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View Full Version : Dressage jury under fire, FEI says they will investigate



Coreene
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:08 PM
From horses.nl (will translate when I have a sec):

De dressuurjurering ligt na afloop van de Olympische Spelen zwaar onder vuur. Na protest vanuit onder meer het Amerikaanse en het Nederlandse kamp heeft de FEI het besluit genomen om het jureringssysteem van de dressuur te onderzoeken, meldt Horses.nl-correspondent Fabian Brockötter. Vooral over de beoordelingswijze van de voorzitter van de jury, het Duitse jurylid Gotthilf Riexinger, zijn veel klachten.
Na de Grand Prix Spécial vond een ontmoeting plaats tussen de jury en een aantal deelnemende landen over het uitdelen van punten. Teammanager Mariëtte Sanders en KNHS-topsportdirecteur George de Jong representeerden Nederland. In eerste instantie was vooral Nederland kritisch over met name de jurering van Riexinger. Eigen nieuws horses.nl en hier geknipt en geplakt van horses.nl
Het Amerikaanse kamp wakkerde het vuur verder aan, ook zij hadden vooral problemen met het Duitse jurylid. ,"Hoe kan het dat een klein foutje van Steffen Peters zwaar wordt gestraft, terwijl Werth ondanks een grove fout in de piaffe zo hoog eindigt?", vragen de Amerikanen zich af. ,"De proef van Isabell Werth heeft een hogere moeilijkheidsgraad dan de proef van Peters, daardoor kan ze toch een hogere score halen", voert Riexinger ter verdediging aan, over de jurering van de kür op muziek.

Regal Grace
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:17 PM
i started a post on this at the same time you did..

Here is the link and text:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/265861.html

The FEI has been forced to make yet another statement during this Olympic Games.

This time, it concerns a meeting which took place in the competitors' briefing room, as FEI vice-president Chris Hodson said "at the very unusual time of 1.30am on Monday morning".


It involved the ground jury, TD, appeal committee, FEI officials and representatives of the Danish, German, Dutch and American teams.


Other teams have raised concerns as to why this was taking place, mid competition, and a second meeting was held the following day with representatives from all competing teams.


The matter is now the subject of an FEI enquiry and a statement is expected soon.

dutchmike
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:26 PM
The scoring def. reminds me of the eurovision song contests:lol:

Coreene
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:28 PM
I am sure that Riexner's response to it all will be a big Eff You, but fingers crossed that moving forward they can clean house a bit. High time that it is scored the same as skating and diving, with the high and low thrown out. There is no place for people like Riexner and Tornblad.

Coreene
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:28 PM
The scoring def. reminds me of the eurovision song contests:lol:OMG that is my laugh of the day! :lol:

canyonoak
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:29 PM
Ha!

The chickens come home to roost!

SO, Riexinger and his pal Tornblad may get nice retirement parties from their respective federations...but thanks to the internet, to instant communications, the transparency of the FEI is gonna get a REAL test!

Welcome to the 21st century, horsesport!

JenJ
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:34 PM
I wont try to translate, but my understanding of the last paragraph is that a small error by Peters was penalized harder than a big error by Werth because Werth's ride was so much more difficult / higher to begin with. A top level test can survive a bad mistake better than an easier test can survive a small mistake.
Without the error, Werth likely would have scored in the 80s (I'm guessing that part)

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:40 PM
WOW.

What really amazes me is that this appears to be a joint action of four rival teams at the top! Maybe each team is complaining about something different, but it is still really interesting that all the different teams would essentially, support eachother and speak up.

I still don't think it will change the placing, but it sure may change some things, like maybe licenses or discarding a low score.

I think if any score is discarded, it makes more sense to throw out the low score, rather than the low AND the high score. Though someone can try to 'boost' a competitor unfairly too.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:52 PM
Low and high scores should go out. Sometimes biases are unconcious. For example, if a person from one country obtains citizenship in another country and then competes for that second country... I'm just sayin'.... maybe the judge from the first country should recuse himself. ;)

Coreene
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:54 PM
It's not going to make any change with Hong Kong, but hopefully moving forward they'll clean house and get rid of this bullshit.

Coral
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:58 PM
WOW.

What really amazes me is that this appears to be a joint action of four rival teams at the top! Maybe each team is complaining about something different, but it is still really interesting that all the different teams would essentially, support eachother and speak up.

I still don't think it will change the placing, but it sure may change some things, like maybe licenses or discarding a low score.

I think if any score is discarded, it makes more sense to throw out the low score, rather than the low AND the high score. Though someone can try to 'boost' a competitor unfairly too.

I'm not sure why it would surprise you so much that they would agree. Even if the fixing "helps" them, some people regard fairness highly and would prefer to win on an even field rather than one that is slanted. I'll freely admit that I don't know much about dressage other than I love watching gorgeous horses move, but any judging with as much subjectivity as this sport has is suspect as far as I'm concerned.

Looking at the number of times where one judge scored a movement very unusually high or low compared to the others just seems wrong and I'm not surprised that the athletes would like a resolution so that they can be seen for what they are instead of constantly feeling like they are at the mercy of the judges' whims. When you try to understand the judging it's difficult to fathom how four judges ranked a ride third and one ranked it eighth. He saw something that no one else saw? Perhaps. Perhaps he also saw what he wanted to see. To be clear, I'm not saying there was deliberate "fixing" involved, only that you're more likely to see the brilliance (or lack) of a ride if you go into it thinking that it will be that way.

freestyle2music
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:09 PM
Three months ago the Dutch already complaint about the fact that Riexinger was appointed as head of the judges. Meaning he was allowed to judge all three tests. The reason for the Dutch complaint was that Gotthilff Riexinger scored all Dutch riders significantly low in three different competitions.

When i posted this here on this board everybody was screaming "sour grapes and things like that" .

But you all have seen what happened.

And now we probably get the same cover-up story as we had/have with Brentina.

The FEI will look into it. Hahahahahahaha.

When Riexinger defends himself by saying that IW had a higher degree of difficulty (which is correct) this should reflect the artistic marks, but not the techical marks. And how about the marks for "harmony between horse and rider"

My direct link to Hongkong also told me that Riexinger scored Mythilus down because of being "short in the neck". (again correct) however I have seen much more horses with the same problem who weren't scored down.

Never the less it was very wise from the Dutch that they came up with these complaints, because a winner will be taken much more serious that the nation that got robed (USA-SP) of a medal.

Theo

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:11 PM
So now I need to defend myself for using the word 'surprised'?

Come on.

I'm not even going to consider doing that.

I have sheaths to clean, sump pump cisterns to clean out, and a dead mouse in the tack room sink who looks like other mice partly ate him, and he seems FAR more appealing than defending my choice of word, 'surprised'.

Coral
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:18 PM
So now I need to defend myself for using the word 'surprised'?

Come on.

I'm not even going to consider doing that.

I have sheaths to clean, sump pump cisterns to clean out, and a dead mouse in the tack room sink who looks like other mice partly ate him, and he seems FAR more appealing than defending my choice of word, 'surprised'.

Wow, relax. I wasn't attacking you. I'm not a part of the long standing dressage war that seems to be going on so don't assume that I'm out to get you. I was just explaining why it made sense that they would agree even though they are rivals. The same could be said for rival basketball teams complaining about referees or any other sport where subjective measures are used. If you're at the top you don't want people to say "Well you only won because of..." you want them to say "Good job on winning".

Kareen
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:27 PM
Well one thing is for sure: Dressage has always been big at complaining and blaming all kinds of circumstances. What a joke.

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:30 PM
Aren't you German?:lol:

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:32 PM
WOW.

What really amazes me is that this appears to be a joint action of four rival teams at the top! Maybe each team is complaining about something different, but it is still really interesting that all the different teams would essentially, support eachother and speak up.

I still don't think it will change the placing, but it sure may change some things, like maybe licenses or discarding a low score.

I think if any score is discarded, it makes more sense to throw out the low score, rather than the low AND the high score. Though someone can try to 'boost' a competitor unfairly too.

Oh, so perhaps some very knowledgeable people on the scene had an issue with the judging also. Interesting.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:33 PM
Well one thing is for sure: Dressage has always been big at complaining and blaming all kinds of circumstances. What a joke.

Do you think the judging was fair and accurate?

freestyle2music
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:35 PM
It's not going to make any change with Hong Kong, but hopefully moving forward they'll clean house and get rid of this bullshit.

Dream dream dream.

The judges only will get more causius. Like :

German/Dutch/French judge to the Danish/USA/GB judge "hey when you score my fellow country members higher I wil score the competitors of your country higher" High Five :cool:
The marks may even be traded on the stockmarket ?!


The only solution that I see is a system where the judges are judged by an independent authority (preferably from Mars or Venus)

Theo

Elegante E
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:40 PM
Seriously, would it kill the dressage powers that be to have at least the head of the judges not be such an interested party? Kind of makes one wish we could just have judges from countries not competing. May not be of the caleber of the top judges but hopefully at least if there were scoring mistakes they would be truly mistakes.

Coreene
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:45 PM
Seriously, would it kill the dressage powers that be to have at least the head of the judges not be such an interested party? Kind of makes one wish we could just have judges from countries not competing. May not be of the caleber of the top judges but hopefully at least if there were scoring mistakes they would be truly mistakes.Why on earth would you go to one of the top two international events - World Championships being the other - with low caliber judges?

poltroon
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:46 PM
Seriously, would it kill the dressage powers that be to have at least the head of the judges not be such an interested party? Kind of makes one wish we could just have judges from countries not competing. May not be of the caleber of the top judges but hopefully at least if there were scoring mistakes they would be truly mistakes.

The gymnastics people do that, and the US commentators were complaining about it yesterday, that maybe they weren't knowledgable enough to score correctly, and were too impressed by reputations. :lol:

freestyle2music
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:46 PM
Seriously, would it kill the dressage powers that be to have at least the head of the judges not be such an interested party? Kind of makes one wish we could just have judges from countries not competing. May not be of the caleber of the top judges but hopefully at least if there were scoring mistakes they would be truly mistakes.

I know three of the best judges who should have been there :

Steven Clark (GB), Vincent Truppa (Italy), Jacques van Daele (Belgium)

Theo

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 04:00 PM
Lesser judges will be even more unsure of themselves and more vulnerable. That won't work.

It is not that the others complaining about the judging aren't sour-grapes'ing it. They are. The standings and the scores are very, very unlikely to change now, what's over is over, and to my knowledge I rarely, rarely hear the majority here say ANY competition satisfied them, either the quality of the riders OR the judging. Further, wailing because Balagur didn't do better...come on now. He just wasn't that good. Sure I love his story and all but come on.

Everyone has been saying all along Reixinger was just too harsh on the Dutch and Americans. Since he is the president of the judges I figured it was just how it was going to be. You can't name too many occasions when the president of the judges gets told what to do, to stop doing what he's doing, or that he is going too far.

At the same time, I am not so sure Ravel could have scored a LOT higher or moved up much. There were still obvious 'greenie' things in his tests. In all of them. I'm not greedy. He did his first GP test this spring (May, March, who gives a shit it's still only a few months at GP, he doesn't even have a year under his belt before going to the Olympics), I don't even think he should be having to be pushed this year.

I understand why Satchmo was scored where he was, and why his score wasn't lower. I understand Anky's score in the freestyle, it was much freer and more relaxed than the GP or GPS...but I thought it would be close to 80, not 82.

I think it even surprised her. one I think could have scored quite a bit higher, was Imke, as well as Courtney, even though her rides (all) were still conservative and too careful (I also think a careful ride is what she should be expected to be doing now) and I think her freestyle could have been simpler and more direct. I think of all of them she was the one who should have moved up the most in the standings (2-3 positions).

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 19, 2008, 04:10 PM
I think it even surprised her. one I think could have scored quite a bit higher, was Imke, as well as Courtney, even though her rides (all) were still conservative and too careful (I also think a careful ride is what she should be expected to be doing now) and I think her freestyle could have been simpler and more direct. I think of all of them she was the one who should have moved up the most in the standings (2-3 positions).

As a few of us noticed after watching the selection trials videos, Courtney's music was uninspired and did nothing to enhance the ride. If anything, it made it feel even more boring and conservative than it was. I haven't looked at the scores to compare the aesthetic to the technical, but if I had to find fault, that is where it would be.

belambi
Aug. 19, 2008, 04:16 PM
the judging from the team event hopefully will also be studied. For the german to have Imke in 18 position when the others had her 4th was bizarre.

rileyt
Aug. 19, 2008, 04:17 PM
Wasn't the complaint raised by the (winning) Dutch?? How can that be sour-grapes?

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 04:20 PM
Saying the music is boring or not inspirational, I don't go along with critiquing the music that way, I try to focus on if the music was appropriate to the horse and the choreography, and if the tempo matched the horse's gaits well. A person should be able to do a freestyle with any genre of music - rock, dance hall, classical. I don't think anyone should pick at a freestyle based on "I don't like that type of music". I think the problem with Courtney's music is a lack of clear rhythm, it's almost impressionistic - it's BEAUTIFUL music in and of itself. As far as him short in the neck, sure, but do you really think he can be ridden in any other way than that? He's massive in front.

ridgeback
Aug. 19, 2008, 04:30 PM
So now I need to defend myself for using the word 'surprised'?

Come on.

I'm not even going to consider doing that.

I have sheaths to clean, sump pump cisterns to clean out, and a dead mouse in the tack room sink who looks like other mice partly ate him, and he seems FAR more appealing than defending my choice of word, 'surprised'.

Back away from the keyboard how do you have a farm and horses and spend this much time on this board...:lol::no: not to mention all the opinions...SIGH

Madeline
Aug. 19, 2008, 06:13 PM
Seriously, would it kill the dressage powers that be to have at least the head of the judges not be such an interested party? Kind of makes one wish we could just have judges from countries not competing. May not be of the caleber of the top judges but hopefully at least if there were scoring mistakes they would be truly mistakes.

Before you go in this direction, do some research on gymnastics in these Olympics. They instituted a system where the judges in the individual event finals were not from the countries of the competitors. The judging this week has been at least as controversial as the dressage judging.

Elegante E
Aug. 19, 2008, 06:22 PM
Before you go in this direction, do some research on gymnastics in these Olympics. They instituted a system where the judges in the individual event finals were not from the countries of the competitors. The judging this week has been at least as controversial as the dressage judging.

Saw some of that but there has to be a better way than letting obviously biased individuals run things. At least, the ghymnasts have overseers which helps some. Seems to me, in the end, there was lots of good scoring as well.

partita
Aug. 19, 2008, 06:24 PM
OK so maybe the gymnastic judges should judge dressage and vice versa. Work the figure skating judges in there somehow too.:D

SGray
Aug. 19, 2008, 06:35 PM
for Olympics and World Champ. - add judges at K and F -there will now be three judges across 'top' of arena and 4 on sides - throw out top and bottom scores - will still have 5 scores

europferde
Aug. 19, 2008, 06:56 PM
Agree with slc2 - Courtney's horse is definitely short in the neck - massive front end - extremely difficult to get out there - as was his sire's Ferro. There really isn't another way for him to go. She does a masterful job with that horse. She really didn't risk much but no major bobbles. Looking at her scores - esp. for the GP and GPS - judging was all over the map with that one too. Its deplorable. They certainly could have hired a better bunch!

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 07:49 PM
I felt Courtney's scores were the most difficult to understand, and were also probably the most difficult to give.

Fixerupper
Aug. 19, 2008, 08:32 PM
It's not supposed to be a freaking beauty contest. If the horse's neck is short because the rider is holding it in...counts against you. If, however, physically the horse's neck is short...get over it... (They have managed to find a way to judge the Andalusians & Lusitanos whose heads are practically attached to their shoulders). I also felt that almost all the GP rides were frenetic not energetic.
I'm stunned that judges at that level are still picking flash over substance. (or maybe I'm just stunned...I happen to like the sport, but not what they were endorsing at these Olympics.)

Edited to add - I do think the top rides in the kur were deserving - I'm mostly talking about the also-rans

Sebastian
Aug. 19, 2008, 08:39 PM
It's not supposed to be a freaking beauty contest. If the horse's neck is short because the rider is holding it in...counts against you. If, however, physically the horse's neck is short...get over it... (They have managed to find a way to judge the Andalusians & Lusitanos whose heads are practically attached to their shoulders). I also felt that almost all the GP rides were frenetic not energetic.
I'm stunned that judges at that level are still picking flash over substance. (or maybe I'm just stunned...I happen to like the sport, but not what they were endorsing at these Olympics.)

Agree completely.

Dressage was never meant to be a conformation class. I believe it's supposed to be about getting a horse -- ANY horse -- to use it's self in the best way possible for the task at hand...

Seb :)

Sannois
Aug. 19, 2008, 08:47 PM
So who is complaining about the judging? Could not read the language.
Splain please.
I just watched courtneys, a half of Steffens, Isabels and Ankys.
What is up with Satchmo and the Piaffe? Again with the kicking and backing. IS he just so behind her leg there? At one point he stalled out.
It had lovely parts but Nothing like the special even with the error.
Salinero.. well his Piaffe is far more solid, But seriosly his trot and canter half passes were witout expression, at one he barely moved. And Heres my biggest question And I really want to know WHY so much angle of the curb on that horse it seems like he is ridden totally off the curb rein. IT was alomost always straight. I thought that was something one did not do at that level. You do see alot of hand riding from Anky, Why?
I think Steffens horse was really nice, He had some glitches, but I thought it was better than scored.
The anouncer said Anky got some 10s. what were they for?
Not looking for an argument just would like to know.

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 09:05 PM
If I had a dollar for every time you ask the same questions, Sannois, I'd be rich. :lol: Suffice to say, the judges had a different idea about several movements than you did. And I don't think all the judges are entirely inept, corrupt, etc.

The curb chain is at that angle because she leaves the curb chain so loose. Look at the horse's bridle some time. The curb chain couldn't be put on there any looser.

Better yet, ride in a double bridle. Once the tension is taken up on the curb chain, the shank of the bit can't go any further back. It is not physically possible.

How far back the curb shank can move is determined by how long the curb chain is, not by how hard the rider pulls.

The WORST abuse of the horse's mouth occurs when the curb chain is really tight. Then the curb bit can be perfectly parallel to the mouth, and be ripping the horse's head off.

freestyle2music
Aug. 19, 2008, 09:09 PM
So who is complaining about the judging? Could not read the language.
Splain please.
I just watched courtneys, a half of Steffens, Isabels and Ankys.
What is up with Satchmo and the Piaffe? Again with the kicking and backing. IS he just so behind her leg there? At one point he stalled out.
It had lovely parts but Nothing like the special even with the error.
Salinero.. well his Piaffe is far more solid, But seriosly his trot and canter half passes were witout expression, at one he barely moved. And Heres my biggest question And I really want to know WHY so much angle of the curb on that horse it seems like he is ridden totally off the curb rein. IT was alomost always straight. I thought that was something one did not do at that level. You do see alot of hand riding from Anky, Why?
I think Steffens horse was really nice, He had some glitches, but I thought it was better than scored.
The anouncer said Anky got some 10s. what were they for?
Not looking for an argument just would like to know.

Anky received only one 10 and thas was for the transition from PA-PI-PA

AHorseSomeDay
Aug. 19, 2008, 09:11 PM
I watched Isabel Werth ride and I was shocked to see she got a 78%?? Her horse had a big spook. I am a Hunter/Jumper rider and I don't know much about Dressage but shouldn't she have been penalized heavily for that spook??? It must be politics I guess because I don't understand it. Can someone explain? Thanks.

Sebastian
Aug. 19, 2008, 09:13 PM
And Heres my biggest question And I really want to know WHY so much angle of the curb on that horse it seems like he is ridden totally off the curb rein. IT was alomost always straight. I thought that was something one did not do at that level. You do see alot of hand riding from Anky, Why?


I've noticed that everytime I've seen them compete. I ask the same question... Then, pine for the days when the curb rein was rarely used.

Seb :)

FMulder
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:47 AM
The scoring def. reminds me of the eurovision song contests

Dutchmike, I think you'll find that the eurovision song contest has more relevance (if you're Dutch you'll get the irony).

fiona
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:41 AM
[QUOTE]De dressuurjurering ligt na afloop van de Olympische Spelen zwaar onder vuur.
The dressage judges are lying in a big floppy heap, black and blue from the olympic games
Na protest vanuit onder meer het Amerikaanse en het Nederlandse kamp heeft de FEI het besluit genomen om het jureringssysteem van de dressuur te onderzoeken, meldt Horses.nl-correspondent Fabian Brockötter. Vooral over de beoordelingswijze van de voorzitter van de jury, het Duitse jurylid Gotthilf Riexinger, zijn veel klachten.
a protest van full of american and dutch campers hope the FEI slay the gnomes from the jury says ...(name withheld for legal reasons).... for all the oversitter in the jury the ...(name also withheld for legal reasons but he's german).....sins very a lot.
Na de Grand Prix Spécial vond een ontmoeting plaats tussen de jury en een aantal deelnemende landen over het uitdelen van punten. Teammanager Mariëtte Sanders en KNHS-topsportdirecteur George de Jong representeerden Nederland. In eerste instantie was vooral Nederland kritisch over met name de jurering van Riexinger.In the gP special all the people from everywhere had the wrong points. people with important job titles agreed. A whole country didn't want one judge. Eigen nieuws horses.nl en hier geknipt en geplakt van horses.nl
Het Amerikaanse kamp wakkerde het vuur verder aan, ook zij hadden vooral problemen met het Duitse jurylid.The american campers agreed this german was a problem. ,"Hoe kan het dat een klein foutje van Steffen Peters zwaar wordt gestraft, terwijl Werth ondanks een grove fout in de piaffe zo hoog eindigt?", vragen de Amerikanen zich af. Steffen Peters had a small problem with a hoe, Isabelle had a problem with a hog - surely one is much more problematic than the other the american campers asked. ,"De proef van Isabell Werth heeft een hogere moeilijkheidsgraad dan de proef van Peters, daardoor kan ze toch een hogere score halen", voert Riexinger ter verdediging aan, over de jurering van de kür op muziek. professor isabelle werths hog was higher than that of proffessor peters van halen said the german in the jury whilst looking for a cure.
__________________/QUOTE]

There that makes much more sense now.

Bats79
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:46 AM
frenetic not energetic.

Good wording.

Stubborn Mare
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:04 AM
Could someone help me understand... I thought this meeting was held in the early hours of Monday morning, before the kur - so the complaint would be about the GPS scoring? Is this correct? If so, the German judge's reasoning is that Satchmo had a higher caliber GPS test except for the piaffe and Ravel was not as good - therefore an bigger error for Satchmo counts less than a small error for Ravel, although it was the same test?? Maybe I've got confused and the meeting on Monday isn't the same thing as this complaint?

ise@ssl
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:39 AM
I thought the judges were supposed to be scoring the movements as they SEE them - Isabell's problem was in the Special. As far as the Keurs with mistakes - AGAIN - they should mark what they see - not relative to what the other riders tests were like. It stinks when it becomes obvious from the placings - that ONE judge was clearly focused on how the riders would be placed relative to each other and NOT scoring the rides in front of him.

KWPN MOM
Aug. 20, 2008, 08:13 AM
[QUOTE]De dressuurjurering ligt na afloop van de Olympische Spelen zwaar onder vuur.
The dressage judges are lying in a big floppy heap, black and blue from the olympic games
Na protest vanuit onder meer het Amerikaanse en het Nederlandse kamp heeft de FEI het besluit genomen om het jureringssysteem van de dressuur te onderzoeken, meldt Horses.nl-correspondent Fabian Brockötter. Vooral over de beoordelingswijze van de voorzitter van de jury, het Duitse jurylid Gotthilf Riexinger, zijn veel klachten.
a protest van full of american and dutch campers hope the FEI slay the gnomes from the jury says ...(name withheld for legal reasons).... for all the oversitter in the jury the ...(name also withheld for legal reasons but he's german).....sins very a lot.
Na de Grand Prix Spécial vond een ontmoeting plaats tussen de jury en een aantal deelnemende landen over het uitdelen van punten. Teammanager Mariëtte Sanders en KNHS-topsportdirecteur George de Jong representeerden Nederland. In eerste instantie was vooral Nederland kritisch over met name de jurering van Riexinger.In the gP special all the people from everywhere had the wrong points. people with important job titles agreed. A whole country didn't want one judge. Eigen nieuws horses.nl en hier geknipt en geplakt van horses.nl
Het Amerikaanse kamp wakkerde het vuur verder aan, ook zij hadden vooral problemen met het Duitse jurylid.The american campers agreed this german was a problem. ,"Hoe kan het dat een klein foutje van Steffen Peters zwaar wordt gestraft, terwijl Werth ondanks een grove fout in de piaffe zo hoog eindigt?", vragen de Amerikanen zich af. Steffen Peters had a small problem with a hoe, Isabelle had a problem with a hog - surely one is much more problematic than the other the american campers asked. ,"De proef van Isabell Werth heeft een hogere moeilijkheidsgraad dan de proef van Peters, daardoor kan ze toch een hogere score halen", voert Riexinger ter verdediging aan, over de jurering van de kür op muziek. professor isabelle werths hog was higher than that of proffessor peters van halen said the german in the jury whilst looking for a cure.
__________________/QUOTE]

There that makes much more sense now.
What's a "hoe" and a "hog"?

bevs_stuff
Aug. 20, 2008, 08:14 AM
Does anyone have a link to the actual test scores, not just the total?
Its such a shame that a beautiful sport suffers from this type of pre-planned judging. I live in Canada and the Olympic programing that I watched had running commentary by an Olympic qualified dressage judge, she also disagreed with some of the marks, (as she is entitled because its HER opinion she was giving). However, few comments were made when the last 5 were in the ring, seemed obvious what the final outcome would be.
Some of her other comments really concerned me however, such as that some of the riders would not do well as the judges have not often seen them ride in competition. WTF, arn't they supposed to be judging what is in front of them NOW, not what the horse did last year? If the judges allow that type of bias, why don't each of the competitors ride the test at home, over and over and over, until each movement is as good as it can be and then send an edited tape to the jury panel to judge? That would make as much sense! I think its absurd that you give someone higher marks who makes a major mistake because their test is more difficult, than someone with an easier test with a minor mistake. Are you not judging each element! No wonder dressage is laughed at by the general public, reminds me of ice-skating a few years ago

egontoast
Aug. 20, 2008, 08:34 AM
What's a "hoe" and a "hog"?


Steffen had difficulties with his farm implement and Isabel had an issue with a bacon producing quadruped.

Stubborn Mare
Aug. 20, 2008, 08:42 AM
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C77D/EQX001100.shtml#EQX001101

For individual marks in each test click on the + sign beside each name.

bevs_stuff, what you are commenting on is the old controversy about the need for serious competitors to campaign in Euroland. The theory is, if judges have seen the horse a number of times before they will be mroe likely to give it the benefit of the doubt if they are wavering between a 7 and 8 (for example) in their heads.... if they have seen several past performances they will have an idea of the horse's true training/ability and this can work in competitors' favour. It's not something I like, but it's also not exactly corrupt - sometimes it is difficult to decide the mark when there are so many factors to consider. Minor signs of faults might be taken less seriously if it is clear from past performances that the horse has a history of correctness and ability.

Kaeleer
Aug. 20, 2008, 08:56 AM
Fiona, I thought it was physically impossible to choke on a slice of mango, but your post just about made me do it. Hilarious, thank you.

C'mon, peeps, it's dressage. Surely nobody's surprised that it's subjective?

See, this is why showjumping is so cool. The pole is up....or the pole is down. I've never heard a judge say "it could be more up", or put a comment at the end like "the poles show promise, I'm sure more will remain up at your next show"

Janet
Aug. 20, 2008, 08:56 AM
I watched Isabel Werth ride and I was shocked to see she got a 78%?? Her horse had a big spook. I am a Hunter/Jumper rider and I don't know much about Dressage but shouldn't she have been penalized heavily for that spook??? It must be politics I guess because I don't understand it. Can someone explain? Thanks.
THAT is more a question of the scoring. I suggest you download a couple of score sheets and play around with the numbers.

You can overcome even a "0" by scoring 1 point more than the other guy in other places.

A rider with 19 scores of 8 and one score of 0 will get a 76%.
A rider with 20 scores of 7 will get a 70%.

Now, you could argue that the 8s are political. But the fact that a single major error can be overcome by being a little bit better everywhere else is just the naure of the way dressage is scored.

dutchmike
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:00 AM
The swimming is under fire aswell.
http://100thofasecond.com/

imajicadutch
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:05 AM
Fiona
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

LD1129
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:09 AM
Steffen had difficulties with his farm implement and Isabel had an issue with a bacon producing quadruped.

I just snorted coffee on my keyboard :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Bats79
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:19 AM
THAT is more a question of the scoring. I suggest you download a couple of score sheets and play around with the numbers.

You can overcome even a "0" by scoring 1 point more than the other guy in other places.

A rider with 19 scores of 8 and one score of 0 will get a 76%.
A rider with 20 scores of 7 will get a 70%.

Now, you could argue that the 8s are political. But the fact that a single major error can be overcome by being a little bit better everywhere else is just the naure of the way dressage is scored.

The problem with this is the belief that a horse can go from a 0 score for one movement on to an 8 for the next. I find this inconceivable. Sure, if the 0 is because the rider failed to attempt the movement, but not if the horse failed to execute it. Intense resistance is usually carried on into the next movements and it is the failure to see tension except when wilfully exhibited that I find hard to comprehend.

bird4416
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:20 AM
Steffen had difficulties with his farm implement and Isabel had an issue with a bacon producing quadruped.

IIRC, Steffen has had continued problems with his "farm implement" as shown in several past photos. :D

slc2
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:32 AM
(a horse can't get a low score on one movement without deserving a low score on the next one)

Bats79, if you had watched the test with an eye not blinded by preconceived notions, you would have seen that that is EXACTLY what happened. The horse went on performing after that moment as if nothing had happened. Isabel rode the rest of the test very conservatively, with out asking for the maximum performance, to avoid any further problem.

I actually think that what happened was that Satchmo stepped on himself. It happened in the GP, the GP special, and in the freestyle. He moves very close behind, and a correctly moving horse piaffes with his hind legs close together - closer together, often, than in other movements.

In the first class, I saw him step on himself in the GP and kick out a tiny bit, very unemotionally, and just go on, but I think it bothered him and he remembered it - Isabel herself said he's very touchy, and that hurts alot even if it doesn't draw blood. It really stings.

I think it just got worse every subsequent ride. He is a very long legged horse and he can easily clip himself in piaffe, and it would hurt like hell. He didn't really look resistant to his rider or fresh, not being nasty or mean or anything like that.

tartanfarm
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:48 AM
I found Kerri's Blog very interesting yesterday and today. It answers some questions that I had about things I saw on the live feed.
I find the "BELL" thing very interesting.

http://kerrimcgregor.wordpress.com/

Maude
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:56 AM
After reading the GP, Special and Freestyle threads blow by blow (I can barely open my email with my pathetic dial up service out here in the country, let along get live feed)-and I have no cable or dish...I actually feel better about my own personal riding accomplishments and goals. The true purpose of "dressage" has been lost along the way somewhere. Klimke said that the purpose of dressage is to make the horse more beautiful. Dressage evolved from the quest for a better trained, more athletic horse. Read the collective marks. Seems that the judging is overlooking harmony, relaxation, etc. for what they consider "brilliant". To me there is no brilliance without the subtlty of aids, harmony between horse and rider, etc. Tension is not part of the desired picture or training scale. In the future, when I compete, I will strive for the perfection and beauty of the partnership, the invisible aids, the "horse seeming to perform of his own will, etc. Won't really matter how those judges that reward brilliance over correctness score me. All this crap puts things in a different light (for me) and I will so enjoy the journey that much more. I'm not great at putting things into words, but hope that I have made my point.

freestyle2music
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:07 AM
Since I have made many video's and DVD's for the judge exams I know that there are very many grey-areas. In casu areas where the FEI guidelines don't give a clear answer for the judges. And in this case it all comes down to personal interpretation of the judges.

For example the Pa-Pi-Pa movements : You have a mark for the passage, for the piaffe and for the transitions. When a horse don't perform the piaffe the judging should be a ZERO. However when a Piaffe is not shown also the transitions are not shown. Some judges will give both movements a ZERO and others will only give the Piaffe a ZERO.
Next to this, the marks for harmony between horse and rider (coef 4) should be inflicted.

In a freestyle to music it's even more difficult, because riders can decide to repeat the movements which went wrong. The jury must add the scores of these movements and divide it by the # of times performed. Let's take for example the PA-PI-PA tour. Initial score 8.0.8 transitions 0. The second time the rider performed the same PA-PI-PA tour with scores 8.9.8 transitions 9. So the finals results on the scoresheets are PA = 8 , Piaffe = 5 or 4 and transitions 5 or 4 (depending on the mood of the judges :lol::lol:).

Having said all this: To me it's very obvious that the judging in HongKong was a disaster, but I also know/feel that lack of firm guidelines from the FEI are the reason for this.

Theo

Stubborn Mare
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:52 AM
The problem with this is the belief that a horse can go from a 0 score for one movement on to an 8 for the next. I find this inconceivable. Sure, if the 0 is because the rider failed to attempt the movement, but not if the horse failed to execute it. Intense resistance is usually carried on into the next movements and it is the failure to see tension except when wilfully exhibited that I find hard to comprehend.

Watch the ride.

AM
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:17 AM
I understand the call to throw out the high and low scores but I can't figure out where to place the judges to make that a viable option. In skating and gymnastics the judges all sit fairly close together along one side. They give only one score at the end which it appears they punch into a computer themselves. So there are what five or seven people sitting in a row? Multiply that by three to allow for the judges, written scribe, computer scribe, and add the timer and we have to place 16 to 22 people around the ring in such a way that they are all seeing the same performance and are far enough apart to not have their marks overheard or influenced by another judge.

DuffyAgain
Aug. 20, 2008, 11:32 AM
Loved Kerri's blog! Thanks for posting! :)

petitefilly
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:49 PM
As a few of us noticed after watching the selection trials videos, Courtney's music was uninspired and did nothing to enhance the ride. If anything, it made it feel even more boring and conservative than it was. I haven't looked at the scores to compare the aesthetic to the technical, but if I had to find fault, that is where it would be.


Not that it matters, but a funeral would be better for Courtney's music. As a non dressage rider noted beside me. "This music sucks." So much for buying a choreographed personal score! :):):):):)

Frankly, Andreas had the best music. He uses it with two different horses too! :) You have to get the audience involved, having music you can relate to does that. Even if you pick elevator versions of music, it still has a better over all relationship to your viewer. Music that sounds like it is background, or measured to your horse with a dull thud will make you tune out, and make the viewer look around for more interesting stimulus. IE: not you and your horse!

MHO dressage kurs are in need of revamping. If you want an audience to like you, or if you even want an audience so you can make the sport more endearing to the public you need more interesting choreographed rides. Sorry, classic aficionados, we need **something**!

Sannois
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:55 PM
After reading the GP, Special and Freestyle threads blow by blow (I can barely open my email with my pathetic dial up service out here in the country, let along get live feed)-and I have no cable or dish...I actually feel better about my own personal riding accomplishments and goals. The true purpose of "dressage" has been lost along the way somewhere. Klimke said that the purpose of dressage is to make the horse more beautiful. Dressage evolved from the quest for a better trained, more athletic horse. Read the collective marks. Seems that the judging is overlooking harmony, relaxation, etc. for what they consider "brilliant". To me there is no brilliance without the subtlty of aids, harmony between horse and rider, etc. Tension is not part of the desired picture or training scale. In the future, when I compete, I will strive for the perfection and beauty of the partnership, the invisible aids, the "horse seeming to perform of his own will, etc. Won't really matter how those judges that reward brilliance over correctness score me. All this crap puts things in a different light (for me) and I will so enjoy the journey that much more. I'm not great at putting things into words, but hope that I have made my point.
It seems to be sadly missing in alot of todays upper level tests.

petitefilly
Aug. 20, 2008, 01:56 PM
Steffen had difficulties with his farm implement and Isabel had an issue with a bacon producing quadruped.

OHMYGOD!!! :):):):):):)

Sweet Jesus, Steffen could stick that implement up a German's tuckus, and Isabell could throw him in a pan of frying oil. 'Nuff said!


:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

Coreene
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:13 PM
De Nederlanders waren al bekend met de grillige beoordelingen van de Duitster Gotthilf Riexinger. De Amerikanen hebben gisteren in de afsluitende Kür kennisgemaakt met de juryvoorzitter. In deze Kür gaf de Duitser als enige de als vierde geëindigde Amerikaan Steffen Peters geen top drie plaats. Waar de vier overige juryleden hem zowel voor het artistieke als technische gedeelte een derde of soms zelfs tweede plaats gaven, kwam Riexinger niet verder dan een zesde plek voor het technische en zelfs een negende voor het artistieke gedeelte. Het uiteindelijke verschil tussen de bronzen medaillewinnares Kemmer en nummer vier Peters bedroeg slechts 0,305%. Na afloop in de persconferentie kreeg de Duitsers een aantal vragen vanuit het Amerikaanse kamp, maar toonde hij zich nogmaals onvermurwbaar.

Roughly translated, the Dutch already knew ol' Gotthilf was a tool. Now the Americans have been introduced to His Toolness as well.

freestyle2music
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:36 PM
De Nederlanders waren al bekend met de grillige beoordelingen van de Duitster Gotthilf Riexinger. De Amerikanen hebben gisteren in de afsluitende Kür kennisgemaakt met de juryvoorzitter. In deze Kür gaf de Duitser als enige de als vierde geëindigde Amerikaan Steffen Peters geen top drie plaats. Waar de vier overige juryleden hem zowel voor het artistieke als technische gedeelte een derde of soms zelfs tweede plaats gaven, kwam Riexinger niet verder dan een zesde plek voor het technische en zelfs een negende voor het artistieke gedeelte. Het uiteindelijke verschil tussen de bronzen medaillewinnares Kemmer en nummer vier Peters bedroeg slechts 0,305%. Na afloop in de persconferentie kreeg de Duitsers een aantal vragen vanuit het Amerikaanse kamp, maar toonde hij zich nogmaals onvermurwbaar.

Roughly translated, the Dutch already knew ol' Gotthilf was a tool. Now the Americans have been introduced to His Toolness as well.

But Coreene when you translate Riexinger's firstname, you should know that he was send and guided by God, so he couldn't have done anything wrong.

Theo

Coreene
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:43 PM
But Coreene when you translate Riexinger's firstname, you should know that he was send and guided by God, so he couldn't have done anything wrong.

Theo:lol: :lol: :lol: Lucifer? Veel beter!

BridalBridle
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:53 PM
The FEI is going to look into it. So why not get the PTA to do it. You'll get the same result. NOTHING.

Fixerupper
Aug. 20, 2008, 03:54 PM
De Nederlanders waren al bekend met de grillige beoordelingen van de Duitster Gotthilf Riexinger. De Amerikanen hebben gisteren in de afsluitende Kür kennisgemaakt met de juryvoorzitter. In deze Kür gaf de Duitser als enige de als vierde geëindigde Amerikaan Steffen Peters geen top drie plaats. Waar de vier overige juryleden hem zowel voor het artistieke als technische gedeelte een derde of soms zelfs tweede plaats gaven, kwam Riexinger niet verder dan een zesde plek voor het technische en zelfs een negende voor het artistieke gedeelte. Het uiteindelijke verschil tussen de bronzen medaillewinnares Kemmer en nummer vier Peters bedroeg slechts 0,305%. Na afloop in de persconferentie kreeg de Duitsers een aantal vragen vanuit het Amerikaanse kamp, maar toonde hij zich nogmaals onvermurwbaar.

Fiona PLEASE translate this one as well.....please,please
(I'm still howling at the first one!!!)

Beezer
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:21 PM
Roughly translated, the Dutch already knew ol' Gotthilf was a tool. Now the Americans have been introduced to His Toolness as well.

Clearly, this tool is the hoe that Steffan had so much trouble with. And you know what happens to troublesome garden implements, don't you? Why, in the middle of the night, the gnomes take the bad hoes out to the woodshed and separate their heads from their shafts.

Hence the phrase "getting shafted."

Coreene
Aug. 20, 2008, 04:46 PM
Hence the phrase "getting shafted."Well, they don't call him Stiffy for nuthin'. ;)

freestyle2music
Aug. 20, 2008, 05:07 PM
The Dutch had already some experiences with the strange judging of Riexinger. The USA yesterday found this out for themselves during the freestyle to music finals. In these finals the German judge Riexinger was the only judge who didn't place Steffen Peters in the top three. While the other four judges placed Steffen both technical and artistical at place 2 and 3. Riexinger decided to give Steffen place 6 and place 9. The difference between bronze (Heike Kemmer) and Steffen was only 0.305%. At the press-conference after the freestyle to music, Riexinger got a lot of questions from the American journalists, however he kept his back straight and was very stubern in his answers.



De Nederlanders waren al bekend met de grillige beoordelingen van de Duitster Gotthilf Riexinger. De Amerikanen hebben gisteren in de afsluitende Kür kennisgemaakt met de juryvoorzitter. In deze Kür gaf de Duitser als enige de als vierde geëindigde Amerikaan Steffen Peters geen top drie plaats. Waar de vier overige juryleden hem zowel voor het artistieke als technische gedeelte een derde of soms zelfs tweede plaats gaven, kwam Riexinger niet verder dan een zesde plek voor het technische en zelfs een negende voor het artistieke gedeelte. Het uiteindelijke verschil tussen de bronzen medaillewinnares Kemmer en nummer vier Peters bedroeg slechts 0,305%. Na afloop in de persconferentie kreeg de Duitsers een aantal vragen vanuit het Amerikaanse kamp, maar toonde hij zich nogmaals onvermurwbaar.