a 0 by ALL judges, because the movement WAS NOT EXECUTED AT ALL. My horse has gotten a 58% on a training level test when she was being a complete lunatic during the test, and it was very much deserved. Horses will be horses, and that includes Salinero. But then it needs to be judged accordingly.

And total failure to salute the judges is inexcusable.

CookiePony
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:18 PM
If I were to just not halt in a test, I bet I would get a 1 or 2 so how on EARTH can you say she deserved 5, 6 or 7?????? Just because that's the lowest score received doesn't mean squat

Yes, me too. I work my butt off for a straight, immobile halt and I get a 7... she doesn't perform it and she gets a 7. What gives?

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:20 PM
Any evidence that supports the assertion that she "blew off" the judges?

David O'Connor didn't get disqualified for unauthorized assistance. He once went off course and realized his mistake due to the crowd shouting at him.

Unauthorized assistance. And yet he was not disqualified.

I'm not sure a lapse (not saluting) is an "embarrassment to your country". Hanoi Jane might fit that label. Rude? If it was an intentional lapse and we know for a fact that she's said something like, Taxes are for the little people". The lady is hardly going around making farting sounds with her armpit. She's not drunk and running around town painted orange and puking in the gutters. Now that might be a little embarrassing.

I dunno. Let's compare. How 'bout y'all saddle up your horses and perform the same test in similar circumstances. Then let us critique you.

I've got my red pencil sharpened.

Don't like her style, don't care for the horse.

But the torches and pitchforks are a bit much, don't you think? :winkgrin:

So she got too high of a score for that movement. Maybe she should have received a zero. Judges aren't perfect. Heck, it's even possible that a judge misses something another judge catches.










When you get to that level you do NOT just blow off the easy stuff because it's somehow beneath you. It's an embarassment to her country to not salute the judges. It may not be required by FEI rule, but pretty damned rude to not do it.

LisaB
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:26 PM
J Swan, no the crowd didn't shout at him. Watch the video. They all took a big breath. But luckily, everyone did not shout anything out. The GJ and everyone reviewed the tapes to make sure before he won. Don't lump eventers with this fiasco! We have enough troubles!

AccidentsJustHappen
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:30 PM
I completly agree with "Auventera Two", word for word.

I also agree with a earlier statement, the halt is such a basic movement and very important movement. And at that level to not be able to bring your horse to halt so that you can salute properly is in my opinion unacceptable. The tests say "Halt- Immobilitly" not slow down.

And the fact that she didn't salute just compeltly blows my mind I didn't realize at first but after reading this and checking, wow. I just cant believe that she didn't get DQ. I know people who did a half @$$ salute b/c there horse was being goofy or whatever and they were drilled by the judge. I personally believe saluting not only shows respect for the judge but also for your horse and your partnership throught what you are doing. It just blew my mind that she didn't.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:34 PM
I completly agree with "Auventera Two", word for word.

I also agree with a earlier statement, the halt is such a basic movement and very important movement. And at that level to not be able to bring your horse to halt so that you can salute properly is in my opinion unacceptable. The tests say "Halt- Immobilitly" not slow down.

And the fact that she didn't salute just compeltly blows my mind I didn't realize at first but after reading this and checking, wow. I just cant believe that she didn't get DQ. I know people who did a half @$$ salute b/c there horse was being goofy or whatever and they were drilled by the judge. I personally believe saluting not only shows respect for the judge but also for your horse and your partnership throught what you are doing. It just blew my mind that she didn't.

well, hate to break it to you all, but it obviously did not bother the experienced international dressage judges. And those are the only opinions that count. ;)

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:36 PM
You're right - it was a giant collective gasp! Didn't mean to lump eventers in with this mess!

You gotta admit though - that was a judgment call on the part of the GJ. I think they made the right call - but it could have gone the other way, too.

Though I doubt anyone would call David O'Connor an embarrassment to his country. At least not in my presence. :mad:


J Swan, no the crowd didn't shout at him. Watch the video. They all took a big breath. But luckily, everyone did not shout anything out. The GJ and everyone reviewed the tapes to make sure before he won. Don't lump eventers with this fiasco! We have enough troubles!

MelantheLLC
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:40 PM
I dunno, I'm just getting a little tired of the way she rips off her hat and cheers for herself the end of every ride.

I noticed it in the GPS even though she didn't have so much to cheer about.

The first time someone is so thrilled with their performance that they just bust out in emotion is charming. She seems to be making a habit of it and is looking more like a Broadway actress hoping for more curtain calls.

And yeah, this is picky and catty and I can't ride like her and yadda yadda. I'd just be more impressed with a little humility at this stage in her career. Even if she has no reason to be humble. ;)

Beezer
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:49 PM
David O'Connor didn't get disqualified for unauthorized assistance. He once went off course and realized his mistake due to the crowd shouting at him.

Unauthorized assistance. And yet he was not disqualified.

I assume you're talking about his much-talked about show jumping round when he won the gold in eventing? He never went off course. Didn't happen. He did momentarily lose his concentration when he glanced back at a fence Custom Made had smacked and dropped off his pace a bit and admits to a moment of confusion, but in no way did he ever go off course, nor did he cross his tracks, miss a fence, nothing. There was zip, zilch, nada reason to penalize him.

As for the assertion that the crowd shouting at him was what straightened him out, well, that's a nice fairy tale, but O'Connor himself has stated repeatedly that the shouting had no affect on him or where he was on the course. Honestly ... do you really think that a bunch of people shouting several random words -- "no!" "the wall!" "OHHHHH!!" "Wrong one!" "Turn!!" etc. -- comes across as something other than an undecipherable bunch of noise? Even in venues such as the indoor arenas for the World Cup show jumping, where the packed crowds cluck and kiss and moan and groan and yell and shout, the riders pretty much all say that they are so focused, they don't hear it.


I dunno. Let's compare. How 'bout y'all saddle up your horses and perform the same test in similar circumstances. Then let us critique you.

This argument never makes sense whenever it gets trotted out. Just because I've never roped a steer in my life, that doesn't mean I can't tell when someone has a good or bad throw. I've sat on some cutting horses but never ridden in a futurity; also doesn't mean I don't know the difference between a horse that works a cow well and one that doesn't.

Rules are rules. Sure, a lot of people bend them and get away with it, but usually when they get broken, there are consequences. I'm pretty sure what people are saying is that there's a rule saying the judges must be saluted at the beginning and end of a test, or one is DQ'd. Treating them to champagne afterward doesn't count -- although it probably gives one a head start on the next competition.

freestyle2music
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:57 PM
How often do i have to spell this out :mad:

Not performing a compulsory movement means a zero, not disqualification.

And you know what ! Not having delivered a reserve-music-tape means DQ, and like in Sydney (thank god) the judges (Eric Lette) let Ulla Salzgeber restart her test at the end of the competition.

BTW

Anky scored three 8's and two 7's for her halt at the start of her test.

TeddyRocks
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:58 PM
I'm sorry...I don't generally post on Dressage....but if your horse can't handle halting correctly without having issues, that's pathetic and should not be winning gold medals. I don't care how fantastic other movements are. A halt is one of the most basic commands, and if your horse can't even manage that, then well...it's sad what wins in Dressage today.

As I have stated before and often... and just a little while ago, Salinero is just not my cup of tea, and I don't find him at all that much fun too watch, even when the music is bang on, and the changes are there, etc... BUT, the tests to me are designed the way they are for a reason... To give individual scores for a movement, and then move on to the next movement... Some horses just can't halt, and I've complained about Salinero's halt and Anky's lack of salute. BUT IMHO, in any dressage test... it is just one movement, one score, then it factors into the test...

I have a cute connemara gelding that has NEVER gotten above a 5 on a trot lengthen... An extended trot, ha... it won't ever happen (well not with me on his back), but will that keep me from competing him higher? NO... WE will just make it up on our lateral work (which is fabulous), our free walks, our rein backs, and yes:D our halts... etc...

Coreene
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:02 PM
Ya know, if it had been Salinero hopping around the way Brentina did in the GP, all and sundry here would have been bitching that it was the horse standing up to her because of the way Anky rides. Instead, we had the cannonization of Saint Debbie.

If it had been Salinero doing the eff up instead of Satchmo, instead of a thread re Is Satchmo Lame, it would have been Salinero Against Rollkur.

Steffen got well and truly fu*ked out of a medal because of the German judge. I would be more worried about that then how what you saw on TV didn't look right to you. Obviously the judges thought it was sufficient.

grayarabpony
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:11 PM
Ya know, if it had been Salinero hopping around the way Brentina did in the GP, all and sundry here would have been bitching that it was the horse standing up to her because of the way Anky rides. Instead, we had the cannonization of Saint Debbie.

If it had been Salinero doing the eff up instead of Satchmo, instead of a thread re Is Satchmo Lame, it would have been Salinero Against Rollkur.

Steffen got well and truly fu*ked out of a medal because of the German judge. I would be more worried about that then how what you saw on TV didn't look right to you. Obviously the judges thought it was sufficient.

Salinero was uneven in the Grand Prix Special. Tense or lame?

Why should anyone just swallow what the judges say? That would be naive and maybe even stupid. We all have our own eyes and brains, which tell some of us that Anky's work on Salinero in the kur wasn't worth an 82% score, any more than Isabella Werth's was worth 78%.

Equibrit
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:12 PM
Unfortunately Feo does not help Anky's case at all.
Why does he afford himself bragging rights. Did he once lick her boots?

Mozart
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:19 PM
Oh to have a front row seat at the next Global Dressage Forum when the topic of Reixinger comes up. Coreene dearest, you will take notes won't you?


Even his bell ringing style is bringing up suggestions of favouritism.

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:21 PM
Yes, and you'll see that I never made any of the assertions that you're crediting me with. So put away the rope. I know he didn't go off course, and the example was intended to illustrate that judging requires... judgment. And sometimes it's not the correct judgment. Most of the time it is. It's not perfect.

For crissakes - y'all make watching the Olympics about as enjoyable as having a colonoscopy.


I get tired of the Internet Experts holding forth on how top level riders can't do this or that. I don't even care for Anky in any way - but for crissakes leave it. Her fat neurotic horse didn't halt and the judges scored her anyway. She's got an ego. Name a sporting celebrity that doesn't. She's got groupies and a following and no doubt judges favor her. Tell me something I don't know.

I'm not a high level rider, and can recognize faults just like the rest of you. But for once, I'd like to see some of these Experts do much of anything. Comparing this horse to a backyard pleasure horse - there's no comparison. It's not even in the same ballpark.

The halt is important. Crucial. I'm not capable of this level of riding;and can recognize mistakes when I see them. But honestly - I'm a bit tired of the OP's pot stirring posts, and also fed up with trying to find a thread that discusses a ride I've just seen.... only to find it's a bunch of hens wanting ot lynch someone because of the way they stood when the anthem is played.

It's just ridiculous.




I assume you're talking about his much-talked about show jumping round when he won the gold in eventing? He never went off course. Didn't happen. He did momentarily lose his concentration when he glanced back at a fence Custom Made had smacked and dropped off his pace a bit and admits to a moment of confusion, but in no way did he ever go off course, nor did he cross his tracks, miss a fence, nothing. There was zip, zilch, nada reason to penalize him.

Rules are rules. Sure, a lot of people bend them and get away with it, but usually when they get broken, there are consequences. I'm pretty sure what people are saying is that there's a rule saying the judges must be saluted at the beginning and end of a test, or one is DQ'd. Treating them to champagne afterward doesn't count -- although it probably gives one a head start on the next competition.

mickeydoodle
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:22 PM
Who cares about the halt? The rest of the test was quite brilliant. Salinero has matured steadily, he is listening and thinking intently all during the freestyle. At the end he was expecting to still do the piaffe/passage sequence and was ready to go on! Look at poor Brentinna, she barely made it thru the test and her last extended trot was a passagy-behind the leg- resistant nightmare.

Stephan's ride was really nice, but the tempis were a problem, if you look at the slo-mo replay, there were several that were together behind, and he did not have anyplace in the test to repeat and improve them.

I just read the FEI rule book, and paid attention to the level of difficulty suggestions for the freestyles. It helped clear up some things for me. I was always a little confused as to what was considered an increased level of difficulty. For example, a piaffe pirouette is not considered an increased level of difficulty, but extended canter on a straight line to a pirouette is.


If Mark Phelps can shout and throw his hands up at his umpteenth gold medal, cannot an equestrian do the same at the end of a really good test? If I ever came even close to that type of experience, I would probably just collapse and fall off the horse in tears of joy at the end of the test. When I won the regional third level championship I was so emotional that I was shaking.

BLBGP
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:35 PM
If Mark Phelps can shout and throw his hands up at his umpteenth gold medal, cannot an equestrian do the same at the end of a really good test? If I ever came even close to that type of experience, I would probably just collapse and fall off the horse in tears of joy at the end of the test. When I won the regional third level championship I was so emotional that I was shaking.

Of course they can celebrate. They should celebrate. All I was asking about was the salute. Someone posted a rule saying that failing to salute = elimination. She obviously did not salute. Isn't that kind of like not going through the timers?

Perhaps I should post this on the "A message to the Salute Police of COTH" thread ;)

I do think it's odd that a top dressage horse doesn't have a halt, though. He looks scary to ride.

Coreene
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:36 PM
Oh to have a front row seat at the next Global Dressage Forum when the topic of Reixinger comes up. Coreene dearest, you will take notes won't you?

Even his bell ringing style is bringing up suggestions of favouritism.Sadly, no GDF for me this year. Two weeks in Holland in April, complete with too much shopping, means GDF comes on the schedule for next year's travels. :cool:

Beezer
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:42 PM
Yes, and you'll see that I never made any of the assertions that you're crediting me with. So put away the rope. I know he didn't go off course, and the example was intended to illustrate that judging requires... judgment. And sometimes it's not the correct judgment. Most of the time it is. It's not perfect.

What, exactly, are the assertions I'm crediting you with making? You said he went off course, which would be things such as taking the wrong fence, crossing his tracks, missing a fence, etc. How do you quantify going off course? :confused: And if you now say you know that he didn't go off course, why on earth did you say before that he did? Why would you try to use a false example to make your case?


For crissakes - y'all make watching the Olympics about as enjoyable as having a colonoscopy.

Please. You've been on this board long enough to know better than to think it would be any different. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I truly, honestly do. not. care. who wins an Olympic medal, be they individual or team, in pretty much any sport (although, OK, I was bummed that the U.S. men once again blew their shot at moving on in football ... er, soccer). There. I said it. :p I simply like seeing world-class athletes strut their stuff (and, man, do some of those swimmers have nice stuff :winkgrin: ). I do, however, think that the playing field should be level, and clearly, it wasn't in the dressage judging. It's not like that's minority opinion.

Coreene, I know the reason for all the shopping, you skinny thing you. :D

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:56 PM
What, exactly, are the assertions I'm crediting you with making? You said he went off course, which would be things such as taking the wrong fence, crossing his tracks, missing a fence, etc. How do you quantify going off course? :confused: And if you now say you know that he didn't go off course, why on earth did you say before that he did? Why would you try to use a false example to make your case?

:D

Not a false example - a terse reference to a situation that merited a judgment call on the part of officials. It's the only one I could think of off the top of my head. I saw the same ride you did. And not intended to "make a case". That would mean 1) I gave a crap 2) That I would have gone into great detail 3) That each word would have been chosen to justify the actions of these particular judges - for the halt, using previous examples. It was a passing inaccurate reference to illustrate that judging - THE JUDGES - have to make calls and they can be good calls or bad ones. And there's often bias. I wasn't emphasizing the details of the RIDE, but the JUDGING.


Instead y'all focused on the fact that I didn't choose my words knowing that COTH was also full of jailhouse lawyers in addition to internet experts.;) We're quite a talented bunch.


Geez - don't y'all remember people joking about "The Russian Judge" in gymnastics during the height of the Cold War?

The eventing forum has gotten just as bad recently. People seem disappointed when riders succeed. It's a little creepy.

monstrpony
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:01 PM
Ya know, there's another way to look at it. The tests say "halt-immobility-salute". I assume the same is expected in the freestyles, even though it isn't specified.

So, you could make the argument that she DID "halt"--ceased forward movement--but that immobility was not established/maintained, because the horse continued in a quiet piaffe. So, she still executed the manuver though there was no quality (immobility).

And you could even say that she was saluting when she threw both her hands up, which happened immediately before the horse started moving forward. The rules say salute, but I don't think they specify what form the salute has to take. The test ends when the horse moves forward from the halt, which he didn't do until after she put up her hands.

So an argument could be made that what she decided not to demand of her horse was immobility, not that she failed to halt or salute at all.

Just sayin' (and I'm not an Anky fan, but I do think this argument has become, well, really petty. There was no disrespect in her face or her attitude at the end of the freestyle).

J Lav
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:29 PM
I agree with you. Any horse can get nervous and blow a movement. But my gripe is with not awarding a 0, or a disqualification for failing to execute the movement. Horses are not machines and even the best of them do things wrong sometimes. No problem there. But it should have been "awarded" accordingly by the judging panel. Even a 3 or a 4 is TOO HIGH. It should have been a 0 by ALL judges, because the movement WAS NOT EXECUTED AT ALL. My horse has gotten a 58% on a training level test when she was being a complete lunatic during the test, and it was very much deserved. Horses will be horses, and that includes Salinero. But then it needs to be judged accordingly.

And total failure to salute the judges is inexcusable.

Actually a 0 would NOT have been correct as the mark in the Freestyle is for BOTH entry and exit halts and the first halt was a good one.

Therefore the judge has to take that into account. I agree that those that gave 6 and 7 were too high but assuming a 9 for the entry and a 0 for the exit then 5 would have been the correct mark.

It is not elimination if the salute is not performed either!! It is 2 marks off as an 'error of test'. As a judge, IME, it happens more often then you would think, at all levels and for many different reasons.

Beezer
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:31 PM
Eh, whatever J. Swan. We're not going to see eye to eye on this (i.e. you say he was off course but now say he really wasn't and you know that, then it was an example but now it's not, etc.), much like we're likely not going to see eye to eye on many other things.

Such is life. I no doubt seem nit-picky to you, but my job is details, facts, details, facts, details, facts and did I mention, details and facts? So I kind of a stickler for such things.

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:43 PM
And so was my job. Details and facts.

I'm not at work - and you're not my managing partner. The intention was to illustrate that judging can be subjective. You are looking at the trees - I was glancing at the forest. Read the post for what it was intended to convey; especially since the poster has twice attempted to place it into context; knowing that the reference was not a very accurate one.

Insisting that you only see the trees means that you need to step back and broaden your perspective.


Eh, whatever J. Swan. We're not going to see eye to eye on this (i.e. you say he was off course but now say he really wasn't and you know that, then it was an example but now it's not, etc.), much like we're likely not going to see eye to eye on many other things.

Such is life. I no doubt seem nit-picky to you, but my job is details, facts, details, facts, details, facts and did I mention, details and facts? So I kind of a stickler for such things.

Lieslot
Aug. 20, 2008, 07:02 PM
In her personal blog Anky admits she forgot to salute the judges when she was leaving the ring.
She said the last days had been so incredibly tense for her. She was glad when she could finally enter the ring and when riding the freestyle she felt she finally lost that feeling of tremendous stress she endured the last few days.
As she finished her Freestyle she was so excited about both her and Sallie's performance and felt such relief that she completely forgot to salute the judges upon leaving the ring.

Her immediate reaction when dismounting was : "this never again", the competitive stress had been really hard these games to her. Of course now she may not say "this never again", but this is how she felt immediately after her freestyle.

nero
Aug. 20, 2008, 08:41 PM
How does 'compulsory' equate to 'disqualification' if its not performed? I believe piaffe at GP level is a compulsory move too, but if you do not perform a piaffe at all you DON'T get disqualified, you are simply not marked on the move, i.e zero. The argument that she should be disqualified is simply not true.

People are disproportionately fixated on the lack of halting in what appears to be a desperate attempt to justify their displeasure at Anky's training.

"""Well as the commentators said NONE OF HER HORSES HALT Give me a break, why not???"""
Despite what someone else here posted, her others horses DO halt, Painted Black, Krack C, Bonfire, they all halt....beautifully. The comenntator that said they didn't doesn't know what they are talking about.

Salinero is a super sensitive horse in a hyped up situation and this is his one weakness (all horses have weaknesses, does that mean we should throw them away when everything else is so damn good?) which is marked accordingly, he is not trained badly, he is not disobedient, he is not fried, he does not deserve to be disqualified, he is not the devil incarnate and Anky does not deserve to be burned at the stake! ;-)

I am so glad many ammies out there can make their horses halt, but how are your transistions, how are your half passes, what is your piaffe like, what is your horse's temperament, how eager are they to perform super flowing and energetic tests at a world class level, when was the last time your horses danced in a test at international GP worthy of a high 70's mark? Never? Well then, you need to see everything in context, come on!

nero
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:02 PM
An Olympic gymnist doesn't win the gold when he fails to stick the dismount and falls on his face, regardless how many flips he perfectly executed 45 seconds earlier. An Olympic relay swimmer gets his whole team disqualified if he dives off the block before his team mate's hand touches the wall, regardless if he can set a new world record with his swim time.

If a horse cannot halt (or better yet - if a rider can't be bothered long enough to halt) during an Olympic test - they do NOT deserve a gold medal.

When you get to that level you do NOT just blow off the easy stuff because it's somehow beneath you. Personally I think they should have rung the bell on her for failure to execute a movement. I don't care what kind of a time bomb the horse is. If he's so dangerous that demanding he halt would send him in a tailspin, then maybe they need to take a step back with the horse and establish some basics before taking him onto the world stage. It's an embarassment to her country to not salute the judges. It may not be required by FEI rule, but pretty damned rude to not do it.

Hmm, interesting, yet flawed analysis. IF a gymnast falls in the dismount technically they could still win the gold if all other movements were perfomed to a degree worthy of a score and all the other competitors failed to top that score, this is VERY different to your other example where a relay team is disquaiflied for breaking the rules. And as not performing a movement at all, including a halt, DOES NOT have you DQ'd then the argument applying to the gymnast example applies and it is actually possible then for that person to win. Otherwise why score eech move at all, why not just give overall scores for impression - well that would be ridiculous and waaay to subjective to be workable.

If a horse does not perform ONE movement but does everything else much or even sightly better than any other horse whioch also has some low marks for A movement of course it deserves to win under the rules of scoring. Just because it doesn't please your eye as an overall example of training doesn't mean it was not the best test under the rules. A personal opinion or a overall reaction to just watching a test is not the same as the judges marking each move, and this is the reason Isabell too was able to win silver despite her horse's resistance.

Beezer
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:19 PM
And so was my job. Details and facts.

I'm not at work - and you're not my managing partner. The intention was to illustrate that judging can be subjective. You are looking at the trees - I was glancing at the forest. Read the post for what it was intended to convey; especially since the poster has twice attempted to place it into context; knowing that the reference was not a very accurate one.

Insisting that you only see the trees means that you need to step back and broaden your perspective.

Le sigh. Ya know what? You're not getting my point, so I'm going to cease trying to make it. We disagree on the value of your illustration, although you now acknowledge that it was flawed, so we're both on the same page. It's all good.

As an aside, facts and details kinda belong in all of life, just not in the office. ;) And my prospective is plenty broad, thanks. Although maybe you should watch those drive-by glances at forests; they could get you hurt in the real world.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Anky train wreck! :D

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:30 PM
Oh - I agree with you that the value of my illustration was poor.

Couldn't think of anything else except gymnastics... and I just like to watch it - don't know much about it. So - bad example but tried to make it work and it didn't.

I'm just covering up the fact that I heart Anky and all y'all are being meanies - she's my BFF. :winkgrin:

2ndyrgal
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:45 PM
Wounds of Christ, diesel is over $4/gallon, who gives a tinker's damn whether HRM Anky saluted the judges or not? She probably has supper with them twice a month. I don't ride like Anky. I damn sure don't train like her and since the most important gait a field hunter can have is a good halt, then I'm an absolute genius. I don't spill my flask, can adjust my stirrups, my drawers, whathaveyou. Not much call for 20 meter circles in the huntfield, so I'm a bit behind in the classical training scale. Rhythm we have, I sing when I ride, tempo, yep, got it. Impulsion? Oh I have the impulse to sell the big bugger about every other week or so. Submission? You're kidding right? Collection? Our piaffe' in front of the barn when his buddies are in and he'd like to be eating makes Salerno(sp) look like a red headed step child. She didn't halt, the judges didn't care and yes ladies (or hens as JSwan prefers, though biddy may also be correct) it is Good To Be Anky! So give up on the righteous umbrage and really, I fail to see why noting individual trees as one is driving by safely on the road can be hazardous to one's health.

Carol Ames
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:53 PM
Is this test on youtube?

Carol Ames
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:03 PM
: The Subjectivity of dressage scoring, is nothing new:no:; If you read R. klimkes'book "
Ahlerich, making of champion'" you will see how it can be used to work for horse/rider:yes::cool:




however, think that the playing field should be level, and clearly, it wasn't in the dressage judging. It's not like that's minority opinion.

Kenike
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:04 PM
It's not the fact she didn't halt that bugged me so much as the comment made afterward about how she didn't really care because she knew she won. It's poor sportsmanship and leadership, beyond just doing the basic transition.

petitefilly
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:37 PM
Some people like rules. Some people hate rules. Some people break rules. Some people regard rules as guidelines. Some people regard rules as sacred law. All people do not believe the same thing about rules, rulings, or the people who make the rules. Rules are arbitrary. If one wants the rules to be life or death, then one needs a take the bull by the horns and make the rule breaker pay for the error of their ways.

And some people are Anky, and do not care because they are Queen of the Queens. The only way to have all of the people have the same thought process on rules is to make the rule non arbitrary. Penalties must be in place. Anky has had no penalties so she continues to break the halt rule. It has no effect on the out come of her score so why should she care? Frankly, it is a small point which makes the continuing rule lovers pissy, but she of course does not care one fig whether people care about her breaking the halt rules. After all, she is the Queen. As another person said ~Off with their heads!!!

whitewolfe001
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:40 PM
The disagreement is not over the halt, per se. You fail to understand the point of the arguments.

The point is that the inability to satisfactorily halt is indicative of a much bigger problem, namely, tension.

Not everyone agrees that the the rest of the ride is "brilliant" so who cares if the halt is flunked. (This is really sending the WRONG message, especially to our young riders. Who cares about basics? As long as you can force the horse to move real big and pretty, that's all that matters. This is what a lot of young riders believe because of her!)

Some of us see a horse that is extraordinarily tense as well as BTV throughout the test, and the non-halts are just icing on the training cake.

I won't lie or dance around it. I don't like Anky. I think her riding is ugly and her horses look cranked into submission just under the point of exploding. The impression I get of what riding Salinero must be like is that you better know how to brace yourself like you're holding on for dear life and keep a constant death grip on his mouth to box him together.

I'm not saying "I could do better" or that she is "evil" or other such nonsense. I just wish that she be *appropriately* marked down for the tension and overflexion throughout the tests and another more correct pair be marked higher. Dressage is not Saddleseat. It's supposed to be about correctness and creating a harmonious riding horse, not how "flashy" it can be. If flashy knee action is what is important to you, don't bother with the complexities of dressage... buy yourself a Saddlebred and have fun.

If her style of riding is what is deemed "best", then I suppose I choose not to believe that competition dressage is the ultimate test of the "art" of dressage anymore. I would much prefer to see a pair that is harmonious, a horse who looks relaxed and happy. Reiner Klimke is still my gold standard. He trained sympathetically and rode with softness. That is the kind of riding I strive for. I would NEVER choose to train by cranking, pulling, and tension to the point of not being able to stand still for 2 seconds just because "it's what wins". Just because it wins doesn't make it RIGHT.

high hat
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:17 PM
You know this is an important point. I've actually had a student marked down in a test for failing to come to an 'immobile halt before saluting'. I've scribed for judges that have directed me to comment to this on a test and scored accordingly. If the little people out there in dressageland can take a hit then I certainly think that someone who won a gold medal should be able to do so. The halt and salute weren't performed. That is a proven fact.

nero
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:32 PM
You know this is an important point. I've actually had a student marked down in a test for failing to come to an 'immobile halt before saluting'. I've scribed for judges that have directed me to comment to this on a test and scored accordingly. If the little people out there in dressageland can take a hit then I certainly think that someone who won a gold medal should be able to do so. The halt and salute weren't performed. That is a proven fact.
AND she was marked down for it, just like the test you scribed for.

Ambrey
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:52 PM
She doesn't halt because she learned a long time ago that it made very little difference in her scores.

'taint rocket science ;) She's there to win, not to impress the peanut gallery.

I was telling a friend earlier that I think Salinero always looks tense and swishy and ready to explode. But, that has been the method to Anky's madness, she's figured out how to control him and still take advantage of his tremendous energy, and she's winning. Why would she change? Don't fix what ain't broke!

Fixerupper
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:05 AM
You say there is too much politics in dressage judging, but look at yourselves - it seems some horse people have become so partisan in the wake of the AVG/Rollkur debate, they can't recognise quality movements when they see them, or else they choose to ignore them in favour of harping on 10 seconds of a 6 minute ride. This is debilitating to the future of dressage. Go on, critique certain movements of tests (so let's talk about Steffen's mistakes in the tempi changes, etc)... but stop ignoring the excellent moments that you could learn from. :no:

Halting, Saluting and bowing out.....

let the judgements commence.


I happen to agree with you about the halt thing ;). While Salinero was a bit frenetic in the early parts of the competition...unlike the others, his extraordinary high energy level translated into a marvelous kur. While all the others were showing some degree of fatigue by the final test, Salinaro still had gas in the tank. Makes for some difficult early rides, but works in the long run. Halt...ya whatever.

Sabine
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:09 AM
The disagreement is not over the halt, per se. You fail to understand the point of the arguments.

The point is that the inability to satisfactorily halt is indicative of a much bigger problem, namely, tension.

.

I agree with many of your points listed in your post. However you must understand that so far- unless new and better horses are bred- the horses that are now able to perform solid GP are at best 9 or 10 yrs old. These horses still don't have all the latest awesome improvements 'built in'...so you actually need to 'train' the brilliance into the horse.
The dream of classical dressage does not sell on the international competitive scene and I think we have many times discussed this ad infinitum. Our eyes have become too well trained and are significantly disturbed by a little bobble here and there...not enough energy in transitions is a huge one.
So- if you ride- which I hope you do- and you need to push down the gas pedal and there is no-go...then you have a problem...and that is something that was the root of Sjef's training and I believe he has attacked the problem at the right end- but like I said- the quality of horses was not quite at the level that he was training at. SOOOO- that's why we have Anky- who has managed to bridge the gap=riding very very very extremely precise, intuitive and soft- so not to repel the forward in the horse. Then you of course can have a halt problem- and honestly - I don't know if that is rooted in the training method or simply the ueber-hotness of the horse. Given that the horse had to travel far, live in airconditioned surroundings (that is simply unheard of in Europe or the US) and listen to mostly very strange sounds...I would assume he is a bit hotter than usual (I am referring to the chinese language that can sound rather disturbing over loud speakers to someone not used to it...) I can clearly remember some very nice HALTS from Anky and Sal prior to this competition - earlier in the year in Europe.

So there....just chill folks- it's part of the deal...Sal had an amazing freestyle...let it rest already and acknowledge that he did a GREAT JOB!.

Fixerupper
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:14 AM
yup!

Siswai
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:01 AM
... Anky- who has managed to bridge the gap=riding very very very extremely precise, intuitive and soft- so not to repel the forward in the horse. ..

Are you being serious? Have you seen her riding in a chair seat, leaning way back, cranking the horse in with the reins and curb, and digging her spurs in every stride? I've seen videos of her riding this way continuously for the entire ride. And even though she doesn't ride to this extreme in the show ring, she is still WAY more forceful than many other top riders, IMO.

Yes, she is extremely talented. I just wish that her talents were put to better use than they currently are (riding and promoting a very forceful, harsh, and harmful to the horse method of training).

And the fact that she is winning only illustrates the deep flaws within competitive dressage these days, esp. at the highest levels. I think the reason is exactly what you said, that classical riding doesn't "sell", and focusing on non-horsey, uneducated audiences means that judging has changed to penalize any visible "bobble" (as you put it), rather than penalizing riders according to the rules like they are supposed to (such as lack of purity of the canter in the pirouettes, failure to lengthen the frame in extensions, or behind the vertical in piaffe, to name a few examples).

This is a HUGE problem, IMHO, and this Olympics only confirms this trend.:mad:

Ambrey
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:36 AM
And the fact that she is winning only illustrates the deep flaws within competitive dressage these days, esp. at the highest levels. I think the reason is exactly what you said, that classical riding doesn't "sell", and focusing on non-horsey, uneducated audiences means that judging has changed to penalize any visible "bobble" (as you put it), rather than penalizing riders according to the rules like they are supposed to (such as lack of purity of the canter in the pirouettes, failure to lengthen the frame in extensions, or behind the vertical in piaffe, to name a few examples).


Uh, bobbles are not penalized, unless... what did Isabell Werth get, 76? is a bad score. Her horse had a hissy fit right in the middle!

But on the other hand, even my non-horsey hubby could recognize the lack of energy and vibrance of Mythilus, so there has to be some happy medium. Ravel looked good to me ;)

Siswai
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:04 AM
Yes, "bobbles" aren't supposed to be penalized unless they disrupt the movement in a way that violates the rules, but they can also lower the submission score (I thought). Wasn't SPs score for his one-tempis docked because of Ravel's tiny kick, even though it didn't alter the movement in any other way? (Or was that just a BB rumor?)

I think the problem is judges slamming one competitor and then letting it slide for another (Anky's failure to halt, for example)?

And I've personally seen judges lower a score for a horse momentarily coming above the bit (as a "bobble"), but routinely ignoring btv even when it is throughout the test. And witness Olympic horses routinely btv in piaffe (and other movements), being completely ignored by the judges (even though it is against the rules).

ise@ssl
Aug. 21, 2008, 05:42 AM
Well I suppose none of her horses halt because she and her Rolkur trainer husband have decided for the ENTIRE Dressage community that this is not necessary. Their arrogance is distasteful. I watched her rides at the WEG'S in Aachen and still can't understand why these judges mark her so much higher. The horses she rides are NEVER RELAXED. Their eyes are always showing stress and it's just not pleasant to watch.

I think the rules should be changed that if a rider DOES NOT complete 2 movements in the test they should be eliminated. What a snot that she just doesn't halt or salute. She says she's retiring from competition - we shall see if that's true.

I have to wonder where FEI Dressage is going with the debacles in the judging at these highest competitions.

nero
Aug. 21, 2008, 06:01 AM
Well I suppose none of her horses halt because she and her Rolkur trainer husband have decided for the ENTIRE Dressage community that this is not necessary. Their arrogance is distasteful. I watched her rides at the WEG'S in Aachen and still can't understand why these judges mark her so much higher. The horses she rides are NEVER RELAXED. Their eyes are always showing stress and it's just not pleasant to watch.

Sorry but have to correct this misinformation again, Anky's other horses DO halt, go get yourself an education and watch some of their tests, some are on you tube, horses are Bonfire, Painted Black, Krack C, Nelson, they all halt. SO you are just wrong, wrong, wrong. Why don't people do their research before they make such scathing comments.

BTW, you couldn't meet a woman less arrogant than Anky.

DownYonder
Aug. 21, 2008, 06:08 AM
She says she's retiring from competition - we shall see if that's true.

Not retiring yet. She is apparently planning to make a run for gold at the 2009 European Championships and the 2010 WEG in Kentucky. Also maybe the London Olympics in 2012 if someone gives her a brilliant new horse.

Bats79
Aug. 21, 2008, 06:42 AM
The disagreement is not over the halt, per se. You fail to understand the point of the arguments.

The point is that the inability to satisfactorily halt is indicative of a much bigger problem, namely, tension.

Not everyone agrees that the the rest of the ride is "brilliant" so who cares if the halt is flunked. (This is really sending the WRONG message, especially to our young riders. Who cares about basics? As long as you can force the horse to move real big and pretty, that's all that matters. This is what a lot of young riders believe because of her!)

Some of us see a horse that is extraordinarily tense as well as BTV throughout the test, and the non-halts are just icing on the training cake.

I won't lie or dance around it. I don't like Anky. I think her riding is ugly and her horses look cranked into submission just under the point of exploding. The impression I get of what riding Salinero must be like is that you better know how to brace yourself like you're holding on for dear life and keep a constant death grip on his mouth to box him together.

I'm not saying "I could do better" or that she is "evil" or other such nonsense. I just wish that she be *appropriately* marked down for the tension and overflexion throughout the tests and another more correct pair be marked higher. Dressage is not Saddleseat. It's supposed to be about correctness and creating a harmonious riding horse, not how "flashy" it can be. If flashy knee action is what is important to you, don't bother with the complexities of dressage... buy yourself a Saddlebred and have fun.

If her style of riding is what is deemed "best", then I suppose I choose not to believe that competition dressage is the ultimate test of the "art" of dressage anymore. I would much prefer to see a pair that is harmonious, a horse who looks relaxed and happy. Reiner Klimke is still my gold standard. He trained sympathetically and rode with softness. That is the kind of riding I strive for. I would NEVER choose to train by cranking, pulling, and tension to the point of not being able to stand still for 2 seconds just because "it's what wins". Just because it wins doesn't make it RIGHT.

Ditto!!

Equibrit
Aug. 21, 2008, 08:14 AM
View from the peanut gallery;

Olympics: Ballroom dancing for horses is so out of step

David Mitchell The Guardian,
Saturday August 16 2008

I've just been watching coverage of the Olympic dressage and I must say I'm absolutely baffled. In case you haven't seen it, let me explain what happens: people dressed in a sort of funereal version of fox-hunting gear take it in turns to go into a large sandy arena riding horses that seem to have been driven mad. The horses behave like the deranged dancing bears in those charity adverts, doing weird fidgety fastidious things that clearly aren't natural to them: they hop from foot to foot, they walk on the spot, they stand still for a bit, quivering, before turning round in awkward timorous circles and walking diagonally across the arena.
Quite what treatment these creatures have been put through to get them to be this odd I dread to think, but it gets stranger: sometimes the horse and rider's obsessive antics are condemned by the commentators and judges as disappointing and sloppy, while behaviour no more or less insane is hailed as excellent and just the thing, and indeed quite the spectacle to behold.
I wonder if any of these people saw the opening ceremony? For their sakes I hope not; if they find watching a horse getting the shakes in a sand-pit spectacular, the sight of those fireworks would have exploded their minds.
Now I know there must be rules to dressage. It's not really just craziness arbitrarily scored, like a sort of tortured horse version of Mornington Crescent, but the fact that brilliance and incompetence are indistinguishable to all but the dressage cognoscenti does not speak well of the sport.
I couldn't watch it for long without the question "Why is doing this in any way good?" springing to mind. I'm perfectly willing to admit that it must be very difficult to make horses do that, but what's the point?
Obviously I'm straying into dangerous territory asking what's the point of a sport - you can argue that almost any leisure activity is pointless, but most sports involve at least something accomplished or exciting enough to make it clear why the activity is pursued. But with dressage, I'm not sure. I completely understand why it's good to make horses run fast or jump over things - but what is the satisfaction in this tuneless dance, this effortful yet unentertaining capering about?
I must admit that my feelings against dressage are intensified by the fact that it's one of the sports that is scored by judges. I don't like that. I accept that some sort of judging is involved in all Olympic events - whether it's a referee in a hockey match or a line judge in the tennis - but the judging involved in gymnastics, diving and dressage is on a completely different level. They're not just deciding whether or not a goal has been scored, but what a goal actually is. The spectre of artistic impression hangs over them all in a way that makes me suspect that, skilful and worthwhile though gymnastics and diving may be, they should be put in the same category as dancing rather than the shot put: they're not, essentially, proper sports.
A proper sport has a clearly defined aim: "Get to that line first", "Throw that object the furthest", "Kick that round thing into that gap more times than them". It doesn't matter how inelegantly these things are done, the winner is clear; indeed, as sports develop, what is effective in the achievement of the stated aim is what comes to look elegant.
Sports that involve a judging panel have much fuzzier aims - a combination of electing to do difficult things while not being seen to have made any mistakes - and so you need several people's opinions to determine the extent to which the competitor has succeeded. If such subjectivity is permissible in determining victory or defeat, then why not open up the Olympics to ballroom dancing (after all, ice dancing is in the Winter Olympics), flower arranging or amateur dramatics? You might say that not all of those activities require peak physical fitness, but then neither do archery or shooting.
The distinction between proper and judged sports is at its clearest when you compare ski jumping in the Winter Olympics with the long jump. In ski jumping points are determined by various factors including "style" whereas the long jump is entirely about how far you jump, no matter how much of a gangly fool you look while you do it.
Surely the aim of ski jumping should be to jump as far or high as possible and then land safely? Why should style have anything to do with it if it doesn't help you jump further? If it was discovered that an airborne attempt at the hokey cokey added yards to the jump distance, surely that's what the jumpers should do - but they wouldn't because they'd lose points for style.
Of course the scoring problem is less easily fixed when it comes to gymnastics and diving, and I'm not really saying that the Olympics would be better without them. The fact that they are Olympic sports encourages people to get involved. And, within those sports, there's undoubtedly a clear sense of what excellence is.
But I'd nix the dressage in a heartbeat - and bring in snooker instead. It should be at least a couple of Olympiads before the Chinese and the Germans are better at that than us.

Bats79
Aug. 21, 2008, 08:19 AM
David Mitchell of The Guardian has made his opinion of any sport that is judged on "impression" quite clear.

While it was funny the first time to read it I find myself not to be so interested in reading it when it is posted in the 50th thread I have opened in the past 2 days. :(

ise@ssl
Aug. 21, 2008, 08:21 AM
Nero - I don't need any education to know what I'm seeing. And the great thing about youtube is that it not only has videos of competition - it also has videos of WARMUPS. And the horrid riding in the warmups isn't justified for what happens later in the ring. And of all the riders at FEI - she's the only one I wouldn't even want to meet. So many others are approachable and show a great enjoyment when riding - IMO - she never does. It always looks stressed, strained and PUSHED.

And I really don't believe she will retire - she's trolling IMHO for someone to step forward with some big buck horses.

yaya
Aug. 21, 2008, 08:29 AM
I have to wonder where FEI Dressage is going with the debacles in the judging at these highest competitions.

Apparently they don't think there is a problem:

REPORT BY THE SECOND FEI VICE PRESIDENT ON DRESSAGE

A detailed report on the findings of the FEI Second Vice President concerning a meeting held in Hong Kong was produced. The conclusion of the report is that the meetings had not affected the judging. The procedure will, however, be tightened so that this will not happen again. Dressage has had an excellent competition which was judged to the high standards expected at the Olympic Games

high hat
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:37 AM
AND she was marked down for it, just like the test you scribed for.

Not hardly as the tests I've seen have it marked insufficient '4'. Those judges were "nice" if it isn't shown it should be a zero.

hitchinmygetalong
Aug. 21, 2008, 09:56 AM
I liked the pink horse the best. :)

Ambrey
Aug. 21, 2008, 12:59 PM
Yes, "bobbles" aren't supposed to be penalized unless they disrupt the movement in a way that violates the rules, but they can also lower the submission score (I thought). Wasn't SPs score for his one-tempis docked because of Ravel's tiny kick, even though it didn't alter the movement in any other way? (Or was that just a BB rumor?)

I think the problem is judges slamming one competitor and then letting it slide for another (Anky's failure to halt, for example)?

Exactly, the problem isn't with the overall concept but with uneven application.

If they were marking down for bobbles, it seems like a hissy fit would be a big one. But they are marking some riders down for some bobbles, letting others slide, etc.

It's basically what everyone has been saying for so long (that they turn the other way when their favorites mess up), but finally got some public exposure. You'd think they would have understood that doing such things while in the olympic fishbowl would mess up their little system, but clearly they thought they were above reproach.

mickeydoodle
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:45 PM
I liked the pink horse, looked like a sturdy guy, but everything was a little frantic in his test I thought.

That reporter for the Guardian (isn't that a tabloid?) thinks it is ok to make horses run fast or jump high? How come?

STF
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:52 PM
Unfortunately Feo does not help Anky's case at all.
Why does he afford himself bragging rights. Did he once lick her boots?

I thought he was the one she paid 80K to for her fresstyle configuration??? He IS the best, he is not?

Coreene
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:55 PM
I thought he was the one she paid 80K to for her fresstyle configuration??? He IS the best, he is not?Wibi Sjoeradi did her music.

STF
Aug. 21, 2008, 02:57 PM
I was being extreamly sarcastic.

Coreene
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:06 PM
I was being extreamly sarcastic.No, really? :lol: But in the meantime, people would be stupid enough to read it and believe it is so, hence pointing out who the correct person was.

grayarabpony
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:31 PM
I need to see this pink horse everybody is talking about.

Minaret
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:41 PM
I need to see this pink horse everybody is talking about.

Not the best quality of video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5nCBAks6WY

Mardi
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:51 PM
Some horses just can't halt, and I've complained about Salinero's halt and Anky's lack of salute. BUT IMHO, in any dressage test... it is just one movement, one score, then it factors into the test...



As you said, the halt is just one movement out of many. So let's choose another for a moment. Like the canter half-pass. Let's say Salinero can't do them. He's too hot, and can't manage them. Sometimes his rider makes a half-hearted attempt to do them, and other times, there's no attempt at all. In any case, the horse just doesn't do canter half-passes so they are left out of his test. But everything is else is great. Now what do we say ?

Seriously though, IMHO the halt and salute, ESPECIALLY the final halt and salute have more meaning than some of the other movements. Not only does it demonstrate that the horse still has brakes and submission after all that forward work, but the final halt and salute is a sign of respect to the judges, no matter what show. That is the one of the backbones of equestrian sports !

Sadly for international level dressage, Anky's purposeful omission of the final halt/salute in her test tells me that she knew there would be no negative consequences for her decision.

Later on she admitted it herself, when she said that she knew she had already won the gold, and so didn't bother to complete the final and required movement of her test.

As the saying goes: Sports don't make character, they reveal it.

Yes, she is an excellent rider ! But as sportswoman, with all due respect to the gold medal winner, she lags behind.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:54 PM
Plus, a good halt is necessary to be able to sip from one's flask without spilling. :D

:lol: best reason for a good halt I've heard all day! :yes:

Mardi
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:55 PM
That's why there are TWO halts ! :)

grayarabs
Aug. 21, 2008, 03:56 PM
Whitewolf - agree with you totally. I would hate for someone whom has never seen dressage to see her and think that is what it is all about. Where are the very basics of the training scale? Relaxation? Doing as if of own accord? I feel so sorry for that horse. I wonder what he would be like under a different training style/rider?
I don't like how AvG trains nor how she rides. I still cannot believe that all the judges are so bowled over by her. I will never get it. She is so far from my idea/ideal of dressage.
Will she continue competing Salinero? Possibly sell him? Wonder what he would be worth and who would possibly buy him? I think AvG's true calling would have been in Saddlebreds and saddleseat. I can sooooooo see her there - and I mean that in a good way. For dressage - it breaks my heart. It truly does.

Coreene
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:16 PM
Later on she admitted it herself, when she said that she knew she had already won the gold, and so didn't bother to complete the final and required movement of her test.I'd love to see that in Dutch. Because what she said was "Ik ben helemaal vergeten af te groeten naar de jury," which translated means "I completely forgot to salute the judges."

grayarabpony
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:20 PM
Whitewolf - agree with you totally. I would hate for someone whom has never seen dressage to see her and think that is what it is all about. Where are the very basics of the training scale? Relaxation? Doing as if of own accord? I feel so sorry for that horse. I wonder what he would be like under a different training style/rider?
I don't like how AvG trains nor how she rides. I still cannot believe that all the judges are so bowled over by her. I will never get it. She is so far from my idea/ideal of dressage.
Will she continue competing Salinero? Possibly sell him? Wonder what he would be worth and who would possibly buy him? I think AvG's true calling would have been in Saddlebreds and saddleseat. I can sooooooo see her there - and I mean that in a good way. For dressage - it breaks my heart. It truly does.

:lol:

Salinero is improved over the last Games, which was a joke, but he always looks tense.

grayarabpony
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:22 PM
Thanks for the link Minaret.

carolprudm
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:28 PM
So someone else posted that not saluting the judges at the beginning and end = elimination. Did they make that up?

I haven't read all the thread so perhaps someone else has answered. I have a PDF of the FEI rules and on page 56 it says that the halt and salute at the beginning and end are compulsory but does not specify the penalty for not performing them.

The judges would have needed binoculars to see the halt at the beginning which on my 50+ inch flat screen looked quite crooked and no where near 5 seconds. Both halts are supposed to be averaged for mark #16. Darned if I can figure that one out.

grayarabs
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:36 PM
A lot of those horses are "hot" and were scared. But didn't they all halt where required?
Surely there has to be a way to get a nice halt out of Salinero at the end of the tests.
Is one of the explanations for his lack of halting is his anticipation of the crowd cheering?
So that would be considered a "conditioned response". Ooh - maybe Anky needs to do a little clicker training!!!! Well at least come up with some way for him to be rewarded for halting - make it pleasurable for him. Not only for scores etc but for his brain - a kind of cue to relax.
Also I am remembering reading last year all the discussion about "happy" horses.
What happened with that? Wasn't that going to be a big deal? In HK - which horses appeared happy to be doing the work - and which ones obviously not?

Mardi
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:38 PM
I'd love to see that in Dutch. Because what she said was "Ik ben helemaal vergeten af te groeten naar de jury," which translated means "I completely forgot to salute the judges."

OK, fair enough. I was not aware that she said that. It wasn't included in the Anky quote that was posted earlier.

However, from what I understood from the same quote, she purposely omitted the halt, because she knew she had won.

Is that correct ?

dressagetraks
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:39 PM
Edited to Add: The FEI Rules
Article 430

10. Salute.
Competitors must take the reins in one hand at the salute.

14. Beginning/End of test.
A test begins with the entry at A and ends after
the salute at the end of the test, as soon as the horse moves forward.

12. Leaving arena during competition.
A horse leaving the arena
completely, with all four feet, during a dressage competition between the time
of entry and the time of exit at A, will be eliminated.

16. Details to the Freestyle Test
At the beginning and end of a Freestyle Test a halt for the salute is
compulsory. The test time will start after the rider moves forward after the
halt.

Reading the rules together, she should have been eliminated. A halt "for the salute" is compulsory in the freestyle at the end of the test. The test does not end until "after" the final salute, so technically she did not finish her test because she never saluted. And of course, "A horse leaving the arena completely, with all four feet, during a dressage competition between the time of entry and the time of exit at A, will be eliminated."

Here is the FEI definition of a salute, which Anky clearly (and by her own admission) did not do. Thus the test, clearly defined as ending when the horse moves forward after the salute, did not in fact end. Thus Anky, leaving the ring at A, left the ring before the test was over. Nearest equivalent I can think of in other sports is failing to touch home plate in your base running after hitting a home run. Sorry, if that is defined as the end of your base running (test), no matter why you didn't touch home plate (excited, just "forgot," whatever), you did not officially end your lap of the bases.

The paragraph where she knew she had already won and decided regarding the final movement, "Oh, he doesn't really have to do this," is from COTH own dressage coverage, link on COTH homepage.

Waving at the audience is not a salute to the judges.

And I still think saying, "Oh, he doesn't really have to do this," has no place in the concept of dressage training.

Sabine
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:47 PM
why is it that ANY Anky thread immediately attracts the most sour, bitter, rejected- but know-it-all arm chair dressage queens???????

Could it be that she is really just the total opposite of those folks....pretty, succesful, competent, wealthy, genuine and HUMAN!

Be it that she forgot to salute, Sal didn't stand still for 10 minutes, she didn't do 100 flying changes in the victory round, she held too much, she leaned back too much, she creates tension in the horse, the horse is ALWAYS tense, etc....its all really bad and she won the gold and we are dressage riders and now we are all so very distraught about it....complete insanity-if you ask me!

Coreene
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:56 PM
OK, fair enough. I was not aware that she said that. It wasn't included in the Anky quote that was posted earlier.

However, from what I understood from the same quote, she purposely omitted the halt, because she knew she had won.

Is that correct ?No, absolutely not. She said "Toen ik de ring ik reed viel er toch wel spanning van me af. Toen wist ik dat ik het kon. Ik ben helemaal vergeten af te groeten naar de jury. Ik zat al te juichen op mijn paard. Ik dacht, ja hoor, het is binnen.'' Which translates to "When I rode into the ring, the stress dropped. Then I understand that I could do it. I completely forgot to salute the jury at the end. I was already crying with joy. I thought, yes, that should do it."

Forgetting is different from intentional, ya know?

And if Debbie had medaled with the same halt, she would have been elevated to sainthood. Same with Isabell, same with Steffen, etc.

Coral
Aug. 21, 2008, 04:59 PM
No, absolutely not. She said "Toen ik de ring ik reed viel er toch wel spanning van me af. Toen wist ik dat ik het kon. Ik ben helemaal vergeten af te groeten naar de jury. Ik zat al te juichen op mijn paard. Ik dacht, ja hoor, het is binnen.'' Which translates to "When I rode into the ring, the stress dropped. Then I understand that I could do it. I completely forgot to salute the jury at the end. I was already crying with joy. I thought, yes, that should do it."


Translation really makes all the difference, huh? Subtle nuances turn an innocent statement of excitement into an arrogant statement of challenge.

Coreene
Aug. 21, 2008, 05:05 PM
Translation really makes all the difference, huh? Subtle nuances turn an innocent statement of excitement into an arrogant statement of challenge.Which is why I asked where she had said she had left it out intentionally. Because in every Dutch paper I read and interviews I saw online (in Dutch), she never said she left it out intentionally.

http://www.brabantsdagblad.nl/sport/peking/3585816/Anky-van-Grunsven-gelukkig-en-opgelucht.ece

dressagetraks
Aug. 21, 2008, 05:45 PM
No, actually, if Isabell, or Debbie, or Steffen, or Nicole Uphoff, or Reiner Klimke totally failed to salute for whatever reason (including forgetfulness) at the end of a test, I would also feel equally that they had shown disrespect to the judges and believe that they also merited disqualification, since that is the defined end point of the test.

To take it further, if I myself ever fail to salute at the end of a test all the way from training level clear up through Olympics for whatever reason, including incredible joy at winning a gold medal, I believe that I should be disqualified.

And if I ever do make it to the Olympics, COTH is welcome to hold me to that. Or to a regional championship, or to any show whatsoever, including schooling shows, at any level at which I show.

My objection is based on a rule and also, as Mardi said, on the reasoning and respect behind that rule. You should always show respect to the judges, whether you agree with them or not, whether you are too excited, too stressed out, or already know you won. It doesn't matter your emotional state. You should always end a test by saluting the judges. And the rule book agrees with that statement.

grayarabpony
Aug. 21, 2008, 06:34 PM
why is it that ANY Anky thread immediately attracts the most sour, bitter, rejected- but know-it-all arm chair dressage queens???????

Could it be that she is really just the total opposite of those folks....pretty, succesful, competent, wealthy, genuine and HUMAN!

Be it that she forgot to salute, Sal didn't stand still for 10 minutes, she didn't do 100 flying changes in the victory round, she held too much, she leaned back too much, she creates tension in the horse, the horse is ALWAYS tense, etc....its all really bad and she won the gold and we are dressage riders and now we are all so very distraught about it....complete insanity-if you ask me!

This is the second time I've described one of your posts this way: What a bitchy post. So you're saying that everyone who didn't like Anky tests are ugly, unsuccessful, incompetent, poor, false and alien? :lol:

It could just be that some think Salinero looks tense because he IS tense.

If you don't like that opinion, fine. But I am sick of people on this board who attack others who don't agree with them.

Ambrey
Aug. 21, 2008, 07:01 PM
And if Debbie had medaled with the same halt, she would have been elevated to sainthood. Same with Isabell, same with Steffen, etc.

But Anky never does a clean halt at the end.

Which begs the question... why are we still surprised when she wins without a halt? Obviously the only people who care about the halt are here posting, not sitting in judge's booths.

No, if Isabell had won with the hissy fit AND no halt, there would have been MASS HYSTERIA!

Coreene
Aug. 21, 2008, 07:23 PM
But Anky never does a clean halt at the end.Well, that's a big sweeping generalization. She does show more than one horse. Sallie doesn't always have a fab halt, but "never" is also not true.

freestyle2music
Aug. 21, 2008, 07:29 PM
But Anky never does a clean halt at the end.

Which begs the question... why are we still surprised when she wins without a halt? Obviously the only people who care about the halt are here posting, not sitting in judge's booths.

No, if Isabell had won with the hissy fit AND no halt, there would have been MASS HYSTERIA!

First: The halt in the freestyle never had a mark untill the rules (on request of the Germans) were changed a few years ago. Second: Anky scored very high marks for her initial halt at the beginning of the test. Third: It wasn't difficult to see that Anky already scored much higher than Isabell did.

I remember a guy from the Bahamas (?) running backwards at the last 10 meters of the 100 meters during the athletics.

Equibrit
Aug. 21, 2008, 07:31 PM
Maybe [Theo] can come up with a freestyle to Judy Garland show tunes for Anky, and she can mysteriously get Sadinero to halt. They will live happily ever after in Never Never land and we can all prostrate ourselves on the altar of "Show Dressage".

It's such an honour to just take part!


K?

freestyle2music
Aug. 21, 2008, 07:37 PM
No, actually, if Isabell, or Debbie, or Steffen, or Nicole Uphoff, or Reiner Klimke totally failed to salute for whatever reason (including forgetfulness) at the end of a test, I would also feel equally that they had shown disrespect to the judges and believe that they also merited disqualification, since that is the defined end point of the test.

To take it further, if I myself ever fail to salute at the end of a test all the way from training level clear up through Olympics for whatever reason, including incredible joy at winning a gold medal, I believe that I should be disqualified.

And if I ever do make it to the Olympics, COTH is welcome to hold me to that. Or to a regional championship, or to any show whatsoever, including schooling shows, at any level at which I show.

My objection is based on a rule and also, as Mardi said, on the reasoning and respect behind that rule. You should always show respect to the judges, whether you agree with them or not, whether you are too excited, too stressed out, or already know you won. It doesn't matter your emotional state. You should always end a test by saluting the judges. And the rule book agrees with that statement.

Gggggggggggg grow up; in the time when Klimke or Nicole rode a freestyle to music the halt wasn't even scored.

canticle
Aug. 21, 2008, 08:05 PM
Why is it so hard for Olympians to halt their horses? In the U.S., even beginners can stop. Is something lost on the way to the top?

Mardi
Aug. 21, 2008, 08:47 PM
No, absolutely not. She said "Toen ik de ring ik reed viel er toch wel spanning van me af. Toen wist ik dat ik het kon. Ik ben helemaal vergeten af te groeten naar de jury. Ik zat al te juichen op mijn paard. Ik dacht, ja hoor, het is binnen.'' Which translates to "When I rode into the ring, the stress dropped. Then I understand that I could do it. I completely forgot to salute the jury at the end. I was already crying with joy. I thought, yes, that should do it."

Forgetting is different from intentional, ya know?

.

Yes, I agree.

The quote I was referring to was posted on 8/19 by Dressagetraks, on the "Anyone Watching The Freestyle ?" thread. It went like this:

"Interesting quote on COTH coverage from Anky herself, in light of the above rule cited about halt being required. She admits that Salinero did not halt, says she waited for him to do so and realized he had not halted, but knew that she had already won and thought, 'Oh, he doesn't have to do this.' "

So, she did not say this ? Or she did ?

Moderator 1
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:40 PM
Discuss, disagree, etc., but please avoid the personal commentary directed at other posters and keep it productive.

Thanks,
Mod 1

nero
Aug. 21, 2008, 10:42 PM
Nero - I don't need any education to know what I'm seeing. And the great thing about youtube is that it not only has videos of competition - it also has videos of WARMUPS. And the horrid riding in the warmups isn't justified for what happens later in the ring. And of all the riders at FEI - she's the only one I wouldn't even want to meet. So many others are approachable and show a great enjoyment when riding - IMO - she never does. It always looks stressed, strained and PUSHED.


OK, so here's some additions to your education. Tests with Anky's horses halting. So you can SEE what you are claiming (that none of Anky's horses halt) is actually wrong.

Painted Black http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKWcpYKH_cg

Krack C http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKFzUxB_gDI not square in first halt, but square at the end of the test

Bonfire http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt6kGv-3xNc&feature=related

Nelson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGsbyyjnHRk

Partout http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUGZ6mjKrHo

Please watch these and THEN tell me none of her horses halt.

Mardi
Aug. 22, 2008, 12:44 AM
So there is no misunderstanding, here is the excert from the COTH coverage of Anky's freestyle. This is from an article on the COTH home page.

"The only low scores she received were for her last halt, which came shortly after her last piaffe, and Salinero never stopped moving his feet. Van Grunsven had already ridden that last piaffe with a huge smile, and although she waited a moment for him to halt, in the end she just dropped her reins and wrapped her arms around his neck, knowing she’d already won. “I thought, ‘oh, he doesn’t have to do this,’” she recalled with a laugh. Her scores for the entrance and final halts ranged from 5 to 7."

Sabine
Aug. 22, 2008, 01:45 AM
it's become like pushing buttons...those that feel attacked will drop their mask and reveal themselves...and really it has truly nothing to do with good dressage!! or how to ride a halt !!
It sadly has everything to do with good conduct, ethics and proper behavior...( and this is solely pointed at this thread and the comments made in regards to Anky's lack of training or riding capacity).

grinnin from ear to ear and saluting Anky = one more time!! Prost Anky- you're a tough lady, mother and wife- and I salute you for doing the best you can- over and over again...more than a lot of us- me included can say for themselves!!

Go Anky and Congrats to your 3rd Gold Medal...wayy to go dear lady!!

nero
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:30 AM
This is the second time I've described one of your posts this way: What a bitchy post. So you're saying that everyone who didn't like Anky tests are ugly, unsuccessful, incompetent, poor, false and alien? :lol:

It could just be that some think Salinero looks tense because he IS tense.

If you don't like that opinion, fine. But I am sick of people on this board who attack others who don't agree with them.

And I'm so sick of people who attack a public figure incessantly too.

I think its more that some people here (i.e me and possibly Sabine - can't speak for her) actually find it more rude to continually attack a high profile rider when they (the poster) are either just bitter or misinformed or decide they must oppose all she is and has achieved because they don't like a few photos on the internet. To me THAT is bitchy.

I find that sort of attack, and it has been going on for at least six years now, really distasteful - its anonymous, gutless ( I mean it's no secret her website, why don't all those continually discrediting her send her an email instead of hiding behind here) and so, so pointless. What Sabine wrote wasn't that bad, toughen up - if the shoe fits....if it doesn't then it wasn't directed at you anyway, so no sweat!!

In the meantime I'm just so happy she won. She deserves it, and the horse deserves to be up there with the greats as well. Well done, if only her achievements could be more universally appreciated.

BTW I find that Salinero is not tense, he's hot and excitable, a positive energy, not a negative one - so you say tomato and and I say tomato I guess

Bats79
Aug. 22, 2008, 03:14 AM
And I think that it is "garbage talking" that says not liking the way Anky trains or rides or the way Salinero goes is an "Attack on Anky".

Anky puts herself out in the arena like an artist puts their art on display.

I don't like this. I don't like that the judges like this. I think this judging is crap. I think that this training is crap. I think the judges are one eyed and the other has Anky written on it.

These statements are NOT ATTACKING ANKY.

It might be attacking what she does but ask Anky if she would prefer to be judged only in front of judges (no spectators) or if she would rather the publicity and notoriety that goes with being judged in front of her peers (and the rest of the smelly public). I bet she'd rather have us with our disagreements, bitching, arguing, pointing, sneering, laughing and loving than a sterile judging environment.

Therefore I don't care if you don't like what I say. :) Blah.

Above post must be read quickly to cause tongue tie.

grayarabpony
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:25 AM
And I'm so sick of people who attack a public figure incessantly too.

I think its more that some people here (i.e me and possibly Sabine - can't speak for her) actually find it more rude to continually attack a high profile rider when they (the poster) are either just bitter or misinformed or decide they must oppose all she is and has achieved because they don't like a few photos on the internet. To me THAT is bitchy.

I find that sort of attack, and it has been going on for at least six years now, really distasteful - its anonymous, gutless ( I mean it's no secret her website, why don't all those continually discrediting her send her an email instead of hiding behind here) and so, so pointless. What Sabine wrote wasn't that bad, toughen up - if the shoe fits....if it doesn't then it wasn't directed at you anyway, so no sweat!!

In the meantime I'm just so happy she won. She deserves it, and the horse deserves to be up there with the greats as well. Well done, if only her achievements could be more universally appreciated.

BTW I find that Salinero is not tense, he's hot and excitable, a positive energy, not a negative one - so you say tomato and and I say tomato I guess

I wondered when my post would bring out the rotten tomatoes.

How do you know that anyone is criticizing Anky based on a few photos? You're way off base about most people who don't think Anky deserves the high scores that she gets.

What Sabine wrote WAS very bad -- talk about gutless, bitter and misinformed. :rolleyes:

If you think that Anky epitomizes the best of dressage and cannot recognize tension in a horse, I find that sad. I think she deserved the gold in Syndey but that's it.

grayarabpony
Aug. 22, 2008, 10:30 AM
it's become like pushing buttons...those that feel attacked will drop their mask and reveal themselves...and really it has truly nothing to do with good dressage!! or how to ride a halt !!
It sadly has everything to do with good conduct, ethics and proper behavior...( and this is solely pointed at this thread and the comments made in regards to Anky's lack of training or riding capacity).



Yes Sabine, you've certainly revealed yourself.

My own critiques of Anky's riding have everything to do dressage, and nothing else.

BahamaMama
Aug. 22, 2008, 02:28 PM
I have the same problem with my Ferrari as Anky has with Salinero.

But at the end i allways win

Touchstone Farm
Aug. 22, 2008, 11:01 PM
So her decision to blow the halt in order to keep him happy for the other movements was probably heavily discussed and it was decided to blow those 2 scores.

It was the last movement of the test, so...what other movements were left? Woo-hooing to the crowd?! :-)

flshgordon
Aug. 23, 2008, 01:12 AM
No, absolutely not. She said "Toen ik de ring ik reed viel er toch wel spanning van me af. Toen wist ik dat ik het kon. Ik ben helemaal vergeten af te groeten naar de jury. Ik zat al te juichen op mijn paard. Ik dacht, ja hoor, het is binnen.'' Which translates to "When I rode into the ring, the stress dropped. Then I understand that I could do it. I completely forgot to salute the jury at the end. I was already crying with joy. I thought, yes, that should do it." .

One of the top dressage riders in the world just "oops" forgot to halt and salute at the end of the freakin olympics?? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

what a crock....at least she should be honest and say "I knew I won and I didn't give a crap that my horse can't perform the most basic of all dressage skills"

AiryFairy
Aug. 23, 2008, 08:03 AM
These are the individual scores for movements:
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C77D/EQX001100.shtml#EQX001101
and according to the pdf that I downloaded from the FEI, if that is the correct freestyle test, #16 is for the walk. She got 5, 6's and 7's on her nonexistent halts. Pretty generous, IMO, for something that wasn't performed.



One of the top dressage riders in the world just "oops" forgot to halt and salute at the end of the freakin olympics?? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

what a crock....at least she should be honest and say "I knew I won and I didn't give a crap that my horse can't perform the most basic of all dressage skills"

Hazelnut
Aug. 23, 2008, 08:18 AM
Salinero is a spitfire that a lot of us amateurs couldn't possibly ride. I humbly bow down to Anky and her ability. That is some horse. So her decision to blow the halt in order to keep him happy for the other movements was probably heavily discussed and it was decided to blow those 2 scores.
Does it prove that the horse isn't harmonious and listen to its rider? Yeah, probably. But dressage seems to be going the way of artsy-fartsy rather than harmonious communication between horse and rider. Like when ice skating removed the compulsaries. It has now morphed itself into a show of stage presence.

I agree with the first half that to get the expression, instead of explosion...maybe she does't choose to push the halt. Every rider makes compromises. I ride a horse that forgives a thousand tiny mistake over and over - I don't think that's the kind of horse Anky VG rides. And maybe this is just HIS weakness - every horse has one.

DownYonder
Aug. 23, 2008, 08:24 AM
These are the individual scores for movements:
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C77D/EQX001100.shtml#EQX001101
and according to the pdf that I downloaded from the FEI, if that is the correct freestyle test, #16 is for the walk. She got 5, 6's and 7's on her nonexistent halts. Pretty generous, IMO, for something that wasn't performed.

No, #16 is for "The entrance and halts at the beginning and the end of the test". They give one score for the entrance, the first halt and the last halt. AVG got 5,7,6,6,7 for #16. The Danish judge at E was the only one to ding her hard for the non-halt at the end, giving her a 5. The Japanese judge at H and the Dutch judge at B were the most generous, giving her 7s. They probably would have given her 9s if she had made any semblance of a halt at the end.

SapeloApp
Aug. 23, 2008, 08:31 AM
Geez, I just once again watched the NBC version of Anky's ride. Perhaps it's a different version from most of yours. While I did not see a salute at the end of the ride, the NBC version of Anky's ride shows a decided halt. Not a gorgeous-wonderful-wowwy halt, but a definite halt. About a 6 halt. So I have to question how many of posters on here dissing Anky for not doing the most basic of dressage skills have actually watched the entire ride?

Candace

freestyle2music
Aug. 23, 2008, 08:40 AM
No, #16 is for "The entrance and halts at the beginning and the end of the test". They give one score for the entrance, the first halt and the last halt. AVG got 5,7,6,6,7 for #16. The Danish judge at E was the only one to ding her hard for the non-halt at the end, giving her a 5. The Japanese judge at H and the Dutch judge at B were the most generous, giving her 7s. They probably would have given her 9s if she had made any semblance of a halt at the end.

Since you don't know how this marks are assembled you can't say what the scores of the judges were, untill you see the handwritten protocol of the judges. Do you ? Posted on the link given is the combined score of the entrance, halt at the beginning, and halt at the end.
So the 5 could be 7,8,0 or any other score which adds up to 15.

Look at the videos again and watch how much horses had a very bad halt. (like front legs on the centre-line and hind legs 1 meter from the centerline or vice versa).

But like we say in Holland : Hoge bomen vangen veel wind, en de druiven zijn zuur.


Theo

DownYonder
Aug. 23, 2008, 08:56 AM
No, I don't have the judges' handwritten protocols. However, if the Danish judge HAD given her 7,8,0 for #16, then he did ding her hard for the non-halt at the end. I would have given it a 0 - the horse never stopped moving his feet, he was never immobile, and there was no salute. Movement not performed = 0.

AiryFairy
Aug. 23, 2008, 09:20 AM
Since both of her halts were barely performed, I think a combined score of 7 (from the Dutch judge) was a bit much... The other horses may have been crooked or not square, which would have been marked down, but at least they halted and performed the movement.


Since you don't know how this marks are assembled you can't say what the scores of the judges were, untill you see the handwritten protocol of the judges. Do you ? Posted on the link given is the combined score of the entrance, halt at the beginning, and halt at the end.
So the 5 could be 7,8,0 or any other score which adds up to 15.

Look at the videos again and watch how much horses had a very bad halt. (like front legs on the centre-line and hind legs 1 meter from the centerline or vice versa).

But like we say in Holland : Hoge bomen vangen veel wind, en de druiven zijn zuur.


Theo

freestyle2music
Aug. 23, 2008, 09:28 AM
No, I don't have the judges' handwritten protocols. However, if the Danish judge HAD given her 7,8,0 for #16, then he did ding her hard for the non-halt at the end. I would have given it a 0 - the horse never stopped moving his feet, he was never immobile, and there was no salute. Movement not performed = 0.

Thats what I said , please READ

DownYonder
Aug. 23, 2008, 09:39 AM
Thats what I said , please READ

Theo, we are saying the same thing. Don't get so wound up. ;)

And I agree that many of the other horses had poor halts. But at least they halted.

BahamaMama
Aug. 23, 2008, 10:03 AM
Maybee Anky & Salinero did'not want to salut the German judge, because he robbed Steffen Peters from an Olympic Medal ;)

seeuatx
Aug. 23, 2008, 11:08 AM
An Olympic gymnist doesn't win the gold when he fails to stick the dismount and falls on his face, regardless how many flips he perfectly executed 45 seconds earlier.

I don't know that I would qualify a not completely immobile halt as falling flat on their face. Maybe more like a big step. And yes a Gymnast can win with a big step. Under the new system I am confused, but I will explain with the old system. A vault has a start value (now gets a separate difficulty score). The hardest vaults get a start value of 10. That vault will also be the hardest to stick the landing on (and not over/ under rotate, separate legs, forget to point toes, etc). So if the rest of the vault is perfect, a big step receives a .3 deduction. So a 10 becomes a 9.7... generally still medal contention. Now, if every other gymnast comes in and plays it safe to technical perfection, but lesser difficulty (say 9.5- 9.7 start values) the gymnast with the 10 start value now has the gold. Tah-dah.

So yeah, those perfect steps that come between the start and stop of the vault routine.... they count for something. And remember that our perfect little American team won their medal after all 4 had big steps on the vault, 3 stepped out of bounds on floor, 2 big steps and 1 step out on landing from bars, and one fell from the beam. And we still got silver.

Now back to dressage, I've had rides with an 8+ halt and the rest of the test sucked.... no ribbon. Had ride where I did not obsess about the halt... rest of the test was great... got great scores. Some horses you can force the halt issue, others it blows their entire groove. Beeeeewaaaaare the Groooooove.

Sabine
Aug. 23, 2008, 11:35 AM
Maybee Anky & Salinero did'not want to salut the German judge, because he robbed Steffen Peters from an Olympic Medal ;)

Finally someone with good humor...!!

ToN Farm
Aug. 23, 2008, 12:02 PM
Why is it that ANY Anky thread immediately attracts the most sour, bitter, rejected- but know-it-all arm chair dressage queens???????

Could it be that she is really just the total opposite of those folks....pretty, succesful, competent, wealthy, genuine and HUMAN!Yes, I think that would apply to many of them. Whether they will admit it to themselves, is another thing. I do think that you will find that riders that compete at FEI and own quality horses do appreciate Anky's riding and would not criticize the absence of a halt.

If I disliked something as much as some of you dislike Anky's riding, I would not bother to watch her ride. Why do you? Why do you spend time watching and re-watching her videos to pick out faults so that you can go to a bulletin board and ridicule?

I am in awe of Anky.....her beauty, her riding, her smile......everything!

grayarabpony
Aug. 23, 2008, 12:10 PM
Yes, I think that would apply to many of them. Whether they will admit it to themselves, is another thing. I do think that you will find that riders that compete at FEI and own quality horses do appreciate Anky's riding and would not criticize the absence of a halt.

If I disliked something as much as some of you dislike Anky's riding, I would not bother to watch her ride. Why do you? Why do you spend time watching and re-watching her videos to pick out faults so that you can go to a bulletin board and ridicule?

I am in awe of Anky.....her beauty, her riding, her smile......everything!

What I would like to know is why some people need to worship at an altar and can't think critically for themselves.

slc2
Aug. 23, 2008, 12:18 PM
What amazes me is why people have to EITHER WORSHIP OR HATE the topriders. Neither is productive, healthy, good sportsmanship, or will develop or improve anyone's knowledge or ability.

This one is kind, that one is mean, this one is good, this one is bad, it's all nonsense. Based on something you read in an article or saw on tv of the person for a split second of their life.

Everyone has good and bad points, everyone is a mixture of different things.

Come on, they are just people. They work hard, they practice, they qualify for the Olympics, they go there, they ride, it's a horse show.

This kind of thing doesn't educate people or give them a better eye. It represents the worst side of us, the side that worst of all, judges people's intentions, but also their worth, morals, attitudes, ethics from a few random actions during a few seconds, without knowing anything about them. That is, without any doubt in my mind, the worst part of us, and the worst part of clique and crowd psychology, which emboldens people to attack others just like being in a pack affects dogs.

THe comments are all over the place, no one here can agree about what was good or bad, this one loved that pirouette, the other hated it...and nearly all the comments on the freestyle wind up to 'I don't like that type of music' which is not the point of the freestyle.

And no matter how you talk about a top rider, negative or positive, it still doesn't make you a part of some 'in crowd'. Which is I think what all this is wishing for.

fiona
Aug. 23, 2008, 12:21 PM
What I would like to know is why some people need to worship at an altar and can't think critically for themselves.

And the people jumping on the bandwagon of hate are doing what, exactly?

grayarabpony
Aug. 23, 2008, 12:23 PM
Who said anything about a bandwagon of hate, except for Anky fans? How stupid.

BahamaMama
Aug. 23, 2008, 01:12 PM
What amazes me is why people have to EITHER WORSHIP OR HATE the topriders. Neither is productive, healthy, good sportsmanship, or will develop or improve anyone's knowledge or ability.

This one is kind, that one is mean, this one is good, this one is bad, it's all nonsense. Based on something you read in an article or saw on tv of the person for a split second of their life.

Everyone has good and bad points, everyone is a mixture of different things.

Come on, they are just people. They work hard, they practice, they qualify for the Olympics, they go there, they ride, it's a horse show.

This kind of thing doesn't educate people or give them a better eye. It represents the worst side of us, the side that worst of all, judges people's intentions, but also their worth, morals, attitudes, ethics from a few random actions during a few seconds, without knowing anything about them. That is, without any doubt in my mind, the worst part of us, and the worst part of clique and crowd psychology, which emboldens people to attack others just like being in a pack affects dogs.

THe comments are all over the place, no one here can agree about what was good or bad, this one loved that pirouette, the other hated it...and nearly all the comments on the freestyle wind up to 'I don't like that type of music' which is not the point of the freestyle.

And no matter how you talk about a top rider, negative or positive, it still doesn't make you a part of some 'in crowd'. Which is I think what all this is wishing for.

SLC2

You sound like a very wise human being :yes::yes: but isnt it pearls for the swines

ToN Farm
Aug. 23, 2008, 02:27 PM
What I would like to know is why some people need to worship at an altar and can't think critically for themselves.
Pardon me for being dumb, but I truly don't understand what that means, or if was meant for me.

For the record, I don't worship anyone or anything. I just happen to like the modern dressage riders and they way the horses move. Of course I see mistakes; I'm not blind.

If there is any group falling into the worship category, it is the bunch that are peeing their pampers playing that dusty video of Klimke over and over.

Beverley
Aug. 23, 2008, 02:27 PM
What amazes me is why people have to EITHER WORSHIP OR HATE the topriders. Neither is productive, healthy, good sportsmanship, or will develop or improve anyone's knowledge or ability.



Some of us don't have a dog in the fight and don't really have strong feelings about any particular riders.

But, having been taught only classical dressage, not competitive dressage, we just worry in general about the loss of the horsemanship- the basic truisms about training a horse for 'any' discipline. I think you mentioned in an early post asking for a 'little bit' of piaffe at age 5 or 6. The notion is utterly wrong based on what I was taught. You don't ask for things until a horse is physically and mentally ready. And it really does take years of conditioning for a horse to have the right musculature for more complex movements. At all levels of dressage, all I see is people cramming a horse in a frame, front to back, and cranking around in that frame for hours on end. So yes, I bemoan the decreasing quality of the horsemanship- not just in dressage, though. People see what others are doing and copy it, without knowing what's really involved. And you end up with a lot of upper level horses who do not look like they are happy to be there.

As you point out, it's fundamentally just a horse show, so people do what it takes to win at the show- a pretty universal thing. Some of us think it's a shame, given the beauty of classical dressage.

STF
Aug. 23, 2008, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by slc2 http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3467003#post3467003)
What amazes me is why people have to EITHER WORSHIP OR HATE the topriders. Neither is productive, healthy, good sportsmanship, or will develop or improve anyone's knowledge or ability.



And then there are some of us who just dont care.......... :lol:

slc2
Aug. 23, 2008, 02:50 PM
"Some of us were only taught classical dressage, not competitive dressage"

How arrogant and how 'I'm better than you' can you get?

There is no such two different things. There is just dressage.

"Some of us don't care".

That is probably a more rational state of mind.

AiryFairy
Aug. 23, 2008, 03:25 PM
Exactly....and if you look around at a lot of the lower level shows, you'll see people copying Anky's Rollkur "crank and yank and stand on the curb" method, you'll see a lot of horses broken at the poll and curled behind the bit, never even coming close to being on the bit, because according to the Queen of Dressage, that's the right way to train them. So where are the judges who actually know what a correct frame is?


Some of us don't have a dog in the fight and don't really have strong feelings about any particular riders.

But, having been taught only classical dressage, not competitive dressage, we just worry in general about the loss of the horsemanship- the basic truisms about training a horse for 'any' discipline. I think you mentioned in an early post asking for a 'little bit' of piaffe at age 5 or 6. The notion is utterly wrong based on what I was taught. You don't ask for things until a horse is physically and mentally ready. And it really does take years of conditioning for a horse to have the right musculature for more complex movements. At all levels of dressage, all I see is people cramming a horse in a frame, front to back, and cranking around in that frame for hours on end. So yes, I bemoan the decreasing quality of the horsemanship- not just in dressage, though. People see what others are doing and copy it, without knowing what's really involved. And you end up with a lot of upper level horses who do not look like they are happy to be there.

As you point out, it's fundamentally just a horse show, so people do what it takes to win at the show- a pretty universal thing. Some of us think it's a shame, given the beauty of classical dressage.

canticle
Aug. 23, 2008, 04:28 PM
"Some of us were only taught classical dressage, not competitive dressage"

How arrogant and how 'I'm better than you' can you get?

There is no such two different things. There is just dressage.
Sjef would disagree!

Roan
Aug. 23, 2008, 05:03 PM
"Some of us were only taught classical dressage, not competitive dressage"

How arrogant and how 'I'm better than you' can you get?

There is no such two different things. There is just dressage.

. . .

Slc? Washington just called. Apparently your visa is being revoked and they are expecting you to board the next shuttle back to Planet X.

Eileen

freestyle2music
Aug. 23, 2008, 06:46 PM
Pardon me for being dumb, but I truly don't understand what that means, or if was meant for me.

For the record, I don't worship anyone or anything. I just happen to like the modern dressage riders and they way the horses move. Of course I see mistakes; I'm not blind.

If there is any group falling into the worship category, it is the bunch that are peeing their pampers playing that dusty video of Klimke over and over.

And they also jump on their soapbox proclaiming that this was the best ride they ever saw, while Reiner himself stated that it was one of his worst rides.

But I have to admit the Halt of this ride was a 10.:cool:

~Freedom~
Aug. 23, 2008, 09:12 PM
Slc? Washington just called. Apparently your visa is being revoked and they are expecting you to board the next shuttle back to Planet X.

Eileen



http://www.movie-list.com/onvideo-ca/shop.php?c=1&n=967000&i=B0000542CN&x=Man_from_Planet_X_Full_Screen

Beverley
Aug. 23, 2008, 11:49 PM
"Some of us were only taught classical dressage, not competitive dressage"

How arrogant and how 'I'm better than you' can you get?

There is no such two different things. There is just dressage.



Name calling doesn't become you. No arrogance involved, just callin' a spade a spade. And no, what is winning in arenas at all levels these days does not come close to passing for REAL dressage, if you prefer that adjective.

If you held up any of a bunch of examples during the Olympics to, say, the late Col Lundquist, (or instructors from Saumur you've never heard of) and told him/them that was REAL dressage- you probably wouldn't like the response.:cool:

Sabine
Aug. 24, 2008, 12:12 AM
Name calling doesn't become you. No arrogance involved, just callin' a spade a spade. And no, what is winning in arenas at all levels these days does not come close to passing for REAL dressage, if you prefer that adjective.

If you held up any of a bunch of examples during the Olympics to, say, the late Col Lundquist, (or instructors from Saumur you've never heard of) and told him/them that was REAL dressage- you probably wouldn't like the response.:cool:

I really believe that classical dressage is the foundation of all dressage. I just also believe and know(having watched enough top level riders) that they don't take as long to get the basics done and then move on to the 'new land' the land where the horse is really challenged and pushed and becomes a flamboyant dancer- .
You can confidently say- that if a horse in today's performance environment doesn't have at least 3 or 4 FABULOUS movements in store- it won't score in the top 5. That's just the reality of where the sport has gone. Mind you all this HAS TO BE delivered in an eye-pleasing, elegant fashion. The stuff that happened with Satchmo is NOT ok. Spoke to quite a few german friends and they all thought that that was unheard of...

Of course the ODG's will not consider this dressage- but that is more because THEY didn't come up with it in their time-- it's just the natural development of any sport. Look at swimming, diving, gymnastics and compare videos from the 84 Olympics with todays'...no comparison...we're talking today triples are the standard- then they were the exception and so on...change is inevitable and a sign of the natural balance of life. We don't stay in the same place- although we all would love to at times...;)

Sabine
Aug. 24, 2008, 12:15 AM
Pardon me for being dumb, but I truly don't understand what that means, or if was meant for me.

For the record, I don't worship anyone or anything. I just happen to like the modern dressage riders and they way the horses move. Of course I see mistakes; I'm not blind.

If there is any group falling into the worship category, it is the bunch that are peeing their pampers playing that dusty video of Klimke over and over.

Lov' ya ToN for that one- I almost pee'd my pants and I don't have pampers...LOL!

Mardi
Aug. 24, 2008, 01:02 AM
[QUOTE=seeuatx;3466898]
Some horses you can force the halt issue, others it blows their entire groove. QUOTE]


Why would you have to "force the halt issue" on any well started, well schooled, and well ridden horse ?

ise@ssl
Aug. 24, 2008, 09:57 AM
This is so ridiculous to have a debate about removing the halt from any level of Dressage. Stopping a horse is a BASIC in riding and training - not an option. I always feel this is like someone saying - well we can do most of the movements and get really high scores so phooey on the ones we can't do. Sort of a "thumb the nose" to not only the show and the judges but to the other competitors as well.

slc2
Aug. 24, 2008, 10:39 AM
And if you had a horse that could for years win everything there is to win in dressage, and win you 3 gold medals at the Olympics but didn't halt so good when a stadium of people out there were screaming their heads off, and the halt didn't have a coefficient, you'd be screaming like mad for the other side of the debate, ROFLMAO.

DownYonder
Aug. 24, 2008, 10:48 AM
This is so ridiculous to have a debate about removing the halt from any level of Dressage. Stopping a horse is a BASIC in riding and training - not an option. I always feel this is like someone saying - well we can do most of the movements and get really high scores so phooey on the ones we can't do. Sort of a "thumb the nose" to not only the show and the judges but to the other competitors as well.

Agree. Anky and Sjef suggested several years ago that the halt be removed from the GP test. FEI declined, so A&S took matters into their own hands. They are thumbing their noses at the FEI and the judges, and the judges are letting them get away with it by continuing to give them Gold medals. We can't put all the blame on A&S - the judges are also complicit in this.

STF
Aug. 24, 2008, 10:50 AM
Ive graduated to "pull up's" and no need for Pampers.
But......... still aint going to waste a ton of mental energy wondering why Anky is or what Sief is saying or not, or what type of toliet paper they are using these days. Nope, but thank ya anyway!

STF
Aug. 24, 2008, 10:51 AM
Agree. Anky and Sjef suggested several years ago that the halt be removed from the GP test. FEI declined, so A&S took matters into their own hands. They are thumbing their noses at the FEI and the judges, and the judges are letting them get away with it by continuing to give them Gold medals. We can't put all the blame on A&S - the judges are also complicit in this.


One day Tami Hoag will write a book about it and we will know the "inside edition".........:lol:

beeblebrox
Aug. 24, 2008, 11:58 AM
"BLBGP

So someone else posted that not saluting the judges at the beginning and end = elimination. Did they make that up?"

At A dressage show at a MUCH lower level on a super green and hotish TB I failed to drop my arm to salute as I was a tad worried about letting go of one rein ;-) SEEING the judges look told me she was ANNOYED and I did drop my arm. MY SCORE THE movement...... 2 and her comment NICE afterthought

freestyle2music
Aug. 24, 2008, 12:40 PM
Agree. Anky and Sjef suggested several years ago that the halt be removed from the GP test. FEI declined, so A&S took matters into their own hands. They are thumbing their noses at the FEI and the judges, and the judges are letting them get away with it by continuing to give them Gold medals. We can't put all the blame on A&S - the judges are also complicit in this.


See what happens when people are posting things that were taking out of it's context. This whole halt/removing thing has been discussed to death, and I really thought that everybody knew by now that Anky told this as a joke. But it seems that most of the posters love typing instead of reading.

grayarabpony
Aug. 24, 2008, 02:27 PM
I really believe that classical dressage is the foundation of all dressage. I just also believe and know(having watched enough top level riders) that they don't take as long to get the basics done and then move on to the 'new land' the land where the horse is really challenged and pushed and becomes a flamboyant dancer- .
You can confidently say- that if a horse in today's performance environment doesn't have at least 3 or 4 FABULOUS movements in store- it won't score in the top 5. That's just the reality of where the sport has gone. Mind you all this HAS TO BE delivered in an eye-pleasing, elegant fashion. The stuff that happened with Satchmo is NOT ok. Spoke to quite a few german friends and they all thought that that was unheard of...

Of course the ODG's will not consider this dressage- but that is more because THEY didn't come up with it in their time-- it's just the natural development of any sport. Look at swimming, diving, gymnastics and compare videos from the 84 Olympics with todays'...no comparison...we're talking today triples are the standard- then they were the exception and so on...change is inevitable and a sign of the natural balance of life. We don't stay in the same place- although we all would love to at times...;)

An inaccurate analogy between dressage and other sports. OK that's an understatement.

canticle
Aug. 24, 2008, 03:03 PM
A dressage rider failing to halt is the equivalent of a figure skater falling on her ass. Is that really the natural development of the sport?

STF
Aug. 24, 2008, 03:33 PM
Halt, smalt............
If it does not move like a glorified Hackney on crack, it aint gona win anyway........... ;)

DownYonder
Aug. 24, 2008, 03:42 PM
See what happens when people are posting things that were taking out of it's context. This whole halt/removing thing has been discussed to death, and I really thought that everybody knew by now that Anky told this as a joke. But it seems that most of the posters love typing instead of reading.

Speak for yourself, Theo. :lol:

Yeah, they may have said it as a jest, but I'm willing to bet cold cash that they have discussed with each other how nice it would be for them if only the halt wasn't in the GP. So Anky was probably at least half serious when she made that public comment.

nero
Aug. 24, 2008, 09:36 PM
An inaccurate analogy between dressage and other sports. OK that's an understatement.

Why? And don't say that its because dressage involves animals, that is missing the point entirely.

Dressage as a SPORT is like other sports. Dressage as an art form, which I think is what the traditionalists are arguing might be less likely to change, can also develop, improve, etc, but with sport the development is about getting stronger, more expressive, fitter, more extreme athletes, that is the nature of competitive sport.

I'd like to ask those criticising the horse's lack of halt something. Some of you are saying its indicative of Sjef and Anky's arrogance, of them thumbing their noses at convention and the judges. Would you then argue, well you'd have to, that a competitor who completely misses a piaffe and extensions or rein back in a lower level test etc is also displaying arrogance? If you feel Anky should have been eliminated for her 'halt' then you also have to argue those missing these compulsory movements be eliminated too. If you don't then you are simply on an Anky witchhunt because you are not being consistent.

canticle
Aug. 24, 2008, 09:46 PM
I'd like to ask those criticisng the horse's lack of halt something, some of you are saying its indicative of Sjef and Anky's arrogance, of them thumbing their nose at convention and the judges. Would you then argue, well you'd have to, that a competitor who completely misses a piaffe and extensions or rein back in a lower level test etc is also displaying arrogance. If you feel Anky should have bee eliminated for her 'halt' then you also have to argue those missing these compulsory movements be eliminated. If you don't then you are simply on an Anky witchhunt because you are not being consistent.
I think Anky is aware of the major hole(s) in her training, and the arrogance is that she doesn't even try to correct them anymore. How come 6 year old beginner riders are able to stop their horses? It really isn't that hard.

MelantheLLC
Aug. 24, 2008, 09:49 PM
Actually I find a nice square forward halt to be rather difficult!

nero
Aug. 24, 2008, 09:53 PM
A dressage rider failing to halt is the equivalent of a figure skater falling on her ass. Is that really the natural development of the sport? Um actually in a sense it is, because in the context of improvng the sport, making it better etc, the ice skater may have fallen because she was attempting a move that no one else had ever done, extending herself, pushing the sport forward, crossing into new uncharted territory and trying something more difficult than her competitors. That is what competitive sport is ALL about. Winning. Being better than the others.

Apply that as you like to the dressage scenario, but pushing the boundaries of the sport in terms of work ethic, electricity, sheer effort and flamboyance and complaince with the high level moves, transistion etc, than Salinero's halt may be a 'acceptable' casualty of that progress and as long as it is marked accordingly why is lack of halt any worse than lack of true extension or lack of a piaffe?

People don't have to like it, as I'm sure Anky doesn't, but I don't think that lack of halt should be elevated to a mortal sin as it seems to have been on this forum.

nero
Aug. 24, 2008, 09:57 PM
I think Anky is aware of the major hole(s) in her training, and the arrogance is that she doesn't even try to correct them anymore. How come 6 year old beginner riders are able to stop their horses? It really isn't that hard. Of course she tries to correct them, she's changed her entire kur design to have the horse walk in so she can achieve the required halt.

If you are basing your assessment on her comments after the Olympic test than it re-read some posts here, it was a case of wrong translation, even so, even if she did say she didn't need to worry in this instance, so what, it was ONCE. I am sure, given her redesign of her kur, that she is very much trying to get the horse to halt all other time.

Anky is SOO not arrogant, that repeated accusation is really just laughable.

Have you read anything about Salinero? He is a horse that no 6 year could ride, he's not a scrubby pony that just loves to stop. Can those six year olds do piaffe to passage transitons for a ten?????

canticle
Aug. 24, 2008, 10:37 PM
Have you read anything about Salinero? He is a horse that no 6 year could ride, he's not a scrubby pony that just loves to stop. Can those six year olds do piaffe to passage transitons for a ten?????
He seems to have some behavior and/or training problems? Maybe that is why the basics are so difficult for him, and why he needs to be ridden in such an extreme way.

Dressage is not about flamboyance. We have saddleseat and big lick for that.

canticle
Aug. 24, 2008, 10:39 PM
People don't have to like it, as I'm sure Anky doesn't, but I don't think that lack of halt should be elevated to a mortal sin as it seems to have been on this forum.
If lack of halt is not a "mortal sin," then what is?

nero
Aug. 24, 2008, 11:00 PM
He seems to have some behavior and/or training problems? Maybe that is why the basics are so difficult for him, and why he needs to be ridden in such an extreme way.

Dressage is not about flamboyance. We have saddleseat and big lick for that.

All else being equal, in terms of correctness, flamboyance and expression are legitimate parts of a dressage sport GP test. Its the point of difference often between two equally trained horses and can be indicative of extra swing and thoughness and suppleness, flamboyance/expression and correct training are not mutually exclusive. And thank god for that, that is why we have horses like Satchmo, Warum Nitch and Salinero, to list but a few.

Do you honestly think that a horses that has training issues and difficulty with basics would have such sweeping and through half passes, such accurate and balanced pirouettes, such extraordinary transitions and such a fabulous piaffe? If so then fine, but I can add nothing to your view of the sport.

nero
Aug. 24, 2008, 11:02 PM
If lack of halt is not a "mortal sin," then what is?

In sport? Um, maybe that judo dude from Cuba who kicked the umpire in the head when he was DQ'd. Even that only invoked a lifetime ban!! :-)

Mardi
Aug. 25, 2008, 12:01 AM
Have you read anything about Salinero? He is a horse that no 6 year could ride, he's not a scrubby pony that just loves to stop. Can those six year olds do piaffe to passage transitons for a ten?????

Depends who the judges are... :)

(kidding !!!!)

canticle
Aug. 25, 2008, 12:14 AM
What exactly do you think an "expressive" horse is expressing?

Sabine
Aug. 25, 2008, 12:56 AM
What exactly do you think an "expressive" horse is expressing?

We have finally hit rock-bottom...let it rest..there is again no solution to this problem...;)!

slc2
Aug. 25, 2008, 07:47 AM
When a horse not stopping sufficiently during a horse back ride, is called a 'mortal sin', this place no longer is having meaningful conversations.

rabicon
Aug. 25, 2008, 10:06 AM
Lets review

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwmCB_zsWSI&feature=related

Salinero can't halt :no:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng-k8Ftk7LA&feature=related

Bonfire can :yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCl8cZsAAWo&feature=related

Krack C?? can :yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGsbyyjnHRk&feature=related

Nelson can :yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa6s1ZEaV0g&feature=related

Painted Black can :yes:


And I could go on and on. This seems more of a problem with this one horse and it maybe really a hard thing for him to do. Atleast she tries the halt, the only thing that ticked me off was that she didn't salute at all at the end of her freestyle which to me is BS and shows no respect. Oh, and isn't it said that half of what people say while joking is true. ;)

Stubborn Mare
Aug. 25, 2008, 10:23 AM
:lol::lol::lol: This thread is hilarious now. comparing six year olds on ponies to olympic dressage performances? really? And flamboyance is only for saddleseat? really?? Last time I checked there was still a coefficient on the gaits mark at the end of each test, rightly or wrongly. Um, not to rain on your parade but perhaps some of you need to spend some more time learning about dressage on horses rather than on BBs - might help you come across as less "arrogant".

;)

STF
Aug. 25, 2008, 09:36 PM
Ok, I was just watching AVG's freestyle from there and watched her halt and stand Salinaro before the beginning of the music. So....... now I do have to agree that maybe the ending of the tests is just a virtual "finger" to others by not doing it.
JMO

Mardi
Aug. 25, 2008, 11:48 PM
If you feel Anky should have been eliminated for her 'halt' then you also have to argue those missing these compulsory movements be eliminated too. If you don't then you are simply on an Anky witchhunt because you are not being consistent.[/QUOTE]

I don't believe Anky should have been eliminated; however in this situation, the difference between Anky and other riders who miss complusory movements is that Anky's "halt" at the end of the freestyle was omitted on purpose.

So it's a different scenario than a rider simply missing one of the movements while it was being attempted.

nero
Aug. 26, 2008, 12:24 AM
I don't believe Anky should have been eliminated; however in this situation, the difference between Anky and other riders who miss complusory movements is that Anky's "halt" at the end of the freestyle was omitted on purpose.

So it's a different scenario than a rider simply missing one of the movements while it was being attempted.


Some people do believe Anky should have been eliminated, that was my point.

My lord, the things people fixate on. Does it make you feel better? That is a serious question. I hope so, because I cannot imagine why else anyone would bang on so much about such a trivial matter.

Mardi
Aug. 26, 2008, 01:41 AM
Thanks for posting so it appeared that the entire quote was mine.

This thread has been an interesting topic for many because it involves the integrity of the sport at the highest levels: the venue and the performance.

If it's a matter of non-importance to you and others, that's fine, of course.

To each his own.

nero
Aug. 26, 2008, 01:47 AM
Thanks for posting so it appeared that the entire quote was mine.

.
That occured because when you quoted me originally it didn't come up properly, so when I quoted you it was all lumped together. Sorry about that, it wasn't my intention. I'll edit it.

freestyle2music
Aug. 26, 2008, 09:06 AM
It's so funny how all these "made-up" stories have start their own lifes on this forum :

Anky paid US$ 80.000,= for her freestyle :lol:

Not performing a compulsory movement is disqualification :lol:

What's next :confused:

dressagetraks
Aug. 26, 2008, 09:08 AM
Just to clarify, not that it will make any difference on this thread, I do NOT believe that Anky should be eliminated for a non halt, although I do think that deliberately eliminating one ("oh, he doesn't really have to do this") is arrogant.

I DO think that Anky should be eliminated because of not saluting at the end, because the salute is defined in the rulebook as marking the end of the test. This does give it a special significance not assigned to any of the other compulsory movements. Not to salute, by the rule book, means that your test did not end.

If the rule book did not define the salute as marking the end of the test, I would not think that Anky should be eliminated for not saluting.

But I would still think that not saluting the judges for any reason, including joy or forgetfulness, is blatant disrespect to them.

Edited to repeat the rulebook:

The FEI Rules
Article 430

10. Salute.
Competitors must take the reins in one hand at the salute.

14. Beginning/End of test.
A test begins with the entry at A and ends after
the salute at the end of the test, as soon as the horse moves forward.

16. Details to the Freestyle Test
At the beginning and end of a Freestyle Test a halt for the salute is
compulsory.


Anky did not salute (or halt) and admits this, although says she just forgot. So by the rulebook, since there was a total lack of salute, when did her test end? Had she saluted without a halt, I think it should have been scored 0 but not elimination. But to not salute, your test by definition did not end.

Out of this thread. It's pointless, and while I do think she should have been eliminated, I have many much more important things to spend time on than Anky.

STF
Aug. 26, 2008, 10:44 AM
Yo Theo (who knows all),
The commentator at the Olympics was the one who SAID she paid 80K for her stuff. But Im sure you know more than anyone else.

akor
Aug. 26, 2008, 01:04 PM
I still don't think her blowing off the last part of the test was professional. I'm the LEAST likely person to write this, and it almost scares me to do so, but blowing off the final salute is sort of like sticking up your middle finger at the tradition of it, IMO. Now, I may not agree with many traditions, but they seem to exist, and I think Anky is talented enough to salute through one of her mount's California style rolling stops.

Maybe the jumpers can band together and say that if you are the only one clear to your last fence, you can just pass that last one by...

canticle
Aug. 26, 2008, 01:33 PM
This all comes down to the incompetence of the judges. Training level is judged to a higher standard than GP, and that is just sad...

rabicon
Aug. 26, 2008, 01:54 PM
It's so funny how all these "made-up" stories have start their own lifes on this forum :

Anky paid US$ 80.000,= for her freestyle :lol:

Not performing a compulsory movement is disqualification :lol:

What's next :confused:


She did pay 80K for her freestyle music. ;)

Also not performing the halt to perfection is not grounds for DQ but not saluting at the end is a different thing ;)

Auventera Two
Aug. 26, 2008, 04:36 PM
Halt, smalt............
If it does not move like a glorified Hackney on crack, it aint gona win anyway........... ;)

Would that be a Crackney?

Just checking. I file a list of all the Labradoodle, Cockapoos, and Arapercherloosas of the world, and would hate to omit Crackney from my list.

Auventera Two
Aug. 26, 2008, 04:57 PM
Which is why I asked where she had said she had left it out intentionally. Because in every Dutch paper I read and interviews I saw online (in Dutch), she never said she left it out intentionally.

http://www.brabantsdagblad.nl/sport/peking/3585816/Anky-van-Grunsven-gelukkig-en-opgelucht.ece

Then perhaps she should issue a written statement of apology to the judging panel. I sure would if I flipped them the bird and they gave me a gold medal anyway.

Bats79
Aug. 30, 2008, 04:27 AM
What it boils down to is that no one needs to salute at the end of a test anymore because all you can be penalised is "maybe" an error of course. She might have don't the men a real favour saving them from taking off their hats and messing up their "hat hair" again.

freestyle2music
Aug. 31, 2008, 02:21 PM
Funny to see that the Halt of Anky attracks more US-posters than a lame Brentina and Courtney and Mythilus in trouble !:confused:

DownYonder
Aug. 31, 2008, 03:30 PM
Yeah, it is lucky for Debbie M. that Anky didn't halt, Satchmo had a meltdown and Courtney and Mythilus are in trouble with the drug czars. Those dramas seem to have made everyone forget about Brentina's soundness issues. :lol:

freestyle2music
Aug. 31, 2008, 03:41 PM
Yeah, it is lucky for Debbie M. that Anky didn't halt, Satchmo had a meltdown and Courtney and Mythilus are in trouble with the drug czars. Those dramas seem to have made everyone forget about Brentina's soundness issues. :lol:


Certainly not for me. I put my two arms in the fire for the innocence of Courtney (not the rest of her team), but the things I have watched myself about Brentina will always stay in my mind, even when this fact has faded to the background because of the CDK saga.

slc2
Aug. 31, 2008, 04:16 PM
It is just natural for people to attack the foreign teams and stick up for their own team.

egontoast
Aug. 31, 2008, 04:18 PM
I put my two arms in the fire for the innocence of Courtney

such cute expressions you have, Theo.:)

slc, wouldn't you like to set some of your appendages on fire too?

freestyle2music
Aug. 31, 2008, 04:24 PM
such cute expressions you have, Theo.:)

slc, wouldn't you like to set some of your appendages on fire too?

Yes Egon thats the advantage of having a culture that goes back for thousands of years.

claire
Aug. 31, 2008, 04:35 PM
Funny to see that the Halt of Anky attracks more US-posters than a lame Brentina and Courtney and Mythilus in trouble !:confused:

hmmm. Anky Halt thread (which was started by you) has 199 responses
(14 -the most- from you ;) )

While the Courtney thread(s) have 360 responses...

This latest post brings an interesting behind the scenes viewpoint:


When Courtney and the team arrived in Hong Kong, all the horses were in good health. They had a day off, then were all tack walked the second day.

Myth didn't feel right to Courtney. The team vet, Dr. Mitchell did an extremely thorough exam, and he found that the horse was in atrial fibrillation. His heart beat was erratic. Dr. Mitchell went directly to the Veterinary Commission to consult with their professionals. Several ECG's were performed, and his heart was ultrasounded. Dr. Mitchell and the Vet Commission recommended that Mythilus be given a drug called Quinnidine in order to convert his heart back to a regular rhythm. It is given through a stomach tube every 4 hours, and has about a 60% success rate. Myth was taken to the clinic 9 times and was intubated through his nostril and down his throat to give him this medicine. They stopped at 9 doses. All of the drugs were known and approved prior to treatment. None were labeled with any banned substances.
After Courtney began to ride Myth (with veterinary permission) he got better with work instead of struggling.

While the reserve rider was standing by ready to ride an hour before the first GP test, it was determined Myth (and by the way, Brentina and Ravel as well) were fully fit to perform.

Myth and Courtney, as we all know, did a fantastic job. No one, Courtney especially would have permitted the horse to perform if there were any chance of his test compromising his health

slc2
Aug. 31, 2008, 04:40 PM
I'm not setting any appendages on fire, egon, perhaps you'd like to set a couple of your own on fire.

Our image that we see of Courtney is a highly emotional, media-colored one, and we in America usually read only 1 or 2 media sources about dressage, and those sources almost always are in complete agreement about any issue. I doubt any of us really knows what happened in any of these cases.

I still believe that Courtney would not present an unfit horse to compete on. I also believe that COurtney would not herself give a horse medication she knew was illegal. I have nothing really to make me believe that, I don't know Courtney. It's just a thought.

Mythilus was provided on short notice, and was doing the I1 a short time ago. Brentina - I don't know. That horse was not right during her class. Ravel should not have been presented at that level of class for another year or year and a half.

I don't know why all this stuff happened. But I think a new group of people should be in charge of selecting our team. I think it is more important to select horses that are fit than select horses that scored higher on one day. I think the selection process should be more transparent. And I think we need a new group of people running the show.

freestyle2music
Aug. 31, 2008, 06:09 PM
Claire get your records straight please. I started the thread as a spin off of the thousand of postings about this topic, and I didn't only mean on COTH, but on other BB's also. Look for example on TOB :yes:

claire
Aug. 31, 2008, 06:52 PM
Claire get your records straight please. I started the thread as a spin off of the thousand of postings about this topic, and I didn't only mean on COTH, but on other BB's also. Look for example on TOB :yes:

Cool Your Jets Theo! :lol:

If your comment/issue is with TOB and other BB's then why not post your rebuttles there?

And why title your thread: "A message to the halt police of COTH"???



A message to the Halt Police of COTH (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=163368)

freestyle2music
Aug. 31, 2008, 07:27 PM
Cool Your Jets Theo! :lol:

If your comment/issue is with TOB and other BB's then why not post your rebuttles there?

And why title your thread: "A message to the halt police of COTH"???

My issue is not about one specific board, but all US-boards. When this disaster for Courtney and Mythilus hadn't happened the main topic still would be "the halt of A&S" . :yes:

Mardi
Aug. 31, 2008, 09:45 PM
Ravel should not have been presented at that level of class for another year or year and a half.




The same was said about Salinero at Athens.

I'm not comparing the horses, I'm just adding that the same was said about him.

freestyle2music
Aug. 31, 2008, 11:18 PM
http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Dressage/About_Dressage/Documents/D-World%20Cup.pdf

FEI WORLD CUP™
DRESSAGE
Champions
1986 Anne-Grethe Jensen DEN Marzog
1987 Christine Stückelberger SUI Gaugin de Lully
1988 Christine Stückelberger SUI Gaugin de Lully
1989 Margit Otto-Crepin FRA Corlandus
1990 Sven Rothenberger GER Andiamo
1991 Kyra Kyrklund FIN Matador
1992 Isabell Werth GER Fabienne
1993 Monica Theodorescu GER Ganimedes
1994 Monica Theodorescu GER Ganimedes
1995 Anky van Grunsven NED Bonfire
1996 Anky van Grunsven NED Bonfire
1997 Anky van Grunsven NED Bonfire
1998 Louise Nathhorst SWE LRF Walk on Top
1999 Anky van Grunsven NED Gestion Bonfire
2000 Anky van Grunsven NED Gestion Bonfire
2001 Ulla Salzgeber GER Rusty
2002 Ulla Salzgeber GER Rusty
2003 Debbie McDonald USA Brentina
2004 Anky van Grunsven NED Gestion Salinero
2005 Anky van Grunsven NED Keltec Salinero
2006 Anky van Grunsven NED Keltec Salinero
2007 Isabell Werth GER Warum Nicht FRH
2008 Anky van Grunsven NED IPS Salinero

Beverley
Aug. 31, 2008, 11:40 PM
freestyle2music...your point is?

Multiple World Cup winners don't have to follow the rules?
Multiple World Cup winners know how to give a winning presentation, which is not necessarily related to correct dressage?
Multiple World Cup winners should be celebrated, not questioned or criticised?

Please enlighten.

Meanwhile, my position on the Olympics remains- the gold medal winner shamed her sport, and should be ashamed.

canticle
Sep. 1, 2008, 01:43 AM
Is it that Anky can't halt, or that she just doesn't want to? It really isn't that hard.

DownYonder
Sep. 1, 2008, 06:57 AM
Is it that Anky can't halt, or that she just doesn't want to? It really isn't that hard.

It isn't that Anky can't halt, or that she doesn't want to. It is that Salerino WON'T halt - esp. at the end of a test - and asking him to do so risks an explosion that would make Satchmo's piaffe shenanigans look like young horse high jinks.

Anky knew she didn't even have to attempt the halt to beat Isabell, so she didn't. I don't agree with it, but until FEI changes the scoring of the GP to make a 3 second halt and salute MANDATORY, Anky will continue to get away with it. She and Sjef have always bent the rules in the quest for more brilliance, more expression, and today's international judges reward that far more than correctness. The sport is becoming more and more of an entertainment spectacle than a discipline that rewards correct, classical training and riding.

slc2
Sep. 1, 2008, 07:48 AM
This is the worst part of this debate, that the judges stink so completely, every one of them, and that they don't know how to judge, and unfortunately - very unfortunately, we have a judge with an agenda who will come here and confirm that.

That's what I can't accept, that and that this side of the debate so completely shuts off any dialogue or understanding, it's just a bunch of one-sided chest beating without any response or even input from 'the other side' even considered or discussed. Nobody talks to these judges. Nobody listens to them. They just condemn them, and they aren't here to defend themselves, which makes this condemnation all the more unfair.

You don't like Witthages. Why. Because of a magazine story or some event you only partially understand, and now SHE'S the devil too. She's a bossy fat lady, Anky has big teeth, Sjeff has bad hair - you guys make me sick with this kind of childish talk.

I know some dressage judges, they are extremely diligent and have a very, very good awareness of how to judge. And they are NOT 'rewarding only brilliance' and they are NOT stupid or unaware of dressage and its classical requirements. In fact they are very aware of it. Most of them could be spending their time a LOT more profitably when they are sitting in the judge's chair. They choose to judge dressage, and it's not for the money.

The OTHER side of 'the judges stink' is that people simply, willfully and deliberately, do not listen to them, and do not learn how dressage is judged, they don't even have any idea which movements are mandatory and which are required and what that means, and how that affects ringcraft (oh, by the way, ringcraft is bad, except when you are doing it, then it's 'best for the horse')....and simply start beating their chests and screaming, 'I don't HAVE to know how dressage is judged, they stink!'

There are 'types' of horses. There is a more 'exaggerated' type of horse, I don't even feel Salinero comes under that category, but there is a more exaggerated type of dressage horse that some competitors have. There are some horses that are less relaxed, and more tense, again I don't see Salinero in that category, though at times he is tense, as all horses are. I think his action and way of moving is misinterpreted by people so that they think he is tense all the time, and I think people see everything he does through the lens of 'I hate Rollkur Anky, she is evil', and I have YET to see ONE review of any of her rides here that had anything to do with reality.

Other horses do exactly the same things he does and it's ignored, or even more curiously, praised. Other horses aren't 'tense', they're 'energetic' or 'trying hard'. Other horses aren't strong in hand, they're 'forward', 'eager', etc. Every other horse has the curb bit make the same amount, that's ignored. Balagur fights the bit, hollows out his back, goes croup high, opens his mouth, makes mistakes, doesn't flow smoothly forward - he's perfect, he should have won, Anky sucks, the judges suck, that's all there is to it. Anyone who doesn't agree doesn't know dressage or is a horse abuser.

I think Salinero like many horses has some wierd quirks - Balkenhol's horse was like that too. So was Ahlerich, so was Biotop, both trained by the great non rollkur Klimke - people forget that - very deliberately, they forget that. In fact, MOST of the top horses have 'moments' - moments of disobedience, moments of tension, moments of just 'run away', and mistakes. Big ones. Being the top scoring horse in the world doesn't mean they don't make mistakes or that they are perfect. Scoring is an adding process. You can lose points in one place, and gain points in another.

It's SO deliberate and so determined and so willingly blinded, that there is just no way anyone can have a discussion - it just turns into chest beating, and if you don't agree, you're a horse killer and you don't know dressage.

I think having a horse that has the energy and the willingness to work at a higher level means taking the chance that he is going to be reactive to some sights and sounds, and at times, tense, and at times, yes, resistant. No matter what training method is used.

People like to put up Balkenhol as not using rollkur and being classical - yet he had a horse that spooked in the ring, in fact, he was so bad, he was so completely unpredictable and unreliable, he blew so many important competitions, that the horse was removed from the German team. The horse also had fundamental flaws in his piaffe, and he still came second many times in top competition. So did Monica's horse, Ganimedes, it won everything, and it had a fundamental flaw, it couldn't piaffe its way out of a paper bag. And it got so many points on the transitions and the extended gaits, that it nearly won everything.

Rembrandt too, lost points for keeping his knees low in the piaffe and not sitting down, gained points on the transitions - which no one could match, and which contribute massively to the GP score, and the rhythm. It was the most stunning transition from piaffe to passage or canter one ever saw. He could piaffe all day like that. It was incredible. There has never been and never will be anything like it again. The horse was one in a million in that respect...and he still had faults.

freestyle2music
Sep. 1, 2008, 10:26 AM
SLC you forgot to mention the "schaukel" of Goldstern.

Remember the WEG at The Hague, where he kept his front legs on the same spot and did only step back with his hindlegs. So at the end Klaus was almost sitting on the ground. :cool:

But the influence of Klaus was big enough to get the FEI to remove the schaukel from the GP-test.

fiona
Sep. 1, 2008, 12:41 PM
maybe the people here could march on the FEI HQ and get the whole GP removed apart from the halt. Apparently, it's not really that hard and i'd put money on it being the only bit of the test they could do.

canticle
Sep. 1, 2008, 12:45 PM
It isn't that Anky can't halt, or that she doesn't want to. It is that Salerino WON'T halt - esp. at the end of a test - and asking him to do so risks an explosion that would make Satchmo's piaffe shenanigans look like young horse high jinks.

Anky knew she didn't even have to attempt the halt to beat Isabell, so she didn't. I don't agree with it, but until FEI changes the scoring of the GP to make a 3 second halt and salute MANDATORY, Anky will continue to get away with it. She and Sjef have always bent the rules in the quest for more brilliance, more expression, and today's international judges reward that far more than correctness. The sport is becoming more and more of an entertainment spectacle than a discipline that rewards correct, classical training and riding.
Hmmm so I guess this falls on the judges then? If any of us refused to halt, there is no way we would be rewarded with 5's. I'm still amazed that a GP horse can lack such a basic skill. It really isn't that hard.

canticle
Sep. 1, 2008, 12:49 PM
maybe the people here could march on the FEI HQ and get the whole GP removed apart from the halt. Apparently, it's not really that hard and i'd put money on it being the only bit of the test they could do.
Little fiona, dressage is progressive! If you can't do the basics, then there is a major training issue and whatever you are doing now is meaningless! The halt is so basic that it is the first thing we teach young horses.

I myself would love to see the GP horses do a forward working trot, just to see if they are still capable of moving without that overcadenced, "passage" we've come to know and love. Ahh to dream!

fiona
Sep. 1, 2008, 01:28 PM
yes that would be a good test. How about a nice stretchy circle in rising trot too? maybe whilst waving a carrott stick and bouncing a ball?

Touchstone Farm
Sep. 1, 2008, 01:51 PM
slc, You always seem to have rather dramatic responses.... :-)

I don't think anyone would say all judges stink -- I know I wouldn't. (Your quote: "...This is the worst part of this debate, that the judges stink so completely, every one of them, and that they don't know how to judge.") However, there ARE better judges than others, like any profession. In talking with some "O" and "I" judges, they have said when they sit on an international panel, they look around and wonder if they should "adapt" their judging to make up for a weak one on the panel. And most any judge I've talked to say it is a shame that politics does occur, be it on the local or international level. No one likes this, but what's the solution to human nature? Would be great to hear of one.

So you might want to take off your rose-colored classes and join the real world!

egontoast
Sep. 1, 2008, 01:55 PM
yes that would be a good test. How about a nice stretchy circle in rising trot too? maybe whilst waving a carrott stick and bouncing a ball?


:lol: I'd set someone's appendages on fire to see that!:lol:


PS and plenty of halts , all with coefficients of 20.

grayarabpony
Sep. 1, 2008, 02:00 PM
How about a nice stretchy circle in rising trot too?

Actually I like that idea. Maybe that movement should be kept all the way up the levels.

slc2
Sep. 1, 2008, 02:52 PM
Sorry, Theo, I'm not in your camp either, which appears to be 'The Dutch are beyond reproach'. I don't like your endless 'patriotism'. The Dutch riders should be looked at exactly the same way as any other riders.

ALL horses, all riders, ALL have faults. ALL make mistakes. Even the best in the world make mistakes - BIG ONES on occasion. Every horse has weaknesses, every horse has strengths. The GP test judges numerous different things because dressage consists of numerous things.

Schaukel was removed because it is in more basic tests, to shorten the GP test. Many movements are not in the GP test because they are already tested, in lower tests. Balkenhol had influence, but that wouldn't have happened if he alone wanted it.

And ah, by the way, Theo, I have seen that horse perform a perfectly fine schaukel on other occasions.

I do, actually, think that the GP test should include a basic test, but I would like to see that separate from the GP test, and before it, and kind of a pre-requisite, with a pass fail or other simple score. The horse would have to show working gaits on the bit, a stretch out of hand and in hand (uberstreichen), halt, rein back, in either the warmup or the competition ring. I would like to have that largely to satisfy the whiners, as that work has all already been tested at a prior level and has been established. I think what would infuriate all who are demanding that and beating your chests that these top horses stink so badly, is that all the horses, with only the very occasional exception, would perform that basic test perfectly.

Kaeleer
Sep. 1, 2008, 03:24 PM
Yes Egon thats the advantage of having a culture that goes back for thousands of years.


Theo, you're Dutch, right? So your "culture" is famous for cheese and...oh, yes, tulips!

If you're going to make pithy comments designed to put the "colonies" back in their place, you will remember that, won't you? [edit]

grayarabs
Sep. 1, 2008, 04:29 PM
Beverley - agreed!!
slc2 - agree in regards to Rembrandt- we will never see the likes of him again.
I recall seeing videos of Rembrandt being ridden deep - explanation you previously gave - and I was not horrified. I do not recall thinking he looked distressed by it. I also believed - and hope it is true - that it was only used with him a few moments here and there. Rembrandt was surely "hot" - but nailed almost everything - including the halts as I recall.
I have no idea - did NU ride her other horses "the new deep"? When and how did it morph into RK - or the version AvG and SJ practice that folks find so disturbing?
Who was the first trainer to use "deep" like we saw with Rembrandt?
Where did he get the idea? From QH western pleasure?

slc2
Sep. 1, 2008, 05:16 PM
slc2 - agree in regards to Rembrandt- we will never see the likes of him again.

Not so sure of that, I hope to live a lot longer yet, and see another one like that.

I recall seeing videos of Rembrandt being ridden deep - explanation you previously gave - and I was not horrified.

Alot of people WERE. It created a huge flap, but not so much on the bulletin boards, which were very limited then as I said, Remmie was cute, and so was Nicole. The situation was different than today. There is a very, very different climate in dressage today with most contact via the internet.

Back in 1988, too, there were not all the video clips on the internet for one and all to see, so the outrage was more limited.

I do not recall thinking he looked distressed by it.

I think it helped him a great deal, actually. Like some of the horses I think it was Molly Martin talked about, there's a problem in the neck and back muscles that it can help. The mental excitement goes along with the condition of the muscles of the back, the two things reinforce and feed off of eachother, there has to be a break in that cycle. I actually think the muscle chemistry and the brain chemistry are very closely coupled, and changing the muscle activity has a direct effect on the brain, ability to focus, relax, etc.

She got him when she was 9, and he was 2, and she spent a lot of time hanging on while he ran away. He was very afraid of things, and he didn't ask questions, he just left town, destination, the barn. He ran out of more than one show ring and headed for the hills.

I have a video somewhere of her riding in lead of the German Quadrille down a big hill to start the quadrille ride. At one point he pauses and starts to light up, and she just was SO COOL. She just didn't move. She had more self control than any ten people I ever saw. I always thought heading up a big line of riders with Rembrandt was one of the braver things anyone had ever done.

I also believed - and hope it is true - that it was only used with him a few moments here and there.

Not really. I actually thought she was under a great deal of pressure to get him more reliable, or lose her position on the German team, and I thought for a very young person with a first international horse, she was under an immense amount of pressure, and handled it incredibly well, she just would NOT get after that horse in a mean way, she NEVER seemed to lose her composure when riding, she was absolutely determined to lick this and it was incredible, absolutely incredible to see how much self control she had in dealing with him. At one point she worked with Linda Tellington-Jones, I'm not sure how seriously or long, but she did.

He warmed up in that position quite a bit. I have some videos of him warming up and schooling - it's rather stunning, to be honest. He came out wrapped tighter than an electric coil, and wound up buttery soft, licking, champing slowly, and looking like a very happy pony.

Rembrandt was surely "hot" - but nailed almost everything - including the halts as I recall.

Not completely. Like most higher couraged horses, he was often startled at the halt. She had to drift through a few of them. He also could do this maddening little 'SKIP' that most people wouldn't even recognize as a spook, but that is what it was. He would just tighten up his back and skip his legs out of rhythm. It was lightning fast - we used to set the video player on super slow to try to see what happened.

I have no idea - did NU ride her other horses "the new deep"?

Not sure what 'the new deep' is.

20-30 years ago, most dressage riders, including many who speak against rollkur, used to bring their horse's head, neck around to their knee, and ride them with the head on one knee, then the other. It was a very extreme bend. Watching them warm up was pretty hairy - they'd go galloping around like mad, horse's head on their left knee, head on the right knee. Around mid 80's one would see a few international riders riding their horses deep. The position was not as extreme as what a couple top riders do today, but it was very, very close - there was very, very little difference.

Some people would bring the horse's head around to one side then the other, some just rode their horses deeper, without the side bending. Gradually, more talk of it worked its way down to my side of the world, and I was seeing it in front of me rather than just in media, here and there trainers popped up working with people and teaching them, mostly to ride somewhat deep, about in the posture Nicole was using.

When and how did it morph into RK - or the version AvG and SJ practice that folks find so disturbing?

I think that Anky as well as others were using a deep position for quite some time, that all started internationally in the mid 1980s. What Anky was doing was just slightly more of it. What was so strange about what she did, was that she could raise the horse's shoulders while she did it. Alot of people tried to copy her, but they could not do what she did. It was unbelievable, really. I'm not sure most people got what was going on. I used to sit there and think, How the hell? She would be riding the horse up completely off her seat.

I have pictures of her riding Bo and Cocktail that just - I CANNOT understand how she could do that the way she did. They had an exercise that they did that was very similar to what others did, that she did with C0cktail, called 'The Clock', where the horse moved like the clock hands. I think I have that on the 1992 videos of 'Warming up in Aachen' narrated by Carol Lavel (that tape is wonderful, highly recommended), where Cocktail would be in a very deep position and basically do what looked like a pirouette in canter, but slow, it was to build muscle and looked almost like a terre-a-terre. The first time I saw that I dropped my jaw on the floor. It looked like a print from the 17th century.

Who was the first trainer to use "deep" like we saw with Rembrandt?

Nicole was close to a lot of jumper riders (i think a brother, and she was married to one for a time, Becker), as was Anky (2 brothers rode jumpers) and both were supposed to have developed that out of watching jumper riders supple their horses.

Where did he get the idea? From QH western pleasure?

Very funny, supposed to be insulting, I suppose, but no. In Western pleasure the position of the horse's body and shoulder is very, very different, as is the rein contact, aids, seat, use of back, hind quarter, overall gait characteristics, level of activity, etc.

Moderator 1
Sep. 1, 2008, 09:11 PM
We've removed/edited several posts. Please avoid the personal commentary or we'll have to close the thread.

Thanks,
Mod 1

ridgeback
Sep. 1, 2008, 09:16 PM
yes the truth stinks..:) :) LOL

grayarabs
Sep. 2, 2008, 03:29 PM
slc2 - thanks and interesting reply.
re: Remmie - I was at a clinic in the 80's where videos were shown of NU warming up R.
And really - warming him up was what I thought was going on. A hot/spooky horse - that she rode deep - ie I thought this was what she did when she first got on him - or he was in a new place and reacting. That was my "take". I was riding at the time a hot (for me) horse with long neck - that when spooked - up when head/neck - all contact with bit gone - and away we went. I hated that feeling. Anyhoo - I thought - ok the NU/R warm-up makes sense - have his head/neck lower when warming up - so that when he spooks/attempts to bolt - you have a bit of a warning - and can "catch" the upwards movement of head/neck before horse gets above bit and is gone. Make sense?
Leastways - that was my interpretation - and I agree - that it seemed to relax him as well.
The tapes I saw - it was not ugly - nor did it appear forceful - nor did it seem that R was feeling confined/trapped/distressed - it was more like a pacifier to him. I think he was the better for it - mentally. Again - to me it was for warm-up - until he settled and got connected etc - and not the basis for his training. I was also under the assumption that he was the only horse ridden like that - it was special - just for him. No - not a classical training aid - and I thought that outside of R - riding deep like that would not be seen again.
(Also around this time was when riders were reminded to ride long and low ie stretch - still connection with the bit - and we soon saw that requirement in tests. OK - not the same thing at all really - but still...........). OK - then comes AvG and super deep - gosh - is that the same thing that NU was doing? To me - no. Never. JMHO - I think AvG's horses are more frazzled by it - ie RK - than relaxed by it. I think NU rode R very tactfully deeper than what most people were used to seeing. I think SJ and AvG took it to another level - gosh the foundation of their training? - and I don't see evidence that the horses like it - are mentally improved by it - I don't see much good in it at all - and much harm.
Yes - they are winning - but I and others don't like how they are winning.
Hmmmmmmmmmm. Wonder about NU and Salinero as a partnership. If she had had him first - and started/handled him like Remmie?

abrant
Sep. 2, 2008, 04:44 PM
Theo, you're Dutch, right? So your "culture" is famous for cheese and...oh, yes, tulips!

If you're going to make pithy comments designed to put the "colonies" back in their place, you will remember that, won't you? [edit]


Also famous for legalized pot and prostitution.

Worth mentioning.

If I had free access to such things I probably wouldn't give a damn about halting either.

(Not that I do anyway, also worth mentioning)

:D

slc2
Sep. 2, 2008, 06:24 PM
You all are some of the cattiest, nastiest people I've ever met.

Holland is also famous for having a far better health program than the US, an incredible conservation and energy use program, very advanced technology, and when I was there, I was stunned to see how active and happy older people are there.

The whole population seems to turn out for cycling and sports in the country. And the country can be cycled to from the city.

The country is BEAUTIFUL. There is just not even one CORNER of it that's not beautiful. I went all around the whole country, from north to south, and across the huge bay full of sailboats, and past a gigantic wildlife preserve with wild cattle, and it was BEAUTIFUL. Just stunning. I loved the houses, gardens, the ocean, the wind power, and everything.

Another fabulous thing about Holland is the food. The food is just out of this world. While you can buy some outrageously caloric cholestero-snacks, 'health food' is also very mainstream, and fresh veggies, salads and lean meats are delicious, dairy products and meat are a big product there. Another great thing is the food from Indonesia and all the different other ethnic eateries around. Going out to eat in Holland is a wonderful experience.

As far as I could tell, people seemed to be very happy, very friendly, and very kind to foreigners. I LOVED the 'every other house has a horse' environment and the way so many people are interested in dressage or jumping.

More than anything about Holland, I loved the people. It is a great environment in many ways.

Roan
Sep. 2, 2008, 06:31 PM
. . .
I recall seeing videos of Rembrandt being ridden deep - explanation you previously gave - and I was not horrified.

[I]Alot of people WERE. It created a huge flap, but not so much on the bulletin boards, which were very limited then as I said, Remmie was cute, and so was Nicole. The situation was different than today. There is a very, very different climate in dressage today with most contact via the internet. . . .

Hokay. Care to clarify this slc? I've been on the internet since 1989. The web, as we know it, did not exist until 1994 and was not even "known" until 1996. The only thing available before that that would function in the mode you are referring would be USENET and IRC. Neither of those are bulletin boards and VERY few people used them, even those who got rec.equestrian.

hrm, in fact I've only found ONE newsgroup post between 1981 and 1992 that has the word "dressage" in it and it has to do with Dressage at Devon.

The only BBSes that existed were those that you had to dial in via a 300 baud modem, and most people stayed local.

So, what contact via the internet are you talking about?

Eileen

slc2
Sep. 2, 2008, 06:36 PM
Starting about 1983 or 84, there was a group of people who talked back and forth about dressage, both classical and competitive. Someone here already told me it couldn't have been on arpanet, and I thought it was on arpanet, so if that's wrong, I don't remember what it was called/what group it was on. There was a group of people who I remember posted alot about the 88 olympics and the 84 olympics, that's where there was a lot of talk about Nicole Uphoff's NEW methods and discussion of alot of historical stuff as well as the perennial competitive vs classical discussions. I remember reading it, but i must not remember the name of the group/ net correctly. I also read about it in Dressage and CT as well.

Roan
Sep. 2, 2008, 06:51 PM
Heh. I'm not even going to get into this. It's not horse related and you can look up the history of Arpanet and UUCP and TCP/IP yourself.

As for the "group" you refer to: all the USENET posts going back 20 years are archived and I've already searched them. I posted my findings already.

Dunno who and what you are referring to -- could it have existed? Perhaps as a couple of private individuals using IRC or something, yah, but that's it. People didn't even HAVE access to computers back then.

Oh, unless they were using Trash 80s or Vic 20s? :winkgrin:

Eileen

Roan
Sep. 2, 2008, 07:08 PM
[This is Kris Kortright, Roan's Husband]

In 1983/84 what you Must be referring to are the old fashioned Bulletin Boards, you know the kind with 1-3 dial-up modems and we called in one-at-a-time, usually at 300 baud, to post on message boards. There were even some single-player zork-like games around BBSs, but they Always had limited audiences and always from a local area (because everyone was dialing in an no one called long-distance in those days either).

Of course you could be referring to the few very expensive dial-in boards like Compuserve, but those too had very limited audiences and any postings there would not have gone far (by today's standards). So sure, maybe even an entire bulletin board on the subject - but either way I'm sure its long, long gone into the bit bucket. ;)

freestyle2music
Sep. 2, 2008, 07:19 PM
Also famous for legalized pot and prostitution.

Worth mentioning.

If I had free access to such things I probably wouldn't give a damn about halting either.

(Not that I do anyway, also worth mentioning)

:D

Don't you think it is funny that when I have to send a DVD with dressage-footage to the USA, that I have to fill in tons of documents in which I have to declare that there is "no pornographic material on the DVD", while the USA is the mainproducer of Porno in the world ?

slc2
Sep. 2, 2008, 07:22 PM
It of course did not look like this. The messages could be set up to appear in email, email was all character based. i had xwindows, not related to windows, it was all character based, there was no gui, there was no banners, it was just tiny green characters on a black screen. I can't recall now what group/net it was on. And it was interesting. Dressage in 1980 was a smaller group of people.

ridgeback
Sep. 2, 2008, 07:52 PM
Don't you think it is funny that when I have to send a DVD with dressage-footage to the USA, that I have to fill in tons of documents in which I have to declare that there is "no pornographic material on the DVD", while the USA is the mainproducer of Porno in the world ?

yes we have to watch it in the secrecy of our homes while y'all can go watch it live in the red light district;) I hope they are more concerned with child porn. Gotta love hollywood:D

Roan
Sep. 2, 2008, 07:59 PM
It of course did not look like this. The messages could be set up to appear in email, email was all character based. i had xwindows, not related to windows, it was all character based, there was no gui, there was no banners, it was just tiny green characters on a black screen. I can't recall now what group/net it was on. And it was interesting. Dressage in 1980 was a smaller group of people.
What exactly did you DO back then that you used X? Hrm?

Eileen

RunningwaterWBs
Sep. 2, 2008, 07:59 PM
Given the recent turn in conversation, would this be the right time to mention that Anky's farm has "requested the status 'European Certified fokkingstation'"?

Check it out:
http://www.anky.nl/index.asp?page=stal&subpage=Main%20objectives&lang=en

canticle
Sep. 2, 2008, 08:03 PM
You all are some of the cattiest, nastiest people I've ever met.

Holland is also famous for having a far better health program than the US, an incredible conservation and energy use program, very advanced technology, and when I was there, I was stunned to see how active and happy older people are there.

The whole population seems to turn out for cycling and sports in the country. And the country can be cycled to from the city.

The country is BEAUTIFUL. There is just not even one CORNER of it that's not beautiful. I went all around the whole country, from north to south, and across the huge bay full of sailboats, and past a gigantic wildlife preserve with wild cattle, and it was BEAUTIFUL. Just stunning. I loved the houses, gardens, the ocean, the wind power, and everything.

Another fabulous thing about Holland is the food. The food is just out of this world. While you can buy some outrageously caloric cholestero-snacks, 'health food' is also very mainstream, and fresh veggies, salads and lean meats are delicious, dairy products and meat are a big product there. Another great thing is the food from Indonesia and all the different other ethnic eateries around. Going out to eat in Holland is a wonderful experience.

As far as I could tell, people seemed to be very happy, very friendly, and very kind to foreigners. I LOVED the 'every other house has a horse' environment and the way so many people are interested in dressage or jumping.

More than anything about Holland, I loved the people. It is a great environment in many ways.
It sounds like a lovely little country, but the U.S. is all that and more.

ridgeback
Sep. 2, 2008, 08:23 PM
SLC lets not compare health care systems of a country of 16 million to a country of 300 million...NYC has 8 million just to give you some perspective. I'm sure Theo would let you rent a rooom from him:)

~Freedom~
Sep. 2, 2008, 10:33 PM
You all are some of the cattiest, nastiest people I've ever met.

SLC...please be careful with what you say when you look in a mirror.



It of course did not look like this. The messages could be set up to appear in email, email was all character based. i had xwindows, not related to windows, it was all character based, there was no gui, there was no banners, it was just tiny green characters on a black screen. I can't recall now what group/net it was on. And it was interesting. Dressage in 1980 was a smaller group of people.

Yes the "net" was very different back in the 70's and 80's. I believe it was housed in area 51 ?

Kaeleer
Sep. 3, 2008, 01:43 AM
Catty, Slc?


If I recall correctly YOU responded to my now-edited post with an amusing little riposte of your own. Yours was then deleted by the mods as well.


By the way, there's nothing wrong with my "asshole meter". Yours might function better if you didn't feel the need to crawl UP the actual orifice before switching it on.

slc2
Sep. 3, 2008, 06:47 AM
I think if the mods removed both posts they were BOTH inappropriate. If this thread is now to the point where we argue about which post was less inappropriate, thereby gaining brownie points for the arguer, the thread really SHOULD be closed, ;)

Kaeleer
Sep. 3, 2008, 07:02 AM
I'm not arguing about the inappropriateness of the posts, Slc, I'm merely pointing out your rampant hypocrisy.

You see, sometimes it actually is all about you! Yay!

~Freedom~
Sep. 3, 2008, 07:03 AM
I think if the mods removed both posts they were BOTH inappropriate. If this thread is now to the point where we argue about which post was less inappropriate, thereby gaining brownie points for the arguer, the thread really SHOULD be closed, ;)

WOW ! Does this mean that you actually agree there is a HALT out there somewhere ? :lol:

AnotherRound
Sep. 3, 2008, 07:48 AM
Originally Posted by slc2 http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3491695#post3491695)
You all are some of the cattiest, nastiest people I've ever met.
Why, slc? Because you were asked by so many posters to sort out your inconsistencies and explain what can only be your imaginings? Your stories are so implausible, so inconsitent with what else you have posted throughout the years, and so impossible to have happened based on fact and general history, and based on the real-life experiences of the other posters on this board, that its is generally understood that most of what you say, slc, is lies or made up.

Its painful to read what you post, because its so untrue and because it makes the readers feel you think they are fools, asking us swallow your lies. You insult the other posters on this board. As long as you keep it up, intelligent people will call you out on your lies. And you never answer the queries about clarifying yourself. You always resort to name calling and whining about the 'tone' of the objections posed to your postings. You may think it mean when readers and posters object to your stories, but most people on this board are intelligent, thinking, active adults participating fully in their lives, with no need to manufacture superlative experiences and present them as fact. And when those stories cross into other's real life experiences, you can be sure they will speak up and not always be pleasant about it, when it happens over and over. So how's that, catty enough for you? Because I don't mean to be. I'm being as straightforward as I can.

~Freedom~
Sep. 3, 2008, 08:01 AM
Why, slc? Because you were asked by so many posters to sort out your inconsistencies and explain what can only be your imaginings? Your stories are so implausible, so inconsitent with what else you have posted throughout the years, and so impossible to have happened based on fact and general history, and based on the real-life experiences of the other posters on this board, that its is generally understood that most of what you say, slc, is lies or made up.

Its painful to read what you post, because its so untrue and because it makes the readers feel you think they are fools, asking us swallow your lies. You insult the other posters on this board. As long as you keep it up, intelligent people will call you out on your lies. And you never answer the queries about clarifying yourself. You always resort to name calling and whining about the 'tone' of the objections posed to your postings. You may think it mean when readers and posters object to your stories, but most people on this board are intelligent, thinking, active adults participating fully in their lives, with no need to manufacture superlative experiences and present them as fact. And when those stories cross into other's real life experiences, you can be sure they will speak up and not always be pleasant about it, when it happens over and over. So how's that, catty enough for you? Because I don't mean to be. I'm being as straightforward as I can.


Couldn't agree more. Maybe all the SLC wafflings will come to a sudden HALT now before I get dizzy with all the swaying ?

Moderator 1
Sep. 3, 2008, 08:38 AM
Halt, salute--this thread has become focused on personal commentary from all directions and is being closed.