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slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:19 AM
"Anky had a good test but no pizzaz."

And of course, that comment has nothing to do with how you've trashed anky for eons, does it. Your eye needs some medical assistance.

Satchmo's new old lady owner will live through about one ride. Then she will start with longeing, Natural Horsemanship, Parelli, and lots and lots of medication - for herself!

That is absolute bull about Anky not deserving her placing. THAT IS BULL.

And Steffen was NOT robbed. It did not have the technical strengths. It had the artistic, not the technical needed to go higher. RELAX. The horse did his first GP in MAY! You cannot win even a free style with such big pirouettes and such moving piaffe. What more do you want, this is how the horse SHOULD be performing. Try not to be so greedy all the time. And no, really, if Theo says he should have gotten second, remember, Theo is not a judge, he is a music man. As he so many times says.

I don't understand that much, but I did catch that Anky called for Sjeff earlier. He was probably getting drunk in the bar with his new girlfriend Heike, don't you all think?

And I think when Anky and Isabel talked, Anky said she was surprised by her own score and sympathy for how Satchmo behaved. Isabel said, 'C'est la vie'. I think they spoke very well to eachother. Now if only those on the bulletin board could have some sportsmanship....it is a horse show. What happened, happened. The judges are not all crazy, blind, paid off.

ponyjumper4
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:19 AM
I didn't get see much of the rides as the computer was acting up, but in the times I've watched these riders, I just haven't seen how they are head and shoulders above the rest. Yes, they are good, no doubt about it and the best on most days, but I don't see how they are THAT much better.

lxt
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:19 AM
I agree with Theo actually. But thought Anky was very good today and deserved the win.

Bugs-n-Frodo
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:20 AM
Yes, but, here are Steffen's mistakes:

1. He did not coreography a bulk run backwards transition.
2. He HALTED at the end.
3. His name is not Anky Van Everyjudgeclosetheireyesandignoreanyunevennessormi stakeGrunsven.

ridgeback
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:21 AM
Steffen was NOT robbed. It did not have the technical strengths. It had the artistic, not the technical needed to go higher. RELAX. The horse did his first GP in MAY! WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT? YOU WANT TOO MUCH. DON'T BE SO GREEDY!

I don't understand that much, but I think when Anky and Isabel talked, Anky said she was surprised by her own score and sympathy for how Satchmo behaved. Isabel said, 'C'est la vie'. I think they spoke very well to eachother. Now if only those on the bulletin board could have some sportsmanship....

Wasn't it in March?

TeddyRocks
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:25 AM
Go team USA... Look out London 2012!

Now I can go get redy for the Tropical Storm Fay that's gonna pass through here shortly... :-) "It's getting ready to storm out here..."

Bats79
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:25 AM
Well it was choreographed to a t. Didn't miss a beat and neither did the horse.

Was it worth 82+%? Sure - but only if Steffan P's was worth 81% and Balagur's was worth 80% in my opinion.

But the problem is with the scoring of the Special not the scoring of the Kur. Artistically she's the best. Technically - not by a long shot.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:27 AM
I actually came into this hoping to root for Isabel (it was her turn. :lol:)

But honestly, I am here crying at my computer with Anky's fabulous ride. She knew she had to be amazing--and she was. I mean extended canter to a double pirouette? Amazing. She nailed it all. You could see her start to smile in the last passage half pass. She couldn't halt at the end because she was too excited! That was the only mistake.

She deserves it. A fabulous horsewoman, awesome rider--super competitor. Anky RULES.

P.S. Watch out--Ravel is coming up!

freestyle2music
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:33 AM
Well it was choreographed to a t. Didn't miss a beat and neither did the horse.

Was it worth 82+%? Sure - but only if Steffan P's was worth 81% and Balagur's was worth 80% in my opinion.

But the problem is with the scoring of the Special not the scoring of the Kur. Artistically she's the best. Technically - not by a long shot.


Very funny, because it's the other way around. Allthough Anky improved her degree of difficulty, it is still a simple choreography. And as stated many times before many other riders are tooooooo ambitious and didn't read the judge guidelines.

Theo

Signing off to open a bottle of champagne

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:33 AM
There was no way Balagur was going to get a 80. He is not that horse. He has NEVER done like that. You can't have a horse walk into the Olympics and say, 'Ok, so now that he is here, he is going to get much better scores than he ever did in his life in this company'. It's irrrational. He just is not that strong technically. You don't want to see his ride in a realistic light - why, i don't know. Because he's white? Because he has a Cinderella story? Probably. But we have just heard too many times, how perfect he is. Open up your eyes. I love the horse too and how he came from police horse, but come on. Really. Isn't it enough that he did really well? Do you HAVE to scream foul because he didn't win?

I agree with Eclectic. It was a beautiful freestyle and it was the best on the day. The level of difficulty especially. And I really like the simpler choreography.

I think people just hate Anky so much they can't look at her rides with an unbiased eye. They just take all their emotion and hatred about her warmup method, and absolutely refuse to see what's actually going on. They have built it up in their mind to where they believe she killed Idool, she is causing horses horrible pain.

Look with your eyes instead of your emotions. You are seeing what you WANT to see, not what is there. Isabel, non rollkur so you think, vs Anky, rollkur, so you think, which horse leaped back and did not piaffe? Well? It is because it isn't about whether it is rollkur or not, it is just horses. They do things like that sometimes.

I won't train my horse with extreme methods, but I ALSO won't make my eye see something that is not there and distort reality just for my emotions.

Elegante E
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:34 AM
Interesting, for all his nerves, Isabel's horse doesn't need a groomd right by his side to walk out!
added: that's for the awards ceremony.

Bugs-n-Frodo
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:35 AM
Honestly, it would be nice to have an Olumpics without Anky. This was a good ride, I was not impressed with her music (the artistic aspect was dry, IMO) but the ride was super. My problem is that they tend to scre her rides off the charts even when they are NOT as good as that one was. It tends to make me a little tiny bit bitter. I though Steffen's ride was VERY strong and the coreography was good. I would have scored it:

1. Anky
2. Steffen
3 Isabel

Just one year though, it would be nice to give other riders a chance since, going into it, we all know Anky will take the Gold.

Mike Matson
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:36 AM
I'm looking forward to the 75 one-handed tempi changes by Anky on Salinero during the victory lap, just like Dr. Klimke did in the 1984 Olympics. ;)

Bugs-n-Frodo
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:37 AM
I'm looking forward to the 75 one-handed tempi changes by Anky on Salinero during the victory lap, just like Dr. Klimke did in the 1984 Olympics. ;)

:lol: As long as she does not have to halt! :lol:

Roan
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:41 AM
Well it was choreographed to a t. Didn't miss a beat and neither did the horse.

Was it worth 82+%? Sure - but only if Steffan P's was worth 81% and Balagur's was worth 80% in my opinion.

But the problem is with the scoring of the Special not the scoring of the Kur. Artistically she's the best. Technically - not by a long shot.
Well said.

Eileen

tx3dayeventer
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:45 AM
Is it normal for Anky's horse to immediately have 4 bell boots put on after his test? Is he that hard to handle/excitable?

I am an eventer, so therefore I am curious.

I am in love with Ravel, wow he is fancy!!!! And I LOVE his floppy ears!

Elegante E
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:49 AM
[QUOTE=tx3dayeventer;3455972]Is it normal for Anky's horse to immediately have 4 bell boots put on after his test? Is he that hard to handle/excitable?QUOTE]

It's normal for Anky to face a near death experience during her "victory lap". Wonder if they weight the bell boots to keep his feet on the ground.

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:50 AM
I'm not, Mike. I think that's a pretty sh**** thing to do to a horse after he has already worked hard enough that day. Klimke the great yadda yadda yadda but I think it stinks to play to the crowd like that after a horse has done his best work that day.

Elegante, you just have to find something to hate. Interesting. An american rider can do anything and they are 'caring' and 'good'. A foreigner sneezes and they're bad.

It is common now to use shoes that protect heels from bruises, but then bell boots should be on as much of the time as possible. Many people now use such shoes as a preventative. They work. I wish I had started doing it about 20 years earlier.

SGray
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:55 AM
the "victory gallop" has changed to the "victory jog-trot"

evenstar
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:56 AM
I award two sets of medals: one pair for Anky and Isabel to duke it out, and a set for the rest of the competitors, who seem to score on a slightly different scale.

Heike and Bonaparte left the door open just a bit for Steffan but not enough for him to overcome the GPS scoring. I would have loved to see him move up, but I'm also quite thrilled for Heike - she was so excited and happy with her medal in the awards ceremony.

I also noticed that Bonaparte is such a good egg that she rode her victory lap with her roses in one hand. I actually thought for awhile that Salinero would be led the whole way around the ring, fueling speculation (in my mind at least) that Anky could be pregnant again (:)), but he did go around quite nicely - no mad dashes or silliness.

Also, while it apparently is still not clear how Anky dismounts when Salinero never halts, we did get to witness that she can mount perfectly well while he is piaffing! (said with tongue firmly in cheek :D)

tx3dayeventer
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:56 AM
You just have to find something to hate. Interesting. An american rider can do anything and they are 'caring' and 'good'. A foreigner sneezes and they're bad.

It is common now to use shoes that protect heels from bruises, but then bell boots should be on as much of the time as possible. Many people now use such shoes as a preventative. They work.

I hope that was not directed at me?!?! I thought her ride was great! I only wish I could ride like her! And he is obviously well cared for, look at that shine! I admire anyone that can ride dressage as well as the people that are in Hong Kong right now.

I have never seen her ride him and I was wondering. He looked quite excitable (ok he looked ready to explode) and I was curious if this was normal behavior for him b/c they certainly seemed prepared. Oh and the groom having to lead Anky around the first 1/2 lap in the "lap of honor" might have clued me in as well.


Ok I know that was not directed at me now. Thank you to those who explained he is usually a bit silly.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:56 AM
the "victory gallop" has changed to the "victory jog-trot"

Better than the "Victory Death Wish!" :lol:

dressagetraks
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:58 AM
Ah well.

I really didn't expect bronze for Steffen, but what an Olympics he's had with that young horse. Look out, 2010 and 2012. Courtney, too.

Isabell gets the Nerves of Steel award and is the one whose riding has inspired me most.

But Anky deserved the win today.

Planning to see them live in 2010!!!!! Go USA!!!!

Mike Matson
Aug. 19, 2008, 11:05 AM
slc,

Go back and read Klimke's book about Ahlerich and how he properly prepared Ahlerich for the heat at the Olympics in 1984 at Los Angeles. That's why Ahlerich still looks fresh on that lap of honor. And those tempi changes were not showmanship on his part - that was horsemanship and a demonstration of a true partnership between horse and rider.

cottagefarm
Aug. 19, 2008, 11:15 AM
Is there a link anywhere that you can see the bloodlines, ages etc of the top 12 or so horses?

vineyridge
Aug. 19, 2008, 11:21 AM
The Beijing Olympics site has the horse biographies in its competitor listings.

petitefilly
Aug. 19, 2008, 11:27 AM
My heart is with Ravel and Steffen, what a pair. Anky can kiss my ___! :):):):):):)

<like she cares!>

I also scored:
1. Anky
2. Steffen
3. O'Isabell of no piaffe in her horse. (He hates it! I bet he has an issue there.)

God Bless Ravel, he is a creature of supreme talent.

mxkextended
Aug. 19, 2008, 11:30 AM
It was nice to hear Heike praising Steffans ride to her friends right after Steffans ride, something like, you couldn't ask for anything better.

The bronze medal was definitely decided in the GPSpecial, but the scoring of the german judge looks rather suspect to me. Placing him about 8th in the Freestyle? compared to most of the judges who placed him third or even second?

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 11:32 AM
He would be in good company if it's a piaffe issue. Like for example, Gifted. He got to a point where he wouldn't piaffe in the ring either. They do eventually figure out that mommy doesn't have a whip, and that they don't have to piaffe if they don't feel like it.

Minaret
Aug. 19, 2008, 11:40 AM
I'm looking forward to the 75 one-handed tempi changes by Anky on Salinero during the victory lap, just like Dr. Klimke did in the 1984 Olympics. ;)

Nice juxtaposition. Thanks for pointing that out!

It's ridability vs. showability.

Lead line victory laps or something.

AM
Aug. 19, 2008, 11:41 AM
I'm late to this discussion but why would you pick such feminine music for the Russian stallion. I thought the My Fair Lady music was bad enough but when "I Feel Pretty" from Flower Drum Song came on, I had to check the program to make sure he was a stallion.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Aug. 19, 2008, 11:46 AM
I think all riders should wear masks and the horses will magically need to change their appearance (the ID-ing would take place before the judges get to seem them), maybe then we'd see scores reflecting the rides, and not the perceptions of their names and abilities. :winkgrin:

fish
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:19 PM
Nice juxtaposition. Thanks for pointing that out!

It's ridability vs. showability.

Lead line victory laps or something.

I find it pretty ironic that this has happened to a sport supposedly built upon a training system developed to produce horses physically and mentally sound enough to be ridden into battle-- in a double bridle so the rider could easily guide his horse with one hand while wielding a sword with another.

While the dressage champion's victory gallop morphs into a pony ride due to the intractability of her horse, Olympic eventers and show jumping medalists with their supposedly inferior dressage, can still be seen doing victory gallops with one hand (or none-- as in the case of Jus de Pommes, 1996), while proudly carrying flags.

Thank goodness for the hunters, where calm and relaxation remain a never to be abandoned basic, and for the many dressage riders who do continue to strive for excellence in traditional terms in spite of what goes on in that 'separate class of 2' receiving the medals.

And no, I do not blame the judges. I blame the way the tests are written and the new directive that replaced "relaxation" with a "happiness" that seems to include something akin to mania (i.e. "explosiveness") in the horses. Steinbrecht must be doing quadruple flips in his grave.

Brady'smom
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:24 PM
Tried to find the CBC's 'Bold' station (what used to be CBC's Country Canada) on bell expressvu - nearly had a heart attack when I found out live dressage coverage was on - and of course the channel didn't even appear on the sat.

Then I discovered the live CBC stream!!

I was in time to watch isabel and anky. Isabel's 'boot-boot-boot' at the backward piaffe I had sympathy for (we all ride real horses, that was one of those moments). Anky's ride was fine. What got me was I wasn't sure if she was in shock after dismounting or what, but to me after the huge 'woo-hoo-throw-the-reins-away' when she finished compared to how dull she looked walking around afterwards? I thought either she's drained or a gold just doesn't mean that much anymore...

Wish I had been able to see more than two rides (at work now), but these were the two I would have chosen to see!

ponyjumper4
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:33 PM
Isn't she basically supposed to be retiring this year from the upper levels and focusing on staying home and developing youngsters?

freestyle2music
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:35 PM
slc,

Go back and read Klimke's book about Ahlerich and how he properly prepared Ahlerich for the heat at the Olympics in 1984 at Los Angeles. That's why Ahlerich still looks fresh on that lap of honor. And those tempi changes were not showmanship on his part - that was horsemanship and a demonstration of a true partnership between horse and rider.

Please Mike can you stop playing my grandfather. He always told me that everything in the old days was better. And also don't pretend that you know how Klimke thought, I was sitting with Reiner on a bag of hay in the stables at Arnheim to figure out the choreography and music for his son Michael. My sister rode with/against Reiner for many years and Reiner and I have spend some very valuable time together. Please stop inflating yourself by posting rides from Reiner , specialy because he told himself that this was one of his worst rides ever.

Furthermore I have seen riders in their jeans doing tons of one hand tempichanges on a horse they never rode before (remember Johan Hinneman)

Theo

yaya
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:39 PM
Isn't she basically supposed to be retiring this year from the upper levels and focusing on staying home and developing youngsters?

Youngsters of the human persuasion.

yaya
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:40 PM
While the dressage champion's victory gallop morphs into a pony ride due to the intractability of her horse, Olympic eventers and show jumping medalists with their supposedly inferior dressage, can still be seen doing victory gallops with one hand (or none-- as in the case of Jus de Pommes, 1996), while proudly carrying flags.



Marius (I forget the rider's name - isn't that always the way? Remember the horse, not the rider) did it this year after his double gold medals. No hands on the reins, flag in one hand and waving.

capricorn
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:44 PM
It looks to me like the German judge knocked Steffen out of the medals because he scored him far lower in both tests than any of the other judges did.

ridgeback
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:44 PM
Please Mike can you stop playing my grandfather. He always told me that everything in the old days was better. And also don't pretend that you know how Klimke thought, I was sitting with Reiner on a bag of hay in the stables at Arnheim to figure out the choreography and music for his son Michael. My sister rode with/against Reiner for many years and Reiner and I have spend some very valuable time together. Please stop inflating yourself by posting rides from Reiner , specialy because he told himself that this was one of his worst rides ever.

Furthermore I have seen riders in their jeans doing tons of one hand tempichanges on a horse they never rode before (remember Johan Hinneman)

Theo

Theo this isn't your sandbox Mike can post and say whatever he wants:cool:

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:53 PM
Both, actually, are entitled to opine here, ridgeback, both Theo AND Mike. However, for one to look like a grandfather, the other one needs to look like a grandchild ;) Both of them are acting silly, in other words. Theo, you are reminding me of my brother who lost his **** when he found a 1/4" piece of carrot on the floor of his Chrysler New Yorker. In other words, you are over-reacting. Mike as usual is doing his 'good old days' routine, but so are a lot of other people. I can assure you, it is much worse than hearing Pachabel's Canon 30 times.

Klimke was no more Theo's property than he was anyone else's. Working on a freestyle for his daughter doesn't mean Theo has some big line to Klimke's soul that no one else can touch, or that he can speak for him from the grave. It is nice, but Klimke worked with a LOT of different people. He traveled all over, clinic'd all over, endorsed Miller equipment....He even told me my dog was a nice mover. That doesn't exactly mean him and me are LIKE THIS.

But it is also true that Klimke did not say it was his best ride. I don't really think he said it was completely trash, either, though.

Mike Matson
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:59 PM
Theo says Dr. Klimke said the 1984 Olympics GPS was one of the worst rides of his life.

Here's what Dr. Klimke said about the ride in his book about Ahlerich:


In the GPS on the 2nd day Ahlerich had trouble coping with the heat. His strength lessened. I had to ask more strongly. Ahlerich accepted this, mobilised his abilities and played his part. One can't talk with horses but I imagine this: on this day Ahlerich knew what it was all about. He exceeded himself. ..... It was one of the most beautiful days of my life. Such an intimate connection between horse and rider I have rarely experienced.

Now who are we to believe, Theo or Dr. Klimke? ;)

Equibrit
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:59 PM
Who cares.

Steffen Peters and Ravel were pretty impressive!

ridgeback
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:00 PM
Both, actually, are entitled to opine here, ridgeback, both Theo AND Mike. However, for one to look like a grandfather, the other one needs to look like a grandchild ;) Both of them are acting silly, in other words. Theo, you are reminding me of my brother who lost his **** when he found a 1/4" piece of carrot on the floor of his Chrysler New Yorker. In other words, you are over-reacting. Mike as usual is doing his 'good old days' routine, but so are a lot of other people. I can assure you, it is much worse than hearing Pachabel's Canon 30 times.

Klimke was no more Theo's property than he was anyone else's. Working on a freestyle for his daughter doesn't mean Theo has some big line to Klimke's soul that no one else can touch, or that he can speak for him from the grave. It is nice, but Klimke worked with a LOT of different people. He traveled all over, clinic'd all over, endorsed Miller equipment....He even told me my dog was a nice mover. That doesn't exactly mean him and me are LIKE THIS.

But it is also true that Klimke did not say it was his best ride. I don't really think he said it was completely trash, either, though.

OMG shut up!!! The difference is Mike isn't telling people what they can or can't do but you and Theo sure love to tell people what the can and can't say...

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:01 PM
OMG shut up yourself, ridgeback, you spend FAR more time telling people they're saying the wrong thing than Mike, Theo and me combined.

And I'm also free to disagree with you, should I be so moved.

"In the GPS on the 2nd day Ahlerich had trouble coping with the heat"

Oh let me see. Who was it who said Ahlerich didn't look like all the crappy dressage horses of today, because Klimke did all that special conditioning to prepare him PROPERLY for the heat, unlike the stupid uncaring riders of today who don't know how to prepare their horses........LOL!!!!!!

Mike Matson
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:09 PM
slc,

Am I going to have to post the entire Ahlerich book for you? :)



In short work periods and long pauses walking, we gradually go used to the heat.

In the Grand Prix Special the next day, the heat bothered Ahlerich a little more. He lost energy, and I had to push more. Ahlerich cooperated, mobilized his abilities, and went along with it. I know we cannot talk to horses, but I believe that Ahlerich knew what was going on that day. He outdid himself.


Anybody see any excessive sweating on Ahlerich in the test or the victory lap? :)

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:12 PM
slc,

Am I going to have to post the entire Ahlerich book for you? :)



Anybody see any excessive sweating on Ahlerich in the test or the victory lap? :)

That was probably why he was having trouble coping. Sweating is how the body cools itself. Horse doesn't drink and/or replenish electolytes can't sweat and does not cope with the heat well.

What a silly debate. :no:

Mike Matson
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:17 PM
In my post I said "excessive" sweating. Of course the horse was sweating.

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:17 PM
"Do I have to quote the entire book for you"

Not really. I have it next to me right now. You should know, Mike, I sleep with it under my pillow.

And the point is that no matter how well you condition a horse to perform in heat, something can go wrong and the horse can be affected by the heat.

Which is what I feel. I don't feel if the horses are sweating, first of all, that that's a crime. Horses NEED to sweat. I've always been told the thinner the sweat and the freer they sweat the better.

Too, I don't feel that if the horses were making noise and sweating, that they were necessarily not properly conditioned, or that the riders these days don't bother to condition them properly, don't know how, etc.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:21 PM
As an aside, I did read that the stables and warm up indoor arena were airconditioned. I wonder what effect that has? I know that I do not like going in and out of AC, particularly to exercise outside...

Has this ever been done before?

monstrpony
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:21 PM
What's contradictory about it not being the best test of his life, and him still feeling a wonderful connection with the horse, who still tried in difficult conditions? Is the perfect test the only be-all, end-all with horses? Of course not!

TraksRuleDutchDrool
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:22 PM
slc,

Am I going to have to post the entire Ahlerich book for you? :)



Maybe not for SLC, but for me :D I'm dying to read and can't find/afford a copy!

canyonoak
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:22 PM
You know--Im old, and I was THERE.

I was a volunteer in Los Angeles, best 'seat' in the house, right outside the arena waiting for tests, and watched Dr. Klimke and 'Ali' in all their tests, in the victory dance (it was nothing less that a celebration) and I've seen a lot of these current Olympic horses in the flesh.

These are silly arguments y'all are having.

If Dr. K was alive and competing today, he would be every bit as fiercely competitive as he ever was, and he would pick through whatever changes in horses, in styles, in risk-taking, in techniques, in figuring out where the money points are--and he would react accordingly.

Same as Isabell uses a version of rollkur and yet posts the trot before and after her rides--to show the classic connection, the foundation to her process.


The great ones do not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And I include Anky under the term 'great'.

TraksRuleDutchDrool
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:28 PM
I find it pretty ironic that this has happened to a sport supposedly built upon a training system developed to produce horses physically and mentally sound enough to be ridden into battle-- in a double bridle so the rider could easily guide his horse with one hand while wielding a sword with another.

While the dressage champion's victory gallop morphs into a pony ride due to the intractability of her horse, Olympic eventers and show jumping medalists with their supposedly inferior dressage, can still be seen doing victory gallops with one hand (or none-- as in the case of Jus de Pommes, 1996), while proudly carrying flags.

Thank goodness for the hunters, where calm and relaxation remain a never to be abandoned basic, and for the many dressage riders who do continue to strive for excellence in traditional terms in spite of what goes on in that 'separate class of 2' receiving the medals.

And no, I do not blame the judges. I blame the way the tests are written and the new directive that replaced "relaxation" with a "happiness" that seems to include something akin to mania (i.e. "explosiveness") in the horses. Steinbrecht must be doing quadruple flips in his grave.

YES! I completely agree, but then isn't this the difference between Classical and Competitive Dressage (which is a whole other topic).

I didn't see all the rides, I turned the TV on (yah Bold!) and saw the end of Anky's Gold medal performance. To me, it didn't look good, the horse did not look straight in the half pass and so tense (not focused, not collected, yes, I mean stressed)..and a horse that can not halt...ah well...I'm not riding at that level so I don't know if I can talk lol!

I thought Bonaparte looked fantastic in the honour lap, but then again, he (?) reminds me of my mare :D

Darden
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:40 PM
SLC - I believe that Gifted's autopsy revealed that he had a degenerative disorder in his spine that would made it very difficult for him to piaffe. I remember Carol commenting on this and that it helped solve the mystery as to why piaffe was so difficult for him later in his career.

That's my recollection and I followed him pretty closely.

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 01:44 PM
If he had kissing spine, you should know that MOST if not all older horses show that on autopsy, usually without any symptoms associated with it. I would not automatically assume that if there were some changes in his back that it would mean he physically could not piaffe. He piaffed fine in training, incidentally, he would not in the competition. Carol Lavel discussed it very openly in the magazine interviews, etc. And I am SURE, absolutely, positively, that if he showed any discomfort at all, Carol would never have had him doing any piaffe work. You're tatamount to saying that Carol was forcing him to piaffe when he was physically unable, and that is absolutely, positively not true.

Roan
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:53 PM
Marks ae posted now:

http://www.fei.org/olympics/results/2008Results/Documents/Dressage-Judges%20marks%20after%20GPF-19Aug08.pdf

Eileen

egontoast
Aug. 19, 2008, 02:58 PM
Klimke was a formidable driven competitor with amazing technical skills. None of this lahdeedah 'I'm classical in my backyard' voodoo for him! he combined the classical training of the higheest order with the competitive spirit. Very competitive. Very correct. Lovely stuff.

Who cares what I think but ,Oh well,so what, I think of all today' s Big Time Riders, Isabel is the closest to Klimke. The foundation is rock solid, her horses are like accordians connected back to front and she is an amazon in the ring. With Satchmo, she has worked through a lot to bring out his ability or 'genius' as she calls it. I love that quote about him being a sensitive genius because she does not blame the horse for a disobedience which cost her a gold medal.

I think from all I have seen that she's a great horseperson.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:01 PM
From the USDF Directory-

"USEF & FEI Rules for FEI-Level Freestyles

At the beginning and end, a halt with a salute is compulsory. Note: There is no recommendation or requirement that the competitor must face C for the halt and salute. A rider who does not halt for the salute is eliminated"


(Italics mine)

Well that's interesting.

How does the rule define "halt" and "salute?" Is there a durational halt requirement (i.e., number of seconds?)


I clearly saw a halt. If you blinked, you missed it. :lol:

Anyone know what the movement was the SP got 4s on??? :confused:

SGray
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:01 PM
Thanks Roan!!

XHalt
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:35 PM
How does the rule define "halt" and "salute?" Is there a durational halt requirement (i.e., number of seconds?)


I clearly saw a halt. If you blinked, you missed it. :lol:

Anyone know what the movement was the SP got 4s on??? :confused:

His 2's

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:37 PM
His 2's

Thanks, I'll have to watch that again more carefully.

Darden
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:41 PM
(SLC - I wrote about him. A fair bit. :) And I remember what Carol said about the cumulative work in a test and the difficulty to piaffe at that time. And I remember specifically the In the Country story about his back and her comments. I just don't think it's accurate to portray him as naughty and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth)

.. now back to the action...

Roan
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:46 PM
Klimke was a formidable driven competitor with amazing technical skills. None of this lahdeedah 'I'm classical in my backyard' voodoo for him! he combined the classical training of the higheest order with the competitive spirit. Very competitive. Very correct. Lovely stuff.

Who cares what I think but ,Oh well,so what, I think of all today' s Big Time Riders, Isabel is the closest to Klimke. The foundation is rock solid, her horses are like accordians connected back to front and she is an amazon in the ring. With Satchmo, she has worked through a lot to bring out his ability or 'genius' as she calls it. I love that quote about him being a sensitive genius because she does not blame the horse for a disobedience which cost her a gold medal.

I think from all I have seen that she's a great horseperson.

I care what you think, so thfffpt ;)

And I agree 100%

Eileen

slc2
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:47 PM
I agree with the above post from egon. I think Isabel is closest to Klimke, in results.

"to portray him as naughty"

it has nothing to do with being 'naughty' and I never used that word, you're putting words in MY mouth more than i am in yours. It just happens, I make no moral judgement on it. It happened to Balkenhol, it happened with that horse, it happens with a LOT of horses. After years and years of going in the ring and doing tests, the horses figure it out. They aren't being naughty at all, they are just being horses. That's just how it is. It doesn't mean anyone is doing anything wrong. It's just that when that happens, then there isn't a whole lot of sense in taking them in the ring.

Same thing with Satchmo. If that starts to be a habit with him, he's done. There is no reason to yet assume it's going to be a habit, or that Isabel somehow screwed up and caused it. It just happened a couple of times at one competition. But that's what a rider dreads. THat it can become a habit. Horses develop habits very, very easily. As one trainer I worked with said, 'JUST DON'T MAKE A MISTAKE', LOL. Because it gets to be a habit.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 19, 2008, 03:56 PM
"to portray him as naughty"

it has nothing to do with being 'naughty' and I never used that word. It just happens. It happened to Balkenhol, it happened with that horse, it happens with a LOT of horses. After years and years of going in the ring and doing tests, the horses figure it out. They aren't being naughty at all, they are just being horses. That's just how it is. It doesn't mean anyone is doing anything wrong. It's just that when that happens, then there isn't a whole lot of sense in taking them in the ring.

Same thing with Satchmo. If that starts to be a habit with him, he's done. There is no reason to yet assume it's going to be a habit. It just happened a couple of times at one competition. But that's what a rider dreads. THat it can become a habit. Horses develop habits very, very easily. As one trainer I worked with said, 'JUST DON'T MAKE A MISTAKE', LOL. Because it gets to be a habit.

My thought in the walk shortly after the piaffe backwards blow, was that Satchmo looked quite short on his right hind. Certainly could have whacked or tweaked himself during his outburst, but you gotta wonder whether something may be cooking, too. The veterinary diagnostics available aren't equal to humans--and even with humans it is sometimes hard to figure out when something is NQR, such as nerve pain.

Yes, Darden I agree that the initial disobediences are often caused by discomfort.

Yes, slc, I agree that these disobediences can become habitual even after the initial cause is eliminated. The horse learns he CAN say "NO." Frequently seen in the jumpers.

Elegante E
Aug. 19, 2008, 05:17 PM
Wow. Just looked at the tests. Someone explain to me how SP got 4/5 for the tempis (yes, the haunches did swing a bit in the early ones), but Kemmer didn't get one score below 6 when her horse stopped and refused to piafe?????

Mardi
Aug. 19, 2008, 05:33 PM
Absolutley ridiculous!

I agree. I was disappointed. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic.

For the #1 rider in the world not be able to accomplish a halt and salute TO THE JUDGES at the end of her test in the Olympic games is embarassing for the sport.

It's also sloppy riding, IMHO. I don't care you who are.

XHalt
Aug. 19, 2008, 05:53 PM
Wow. Just looked at the tests. Someone explain to me how SP got 4/5 for the tempis (yes, the haunches did swing a bit in the early ones), but Kemmer didn't get one score below 6 when her horse stopped and refused to piafe?????

Ravel kicked out in the first change, changed together behind in the second and his haunches were really swinging. It's a shame, it cost him the medal (judging aside!).

dressagetraks
Aug. 19, 2008, 06:43 PM
Interesting quote on COTH coverage from Anky herself, in light of the above rule cited about halt being required. She admits that Salinero did not halt, says she waited for him to do so and realized he had not halted, but knew that she had already won and thought, "Oh, he doesn't have to do this."

Um, actually, technically, judging from the above RULE, yes, he does, Anky.

cu.at.x
Aug. 19, 2008, 06:51 PM
Interesting quote on COTH coverage from Anky herself, in light of the above rule cited about halt being required. She admits that Salinero did not halt, says she waited for him to do so and realized he had not halted, but knew that she had already won and thought, "Oh, he doesn't have to do this."

Um, actually, technically, judging from the above RULE, yes, he does, Anky.

Well, of course....neither is a four-beat walk required.....apparently. *sigh*

dressagetraks
Aug. 19, 2008, 06:55 PM
Wonder what my trainer's reaction would be if I ever pulled that line in a lesson at a horse moment? "Oh, he doesn't have to do this."

I doubt she would score me too highly. I'd probably get SERIOUSLY dinged in general summary remarks on that lesson, too. :lol:

passagedreamer
Aug. 19, 2008, 07:03 PM
Forte : Mythilus already competed in Grand Prix in Europe BEFORE one of Courtney's sponsors bought him. You can easily look up the scores. And Idocus was trained and shown Grand Prix with Lendon and sold to Holland and competed MANY years at Grand Prix. That is not to say that CK does not sit beautiful on a horse. I do think she has one of the BEST seats on a horse.

But I do think that CK rides Mythilus WAY too short in the neck and that gives MANY points away. They look amazing on the short sides, when she has his neck up and out.
So for Elegante E : "soft on the curb " - think that IF she took the curb more his chin would touch his girth.

Mike Matson
Aug. 19, 2008, 07:16 PM
She admits that Salinero did not halt, says she waited for him to do so and realized he had not halted, but knew that she had already won and thought, "Oh, he doesn't have to do this."


A fine example for the rest of us. I'll stick with Dr. Klimke for my role model.

And Steffan Peters. :)

Kenike
Aug. 19, 2008, 07:22 PM
Wait, Isabelle had ANOTHER huge mistake, and she still medaled silver? I missed the ride, so I need to go find the video, but that doesn't seem right....

grayarabpony
Aug. 19, 2008, 07:24 PM
Wait, Isabelle had ANOTHER huge mistake, and she still medaled silver? I missed the ride, so I need to go find the video, but that doesn't seem right....

It wasn't right. Isabelle and Satchmo did not have a good test.

Anne FS
Aug. 19, 2008, 07:27 PM
Did I see that right? Did Anky win by .03? Because whats-her-name said "a landslide victory for Anky van...."

Anne FS
Aug. 19, 2008, 07:29 PM
IShe admits that Salinero did not halt,... but knew that she had already won and thought, "Oh, he doesn't have to do this."


Well, she was right; she knew what the judges would do. He probably could've laid down in the ring and had a good roll and she still would've gotten the gold.

lindasp62
Aug. 19, 2008, 07:31 PM
Isn't there supposed to be a halt AND salute? :eek: Well, in any event, she had a good ride up to that point, and her horse, Salinero, is amazing. What a front end on him! The power in those shoulders..they are huge and what a long, strong neck.

passagedreamer
Aug. 19, 2008, 07:32 PM
Anne FS : you sound like a jealous 12 teenager

Kenike
Aug. 19, 2008, 07:35 PM
That was a fantastic test for Anky & Salinero. Good for them! With the exception of the halt, of course.

I just went and found the youtube video of Isabelle's ride. Oh my!! That shouldn't have been rewarded! :no: :mad: Is it just me, or did Satchmo also look very uneven behind, with the.....crap, I can't remember now which leg I was looking at, but one was stepping quite short.

I know, it's just my opinion. Don't shoot me.

Anne FS
Aug. 19, 2008, 07:43 PM
Anne FS : you sound like a jealous 12 teenager

LOL! Oh, you couldn't be more wrong, you silly thing! They are beautiful performers; however, in such a subjective sport it's no secret that a mistake they make is simply not marked as harshly as the identical mistake by another rider. Haven't you been reading any of this?

passagedreamer
Aug. 19, 2008, 08:04 PM
welcome to the world of Dressage !!! and I have been reading ( sad but true )!!! I could only WISH to be as good as Anky or Isabelle and hope the day comes when I am forgiven for one small mistake. The ride deserved all of it's points and IF they wouldn't have had that blimp .... she would have been GOLD ! Go Isabelle !!!

Songsmom
Aug. 19, 2008, 08:08 PM
That was a fantastic test for Anky & Salinero. Good for them! With the exception of the halt, of course.

I just went and found the youtube video of Isabelle's ride. Oh my!! That shouldn't have been rewarded! :no: :mad: Is it just me, or did Satchmo also look very uneven behind, with the.....crap, I can't remember now which leg I was looking at, but one was stepping quite short.

I know, it's just my opinion. Don't shoot me.

I saw that too! Was looking at the walk and comparing overtrack from left with right hind - he wasn't even tracking with the right hind!

Bats79
Aug. 19, 2008, 08:38 PM
I could only WISH to be as good as Anky or Isabelle and hope the day comes when I am forgiven for one small mistake. The ride deserved all of it's points and IF they wouldn't have had that blimp .... she would have been GOLD ! Go Isabelle !!!


Ummm. That wasn't a small mistake, it was, as you have said, a blimp but of Hindenburg proportions, that was reflected in indications of tension throughout the test. Which should have been more recognisable in the marks.

grayarabpony
Aug. 19, 2008, 08:39 PM
Well, she was right; she knew what the judges would do. He probably could've laid down in the ring and had a good roll and she still would've gotten the gold.

I told my husband Salinero could have had a bucking fit and Anky still would have won. That would have been more entertaining than her freestyle.

Isabella Worth didn't have a good test at all. She was scored much too high IMO. I think Satchmo is an incredible horse but they did not have a good day and the test should have been scored accordingly.

Courtney King-Dye put in a lovely test on the conservative side.

I could not see Steffen Peters' test. Oxygen thought that was a good time to put in a commercial. :mad:

Jasper'sMom
Aug. 19, 2008, 09:13 PM
Marks ae posted now:

http://www.fei.org/olympics/results/2008Results/Documents/Dressage-Judges%20marks%20after%20GPF-19Aug08.pdf

Eileen

So I just pulled this up and I see that the last movement of the test, before what I assume are the collectives, is #16, which I assume is the halt, right? Anky gets 5.0, 7.0, 6.0, 6.0 and 7.0.

Is that right? If so, then DAG, I wish the judges would give me scores like that for, err, lightning fast halts. I'm really good at those, especially on my OTTB. :lol::lol::lol:

Anne FS
Aug. 19, 2008, 09:14 PM
Courtney King-Dye put in a lovely test on the conservative side.


I thought they were beautiful! I hadn't seen that horse before. Just gorgeous.

DMK
Aug. 19, 2008, 09:20 PM
Anne FS : you sound like a jealous 12 teenager


Yes, a "12 teenager" is EXACTLY what comes to mind when I think of Anne FS. Or it will be as soon as I figure out precisely what a "12 teenager" is. But I'm sure she is one. She seems the type, you know... :lol:


I come from the hunter world, where minor disobediences generally results in a horse being totally knocked out of contention no matter how brilliant they may have negotiated the fences. I am fully aware that I live in the other extreme, and trust me, sometimes it seems harsh. But dressage seems to completely embraced the other extreme. From the outside looking in, it appears if your horse is extravagant and brilliant in his movements, running backwards in the middle of a movement is just not a deal breaker anymore. Can't say I'm impressed with that aspect of the sport.

Anne FS
Aug. 19, 2008, 09:27 PM
Yes, a "12 teenager" is EXACTLY what comes to mind when I think of Anne FS. Or it will be as soon as I figure out precisely what a "12 teenager" is.

ROTFL!! I was wondering if anyone else caught that. I should've known you would!

In her defense, I'm sure she didn't mean to write "a 12yo teenager" which would be an instant COH classic, but instead probably meant that I'm as annoying as 12 teenagers, which I sadly cannot deny.

AM
Aug. 19, 2008, 09:31 PM
Jasper's Mom, movement 16 is the entrance and halt as well as the halt at the end. I pulled up the freestyle score sheet and compared the movements. I didn't see the entrance so she may have earned some points there. She does seem to be able to actually halt at the beginning of the test.

Jasper'sMom
Aug. 19, 2008, 09:48 PM
Jasper's Mom, movement 16 is the entrance and halt as well as the halt at the end. I pulled up the freestyle score sheet and compared the movements. I didn't see the entrance so she may have earned some points there. She does seem to be able to actually halt at the beginning of the test.

OK, that makes a little more sense, I guess. Odd that the two movements are combined, though.

BLBGP
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:09 PM
OK, so when Satchmo did his thing the first night, they called it a "spook". This time, a spook can't be the answer....It looks like he's ouchy in those moments and trying to run from pain. But then he continues on perfectly. Dressage folks, do you know what it is?

dressagetraks
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:12 PM
Just watched it again. Good ride, although I liked Bonfire's in 1996 more. But definitely no final halt, no salute, which by the above-cited FEI rule should mean elimination. You know, as a sign of respect, she could at least salute the judges at the end before waving to the crowd, even if she did already know she had won and deliberately decide that her horse didn't really need to halt. Not only should she salute, it is REQUIRED.

The rider on the first day on the Andalusian (I think, or Lusitano, something of that ilk), where the horse totally freaked and went into rearing fits, did manage to give a very nice salute to the judge as he retired, in spite of being on the most freaked-out and ready-to-explode horse I've seen so far at the Games.

I know Anky doesn't care what I think, but for my own personal opinion, which again with $4 will buy you a gallon of gas, I will disqualify Anky under the FEI rule above that clearly states competitors not halting and saluting judges will be eliminated. That's not based on my opinion of riders, training styles, whether she is/is not the spawn of Satan, or anything else subjective, but based on the FEI rules governing her event, which as everybody pointed out with Phillip Dutton, every competitor should know.

Gold to Isabell, not that Satchmo deserved it today, but Isabell deserves an award for nerves of steel.
Silver to Heike. Beautiful horse I hadn't seen before, good rider who also seems like a nice person. Very neat to see her reactions afterwards.
Bronze to Steffen. Whoo-hoo, Steffen!

So there. Not that Anky will care. :p

Glimmerglass
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:27 PM
I'll say that I personally cannot stand to ride dressage but I can certainly admire, appreciate, and enjoy watching the freestyle :)

Guardian (UK) 8-20-08 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/feedarticle/7737886)


Olympic horses aren't just great athletes. They got rhythm. And what's more, they got music.

Some even say they can dance.

Swedish rider Jan Brink, who rode his longtime stallion Briar to 10th place through a set of sultry Latin American and Spanish tracks, said the secret was to match the music to the horse.

"He's a little bit of a Latino guy you know," said Brink, noting his mount's need for a bit of Brazilian samba from time to time. "It's fitting to his way of moving, he's very powerful in his moving and has a lot of knee action."

For such a very little country I will say that Denmark kicks a lot of countries butts in this one area. My late maternal grandparents both were born and raised in Denmark and my sister lives in Copenhagen now so I have to take my hat off the squad they sent. Tillykke!

ps - I don't think that Steve Miller (whom I've met) would've thought a horse would dance to his song Abracadabra :D

akrogirl
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:31 PM
I am so mad at Oxygen. I really wanted to record Steffan's wonderful ride and what do they do? - cut him off a few seconds in so they could go to commercial!$!$! What disrespect for Steffan's great effort.

lark berry
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:39 PM
A few of the posters on this thread have trained and ridden GP. I don't think so many have competed internationally.
Those of you who focus on Anky's halts.....it has been stated over and over again that the marks reflect the quality. They are lousy marks. The rest of the test ALSO reflects the quality.

As many of you don't seem to have read what has been consistently reiterated on this board and in myriad other places, I suggest that you look at the individual marks from each judge for each ride. Do it while you replay the videos...that might help

Satchmo had two real live "_ _ _ _ you" moments. It happens. Dressage is hard. International competition is hard. Maintaining the trust in a horse at this level is really hard. Horses are horses and while they mostly do what we ask, sometimes they JUST SAY NO.

Yes, it is political. You figure out a way to make it objective. Good luck with that.

Judge's forums try to address many of these issues, but, people are still people, with all the inherent strengths and weaknesses. Nationalism will often show up in the panel, no matter what rules are put forth.

I congratulate the winners. I congratulate the runners-up. They got there. They tried their best and if they fell short, it was in attempting to touch the stars.

monday
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:44 PM
I am so mad at Oxygen. I really wanted to record Steffan's wonderful ride and what do they do? - cut him off a few seconds in so they could go to commercial!$!$! What disrespect for Steffan's great effort.

Its worth it to go watch the online video just for his ride alone. Its fun, has good music, and even caused my non-horsey boyfriend to sit up and ask if that horse was doing the safety dance.

akrogirl
Aug. 19, 2008, 10:47 PM
Its worth it to go watch the online video just for his ride alone. Its fun, has good music, and even caused my non-horsey boyfriend to sit up and ask if that horse was doing the safety dance.

Agreed - I watched it live this morning and loved it, which is why I wanted to get a recording :-(

TraksRuleDutchDrool
Aug. 19, 2008, 11:36 PM
A few of the posters on this thread have trained and ridden GP. I don't think so many have competed internationally.
Those of you who focus on Anky's halts.....it has been stated over and over again that the marks reflect the quality. They are lousy marks. The rest of the test ALSO reflects the quality.

As many of you don't seem to have read what has been consistently reiterated on this board and in myriad other places, I suggest that you look at the individual marks from each judge for each ride. Do it while you replay the videos...that might help

Satchmo had two real live "_ _ _ _ you" moments. It happens. Dressage is hard. International competition is hard. Maintaining the trust in a horse at this level is really hard. Horses are horses and while they mostly do what we ask, sometimes they JUST SAY NO.

Yes, it is political. You figure out a way to make it objective. Good luck with that.

Judge's forums try to address many of these issues, but, people are still people, with all the inherent strengths and weaknesses. Nationalism will often show up in the panel, no matter what rules are put forth.

I congratulate the winners. I congratulate the runners-up. They got there. They tried their best and if they fell short, it was in attempting to touch the stars.

You're a very forgiving person and I can appreciate your realism. However this in no way addresses not following the rules we all need to follow..all of us competing, from training 1 to International Grand Prix Freestyle. I think DressageTraks (and a couple others) says it best no halt and salute = elimination, there is nothing to be subjective, objective, or political about. How is that not black and white?

Schiffon
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:20 AM
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;3456957]My thought in the walk shortly after the piaffe backwards blow, was that Satchmo looked quite short on his right hind. Certainly could have whacked or tweaked himself during his outburst, but you gotta wonder whether something may be cooking, too. The veterinary diagnostics available aren't equal to humans--and even with humans it is sometimes hard to figure out when something is NQR, such as nerve pain.
QUOTE]

I agree he was short in the right hind in the walk.

During the piaffe pirouette I think the blowup started with Satchmo stepping on his left hind with the right, which is the same one that was stepped on and kicked out with in the GP. Wonder if perhaps this piaffe problem started with doing the pirouettes.

I agree with the placings, if not the exact scoring.
If you compete in a judged sport, you are acknowledging that it is subjective and as many times as you get ripped off, there will be equally as many times where you get higher scores than you deserve.

I couldn't believe how the NBC commentators were going on and on today about how unfair it was that Nastia Luikin got the silver medal on bars when she and the Chinese girl tied and based on the pre-written tie-breaking criteria, she lost out. Sure, its too bad that it has to come down to 0.1 point from one judge, but thems the rules! I thought it was interesting how gymnastics has implemented a policy that no judges are allowed from any country with a competitor in the individual events. How would we like a dressage final with no judges from Germany, the Netherlands, or the US? Despite the possibilities of nationalism, like claimed here today with the German judge, I think the overall quality of the judging would go down if the entire panel was from countries with a lower overall standard of dressage. The scores would be even more over the place and perhaps more subject to the glow of BNRs.

Lexi
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:33 AM
From the USDF Directory-

"USEF & FEI Rules for FEI-Level Freestyles

At the beginning and end, a halt with a salute is compulsory. Note: There is no recommendation or requirement that the competitor must face C for the halt and salute. A rider who does not halt for the salute is eliminated"


(Italics mine)

Well that's interesting.
a reference to a USDF publication for an FEI rule is not only not authoritative, it's downright foolish. Can you provide a reference to an actual FEI rule (as opposed to what USDF or USEF says is an FEI rule, which is often incorrect) that states that failure to halt/salute incurs elimination?

my FEI rule book says the following:


Article 430 EXECUTION OF THE TESTS
16. Details to the Freestyle Test
A rider must enter the arena within 20 seconds of the music starting.
Exceeding 20 seconds will entail elimination. The music must cease at the final salute.
At the beginning and end of a Freestyle Test a halt for the salute is
compulsory. The test time will start after the rider moves forward after the
halt.so, when a rule states that X is compulsory, and failure to do X incurs elimination, and then next mentions that Y is compulsory, but does not say that failure to do Y incurs elimination, what that means is that BOTH are compulsory, but only X incurs elimination, and Y does not. Regardless of what USDF (LOL) says.

Sabine
Aug. 20, 2008, 12:54 AM
[Quote=I agree he was short in the right hind in the walk.

During the piaffe pirouette I think the blowup started with Satchmo stepping on his left hind with the right, which is the same one that was stepped on and kicked out with in the GP. Wonder if perhaps this piaffe problem started with doing the pirouettes.

[/QUOTE]

I do also agree with you and I believe it's probably a cyatic (sp?) nerve issue- which could have been caused by some transportation problem or anything involving the sacrum...I am sure they can recognize it and fix it with body work= but of course the timing couldn't have been worse...which leads me to ask: do the teams bring their bodyworkers to the games?

Mardi
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:07 AM
Interesting quote on COTH coverage from Anky herself, in light of the above rule cited about halt being required. She admits that Salinero did not halt, says she waited for him to do so and realized he had not halted, but knew that she had already won and thought, "Oh, he doesn't have to do this."

Um, actually, technically, judging from the above RULE, yes, he does, Anky.

See what I mean ?

I'm going to change what I wrote before.

For the #1 rider in the world not to be able to accomplish a halt and a salute to THE JUDGES at the end of her test in the Olympic games is not sloppy riding.

Its arrogance.

And I still don't care who you are, Anky.

Mardi
Aug. 20, 2008, 02:29 AM
And furthermore, to admit and say outloud that you knew that you had already won, (and hence no halt/salute required), although the score and results were not yet official, could not be more ungracious, nor more wrought with self-importance.

Unbelievable......

Roan
Aug. 20, 2008, 06:47 AM
OFF WITH 'ER 'ED!

Stubborn Mare
Aug. 20, 2008, 07:27 AM
For informational purposes, I would estimate that at least 30% of the riders did not perform a traditional halt/salute at the end of their test. Should we elimiate them all? Also, the problem Satchmo had in the piaffe is an example of his old tendency to anticipate and become anxious/resistant - I doubt its likely to be a sudden injury problem.

For those of you who aren't dressage riders/trainers, keep in mind that in the freestyle there's opportunity to try again if you fail a movement on the first attempt. Also try to remember that this discipline isn't about perfection - it's about the impossible quest for perfection and mistakes are allowed, they are marked and then the next movement is marked separately and without bias.

I think we all need to move beyond this obsession with the top placings in dressage - dressage horses are such varied animals, and at this high level there are so very many aspects to consider, so really any top ten placing should be considered a great victory. There is not too much separating a 70% from a 75% for example - only an average of .5 per movement. So really, why not be celebrating the success of all those who performed to their best?? It's a shame that we become so concerned with the top few scores we don't even spend time enjoying some of the stellar work that was on display here.

slc2
Aug. 20, 2008, 07:32 AM
Why not do that? Because that would require some sportsmanship.

DMK
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:26 AM
Satchmo had two real live "_ _ _ _ you" moments. It happens. Dressage is hard. International competition is hard. Maintaining the trust in a horse at this level is really hard. Horses are horses and while they mostly do what we ask, sometimes they JUST SAY NO.

Cornet Obelensky had two real live "_ _ _ _ you" moments. It happens. Grand Prix show jumping in a Nations Cup is hard. International competition is hard. Maintaining the trust in a horse at this level is really hard. Horses are horses and while they mostly do what we ask, sometimes they JUST SAY NO.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more. And while I respect that sj is the only one out there with no subjective elements, it should be noted that Germany's Marco Kutscher isn't even advancing to the individual finals, and Ludger Beerbaum, whose horse had ONE real live "_ _ _ _ you" moment is ranked dead last going into the individual competition. If he has another you can bet he won't be even a threat to the medals in the individual competition, even with a clean slate.

There has to be a better way. Many other international disciplines are hard, dressage doesn't have the market cornered onthat, and yet other disciplines don't reward those behaviors with medals.

dressagetraks
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:41 AM
I do understand how scoring works and admire all the hard work of the riders and the beautiful moments of the horses.

But flat-out and STATED arrogance, I don't admire.

I had posted before reading the Anky quote that she deserved the win today. I dislike rollkur, but I have never been an Anky is the devil person and automatically against her, although I had thought (and still do) that she did not quite seem herself at this competition, like something else was bugging her.

But after reading the quote where she admits that because she knew she had already won, she decided the last halt didn't matter, and after rewatching in light of that statement to confirm that she didn't even attempt to salute the judges, I have lost all respect for her, not as a rider, but as a person. It wasn't lost through my opinion of training methods, judge trickery, national bias, score, etc. It was lost through her own words. And ANY other rider who made a statement like that, regardless of training methods, country, record, etc., would similarly lose all respect in my eyes. I would not take lessons with them for free, no matter how good or successful they had been.

Not that she will care. But I do.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:47 AM
dressagetraks-
I think that you are misinterpreting her. If you have ever met her, you would know that she is not at all arrogant. She is very, very self critical and a perfectionist.

It was clear to me that she was so excited about her unexpected come from behind win (believe it or not, she has always felt somewhat the underdog to Isabel), and she felt so much relief, that she forgot herself momentarily, and then decided that she wasn't going to beat herself up about it.

Janet
Aug. 20, 2008, 09:48 AM
And while I respect that sj is the only one out there with no subjective elements, it should be noted that Germany's Marco Kutscher isn't even advancing to the individual finals, and Ludger Beerbaum, whose horse had ONE real live "_ _ _ _ you" moment is ranked dead last going into the individual competition. If he has another you can bet he won't be even a threat to the medals in the individual competition, even with a clean slate.

There has to be a better way. Many other international disciplines are hard, dressage doesn't have the market cornered onthat, and yet other disciplines don't reward those behaviors with medals.
If you want to change THAT, you would have to change the whole way dressage is scored, not the way it is judged.

DMK
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:02 AM
I realize that, that's pretty much my point. But if you had some hard and fast rules around major disobediences, that might also help judging.

Might. Might not.

But like I said, as a horse person familiar with another international level sport, but on the outside looking in to dressage, watching Satchmo run backwards twice and still barely lose the gold was, well, not making me feel the love for the sport as it is practiced at the highest levels.

But maybe that's just me. Or maybe it isn't just me, but maybe most the people happily ensconced in the dressage world are happy with that aspect of the current system, in which case that is just fine. And I really mean that. I know that every discipline has its issues, and sometimes you need to pick and choose your battles about where you need to make change. But coming from another discipline, there's an observation. That and $4 gets you a gallon of gas.

VACavalier
Aug. 20, 2008, 10:02 AM
a reference to a USDF publication for an FEI rule is not only not authoritative, it's downright foolish. Can you provide a reference to an actual FEI rule (as opposed to what USDF or USEF says is an FEI rule, which is often incorrect) that states that failure to halt/salute incurs elimination?

my FEI rule book says the following:

so, when a rule states that X is compulsory, and failure to do X incurs elimination, and then next mentions that Y is compulsory, but does not say that failure to do Y incurs elimination, what that means is that BOTH are compulsory, but only X incurs elimination, and Y does not. Regardless of what USDF (LOL) says.



You're right. I do realize that it was in a USDF book, and I couldn't find anything other than "compulsory" in FEI rules....but I still think its something interesting to point out.