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petitefilly
Aug. 16, 2008, 07:32 PM
I have to admire how she just carried on, as if nothing happened. She's really grace under pressure. She rode a lovely test.

That my dear is what makes a champion. Grace under fire. She went on like nothing happened and had a great ride. Jumbotron and all! :):):):):):)

It was a strange *oops* moment. Very strange.

mjhco
Aug. 16, 2008, 07:35 PM
I think if people took the time to understand how the technical aspects of dressage are scored and looked at the point distribution in the actual GP and GPS test, they might have a better understanding of the outcome.

On that note, I'd pay money to watch anyone tell Gary Rockwell in person that he robbed Courtney and Steffen by inflating Isabell's and Anky's scores. ;)

If that could happen I'll volunteer to sell tickets. I could finance my riding for a year.

petitefilly
Aug. 16, 2008, 07:39 PM
I think if people took the time to understand how the technical aspects of dressage are scored and looked at the point distribution in the actual GP and GPS test, they might have a better understanding of the outcome.

On that note, I'd pay money to watch anyone tell Gary Rockwell in person that he robbed Courtney and Steffen by inflating Isabell's and Anky's scores. ;)

:) I'd give money to see it too!! ANY TAKERS? He gave Anky a ten for her position! Why_why_why? I know someone will chime in that it was fair, and a good thing because she is perfect; but Jeese Louise, look at the judges___think man!

Give her an eight, and be done with it.

slc2
Aug. 16, 2008, 07:42 PM
What are you expecting Rockwell to do, go on Jerry Springer and cry about it?

Previous poster, I'd really love to be there when you telll Rockwell that he judged wrong. Can I bring my video camera? Can you eat corn on the cob with no front teeth?

Bats79
Aug. 16, 2008, 07:53 PM
I agree, with the exception of some tension is some of the other movements, however, my point was not that her ride was bad, like I said, I love the horse, my point was that if it had been anyone but her or Anky, it would have severely reduced the score. To me, that is disobedience, isn't that one of the major things dressage is all about? Same for Anky's ride. I am actualyl more upset about Anky's score than Isabel's, Anky's score was totally unfair.

At least I wasn't the only one to see some tension issues that followed. The first canter pirouette had no flexion and very little contact, the half pass was on a wing and a prayer. Isabelle was very, very careful not to ask too many questions of Satchmo for the majority of the rest of the test.

Which does show how talented she is, to nurse him round, and he is to have such expression and ability when not totally right but makes me question the marks a bit.

J. Turner
Aug. 16, 2008, 07:57 PM
Old system, yes. In the new skating scoring system there are so many different deductions possible, you can have a fall and still beat a clean skate with a lower degree of difficulty or more small errors in execution. (For reference, look at the ladies' skating from Torino 06--Sasha Cohen and Irina Slutskaya had more falls and errors than Fumie Suguri, the fourth-place finisher, in fact Sasha hit the ice twice, but both also had more difficult elements--higher spin values, higher grade of execution marks on footwork, etc. They racked up enough points that even with some serious errors, they still came out ahead of Fumie. The only "clean" program on the podium was gold, with Shizuka Arakawa and some argued she dumbed it down a little by taking out her triple-triples to avoid risking deductions for underrotating.)

Admittedly, many people now hate this, because while the average figure skating TV viewer (as opposed to obsessive fan) can't tell a level one spin from a level three, everybody knows what a butt plant looks like. They had to change a little how jumps were being called because some people (*cough*Jeff Buttle*cough*) were being given 0 or POSITIVE grades of execution for managing to rotate a quad in the air--even when they fell on the landing. That meant they still got points for a quad. (Now falls are downgraded.)

Dressage, IIRC, is scored in a similar way--you can have a major flaw on an element, but if everything else on the test has a high score, you could conceivably beat someone who was clean overall but whose scores were only middling.

I am a fellow obssessive skating fan who reads the CoPs! I wish Michelle could've skating long enough to tackle and conquer the CoP. No one can do a inside/outside spiral like her. The others wobble around. Of course she can't hold her skate over her head the entire program although that has nothing to do with skating. The fact that she probably has the deepest and best edges around didn't seem to matter. It's skating folks. Look at the skates!

Back on horses, I can't believe that Mythlius and CK-D didn't score better. It was so calm and accurate and beautiful and flowing. I'm not an upper level dressage rider but maybe her piaffe could be more active behind (?), but it certainly stayed on the spot more than anyone before her. Her pirouettes were beautiful. I wish we could've seen the break down of the scores. What did she do wrong? Her horse wasn't explosive on the verge of a nervous breakdown?

egontoast
Aug. 16, 2008, 08:00 PM
Isabelle was very, very careful not to too many questions of Satchmo for the majority of the rest of the test.


She asked him all the required questions , didn't skip anything,:lol:

and he delivered.:)

grayarabpony
Aug. 16, 2008, 08:33 PM
sorry folks, I should not have posted what I was thinking. :no:

Poor sportsmanship is just so very unpleasant. How's that? better?

Yes, that way you don't sound like such a jackass. :)

Oops, sorry, I guess I should not have posted what I was thinking. :no:

grayarabpony
Aug. 16, 2008, 08:35 PM
Isabelle was very, very careful not to ask too many questions of Satchmo for the majority of the rest of the test.



WTF

Equibrit
Aug. 16, 2008, 10:03 PM
Must be one of those right brain - left brain things. More likely no brain though?

Bats79
Aug. 16, 2008, 10:09 PM
WTF

You watch. He had much more to offer - he was still best but she was careful.

grayarabpony
Aug. 16, 2008, 10:23 PM
I've already seen the test, on TV. I did not think that she held back.

grayarabpony
Aug. 16, 2008, 10:29 PM
Must be one of those right brain - left brain things. More likely no brain though?

What are you talking about?

Roan
Aug. 16, 2008, 10:42 PM
You watch. He had much more to offer - he was still best but she was careful.

I agree.

I think the "spook" problem happened because she pushed him a little to hard -- and he said, 'DANG woman! I heard yah the first time, now back off and let me do my job!"

Then she did. She asked him the questions and backed off and let him answer his own way.

Above is purely speculation on my part and just the feeling I got watching.

Eileen

slc2
Aug. 16, 2008, 11:07 PM
I think that's cognitive dissonance at work.:D

Applecore
Aug. 17, 2008, 01:03 AM
Didn't have time to read everything, so don't know if this has been posted:

http://www.fei.org/olympics/results/2008Results/Documents/Dressage-Judges%20marks%20after%20GPS-16Aug08.pdf

It's a list of all the scores for all the movements by each judge - very informative. Very informative to look at whilst watching. You can absolutely see that EVERY judge severely marked down for the disobedience in IW's test (0-3 on the mvmt, 6s for submission across the board)...but she had enough high marks to make up for it. Like I think has been well-described, because, unlike hunter or WP, each movement is judged as a 'blank slate' its entirely possible for a horse to have 1 major disobedience and still do very, very well - happens regularly at all levels, although its especially easy at the upper levels because there are so many more movements and points in play.

Roan
Aug. 17, 2008, 01:40 AM
Interesting to note that in the collective marks, C3/Submission, AvG did not score much higher than IW did.

IW C3: 6, 6, 6, 6, 6
AvG C3: 6, 7, 7, 7, 7

Eileen

kkj
Aug. 17, 2008, 08:32 AM
Thanks for posting each judges scores for each movement. How the heck could Gary Rockwell give her a 6 when others gave her a 0? As far as I am concerned when the horse came above, almost reared and ran back that can't be above a 1. Also, to me the very deliberate disobedience there is much worse than Anky breaking in the half pass or Ravel making a couple little mistakes because he is young and green. I agree that the rest of IW test was amazing and she deserved all of those scores. However, I cannot see how the German judge could score all 4 of the top rides with a 6 for submission. That is to me totally bogus. Why did Bonaparte get a 6 from him? While that test did not have me at the edge of my seat with excitement I think it was better than a 6 in the submission department. Also he gave Lancet a 5 for submission. Trying to recall what I think was a very obedient and submissive test, what the hell did Lancet do to get a 5? That 5 should have gone to Satchmo. IW got the horse back in line due to her amazing tact and ability as a rider. That horse wanted to back right out of the ring and go home. The other horses' submission shortcomings were all a lot less deliberate.

Also, Salinero has some uneveness issues. He does look like he is more work to ride. His uneven extensions and breaking in the half pass is not just tension. I am not saying he should be whistled out for lameness, but he is not moving like he used to.

Ravel is my favorite but he is young and he made some mistakes. I don't think he was judged harshly I just think Anky and IW rides had some over generous scoring. Courtney as usual did a fabulous job. When she gets paired up with a horse with as much grace and talent as she has, I just think she might knock the others off the podium.

Sannois
Aug. 17, 2008, 09:59 AM
Honestly, this is discouraging. Anky's horse WAS uneven in some movements. Isabel was having a nice ride, I love Satchmo, but COME ON!!!! This is so dissapointing to watch. If ANYONE else's horse did that, you can bet the score would have been on the 60's. What crap.

Its the consitancy of the moves, and correctness.
they recovered well and went on with some lovely work.
I have had it happen to me and still score well. Have seen it with others as well.

grayarabpony
Aug. 17, 2008, 10:46 AM
What are movements 15 and 16, precisely? I know one of them is the piaffe.

Found it: http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Dressage/Organisers/Documents/GPS_E.pdf

15. G Piaffe 12 to 15 steps 10 The cadence and regularity.
16. G Proceed in passage
Transitions from collected walk to
piaffe and from piaffe to passage
10 Submission and willingness.

I liked Melanie Smith Taylor's commentary better yesterday than on previous occasions.

Roan
Aug. 17, 2008, 12:02 PM
. . .Also, to me the very deliberate disobedience there is much worse than Anky breaking in the half pass or Ravel making a couple little mistakes because he is young and green. I agree that the rest of IW test was amazing and she deserved all of those scores. However, I cannot see how the German judge could score all 4 of the top rides with a 6 for submission. That is to me totally bogus. Why did Bonaparte get a 6 from him? While that test did not have me at the edge of my seat with excitement I think it was better than a 6 in the submission department. Also he gave Lancet a 5 for submission. Trying to recall what I think was a very obedient and submissive test, what the hell did Lancet do to get a 5? That 5 should have gone to Satchmo. IW got the horse back in line due to her amazing tact and ability as a rider. That horse wanted to back right out of the ring and go home. The other horses' submission shortcomings were all a lot less deliberate. . . .

The submission score is not about subordination, but obedience, and obedience is only *part* of the submission score. The horses are not supposed to be robots, but willing partners. Part of the score is whether or not the horse accepts the bridle and is on the bit. MANY of those horses are not on the bit and most are evading and behind the vertical. They are being scored down for that and it looks like the German judge is very strict, good for him!

IW's horse is not BTV, Salinero is ALWAYS behind the vertical. Lancet went BTV quite a few times, most noticeably in the extended trot. In the extended trot you want the horse's nose pointing where the feet are going to land -- in front of the verticle. Bonaparte went BTV a few times as well, again with the extended trot.

I'm not defending the judging, just trying to make things clearer -- for myself, mainly. Once I started comparing the performances and scores against the FEI rules things started to make sense to me.

Above are just my observations. I'm probably missing a lot of stuff. Like there was something else "wrong" with Bonaparte's ride that I just can't put my finger on.

Eileen