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MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:32 PM
Maybe it's just me being a fussy old woman, but I'm very patriotic.

In all the pictures I've seen, Mclain is the only one without his hand over his heart during the National Anthem.

I didn't get to see the actual ceremony - did anyone notice?

Anyone close enough to him to give him a little lesson on proper behavior during the National Anthem?

Equibrit
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:35 PM
That signifies what exactly?

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:36 PM
He's a communist.
Heard he kicks small puppies too, esp the cute ones.

ridgeback
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:37 PM
Maybe it's just me being a fussy old woman, but I'm very patriotic.

In all the pictures I've seen, Mclain is the only one without his hand over his heart during the National Anthem.

I didn't get to see the actual ceremony - did anyone notice?

Anyone close enough to him to give him a little lesson on proper behavior during the National Anthem?


You put your hand over your heart for the pledge of allegiance not the national anthem at least when I was growing up that was the case. I think politics has changed that because you are unpatriotic and a terrorist if you don't...LOL

Coreene
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:37 PM
Maybe it's just me being a fussy old woman, but I'm very patriotic.

In all the pictures I've seen, Mclain is the only one without his hand over his heart during the National Anthem.

I didn't get to see the actual ceremony - did anyone notice?

Anyone close enough to him to give him a little lesson on proper behavior during the National Anthem?Have watched many medal ceremonies. No other country besides the US puts their hand on their heart. And a lot of the US doesn't either. Doesn't make a person any less patriotic.

Simple Charm
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:38 PM
He's a communist.
Heard he kicks small puppies too, esp the cute ones.

ROFL!!!!! That's a good one!:lol:

Basically all it means is that he is not smart enough to know that practically everyone in America puts their hand over their heart anytime the national anthem is played.

Its a "patriotic" thing to do.

LexInVA
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:39 PM
Not everyone does the heart over hand thing anymore. It's fallen out of fashion I guess, though I believe there is actually a Federal law on the books that makes it mandatory. Don't know if it's ever been enforced though.

staceymc
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:39 PM
You put your hand over your heart for the pledge of allegiance not the national anthem.

THANK YOU! It always amazes me that not only do people not know this, but they get in such a huff when people actually do the correct thing!

caffeinated
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:39 PM
I don't put my hand over my heart for the anthem either.

Honestly, this strikes me as kind of a non-issue... I was certainly never taught to do that (even with veterans in the family who took me to my first baseball games).

And searching for the "real" ettiquette of the anthem shows varied results. There's no hard and fast rule. Everything from outright saluting, to singing along, to keeping quiet, to hand over heart, to hands clasped in front or behind, seems to be "correct" according to different sources.

seeuatx
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:40 PM
You know what worries me more than someone without their hand over their heart during the National Anthem? The person with their hand over their heart but the blank stare in their eyes, like they are thinking of what to cook for dinner or what to wear to work tomorrow.

It's like that crap with the flag pin. My pin is bigger than yours, so I'm the better American.... yeah right.

LexInVA
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:40 PM
Ah. Here is the law...


United States Code, 36 USC Sec. 301, states that during the playing of "The Star Spangled Banner" (United States National Anthem) when the flag is displayed, everyone except those in uniform should stand at attention while facing the flag with their right hand over their heart. Those in attendance who are not in uniform should remove any head wear with their right hand and hold it at their left shoulder, with their right hand held over their heart. Individuals in uniform should show the military salute during the first note of the anthem and stay in this position until the last note. If the flag is not displayed, people in attendance should face the music and respond as if the flag were present.

luv2jump
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:41 PM
I thought the hand over the heart was for the Pledge of Allegence like in school.but what the hell do I know?
Luv2Jump
I am a NY'er like McClain - maybe we were not trained right??
Luv2Jump

ridgeback
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:41 PM
I don't think it's a law I've never seen anyone arrested for not doing it.. When I was a child that was not the case...:lol: WHO FRIGGEN CARES WE WOULDN'T HAVE THE GOLD IF IT WASN'T FOR MCLAIN...
Only an American would complain about something like this...BIG SIGH:(

loshad
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:41 PM
IIRC, the only hard and fast rule anymore is for men to remove their hats.

Highflyer
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:42 PM
I heard he once shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

Oh, wait.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:42 PM
It's like that crap with the flag pin. My pin is bigger than yours, so I'm the better American.... yeah right.

I've got a 6'x 9' flag pin, beat that. It's got wheels and a hitch on it. Bought an F350 just to haul it around.

Equibrit
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:43 PM
You mean - there's a LAW that says you have to?

Land of the free eh?

Flypony
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:43 PM
So you win the gold. However this tremendous achievment has been marred for you because someone did not put their hand on thier heart for the ceremonies. Cut the guy some slack have you ever forgot something in the moment? Nice win, don't sweat the small stuff.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:44 PM
Ah. Here is the law...


United States Code, 36 USC Sec. 301, states that during the playing of "The Star Spangled Banner" (United States National Anthem) when the flag is displayed, everyone except those in uniform should stand at attention while facing the flag with their right hand over their heart. Those in attendance who are not in uniform should remove any head wear with their right hand and hold it at their left shoulder, with their right hand held over their heart. Individuals in uniform should show the military salute during the first note of the anthem and stay in this position until the last note. If the flag is not displayed, people in attendance should face the music and respond as if the flag were present.

Damn straight brother!! They should deport his commie loving ass to someplace like China..... errr, wait a a minute.

Anselcat
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:45 PM
Ah. Here is the law...

But US law does not extend extra-territorially. When in Hong Kong, this law does not apply!

(and yes I know the real issue being discussed is not strictly legal, but still something to think about)

Tiramit
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:45 PM
Isn't it awful when our gold medalists refuse to show how much they care about their country after winning team competitions? Sure, anyone could go out and jump all those clears for the country; it takes a true American to remember to hold his hand up! I agree, let's kick him out - I think the Germans would take him. :winkgrin:

LexInVA
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:46 PM
I don't think it's a law I've never seen anyone arrested for not doing it.. When I was a child that was not the case...:lol:

I don't think anyone has ever bothered to enforce it, if they even know it exists. Most cops know about as much as the average person off the street about the laws they enforce and there are tons of laws and codes that nobody has probably ever enforced that are only on the books for political reasons or they simply sounded practical on paper many years ago but wouldn't make any sense in today's world.

Equibrit
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:46 PM
The law says that he should have had his hat in his hand anyway. His hat was probably made in China too?

LexInVA
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:47 PM
Isn't it awful when our gold medalists refuse to show how much they care about their country after winning team competitions? Sure, anyone could go out and jump all those clears for the country; it takes a true American to remember to hold his hand up! I agree, let's kick him out - I think the Germans would take him. :winkgrin:

The Germans have enough good riders. Let the French have him. :lol:

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:47 PM
What I personally find more offensive is the dude has a good honest to God surname as a first name!
That's an affront to humanity.
I suppose it's really his parents fault. I knew there was something I didn't like about his Dad.

Portia
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:47 PM
None of the horses had their hooves over their hearts either! And no wonder we can't trust them to be patriots -- some of them were born in Germany, you know.

europa
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:48 PM
I am sure there are many that have things to say that Mclain has done that are FAR more offensive then hand on heart.

Just visit Horseshowspy

fordtraktor
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:48 PM
The statute says "should," not "have to." In other words, it is trying to set the standard, but it is not illegal to do other things.

When I go to baseball games, etc., hard-over-hearters like me are in the minority (less than 10%). Beezie had to elbow Will to remind him, and I don't think Laura even tried to remind McLain. This is a nonissue to me -- these people are all patriotic enough for me, as they have expended significant resources and time to represent our country in the international arena, and have done so very well.

FalseImpression
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:48 PM
is definitely an American tradition. Never seen it in Canada or in France.
What REALLY irks me is boys and men having to be reminded to take off their hats! Grrr! No matter which anthem is played... you bare your head!

ridgeback
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:48 PM
I'd burn the flag before I'm forced to do anything I don't want to do during the pledge of alligence or the national anthem..JMO

SuperSTB
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:49 PM
Well I heard that in the wee hours in the morning he goes wheelchair tipping :D

Some people get confused because at many sporting events they play the national anthem and pepole instinctively remove hat and place hand over heart... don't have to but they do.

AdAblurr02
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:50 PM
Ah. Here is the law...


United States Code, 36 USC Sec. 301, states that during the playing of "The Star Spangled Banner" (United States National Anthem) when the flag is displayed, everyone except those in uniform should stand at attention while facing the flag with their right hand over their heart. Those in attendance who are not in uniform should remove any head wear with their right hand and hold it at their left shoulder, with their right hand held over their heart. Individuals in uniform should show the military salute during the first note of the anthem and stay in this position until the last note. If the flag is not displayed, people in attendance should face the music and respond as if the flag were present.

Thank you.
If the band is good I sometimes tear up a bit, too. Especially if the breeze lifts the Flag, just a bit, to unfurl it.

MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:51 PM
Sheesh. So glad to see respect of flag, anthem and country is such a non issue for so many. :(

rileyt
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:55 PM
He's a communist.
Heard he kicks small puppies too, esp the cute ones.

Yup. And I heard he had his picture taken doing the "slanty eyes" thing a la the Spanish Basketball thing while he was at a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan.

Definitely a communist. And a terrorist. And worst of all, a... REPUBLICAN! :D

Stubborn Mare
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:56 PM
Wow. And I thought we Brits were too nationalistic sometimes. Um, aren't both our countries currently occupying others to bring them freedom and democracy? Something here doesn't add up (policing athlete's manners druing a song? Surely that is more appropriate in, um, other headline grabbing countries) :lol::lol:

Imagine... you've just won Olympic gold for your country, riding with a degree of style and grace that few achieve these days. You've managed to maintain a bit of professionalism despite being thrust in the spotlight at a very young age (first for your own outstanding talent and sadly later for more dubious reasons). You must be well aware of the fact that no matter what you do for the rest of your career, your behaviour will always be put under a microscope and you will be judged by a higher standard than most. Despite all of this you keep your cool in a very high pressure jump off situation, support your teammates, etc. And yet your fellow countrymen fault you for not making the right gesture during the national anthem? wow. Come on, give the man a break already.

I'm not saying we should just forgive and forget, but I was a teenager when Mclain first came on the scene, and I can remember good things as well as the bad. Remember the old adage, if you can't say something kind....??

Oh, and pssst.... the Olympics isn't about PATRIOTISM anyway, it's about world peace and international cooperation remember???? ;)

ridgeback
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:56 PM
Sheesh. So glad to see respect of flag, anthem and country is such a non issue for so many. :(

It has nothing to do with respect for the country or the love for the country... Just a shame that he was the reason we won the gold medal and we have to pick on him for not putting his hand over his heart...sheesh.. There is alot more you can say about Mclain's respect for things..

rileyt
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:57 PM
Sheesh. So glad to see respect of flag, anthem and country is such a non issue for so many. :(


Respect for your country is nothing to laugh about. Equating that with whether or not someone puts his hand on his heart for the anthem is.

vxf111
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:59 PM
That's missing the point. I think what people are saying is that there's some cultural variety as to what is considered respectful of the flag. Some folks say hand on the heart. Others say take off your hat. Other say stand quietly in respect. There seems to be some divergence. He stood quietly in respect. There's a large contingent here that feels that is an accetable form of repecting the flag.

When I go to the baeball game, I see more people standing with their hands at their sides than over their heart. Not everyone takes off their hat. There's some real divergence in terms of what is considered appropriate. I never learned hand over heart during the anthem, only the pledge of allegience-- and I had to study the rules because I'm Canadian and was naturalized. Things might have changed since then, but I don't recall that rule being outlined as manditory.

Not to mention, he might have been SLIGHTLY overwhelmed with everything that was going on. Just a tiny little bit. ;)

FalseImpression
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:00 PM
I guess the only way he can redeem himself is by winning the individual gold medal and placing his hand over his heart then!!! Hope Eric does not give him the opportunity though!!

LexInVA
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:00 PM
I'm not much of a flag waver after 9/11. Not because of the events themselves but just the stuff that came after it in this country. Not the WOT either but that's another thread for another Off Topic Day. I think that they went a little too far when they tried to put Patriotism in a box and sell it gift wrapped with political tissue paper. Anyway, I think McLain's lack of proper decorum might be taken as a bit of a slap in the face by some people and I think he should have done it just for the sake of being proper on the world's stage but I won't lose sleep over it.

bambam
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:00 PM
MGP- while I respect your opinion that it is proper to put your hand over your heart, I think your equation of where someone puts their hand during an anthem as being determinative of whether they are patritotic or respect their country is misplaced, as is your dismissal of people who disagree with you as being disrespectful :no:
Whether my hand is on my heart or at my side is no measure of my patriotism or respect for my country. I measure that by more substantive means and not whether someone goes through the motions during an anthem

Tiramit
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:01 PM
Imagine... you've just won Olympic gold for your country, riding with a degree of style and grace that few achieve these days. You've managed to maintain a bit of professionalism despite being thrust in the spotlight at a very young age (first for your own outstanding talent and sadly later for more dubious reasons). You must be well aware of the fact that no matter what you do for the rest of your career, your behaviour will always be put under a microscope and you will be judged by a higher standard than most. Despite all of this you keep your cool in a very high pressure jump off situation, support your teammates, etc. And yet your fellow countrymen fault you for not making the right gesture during the national anthem? wow. Come on, give the man a break already.


Well said.

caffeinated
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:01 PM
Not to mention, he might have been SLIGHTLY overwhelmed with everything that was going on. Just a tiny little bit. ;)

You mean he's human? Shocking!

vxf111
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:03 PM
You mean he's human? Shocking!

He is. But Sapphire, she's a MACHINE. :)

Portia
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:04 PM
Sheesh. So glad to see respect of flag, anthem and country is such a non issue for so many. :(
It's not that it's a non-issue. It's that the "rules" aren't clear and you can't blame someone who follows a different tradition.

It's the broad assumptions behind a simple gesture that people object to. That is, he didn't have his hand on his heart, therefore he must not care about his country -- even though he just rode for a gold medal for it.

What was his expression on his face? Did he look happy and proud? Did he look like he respected his teammates and his horse, and the people who helped him get there?

Or did he give a one-finger salute or hang his head in shame? Or throw his medal on the floor like that wrestler did the other day?

So he forgot or its not part of what he was taught to do. Give the guy a break for having a lot going on in his mind and his emotions at the time.

KSevnter
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:05 PM
Respect for your country is nothing to laugh about. Equating that with whether or not someone puts his hand on his heart for the anthem is.

I agree, it is actually his right as an American not to put his hand over his heart, or remove his hat (not that I think he was expressing either, I am sure he just was caught up in the moment).

True patriotism is not about blindly following the crowd or wearing a flag pin. Generally, it takes the form of questioning your government and its actions. I hate that people think that one doesn't love his/her country for not overtly shouting with his every action.

I am not a huge McClain fan, but this non-action doesn't make him unpatriotic...if anything his being a republican does! ;)

magnolia73
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:05 PM
Let's hope Obama does not pick him for VP.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:06 PM
just keep that image handy for when he's running for president.

the guy just won a gold medal for the US. That isn't patriotic enough?

Madeline
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:06 PM
This board is amazing. We've just seen an exciting Olympic competition which we won. Many of us were able to watch live streaming video of every round, for free.

Are we appreciative? No. We bitch about riders showing no respect for the sport by not wearing hairnets. We bitch about Mclain Ward not putting his hand over his heart during the national anthem. And about him being Barney Ward's son, which he can hardly help. We gripe about the network coverage. ( You must all be too young to remember the glory days of US Olympic boxing...hour upon hour of Howard Cosell)

Thanks Mclain, et al. Thanks NBC. And you girls keep wearing your helmets in the safer mode, not the "hunter hair" mode.

Sheesh.

caffeinated
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:07 PM
Let's hope Osama does not pick him for VP.

Is that supposed to be funny? Because usually I get jokes.

Stubborn Mare
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:08 PM
Let's hope Osama does not pick him for VP.

lol, has Al Qaeda embraced democracy or is that a typo?! :lol: Either way, it's a good one.

magnolia73
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:09 PM
Is that supposed to be funny? Because usually I get jokes.

It's sarcastic.

vxf111
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:10 PM
Is that supposed to be funny? Because usually I get jokes.

I'm going to assume it's a typo, because I like to believe in the general intelligence of the human populace. ;) I therefore have to discretic evidence to the contrary :):)

Portia
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:11 PM
We gripe about the network coverage. ( You must all be too young to remember the glory days of US Olympic boxing...hour upon hour of Howard Cosell)

Oh lord, don't remind me!

RainyDayRide
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:11 PM
It's sarcastic.

maybe that was your intention, but it sure comes out as an insult to a presidential nominee, one that dovetails nicely with the some of the smears being tossed his direction.

How about keeping politics out of these threads before they're shut down for being off-topic?

vxf111
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:12 PM
It's sarcastic.

We must have different definitions of the word "sarcastic." Sarcasm is stating the opposite of an intended meaning. So a sarcastic remark in the middle of a downpour would be "Nice weather we're having."

I'm not getting a sarcastic reading of the Osama comment, but maybe I'm just missing the context or not getting it?!

KSevnter
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:12 PM
Let's hope Osama does not pick him for VP.

It was a joke, I am guessing Magnolia brought it up since it has become a common "slip of the tongue" on FOX and a few other places.

And by "slip of the tongue" I mean when they are doing a story about our presidential candidate with the similar sounding name.

3Dogs
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:13 PM
Ah, just heard an interesting interview with an author on cultural biases. Premise put forth is that we are, at times, insensitive to /unaware of cultural changes that occur over the years. One example made by the author (whose name I forget of course) is that "hand over heart" during the anthem (anywhere, anytime) is not the cultural norm for the younger generation as it was/is for we of "older" generations. Thus it is just change - not a supercharged dis. Author also mentioned the popularity of a fist pump - that for some seems an action of aggression/anger but is a shift in a symbolic norm.

I go to lots of horse shows - lot of anthems before the GPs - and I'd say only 1/2, and mostly older, crowd, do the "hand over heart".

I figure his respect for his country more than adequately expressed through his beautiful performance on a fantastic horse. Works for me!

Dispatcher
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:14 PM
I don't think the OP was meant to bash on his win. It was an observation of a generally accepted practice by a lot of traditional Americans.

By the way, did he at least give Saphire a pat? He never used to give his horses a pat as they finished their round & left the ring. That really disturbed me.

onthebit
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:14 PM
Good grief, some people will find fault with anything!!

Mclain was so overcome with emotion he looked like he was on the verge of tears, or maybe he was actually crying at points both before and during the medal ceremony. I think it was obvious that he was PROUD to represent his country in the Olympics. I was sure as heck proud to watch he and Sapphire jump around with the american flag on their saddlepad.

This board is just amazing sometimes, in both good and bad ways.

LexInVA
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:16 PM
Is that supposed to be funny? Because usually I get jokes.

That would explain why you've never laughed at any of mine. :lol:

RainyDayRide
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:19 PM
Ah, just heard an interesting interview with an author on cultural biases. Premise put forth is that we are, at times, insensitive to /unaware of cultural changes that occur over the years. One example made by the author (whose name I forget of course) is that "hand over heart" during the anthem (anywhere, anytime) is not the cultural norm for the younger generation as it was/is for we of "older" generations.

Except for the members of the older generation who learned "hand over heart for the pledge of allegiance, hands at your side and hats off for the anthem." And even older - I never, ever remember my father putting his hand over his heart for the anthem.

magnolia73
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:21 PM
Yes- my comment was meant to poke in stick at Fox News Toby Keith types. I assume that most of the gentle BB posters get that Barack Obama is a fine candidate not affiliated with AlQueada. And that there is little likelihood that McLain would take the job of VP with his fine string of horses to manage. Though he'd probably be a fine VP. Regardless of his forgetting to be all patriotic. But then - what is patriotism? I think it is actions not symbols......

caffeinated
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:21 PM
It's sarcastic.

I've just been really surprised/dumbfounded by the number of folks these days who seem to think it's humorous to compare one of our candidates for president to a terrorist. Perhaps this has made me sensitive/defensive, but I find it a sad example of the state of our political discourse these days, and it makes me cranky (eta: probably why I reacted the way I did to that).

(sorry, got too serious for a minute there)

Whistlejacket
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:24 PM
MGP- while I respect your opinion that it is proper to put your hand over your heart, I think your equation of where someone puts their hand during an anthem as being determinative of whether they are patritotic or respect their country is misplaced, as is your dismissal of people who disagree with you as being disrespectful :no:
Whether my hand is on my heart or at my side is no measure of my patriotism or respect for my country. I measure that by more substantive means and not whether someone goes through the motions during an anthem

MGP - While I respect your sense of patriotism, I gotta agree with bambam here. There are different interpretations of what is appropriate and respectful during the national anthem.

This reminds me of a cartoon that I saw recently. Two middle-aged guys are talking. One is in full military dress uniform, bedecked with medals, stars, bars, and all sort of indications of his accomplishments in the military service. The other guy, who is in a plain business suit, asks him "So where's your flag pin?"

;) WJ

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:25 PM
Let's hope Osama does not pick him for VP.

Sarcastic or not, I have no idea what this means.

And prefer not to see political references on these boards in any event. There are plenty of other places where that is appropriate -- not here.

Like others, I rejoice in the fabulous rides of the American team and offer hearty congratulations to them and all who made such great efforts.

And a special cheer for the Canadian team, especially Ian Millar, riding so well for 40+ years now, winning a first Olympic medal. Fabulous!

magnolia73
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:25 PM
Caffienated-
Sorry- I will go back and revise. I know that sometimes that crap actually does work (yuck). Just assumed this audience was above being Karl Roved.

DMK
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:26 PM
...Those in attendance who are not in uniform should remove any head wear with their right hand and hold it at their left shoulder, with their right hand held over their heart.

Well crap. Did anyone notice that Beezie and Laura left their hats on? :eek: Does this mean we have to give up the gold medal or can we just deport them to France too? :confused: And if so, can I have Cedric? :yes:

Coreene
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:28 PM
I just wanna sleep with Keith Olbermann. ;)

danceronice
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:29 PM
I was about to say, just be happy he kept his medal on, but then it's not usually gold-medal winners who throw temper tantrums.

Geez. I'm all for patriotism but it's not like he was throwing the Black Panther salute or turning his back.

seeuatx
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:29 PM
I was pretty sure I got the joke (though I thought it was also perhaps a typo). But what truly amused me was that Sen. Obama was criticized back in the fall for failing to wear a flag pin at a speech.

An Obama/ Ward ticket. Geez one won't wear flag pins and the other forgets to cover his heart. What is this world coming to ;)

fordtraktor
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:29 PM
Sheesh. So glad to see respect of flag, anthem and country is such a non issue for so many. :(

I'd guess this is directed at me, since I was the one using the term "nonissue." As many others have pointed out, putting your hand on your heart is not the equivalent of "respect for flag, anthem, and country." As is clear from the dispute here, standard practice varies. One is not "more patriotic" than the other.

I am as flag-waving as any other person on here, and the position that McLain is somehow a traitor because he did the exact same thing that 90% of Americans do (and think is right) is absurd and offensive.

KSevnter
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:31 PM
I've just been really surprised/dumbfounded by the number of folks these days who seem to think it's humorous to compare one of our candidates for president to a terrorist. Perhaps this has made me sensitive/defensive, but I find it a sad example of the state of our political discourse these days, and it makes me cranky (eta: probably why I reacted the way I did to that).

(sorry, got too serious for a minute there)

Just for clarification, Magnolia was referencing news anchors who "mistakenly" say Osama when doing a story on Obama. She personally wasn't comparing the two, but rather making reference to a supposed news organization's continued inability to get the two names straight.

Don't want to speak for her but I am guessing that she has the utmost respect for the presidential candidate, she like me thought it was common knowledge that FOX has been consistently mixing up the two names for months.

caffeinated
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:33 PM
KS, I get that now, but I've had enough run-ins with people who really mean it, and think it's funny, that my first reaction is to get annoyed.

MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:36 PM
I am as flag-waving as any other person on here, and the position that McLain is somehow a traitor because he did the exact same thing that 90% of Americans do (and think is right) is absurd and offensive.

Hurt yourself in that leap?

I find it disrespectful to not address the flag and anthem properly.

It sadly doesn't surprise me that others don't.

It did surprise me to see an American on the podium who didn't put his hand over his heart.

Doesn't mean I think he's a traitor, doesn't mean I don't admire his abilities.

KSevnter
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:38 PM
Caf, that is such a sad commentary on our country that we have all run into people who think that is truly funny. Kind of like the whole thing with his middle name too.

loshad
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:39 PM
Well crap. Did anyone notice that Beezie and Laura left their hats on? :eek: Does this mean we have to give up the gold medal or can we just deport them to France too? :confused: And if so, can I have Cedric? :yes:


Excuse me, but propah ladies stay covered, so Beezie and Laura still love 'Merca like they should. Taking their hats off would make them hoors. ;)

One can't help but wonder a) whether there is a Pocket Trainer product that covers medal ceremonies and b) what the appropriate wine would be for kvetching about the lack of respect one's Olympians display for their country during said ceremony.

magnolia73
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:40 PM
:)

How about McCain/McLain in 08!

flshgordon
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:40 PM
I've just been really surprised/dumbfounded by the number of folks these days who seem to think it's humorous to compare one of our candidates for president to a terrorist. Perhaps this has made me sensitive/defensive, but I find it a sad example of the state of our political discourse these days, and it makes me cranky (eta: probably why I reacted the way I did to that).

(sorry, got too serious for a minute there)

It's amusing how we all see things differently. Because I am WAY more shocked/offended by whatever poster said something like "I'd burn the flag before I ever do what someone else wants me to during the natl anthem" (paraphrase).

I find political candidates (on both sides) pretty much fair game since they do enough mud slinging to deserve the same in return.

caffeinated
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:40 PM
Hurt yourself in that leap?

I find it disrespectful to not address the flag and anthem properly.

It sadly doesn't surprise me that others don't.

It did surprise me to see an American on the podium who didn't put his hand over his heart.


The thing is, there are different views on what is "proper"- because a majority of people learned something differently or show their respect differently doesn't mean (IMO) that they are disrespectful. Which I think is the point that everyone is making here.

Glimmerglass
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:42 PM
So we (the US) win a gold medal in team showjumping - wonderful - which saves a shred of respect for our collective equestrian programs, but instead people first bitch about McLain do and/or not doing something, then turn on anyone who doesn't salute the flag like they're recreating the scene from Iwo Jima, then get into some exchanges over of all freaking things Obama. Folks need to get off the computer and do something else sometimes.

Bottom line: I'm very pleased with the gold medal!

From this picture I suppose removing helmets during the National Anthem is not required for all (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/olympics_blog/2008/08/us-show-jumpers.html) :D

caffeinated
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:43 PM
but glimmerglass, it's ok for the wimminfolk to keep their hair properly covered. At least, I'm pretty sure someone said that on the last page and I'm going with it.

Ghazzu
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:43 PM
Not everyone does the heart over hand thing anymore. It's fallen out of fashion I guess, though I believe there is actually a Federal law on the books that makes it mandatory. Don't know if it's ever been enforced though.


Sounds pretty far-fetched to me--if there *were* a federal law like that, I'd push to have it tossed on the basis that it is unconstitutional.

A wonderful thing about this country is that you aren't *required* to perform certain acts deemed by others to display "patriotism".

flshgordon
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:44 PM
Bottom line: I'm very pleased with the gold medal!



DITTO! :D

Ghazzu
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:47 PM
Sheesh. So glad to see respect of flag, anthem and country is such a non issue for so many. :(

Ther's a big difference between posing during the national anthem and loving one's country.

Personally, I'm offended by all the lazy ass folks who fly a flag but can't be bothered to raise it at dawn and lower it at sunset.
Too inconvenient, I guess.

Madeline
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:48 PM
Well crap. Did anyone notice that Beezie and Laura left their hats on? :eek: Does this mean we have to give up the gold medal or can we just deport them to France too? :confused: And if so, can I have Cedric? :yes:

I was always taught that the national anthem, for women, was like church. If you're wearing a hat, keep it on. Men: If you're wearing a hat, take it off.

No hands on hearts.

DMK
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:50 PM
Excuse me, but propah ladies stay covered, so Beezie and Laura still love 'Merca like they should. Taking their hats off would make them hoors. ;)

One can't help but wonder a) whether there is a Pocket Trainer product that covers medal ceremonies and b) what the appropriate wine would be for kvetching about the lack of respect one's Olympians display for their country during said ceremony.

Yes, but shouldn't they also be barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen in order to qualify? None of this pesky representin' your country on equal footing with the menfolk, right? :D

I am troubled that MGP sees fit to worry about McLain's patriotism and yet not Beezie and Laura's though... There seems to be so little concern for their etenal souls. Are there enough flag pins to cover for this? See, so much to worry about. It's overwhelming. But I'm sure if I could get a hold of some of that exceptional wine that Pocket Trainer would undoubtedly recommend for such an occasion, I'd worry less. Unless of course she recommended a French wine? :eek:

SuperSTB
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:51 PM
Personally, I'm offended by all the lazy ass folks who fly a flag but can't be bothered to raise it at dawn and lower it at sunset.
Too inconvenient, I guess.

Oh crap!
(shuffles off to take flag down for this evening...)

This thread is cracking me up BTW- must be the hot topic for the day :D

What else can we throw in the mix?

DMK
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:53 PM
I was always taught that the national anthem, for women, was like church. If you're wearing a hat, keep it on. Men: If you're wearing a hat, take it off.

No hands on hearts.

Well, sure you were taught that, I was taught that, judging by any playing of the Anthem at every sporting event in this country, over half the damn citizens were taught this... But clearly there is a law and mortal souls are in peril if we are to judge by MGP's concern, right? :lol:

DeLovely
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:54 PM
Maybe it is a generational thing. I'm in my early thirties. I'm just as patriotic as the next person, and I stand behind the good things about the U.S. and support my country---but as a free thinker, I don't like having to participate in gestures of allegiance. The hand over heart thing seems cultish to me and I don't think it is in any way representative of character whether someone does it or not.

danceronice
Aug. 18, 2008, 03:55 PM
It's amusing how we all see things differently. Because I am WAY more shocked/offended by whatever poster said something like "I'd burn the flag before I ever do what someone else wants me to during the natl anthem" (paraphrase).


I would have to agree here. I'm a lot more offended by the people who argue that the best way to demonstrate patriotism is to trash your own country or act ashamed of it (and no, it is not a recent Bush years thing; these people have been like this all along.)

fordtraktor
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:00 PM
[QUOTE=MyGiantPony;3453683]Hurt yourself in that leap?

I find it disrespectful to not address the flag and anthem properly.

It sadly doesn't surprise me that others don't.

QUOTE]

Didn't hurt me as badly as it hurt you in sentences 2 and 3 of your response. Again. Will some people never learn? Or are you just too stubborn to admit that maybe he wasn't being disrespectful? That maybe what you have learned as respectful is not what others know? That should be OBVIOUS given the difference of opinion on this board alone over whether hand-over-heart is appropriate or not.

BLBGP
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:01 PM
I find it disrespectful to not address the flag and anthem properly.

It sadly doesn't surprise me that others don't.

It did surprise me to see an American on the podium who didn't put his hand over his heart.

Doesn't mean I think he's a traitor, doesn't mean I don't admire his abilities.


I take it this is the only sport you watched and the only Olympic year you've watched? And you've never been to a baseball game? I was also raised with the "hand on heart for pledge, hands at sides with hat off for anthem" mantra. I thought he was appropriately respectful and I can't understand getting so worked up about it. He was still, eyes slightly glistening, staring at the flag. That, to me, is respect. Hell, he could have been chewing gum, laughing, and trying to talk to the riders next to him for the way you're carrying on.

gottagrey
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:02 PM
Until the US Code was posted here I had no idea there was a CODE! I have never received a copy of this code ? Has anyone received a copy of the Congressional Codes? I would think MAYBE someone who was studying for their citizenshiop would certainly know about the code. If you make the US Olympic team do they give you a handout of the CODE? I'm from a career Marine family and I don't recall anything about the "Code". but then again perhaps my father was a little over mililtary protocol after being in 3 wars.

I don't usually put my hand over my heart, and quite frankly from time to time would like to put my hands over my ears due to some people who need to add various octaves to the Anthem when they sing :lol:

Josey'sMom
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:02 PM
Did anyone else notice the caption in the picture Glimmerglass posted? Apparently, both Beezie and Laura rode Authentic. Cedric didn't jump at all. Poor Authentic must be so tired, lol. (Yes, I know it was a typo, just thought it was kinda funny and trying to lighten the mood of this thread) :)

MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:02 PM
Personally, I'm offended by all the lazy ass folks who fly a flag but can't be bothered to raise it at dawn and lower it at sunset.
Too inconvenient, I guess.

well, I'm with you on that. (we alway had a spot light on it at night if it didn't come down...)

MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:04 PM
[quote=MyGiantPony;3453683]Hurt yourself in that leap?

I find it disrespectful to not address the flag and anthem properly.

It sadly doesn't surprise me that others don't.

QUOTE]

Didn't hurt me as badly as it hurt you in sentences 2 and 3 of your response. Again. Will some people never learn? Or are you just too stubborn to admit that maybe he wasn't being disrespectful? That maybe what you have learned as respectful is not what others know? That should be OBVIOUS given the difference of opinion on this board alone over whether hand-over-heart is appropriate or not.

Riiiiight. Because the majority posting on this particular board disagree with me means I'm wrong.

If it's majority rule, I'll stick with the opinion on the Marine Mom board.

Coreene
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:06 PM
Well, since this pot is a-stirrin', lemme just add that when I say the Pledge, I say "One nation .... with liberty and justice for all" and leave out "under God," which I think has no place in the Pledge (which was of course only added in 1954), same as I think "In God We Trust" has no business being on the $$.

MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:07 PM
I take it this is the only sport you watched and the only Olympic year you've watched? And you've never been to a baseball game? I was also raised with the "hand on heart for pledge, hands at sides with hat off for anthem" mantra. I thought he was appropriately respectful and I can't understand getting so worked up about it. He was still, eyes slightly glistening, staring at the flag. That, to me, is respect. Hell, he could have been chewing gum, laughing, and trying to talk to the riders next to him for the way you're carrying on.

Nope. And when I'm at a ball game or other place, I don't hesitate to tell men to take their hats off, people to stand quietly, etc.

BLBGP
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:08 PM
Nope. And when I'm at a ball game or other place, I don't hesitate to tell men to take their hats off, people to stand quietly, etc.

But he did have his hat off. And he was standing quietly. And you didn't have to tell him.

MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:10 PM
Did anyone else notice the caption in the picture Glimmerglass posted? Apparently, both Beezie and Laura rode Authentic. Cedric didn't jump at all. Poor Authentic must be so tired, lol. (Yes, I know it was a typo, just thought it was kinda funny and trying to lighten the mood of this thread) :)

I emailed Sports Illustrated this morning. They had a lovely picture of Ward Mclain jumping his horse. They corrected the caption immediately.

MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:13 PM
But he did have his hat off. And he was standing quietly. And you didn't have to tell him.

Did you miss the "etc."?

DMK
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:14 PM
Did you miss the "etc."?

not any more than you missed the issue of whose hats were on.

KSevnter
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:18 PM
I am finding this very amusing, I have to say.

MGP, the US Code states that one "should" doesn't say one "must" so I am having trouble understanding what the issue is.

MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:19 PM
not any more than you missed the issue of whose hats were on.

Women remain covered.

That was pointed out elsewhere.

Perhaps that's outdated, but it's still correct.

Coral
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:20 PM
Riiiiight. Because the majority posting on this particular board disagree with me means I'm wrong.

If it's majority rule, I'll stick with the opinion on the Marine Mom board.

You know... democracy really is majority rule, right? :D It amuses me when individuals assume that democracy is about what they personally want.

Seriously though, the man just represented the country in front of the entire world, I do think that's patriotic enough for anyone. Patriotism is about your feeling for your country, the gestures involved are frivolous and pointless.

MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:21 PM
I am finding this very amusing, I have to say.

MGP, the US Code states that one "should" doesn't say one "must" so I am having trouble understanding what the issue is.

I'm finding the overreaction to my observation amusing.

Coreene
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:23 PM
From Andrew Shepherd, my favorite American President:

America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say 'You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.'

You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free."

Whistlejacket
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:23 PM
Riiiiight. Because the majority posting on this particular board disagree with me means I'm wrong.

If it's majority rule, I'll stick with the opinion on the Marine Mom board.



MGP -

Regardless of the heated content of some of the posts, I think that what has come out of this thread is that there is an honest difference in opinion on this matter. Majority/ minority/ whatever - different "good" people have a difference of opinion.

I would imagine that on the Marine Mom board, your opinion would be in the majority. But by your own logic, would that make it any more "right" simply because your opinion is shared by the majority on that particular board?

Yes, depending on the groups with whom we associate, our opinion can always be "right" because we have self-selected those groups that support the beliefs we had in the first place. And there is nothing wrong with that.

But isn't part of the real value of an open-minded discussion appreciating that just because someone does not share our opinion does not necessarily make them wrong?

WJ

BLBGP
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:23 PM
I'm finding the overreaction to my observation amusing.

It was the big angry face that threw me off. I thought you were truly pissed and ashamed of him, not just making a general observation.

Tiramit
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:23 PM
Ladies, please. Did you not notice that both Beezie and Laura had the American flags on their hats? Wait, wait, let me point out that it was a graphical interpretation of the flag, not Old Glory herself! Should we chastise them for taking creative license with the flag merely for fashion's sake? :lol:

DMK, the proper wine for such a low-class, ill-bred situation would be screwtop wine. That or boxed, preferably with a generic descriptor such as, "white". French, even the country's swill, would be far too high brow.

tullyleague
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:24 PM
I might have a slight crush on Coreene.

MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:24 PM
You know... democracy really is majority rule, right? :D It amuses me when individuals assume that democracy is about what they personally want.

Seriously though, the man just represented the country in front of the entire world, I do think that's patriotic enough for anyone. Patriotism is about your feeling for your country, the gestures involved are frivolous and pointless.

Huh. I'll be sure to let my nephew's buddy know that his gestures as a Sentinal at the Tomb of the Unknowns are frivoulus and pointless.

KSevnter
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:24 PM
From Andrew Shepherd, my favorite American President:

America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say 'You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.'

You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free."

Haha don't you mean from Aaron Sorkin, your favorite American President :)

Alagirl
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:25 PM
Isn't it awful when our gold medalists refuse to show how much they care about their country after winning team competitions? Sure, anyone could go out and jump all those clears for the country; it takes a true American to remember to hold his hand up! I agree, let's kick him out - I think the Germans would take him. :winkgrin:


BWAHAHAHA.....they have enough handsome fellas riding...:lol:

K, the US Saber fencer ladies didn't do it either, but then, they are not known to keep unsavory company....

hey, they stay still in a respectful manner with no hats, all I asked for.

I took my German cousin to the Horse Park in KY one summer....the punk and his punk wife stayed seated during the Anthem...sorry, it is international Ettiquette to stand up....I was fuming mad at them...

Portia
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:26 PM
Thank you Coreene.

The point is, it's not the symbols that matter. What matters is honoring the substance that the symbols stand for. Without that, symbols mean nothing.

Coreene
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:27 PM
Haha don't you mean from Aaron Sorkin, your favorite American President :)Aaron just wrote it. It was Prez Andy who delivered it with such eloquence. And before his very bad facelift.

CBoylen
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:27 PM
I was always taught that the national anthem, for women, was like church. If you're wearing a hat, keep it on. Men: If you're wearing a hat, take it off.
No hands on hearts.
I was also taught that ladies always keep their hats on, and that hands on hearts was appropriate for the pledge of allegiance, not the anthem; during the anthem one should simply stand still with hands at their sides.

mbarrett
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:28 PM
Hey, I watched the jumping live on my computer. I hung around to watch the medal ceremony. All I can say is ...

Give them a break! They won the GOLD medal!! If anything, I thought our riders were a little bit in shock and the win had not sunk in yet.

I don't care if Mclain had his hand over his heart or not during the national anthem. He was respectful during the ceremony. I think they were all a little teary eyed (I was!). It was a pretty emotional moment for our team members.

So let them enjoy the moment. I am basking in their glory!!!!

(I can't believe this is even a topic on the BB! Doesn't ANYTHING make some of you happy?)

BLBGP
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:29 PM
From Andrew Shepherd, my favorite American President:

America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say 'You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.'

You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free."

Ha, you make me happy. I always have to stop and watch that part when it's on TV.

Glimmerglass
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:30 PM
Personally, I'm offended by all the lazy ass folks who fly a flag but can't be bothered to raise it at dawn and lower it at sunset.

Keep in mind if you have a light shining on your flag at night then it is "legal/proper/valid/untreasonous/withoutfearofbeinghorsewhipped" to do so without having to take it down. Or at least that was what I learned long ago in the Boy Scouts.

MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:30 PM
MGP -

Regardless of the heated content of some of the posts, I think that what has come out of this thread is that there is an honest difference in opinion on this matter. Majority/ minority/ whatever - different "good" people have a difference of opinion.

I would imagine that on the Marine Mom board, your opinion would be in the majority. But by your own logic, would that make it any more "right" simply because your opinion is shared by the majority on that particular board?

Yes, depending on the groups with whom we associate, our opinion can always be "right" because we have self-selected those groups that support the beliefs we had in the first place. And there is nothing wrong with that.

But isn't part of the real value of an open-minded discussion appreciating that just because someone does not share your opinion does not necessarily make them wrong?

WJ

Very classy, tasteful post. Thank you.

I've never met anyone who wasn't taught to put their hand over their heart during the Anthem. So I was frankly a little surprised by some of the responses.

But the vitriol being spewed by some of the posters...wow.

Portia
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:35 PM
MGP, a serious question for you.

Do you think that McLain is patriotic and proud of his country? If so, why does the minor symbolism matter so much?

As someone else said, I would far, far rather see someone genuinely moved by the ceremony without his hand on his heart than someone standing there with his hand on his heart and looking like he would rather be doing something else.

(I was raised in California and am part of the group that was taught to stand quietly with hands at side. I didn't run into a big group of folks who did the hand on heart thing for the Anthem until I moved to Texas. And even here, people do it both ways.)

Anyplace Farm
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:35 PM
You put your hand over your heart for the pledge of allegiance not the national anthem at least when I was growing up that was the case. I think politics has changed that because you are unpatriotic and a terrorist if you don't...LOL

I gotta say, I won't hold it against anyone if they don't put their hand over their heart but I actually started to when the impression of the US went into the tank years back.

The more other countries hate on us, the more I feel compelled to cling to my love of our country and standing heart in hand is the only way I know how to show it publicly. I actually enjoy doing it and enjoy singing the anthem. But it does not offend me at all if others choose not to.

KSevnter
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:37 PM
Aaron just wrote it. It was Prez Andy who delivered it with such eloquence. And before his very bad facelift.

Haha very true...what you don't like his very feminine attributes post facelift? I do love that movie, so relevant to today's politics.

Way off topic, but my favorite Sorkin line was from West Wing where Ainsley talks about feminism, that gives me goosebumps.

caffeinated
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:38 PM
Very classy, tasteful post. Thank you.

I've never met anyone who wasn't taught to put their hand over their heart during the Anthem. So I was frankly a little surprised by some of the responses.

But the vitriol being spewed by some of the posters...wow.

I'm not sure why that was so surprising, really. Taken together, your posts here have basically implied you think most of us are disrespectful to our country. So it's sort of like going to the H/J board and implying people are bad riders if a trainer gets on their horse, or going to eventing to complain about the cruelty of log jumps. It's just not likely to end well.

It's just sort of a big assumption to make about people, when they're explaining what they think about certain gestures/symbols.

Ruby G. Weber
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:38 PM
I am of the generation who put their right hand over their heart and said the "Pledge of Alligence" every morning in grammar school.

For the generations born into a United States public school system which no longer allows children to Pledge Alligance to our flag and threatens to remove ...Under God...from that Pledge, I say it's our fault McLain didn't "properly" display his patriotism.

Our generation (the children of the Greatest Generation) allowed the public school systems/government to ban saying the Pledge. Because of our complacency every generation since the outlaw of the "Pledge" has not been given the opportunity to learn how to be patriotic. They've not been taught to be silent during the playing/singing of our National Anthem. (I recently witnessed, at the opening of a Grand Prix a group of Hispanics chatting and beer drinking during the playing of our Anthem. I so wanted to say something.)

I look at McL's non action on the podium and the debate it has sparked as a symptom of a much greater issue.

Phyxius
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:39 PM
You put your hand over your heart for the pledge of allegiance not the national anthem

Correct. You stand and remove cover (hats) for the Anthem. It is not customary to put your hand over your heart for the national anthem.

Overo Kid
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:41 PM
(I recently witnessed, at the opening of a Grand Prix a group of Hispanics chatting and beer drinking during the playing of our Anthem. I so wanted to say something.).

Oh, I wish you had! White people never do that! These Hispanics really need to learn what's right!

Ghazzu
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:42 PM
Keep in mind if you have a light shining on your flag at night then it is "legal/proper/valid/untreasonous/withoutfearofbeinghorsewhipped" to do so without having to take it down. Or at least that was what I learned long ago in the Boy Scouts.


Oh, I know that.
Still, I think in many cases, it's a cop out.
People want the image of More Patriot Than Thou, but it's damned inconvenient to have to actually treat the flag with the respect they claim loudly that it deserves.

(I was born on a NAS, which fer sure raised and lowered the flag daily, and my Gramps was a WWI veteran in the YD, and whenever I was at his house, we raised and lowered the flag every day--and made sure to fold it correctly, as well...)

KSevnter
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:42 PM
I am of the generation who put their right hand over their heart and said the "Pledge of Alligence" every morning in grammar school.

For the generations born into a United States public school system which no longer allows children to Pledge Alligance to our flag and threatens to remove ...Under God...from that Pledge

Wait a sec, "Under God" was injected into the Pledge in the 1950's, it shouldn't be there to begin with. Take that out and I bet very few would take issue with it in the public schools again, its that whole separation of church and state thing that caused the pledge to be taking out of public school rooms.

Tiramit
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:42 PM
Along the lines of taking down flags at night... My husband and I took a friend out to dinner Saturday night. He's from Lebanon and moved here only a few years ago. When we drove to the entrance of our property, I stopped so that my husband could take down the flag. Our friend has lived all over the world and never encountered the practice before and was touched by it, along with our having flown one in the first place. He praised us for being patriotic.

But you know what MGP, while I also put my hand over my heart, I can't say that my putting up / taking down a flag or standing "properly" during the anthem makes me one bit more patriotic than McLain. Actually, given his efforts this morning, I think he's beating me. ;)

MyGiantPony
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:44 PM
MGP, a serious question for you.

Do you think that McLain is patriotic and proud of his country? If so, why does the minor symbolism matter so much?

Honestly, I have no idea if he's patriotic and proud of his country. I've never met him, and if I do, I have a feeling the conversation would be about horses, not flags. ;)

I guess I just don't see it as minor. But I'm heavily involved in veterans' affairs, so maybe it's just a touchier subject for me than most.


As someone else said, I would far, far rather see someone genuinely moved by the ceremony without his hand on his heart than someone standing there with his hand on his heart and looking like he would rather be doing something else.

I guess we can agree to a point...but I hate lessor of two evils examples.

Coreene
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:45 PM
Oh, I wish you had! White people never do that! These Hispanics really need to learn what's right!Can't decide exactly what comment to make re this one, but an airsick bag would be most helpful.

Wow. Talk about wearing your bigotry right there for all to see.

Overo Kid
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:46 PM
Here's the original pledge from the 1890s--
'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

mbarrett
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:48 PM
Come to think of it, there were probably other Americans who won gold in other events at this (and other) Olympics that didn't have hand over their heart during the national anthem.

Are they bad too? Is their performance lesser because of it? Are they unpatriotic?

This is such a NON-ISSUE; people need to get real.

Ghazzu
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:49 PM
I am of the generation who put their right hand over their heart and said the "Pledge of Alligence" every morning in grammar school.

For the generations born into a United States public school system which no longer allows children to Pledge Alligance to our flag and threatens to remove ...Under God...from that Pledge...

"Under God" wasn't part of the original.
It was added in 1954 when anti-Communist sentiment was at a fever pitch.




Our generation (the children of the Greatest Generation) allowed the public school systems/government to ban saying the Pledge.

Where has it been banned?
I do know there are many places where it has been ruled that it is not *compulsory*, but that's a wee bit different...
IIRC, the SCOTUS ruled against banning the pledge.
Our fine system in action, eh? Isn't that what it's all about?

To bring this back to horses, I've seen saddlepads made out of the flag.
I find putting the flag under a saddle to absorb sweat to be more disrespectful than patriotic.
Kinda like the car dealerships with their flag festooned "Presidents' Day Sales Event!!!" That crass commercializing bothers me more than some schlub scratching his nether regions during the playing of a tune that began as an English tavern song.

Overo Kid
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:52 PM
Can't decide exactly what comment to make re this one, but an airsick bag would be most helpful.

Wow. Talk about wearing your bigotry right there for all to see.

I was being sarcastic--white people drink beer and chat during the national anthem all the time. Ever attended a MLB game?

To the MAX
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:55 PM
Can't decide exactly what comment to make re this one, but an airsick bag would be most helpful.

Wow. Talk about wearing your bigotry right there for all to see.

Hmm, I read that post as a sarcastic response to the one that it quoted.

loshad
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:55 PM
Pssst, Coreene, I think OK was being sarcastic.

At least I hope so.


I guess I just don't see it as minor. But I'm heavily involved in veterans' affairs, so maybe it's just a touchier subject for me than most.


What you are failing to acknowledge is that many, many people here grew up with a different tradition of showing respect for the flag during the anthem - namely, stand quietly at attention, hat removed. For all you know, MW is showing his respect in the tradition in which he (and many of the rest of us) was raised. Getting all judgy and holier than thou on him when, in point of fact, he was doing nothing wrong is pretty nasty.

Glimmerglass
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:55 PM
I am of the generation who put their right hand over their heart and said the "Pledge of Alligence" every morning in grammar school.

For the generations born into a United States public school system which no longer allows children to Pledge Alligance to our flag and threatens to remove ...Under God...from that Pledge, I say it's our fault McLain didn't "properly" display his patriotism.

Let's be clear - at the Olympics they play the NATIONAL ANTHEM it is not the pledge of alligance ;)

If anyone wants to moan about a level of disrespect I'd say the vast majority of ALL US Athletes who have won a gold are guilty of not making an attempt to sing the national anthem. For goodness sakes NBC has not mic'd them so even if you couldn't hum a tune you damn well should be able to sing that. But if you're unable to recall so much as one stanza of our National Anthem but were selected to represent the US in the Olympics then I think that's sad.

Whatever you do don't sing the lyrics of "My Country, 'Tis of Thee", when they play God Save The Queen for the Brits - something which is semi-easy to do as we pilfered that medly ;)

Coral
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:55 PM
Wait a sec, "Under God" was injected into the Pledge in the 1950's, it shouldn't be there to begin with. Take that out and I bet very few would take issue with it in the public schools again, its that whole separation of church and state thing that caused the pledge to be taking out of public school rooms.

How dare you bring logic into this high-handed discussion of what is RIGHT? (that was sarcasm, just in case anyone missed it)

I could go on about this, but I'm just going to let it go since this isn't a political debating forum, it's a horse forum. Much <3 to the HORSES and RIDERS involved in getting the United States a gold medal in this fabulous international event, and I can't wait to see it on rewind tonight, including the apparently scandalous medal ceremony.

caffeinated
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:58 PM
Hmm, I read that post as a sarcastic response to the one that it quoted.

Just so people know, I *totally* caught the sarcasm that time. :yes:

Anyplace Farm
Aug. 18, 2008, 04:59 PM
I haven't gone thru every page -- but I have to say, I've been watching the Olympics a lot and now that I think about it, I have not seen one athlete on the podium without their hand over their heart during the anthem (read my post above if you think I'm bashing).

Will be interesting to see if the media makes any mention. Actually, I honestly don't think I can remember ever seeing any athlete at any sporting event not put their hand over heart.

I actually would bet it was not a conscious thing on his part. Maybe he realized it part way through and felt like it'd be awkward to change it? Maybe it just isn't his custom?

Coreene
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:04 PM
Overo Kid, thanks for the PT, my bad for misunderstanding your sarcasm! :yes:

FEIwannabe
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:05 PM
Ok, to flip this on it's head a little:
I was offended by the 'lack of knowledge' displayed by the US athletes that did put their hand over their heart during the anthem (which I was always taught was only for the pledge - because you are pledging, swearing your alegence and loyalty to the flag and country). Yet at the same time I never saw one of them singing the words.
Athletes from other countries seemed to know and sing the words to their anthems...

So there...

huntrpaint
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:05 PM
Have watched many medal ceremonies. No other country besides the US puts their hand on their heart. And a lot of the US doesn't either. Doesn't make a person any less patriotic.

When you are military or have been military and are in civilian clothing you stand at attention rather than hand over heart. If you're in uniform you salute.

Overo Kid
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:05 PM
No problem, Coreene--hey, I'm glad that you spoke up if you thought I meant it!:)

Anyplace Farm
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:07 PM
The beauty about this country is that we are free to express ourselves -- or not.

Coreene
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:09 PM
No problem, Coreene--hey, I'm glad that you spoke up if you thought I meant it!:)I am, too! As for MLB, sadly have not been to a game for years. Must change that! :cool:

Anyplace Farm
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:09 PM
When you are military or have been military and are in civilian clothing you stand at attention rather than hand over heart. If you're in uniform you salute.

I love how when you go to places like the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, when they do the change of the guard, you see the WWII vets -- these snowy-white, sometimes withered souls, standing as erect as they can muster AND saluting. Always gets me...

Stubborn Mare
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:13 PM
Women remain covered.



Does anyone else find this phrase hilarious in this context?! I mean, over in this part of the world we're all making laws against women remaining covered!

On a more serious note, I'm a historian and I specialise in wartime society.... I want to tactfully and cautiously point out that to the rest of the world (especially parts of the world that have seen the devastation that comes from blind national pride) American displays of "patriotism" can sometimes be perceived as over the top, and lead to wrongful impressions of arrogance (not so much at this Olympics, but remember Salt Lake City?). Since the Olympics are an international event, I think it is appropriate for displays of national pride to be subdued, or toned down from the norm. I guess the point I am trying to make is that when riders compete internationally their actions become international ones, not strictly american ones if that makes sense. Sooo, international showjumping should be first and foremost about the sport - the horses, the riders, the skill involved and the cooperation and dedication.... and nationality less so. What happens on the podium should reflect these priorities IMO.

LKF
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:16 PM
http://www.everlifememorials.com/v/flag-cases/american-flag-etiquette.htm

Hopefully this link will help folks who don't know or understand American flag etiquette. As for ladies who stand in front of the flag, they don't remove their hats.

Can we start talking about horses again?

Jasper'sMom
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:28 PM
What I personally find more offensive is the dude has a good honest to God surname as a first name!
That's an affront to humanity.
I suppose it's really his parents fault. I knew there was something I didn't like about his Dad.

ROFL. Yes! That must be it. Or maybe it's that Barney doesn't wear a flag pin? I bet he's a terrorist.

Seriously. I didn't read through everything, but I can tell you that watching the jump off and the medals ceremony this morning had me brushing away the tears. And if I'm not mistaken both Laura and Beezie wiped away some tears, too and the guys looked like they were doing their very best not to cry. Beezie in particular strikes me as a tough cookie and that tear really made me smile. I couldn't have been prouder of our team. What a bunch of brilliant rides they put in for Team USA! Can't wait for the individual competition. :D

Jasper'sMom
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:30 PM
Oh - and I was also delighted to see all of the riders on our team giving big hugs and what looked like very genuine smiles of congrats to the Canadian and Norwegian riders. That made me proud. And did anyone notice GW give a big pat on the back to a couple of the Norwegians? Wish we could have heard what he said.

vineyridge
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:33 PM
Isn't it awful when our gold medalists refuse to show how much they care about their country after winning team competitions? Sure, anyone could go out and jump all those clears for the country; it takes a true American to remember to hold his hand up! I agree, let's kick him out - I think the Germans would take him. :winkgrin:

Don't think the Germans would take him on a sterling silver horse. :winkgrin:

Janet
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drvmb1ggl3 http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3453463#post3453463)


What I personally find more offensive is the dude has a good honest to God surname as a first name!
That's an affront to humanity.
I suppose it's really his parents fault. I knew there was something I didn't like about his Dad.



Even worse, rumor has it that he was named after a HORSE (McLain Street), that was named after an actual street, that I drive across, if not on, when I visit my father.

Heineken
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:41 PM
I haven't read this whole thread...and I don't plan to. But I watched the entire ceremony this am and I also watched McClain congratulate and cry as the team won a gold medal. I also watched him cry on the podium. I also have met him only a few times and he STILL remembers my name each time he sees me (maybe 2x a year) and always says hello. He is a GOOD MAN who works very hard to the better of this sport and takes FABULOUS care of his animals. It is NOT his fault that his father is a jerk(and I'm SURE Barney Ward feels pretty shitty right now that he couldn't be there). It is NOT his fault that he has to continually fight against rumor and libel. Leave the poor guy alone and let him enjoy his moment of glory. I don't see any of YOU on the podium.

Tiger Horse
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:45 PM
MyGiantPony - count me in with you and if that makes me an old fussy woman, so be it. I attend MLB games quite often and it makes me furious when I see people who do not remove their hats (men or women) or place their hands over their hearts during the National Anthem. To me it is hugely disrepectful - to our nation, to the people who gave their lives so that I can live as I do and to those who are still fighting . . .

zahena
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:48 PM
Maybe he didn't know what to do with his flowers.... He's a dude after all....

I'm a belly dancer in my other, other life and I thought they were a lot filled with drama over things. Glad to see that's not the case!

Albion
Aug. 18, 2008, 05:55 PM
I guess I just don't see it as minor. But I'm heavily involved in veterans' affairs, so maybe it's just a touchier subject for me than most.

You think you're the only person who comes from a military background? I come from an Army family - an OLD ARMY family, at that. My grandfather, stepfather, uncle, and father had far better things to worry about - still do (did, in the case of the dearly departed) - than whether or not someone put their hand over their heart during the anthem, which I was not taught growing up, and I've never seen anyone in my family practice. Guess my Papa's Silver Star should've been revoked for lack of patriotism. Give me a break. :no:

jr
Aug. 18, 2008, 06:05 PM
Mooning the flag during the anthem would be disrespectful.

It takes a lot of energy to find fault with a man who listens to the anthem with tears in his eyes.

Congratulations to the team. It's an extraordinary achievement. It's a shame people work so hard tp snipe at others. There are so many more important problems to expend energy on.

Anne FS
Aug. 18, 2008, 06:24 PM
Bet he doesn't wear a flag pin either. So now we KNOW he's a terrorist.

DMK
Aug. 18, 2008, 06:34 PM
Women remain covered.

That was pointed out elsewhere.

Perhaps that's outdated, but it's still correct.

No. There is a tradition that says hats left on for women is OK, hats for men is not. It is not any more sanctified than the whole hand on heart/hands at side issue. BOTH are subject to individual expression, and it appears your individual expression calls for a certain way and clearly other people have a different interpretation.

I suppose if one were to call on the "Miss Manners" for this issue one would rely on the Code, right?

However that code does explicitly say that hands should be on the heart and hats should be removed. I didn't notice an exception in there for women, did you?

You can't embrace only the parts of the rule that suit you (unless you work for FOX). If you start a contentious thread that is fairly disrespectful of a rider based on absolutely nothing but whom you deem to have met your personal standards, I think your standards should be "up to code" or at least having a passing familiarity with a logical and well thought out position. Sadly, yours do not.

Riding Fool
Aug. 18, 2008, 06:36 PM
By the way, did he at least give Saphire a pat? He never used to give his horses a pat as they finished their round & left the ring. That really disturbed me.

If you watch, a LOT of the Olympic competitors did not give obvious pats to their horses. You don't know, he may do so once he leaves the ring. Sapphire is certainly a very happy horse and goes the extra mile for McClain, so I'm sure he shows her appreciation. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Check out the photos and story about Sapphire and her groom on the NBC site - the horse has a great life and is well loved. Not many international riders at McClain's level turn their multi-million dollar horses out in a field so they "can be a horse for awhile."

My initial reaction was that he forgot, was just caught up in the entire moment - at one point, he looked choked up, biting his lip.

I loved that the girls left their helmets on - I would have! Imagine the terrible helmet head, then tons of photos of taken that way, yuck!


My grandfather, stepfather, uncle, and father had far better things to worry about - still do (did, in the case of the dearly departed) - than whether or not someone put their hand over their heart during the anthem, which I was not taught growing up, and I've never seen anyone in my family practice.

Have to agree with you here - my family has long military history. My dad told me it was a military salute for the country he served and he never "instructed" us kids to put our hands over our hearts during the anthem.

Y'all are getting way too political.

DMK
Aug. 18, 2008, 06:43 PM
I loved that the girls left their helmets on - I would have! Imagine the terrible helmet head, then tons of photos of taken that way, yuck!

That's the part about this whole silly stupid discussion is you KNOW the whole reason Beezie and Laura left their hats on was pure vanity, and I so would have joined them if ever I had a chance of sharing their rarified air!

So we have MGB on and on with the McLain bashing for doing something that half the people out there freely admit was how they were raised to do it, but when it comes to an issue of pure unadulterated vanity, mum's the word!

And yes, McLain very much did quiet pats to Sapphire when she was done, although I imagine she was looking a bit more to her groom who I noticed ALWAYS had the big treats ready when she left the ring. But I admit, I got themost choked up when Laura left the ring last after the final victory laps - she gave Cedric about 3 big hugs in the exit chute. ;) Let's face it, that's not a "guy thing" :D

Double Standards. They're What Makes 'Merca GREAT!

dogchushu
Aug. 18, 2008, 06:44 PM
Count me as another one who learned hand on the heart for the Pledge of Allegiance and not for the national anthem. In high school sports, we had a required position for the national anthem which put our feet at shoulder width, chin up, facing the flag, hands behind our backs.

When my brother went to the Air Force Academy, he informed me that I was wrong and hand on the heart was appropriate for the national anthem, but I'd heard the opposite until then.

I think it's safe to assume that (barring an obvious protest) hand on the heart/not on the heart is nothing more than a reflection of how someone has been instructed to show. And people have been taught different ways.

dr j
Aug. 18, 2008, 06:44 PM
Personally, after 9/11, I put my hand on my heart when I hear our anthem. I never want to forget, it's one way I remember.

DOn't care of McLain does, wish he would but there are bigger fish to fry.

So here's the real question...... was the medal ceremony only online or did I miss it on the tube? If it's going to be on the tube ( along with the final and jump off) when?

I have miserable dial up.

J

Anne FS
Aug. 18, 2008, 06:53 PM
You can't embrace only the parts of the rule that suit you (unless you work for FOX).

DMK, you rock!

La Gringa
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:06 PM
I have seen Obama not put his hand over his heart during the Pledge of Allegiance.... if you can believe that.

I personally think Americans should put their hand over their heart for BOTH the Anthem and Pledge.

Michael Phelps had his hand on his heart for all 8 of his Gold medals..

Overo Kid
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:11 PM
MyGiantPony - count me in with you and if that makes me an old fussy woman, so be it. I attend MLB games quite often and it makes me furious when I see people who do not remove their hats (men or women) or place their hands over their hearts during the National Anthem. To me it is hugely disrepectful - to our nation, to the people who gave their lives so that I can live as I do and to those who are still fighting . . .

I actually find it kind of disrespectful to the national anthem to play it at MLB games--why do they do that? Seems like sort of frivolous thing--they don't play it at movie theaters before Star Wars, do they?

Playing it at the Olympics is fine, though. Hand over heart? I think someone can be patriotic without that.

Wellspotted
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:16 PM
It wasn't done when I was growing up. Hand over heart was for the Pledge of Allegiance, not the national anthem. (Of course, most of the time I heard the national anthem I was at a football game playing a band instrument so couldn't very well put my hand over my heart!) I never saw people do that when I was growing up--and I and every American I know are certainly patriotic!

Seems it's gotten to be an accepted practice now--which could mean trouble for people who DON'T do it.

Church is more accepting--you can cross yourself or not, as you feel.


Overo Kid posted:

I actually find it kind of disrespectful to the national anthem to play it at MLB games--why do they do that? Seems like sort of frivolous thing--they don't play it at movie theaters before Star Wars, do they?

I think some of the ways they play/sing it are disrespectful. They used to play it before movies on military bases. And on TV when a channel signed off for the night (which they used to do instead of running paid programs during the small hours). Do they still play the national anthem in Britain in cinemas after the movie?


DMK posted:

... the whole reason Beezie and Laura left their hats on was ...

... that they're women who are familiar with rules of etiquette.

Glimmerglass
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:17 PM
I actually find it kind of disrespectful to the national anthem to play it at MLB games--why do they do that? Seems like sort of frivolous thing--they don't play it at movie theaters before Star Wars, do they?

The national anthem has been played at every horse racing course I've been to in the US before the start of the racing cards. The compliance with refraining from talking, giving attention, removing a hat, and above all else a moment of respect has been exceedingly high at race tracks by comparison baseball games.

Anne FS
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:22 PM
For the obsessors, I just watched the jump-off and McLain gave Sapphire multiple pats after his jump-off round, so take those particular bullets out of your guns.

Overo Kid
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:22 PM
But why do it before sporting events? It seems silly.

Dow Jones
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:23 PM
I just can't believe that he's now won a gold medal and still people get his name wrong all the time. It's McLain, not MacLain or McClain or Mclaine or any other variation. If you're going to discuss him ad nauseum, at least have the decency to spell his name correctly!

Overo Kid
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:24 PM
For the obsessors, I just watched the jump-off and McClain gave Sapphire multiple pats after his jump-off round, so take those particular bullets out of your guns.

My computer wouldn't let me watch the feed, and I don't get Oxygen--but I did watch Sunday on NBC, and I thought that Sapphire looked super relaxed, happy, and in sync with her rider. I can't imagine he's cold to her--she looked like just super, a very happy horse. I don't follow jumping usually--first time I'd seen her, and thought she looked the best of the American horses in some ways. Great mare!

Wellspotted
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:25 PM
DMK posted:

There is a tradition that says hats left on for women is OK, hats for men is not. It is not any more sanctified than the whole hand on heart/hands at side issue.

It's got nothing to do with sanctity, rather to do with one's idea of patriotism. As far as hand on heart goes, I think it's more important what's IN the heart than what's OVER it (hand, handheld hat, etc.) After all, the military don't salute hand on heart (well, not since ancient Rome).

Anne FS
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:30 PM
And as an old fogey myself with LOTS of military members of the family, I think it's inappropriate for women to remove their hats (or helmets) for the National Anthem. It simply isn't done. Men: oh, yes, but not women. My father and father-in-law, both WWII veterans would agree.

And hand on heart is certainly not required, but standing still and not talking or shifting about certainly is mandatory.

FEIwannabe
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:40 PM
Please, someone shut down this silly thread.

Big Day
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:44 PM
WHAH WHAH...Sounds like the OP is trying to be Saturday Night Live's Debbie Downer...

Really, give it a break. Take a deep breath and try to be forgiving. They are riders, not in their element, standing on a podium in front of millions of people. If they forget to put their hand over their heart, really, I think their patriotism should not be questioned.

Just for once, can we all just enjoy the moment???

Overo Kid
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:45 PM
I'd really rather it be ERASED.

Dispatcher
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:45 PM
If you watch, a LOT of the Olympic competitors did not give obvious pats to their horses. You don't know, he may do so once he leaves the ring. Sapphire is certainly a very happy horse and goes the extra mile for McClain, so I'm sure he shows her appreciation. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Check out the photos and story about Sapphire and her groom on the NBC site - the horse has a great life and is well loved. Not many international riders at McClain's level turn their multi-million dollar horses out in a field so they "can be a horse for awhile."

My initial reaction was that he forgot, was just caught up in the entire moment - at one point, he looked choked up, biting his lip.

I loved that the girls left their helmets on - I would have! Imagine the terrible helmet head, then tons of photos of taken that way, yuck!



Have to agree with you here - my family has long military history. My dad told me it was a military salute for the country he served and he never "instructed" us kids to put our hands over our hearts during the anthem.

Y'all are getting way too political.


Ahh, then perhaps you haven't watched him over his career. McClain's horses work very hard for him. He is very LUCKY that he has had such fabulous animals. However, I don't think he share thes compassion for the animals that a lot of us riders do. It's a business to him. Just like it was for his father.

He's a professional horseback rider. Who does very well. Once again, he has a fabulous animal that makes him a star. The horses are not machines, and they deserve praise after they perform for him. Immediate praise. Not after they leave the ring. Perhaps he has changed his ways, but in the past, he never praised his animals after a round. It has nothing to do with patriotism. With him, it's all a business.

lauriep
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:54 PM
From Andrew Shepherd, my favorite American President:

America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say 'You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.'

You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free."

Mine, to!!!!!!!!! I LOOOOVED this speech, and SOOOOO agree with it. I was just going to bring up (oh, horrors) flag burning. And the effort to amend the Constitution to abolish it. This country needs to get back in touch with what TRUE patriotism is, and, while I'm at it, TRUE spiritualism. Not the gewgaws that are hawked in the name of patriotism, and the saved ones who find it their duty to tell you how to live and believe. Flags, pins, anthems and crosses do NOT make you patriotic or spiritual.

ise@ssl
Aug. 18, 2008, 07:56 PM
I always put my hand over my heart for the national anthem. While there is a law requiring it - it's obviously everyone's choice. I have always done it but after 9/11, I would NEVER forget to do it and I do sing along. Every time I go by ground zero I wonder what it will take for some people to stop putting down patriotism... and FOX has nothing to do with it.

Southernexposure
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:03 PM
Ok if you were standing up there getting the gold medal .. ... I'd be trying to capture the moment before it was gone and try not to pee in my pants!:yes:

JSwan
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:10 PM
Yup. Same with horse sports. Gentleman remove their caps/tip their cap, ladies nod. For the anthem,gentlemen remove their hats, ladies do not. Nothing to do with helmet head. In society, when entering a room men remove their hats, ladies may remain with hat on head, to be removed at their discretion. Except in the evening; women would not wear hats at table. (to my weak recollection)

Yes, I know I sound old fashioned. Though I have spied a gentleman or two here and there. Really. Ladies.... not so much. :D


IIRC, the only hard and fast rule anymore is for men to remove their hats.

BLBGP
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:13 PM
Sometimes I think that humans are hard-wired to be constantly on alert for fight or flight situations. And since those of us sitting in front of computers typing right now generally have our needs taken care of and aren't having to run from dinosaurs anymore, we're subconsciously searching for something to panic about. So we get in a tizzy about what McLain didn't do with his hand during the anthem. A man who was obviously emotional and stood still and attentive. A man who excelled in the Olympics in a sport that we love. We can't just enjoy that?

zagafi
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:13 PM
Mine, to!!!!!!!!! I LOOOOVED this speech, and SOOOOO agree with it. I was just going to bring up (oh, horrors) flag burning. And the effort to amend the Constitution to abolish it. This country needs to get back in touch with what TRUE patriotism is, and, while I'm at it, TRUE spiritualism. Not the gewgaws that are hawked in the name of patriotism, and the saved ones who find it their duty to tell you how to live and believe. Flags, pins, anthems and crosses do NOT make you patriotic or spiritual.

I could not agree with you more.

RainyDayRide
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:16 PM
Ok if you were standing up there getting the gold medal .. and you forgot something so elementary... I wouldn't be suprised.


Or, maybe like quite a few of us, he wasn't forgetting something so elementary, he was following the instruction so many of us have posted we were told was the correct behavior from childhood.

signed,

another board member with a number of family members who have served

lauriep
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:17 PM
Ahh, then perhaps you haven't watched him over his career. McClain's horses work very hard for him. He is very LUCKY that he has had such fabulous animals. However, I don't think he share thes compassion for the animals that a lot of us riders do. It's a business to him. Just like it was for his father.

He's a professional horseback rider. Who does very well. Once again, he has a fabulous animal that makes him a star. The horses are not machines, and they deserve praise after they perform for him. Immediate praise. Not after they leave the ring. Perhaps he has changed his ways, but in the past, he never praised his animals after a round. It has nothing to do with patriotism. With him, it's all a business.

As it is a business with most all the professionals, past and present. The three REALLY big name trainers that I worked for, and with, were all fond of their horses, but that was it. They were in the barn to do a job, or be sold. Women become more attached then men. And, don't confuse COMPASSION (which they all share, including McLain) with affection. Big difference. And I am one who doesn't personally believe that the horse understands what he is being patted for and most CERTAINLY doesn't know that the treats are a reward for leaving the rails up.

Beezer
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:17 PM
I'm a belly dancer in my other, other life and I thought they were a lot filled with drama over things. Glad to see that's not the case!

OK ... out of all the things posted on this thread, THIS is what I want to know more about! :p I don't think I've ever "met" a real, live belly dancer before.

So, tell me Zahena: Are you a pro? Do you compete in the BDOs (Belly Dancer Olympics)? Do you, like, compete as an individual or on a team? What about the judges -- are they as political as they are in dressage? And if you win, do you sway along with the anthem?

Inquirying minds want to know!

Dixon
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:25 PM
. . . since those of us sitting in front of computers typing right now generally have our needs taken care of and aren't having to run from dinosaurs anymore . . .

Speak for yourself -- you should meet my boss. ;)

BAC
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:25 PM
I don't put my hand over my heart for the anthem either.

Honestly, this strikes me as kind of a non-issue..

Neither do I and until this thread I never realized there was a "law" about it. I don't think its a lack of patriotism, many of the other athletes don't do it either. Find something more important to talk about.

DMK
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:26 PM
Like I said, you may feel it should be hats off for the men and hats on for the women, and I agree as far as riding goes, that is as it should be... ;) But when it comes to the national anthem, after your opinion and how you were raised, if you are looking for some sort of "regulation", so far here's the one we have. So if you were looking for something to hang you hat on, as it were, ;) I'm still looking for the language that supports hats on versus off based on gender. Not seeing it, but still looking.


Ah. Here is the law...
United States Code, 36 USC Sec. 301, states that during the playing of "The Star Spangled Banner" (United States National Anthem) when the flag is displayed, everyone except those in uniform should stand at attention while facing the flag with their right hand over their heart. Those in attendance who are not in uniform should remove any head wear with their right hand and hold it at their left shoulder, with their right hand held over their heart. Individuals in uniform should show the military salute during the first note of the anthem and stay in this position until the last note. If the flag is not displayed, people in attendance should face the music and respond as if the flag were present.

Me, I feel very uncomfortable the few times I have had a ballcap on when the national anthem is played, and yet I haven't taken it off. And perhaps owing to having two Southern parents, I always felt it was appropriate to have my hand on my heart. But I always accepted it was OK to stand politlely at attention staring at even an imaginary flag.

LaurieP/Corinne. A.Men. It's always important to remember what we love most about this country, even when it includes utterly ridiculous discussions like this one. :D

Wanderluster
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:26 PM
From Andrew Shepherd, my favorite American President:

America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say 'You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.'

You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free."

Yes this is the country that became united through of a bunch of renegades who refused to bow and courtesy to the monarchs and insisted on personal rights.
I see Maclain's oversight as just that, not a statement but an omission and with the pressure of the games an understandable one. Hopefully he will be standing there again soon and a little more cognizant of the moment.

Anne FS
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:27 PM
Please, someone shut down this silly thread.

You just guaranteed that it'll hit 20 pages.

ESPECIALLY now that belly-dancing has been brought up.

Guin
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:27 PM
I was mesmerized by this thread - kind of like watching Britney Spears being hauled away by the cops - it's sordid and pathetic, but I couldn't help myself.

GREAT GOOGLY-MOOGLY, WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? Have you nothing better to snipe at in your petty lives that you have to criticize an American athlete who just won a gold medal for YOUR country because his HAND is in the "wrong place"? I know where my finger is pointing - in the OP's general direction. Get over yourself! :rolleyes:

Anne FS
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:31 PM
So, tell me Zahena: Are you a pro? Do you compete in the BDOs (Belly Dancer Olympics)? Do you, like, compete as an individual or on a team? What about the judges -- are they as political as they are in dressage? And if you win, do you sway along with the anthem?


And where does the flag pin go? Or are you a terrorist?

GreystoneKC
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:33 PM
We bitch about riders showing no respect for the sport by not wearing hairnets.

I didn't say they didn't have respect for the sport...

I just said they looked fugly.

lol

Bats79
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:36 PM
Respect for your country is nothing to laugh about. Equating that with whether or not someone puts his hand on his heart for the anthem is.

I like that reply. That goes for every country, religion, doctrine, law or personal decision that anyone makes.

My brother's reaction...

A bunch of rebellious Poms, Krauts, Clog Wog's, Iti's etc who fled from being told what to do and how to do it are COMPLAINING because someone (not thinking of political correctness at the time) forgot to put his hand over his heart while listening attentively and emotionally to the national anthem of his country?

Wouldn't be from the US would they? LOL no offence intended but look how long this thread is.

Anyplace Farm
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:43 PM
Having now had an opportunity to watch the medal ceremony, I noticed that it took Will a bit to put his hand over his heart as well and like another poster said, I think it had to do with being caught up in the moment and having the flowers in their hands. No one looked like they were disrespecting our country and no one didn't look like they were proud. I think McLain was actually quite overcome with emotion. He looked both proud to be an American, proud of his personal accomplishment, proud of his team and truly humbled by the experience. I can't even imagine how surreal it must feel to be up there. I'd surely do something idiotic to cause the entire world to talk about it (not like I'll EVER make it anywhere NEAR where he has).

Portia
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:52 PM
Yes, women traditionally keep their hats on -- because back in 18th and 19th century in Europe women's hats were tied on and/or pinned into their hair and couldn't be quickly removed without damaging the 'do. Whereas men's hats or caps could be easily removed. (Women didn't wear hats at night, so it wasn't an issue then.)

So the tradition was and is still all about hat/helmet hair. ;)

But the important question is, do belly dancers wear hats? And if so, when and how do they remove them? :D

Anne FS
Aug. 18, 2008, 08:54 PM
He looked both proud to be an American, proud of his personal accomplishment, proud of his team and truly humbled by the experience.

Well, I AM TOO (proud of him). And of the entire team. I hope that's certainly the message that's being conveyed to him and all the team: WELL DONE. We're all so proud ,and THANK YOU.

Kenike
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:00 PM
Not only do I put my hand over my heart, I stand at attention.

As a veteran, I'm not offended by McClain's action today. Instead, I could see he was taken by the moment and not being a jerk. It's forgivable. :yes:

pAin't_Misbehavin'
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:01 PM
OK, normally I hate it when people post and haven't read the thread, but damn, eleven pages because someone didn't put their hand over their heart when FSK's Ballad of Fort McHenry played? I can't do it, sorry.

I just want to know if the offender has been tearing Wallace stickers off the bumpers of cars, and if he even has a garage, with a communist flag tacked up on the wall?:D

JSwan
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:05 PM
I think we should start a thread on belly dancing. Now that would be worth 11 pages.

Talk about core strength.

Portia is correct about helmet hair back when women wore hats - but women often did take their hats off indoors. So maybe in the next Olympics we can kvetch about a hairnetless female equestrian with her hands in her pockets or and her helmet held under her arm.

BarbB
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:10 PM
ok, show of hands....who actually CARES what he did on the medal stand?

Now....everyone who raised their hand needs to go out right this moment and get a life. :lol:

No, I haven't read the whole thread....don't plan to.

carry on :cool:

MFP
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:13 PM
Let me apologize for not reading all the replies. I am using my blackberry to stay in touch with the show jumping while we are on vacation in Maine (no Cable or Internet)... But I saw this thread and I have to jump in.

First, congradulations to Mclain, Bezzie, Will and Laura. You have made countless of horse people back home SO PROUD of you!!! Thank you for all your hard work and dedication.

Second - I can not believe that someone is jumping on Mclain's case for not putting his hand over his heart... How dare you try to deminish this moment for Mclain and the other members of the team. Heart covering or not... I am proud of Mclain and the team.

Finally, I am proud to live in a country that had Freedom of Speach, Freedom of Press and many other freedoms that our Founding Father gave us... Let's not take being American for granted and Slam people for the little things. People need to stop being so critical...

-MFP

PS- I don't recommend posting a reply using a Blackberry...

Foxtrot's
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:15 PM
For the record McLain did put his hand over his heart. Will was the one who stood to attention. Bear in mind that that these guys looked definitely unpracticed - trying to shake hands, decide whether to do it before or after the medal was hung around their necks, where to put the helmet, how to hang onto the flowers and shake hands (again) and still put their hand over their heart - and don't forget one kiss or two for Princess Haya. Then they had to decide how to turn in unison to wave to the other side of the arena, cope with the emotion, wave with or without flowers held high, hug each other - not easy - you get the picture.

Whatever ---- the whole jump off is one for the history books.
Must be the best feeling in the world for Will to go clean and know he saved their fourth rider from having to go.

Sapphire - what a doll, snaffle mouth, looked like a hunter - if ever I hear anything more about that chestnut mare prejudice, I'll puke.

ItchyRichie
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:18 PM
Maybe it's just me being a fussy old woman, but I'm very patriotic.

In all the pictures I've seen, Mclain is the only one without his hand over his heart during the National Anthem.

I didn't get to see the actual ceremony - did anyone notice?

Anyone close enough to him to give him a little lesson on proper behavior during the National Anthem?

who CARES!! The action of putting your hand approximately directly over top of a big, beating, blood pumping organ does not in any way affect a geographical location. NOT ONE SINGLE WAY! I hope MORE PEOPLE stop putting their hand over their heart during the national anthem since it will signify man finally overcoming superstition.

sorry if that was hostile, but the fact that someone would care about something so trivial makes so mad.

Glimmerglass
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:27 PM
I think we should start a thread on belly dancing. Now that would be worth 11 pages.

It still would be a fraction of the total pages and energy expended to date bemoaning the amount of women's volleyball coverage given to date on this BB ;)

jlf
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:30 PM
This is a strange thread to me - not because of the OP's comment/question, but because of the responses, which imply the idea of holding your hand over your heart during the national anthem is ridiculous. For real????

I noticed that he didn't as well as well. This is event distinctive in that the only reason Mclain is riding in Beijing is to represent his country in an international comptetition.... and it's not often you get to see your riders on top of the podium with the U.S. anthem playing. Am I disappointed that he didn't do it? A little, but I really don't think anything different of him (I like the guy). I am disappointed the people who think showing respect is stupid and playing the anthem is a waste of time at sporting events. We're very lucky to live here, despite all of this country's shortcomings. I also think it's pretty great tradition, and a nice expression of respect for what we've got. It's sad to see traditions like this start to fade off....

Jeez, OP, I bet you weren't expecting these responses. I didn't think it was a ridiculous question, nor did I think you were trying to diminish/taint his (their) well-deserved gold. I guess the answer to your question is that this tradition is losing it's value/point among our citizens.

And for whoever said the olympics doesn't involve patriotism....um, it doesn't? It kind of seems like a great display to me...from all countries....

Peggy
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:36 PM
Kind of a non-issue, IMHO. Sort of like the choice to go with hunter hair. The unbraided horses probably bother me more for some reason, but maybe they don't like having their hair done.

Anselcat
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:37 PM
Until the US Code was posted here I had no idea there was a CODE! I have never received a copy of this code ? Has anyone received a copy of the Congressional Codes? I would think MAYBE someone who was studying for their citizenshiop would certainly know about the code. If you make the US Olympic team do they give you a handout of the CODE? I'm from a career Marine family and I don't recall anything about the "Code". but then again perhaps my father was a little over mililtary protocol after being in 3 wars.

The US Code is the set of Federal Laws. You know when someone says, "Congress oughta pass a law"? The result is the US Code. :)
http://www.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/

JSwan
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:39 PM
This Code isn't exactly something you can stick in your wallet, ya know. It's a big bigger than a condom.

springer
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:40 PM
Well, since this pot is a-stirrin', lemme just add that when I say the Pledge, I say "One nation .... with liberty and justice for all" and leave out "under God," which I think has no place in the Pledge (which was of course only added in 1954), same as I think "In God We Trust" has no business being on the $$.

You're kidding, right? Are you also one of those people who protests Christmas?

And BTW... Andrew Shephard WASN'T a real president. I hate to break it to you!!!!!

jumpinjackflash
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:43 PM
I've got a 6'x 9' flag pin, beat that. It's got wheels and a hitch on it. Bought an F350 just to haul it around.

LMFAO! i saw someone that actually had one of these. in VERMONT. his f350 was bright yellow. and loud.......

too funny.:D

jumpinjackflash
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:44 PM
You're kidding, right? Are you also one of those people who protests Christmas?

And BTW... Andrew Shephard WASN'T a real president. I hate to break it to you!!!!!

I agree....they probably DO protest Christmas.

JSwan
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:45 PM
It still would be a fraction of the total pages and energy expended to date bemoaning the amount of women's volleyball coverage given to date on this BB ;)

What a coincidence. Guess what's on the boob toob as we speak. :sleepy::lol:

Glimmerglass
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:46 PM
Worth pointing out - Beezie took off her helment and was without any cap for a gold medal photo session (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//080818/483/580453af7ef84ca8b910687907c131d3/) so the suggestion of having to keep it on during the national anthem well anyhow, we'll drop it ;)

(AP photo) Note that McLain had both hands occupied (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//080818/483/82c9f292714149118d57b8b0c78625fd/) - helmet in one and flowers in the other - during the anthem. Another shot of the same from Reuters news photograph - during the National Anthem (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//080818/ids_photos_sp/r3446229469.jpg/).

jumpinjackflash
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:48 PM
[QUOTE=jlf;3454728]This is a strange thread to me... because of the responses, which imply the idea of holding your hand over your heart during the national anthem is ridiculous. For real????

I noticed that he didn't as well as well. This is event distinctive in that the only reason Mclain is riding in Beijing is to represent his country in an international comptetition.... and it's not often you get to see your riders on top of the podium with the U.S. anthem playing. Am I disappointed that he didn't do it? A little, ... I am disappointed the people who think showing respect is stupid and playing the anthem is a waste of time at sporting events. We're very lucky to live here, despite all of this country's shortcomings. I also think it's pretty great tradition, and a nice expression of respect for what we've got. It's sad to see traditions like this start to fade off....

WELL SAID.... couldn't agree with you more.:yes:

Jasper'sMom
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:51 PM
You're kidding, right? Are you also one of those people who protests Christmas?

And BTW... Andrew Shephard WASN'T a real president. I hate to break it to you!!!!!

You know, I gotta say this is off topic, but this gets under my skin. I'm an atheist. I don't love that our FEDERAL money and pledge and what not are all full of god stuff. I don't really care who celebrates Xmas or any other religious holiday and no, I don't "protest Xmas". But you know, it's a PITA being an atheist in this country sometimes. Because we're all about separation of church & state. But really we're not. We're about separation of OTHER people's churches from our state.

Anyway, I don't care about silly stuff like flag pins and hand over heart. I care more about people who are kind to each other and who can show good sportsmanship. And that's just what I saw on the podium - delighted, proud team, beaming with happiness. Good for them!

JSwan
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:52 PM
I'm aghasted. Throw the bums out. :lol:

How many people really know etiquette these days. Most of us don't even know which fork or glass to use.

He showed respectful attention - all etiquette really requires. I'll hazard a guess and say these folks don't have a protocol officer following them around. ;)

Peggy
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:55 PM
Well, since this pot is a-stirrin', lemme just add that when I say the Pledge, I say "One nation .... with liberty and justice for all" and leave out "under God," which I think has no place in the Pledge (which was of course only added in 1954), same as I think "In God We Trust" has no business being on the $$.There is an noticeable drop in volume during the "under God" portion of the pledge on the faculty podium at our college's graduation. But, you know, commie college faculty and all that;) And, it's Santa Monica;)

sisu27
Aug. 18, 2008, 09:56 PM
Please, kill this thread. It is idiotic. Can't you people just be happy you won gold for like two minutes??? He just won your country a freakin' gold medal, cut him some slack. Quite sure it wasn't some premeditated attempt to slight his home country. I know you guys are fiercely patriotic and that is cool but this is just bizarre.

Wellspotted
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:03 PM
J Swan posted:

How many people really know etiquette these days. Most of us don't even know which fork or glass to use.

And that's something to brag about? :rolleyes:

McLain would have been perfectly correct to have held his helmet over his heart, the way baseball players place their caps over their hearts, had he wished to do so.

I wish COTHers would learn that "aghasted" is NOT a word! If something shocks/upsets/disturbs one, then one is "aghast." "Aghast" is not a verb, therefore it has no past tense, and so one cannot be "aghasted."

Maybe now the mods should close this thread. Such a long thread, and how horsey is it? :sleepy:

talloaks
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:05 PM
This is a strange thread to me - not because of the OP's comment/question, but because of the responses, which imply the idea of holding your hand over your heart during the national anthem is ridiculous. For real????

I noticed that he didn't as well as well. This is event distinctive in that the only reason Mclain is riding in Beijing is to represent his country in an international comptetition.... and it's not often you get to see your riders on top of the podium with the U.S. anthem playing. Am I disappointed that he didn't do it? A little, but I really don't think anything different of him (I like the guy). I am disappointed the people who think showing respect is stupid and playing the anthem is a waste of time at sporting events. We're very lucky to live here, despite all of this country's shortcomings. I also think it's pretty great tradition, and a nice expression of respect for what we've got. It's sad to see traditions like this start to fade off....

Jeez, OP, I bet you weren't expecting these responses. I didn't think it was a ridiculous question, nor did I think you were trying to diminish/taint his (their) well-deserved gold. I guess the answer to your question is that this tradition is losing it's value/point among our citizens.

And for whoever said the olympics doesn't involve patriotism....um, it doesn't? It kind of seems like a great display to me...from all countries....

Well said, thank you!!:)

CoolMeadows
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:09 PM
OMG this can't be for real! Jeez, Mclain just can't win huh? I am so thrilled and proud of him, of the whole team... they were all amazing! GO TEAM! AND CANADA! Woohoooo, it couldn't have been a better competition and we should all be proud of how incredibly our team represented the U.S. Fan-freakin'-tastic. :D

Portia
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:13 PM
I wish COTHers would learn that "aghasted" is NOT a word! If something shocks/upsets/disturbs one, then one is "aghast." "Aghast" is not a verb, therefore it has no past tense, and so one cannot be "aghasted."

Aghasted is a joke. :D Someone used it as a real word once long ago, and it immediately became a COTH favorite fake-word. If I recall correctly, Coreene provided the official COTH definition:

Aghasted, verb: When somebody standing next to you farts a really big fart then walks away, leaving you to suffer the consequences, you've been aghasted.

:lol: :lol:

JSwan
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:14 PM
Nope. Not bragging. I know which fork and glass to use, I know the US Code isn't something you can carry in your wallet, and I know how to show respect for a flag.

But I don't think many other people do. And since the last time I spoke of reverence and respect for traditions in eventing, I had newbies complaining that they should be able to wear all the doodads that have great significance in another sport. Just cuz they think it's cool.

In short - some people don't care. I do. That and a dollar will get me a cup of coffee.

And as I so frequently point out, the word "aghasted" is a rather unique COTH'ism coined by some posters. I do know the correct form; I chose to use it for a reason. Which escaped you.




And that's something to brag about? :rolleyes:

McLain would have been perfectly correct to have held his helmet over his heart, the way baseball players place their caps over their hearts, had he wished to do so.

I wish COTHers would learn that "aghasted" is NOT a word! If something shocks/upsets/disturbs one, then one is "aghast." "Aghast" is not a verb, therefore it has no past tense, and so one cannot be "aghasted."

Maybe now the mods should close this thread. Such a long thread, and how horsey is it? :sleepy:

sisu27
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:18 PM
I wish COTHers would learn that "aghasted" is NOT a word! If something shocks/upsets/disturbs one, then one is "aghast." "Aghast" is not a verb, therefore it has no past tense, and so one cannot be "aghasted."

Will raise you one "loose and lose are NOT interchangeable";)

jlf
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:26 PM
I think the national anthem at sporting events trivializes the anthem. The national anthem should be played in parades, ceremonies, and the like, certainly the Olympics--but why at a baseball game? Maybe national championships--the world series or the superbowl--but at every MLB all year long?

It's all about show--play the anthem at a game, put your hand over your heart, wear a flag pin. But heaven forbid somebody criticize, somebody say, "shouldn't there have been a little more outrage over Abu Ghraib? Shouldn't some heads have rolled?" Criticism is patriotic, wanting the U.S. to be the best it can be is patriotic--only through criticism do you grow strong. That kind of thing is more patriotic than the anthem at MLB games, holding your hand over your heart, or flag pins--for some, those things are about blind loyalty and just for show. Citizenship is action.

I disagree. If patriotism is only expressed through criticism, then it almost becomes a negative thing (even if the outcome is positive and we grow). I think it's very important to attach positive actions/traditions to the idea--even if they seem trival--to provide an important balance. Symbols are very powerful, even when you think nobody is noticing.

Also, I'm pretty sure playing the national anthem at MLB games is historically-rooted...I think it started during WWI/WWII, when patriotism was particularly high. I like these types of traditions....helps you understand where you came from/connects you to the past. I don't think this particular symbol needs to be reserved for only special events.

BLBGP
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:29 PM
This is a strange thread to me - not because of the OP's comment/question, but because of the responses, which imply the idea of holding your hand over your heart during the national anthem is ridiculous. For real????


I think most people are reacting to someone being pissed that he didn't hold his hand over his heart. I can understand noticing, but getting all upset about it? That gets a "for real????" from me. Of all the threads on this page, this is the only one with a red angry face icon.

I'm watching it right now and it looks like he just doesn't know what to do with his full hands. Nothing evil and premeditated. Just a guy with full hands during an incredibly emotional moment who happens to train and ride horses real good.

granfan
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:29 PM
Well, he removed his 'hat'. Sometimes in Texas men do not even know that much about good manners.

I was proud to see the others with hands on hearts. However, it did strike my attention more than usual. Generally, I watch for composure, as the tears run down my face, at home. I do not remember seeing 'hands on hearts' in a long time. I thought it wonderful.

Portia
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:38 PM
Well, he removed his 'hat'. Sometimes in Texas men do not even know that much about good manners.
That's why the announcer at the PBR always has to tell the audience to "stand, and remove cover, for our National Anthem." ;)

Glimmerglass
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:42 PM
Also, I'm pretty sure playing the national anthem at MLB games is historically-rooted.

As a one-time employee of The National Baseball Hall of Fame & Museum (now that's the after school job to have while in high school) I can give you the answer ...

The first performance of the National Anthem at any sporting event was baseball's Opening Day in Philadelphia, 1897

The only time the National Anthem is not played before the start of a Major-League baseball game? When it's the start of the 2nd game of a double-header ;)

Pat
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:46 PM
This board NEVER ceases to amaze me.

wow

I guess I'm a commie too. It was taught to me that the hand over heart was for the Pledge.

Oh, and I'm also one of those soul-less athiests that doesn't think God or the mention thereof belongs on any US document or the Pledge. Take it out, still makes sense, doesn't it? sheesh. IMO, it's racist by nature, unless you use the opportunity to acknowledge EVERY religion known to man.

Seriously people. He stood, still, at attention, and he looked like he was going to just plain melt he was so happy. sheesh. But, yeah, he's a baaaad boy because he didn't satisfy *some* peoples idea of patriotism.

Oh, and because some people missed him giving Saphire a pat, he's a baaaad horseman. sheesh. I'm sure all the other horses just plain LOOOVED being walloped on the neck because they had a clear trip. I'm sure they all would have prefered a cookie and a snuggle from thier real mommies (grooms) to several wallops on the neck.

Good grief. I'm glad *this* is what we have to argue about.

Overo Kid
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:48 PM
:lol: yeah--some of those "pats" always look mighty rough to me, what are they trying to do, knock the poor beasts down?

FEIwannabe
Aug. 18, 2008, 10:50 PM
That's why the announcer at the PBR always has to tell the audience to "stand, and remove cover, for our National Anthem." ;)

I LOVE the PBR!!!
A shame Marchi didn't ride as well at the World Cup as he normally does.
Oh, he is a hottie.

GreystoneKC
Aug. 18, 2008, 11:13 PM
Pledge: Stand at attention, hand over heart

National Anthem: Stand at attention facing flag, men remove hats, women do not, no hand over heart.

Also have military in family.

In fact, I don't LIKE when other people DO put their hands over their heart for the national anthem. But you don't see me bitching about the fact that the other 3 of them did, do you? No.

It's about how you *feel* more than anything else. People here SERIOUSLY need to get off their high horses. I don't see YOU out there winning gold medals!

Foxtrot's
Aug. 18, 2008, 11:19 PM
This thread is simply petty - because McLain did put his hand on his chest, somehow, with the flowers, hat and all - well, in the version I saw. People - come on - is it so fun slanging some poor guy who just helped win a gold medal for your country. Is it so fun being grammar police for a word that is very self-explanatory and harmless? It is a deliberate corruption - get it?

Sometimes I admit to coming on a BB and my friends look at me in disbelief that I spend time on it. Well, for threads like this they are right, but then I think of all the fun times, the genuine help, knowledge and comedy, sympathy and genuine people that make up the rest of the BB. Parts of it are better than tv.

SR Rider
Aug. 18, 2008, 11:26 PM
If I were participating at the Olympics for my country, I would place my hand over my heart and be teary eyed during the playing of my national anthem....it would all come naturally. I am patriotic and not ashamed of it.

I could see why a lot of people in many countries would not feel that way about their country...most of them would give anything to immigrate here and enjoy what we have.

Beverley
Aug. 18, 2008, 11:41 PM
Goodness, much ado about nothing. He stood at attention with his lid off, that's good enough for me.

But, talkin' 'bout how etiquette and manners seem to be on their way to totally lost art- saluting the jury before beginning the round seems to be pretty much gone. I recognize the harnesses are a deterrent for the men, but there are acceptable equivalent efforts that could be made.

Like J Swan, I'm aghasted.:)

Pat
Aug. 18, 2008, 11:48 PM
Once again, amazement. So, SR, you are saying that MW is not a patriot because he didn't place his hand over his heart???

I JUST DON"T UNDERSTAND. Where is this mentality coming from. THIRTEEN PAGES. I'd say a fair guess would be that half of the people who've chimed in don't even believe it's a 'requirement'!! So I just guess we are all commies.

Oh, yeah, and women and hats. I can't recall ever there being a rule that they must, nevermind should. Have you EVER seen a female rider remove thier hat for the medal ??? I can't recall a single time. And if one did, it's her perogitive. There are different "rules" regarding hats for men vs. women. Like it is PERFECTLY acceptable for woment to wear hats indoors. It is NOT for men. Of course, nobody teaches that any more, but what ever, I give up. Or, men should remove gloves to shake hands, but women do not. Well, *I* do, but my gloves are usually too 'horsey' for words.

Fidgeting, talking, not paying attention, THAT IS DISRESPECTFUL. Not choosing not to put one's hand over one's heart. Next you'll be telling me you must sing as well. I generally don't. I spare my neighbors my poor singing voice, I'm sure they appreciate it.

Aghasted. It's a COTHism you moron. There are plenty of them. Check the FAQ and get over yourself.

<Head explodes>

Maybe if I sign off, take a shower, go watch the rest of the gymnastics, this whole foolish thread will just put it's hand over it's heart and disappear.

Pat
Aug. 18, 2008, 11:53 PM
But, talkin' 'bout how etiquette and manners seem to be on their way to totally lost art- saluting the jury before beginning the round seems to be pretty much gone. I recognize the harnesses are a deterrent for the men, but there are acceptable equivalent efforts that could be made.



I wasnt' paying attention and I missed the beginning of a few rounds, is that not *done* any more?? That ain't right. One *can* turn in the direction of the jury and give a nod.

Party Rose
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:00 AM
But gotta' say wrong song if one wants to be picky and did anyone notice where George's right hand was?

Enjoy this time and don't bring the spirit that this wonderful day has brought us all. Yes they're not "our" medals, but they are in our hearts.

Now that I've put my two cents in (selfish or what?) I hope that this thread gets locked.

Pat
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:06 AM
Blue is me...


But gotta' say wrong song (huh, what do you mean, I'm confused) if one wants to be picky and did anyone notice where George's right hand was? (99% sure over his heart.)



not nicking pits, just don't understand the 'wrong song' bit

notice I still have to sign off and take that shower. leaving now, promise.

vxf111
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:20 AM
You know, I think that's the most "emotional" I've ever seen Mclain. I think he's just a flattened affect kind of guy, that's who he is. I saw him win at Devon and he looked totally blase. Look at his expression in the jumpoff, cool as a cucumber. I think that's just who he is... but I thought I saw glistening eyes during that medal ceremony. :):)

Molly Sorge
Aug. 19, 2008, 12:28 AM
As someone who was there at the Olympic show jumping medal ceremony, knows McLain and felt the emotion that filled that stadium, I am appalled at this thread.

McLain was overcome with emotion as the team came into the ring. I have a photo of him looking adoringly at Sapphire as he got off to get on the podium. McLain puts his heart and soul into representing his country and this medal was a very emotional one for him. To suggest anything different is complete bunk and ridiculous beyond belief.

This thread, combined with the horrific thread about Amy Tryon after the eventing, is a complete embarassment. All of you really need to think about the fact that the people you're talking about frequently do read these things, or at least hear about them.