Is this scenario possible in eventing?

[tidy rabbit]

Would a BNT eventing trainer allow a first time eventer to start out in the 3'7" division?

Would it be allowed for an experience jumper rider on a proven event horse?

Would it be allowed for a jr rider who has never evented before but is riding an experienced horse?

[bambam]

no- there are qualifications for that division (prelim). The qualification are minimal IMO but that cannot be your first eventing outing

[Highflyer]

You must do four Trainings (3'3) to qualify for Prelim (3'7). At this point there is no qualification for Training.

[tidy rabbit]

Sweet! Thanks you guys! That's what I needed to know!

[Janet]

But, on the other hand, a rider who has done 4 successful Training HT could take a horse at Prelim who has never been to a horse show or HT of any kind. The only qualification requiremetns for Prelim are RIDER qualifications. There are no HORSE qualifications. And I am pretty sure they didn't change that.

[SLR]

Oh Tidy Rabbit, methinks you've caught someone trying to blow smoke up your patootie. :eek:

[tidy rabbit]

Oh Tidy Rabbit, methinks you've caught someone trying to blow smoke up your patootie. :eek:

It wasn't my patootie. I heard a rumor that there is someone around who is going to do just this... compete at 3'7" when they should be doing the BN, based on what I've seen. I said it can't be so! No trainer would allow it.

[Ajierene]

It wasn't my patootie. I heard a rumor that there is someone around who is going to do just this... compete at 3'7" when they should be doing the BN, based on what I've seen. I said it can't be so! No trainer would allow it.

It doesn't look like a matter of trainer 'allowing' it, but the USEA rules allowing it.

Two different animals.

[SLR]

Sorry, What I meant was, there are a lot of people who over state their qualifications, what they've done, etc. Or they lead others to believe they have done more than they have. I guess that's prevalent in all the disciplines. Recently saw an ad at a local tack store for eventing riding lessons " FEI Young Rider available for lessons" I know for a fact this kid has yet to finish a BN course. Also many eventers, many, many go at it with no trainers. and of course there are a lot of scary trainers out there, who really don't know what they are doing.

[tidy rabbit]

Okay, so you could do 4 HTs at training level and then go on to Prelim. Does that mean you had to place, finish?

If I did 4 HTs at training level and fell off in each one of them do I get a DNF or would that still count towards letting me enter at Prelim level?

[tle]

Nope. You have to Complete in order for them to count. And since now falling = E... that wouldn't work.

being in this area, you have piqued my curiosity!! :-) *waves at tidy rabbit!*

[Jazzy Lady]

I think you have to complete with no more than 20 xc jump faults in each.

[Mudroom]

I think you have to complete with no more than 20 xc jump faults in each.

this year. Next year it is much tougher. I think all or most have to be 0 jump penalties on XC.

[Janet]

Okay, so you could do 4 HTs at training level and then go on to Prelim. Does that mean you had to place, finish?

If I did 4 HTs at training level and fell off in each one of them do I get a DNF or would that still count towards letting me enter at Prelim level?
Not at all

It is all in Appendix 3.

THIS year:
Completion, as noted below, means having completed the entire Horse Trial,
and it means having completed the cross-country test with no more than one disobedience.
Exceptions to the qualifications noted below may only be approved by the
Credentials/Grading Committee.
...
1.4 PRELIMINARY (P) - Open to competitors from the beginning of the calendar year of
their 14th birthday, on horses five years of age or older. The competitor must have
completed four Horse Trials at the Training Level or higher.

It gets considerably stricter for next year.

[SLR]

Jazzy Lady is correct. You must complete 4 with no more than one disobedience on the XC portion. I'm with tle.... inquiring minds want to know.:lol:

[Sightunseen]

I find this amusing because I had a jr rider tell me that she was just going to start out her horse at Prelim because they were just that good, not really a cocky kid, just delusional, and when I tried to explain that you had to qualify for Prelim she told I did not know what I was talking about. :lol:

[WeDoItAll]

However, remember that these rules are for recognized horse trials. At least in our area there are many more unrecognized than recognized and I believe they "could" ride in an unrecognized at Prelim as their first event. That would be very stupid ... but it "could" be done.

[deltawave]

Well, delusional adolescents are pretty much everywhere. :)

[tidy rabbit]

Nope. You have to Complete in order for them to count. And since now falling = E... that wouldn't work.

being in this area, you have piqued my curiosity!! :-) *waves at tidy rabbit!*

I can only say that I have friends all over the country and that this person I hear rumours about is not in Ohio. However, it is funny because my guess was that the person was dillusional, and I'm so glad to hear I was right. YA for ME!

tle, I'll send you a PM... ;)

[bip]

However, remember that these rules are for recognized horse trials. At least in our area there are many more unrecognized than recognized and I believe they "could" ride in an unrecognized at Prelim as their first event.

Wow, you guys have unrec prelim? I've never seen higher than training (except I think I saw a CT with prelim).

[LSM1212]

Wow, you guys have unrec prelim? I've never seen higher than training (except I think I saw a CT with prelim).

The CT I'm going to at the end of the month has Prelim. Not that we are anywhere NEAR doing something like that (we will be doing Starter and Baby Beg Novice). :D

[tidy rabbit]

The CT I'm going to at the end of the month has Prelim. Not that we are anywhere NEAR doing something like that (we will be doing Starter and Baby Beg Novice). :D

So what is the difference between combined training and eventing and horse trials?

Dumb questions I know, but I don't know.

[tle]

So what is the difference between combined training and eventing and horse trials?

pretty much teh letters used to spell the words is about the only difference.

Eventing is a long standing name and covers the sport now... from beginners though Olympic/WEG.

Horse Trials are those competitions that are not designated as 3-day events by the USEF/FEI. The biggest difference is (used to be when it comes to the upper levels) that 3-days have roads & tracks, steeplechase and a much longer XC course. Thanks to the FEI and their "short format" wisdom, the difference now is only the longer XC course.

Combined Training was I believe only a US nomenclature for the sport. It was officially replaced with Eventing a few years ago when USCTA became USEA.

There are no dumb questions. :-) Ok, well, maybe there are, but i can't imagine anything you'd be asking woudl be dumb.

[Ajierene]

So what is the difference between combined training and eventing and horse trials?

Dumb questions I know, but I don't know.

Horse Trials could be considered the stepping stone to eventing. They have all three phases, but not the length of time. When the long format was in use, it was a way to get people used to how the event was run as well as cross country jumping. They would then move on to the long format three days after training to add in the ability to do the steeplechase and roads and tracks. These days eventing is like a horse trials over three days, with vetting and jogging being the only real difference.

Combined training is usually just Dressage and Stadium jumping. They are great for practice and great for smaller venues to put on. At some venues, they offer a combined training show with the option to school cross country on the same day. This is great for someone who can jump height in a ring and has some experience in dressage but may be a bit leery about cross country jumping to get out and school cross country in more of a show environment. They can go, compete in the two phases, then school cross country with the hub bub of show around them.

Combined Training is also the term for many associations that host dressage, jumping, eventing shows and combinations of any of the above. It helps centralize calenders, which can generate more business for farms. They have a central location for advertisement and can see if there are any other shows on that same weekend and how that may effect the attendance at their show.

[Ibex]

There's another couple variations to CTs as well, including the "Short Course" (dressage + stadium/XC combo), and another variation where you can pick which level you ride at for each of the phases, again as a schooling opportunity. Neither of these are recognized of course, but they tend to be fun shows!

[Hannahsmom]

[quote=Ajierene;3446177} Combined training is usually just Dressage and Stadium jumping. [/quote]

You mean combined TESTS. :) Those are two phases and normally dressage and show jumping although they don't have to be those phases.

Combined training is what someone said earlier, a previous name used for what is now called eventing. It used to be the USCTA United States Combined Training Association, and now it is the USEA United Stated Eventing Association.

[tidy rabbit]

There are no dumb questions. :-) Ok, well, maybe there are, but i can't imagine anything you'd be asking woudl be dumb.
HAHA you give me way too much credit!

Thank for the info... and the history.

[Ajierene]

You mean combined TESTS. :) Those are two phases and normally dressage and show jumping although they don't have to be those phases.

Combined training is what someone said earlier, a previous name used for what is now called eventing. It used to be the USCTA United States Combined Training Association, and now it is the USEA United Stated Eventing Association.

Thanks for the clarification. I have often seen the shows you mentioned called 'combined training shows', so there might be a bit of confusion out there.

[tidy rabbit]

Is there ever XC and Showjumping and no dressage? That would be my kind of CT. ;)

[bip]

You mean combined TESTS. :) Those are two phases and normally dressage and show jumping although they don't have to be those phases.

Yes, when I said CT, I meant a combined test.

[Janet]

So what is the difference between combined training and eventing and horse trials?

Dumb questions I know, but I don't know.
For many decades- once it stopped being "The Military"- "Combined Training" was the name of the SPORT. It included "Combined Tests" (any two phases), "Horse Trials" (Dressage, Cross Country and Stadium, but no Steeplechase nor Roads and Tracks), and "Three Day Events" (all phases, including Steeplechase and Roads and Tracks). (Though the distinction was sometimnes a bit blurred. While Badminton and Burghley were definitely "Three Day Events", their official name says "Horse Trials". And sometimes the term "Three Day Eventing" was used to apply to the entire sport.)

About 10 years ago, the FEI decided to change the name of the sport to "Eventing". That was when the USCTA changed to USEA.

And then with the advent of the "CIC" and the "CCI without", the distinction between "Horse Trials" and "Three Day Event" became even less distinct.

[Janet]

Is there ever XC and Showjumping and no dressage? That would be my kind of CT. ;)
Yes. You can even have a Combined Test with two (different) cross country tests- though I have never seen it.

The problem with "all jumping" CT is that you tend to have lots of ties.

[tidy rabbit]

Yes. You can even have a Combined Test with two (different) cross country tests- though I have never seen it.

The problem with "all jumping" CT is that you tend to have lots of ties.

Oh, yes, I can see how that might be a problem.

[DiablosHalo]

Sorry, What I meant was, there are a lot of people who over state their qualifications, what they've done, etc. Or they lead others to believe they have done more than they have. I guess that's prevalent in all the disciplines. Recently saw an ad at a local tack store for eventing riding lessons " FEI Young Rider available for lessons" I know for a fact this kid has yet to finish a BN course. Also many eventers, many, many go at it with no trainers. and of course there are a lot of scary trainers out there, who really don't know what they are doing.

Funny!! Or... not so funny to some people! We have A LOT of that around here. "Instructors" that have "competed" at prelim/Int/Adv level-- but if you've been around long enough and you are in the same 'circuit'- you know they only completed Training years ago bc of the saintly horse they were on, let alone even ride an upper level course. Yet the new-to-eventing youngsters don't know any better and embrace these instructors as if they were (insert BNT here)!

[tidy rabbit]

Funny!! Or... not so funny to some people! We have A LOT of that around here. "Instructors" that have "competed" at prelim/Int/Adv level-- but if you've been around long enough and you are in the same 'circuit'- you know they only completed Training years ago bc of the saintly horse they were on, let alone even ride an upper level course. Yet the new-to-eventing youngsters don't know any better and embrace these instructors as if they were (insert BNT here)!

I have lots of letters in my name, could that make me a BNT?

[LSM1212]

The CT I'm going to is Dressage and Stadium Jumping. The levels are: Starter, Baby Beg Novice, Beg Novice, Novice, Training and Prelim. That's all we see around here for CT's. Just trying to get Stitch and I out and about w/ the Dressage and SJ. Still not 100% sure on that XC thing. :D

Here is the table:

Starter: 2007 USDF Intro Test B; SJ - 18" max --- not timed
Baby Beg Novice: 2006 USEF Beg Novice Test B; SJ - 2' max --- not timed
Beginner Novice: 2006 USEF Beg Novice Test B; SJ - 2' 6" max @ 300 mpm
Novice: 2006 USEF Beg Novice Test B; SJ - 2' 11" max @ 315 mpm
Training: 2006 USEF Training Test B; SJ - 3' 3” max @ 320 mpm
Preliminary: 2006 USEF Preliminary Test B; SJ - 3' 7" max @ 325 mpm[/FONT]


The mini-trial I did a few weekends ago was all 3 (Dressage, SJ and XC). But not sanctioned or anything... a schooling show. We have a few schooling mini-trials in our area... usually don't go above Beg Novice. Some include a CT if you'd rather do that and not do XC.

And then HT's. At the KHP and other locations. I think those are over 2 days. You'll do 2 phases in one day, and it depends on the level which 2 you do and then the other phase the other day.

Is that about right?

[asterix]

And then HT's. At the KHP and other locations. I think those are over 2 days. You'll do 2 phases in one day, and it depends on the level which 2 you do.

Is that about right?

Horse trials are all 3 phases, always running dressage first. That's about all you can say since there seems to be considerable variation around the country. Here in MD/VA, the vast majority of horse trials run all three phases on one day, often putting SJ right before XC (as in 20 minutes apart -- you basically go straight from one to the other). Occasionally, especially at Prelim and up, you may have 2 phases one day and XC the next day.

But I know in other parts of the country horse trials for all levels may run 2 or 3 days. It's funny, because folks that do that say they like the "vacation" -- here in Area II we grumble when we have to go back a second day -- much more expensive, much more time consuming! We like to drive an hour or so, ride dressage at 9:30, SJ at 11 and XC at 11:20, pulling out for home by 12 :D

[LSM1212]

Horse trials are all 3 phases, always running dressage first. That's about all you can say since there seems to be considerable variation around the country. Here in MD/VA, the vast majority of horse trials run all three phases on one day, often putting SJ right before XC (as in 20 minutes apart -- you basically go straight from one to the other). Occasionally, especially at Prelim and up, you may have 2 phases one day and XC the next day.

But I know in other parts of the country horse trials for all levels may run 2 or 3 days. It's funny, because folks that do that say they like the "vacation" -- here in Area II we grumble when we have to go back a second day -- much more expensive, much more time consuming! We like to drive an hour or so, ride dressage at 9:30, SJ at 11 and XC at 11:20, pulling out for home by 12 :D

Ooopssss... I was typing really fast as I was getting ready to leave work to go ride! I forgot to add the 3rd phase. Just added to my post.

I like the "all 3" in one day theory too. :D

[ThirdCharm]

The Ark in Monroe, NC used to, and Jumping Branch Farm in Aiken, SC still does, run Preliminary horse trials which include xc over courses used in USEA competitions. Sweet.

I know someone whose mom told a friend that they were going to be starting out at Prelim. :-D

Jennifer

[Whisper]

When is the CT you're doing, LSM? :D

BTW, some of our local unrecognized Horse Trials also allow a "choose-your-own-adventure" type of CT. Some have ribbons for each phase, others only give awards if you do all three phases at a particular level, but you could do Novice dressage, BN stadium, and Elementary XC if you feel that is the most appropriate combination for the horse/rider combination. Or, you can do two dressage or two stadium or two XC phases (at different levels).

[LSM1212]

When is the CT you're doing, LSM? :D

BTW, some of our local unrecognized Horse Trials also allow a "choose-your-own-adventure" type of CT. Some have ribbons for each phase, others only give awards if you do all three phases at a particular level, but you could do Novice dressage, BN stadium, and Elementary XC if you feel that is the most appropriate combination for the horse/rider combination. Or, you can do two dressage or two stadium or two XC phases (at different levels).

Sat, Aug. 30th. :D I'll be doing Starter and Baby Beg Novice. :) So in 2 weeks. I just schooled the Beg Novice Test B Dressage test yesterday. :) Just wanted to make sure we could do the 2 canter circles. LOL He did fine. We won't be perfect but that's okay. I just want to get out there and shake the nerves and get some experience. :winkgrin:

I'd love to do the combo trial. Getting to pick different levels for each phase. That's a great idea. That way if you aren't 100% ready for one of the phases in a certain level, you can choose a lower level but still get the chance to show in the upper level for the other phases. :)