PDA

View Full Version : Very costly mistakes of Isabelle and Anky



freestyle2music
Aug. 16, 2008, 05:39 PM
Just to give you an opinion :

We all have seen the mistakes both Anky and Isabelle made in the GPS.

Both movements involved could have scored 100 points

Anky received for this movement 19 points and Isabelle received 18 points.

Hope this explanation will help !

Theo

yaya
Aug. 16, 2008, 05:48 PM
Not even a little bit.

What on earth are you talking about?

dressagetraks
Aug. 16, 2008, 06:03 PM
I read that Isabell was given 0s by some judges on that - deservedly so. But the rest of test scored very highly - deservedly so.

As for Anky, even that mistake aside, I still think Steffen rode a better all over test today, and I still think that I have never seen Anky appear to enjoy a competition less than this one. But that's just my opinion. :)

PiaffeDreams
Aug. 16, 2008, 06:20 PM
Thanks Theo,

The numbers are always interesting. For anyone who competes, its very understood how you can have a quite good test on some days that scores low depending on where your errors fall exactly in the test and other days it doesn't hurt you so much. Nevertheless, you will get marked down where needed, but you can "earn points back" on another movement. It also speaks to the overall high quality of the rest of the tests that each woman put in. I'm anxious to see how they adjust for their rough spots for the freestyle. Either way, it makes for exciting sport in my book.

No other sport relies on another living creature with its own feelings, sensations, attitudes, and instincts. Its that art of communication and sometimes miscommunication that can happen to any rider at any time that makes it fascinating. There is a relationship there that must work. Not always so black and white, but the judge does HAVE to give a score.

sascha
Aug. 16, 2008, 06:31 PM
Not even a little bit.

What on earth are you talking about?
5 judges each with the ability to give a 10 out of 10.
That's 50 points right there.
Add the coefficient of 2 into it which doubles the mark each judge awards and that gives you 100 POSSIBLE points to be earned on that one movement that was ruined.

Anky received 19 out of a possible 100 or 19% on that movement.
Isabell received 18 out of a possible 100 or 18% on that movement.

I think Theo is trying to point out that neither of them were given any kind of a gift on that movement.

RunningwaterWBs
Aug. 16, 2008, 06:57 PM
As for Anky, even that mistake aside, I still think Steffen rode a better all over test today, and I still think that I have never seen Anky appear to enjoy a competition less than this one. But that's just my opinion. :)

She's not pregnant again, is she? I remember being amazed, in hindsight, at how well she did in Athens, considering that she was pregnant. I think she announced her pregnancy a month or so afterwards.

Ok, rumor-starting over....

Equibrit
Aug. 16, 2008, 06:58 PM
But - Anky ruined 3 movements.

chai
Aug. 16, 2008, 07:10 PM
Dressagetraks, I watched both of those tests and there were brilliant moments. The 0 was given when the horse spooked, almost went up and backed up very close to the edge of the arena but thankfully did not step over and out. She kept her cool and went on to ride a beautiful test, but the movement,,,I think it was supposed to be Piaffe (?)...was not done, hence the 0.
It was an amazing moment, and a powerful reminder that these really are incredible animals. To recover from that complete breakdown of communication and go on to have some beautiful movements is quite an accomplishment.

dressagetraks
Aug. 16, 2008, 07:19 PM
Oh, that's an interesting idea (totally hypothetical, of course ;)) on Anky. Hadn't thought of that possibility. I, too, was impressed how well she did at Athens. She just doesn't quite seem like herself to me, nothing I can quite put my finger on. Totally apart from the riding, I mean. But again, just my opinion, and I don't know her. No doubt 18 people closer to her are about to certify that nothing at all is bugging her, maybe even with clean vet reports. :D

And I totally agree on Isabell, Chai. Her scores - the 0 for that moment and the high ones for the rest of the test - were respectively deserved. And Isabell does get my nerves of steel award. :yes:

Kenike
Aug. 16, 2008, 07:23 PM
The days that dressage has been on have been hectic for me, so I've only been able to catch KKD's ride and the video of DM's ride. Is there video of these two? Considering it's appeared they've both been given gifts in the past (one moreso than the other, at least to my viewpoint), I'd really like to see.

Mardi
Aug. 16, 2008, 07:29 PM
In Anky's first test (the GP), she was riding rather oddly IMHO. Tilted back, not vertical at all. It was so unlike her. At the time, I posted a question about it, but no replies.

In the GPS, she was vertical most of the time.

But hey, she's a world champ, not me....

Hunter Princess
Aug. 16, 2008, 07:34 PM
If anyone has a link to the video, please post it-I heard about it but wasn't able to find anything on the NBC site.

Maryalden
Aug. 16, 2008, 07:37 PM
Mardi, I thought she looked a bit "parked" in the saddle as well. I know NOTHING about GP dressage, but her posistion didn't look right. She was better in the special, though. Anyone else have some insights?

slc2
Aug. 16, 2008, 10:05 PM
Sjeff said she rode the whole ride with the hand brake on.

It looked to me like the horse was getting too strong, and she was having to deal with it.

STF
Aug. 16, 2008, 10:16 PM
If I were riding out there next to these riders, I would feel I have the right to critique. But........... my backyard if far from there, so I will just clap and say........ "Good ride!"

staceyk
Aug. 16, 2008, 10:19 PM
Hi,

I'm no grand prix expert but I've certainly seen equivalent scoring at the lower levels -- horse rearing HIGH in the halt at x but delivering a super performance after that (with great gaits) scoring in the 70s.

Now here is a question. I don't recall the specifics of the ride, but remember Michelle Gibson having a similar problem with Peron many years ago at the Olympics? I think her scores tanked and we were all horrified as spectators. I was kind of expecting the same thing here, but isn't she still at or near the top in scoring?

I'm not suggesting anything untoward but maybe someone with a better memory can explain the difference...

Dressage_Diva333
Aug. 16, 2008, 10:27 PM
Can somebody fill me in? What movement did Isabell get a 0 on? And is there a video anywhere?

dressagetraks
Aug. 16, 2008, 10:28 PM
What I remember from 1996, IMHO only, there was more than that one really bad spot. Yes, the one really bad spot, spook, disobedience, but my interpretation then, what I felt watching is that Michelle was rattled a bit by that, and the remainder of the ride was not close to their best. My impression was that both horse and rider carried the memory of that mistake through the remainder of the 1996 test. Isabell had one mistake and recovered amazingly, keeping her composure.

And at that, Peron finished I believe 5th at the Olympics. There is no shame at all in finishing 5th at the Olympics, and I freely admit that Michelle is a far better rider than I am. Hats off to her for a great performance over those three tests. I loved seeing her and Peron go.

Edited to add: I just looked up my notes. I took notes while there on every single ride, all three days, impressions immediately afterwards before the next horse entered. Here is what I said about Peron's freestyle that day: "Rhythmic music. Tempi zigzag good. Passage half pass. Good changes in music for movements. Good first piaffe, but Peron spooked, hit wall, and stung himself in second piaffe. A few awkward hops, then Michelle got him back together and went on. Passage half pass other way, piaffe pirouette. Looked a bit conservative after error, but good ride, brilliant horse. Don't know what spooked him, but hitting the wall made it worse, I think. He looked stung for a step or two. Thanks for the memories, Michelle and Peron. 222.73, 73.25%."

Bats79
Aug. 16, 2008, 10:32 PM
Nobody got a 0. 0 means movement wasn't attempted and she did attempt it.

If you go to this page

http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C73DC/EQX001201.shtml#EQX001201

Then click on reports on the right

Then click on judges individual marks

Then click on the + next to each riders name, you will see the marks.

Helps to have a copy of the tests in front of you - which can be downloaded in pdf format from the FEI web site.

Anky got 3.0 4.0 4.0 4.0 4.0 (with x 2 coef) for trot half pass left in Special
Anky got 6.0 7.0 7.0 7.0 7.0 x 2 coef for submission

Isabelle got 1.0 1.0 2.0 1.0 2.0 but no coefficiant on that movement Piaffe
Isabelle got 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 x 2 coef for submission

The German judge gave only Briar and Balagur 7 for submission - every other horse got 6 - and the 25th placed French horse got a 5.

Lieslot
Aug. 16, 2008, 10:54 PM
Can somebody fill me in? What movement did Isabell get a 0 on? And is there a video anywhere?

If you go to the nbcolympics online videos : The individual GP special (dressage)
http://www.nbcolympics.com/equestrian/video/index.html
- Isabell's mishap is around 4:42:06
- Anky's mishap is around 4:08:13


I really feel for both riders. Nevertheless I think a brilliant performance of both. I can't copy them for sure, even if you were to put me on a Satchmo or a Salinero, I still wouldn't be able to get anywhere near the performance they showed....
I hope both riders can put the hiccup behind them, move on and focus on the next & final step.

Bats79
Aug. 16, 2008, 11:05 PM
Directions to individual marks are given above.

lalahartma1
Aug. 16, 2008, 11:24 PM
If you go to the nbcolympics online videos : The individual GP special (dressage)
http://www.nbcolympics.com/equestrian/video/index.html
- Isabell's mishap is around 4:42:06
- Anky's mishap is around 4:08:13


I really feel for both riders. Nevertheless I think a brilliant performance of both. I can't copy them for sure, even if you were to put me on a Satchmo or a Salinero, I still wouldn't be able to get anywhere near the performance they showed....
I hope both riders can put the hiccup behind them, move on and focus on the next & final step.

Is this the 'Top Individual Grand Prix Rides' vid?

yaya
Aug. 16, 2008, 11:28 PM
Nobody got a 0. 0 means movement wasn't attempted and she did attempt it.

Actually, Isabell got a couple of 0.0 on movement 17, the "proceed in passage" part after the piaffe. Interestingly, the US judge gave her a 6!

yaya
Aug. 16, 2008, 11:30 PM
Is this the 'Top Individual Grand Prix Rides' vid?

No, those time markers are for the video of all the rides, not just the top ones. (In other words, the video is 4 hours long) Go to the one marked "WATCH: Individual Grand Prix Special"

Beverley
Aug. 16, 2008, 11:49 PM
Sigh. Some of us think that, given that 'dressage' means 'training,' the obedience and precision of the horse, in communication with rider, should count for more than 'brilliance' or 'movement' or who-you-are.

You have 'one bad moment' in other judged disciplines, hunters, reining, western pleasure, and more- you are done. So it should be in my opinion at the highest levels of 'any' equine discpline, most particularly the one that is all about 'training.'

But then, I also think that a figure skater that falls down while attempting a quad shouldn't score higher than a figure skater that lands a triple correctly.

Bats79
Aug. 16, 2008, 11:58 PM
Actually, Isabell got a couple of 0.0 on movement 17, the "proceed in passage" part after the piaffe. Interestingly, the US judge gave her a 6!

Sorry you are correct

15 - 1.0 1.0 2.0 1.0 2.0 Piaffe (The cadence and regularity)

16 3.0 0.0 2.0 6.0 0.0 Transition Collected walk to piaffe (Submission and willingness)

17 - 7.0 7.0 7.0 7.0 7.0 Passage (The cadence and regularity)

Equibrit
Aug. 17, 2008, 10:47 AM
Sigh. Some of us think that, given that 'dressage' means 'training,' the obedience and precision of the horse, in communication with rider, should count for more than 'brilliance' or 'movement' or who-you-are.

You have 'one bad moment' in other judged disciplines, hunters, reining, western pleasure, and more- you are done. So it should be in my opinion at the highest levels of 'any' equine discpline, most particularly the one that is all about 'training.'

But then, I also think that a figure skater that falls down while attempting a quad shouldn't score higher than a figure skater that lands a triple correctly.

Unfortunately that approach would reward "averageness" over brilliance and that is clearly not what is required! Why would a rider ride closer to the edge unless it was rewarded.

freestyle2music
Aug. 17, 2008, 11:06 AM
I just wanted to point out that the topriders (read more experienced riders) created a extra dimension in riding. When one thing goes terribly wrong, they have the skills to grab the pieces together and manage to repair these mistakes within a tenth of a second. I see so many riders who give up after a lesser movement and continue suffering in then next five movements.

This is called experience and experience is something you can't learn, experience need's milleage.

Theo

slc2
Aug. 17, 2008, 11:07 AM
IT also allows horses without innate talent in one area to excel. And I think thats why the scoring is that way. It was set up originally to allow horses to win even if they did not have a superior piaffe and passage, by allowing them to accumulate points for transitions and in other movements.

Applecore
Aug. 17, 2008, 12:43 PM
<<Nobody got a 0. 0 means movement wasn't attempted and she did attempt it.>>

Isabell did get a 0 - two of them. Not for the piaffe, but for the piaffe-to-passage transition which was not really preformed because she was not in piaffe prior to passaging.

Mvmt 16 (the transition): 3-0-2-6-0 with the odd 6 from Gary Rockwell (not sure what his rationale was)

kkj
Aug. 17, 2008, 12:52 PM
<<Nobody got a 0. 0 means movement wasn't attempted and she did attempt it.>>

Isabell did get a 0 - two of them. Not for the piaffe, but for the piaffe-to-passage transition which was not really preformed because she was not in piaffe prior to passaging.

Mvmt 16 (the transition): 3-0-2-6-0 with the odd 6 from Gary Rockwell (not sure what his rationale was)

I feel Isabel did have the best ride, but some of the scores to me are ridiculous. Honestly how did Rockwell give her a 6 for that transition. And I think the 6s across the board for submission were too high. Satchmo was very disobedient. He did not just make a little mistake. Sure it only affected the piaffe and the transition to passage score but the submission should have been lower than a 6. The German judge gave most everyone a 6 for submission except for the Russian and Briar who got 7 and Lancet for some reason I can't figure out who got a 5. I just don't see how he could find Satchmo more submissive than Lancet.

Salinero is not as overall is not as even and fluid as he has been in the past. I think the breaks in the half pass and uneven extensions etc, signal a little stiffness in there. I too think Brentina was not right in the selection trials. I am not saying whistle these horses out, I am just saying they are not what I consider to be 100% sound. Anky looked better in this test and I always think she does a good job. In the first test Salinero was making her work very hard, it did look like the hand brake was on.

Kenike
Aug. 17, 2008, 01:20 PM
Thanks, Lieslot :yes:

Beverley
Aug. 17, 2008, 04:13 PM
Unfortunately that approach would reward "averageness" over brilliance and that is clearly not what is required! Why would a rider ride closer to the edge unless it was rewarded.


Well, yes, it would. Which begs the question. Is dressage supposed to be about the correct training of a horse, or about who can get the most moments of 'brilliance' between disobediences? I prefer the former, obviously the latter is the way things are in competitive dressage, which bears little resemblance to classical dressage.

wildswan
Aug. 17, 2008, 04:34 PM
Nobody got a 0. 0 means movement wasn't attempted and she did attempt it.

If you go to this page

http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C73DC/EQX001201.shtml#EQX001201

Then click on reports on the right

Then click on judges individual marks

Then click on the + next to each riders name, you will see the marks.


OMG, Don't know how you tracked this down, but a big THANKS for posting.

magnolia73
Aug. 17, 2008, 04:55 PM
I think they can get away with a poor movement because there are so many scores. If a rail in the hunters is as big of an error as missed tempi change- well that rail was at most 1/10 of your score (10 jumps). Anky and Isabel had one miss out of 38. 1/40th of the score (less than that with scores that get doubled and the scores at the end for gaits etc). It's just the way it works.

Honestly- to me, their mistakes were not huge, and amazingly the piaffe explosion did not carry any ongoing tension. Horse exploded, recovered - went on. Sure - knock some off for submission. But that is still quite an obedient horse. It's not like it ruined the test. Their horses look free and move freely. Most of the others make it look like work, including the American riders- now- their work was wonderful- but still lacked the flow and freedom of the the two top rides. It looked good- but it looked like work. The top two floated through the test.

dressagetraks
Aug. 17, 2008, 04:56 PM
About movement 16 and the American judge giving a 6, that movement says transition from collected walk to piaffe, not from piaffe to passage. It's for transition into piaffe, not out of piaffe. I agree there was no transition out of piaffe, unless piaffe to back/rear/spook is a movement. :D

But that movement was transition into piaffe. Clearly there is a difference of opinion in the judges on whether Satchmo entered piaffe fine (movement 16) and then spooked, resisted once in piaffe, or whether he never actually established piaffe before spooking/resisting.

I'm not casting a vote either way, but I could see both interpretations watching it, so I don't think the American judge's score of 6 is from left field. From the scores, he apparently thought the horse was already in piaffe before resisting and entered piaffe reasonably well (6). Two judges thought he did not establish piaffe well at all but did establish it sorta (2 and 3). Two judges thought he never established the transition into piaffe before the freakout (0).

Edited to add: Sorry, found another listing of the movements. I was relying on the info above post 184 that said transition from collected walk to piaffe was 16. It is transitions both into and out of, apparently. Does leave a question mark on the 6.

pattir7
Aug. 17, 2008, 05:05 PM
I thought both Isabelle and Anky had real brilliant moments.. I also thought they had moments of real 'non brilliance'. Doubt anyone would disagree on that point. I thought Isabelle's ride, overall was better...one major mistake... but the rest was pretty darned good. I thought Anky and Salinero looked tense pretty much throughout...with only moments of perceived relaxation.... I say perceived cause I sincerely doubt either had even a moment of REAL relaxation... And Anky/Salinero 'blew' three movements...pretty obviously... even a layperson would have seen it... Obviously why Isabelle came out a little on top. I agree with that... overall, a better ride.

However... all that said... I thought Steffan's and Courtney's rides were both, overall....better. No major mistakes...and nothing observable by a layperson. Courtney's ride was downright harmonious I thought. I truly thought there was nothing that horse would not do for her. I'm not saying that cause I'm in the US.. just an honest observation. Perhaps not as brilliant...but darned NICE.. with NO major mistakes. Not really even saying that Anky or Isabelle made any mistakes... the horse is what it is... on any given day...and nothing you can really do about it except what they did -- go on the best you can... and both did... but it happened...

309016
Aug. 17, 2008, 05:12 PM
I am no Grand Prix expert as well but I can say that they both fabulous rides based on this:

I loved the ride most because they were both able to take a bad situation and recover instantly from it and keep riding to movements that scored them 7-8-and 9's. I would expect nothing less from the two greatest dressage riders in the world. If it were me I would have been so freaked out my horse did something like that I would have had a complete melt down, and half-assed the rest of my test. So bravo to both for amazing recoveries.

This also shows that they are both human and that the horses are, well depending on what you want to call them, humans/horses too and that they are allowed to get frazzled and make mistakes (more the horses) because thats what they are prey animals! I applaud every one of those horses for going in that bright arena at night, with the humidity, and the crowds, and that scary as hell jumbo screen and still be able to preform at the level they did.

Overall I still say that they did have fantastic rides regardless of the mishaps that happened to both of them. I will be cheering for Anky to take the gold in the freestlye finals tomorrow! GO ANKY!

Kenike
Aug. 17, 2008, 05:15 PM
I have to agree that I thought Courtney and Steffen's rides were, overall, better. Anky's looked pretty tense and forced. Isabelle's looked a little tentative, a little better than Anky's, but still tense and tentative.

The mistakes? Isabelle's was BIG time bad! If it had been anyone else, I think they would've been scored even more harshly. Anky's was a generic whoops. Big one? Sure. But not nearly as big an :eek: moment. I'd venture to guess we've all done something similar.

I've never been one who likes the politics of sport. It exists everywhere, but I don't agree with it. Just because a name is big doesn't mean they deserve the better scoring. I'm pretty surprised at the scores seen here. My own personal opinion, and not one I need go further with.

It will be interesting to see how it all ends up.

Kenike
Aug. 17, 2008, 05:22 PM
one more thing to add:

My husband, who is somewhat horsey but doesn't know or fully appreciate movement, etc, was so overly impressed with CKD and Mythilus yesterday. He didn't know who they were, so no bias.

He kept saying things like "wow, look how fluid that horse is!" "It's like the horse and rider are one being," "do you see how flexible and relaxed his jaw is? How do you do that?" "I hope those two win, they're flawless and beautiful!"

When he later learned that they were part of the American team, coupled with Mythilus being a local horse, he was even more a fan for them. If a mostly untrained eye can see this, that should say how great they are.

He watched Isa and Anky's rides with me just a moment ago. He was much less impressed, mistakes aside. I didn't tell him anything, he just watched over my shoulder. "both those horses were tense. How can they be leading the horse I liked yesterday?"

I can't exactly explain it to him, but it's one of the things I love about him.

NRB
Aug. 17, 2008, 07:55 PM
what about the non halt at X at the end for Salerno? I guess that's the norm for them? Anky just salutes very quickly and then they go marching off. Did they get scored low for that? I followed the link provided and went to the GP scores but never found the break down of individual judges scores for the movements.

I agree that I loved CKD's rides I thought they were so fluid and to my eyes flawless. I guess that's one of the reasons I get fustrated with dressage.

evenstar
Aug. 17, 2008, 08:10 PM
with the odd 6 from Gary Rockwell (not sure what his rationale was

Applecore, I think that's the "safe six" - he was looking away and didn't see it! :lol::lol::lol:

Mardi
Aug. 17, 2008, 09:01 PM
The scoring is one of the many things I like about dressage: receiving a score for each required movement. And I love the "bonus points" (coefficients). And the immediate availablilty of scores and comments is invaluable.

I used to show western pleasure in a previous horse life. Although I had a top horse who went very well and won his share of championships, if there was a certain BNR in the class, she'd win. Always.

She even won a trail class although her horse crashed through an obstacle (my dad was irate).

Anyway, clearly all the judges at all the horse shows thought that her horse was better. Which is fine. But unlike dressage, those of us left behind in the lineup never knew WHY we didn't win or place higher, or why she was so great.

So we'd go home, and like idiots, try again the next weekend. :)

Mardi
Aug. 17, 2008, 09:06 PM
Oh ! Forgot to say...

Currently in western trail classes each obstacle is scored. A friend who is a scribe for trail classes at the bigger Arabian shows tells me that often a judge will score a horse, and then compare it to the scores he gave for other horses in the class.

If the judge has a horse he wants to win, he changes the scores, adds them up himself, and then hands in the scoresheet.

At least in dressage someone other than the judges adds up the scores....

Kenike
Aug. 17, 2008, 09:11 PM
Wow, Mardi....that's just wrong!!

And I totally agree with you on the scoring thing for dressage. It's a very good thing :yes:

egontoast
Aug. 17, 2008, 09:18 PM
Applecore, I think that's the "safe six" - he was looking away and didn't see it

haha I think you are right. I've scribed for judges like that !:lol:

dressagetraks
Aug. 17, 2008, 09:54 PM
I, too, like the dressage scoring system.

And you know, even from rides of mine that I thought were not fairly scored or judges I didn't like, I have almost always found at least one thing, usually more, in the comments or remarks that I could learn from and work to improve myself and my horse.

nero
Aug. 18, 2008, 12:22 AM
Wow, from some of the reports I would have thought Anky really bombed the GPS. But, gee, I'm going against popular opinion here and saying, having now just watched both GPS of her and Isabell, I would have scorded Anky higher. Yes the breaks in trot hp were there, but she still completed the movement, and well, and I think the rest of the test was better than Satchmo's, more oomph in the extensions, better p and p by far. I'm going to be sad if Anky does not win, but I fear she won't. Isabell's test, bar the throw down, was great also, but I think Anky maybe should have scored overall a bit higher.
(must say the you tube version I saw of Anky's test was a bit rough, so can't be 100% sure I didn't miss other issues with Anky's test, but it looked good to me)

superpony123
Aug. 18, 2008, 01:52 AM
i just finished watching (had it recorded) and must say i am not happy with anky being in 2nd for the GP. i really think steffen's test went much nicer. salinero was SOOOOOOOO tense, it really didnt look too good. sure, they might fit better in 3rd or 4th, but with steffens lovely test i really think they shouldve gotten a little bit higher score than anky. as for isabelle, i think her test was absolutely fantastic except for that little spooky refusing to do the piaffe (or was it passage? i dont recall exactly). such a lovely horse, great transitions, very flowing and definately not all tensed up like salinero was.

looking forward to see the freestyle.

anyways, i was definately expecting salinero to take the lead and go into 1st when satchmo refused/spooked, but the rest of isabelles test was so fantastic, i guess those extra 9's she had there gave her that extra 1%.

i am hoping isabelle will overtake anky in the freestyle as well. this will be an interesting face off!

Equa
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:00 AM
I suspect it looks quite different on TV than it does live. The images I saw of the camera angles (on the big screen, which would have been the same as for the live feed) were a bit odd. I didn't think Salinero was any hotter than Ravel - just better balanced and more fluid. There were certainly hotter, tighter horses than either of these in the GP!

With regard to tension/brilliance/submission (Beverley) - submission and good training is also demonstrated by the ability to recover calmness, throughness AND power following on from a wild "real horse" moment. If there is no real recovery, and the horse gets more uptight, then that should result in a low submission score.

And robotic, compliant horses can actually truly lack suppleness and submission, except it's harder for Joe Public to tell, unless they have a rhythm or line deviation.

If every deviance from dreary perfection was hammered in dressage as it apparently is in Hunters and WP, you'd probably find even more weirdness than the dreaded hyperflexion used to ensure compliance!

nero
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:03 AM
Its interesting how different people see things, I don't see that much tension in Salinero anymore, a little, but basically because's he's excited, and fired up, not because he is stressed, his 'tension' or exuberance or whatever, doesn't bother me at all. Horses for courses.

I think he used to have tension because he was a nervous nelly, but he's certainly settled considerably in the past three to four years.

But yes Satchmo is more chilled out, I like him too very much but in a different way. I think Sal's special, an uber pony because of his work ethic, charsima (can a horse have charisma) and talent. It's a very personal thing obviously.

I think Salinero's a bit like Michael Phelps, hyperactive, super talented, a bit fidgety and just so eager to work it's scary . This can turn people off or on. In people I don't like it, in horses I don't mind so much! :-)

Sabine
Aug. 18, 2008, 02:10 AM
i just finished watching (had it recorded) and must say i am not happy with anky being in 2nd for the GP. i really think steffen's test went much nicer. salinero was SOOOOOOOO tense, it really didnt look too good. sure, they might fit better in 3rd or 4th, but with steffens lovely test i really think they shouldve gotten a little bit higher score than anky. as for isabelle, i think her test was absolutely fantastic except for that little spooky refusing to do the piaffe (or was it passage? i dont recall exactly). such a lovely horse, great transitions, very flowing and definately not all tensed up like salinero was.

looking forward to see the freestyle.

anyways, i was definately expecting salinero to take the lead and go into 1st when satchmo refused/spooked, but the rest of isabelles test was so fantastic, i guess those extra 9's she had there gave her that extra 1%.

i am hoping isabelle will overtake anky in the freestyle as well. this will be an interesting face off!


rule number 1: a newcomer doesn't get first place, or second place....maybe third on a good day...(Steffen was a newcomer- in the sense that his horse was not seen there before...Courtney for that matter was a complete new-comer- (except for the 2 or 3 shows she competed in in Germany with a DIFFERENT, KNOWN horse...)
rule number 2: after the competitions starts- there is a certain pecking order...the top three are rarely displaced...
rule number 3: (said tongue in cheek...) the marks are often kind of 'set' and the judges have a hard time abandonning their plan....