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View Full Version : Mclain Ward: True horsemanship



Sundown
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:28 PM
This is pretty old but I was just thinking about it especially after that *shall not be named* thread and how great he was at the Olympics. If anyone saw that Animal Planet showing in Aachen a couple of weeks ago before the Olympics then you probablly saw them interview him. I just wanted to say how amazing he is. In his interview he never said "I won this..." and listed his amazing riding acomplishment he always said "SHE won this and SHE did this FOR me." He was so humble and praised his horse for SO much and he is always giving her all the credit for what they have won together. He always says he would never be where he is without her. That is true horsemanship. Especially when he had to deal with all of what his father did and how he will always be looked as exceptionally hard because of that. He is truley an amazing rider and horse person and I think right now he deserves some special reconization for it.

Also, I'm not saying anything that people shouldn't say that they won things he's just amazing. ;)

Overo Kid
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:41 PM
Can't wait to watch him on Thursday! It's on NBC now, yippee! From the one ride on Sunday, Sapphire sure looked like a relaxed and happy horse.

joiedevie99
Aug. 19, 2008, 11:11 PM
I totally agree. I love watching his rides and am excited to see two more!!

chukkerchild
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:42 AM
Saphire is a fabulous horse and Mclain is a great great rider!! They're gonna give Eric & Hickstead a run for their money on Thursday... but this time Canada's gonna get it!! ;):lol:

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:33 AM
Big congratulations to McLain and the other team members -- well done! I was thinking yesterday about all that McLain has gone through, all the obstacles he had to face as a very young man, and how well-deserved his win is for him and his wonder mare.

[edit]

Anyway, I agree with the poster who implored people to leave their nastiness and cynicism at the door. Who are these people that write such things, anyway? They sound like a bunch of disgruntled ex-employees or jealous and bitter do-nothings. Is it possible, for just once, to be generous of heart and truly happy for other people when success finds them?

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:50 AM
Sundown - don't worry about the trolls. School will start soon and they'll go away; or their probation will be revoked. :mad:



Congratulations to McLain Ward. Wear the gold proudly, you and your horse earned it.

copper1
Aug. 20, 2008, 07:00 AM
Point is these 4 people on fabulous horses bested the entire world. Let us focus on that and congratulate them for it!
[edit]

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 07:13 AM
great rider but hardly a horseman...check out how many times he's gotten in trouble with the FEI....

Heineken
Aug. 20, 2008, 07:18 AM
Let's talk about the fact that tall of us arm chair quarterbacks sure as hell can't do what Will or McClain just did...reputations or not. And, before you point fingers, read the back of the USEF magazine with all the set downs...I don't see Will or McClain!

egontoast
Aug. 20, 2008, 07:24 AM
Not everyone would agree that a rider who ever thought it was a good idea to put shards in his horse's boots so the horse would experience pain if it hit a pole qualifies as a paragon of true horsemanship.

Flame away. If you start a gushy thread about someone like this, you can't expect everyone to drink your koolaid.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 07:24 AM
Let's talk about the fact that tall of us arm chair quarterbacks sure as hell can't do what Will or McClain just did...reputations or not. And, before you point fingers, read the back of the USEF magazine with all the set downs...I don't see Will or McClain!

Who said anything about riding the thread said horseman.. Won't even go into what his father has done and you combine that with the things he's done they aren't an impressive pair.. No doubt he's a great rider. Sitting at the Summmer Lex KY show last night it was interesting to listen to everyone say it was Will who clinched the gold for us.

pdiddy
Aug. 20, 2008, 08:02 AM
As far as McLain - yeah, he can ride and he knows how to do an interview. OOOOH, AHHHH, WHAT A HORSEMAN!!! PU-LEASE ....

Sannois
Aug. 20, 2008, 08:31 AM
Are willing to forget! :no:

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 08:55 AM
Big congratulations to McLain and the other team members -- well done! I was thinking yesterday about all that McLain has gone through, all the obstacles he had to face as a very young man, and how well-deserved his win is for him and his wonder mare.

[edit]

Anyway, I agree with the poster who implored people to leave their nastiness and cynicism at the door. Who are these people that write such things, anyway? They sound like a bunch of disgruntled ex-employees or jealous and bitter do-nothings. Is it possible, for just once, to be generous of heart and truly happy for other people when success finds them?

Then don't start a thread with the name McLain Ward and horseman in the same sentence maybe it should have read McLain Ward a great rider..:yes::eek:

Sundown
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:01 AM
I'm not going into the past and what he might have done. I don't know, I'm pretty sure I was way to young to hear about in anyway. I'm just talking about right now. For the past 4 years from what I have seen and heard he has been quite a horseman...I should have thought about it more but I didn't. Right now this is what I have observed.

Moderator 1
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:23 AM
We've removed/edited several comments re: unproven accusations about past events related to specific individuals. If you want to discuss how substantiated past events affect opinions of Olympians as horsemen, etc., you're welcome to do so, though the topic has been addressed at length in previous threads.

Any discussion must be based upon proven facts and be related to the main topic of the thread.

Thanks,
Mod 1

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:17 AM
Thank you for that!

I, for one, would like to see you respond even quicker and more pointedly.

These threads are quickly disintegrating and are a poor reflection on the posters and Chronicle Forums.

How about a rule that personal vendettas, slurs, and even legitimate discussions of someone's actual or alleged misdeeds be posted under a topic specifically identified for that purpose. Otherwise it is out of bounds in the subject matter forum.

I am on the brink of not wanting to come to this site any more because of the negativity, judgment, and venom pouring forth.

While the bad, and even criminal, behavior in the horse world is deplorable, the power anonymous posters feel to relentlessly grind someone into dirt is unacceptable, too.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:19 AM
Not everyone would agree that a rider who ever thought it was a good idea to put shards in his horse's boots so the horse would experience pain if it hit a pole qualifies as a paragon of true horsemanship.

Flame away. If you start a gushy thread about someone like this, you can't expect everyone to drink your koolaid.

Thank-you! Intentional cruelty is not a mistake, it is a lack of respect & caring for an animal that he earns his living from. How is that anything to do with horsemanship? That is NEVER something you "pay your dues for". It is "who he IS", and how he was raised - ya know, that ole "apple falling from the tree thing".

I guess some people have stars in their eyes, and are on the same thought process - anything for success or a gold medal. Sad.

travisday
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:22 AM
Wow I love this horse! She is so fantastic! And McLain...he can ride anything and make it a champion! We at EquiFit are so honored to work with him and to put T-Boots on all his rides. Can't wait for Thursday!!!!!!

Travis Day
EquiFit, inc.

talloaks
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:23 AM
HORSEBACKRIDER, the past is always with us so don't try to hind it under the carpet as if it were a little dirt!

citymouse
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:31 AM
Big congratulations to McLain and the other team members -- well done! I was thinking yesterday about all that McLain has gone through, all the obstacles he had to face as a very young man, and how well-deserved his win is for him and his wonder mare.

[edit]

Anyway, I agree with the poster who implored people to leave their nastiness and cynicism at the door. Who are these people that write such things, anyway? They sound like a bunch of disgruntled ex-employees or jealous and bitter do-nothings. Is it possible, for just once, to be generous of heart and truly happy for other people when success finds them?

Well said Yankee, Well Said!

I don't think people on here are every happy, it really seem as if so many come on thsi board to see who they can "attack" today. Which one us ever thought the USA would walk away with the gold medal and in such amazing fashion.

YES, McLain has made some very bad decisions in his past (the chips in the boots for example), and YES his father did something which is beyond reprehensible (sp??), BUT McLain is not his father, and for the other, he has paid his dues for his mistake - LET IT GO! Why was no one on here going crazy over the fact that they put Amy on the eventing team after what happened to her at Rolex, of wait that's okay because she paid her dues with the FEI, but for McLain it is not enough!

I am sorry you all have to feel such spite towards someone instead of being as proud as the rest of us are for our team and for what they accomplished TOGETHER!

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:31 AM
Wow I love this horse! She is so fantastic! And McLain...he can ride anything and make it a champion! We at EquiFit are so honored to work with him and to put T-Boots on all his rides. Can't wait for Thursday!!!!!!

Travis Day
EquiFit, inc.

Of course you do it's only about the all mighty $$$..

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:35 AM
Well said Yankee, Well Said!

I don't think people on here are every happy, it really seem as if so many come on thsi board to see who they can "attack" today. Which one us ever thought the USA would walk away with the gold medal and in such amazing fashion.

YES, McLain has made some very bad decisions in his past (the chips in the boots for example), and YES his father did something which is beyond reprehensible (sp??), BUT McLain is not his father, and for the other, he has paid his dues for his mistake - LET IT GO! Why was no one on here going crazy over the fact that they put Amy on the eventing team after what happened to her at Rolex, of wait that's okay because she paid her dues with the FEI, but for McLain it is not enough!

I am sorry you all have to feel such spite towards someone instead of being as proud as the rest of us are for our team and for what they accomplished TOGETHER!

Very happy for team USA and was cheering Mclain on but maybe it was a poor choice of words, for some us the word horseman really means something. Mclain is a great rider but he's no horseman. JMHO

Madeline
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:38 AM
great rider but hardly a horseman...check out how many times he's gotten in trouble with the FEI....

Just out of curiosity, how many times is that?

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:43 AM
Just out of curiosity, how many times is that?

two or three times could be more but that is all I remember..

CoolMeadows
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:43 AM
Only a great horseman can keep a horse fit, game and soft eyed for the length of time McLain's kept Sapphire going. There is no faking the attitude a horse has at that level, other stuff maybe but that is one happy mare.

I'm wary of the accusations against him and wouldn't be surprised if he was set up or was just the closest person to some plastic chips on the ground. I don't believe much of what I hear in the horse world and since there's no video of him clearly abusing a horse on Youtube (like another Olympian), or a written account by him preserved on the internet confessing his "lack of horsemanship" (like one sanctimonious poster here who decided because her new horse cribbed it basically didn't deserve to live), then I will draw my own conclusions based on his and his horses behaviour. Everyone's free of course to believe whatever the FEI spews without hard evidence.

I thought he sounded like a great horseman on AP, clearly very respectful of his horse and in tune with her personality.

FancyFree
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:44 AM
What are the details concerning the spiked boots? How do you even do that to a pair of boots? Was he charged for doing that to his horse?

Sorry but I have to agree with those that feel he isn't a very good horseman if those allegations are true. He is a wonderful rider, but how could anyone do that to a horse? :no:

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:45 AM
Only a great horseman can keep a horse fit, game and soft eyed for the length of time McLain's kept Sapphire going. There is no faking the attitude a horse has at that level, other stuff maybe but that is one happy mare.

I'm wary of the accusations against him and wouldn't be surprised if he was set up or was just the closest person to some plastic chips on the ground. I don't believe much of what I hear in the horse world and since there's no video of him clearly abusing a horse on Youtube (like another Olympian), or a written account by him preserved on the internet confessing his "lack of horsemanship" (like one sanctimonious poster here who decided because her new horse cribbed it basically didn't deserve to live), then I will draw my own conclusions based on his and his horses behaviour. Everyone's free of course to believe whatever the FEI spews without hard evidence.

I thought he sounded like a great horseman on AP, clearly very respectful of his horse and in tune with her personality.

:lol::lol::lol: Some horses are just happier then others and it doesn't always have anything to do with the rider..

Madeline
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:45 AM
two or three times could be more but that is all I remember..

Just curious. Other than the alleged plastic chips, what for?

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:47 AM
Just curious. Other than the alleged plastic chips, what for?

I don't remember specifics I will ask around the horse show, do you remember what year he was set down for the chips?

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:48 AM
I do not see that I said anything close to that.

But I understand that the opportunity for smug superiority is impossible for many here to resist.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:48 AM
What are the details concerning the spiked boots? How do you even do that to a pair of boots? Was he charged for doing that to his horse?

Sorry but I have to agree with those that feel he isn't a very good horseman if those allegations are true. He is a wonderful rider, but how could anyone do that to a horse? :no:

Yea I don't understand how people kill horses just becasue they aren't working out or the owner overpaid and now the horse isn't performing and the trainer has to fix the problem they created.

Madeline
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:50 AM
I don't remember specifics I will ask around the horse show, do you remember what year he was set down for the chips?


1999
Alleged chips

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:53 AM
Very happy for team USA and was cheering Mclain on but maybe it was a poor choice of words, for some us the word horseman really means something. Mclain is a great rider but he's no horseman. JMHO

Well, you might provide ALL the facts, instead of a select few, when throwing accusations around. The FACT is that the FEI inspectors claim they observed pieces of plastic fall from ONE boot (kind of odd to put plastic only in one, but okay) and could not prove that he had used plastic in the boot or boots. The fact is that McLain and his groom took and passed polygraphs about the incident, and these test results were provided to the FEI. Now, if you also want to dispute the results of polygraphs, fine, but I noticed all of his detractors conveniently leave facts like that out when discussing the incident. And yes, it seriously bugs me to see ill-informed posts from people who clearly have never even met this person, when I and others have known him since he was a little kid and showed against him for many years.

Lori T
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:54 AM
I'm not going into the past and what he might have done. I don't know, I'm pretty sure I was way to young to hear about in anyway. I'm just talking about right now. For the past 4 years from what I have seen and heard he has been quite a horseman...I should have thought about it more but I didn't. Right now this is what I have observed.

Being too young is no excuse for not knowing the past history of someone. He is by no means a Horseman. He makes me sick, just as his Dad does...and I used to be a huge fan of his Dad.

Roulett
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:54 AM
We've removed/edited several comments re: unproven accusations about past events related to specific individuals. If you want to discuss how substantiated past events affect opinions of Olympians as horsemen, etc., you're welcome to do so, though the topic has been addressed at length in previous threads.

Any discussion must be based upon proven facts and be related to the main topic of the thread.

Thanks,
Mod 1

Thank you

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:58 AM
Yea I don't understand how people kill horses just becasue they aren't working out or the owner overpaid and now the horse isn't performing and the trainer has to fix the problem they created.

Do you make a habit of libeling people or are you just incapable of distinguishing between two distinct individuals, one of whom (ML) had nothing to do with the insurance fraud issues? It is very damaging to make vague allusions to a crime; stop insinuating that McLain was involved with that.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:59 AM
Well, you might provide ALL the facts, instead of a select few, when throwing accusations around. The FACT is that the FEI inspectors claim they onserved pieces of plastic fall from ONE boot (kind of odd to put plastic only in one, but okay) and could not prove that he had used plastic in the boot or boots. The fact is that McLain and his groom took and passed polygraphs about the incident, and these test results were provided to the FEI. Now, if you also want to dispute the results of polygraphs, fine, but I noticed all of his detractors conveniently leave facts like that out when discussing the incident. And yes, it seriously bugs me to see ill-informed posts from people who clearly have never even met this person, when I and others have known him since he was a little kid and showed against him for many years.

Don't make assumptions that I have never met him or have been friends with women he has dated...I'm around the horse shows too:lol:

Ruby G. Weber
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:00 AM
Once again congratulations to our Team.

It's especially rewarding when all the ingredients needed to win a Gold medal come together at the right moment.

No doubt these riders, if not good horsemen themselves have someone on their team that is. And I also have no doubt each and every rider and their connections knows "you're only as good as your auto -MO - bile." Fortunately for HK 2008 they'll all drivin' Ferrari's.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:00 AM
Do you make a habit of libeling people or are you just incapable of distinguishing between two distinct individuals, one of whom (ML) had nothing to do with the insurance fraud issues? It is very damaging to make vague allusions to a crime; stop insinuating that McLain was involved with that.

Wasn't liabling anyone she was saying she couldn't believe people put plastic in horses boots and I was saying yea and I can't believe horse people kill their horses for insurance money...Point is putting plastic in the boots isn't all that shocking when horses have been killed for insurance money...

caffeinated
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:01 AM
What are the details concerning the spiked boots? How do you even do that to a pair of boots? Was he charged for doing that to his horse?


If I remember correctly, which I may not, at Aachen one of the inspector-type people saw plastic chips on the ground very near where they were taking Ward's horse's boots off. I'm not sure it was ever proven definitively that they were in the boots, and that's the story Mr. Ward stuck to (and his grooms, I believe). Someone earlier on this thread or one of the other McLain train wrecks mentioned he did take a polygraph about the matter and passed, though that's also not definitive.

Personally, I think he is an amazing, amazing rider, and his partnership with Sapphire nothing short of the stuff dreams are made of. Maybe I'm too willing to give benefit of the doubt, I don't know.

egontoast
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:03 AM
http://www.horsesdaily.com/news/showjumping/1999/wardfei.html

Pokey
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:04 AM
Oh for the love of pete - really people? Thread after thread after thread of this crap. Why now? MW goes out, does his job, does great, contributes to his team, and the witch hunt begins anew by a bunch of old biddy's and young know it all know nothings. You could all do well working for the tabloids - it suits you well.

This board must be chock full of angelic perfection with these posters, dismayed at the very whisper of anything they think that somebody may have said or done somewhere. Are you REALLY going to rely on an anonymous BB to supply you with "Facts" about someone you've never met, probably never will meet, and don't even begin to have any first hand knowledge of? Seriously? By people that don't even provide their real name?

Every professional and non-professional horse person in the business long enough has done something that some would find offensive. There are a few darlings of these Olympics that have done things that some would find offensive. But unless you were there to witness it yourself, or there are court documents that you can provide a direct link to - all this is, is equine tabloid bullshit. And unless you can tell me that you, nor your family, or neighbors, or puppies, or anyone in anyway associated with you, have never, not ever, done a single thing that someone, somewhere, could declare as horrid, what business do you have spewing forth anything at all?

Madeline
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:07 AM
Still waiting for Ridgeback to come up with all the other instances when Mclain was in trouble with the FEI. Starting to think that there may not have been any others...

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:08 AM
Wasn't liabling anyone she was saying she couldn't believe people put plastic in horses boots and I was saying yea and I can't believe horse people kill their horses for insurance money...Point is putting plastic in the boots isn't all that shocking when horses have been killed for insurance money...

For those unfamiliar with the insurance fraud scam, comparing the ALLEGED plastic incident with the horse killings can easily be read to insinuate that the same person was involved in both. If that was not your intent, you could have specified that Barney was the one implicated in the fraud. But that was not as fun as being deliberately vague, I suppose.

red mare
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:09 AM
:lol::lol::lol: Some horses are just happier then others and it doesn't always have anything to do with the rider..

Then you've never ridden a mare! Most of them either like you or they don't. And when they like you, they work their butts off for you. Clearly, Sapphire likes him.

Big congrats to all the members of TEAM GOLD!

jse
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:09 AM
I don't remember specifics I will ask around the horse show, do you remember what year he was set down for the chips?

How many of you people bashing Mclain can actually prove that he put chips in his horse's boots?
I don't think many of you can, I think you've only ever heard about it through people at horse shows. Ha! REALLY reliable sources of information don't ya think!?!?
I will be so glad when I'm not pregnant anymore and this board is no longer my relief from boredom because like some of you have mentioned, there is a lot of hateful venom here. No one can ever be happy. Or let alone just think about themselves for once instead of the mud on everyone elses boots.
I don't know much about the story, I don't follow Mclain or any news really about any of those BNT's that you guys all seem to idolize.
But what I do know after watching this guy is that he is an AMAZING rider and I love to watch him go.
Enough said.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:10 AM
I believe his horse also tested positive for cocaine several years ago.

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:11 AM
I swear the thought process displayed by some posters here is amazing to behold.

Facts seem to be annoying little things that can be ignored at will, innuendo is the preferred way to go, say whatever you want and cloak it with some incontrovertible statement like, I can't understand how people can kill a horse that doesn't work out."

In the forum who is going to argue that point?

The apparently irresistible urge to talk about other people negatively, to relentlessly impute bad motives and bad actions, to never forgive or forget, and to deny any possibility of redemption or reform depresses me.

Our horses are worthy of better people -- on all sides of this commentary.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:12 AM
For those unfamiliar with the insurance fraud scam, comparing the ALLEGED plastic incident with the horse killings can easily be read to insinuate that the same person was involved in both. If that was not your intent, you could have specified that Barney was the one implicated in the fraud. But that was not as fun as being deliberately vague, I suppose.

Sorry wasn't even talking about Barney sadly I had friends that I found out were part of it. Mclain would have been a kid when all that went down.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:12 AM
Someone earlier on this thread or one of the other McLain train wrecks mentioned he did take a polygraph about the matter and passed, though that's also not definitive.


That was me. Thank you for noticing; no one else wants to consider any possibility other than the guy is guilty, guilty, guilty. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree, don'tcha know. UGH! I suppose we should just have courts throw entire families in jail if one family member runs afoul of the law. I mean, if one did something, they must all be baddies, right? And actually, let's not bother having trials or anything, because if someone alleges something, it must be true, right? Nevermind if they can prove it, or there is contrary evidence or mitigating circumstances.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:13 AM
Then you've never ridden a mare! Most of them either like you or they don't. And when they like you, they work their butts off for you. Clearly, Sapphire likes him.

Big congrats to all the members of TEAM GOLD!

Yea I had a mare and she was a sweetie it was just who she was..

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:14 AM
Still waiting for Ridgeback to come up with all the other instances when Mclain was in trouble with the FEI. Starting to think that there may not have been any others...

Sweatpea you can keep waiting like I said I will ask around the horse show but I will be gone for a few days.. If I'm not mistaken I said two times maybe more wasn't sure. :lol::lol:

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:15 AM
I would say some of the people who know him, and the kind of person he is were on that medal podium with him. It was noticed by a Maclain Ward fan that the others celebrated together, while leaving him to himself. They had no clue of any history, but mentioned is casually to me yesterday as it puzzled them. A statement by the rest of the team? Seemed like there was no love lost.

poltroon
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:17 AM
Only a great horseman can keep a horse fit, game and soft eyed for the length of time McLain's kept Sapphire going. There is no faking the attitude a horse has at that level, other stuff maybe but that is one happy mare.

Quoted for truth. No warmblood mare is going to be jumping that well at the international level for two Olympic games and the years in between if she's not being treated right.

Madeline
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:17 AM
I believe his horse also tested positive for cocaine several years ago.

Date? Horse? Outcome? Or is this just "I heard this from someone at a horse show..."

Glimmerglass
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:18 AM
ridgeback I think you've made your point.

You don't like McLain Ward. I think we've all gotten the message. Beyond that is there anything else to add? Saying it over and over in some quasi debate by challenging everyone who has anything positive to say just seems like overkill. I’m not trying to call you out as plenty of people have cited their views as well but the relentless nature gets tiresome.

If someone says they admire his riding ability it's not the equivalent of casting a vote for him to be the next Pope.

He was acused of a violation of the FEI and while he denied the charge he did serve a penalty. I don't think anyone is sweeping that under the rug. However to keep some objectivity a list of riders with FEI violations is long from Jessica Kurten (IRE) to Ludger Beerbaum (GER), et al.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:18 AM
If the USEF suspends a team rider, you can bet THEY believe the evidence is serious against that person. I believe he was suspended for both the pointed chips, and the cocaine drug test drawn from his horse.

ponyjumper4
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:19 AM
This just goes to show how poor American Society is. You can't prove he did it, but he must have because someone else said he did. It's not possible that he is nothing like his father, or that if he did spike the boots, that he learned from it and his mistakes and made a change in his life for the better. Nope, he's just a rotten apple. Good to know everyone else is so perfect here.

Madeline
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:20 AM
Sweatpea you can keep waiting like I said I will ask around the horse show but I will be gone for a few days.. If I'm not mistaken I said two times maybe more wasn't sure. :lol::lol:

So you haven't a clue and think it's funny to toss out unsubstantiated allegations? Ha ha???

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:20 AM
I would say some of the people who know him, and the kind of person he is were on that medal podium with him. It was noticed by a Maclain Ward fan that the others celebrated together, while leaving him to himself. They had no clue of any history, but mentioned is casually to me yesterday as it puzzled them. A statement by the rest of the team? Seemed like there was no love lost.

As I was not in China hanging out in a bar with the Team this week I have no idea who partied with whom. How is it that you have any idea whether they celebrated together or if not, why not? Speculating about that is like the thread analyzing whether McLain demonstrated a sufficient level of patriotism by his demeanor on the podium. It is really absurd.

Beverley
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:21 AM
And offering a passing observation.

I remember the chips in boots incident and as noted by the link posted above it did earn McClain a sanction from the FEI.

He is by no means the first Olympic caliber rider to get caught up in such shenanigans, only one of the latest. Nevertheless that sort of history gives me pause (in any sport) where the athlete is given the high honor of representing our nation.

I recognize that these days in society all sorts of athletes commit all sorts of crimes (think football and drugs) and often get a faux 'lifetime ban' followed by reinstatement within months. That doesn't mean I like it or have to get comfortable with it.

I'll root for 'our team' whoever is on it. But for me personally, the infamous boot incident, coupled with all that litigation in the late 90s, is the reason I no longer send my tiny financial contribution to the USEF, where I had been a member of the old USET for decades.

CoolMeadows
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:22 AM
Well, this thread is headed the way of the others so before it has to be done away with, I'm adding my CONGRATS TEAM!! And THANK YOU :)

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:22 AM
How many of you people bashing Mclain can actually prove that he put chips in his horse's boots?
I don't think many of you can, I think you've only ever heard about it through people at horse shows. Ha! REALLY reliable sources of information don't ya think!?!?
I will be so glad when I'm not pregnant anymore and this board is no longer my relief from boredom because like some of you have mentioned, there is a lot of hateful venom here. No one can ever be happy. Or let alone just think about themselves for once instead of the mud on everyone elses boots.
I don't know much about the story, I don't follow Mclain or any news really about any of those BNT's that you guys all seem to idolize.
But what I do know after watching this guy is that he is an AMAZING rider and I love to watch him go.
Enough said.

Press Release:

The American Horse Shows Association (AHSA), the National Equestrian Federation of the United States, announced Wednesday that following a meeting of its Hearing Committee, two plea agreements entered into by McLain Ward of Brewster, N.Y., were approved, and he has been suspended from all of the AHSA's recognized competitions in the United States and fined a total of $13,000.

The signed agreements were also entered into by the AHSA's Executive Director, Kevin Carlon, as specified by the rules regarding plea agreements. They eliminated the necessity of a formal hearing, which had been scheduled for New York on Monday, December 13, 1999. The hearing had been noticed based on formal charges the AHSA issued in the wake of actions by the sport's international federation, the Federation Equestre Internationale (FEI), to discipline Ward for alleged infractions of FEI rules at a major international event at Aachen, Germany, in June. Although Mr. Ward has denied any knowledge of or involvement in any FEI rule infraction, he acknowledges in the plea that as rider he was "the person responsible" under FEI rules. The AHSA's charges were based on reciprocity between the AHSA and the FEI in enforcing the sport's rules, as well as alleged violations of the AHSA/USET (United States Equestrian Team) Code of Conduct, which all athletes representing the USA in international competition are required to sign and observe.

The AHSA's suspension begins on the date set by the FEI, Sept. 20, 1999, and continues until May 19, 2000, unless it is reduced by the FEI or the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), before which Ward has an appeal pending. Ward has stated that he has not competed in national or international competition after Sept. 20, pending his appeal, and the AHSA accepted that representation. The FEI imposed costs and a fine totaling CHF $7,500 (approximately $4,500 U.S.) and the AHSA's fine of $10,000 in the reciprocity case is in addition to that amount. Should the CAS overturn the FEI's action in its entirety, the AHSA has agreed to waive the fine and the suspension. Should the CAS or the FEI reduce the time of the suspension, the AHSA has agreed to end its suspension on the date set by the CAS or FEI, but the fine will not be reduced unless the FEI penalty is overturned in its entirety.

Ward also faced separate charges for a violation of the AHSA's Drugs and Medications Rules, as trainer of a horse in an Amateur/Owner Jumper class at the American Gold Cup in September 1999 which tested positive for metabolites of a forbidden substance (cocaine). As part of that plea agreement approved by the Hearing Committee, while denying he administered any forbidden substance to the horse under his care, Ward accepted his responsibility under AHSA rules as trainer. He was fined an additional $3,000, and suspended for one additional month, to be served following the conclusion of the pending FEI/AHSA suspension of 8 months. Ward's fines are payable to the AHSA on or before Feb. 1, 2000.

In commenting on the resolution of these cases, the President of the AHSA, Alan F. Balch, said that "this has been a very difficult and time-consuming process for all concerned. Under the rules, the Executive Director has the responsibility to issue charges, and then explore plea agreements such as the ones reached here. But the ultimate responsibility of judgment rests with the Hearing Committee, which is composed of volunteers and is entirely independent, which must approve plea agreements before they become effective.

The special five-member hearing panel which approved the settlements included both eligible international athletes and USET trustees, as required by the rules in certain cases involving international competition. Mrs. T.V.W. Cushny (a trustee of USET) chaired the panel, joined by athletes David O'Connor (USET trustee) and Michael Poulin, as well as Jessica Ransehausen (USET trustee) and Linda Zang. The panel was appointed by the co-chairs of the AHSA Hearing Committee, following consultation with both Balch and Finn M.W. Caspersen, Chairman and President of USET, as provided for in the rules.

"The very idea of a settlement instead of a full hearing," Balch added, "was a concern to many of us, including our Executive Director, who sought advice from our officers and attorneys. However, since the rules specifically provide for the possibility of a settlement in these cases, we agreed that it was necessary and appropriate to consider settlements, provided that the Hearing Committee independently approve any settlement reached, which is also a requirement of the rules. While I can't speak for any of the members of the panel, and did not participate in its deliberation in these cases, as a long time member of that committee, I am certain that they considered all the facts and all the precedents from every conceivable point of view, and that they felt this was a just outcome. This panel was composed of exceptionally experienced people, and I am entirely confident in their judgment. They take their responsibilities very, very seriously. And from what I know of the lengthy process which led to the agreements, it appears to have been agonizingly difficult for both the AHSA's representatives and Ward's."

kbbarn
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:24 AM
Every professional and non-professional horse person in the business long enough has done something that some would find offensive.

True. The professionals who are in the spotlight get grilled on such things, yet there is probably some backyard owner/wanna-be trainer who treats their horses terribly just to make a buck but no-one sees it so not a big deal.

These Olympians are professionals and in the horse business AND making $$ at it. Does not mean I agree with 'assumed' tactics but I do agree that I am jealous that they get to do horse stuff all day long and I have to sit in my office 5 days a week! I think that is what causes some of these threads that say how horrible these professionals are - Jealously that we ourselves are not able to be professionals and in the spotlight! On the other hand, if you are in the spotlight, you should always be aware of people watching so better do your best to behave. Then again, for the professionals, this is their lively hood and clients want results and want to their horse/investment to win.

Personally -Mclain is a nice rider. Never heard about the boot thing so not going to make a judgment. I do have feelings towards some training methods like Anky's and the rollkur/hyperflexion. I think that truly sucks and is just a way to speed along the training process to get faster results, but then again, I am a Walter Zettl fan. I do not think Amy tyron should have been the US choice for eventing, her riding is stiff and not that great IMO, but the US picked professionals who they thought could get the job done. It is about the medals.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:26 AM
ridgeback I think you've made your point.

You don't like McLain Ward. I think we've all gotten the message. Beyond that is there anything else to add? Saying it over and over in some quasi debate by challenging everyone who has anything positive to say just seems like overkill. I’m not trying to call you out as plenty of people have cited their views as well but the relentless nature gets tiresome.

If someone says they admire his riding ability it's not the equivalent of casting a vote for him to be the next Pope.

He was acused of a violation of the FEI and while he denied the charge he did serve a penalty. I don't think anyone is sweeping that under the rug. However to keep some objectivity a list of riders with FEI violations is long from Jessica Kurten (IRE) to Ludger Beerbaum (GER), et al.

You are incorrect I don't dislike Mclain I dislike things he has done.. The debate was if he was a good horseman or not.

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:29 AM
So, the evidence is -- someone who doesn't know any of the team members watched them on TV for a few moments, thought that MW was not a friend of the others, mentioned that to you -- and therefore we know "the kind of person he is."

Wow!

Do you make these kinds of judgments about everyone is your life?

jse
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:31 AM
Press Release:

The American Horse Shows Association (AHSA), the National Equestrian Federation of the United States, announced Wednesday that following a meeting of its Hearing Committee, two plea agreements entered into by McLain Ward of Brewster, N.Y., were approved, and he has been suspended from all of the AHSA's recognized competitions in the United States and fined a total of $13,000.

The signed agreements were also entered into by the AHSA's Executive Director, Kevin Carlon, as specified by the rules regarding plea agreements. They eliminated the necessity of a formal hearing, which had been scheduled for New York on Monday, December 13, 1999. The hearing had been noticed based on formal charges the AHSA issued in the wake of actions by the sport's international federation, the Federation Equestre Internationale (FEI), to discipline Ward for alleged infractions of FEI rules at a major international event at Aachen, Germany, in June. Although Mr. Ward has denied any knowledge of or involvement in any FEI rule infraction, he acknowledges in the plea that as rider he was "the person responsible" under FEI rules. The AHSA's charges were based on reciprocity between the AHSA and the FEI in enforcing the sport's rules, as well as alleged violations of the AHSA/USET (United States Equestrian Team) Code of Conduct, which all athletes representing the USA in international competition are required to sign and observe.

The AHSA's suspension begins on the date set by the FEI, Sept. 20, 1999, and continues until May 19, 2000, unless it is reduced by the FEI or the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), before which Ward has an appeal pending. Ward has stated that he has not competed in national or international competition after Sept. 20, pending his appeal, and the AHSA accepted that representation. The FEI imposed costs and a fine totaling CHF $7,500 (approximately $4,500 U.S.) and the AHSA's fine of $10,000 in the reciprocity case is in addition to that amount. Should the CAS overturn the FEI's action in its entirety, the AHSA has agreed to waive the fine and the suspension. Should the CAS or the FEI reduce the time of the suspension, the AHSA has agreed to end its suspension on the date set by the CAS or FEI, but the fine will not be reduced unless the FEI penalty is overturned in its entirety.

Ward also faced separate charges for a violation of the AHSA's Drugs and Medications Rules, as trainer of a horse in an Amateur/Owner Jumper class at the American Gold Cup in September 1999 which tested positive for metabolites of a forbidden substance (cocaine). As part of that plea agreement approved by the Hearing Committee, while denying he administered any forbidden substance to the horse under his care, Ward accepted his responsibility under AHSA rules as trainer. He was fined an additional $3,000, and suspended for one additional month, to be served following the conclusion of the pending FEI/AHSA suspension of 8 months. Ward's fines are payable to the AHSA on or before Feb. 1, 2000.

In commenting on the resolution of these cases, the President of the AHSA, Alan F. Balch, said that "this has been a very difficult and time-consuming process for all concerned. Under the rules, the Executive Director has the responsibility to issue charges, and then explore plea agreements such as the ones reached here. But the ultimate responsibility of judgment rests with the Hearing Committee, which is composed of volunteers and is entirely independent, which must approve plea agreements before they become effective.

The special five-member hearing panel which approved the settlements included both eligible international athletes and USET trustees, as required by the rules in certain cases involving international competition. Mrs. T.V.W. Cushny (a trustee of USET) chaired the panel, joined by athletes David O'Connor (USET trustee) and Michael Poulin, as well as Jessica Ransehausen (USET trustee) and Linda Zang. The panel was appointed by the co-chairs of the AHSA Hearing Committee, following consultation with both Balch and Finn M.W. Caspersen, Chairman and President of USET, as provided for in the rules.

"The very idea of a settlement instead of a full hearing," Balch added, "was a concern to many of us, including our Executive Director, who sought advice from our officers and attorneys. However, since the rules specifically provide for the possibility of a settlement in these cases, we agreed that it was necessary and appropriate to consider settlements, provided that the Hearing Committee independently approve any settlement reached, which is also a requirement of the rules. While I can't speak for any of the members of the panel, and did not participate in its deliberation in these cases, as a long time member of that committee, I am certain that they considered all the facts and all the precedents from every conceivable point of view, and that they felt this was a just outcome. This panel was composed of exceptionally experienced people, and I am entirely confident in their judgment. They take their responsibilities very, very seriously. And from what I know of the lengthy process which led to the agreements, it appears to have been agonizingly difficult for both the AHSA's representatives and Ward's."

Do you know what the world "allegedly" means?
Here dictionary.com is wonderful:
alleged - adj. Represented as existing or as being as described but not so proved; supposed.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:31 AM
As I was not in China hanging out in a bar with the Team this week I have no idea who partied with whom. How is it that you have any idea whether they celebrated together or if not, why not?

I was specifically talking about the "celebrating together" on the podium.

caffeinated
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:32 AM
I would say some of the people who know him, and the kind of person he is were on that medal podium with him. It was noticed by a Maclain Ward fan that the others celebrated together, while leaving him to himself.

Maybe he's just not a hugger.

Or maybe he has a sucky personality. So what? 99% of the horse community is crazy.

And as others have pointed out, plenty of other competitors have had their run ins with the FEI. Our own chef d'equipe was involved in a horrible metal pole incident. One of the Canadian riders has sure had his share of drug violations and set downs, yet is not inspiring multiple train wrecks where people make vague statements to associate SOMEONE ELSE'S crimes to the person in question.

Usually I can enjoy a good train wreck, and the patriotism thread struck me as hilarious, but this really is like a lynch mob.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:33 AM
So, the evidence is -- someone who doesn't know any of the team members watched them on TV for a few moments, thought that MW was not a friend of the others, mentioned that to you -- and therefore we know "the kind of person he is."

Wow!

Do you make these kinds of judgments about everyone is your life?

The people I was speaking to are the ones that drew the conclusons. I just informed them of possibly why.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:34 AM
If the USEF suspends a team rider, you can bet THEY believe the evidence is serious against that person. I believe he was suspended for both the pointed chips, and the cocaine drug test drawn from his horse.

Fairview, in fact the USEF reached a settlement with Mclain regarding the drug charge -- and settlements are unusual. He was confronted with a positive result, and under the USEF rules he was responsible as trainer. He and the owner denied drugging the horse (Benetton).

Right around the same time that incident occurred, similar ones were occurring on racetracks and while initially people were being accused of drugging their horses, it was later discovered that trace amounts of cocaine on the grooms' hands -- either from using or dealing -- were contaminating the feed. It is not unheard of for PEOPLE to use cocaine on the horse show circuit. Though I am obviously not condoning that conduct, it is a possible explanation for how the result turned up positive (and BTW, trainers/competitors know that if they win they are very likely to be drug-tested; you'd have to be a moron to give an obvious drug like cocaine to a horse if you were looking to cheat, and at the time (circa 1999), ML KNEW that he was being watched unusually closely because of his father's reputation).


People are also much more aware, now, of incidents of lab contamination and false positives -- which happen frequently, especially given how sensitive the tests are. That is another possible explanation. Please, look into the Duke rape case if you don't believe me. I recently sat through a 3 hour presentation regarding false positives related to DNA testing that was mind-boggling.

hedmbl
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:35 AM
I was specifically talking about the "celebrating together" on the podium.

From the few times I've met Ward I can tell you he's a cool customer. I would have been surprised to see him hugging and jumping up and down in excitement...it just wouldn't mesh with his personality. Lets not make judgements based on hug counts.

ETA: I understand the celebration observation wasn't necessarily your opinion, Fairview...just wanted to throw this out there...this thread is amazing and not in a good way.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:39 AM
Our own chef d'equipe was involved in a horrible metal pole incident. .

Just to add to that list...
A top junior hunter, Rain Forest, was shot dead by one of GM's illegal immigrant grooms at a horse show during an argument about a Poker game, Then there was that problem with Grand Sabre, who became ill at a horse show and died as a result of GM's and Chris Kappler's negligence, later proved in court and resulting in a judgment in favor of the owner.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:43 AM
Do you know what the world "allegedly" means?
Here dictionary.com is wonderful:
alleged - adj. Represented as existing or as being as described but not so proved; supposed.

HERE YOU GO;)

Horse Show Notices
The Hearing Committee received and considered a plea tendered by Mr. McLain Ward of Brewster, New York, pursuant to which he acknowledged that he was the rider of the horse BENETON at CHIO Aachen on June 15, 1999 (the “Competition”) which was an international event organized under the authority of the Federation Equestre Internationale (the “FEI”), and was conducted under the FEI Statutes, General Regulations and Rules.

On June 15, 1999, it was reported that, during a bandage/boot control inspection at the Competition, two small, pointy pieces of plastic had been seen to fall from BENETON's right front boot. Thereafter, BENETON and Mr. Ward were disqualified from the Competition.

On October 22, 1999, after a hearing on September 20, 1999, the FEI Judicial Committee found that Mr. Ward, in his capacity as the Person Responsible for BENETON at the Competition on June 15, 1999, had acted in violation of Article 143 of the FEI's General Regulations, Jumping Regulations Article 243, and Veterinary Regulations Code of Conduct paragraph 8 and Annex XV.1. The Judicial Committee suspended Mr. Ward from participation in FEI recognized competitions for eight (8) months, with such suspension deemed to have begun on September 20, 1999, and thus terminating on May 19, 2000. The Judicial Committee also imposed a fine of CHF 2,500, and costs of CHF 5,000 toward a portion of costs of the judicial procedure, pursuant to Article 174.10 of the General Regulations.

Mr. Ward voluntarily ceased participating in FEI-recognized competitions after June 15, 1999, and he has represented to the AHSA that since September 20, 1999, he and his horses have voluntarily refrained from participating in any AHSA Recognized competitions.

Mr. Ward has appealed the FEI decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), and has requested an expedited hearing. Mr. Ward has requested that the CAS reverse the findings and decision of the Judicial Committee or, alternatively, that it reduce his suspension to a period of three (3) months effective as of September 20, 1999 and terminating December 19, 1999.

In the plea agreement, Mr. Ward states that he has consistently denied that any plastic pieces were in the right front boot of BENETON and thus maintains that it could not have been the case that they fell from the right front boot during the bandage/boot control at the Competition. Mr. Ward also states that he has consistently denied that he instructed anyone to put any prohibited object in BENETON's boot, that he himself put any prohibited objects in the horse's boot, that, as he completed the competition on BENETON, he knew that any prohibited object had been put in the horse's boot. Mr. Ward states that he submitted to the FEI Judicial Committee the results of a polygraph examination of Mr. Ward and his groom, Lee McKeever, and Mr. Ward contends that the results support his position that he had no knowledge of or responsibility regarding the plastic pieces. However, Mr. Ward acknowledges for purposes of his plea agreement, that as the Person Responsible for BENETON at the Competition, pursuant to Article 142.2 of the FEI's General Regulations, he would be held responsible for the horse's condition in the event that CAS rules that the factual determination of the FEI Judicial Committee should be permitted to stand.

The AHSA Charge alleges that Mr. Ward's conduct as Person Responsible for BENETON at the Competition violated AHSA Rule VI, Chapter IV, Article 614 (Reciprocity), Rule VII, Chapter I, Article 702 (Violations), and the AHSA/USET Code of Conduct.

Mr. Ward acknowledges, for purposes of his plea agreement, that the findings of the FEI Judicial Committee would form the basis for a finding by the AHSA Hearing Committee that he violated the AHSA rules and the AHSA/USET Code of Conduct specified in the Charge.

Accordingly, by vote of the members of the Hearing Committee present at the meeting, it was resolved to approve and accept the plea agreement, and therefore it was further resolved that

a. Mr. Ward, during the period of the stated suspension, be found not in good standing and that he be suspended from competing or taking any part whatsoever in Recognized competitions as an exhibitor, participant or spectator pursuant to the provisions of Rule VII, Article 703.1(b) and that any horse or horses completely or in part owned, leased or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his, or shown in any name or for his credit or reputation whether such interest was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter, be suspended from competing or taking any part whatsoever in Recognized competitions pursuant to the provisions of Rule VII, Article 703.1(c), for eight (8) months, commencing on September 20, 1999 and terminating at midnight on May 19, 2000, subject, however, to any determination by the CAS upon appeal or the determination of any other appeal, or any further determination by the FEI, to the extent that such determinations reverse, terminate and/or reduce the term of Mr. Ward's FEI suspension, in which case the AHSA suspension would be terminated or reduced accordingly; and

b. Mr. Ward be fined, pursuant to AHSA Rule VII, Article 703.1(j), the sum of $10,000, such fine to be paid to the AHSA by February 1, 2000, and that should said fine not be paid in full prior to the termination of the aforesaid suspension period, said suspension will remain in effect until such time as it is paid. Said fine will be remitted to Mr. Ward in the event that the CAS or any other appeal decision reverses the findings of violation of FEI rules and the suspension and fine imposed by the FEI.

The Hearing Committee received and considered a plea tendered by Mr. McLain Ward of Brewster, New York pursuant to which he acknowledged: i) that he was the trainer of the horse OLIVER at the American Gold Cup Horse Show held on September 18, 1999; ii) that OLIVER showed in Class 10; and iii) that the urine sample collected from OLIVER tested positive for metabolites of cocaine.

WARD vigorously denies having administered cocaine to OLIVER or having any knowledge as to anyone having administered the drug or how the drug may have been administered to OLIVER or how the horse may have come into contact with the drug, but does not contest that as the trainer of OLIVER he is held responsible for the horse's condition under the AHSA's Rules. Accordingly, by vote of the members of the Hearing Committee present at the meeting, it was resolved to approve and accept this Plea Agreement, and therefore, it was further resolved that Mr. Ward be found not in good standing and that he be suspended from competing or taking part whatsoever in recognized competitions as an exhibitor, participant or spectator pursuant to the provisions of Rule VII, Article 703.1(b) and that any horse or horses, completely or in part owned, leased, or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his, or shown in any name or for his credit or reputation, whether such interest was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter, be suspended from competing or taking any part whatsoever in recognized competitions pursuant to the provisions of Rule VII, Article 703.1(c) for one month, commencing on April 1, 2000 and terminating at midnight on April 30, 2000, provided Mr. Ward is not under suspension pursuant to an FEI Violation and/or an AHSA/USET Code of Conduct Violation and/or any other violation. If Mr. Ward is under suspension in April, 2000 for an FEI violation and/or an AHSA/USET Code of Conduct Violation and/or any other violation, he instead shall be suspended for two (2) months commencing October 2, 2000 and terminating at midnight on November 30, 2000. Furthermore, he shall be fined the sum of $3,000.00 pursuant to the provisions of Rule VII, Article 703.1(j), said fine to be paid to the Association's office by February 1, 2000. After paying such fines and serving such suspensions, said trainer will, barring any further determinations or findings of a violation, be restored to good standing with the AHSA.

The Hearing Committee also received and considered a plea tendered by MS. SHARON DAUK of Ridgefield, Connecticut, the owner of OLIVER for all purposes relevant to the exhibition of said horse at the American Gold Cup Horse Show on September 18, 1999. DAUK vigorously denies having any knowledge of, or responsibility for, the presence of the metabolites of cocaine in the urine sample collected from OLIVER but does not contest that the presence of such metabolites in the horse in Class 10 at the American Gold Cup Horse Show is a violation of the AHSA's rules which requires disqualification of the horse from any winnings at said show. Accordingly, by unanimous vote of the Hearing Committee present at the meeting, it was resolved that DAUK must return all trophies, prizes, ribbons and monies, if any, won by OLIVER at the American Gold Cup Horse Show and must pay a $50.00 fee to the Show in connection with this penalty pursuant to the provisions of Rule IV, Article 406.5, said winnings, if any to be returned to the Show by February 1, 2000.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:43 AM
Maybe he's just not a hugger.
.

I'm not a hugger either. I reserve my hugs for my horses. I don't like it when acquaintances try to squish me ; )

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:46 AM
I would say some of the people who know him, and the kind of person he is were on that medal podium with him. It was noticed by a Maclain Ward fan that the others celebrated together, while leaving him to himself. They had no clue of any history, but mentioned is casually to me yesterday as it puzzled them. A statement by the rest of the team? Seemed like there was no love lost.


You said it.

jse
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:47 AM
HERE YOU GO;)

Horse Show Notices
The Hearing Committee received and considered a plea tendered by Mr. McLain Ward of Brewster, New York, pursuant to which he acknowledged that he was the rider of the horse BENETON at CHIO Aachen on June 15, 1999 (the “Competition”) which was an international event organized under the authority of the Federation Equestre Internationale (the “FEI”), and was conducted under the FEI Statutes, General Regulations and Rules.

On June 15, 1999, it was reported that, during a bandage/boot control inspection at the Competition, two small, pointy pieces of plastic had been seen to fall from BENETON's right front boot. Thereafter, BENETON and Mr. Ward were disqualified from the Competition.

On October 22, 1999, after a hearing on September 20, 1999, the FEI Judicial Committee found that Mr. Ward, in his capacity as the Person Responsible for BENETON at the Competition on June 15, 1999, had acted in violation of Article 143 of the FEI's General Regulations, Jumping Regulations Article 243, and Veterinary Regulations Code of Conduct paragraph 8 and Annex XV.1. The Judicial Committee suspended Mr. Ward from participation in FEI recognized competitions for eight (8) months, with such suspension deemed to have begun on September 20, 1999, and thus terminating on May 19, 2000. The Judicial Committee also imposed a fine of CHF 2,500, and costs of CHF 5,000 toward a portion of costs of the judicial procedure, pursuant to Article 174.10 of the General Regulations.

Mr. Ward voluntarily ceased participating in FEI-recognized competitions after June 15, 1999, and he has represented to the AHSA that since September 20, 1999, he and his horses have voluntarily refrained from participating in any AHSA Recognized competitions.

Mr. Ward has appealed the FEI decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), and has requested an expedited hearing. Mr. Ward has requested that the CAS reverse the findings and decision of the Judicial Committee or, alternatively, that it reduce his suspension to a period of three (3) months effective as of September 20, 1999 and terminating December 19, 1999.

In the plea agreement, Mr. Ward states that he has consistently denied that any plastic pieces were in the right front boot of BENETON and thus maintains that it could not have been the case that they fell from the right front boot during the bandage/boot control at the Competition. Mr. Ward also states that he has consistently denied that he instructed anyone to put any prohibited object in BENETON's boot, that he himself put any prohibited objects in the horse's boot, that, as he completed the competition on BENETON, he knew that any prohibited object had been put in the horse's boot. Mr. Ward states that he submitted to the FEI Judicial Committee the results of a polygraph examination of Mr. Ward and his groom, Lee McKeever, and Mr. Ward contends that the results support his position that he had no knowledge of or responsibility regarding the plastic pieces. However, Mr. Ward acknowledges for purposes of his plea agreement, that as the Person Responsible for BENETON at the Competition, pursuant to Article 142.2 of the FEI's General Regulations, he would be held responsible for the horse's condition in the event that CAS rules that the factual determination of the FEI Judicial Committee should be permitted to stand.

The AHSA Charge alleges that Mr. Ward's conduct as Person Responsible for BENETON at the Competition violated AHSA Rule VI, Chapter IV, Article 614 (Reciprocity), Rule VII, Chapter I, Article 702 (Violations), and the AHSA/USET Code of Conduct.

Mr. Ward acknowledges, for purposes of his plea agreement, that the findings of the FEI Judicial Committee would form the basis for a finding by the AHSA Hearing Committee that he violated the AHSA rules and the AHSA/USET Code of Conduct specified in the Charge.

Accordingly, by vote of the members of the Hearing Committee present at the meeting, it was resolved to approve and accept the plea agreement, and therefore it was further resolved that

a. Mr. Ward, during the period of the stated suspension, be found not in good standing and that he be suspended from competing or taking any part whatsoever in Recognized competitions as an exhibitor, participant or spectator pursuant to the provisions of Rule VII, Article 703.1(b) and that any horse or horses completely or in part owned, leased or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his, or shown in any name or for his credit or reputation whether such interest was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter, be suspended from competing or taking any part whatsoever in Recognized competitions pursuant to the provisions of Rule VII, Article 703.1(c), for eight (8) months, commencing on September 20, 1999 and terminating at midnight on May 19, 2000, subject, however, to any determination by the CAS upon appeal or the determination of any other appeal, or any further determination by the FEI, to the extent that such determinations reverse, terminate and/or reduce the term of Mr. Ward's FEI suspension, in which case the AHSA suspension would be terminated or reduced accordingly; and

b. Mr. Ward be fined, pursuant to AHSA Rule VII, Article 703.1(j), the sum of $10,000, such fine to be paid to the AHSA by February 1, 2000, and that should said fine not be paid in full prior to the termination of the aforesaid suspension period, said suspension will remain in effect until such time as it is paid. Said fine will be remitted to Mr. Ward in the event that the CAS or any other appeal decision reverses the findings of violation of FEI rules and the suspension and fine imposed by the FEI.

The Hearing Committee received and considered a plea tendered by Mr. McLain Ward of Brewster, New York pursuant to which he acknowledged: i) that he was the trainer of the horse OLIVER at the American Gold Cup Horse Show held on September 18, 1999; ii) that OLIVER showed in Class 10; and iii) that the urine sample collected from OLIVER tested positive for metabolites of cocaine.

WARD vigorously denies having administered cocaine to OLIVER or having any knowledge as to anyone having administered the drug or how the drug may have been administered to OLIVER or how the horse may have come into contact with the drug, but does not contest that as the trainer of OLIVER he is held responsible for the horse's condition under the AHSA's Rules. Accordingly, by vote of the members of the Hearing Committee present at the meeting, it was resolved to approve and accept this Plea Agreement, and therefore, it was further resolved that Mr. Ward be found not in good standing and that he be suspended from competing or taking part whatsoever in recognized competitions as an exhibitor, participant or spectator pursuant to the provisions of Rule VII, Article 703.1(b) and that any horse or horses, completely or in part owned, leased, or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his, or shown in any name or for his credit or reputation, whether such interest was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter, be suspended from competing or taking any part whatsoever in recognized competitions pursuant to the provisions of Rule VII, Article 703.1(c) for one month, commencing on April 1, 2000 and terminating at midnight on April 30, 2000, provided Mr. Ward is not under suspension pursuant to an FEI Violation and/or an AHSA/USET Code of Conduct Violation and/or any other violation. If Mr. Ward is under suspension in April, 2000 for an FEI violation and/or an AHSA/USET Code of Conduct Violation and/or any other violation, he instead shall be suspended for two (2) months commencing October 2, 2000 and terminating at midnight on November 30, 2000. Furthermore, he shall be fined the sum of $3,000.00 pursuant to the provisions of Rule VII, Article 703.1(j), said fine to be paid to the Association's office by February 1, 2000. After paying such fines and serving such suspensions, said trainer will, barring any further determinations or findings of a violation, be restored to good standing with the AHSA.

The Hearing Committee also received and considered a plea tendered by MS. SHARON DAUK of Ridgefield, Connecticut, the owner of OLIVER for all purposes relevant to the exhibition of said horse at the American Gold Cup Horse Show on September 18, 1999. DAUK vigorously denies having any knowledge of, or responsibility for, the presence of the metabolites of cocaine in the urine sample collected from OLIVER but does not contest that the presence of such metabolites in the horse in Class 10 at the American Gold Cup Horse Show is a violation of the AHSA's rules which requires disqualification of the horse from any winnings at said show. Accordingly, by unanimous vote of the Hearing Committee present at the meeting, it was resolved that DAUK must return all trophies, prizes, ribbons and monies, if any, won by OLIVER at the American Gold Cup Horse Show and must pay a $50.00 fee to the Show in connection with this penalty pursuant to the provisions of Rule IV, Article 406.5, said winnings, if any to be returned to the Show by February 1, 2000.

These articles mean nothing. My point is, you're reading this on the internet,and you're hearing things from horse show circuit people (gossip godesses) you were not there and all of these accusations are ALLEGED accusations. Someone SAW something come out of the boot, and like someone else said, someone at that level is not going to purposefully drug their horse with a substance like cocaine when they are being tested so thoroughly. That's common sense.
And 1999 is SO ten years ago....get over it by now.

nycjumper
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:47 AM
*shaking head*

It's McLain. Not Maclain, not mclain, not any other variation. McLain.

This & the 3 or 4 other threads bashing him are a little bit much no? I don't know that I've ever seen more vultures out about a person - this may beat the Paul V threads.

Like him as a person or don't but lets try to give credit where credit is due. He's one of the best riders out there, he's playing by all the rules & has for a long time & he rides the hell out of what is undoubtedly a very difficult horse & has kept her at the top of the game for 5 or 6 years now so obviously he and his team are doing everything right from a horsecare persepctive.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:51 AM
This thread is not about his riding ability, but about claiming he is a true horseman. There is a difference. Start a thread about his riding ability if you want credit for that. The horsemanship is definitely in question.

Beverley
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:52 AM
These articles mean nothing. My point is, you're reading this on the internet,and you're hearing things from horse show circuit people (gossip godesses) you were not there and all of these accusations are ALLEGED accusations. Someone SAW something come out of the boot, and like someone else said, someone at that level is not going to purposefully drug their horse with a substance like cocaine when they are being tested so thoroughly. That's common sense.
And 1999 is SO ten years ago....get over it by now.


FYI, this is no internet legend, it was reported in the Chronicle of the Horse at the time.:)

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:55 AM
These articles mean nothing. My point is, you're reading this on the internet,and you're hearing things from horse show circuit people (gossip godesses) you were not there and all of these accusations are ALLEGED accusations. Someone SAW something come out of the boot, and like someone else said, someone at that level is not going to purposefully drug their horse with a substance like cocaine when they are being tested so thoroughly. That's common sense.
And 1999 is SO ten years ago....get over it by now.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want..:)

jse
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:55 AM
FYI, this is no internet legend, it was reported in the Chronicle of the Horse at the time.:)

So what...it's all media. Whenever has the media been correct? All they ever report is bad news....cause for some strange reason that's what everyone wants to hear.
Even still all the accusations pointed toward McLain Ward are merely ACCUSATIONS......and ALLEDED ACCUSATIONS at that. All of the articles state that. Can you read?

caffeinated
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:56 AM
FYI, this is no internet legend, it was reported in the Chronicle of the Horse at the time.:)

No one is saying it's legend- it's that even the stuff ridgeback pulled up did not definitively prove guilt. Even for the cocaine (someone the other day posted about an interesting case of horses from one trainer repeatedly testing for cocaine. they finally found it was because the grooms were using it, not because it was being given to the horses.) So yes, he got the suspensions, no one is arguing that, but it is all for alleged behavior, nothing that was proven definitively.

If nothing else, this all goes to show that the FEI needs its own "CSI"

jse
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:56 AM
You are entitled to believe whatever you want..:)

And so are you, however you have absolutely NO proof that any of this was actually ever true. You just read it on the internet or in the news paper and magazines and talk to all your hunter princess friends at all the HITS shows.

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:00 PM
Seems to me that the basis for MW's suspension is a theory of strict liability.

Something bad happened that was provable -- cocaine derivatives in the urine -- MW vigorously denies personal responsibility -- there is no proof about who caused the cocaine to be in the horse -- under the rules the trainer of the horse is liable for the condition of the horse, i.e., a positive drug test with no need of proof of the trainer actually doing the deed.

Simlar situaiton on the plastic chips -- the rider is responsible without need for direct proof of involvement. Seems like the facts in the boot case are a bit more uncertain but the basis for liability is similar.

Probably a good rule of liability in order to make horse health and safety be taken seriously but not a rule that necessarily produces a guilty party and that is exactly the point of such a rule.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:00 PM
And so are you, however you have absolutely NO proof that any of this was actually ever true. You just read it on the internet or in the news paper and magazines and talk to all your hunter princess friends at all the HITS shows.

No actually I don't really even care but when people call him a great horseman I have to disagree.. All I know the charges were filed he was suspended and fined..

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:06 PM
As long as these are discussions, we can discuss both sides of a viewpoint, but some just want others to shut up.

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:13 PM
The fact that the suspension happened is true.

But the fact of the suspension of a trainer or a rider in these cases, under the rule of strict liabiity, tells you nothing about who actually did the bad act.

In some cases the absolute truth of the matter may be that the rider or trainer charged is the evil doer (whether or not there is evidence to prove it). And in other cases, the rider or trainer may be completely innocent of doing the evil deed but is still "responsible" under the rule of strict liability.

This kind of rule is used in other contexts, too, such as hazardous wastes. The harm is considered so great that a landowner is liable even if the current landowner had nothing to do with the depositing of the wastes.

It's an allocation of liability based on the seriousness of the harm and not based on the culpability of the person designated as "responsible."

Pokey
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:14 PM
These aren't discussions. Discussions are conversations where people give and take, attempt to understand others points of view, and are meant to be pleasant or educational.

This is nothing more than people spewing personal opinions ad nauseum with no intention of taking into consideration anyone's opinions or thoughts other then their own. It's stubbornness, willfulness and ignorance at a reprehensible level, on a BB for all to see.

No one is changing any minds here. It will go back and forth until it's shut down too, and I hope that happens soon.

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:19 PM
These aren't discussions. Discussions are conversations where people give and take, attempt to understand others points of view, and are meant to be pleasant or educational.

This is nothing more than people spewing personal opinions ad nauseum with no intention of taking into consideration anyone's opinions or thoughts other then their own.

Ahh, so then political and religious discussions are not discussions either. ;)

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:27 PM
Regrettably too often they are not.

Most people are too defensive and insecure to actually discuss those topics and listen repsectfully to others' points of view.

Which is precisely why good manners cautions about talking about them.

But, you knew that already, I'm sure.

Pokey
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:33 PM
I'm trying to find the article that discusses "discussions", but the bottom line is - people cling to their own beliefs, seek out more information to support their beliefs, and seek out people that will support them too.

So no - politics and religion and McClain discussions will never be settled.

onthebit
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:35 PM
Some of our posters are so high and mighty they must be able to walk on water. McLain is not his father, and it would obviously take some horsemanship to keep Sapphire sound and happy at the top level for many years.

Doesn't anyone remember when Nicole Shahinian-Simpson had a horse test positive for cocaine? It was when she still rode for the Gonda family and they had the $$$ to hire a high-powered lawyer and fight the findings. And it did come out that trace amounts on a groom's hands could have caused the positive test. The groom wouldn't even had to been using themselves, but handled money that had also been handled by a cocaine user. They won this battle and the ruling was thrown out.

I have no doubt that McLain has probably made some mistakes in his life, but no one is perfect. He lives under a microscope and has had a clean record for many years now. When is it enough for some of you?

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:49 PM
. . . All I know the charges were filed he was suspended and fined..

That is all you know. Exactly!

Under strict liability you do not know whether MW, as the trainer and rider, had anything to do with the activities making the violation.

Are you getting this?

Under the rule he is a "responsible" party but that has nothing to do with "guilt" in the criminal law or even conversational sense.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:52 PM
That is all you know. Exactly!

Under strict liability you do not know whether MW, as the trainer and rider, had anything to do with the activities making the violation.

Are you getting this?

Under the rule he is a "responsible" party but that has nothing to do with "guilt" in the criminal law or even conversational sense.

Believe what you want you are entitled to that:) Like someone said we aren't going to change anyone's mind...OJ was found innocent so anything is possible:lol::lol::lol:

kkj
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:52 PM
That was me. Thank you for noticing; no one else wants to consider any possibility other than the guy is guilty, guilty, guilty. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree, don'tcha know. UGH! I suppose we should just have courts throw entire families in jail if one family member runs afoul of the law. I mean, if one did something, they must all be baddies, right? And actually, let's not bother having trials or anything, because if someone alleges something, it must be true, right? Nevermind if they can prove it, or there is contrary evidence or mitigating circumstances.

Listen I will not normally blame the son for the sins of the father. A lot of us have not the best families and rise above it. However, McClain still credits his dad for his riding and calls him his coach. Even if he was not related to Barney Ward, this association is troubling. How many of you would employ a horse killer as your coach? I know the family dynamic is a complicated one and it is hard to totally distance yourself from your parents. However, giving Barney Ward credit on national TV is horrible and scary in my opinion.

To the OP it is because of people like you, young horse people who perhaps have not been so jaded yet, that we need to keep the bad deeds fresh in our minds. You had not heard any of the bad deeds and there are plenty of you out there who don't know or can't remember the sanctions, court cases etc. I don't see anything wrong with informing those who don't know or can't remember. I do have a big problem with the past being totally forgotten.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:07 PM
Believe what you want you are entitled to that:) OJ was found innocent so anything is possible:lol::lol::lol:

No, OJ was deemed "not guilty." Courts do not find people "innocent." The state, in that case, failed to prove by clear and convincing evidence that OJ was guilty.

By the way, there was NO finding as to McLain one way or the other. He SETTLED the matter with the USEF; the suspensions were part of the settlement arrangement, and the suspension period ran while he was still pursuing an appeal with the CAS. It appears that had he not settled, he might have been suspended for a much longer period while he tried to fight the allegations. And BTW, a one-month suspension for cocaine is a slap on the wrist; had the USEF really thought they had a strong case, I doubt they would have let him slide by with a one-month suspension.

And as someone else pointed out, the rule is a strict liability type of rule. If a horse tests positive, trainer and owner are responsible, even if they personally had nothing to do with it.

nycjumper
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:08 PM
*banging head*

McLain. McLain. McLain.

If ya'll insist on trashing him and dragging his name through the mud, at least spell it correctly.

Unless of course you are discussing someone else entirely. ;)

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:10 PM
No, OJ was deemed "not guilty." Courts do not find people "innocent." The state, in that case, failed to prove by clear and convincing evidence that OJ was guilty.

By the way, there was NO finding as to McLain one way or the other. He SETTLED the matter with the USEF; the suspensions were part of the settlement arrangement, and the suspension period ran while he was still pursuing an appeal with the CAS. It appears that had he not settled, he might have been suspended for a much longer period while he tried to fight the allegations. And BTW, a one-month suspension for cocaine is a slap on the wrist; had the USEF really thought they had a strong case, I doubt they would have let him slide by with a one-month suspension.

And as someone else pointed out, the rule is a strict liability type of rule. If a horse tests positive, trainer and owner are responsible, even if they personally had nothing to do with it.

Like I said believe whatever you want in the end it really doesn't matter nor are any minds going to be changed. :no:

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:13 PM
Like I said believe whatever you want in the end it really doesn't matter nor are any minds going to be changed. :no:

Fine, but at least make up your minds based on the actual facts, not on some manipulated rendition of the facts.

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:17 PM
Believe what you want you are entitled to that:) Like someone said we aren't going to change anyone's mind...OJ was found innocent so anything is possible:lol::lol::lol:

The point is that I don't have a basis for believing anything about whether MW did or did not personally do the acts complained of.

And (bigger point) neither do you.

Under the rule he is responsible for the result because he is the trainer in one case and the rider in the other. Not because he was proven to be the culprit. His settlement acknowledges only that fact -- he is responsible because he is the trainer not because he actually did the deed.

Now, you can say that you are a firm believer in where there's smoke there's fire and that in your book everyone who is held responsible because of the status of trainer or rider is, in fact, personally guilty, too.

Or, you can say that you believe that a person's parent's bad acts prove that the offspring is personally guilty of everything said against them.

Or, maybe you can say that you know other facts that argue for the person's bad character.

But, factually (and legally for what it's worth) you aren't justified in saying that the MERE fact that a person is responsible under a rule of strict lability based on the status of being the trainer or the rider proves that the person, in fact, did the deed.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:20 PM
To the OP it is because of people like you, young horse people who perhaps have not been so jaded yet, that we need to keep the bad deeds fresh in our minds. You had not heard any of the bad deeds and there are plenty of you out there who don't know or can't remember the sanctions, court cases etc. .

Because otherwise young people might not know that breaking USEF rules or the law is wrong? Give me a break.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:21 PM
The point is that I don't have a basis for believing anything about whether MW did or did not personally do the acts complained of.

And (bigger point) neither do you.

Under the rule he is responsible for the result because he is the trainer in one case and the rider in the other. Not because he was proven to be the culprit. His settlement acknowledges only that fact -- he is responsible because he is the trainer not because he actually did the deed.

Now, you can say that you are a firm believer in where there's smoke there's fire and that in your book everyone who is held responsible because of the status of trainer or rider is, in fact, personally guilty, too.

Or, you can say that you believe that a person's parent's bad acts prove that the offspring is personally guilty of everything said against them.

Or, maybe you can say that you know other facts that argue for the person's bad character.

But, factually (and legally for what it's worth) you aren't justified in saying that the MERE fact that a person is responsible under a rule of strict lability based on the status of being the trainer or the rider proves that the person, in fact, did the deed.

True.

justalittlex
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:22 PM
Until yesterday I didn't know that cocaine was a drug that horses were even tested for. What effect would it have on a horse?

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:24 PM
Fine, but at least make up your minds based on the actual facts, not on some manipulated rendition of the facts.

I have made my mind up...:yes:

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:26 PM
The point is that I don't have a basis for believing anything about whether MW did or did not personally do the acts complained of.

And (bigger point) neither do you.

Under the rule he is responsible for the result because he is the trainer in one case and the rider in the other. Not because he was proven to be the culprit. His settlement acknowledges only that fact -- he is responsible because he is the trainer not because he actually did the deed.

Now, you can say that you are a firm believer in where there's smoke there's fire and that in your book everyone who is held responsible because of the status of trainer or rider is, in fact, personally guilty, too.

Or, you can say that you believe that a person's parent's bad acts prove that the offspring is personally guilty of everything said against them.

Or, maybe you can say that you know other facts that argue for the person's bad character.

But, factually (and legally for what it's worth) you aren't justified in saying that the MERE fact that a person is responsible under a rule of strict lability based on the status of being the trainer or the rider proves that the person, in fact, did the deed.


I can believe whatever I want for whatever reason and I may or may not know things I wouldn't put on this board...I think he's a great rider I don't believe he's a good horseman.....PERIOD end of story.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:31 PM
Until yesterday I didn't know that cocaine was a drug that horses were even tested for. What effect would it have on a horse?

My guess would be that it would act as a stimulant; I really can't imagine anyone thinking giving it to a jumper would likely enhance performance, but weirder things have occurred. There are more effective, less traceable, cheaper, and more easily procured meds that could be used if one wants to cheat (not to mention ones that don't run the risk of a felony conviction if caught with them). I think it is much more likely that whoever was tasked with feeding the horse was a user or dealer ans residue transferred from his/her hands, or that there was lab contamination, but who knows.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:33 PM
I have made my mind up...:yes:

Well, good, then you can go about your business feeling like a superior human being, I guess. Kudos to you.

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:33 PM
It's useful for others to realize that you may believe what you want to believe for no reason, too.

And would show more character for you to simply acknowledge that rather than use the pretense that the settlement proves your point, when it expressly does not.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:34 PM
My guess would be that it would act as a stimulant; I really can't imagine anyone thinking giving it to a jumper would likely enhance performance, but weirder things have occurred. There are more effective, less traceable, cheaper, and more easily procured meds that could be used if one wants to cheat (not to mention ones that don't run the risk of a felony conviction if caught with them). I think it is much more likely that whoever was tasked with feeding the horse was a user or dealer ans residue transferred from his/her hands, or that there was lab contamination, but who knows.

LOL now you're accusing the groom of being a user or a dealer...Yankee lawyer you are a piece of work:lol::lol::lol: Or maybe he never thought they would check for coke...Throw the groom under the bus:lol::lol::lol:

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:35 PM
I can believe whatever I want for whatever reason and I may or may not know things I wouldn't put on this board.

Remember that bit about insinuations? If you have documented violations that you know of, dish. Otherwise, don't pretend that you might have secret condemning info.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:39 PM
Well, good, then you can go about your business feeling like a superior human being, I guess. Kudos to you.

Hey at least I'm not accuisng MW of being a drug dealer or user like you are accusing the groom of being.. I've been around 30+ years and I'm friends with many horse trainers and I've also groomed for many years as a teenager so I know what goes on and I'm sure I'm jaded because all that I've seen and heard.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:40 PM
LOL now you're accusing the groom of being a user or a dealer...Yankee lawyer you are a piece of work:lol::lol::lol: Or maybe he never thought they would check for coke...Throw the groom under the bus:lol::lol::lol:

I never said the groom did anything. I said the person tasked with feeding the horse, did I not? Perhaps the owner feeds the horse, or the trainer, or the groom, or some temp person hired to help out at the show one day. Further, I never said that is definitively what did occur. I said it is ONE possibility -- and one that HAS been proven to be true in other similar cases. I also suggested that lab contamination is another possibility. And while we are on the topic, it is also possible that some vile person set ML up by giving the horse a banned substance -- that too, would not be unheard of in the show world.

BTW, one reason the USEF rules are drafted the way they are is that they don't want to have to get into lengthy investigations into who gave the horse what. It is easier for them to simply say the trainer is per se responsible, as is the owner, if a horse tests positive. That is why, on my farm, no one is permitted to administer meds other than myself, and I feed at shows. I don't want to find out the hard way that someone accidentally applied some boo boo cream containing steroids or whatnot in the days leading up to a show.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:40 PM
Remember that bit about insinuations? If you have documented violations that you know of, dish. Otherwise, don't pretend that you might have secret condemning info.

Use your own advice, YankeeLawyer writes: I think it is much more likely that whoever was tasked with feeding the horse was a user or dealer ans residue transferred from his/her hands, or that there was lab contamination, but who knows. GIVE me a break the grooms feed the horses...LOL

I know the rules and I know someone can screw with someone elses horses when it comes to drugs.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:47 PM
GIVE me a break the grooms feed the horses...LOL



I feed at the shows; I am not a groom. I also rode with a top BNT for many years and she did most of the feeding at shows and administered all meds herself. I learned from her (good) example.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:51 PM
Use your own advice, YankeeLawyer writes: I think it is much more likely that whoever was tasked with feeding the horse was a user or dealer ans residue transferred from his/her hands, or that there was lab contamination, but who knows. GIVE me a break the grooms feed the horses...LOL

I know the rules and I know someone can screw with someone elses horses when it comes to drugs.

If you cannot distinguish between offering various possible scenarios and making an accusation against a specific person, and between mere allegations and substantiated fact, there really is no point in trying to argue with you.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:54 PM
If you cannot distinguish between offering various possible scenarios and making an accusation against a specific person, and between mere allegations and substantiated fact, there really is no point in trying to argue with you.

Give me a break:lol::lol::lol:

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:56 PM
If you cannot distinguish between offering various possible scenarios and making an accusation against a specific person, and between mere allegations and substantiated fact, there really is no point in trying to argue with you.

Give me a break you didn't offer various possibilites you said It is much more likely that the person in charge of feeding the horse is a drug dealer or user...Wonder if we can dig up who the groom was and get them on this board...

Yankee writes: I think it is much more likely that whoever was tasked with feeding the horse was a user or dealer ans residue transferred from his/her hands, or that there was lab contamination, but who knows.

I think it's much more likely that it had nothing to do with the grooms...

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:03 PM
Give me a break you didn't offer various possibilites you said It is much more likely that the person in charge of feeding the horse is a drug dealer or user...Wonder if we can dig up who the groom was and get them on this board...

Yankee writes: I think it is much more likely that whoever was tasked with feeding the horse was a user or dealer ans residue transferred from his/her hands, or that there was lab contamination, but who knows.


Can you read? OR that there was lab contamination.. but who knows. I also posited later that someone might have set ML up -- I would have offered that to begin with, but thought it so devastatingly obvious as a possibility that there was no reason to point it out.

As to the first possibility, you ASSUMED groom and attributed that assumption to me, incorrectly. In my experience, many people, including grooms, might be the one who feed. And it is a fact that that very scenario has occurred and caused positive test results on occasion (i.e., transfer to feed by someone who uses or handles drugs). In the Shahinian case, there was the theory that the residue was transferred as a result of someone handling money that had been handled by someone else who also handled drugs.

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:09 PM
The utility of this thread has been exhausted.

Ridgeback is left defending "the world is flat, I can believe whatever I want no matter what" view by having a rumpelstiltskin-like verbal tantrum.

The thinking adults in the room should retire from this fray!

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:13 PM
The utility of this thread has been exhausted.

Ridgeback is left defending "the world is flat, I can believe whatever I want no matter what" view by having a rumpelstiltskin-like verbal tantrum.


The thinking adults in the room should retire from this fray!

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Fairview Horse Center
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:20 PM
A good defense lawyer can make anyone look not guilty. ;)

springer
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:21 PM
Oh no! Please go on, this is better than the olympics!
(just kidding)

europferde
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:33 PM
You sound like a woman scorned the way you go after McLain in all the threads!

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:34 PM
Missoula!

Cool. I lived there for a year in the late 1980s. I enjoyed it very much.

Is there much horse activity there now (pleasure riding)?

Sundown
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:37 PM
Seriously? This is ridiculous...This is no discussion it's a bitch fest. I'm sorry I posted this I am glad that I now know about his alleged doings but I think that if we knew everything that everyone did that was wrong or we didn't agree with then there wouldn't be a single horseman left...But seriously I can't believe everyone managed to turn another thread into a train reck...:no:

hedmbl
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:58 PM
...But seriously I can't believe everyone managed to turn another thread into a train reck...:no:/

No kidding. Is this COTH or horse show spy? :rolleyes:

Moderator 1
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:00 PM
Again, the charges and related pleas are what they are and have been clarified thoroughly on this thread. The basis for them and people's opinions on them have been discussed at length in previous threads on this board and elsewhere and don't need to be rehashed further. This forum is here for discussion of events in the Olympics.

If you'd like to comment on how his specific history influences perception of him as a horseman and how it is related to his involvement in the Olympics, OK. If you'd like to share other, unrelated comments regarding his horsemanship and his involvement in the Olympics, OK.

Thanks,
Mod 1

AppJumpr08
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:07 PM
I've been a fan of McLain's for... oh, maybe 11 or so years... when I got the opportunity to watch him compete up here in New Hampshire with Twist du Valon and Beneton... what a lovely soft rider he was (and still is!)
I for one, am THRILLED to see him achieve such heights at the Olympics.

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:10 PM
I think the real problem is that ridgeback's BFF Haddad blew off Beijing and ruined her chances of a free ticket to Hong Kong. :cool:

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:15 PM
I think the real problem is that ridgeback's BFF Haddad blew off Beijing and ruined her chances of a free ticket to Hong Kong. :cool:

I thought Ridgeback favored boycotting the Olympics. Surely she would not be caught dead over there.

springer
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:28 PM
McLain sure equitates nicely for a jumper rider, doesn't he?
:)

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:31 PM
On my. Quite right.

Of course... Hong Kong isn't really China because, well, you know it's not REALLY. And it's SO not fair that the BFF thumbed her nose and then complained about it in public and then was SO surprised when she didn't get a bye...

It's just all too tragic.

I was lucky to go to the Atlanta Games. 3-Day. One of the best experiences of my life. Much better than watching it on TV, or discussing it on BB's. Actually... I'd been looking forward to chatting about it on the BB... but geez. This is awful.

springer... I watched him ride and admit to being insanely jealous of his lower leg. Whatever the man's faults are..... he is a most excellent rider.

Beezer
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:21 PM
These articles mean nothing.

So ... official notices of sanctions by the sport's national governing body "mean nothing"? What, in your worldview, would mean "something"?

I really didn't want to add to this train wreck and will keep my opinions on ML to myself because you know what? He doesn't give a rat's hiney what I think. But I just find it really amusing that an official notice from NGB means "nothing."

And let the record show that I would say the same thing about whoever said that about such a notice, no matter who the person named in the sanction was. :)

The bottom line is, anyone at the top of anything -- sports, politics, business, what have you -- is going to have baggage. Hell, we all have it. Some of us just have to carry it more publicly than others, and whether it's fair or not, when one puts oneself in the public arena, the public gets to weigh in on one's baggage.

kkj
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:23 PM
Because otherwise young people might not know that breaking USEF rules or the law is wrong? Give me a break.
Um I did not say that. Just like a lawyer putting words in my mouth. And breaking the law isn't always wrong- just illegal. Surely you know that.

The deterrent of breaking these FEI and other horse organization "laws" in my mind is not high enough because the punishments are not strict enough. Bad deeds are too soon forgotten and those who are charged with them can go on to be our most celebrated riders. Young riders grow up not knowing any better and esteeming these not morally sound "wrong doers" and there is little incentive for the wrong doers of today or the morally compromised of tomorrow to do any better. They will only get a little slap on the wrist or a short ban from competition that is lifted just in time for them to again do their country "proud" in International competition.

And if you do something really morally evil (like order the execution of horses) you will be banned for life but you will still be able to be credited for training a rider who rides for our country. In fact your son can announce this fact on national TV and no one will bat an eye.

I agree we cannot conclude that McLain either put studs in the boots or ordered it done or that he gave a horse cocaine or ordered it done. His dad wasn't so good and hiding the chain of evidence. Maybe he is or maybe he was framed. I have no idea on that. If these were the only charges against him and he puplicly denounced his father and the horrible evils he did to horses, I would probably root the guy on. However, I think it speaks mighty poorly of McLain's morality and integrity that he uses a horse killer as a coach and it speaks lowly of the US to allow someone, who has announced that he trains with a lifetime banned horse killer, to make the team.

But then I don't really care if the US medals in Showjumping or not. Some of you seem to think that the winner can determine the morality of the game.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:45 PM
I agree we cannot conclude that McLain either put studs in the boots or ordered it done or that he gave a horse cocaine or ordered it done. His dad wasn't so good and hiding the chain of evidence. .

So are you suggesting that the allegations against MW could not be proved only because he was good at hiding evidence? Wow. Do you guys think before you write?

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:51 PM
You sound like a woman scorned the way you go after McLain in all the threads!

Please show me where I have gone after him in all threads..Please also show where I supported his a** in the thread where some were upset he didn't have his hand over his heart...Get your facts straight and now back it up..thanks.. If people are going to quote me in a thread I will respond:lol:

egontoast
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:52 PM
I agree we cannot conclude that McLain either put studs in the boots or ordered it done or that he gave a horse cocaine or ordered it done.

Perhaps a drunken house guest was the culprit. Snuck into the barn in the dead of night to frame MW for perceived slights ( bad food, loud music, hogging the remote, etc etc).

They are always doing stuff like that.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:54 PM
I think the real problem is that ridgeback's BFF Haddad blew off Beijing and ruined her chances of a free ticket to Hong Kong. :cool:


Oh now I know who you are and why you pick on everything I say:lol::lol: Just fyi if my sister was riding in China I wouldn't have gone like I said in another thread I would have been arrested for my free tibet tee shirt....

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:55 PM
I thought Ridgeback favored boycotting the Olympics. Surely she would not be caught dead over there.

Well just so your facts are straight I know how important that is to a lawyer, I never said I was in favor of boycotting the games I discussed my disgust with China and its human rights issues and you are correct I would not go;)

See below

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Swan
No. And shame on the people who attacked the torchbearer.

The only people who suffer from a boycott are the athletes - complete innocents. I'm not fond of China and its policies; but punishing innocent people is not the way to bring about change.

Those athletes just want to compete. Leave them alone and let them reach their goals.

Politics can wait.

Posted by ridgeback
Great points from everyone.. I now think maybe the games should go on but now that the world has seen what is going on in Darfur and Tibet hopefully it will make a difference for those nations...Hopefully citizens of the world will stand up and hold their governments accountable to do something but at the some time allow the games to go on...Idealist I know

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:58 PM
Perhaps a drunken house guest was the culprit. Snuck into the barn in the dead of night to frame MW for perceived slights ( bad food, loud music, hogging the remote, etc etc).

They are always doing stuff like that.

Nah, I think it was ridgeback. She was wearing a Free Tibet T-shirt. :winkgrin:

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:59 PM
Um I did not say that. Just like a lawyer putting words in my mouth. And breaking the law isn't always wrong- just illegal. Surely you know that.

The deterrent of breaking these FEI and other horse organization "laws" in my mind is not high enough because the punishments are not strict enough. Bad deeds are too soon forgotten and those who are charged with them can go on to be our most celebrated riders. Young riders grow up not knowing any better and esteeming these not morally sound "wrong doers" and there is little incentive for the wrong doers of today or the morally compromised of tomorrow to do any better. They will only get a little slap on the wrist or a short ban from competition that is lifted just in time for them to again do their country "proud" in International competition.

And if you do something really morally evil (like order the execution of horses) you will be banned for life but you will still be able to be credited for training a rider who rides for our country. In fact your son can announce this fact on national TV and no one will bat an eye.

I agree we cannot conclude that McLain either put studs in the boots or ordered it done or that he gave a horse cocaine or ordered it done. His dad wasn't so good and hiding the chain of evidence. Maybe he is or maybe he was framed. I have no idea on that. If these were the only charges against him and he puplicly denounced his father and the horrible evils he did to horses, I would probably root the guy on. However, I think it speaks mighty poorly of McLain's morality and integrity that he uses a horse killer as a coach and it speaks lowly of the US to allow someone, who has announced that he trains with a lifetime banned horse killer, to make the team.

But then I don't really care if the US medals in Showjumping or not. Some of you seem to think that the winner can determine the morality of the game.

Hey it speaks volumes of the U.S. government that his dad can even be near a horse...

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:01 PM
Hey it speaks volumes of the U.S. government that his dad can even be near a horse...

Ridgeback - I keep lots of chocolate in the house to keep me even tempered. I need a lot of it, obviously.

Would you care for some?

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:01 PM
Nah, I think it was ridgeback. She was wearing a Free Tibet T-shirt. :winkgrin:

HEE HEE now you got me laughing yep it was me...

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:02 PM
Ridgeback - I keep lots of chocolate in the house to keep me even tempered. I need a lot of it, obviously.

Would you care for some?

Thanks don't need chocolate just the hypocrisy to stop...can you help with that?:lol:;)

JSwan
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:04 PM
Why yes, of course I can.

Scotch.

If chocolate doesn't fix things - Scotch does. If nothing else, it gives you something to do with your hands at parties.


Thanks don't need chocolate just the hypocrisy to stop...can you help with that?:lol:;)

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:06 PM
Why yes, of course I can.

Scotch.

If chocolate doesn't fix things - Scotch does. If nothing else, it gives you something to do with your hands at parties.

Hmm don't like Scotch but a martini might do the same thing..thanks for the suggestion:cool::lol:

kkj
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:12 PM
So are you suggesting that the allegations against MW could not be proved only because he was good at hiding evidence? Wow. Do you guys think before you write?

YankeeLawyer, apparently your defense approach is to take a little piece of what someone writes and then distort it. Taken from the whole context of what I wrote, maybe MW is better than his dad at hiding his bad deeds, maybe he was framed. I don't know what happened, and I would not condemn someone for life on that amount of evidence. If that was all the man had in my eyes done wrong, I wouldn't even bother to post about him. (Heck there are a lot of other riders out there who have done worse) I know MW is a phenomenally good rider. I know he still credits his dad as his coach even though his dad was sent to prison for evil deeds against horses. That is really all I know.

Since you seem so confident that he is a great person and you knew him as a child and all, I feel compelled to tell you a story. As a kid I knew a boy very well who had a less than ideal family. His mom was on drugs and his dad was a dealer. This boy was always nice, polite, honest and he stated repeatedly that he would not grow up to be a loser like his dad. Fast forward many years, I ran into him at the 10 minute oil change (he was working there) He had prison tats all over and a vacant glossed over look. He told me he had been in jail a couple of times for domestic abuse (hitting his baby's mama) and suprise suprise drugs. I was very suprised that this smart, honest, wonderful boy had turned out so bad and then I wasn't. Hey maybe MW is just like you remember him and then again, maybe he has grown into something else. All I know is he still kicks it with Barney.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:25 PM
YankeeLawyer, apparently your defense approach is to take a little piece of what someone writes and then distort it. Taken from the whole context of what I wrote, maybe MW is better than his dad at hiding his bad deeds, maybe he was framed. I don't know what happened, and I would not condemn someone for life on that amount of evidence. If that was all the man had in my eyes done wrong, I wouldn't even bother to post about him. (Heck there are a lot of other riders out there who have done worse) I know MW is a phenomenally good rider. I know he still credits his dad as his coach even though his dad was sent to prison for evil deeds against horses. That is really all I know.

Since you seem so confident that he is a great person and you knew him as a child and all, I feel compelled to tell you a story. As a kid I knew a boy very well who had a less than ideal family. His mom was on drugs and his dad was a dealer. This boy was always nice, polite, honest and he stated repeatedly that he would not grow up to be a loser like his dad. Fast forward many years, I ran into him at the 10 minute oil change (he was working there) He had prison tats all over and a vacant glossed over look. He told me he had been in jail a couple of times for domestic abuse (hitting his baby's mama) and suprise suprise drugs. I was very suprised that this smart, honest, wonderful boy had turned out so bad and then I wasn't. Hey maybe MW is just like you remember him and then again, maybe he has grown into something else. All I know is he still kicks it with Barney.

I said I have known him SINCE he was little, not that I only knew him when he was little. I personally cannot fault someone for being loyal to and forgiving of their family members.

And Ridgeback, please explain to me how defending MW evidences hypocrisy. I think hypocrisy is more likely to be found in some of the holier-than-thou posts.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:26 PM
YankeeLawyer, apparently your defense approach is to take a little piece of what someone writes and then distort it. .

I didn't distort what you wrote. You wrote it. If you intended to say something else, then do so.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:39 PM
I said I have known him SINCE he was little, not that I only knew him when he was little. I personally cannot fault someone for being loyal to and forgiving of their family members.

And Ridgeback, please explain to me how defending MW evidences hypocrisy. I think hypocrisy is more likely to be found in some of the holier-than-thou posts.

Sorry just can't get over you saying, "I think it is much more likely that whoever was tasked with feeding the horse was a user or dealer ans residue transferred from his/her hands, or that there was lab contamination, but who knows."

I'm shocked we get attacked for having an opinion on rather the person is a good horseman(nothing about riding ability) who was fined and set down but it's ok for you to imply it is much more likely the groom was a drug dealer or user and it's his/her fault...

Lets agree to disagree

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:57 PM
Sorry just can't get over you saying, "I think it is much more likely that whoever was tasked with feeding the horse was a user or dealer ans residue transferred from his/her hands, or that there was lab contamination, but who knows."

I'm shocked we get attacked for having an opinion on rather the person is a good horseman(nothing about riding ability) who was fined and set down but it's ok for you to imply it is much more likely the groom was a drug dealer or user and it's his/her fault...

Lets agree to disagree

Wow, I already told you, I never said his groom did squat. YOU said that.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:00 PM
Wow, I already told you, I never said his groom did squat. YOU said that.

Now now YankeeLawyer you either no nothing about the horse show world or you're trying to be clever.. Grooms feed the horses I can assure you in ALL the years I groomed I never once saw the rider, owner or some joe come in and feed the horses. Now in my experience the rider does medicate.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:08 PM
Now now YankeeLawyer you either no nothing about the horse show world or you're trying to be clever.. Grooms feed the horses I can assure you in ALL the years I groomed I never once saw the rider, owner or some joe come in and feed the horses. Now in my experience the rider does medicate.

Head bangs desk. On my farm, the policy is I always medicate, and medicate and feed at shows. At my trainer's BNT farm, she (BNT) does that. Sorry if your experience is more limited. In any event, I clarified MY statements after you indicated your assumption was based on your different experience. My POINT was that there were other reasonable possibilities that were at least equally likely as the one favored by you. Further, the scenarios I described were not pulled out of thin air, but ones known to be the cause in other similar circumstances.

Frankly, I don't believe for one minute MW would intentionally administer cocaine to a horse as performance-enhancing drug (nevermind that it is dubious whether cocaine would enhance the performance of a hot jumper). As I said, at the time, he was under a microscope for his conduct. If you have been around shows so much, you should know that any time you win it is virtually guaranteed that you are going to be tested. And there are, as a I said, cheaper, better, less detectible, and easier to procure drugs available if someone wants to chaet -- ones that do not risk a felony conviction if you are caught with them.

Anyway, I am done with you guys. Feel free to continue your venom spewing. My point was only to correct the record, which was being distorted, and to point out that there are various other possible and highly plausible explanations for the test results.

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:13 PM
ahh yes you must be a dressage person...well that's not how it's done in the hunter/jumper world..:lol::lol: I'll be out at the KY summer shows and will ask around how many trainers feed their own horses....ha ha ha ha ha bang your head....My experience is not limited :lol: I will let his groom know he/she is being accused of dealing drugs or using coke..

JA
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:15 PM
This thread needs severe editing or deleting by the moderators!

Mclain and the entire team should be congratulated!

ridgeback
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:19 PM
Head bangs desk. On my farm, the policy is I always medicate, and medicate and feed at shows. At my trainer's BNT farm, she (BNT) does that. Sorry if your experience is more limited. In any event, I clarified MY statements after you indicated your assumption was based on your different experience. My POINT was that there were other reasonable possibilities that were at least equally likely as the one favored by you. Further, the scenarios I described were not pulled out of thin air, but ones known to be the cause in other similar circumstances.

Frankly, I don't believe for one minute MW would intentionally administer cocaine to a horse as performance-enhancing drug (nevermind that it is dubious whether cocaine would enhance the performance of a hot jumper). As I said, at the time, he was under a microscope for his conduct. If you have been around shows so much, you should know that any time you win it is virtually guaranteed that you are going to be tested. And there are, as a I said, cheaper, better, less detectible, and easier to procure drugs available if someone wants to chaet -- ones that do not risk a felony conviction if you are caught with them.

Anyway, I am done with you guys. Feel free to continue your venom spewing. My point was only to correct the record, which was being distorted, and to point out that there are various other possible and highly plausible explanations for the test results.

Just FYI I didn't bring up the drug charge and I agree that anyone could do it my issues was with the boots...

Equibrit
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:21 PM
It is all here;http://books.google.com/books?id=rcj2e6AdOZ8C&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=McLain+Ward+suspension+boots&source=web&ots=-KvivlJBrD&sig=_Ys0KVFNDLNhprUFr8m7j4LqtPY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:24 PM
ahh yes you must be a dressage person...well that's not how it's done in the hunter/jumper world..:lol::lol: I'll be out at the KY summer shows and will ask around how many trainers feed their own horses....ha ha ha ha ha bang your head....My experience is not limited :lol: I will let his groom know he/she is being accused of dealing drugs or using coke..

(1) I NEVER accused his groom of doing squat; (2) to the extent YOU insist the groom was implicated, you might be aware that it is unlikely that he has the same groom or grooms now that he had for Oliver nearly 10 years ago.

And I showed on the A circuit for 15 years in the H/J, and not just in KY.

Moderator 1
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:28 PM
And around and around we go... As per our previous post, there are several pre-existing threads on this topic, which is not related to the Olympics, so we're closing the thread.

Thanks,
Mod 1