Australian System

[denny]

Everybody knows how the Germans do it. "It" being win, win, win, decade after decade, (except for the 2 world wars), but what`s up with those Aussies?

Who knows about their system? Do they do their training/competing mainly in Australia, do they spend half the year in England, do they breed their own horses, or buy Irish, like every other country does, who`s got the inside scoop?

I know they have a rep for being tough and wild, sort of like Canadians without the beards, but what do they put in their drinking water? Assuming they ever drink water.

[LisaB]

Well, Denny, they have been known to be able to drink anyone under the table. And they did start out as a penal colony ...
:D

[Tootsie]

The Aussie based horses train and compete in Australia all year round. There is a lot of funding that comes from being on the elite lists that allows riders to get to the big events so people like Megan Jones and Sonja Johnson, who dont live in the center of evening in NSWs, are able to get out and compete against the rest of the country. The coaches travel around all year to give clinics to the riders on the listed horses. They follow the horses soundness very closely as well. I also find the system to be a bit less political. There are certain set scores you have to achieve to get on the elite list, and you cannot be left off because someone on the selectors may or may not like you.

But I think the biggest thing is that they are tough. It takes a lot of guts to move to England and set up a business there amoung the best but it also takes a lot of guts to remain in Australia and still be able to come out and do so well on the world stage. And yes, most of them can drink everyone else under the table. :-)

[tangledweb]

The Australian "system" is very different to the German system, at least in part by not being much of a system. It is also very different to the current American system, although perhaps less different to America a few decades ago.

Australia has a very strong pony club eventing scene relying mostly on cheap or volunteer instructors and cheap ponies and cheap ex race horses. There is very little emphasis on jump equitation, but the people who in their late teens are showing promise and taking it seriously and start seeking out professional, formally qualified instructors and purpose bred horses they have already spent a number of years training their own horses from scratch, riding in open country and staying on.

You definitely need good instruction to make it to the top, but for cross country specifically, I think it might be easier to take a kid who can sit bucks and ride rough terrain and teach them the equitation they need for bigger courses than it is to take a kid with perfect equitation who has never ridden outside a groomed ring and teach them to relax and stick.

Course design is much more technical too. Because lower level courses have a progression of their own they get technical much earlier. Pony club will go from 18" to 3'6", so you'll see a double or a coffin at 2', a jump into water and apexes at 2'6" and so on.

Australia has a different horse culture to America anyway. Less money, less formality. Australians are much more likely to buy green horses and keep them on self care board and fumble through, than buy a made horse, pay somebody else to care for it, and pay a coach to hold their hands at events. I think that flows on to an ability to keep horses sound as they move up levels, although I suspect part of that is just a side effect of not keeping horses in stalls.

I don't know that Australia is a great place to try to make it as a horse professional. There is just not as much money flowing around, which I think is why you see people like Boyd here. I think it is a great place to be a kid without much money and a scruffy pony though.

[Elghund2]

I'm amazed at the amount of hand-wringing going on over one Olympic games results. Here is a quick totalling of medals for the WEG (all) and Olympics (eventing) since 1990 (G/S/B/T):

Germany 21 11 17 49
USA 10 12 12 34
FRA 9 12 4 24
Neth 6 7 6 19
UK 4 9 6 15

Notice that the Australians don't make the top 5. I'm not dissing them but their not there. When you look at the competitions and their locations with the exception of the Australian games and the Atlanta games, the competitions have been held in Europe. That is a distinct advantage to the Europeans.

It all runs in cycles. IN two years or fours years we may be on top again.

[tangledweb]

Here is a quick totalling of medals for the WEG (all) and Olympics (eventing) since 1990 (G/S/B/T)


Huh? I don't think Denny was suggesting that Australia was a country with a huge amount to copy in dressage and showjumping.

How does your tally look if you only include eventing?

[LisaB]

Elghund,
They kick everyone's ass in eventing. We're honing in on that. When they come here to the US or over to Europe, everyone holds their breath because another rider from Oz is coming. We better watch it.

[LisaB]

I posted over on the fugly board because there are a couple of Aussies there. And they have a rather widespread population across all disciplines. Here what one person wrote:

As I've said before I don't consider myself an eventer by any stretch of the imagination. But I worked for a short time for Gill Rolton (double team gold medal eventer), know a fair few eventing people and follow the discipline because I love it.

My opinion (and bear in mind I'm generalising here) - most kids that go on to be really good competitive riders start at pony club. Maybe half of pony clubbing Aussie kids have horsey parents and the other half are just kids that whinge till they get a pony. It's reasonably inexpensive to buy and paddock keep horses here and lots of people own land, so parents will often give in and get a pony for the kids. If the kid's lucky the pony will be a reasonable one and not run them under too many trees, bolt too many times or head plant them too often into the dirt. But it's the luck of the draw often! They then start going to pony club and learn a little there. The rest of the time they hoon around the countryside jumping whatever gets in their way. There are other kids that get into hacking/showing - which is sorta like hunters but with no fences. Often those kids don't go to pony club (lots do though I spose) but instead compete at hack shows nearly every weekend. And then there are a few riding schools where kids might learn to ride but (around me anyway) there's not really many around.

So if the kid has managed to get a reasonable horse/pony and has fun at showing or pony club they will be competing and getting better. They may have a lesson once a week/fortnight/month if their parents can afford it. But often kids just have the group lessons they get at pony club. As kids get older and are maybe still doing well and still interested (ie don't forget about horses when they discover the opposite sex) they may start lessons or get some more regularly. Most often you agist at one place or have the horses at home and have to float to lessons. You'll have a 45 min -1 hour lesson then say thanks and float home and not talk to the instructor again till your next lesson. People swap instructors fairly frequently too.

As people get up through the ranks they will seek out qualified coaches to help them. We have a training scheme for coaches to become approved by the EFA (Equestrian Federation of Australia) called the NCAS (National Coaching Accreditation Scheme). There are three levels. Level 1 coaches are the lowest level and are sort of general lower rider level coaches. Level 2 coaches have done more training and (I think - I'm a bit vague on exact details and differences between the levels) often specialise in a particular discipline. Level 3 coaches are the top level coaches that train the lower level coaches and specialise in jumping, dressage etc (or both if they pass the exams). Once again though, even when you are fairly high up, you will probably just have a coach that you see once a week/fortnight/month. The rest of the time you ride on your own. For those lucky enough to have horsey parents they also have them to help and guide them.

It's very very rare to have an instructor/coach work a horse and then a rider just get on for the event/class. Here the rider does all the work -including the feeding, grooming, mucking out etc. No one (not many?) have the funds available to be able to pay for someone to do that stuff - if you want to ride you have to do it yourself. There is bugger all money to be made here in the horse industry. Even the really top people are constantly struggling to make ends meet (unless they have another income).

When a rider starts doing really well consistently they may come to the notice of the EFA and get on a state squad and get a little funding (and I mean a little!). If they do well they will often start looking for sponsors. Businesses like saddlers and feed manufacturers might sponsor a rider through products and some cash but there's usually not much in it. Definitely not many would get enough sponsorship to be able to live on it. They may have to take horses in for training (breaking in and/or a couple of months work then hand back to the owner), teach or have another non-horsey job to provide the funds to keep competing. Riders that do very well may get offered sponsorship in the form of horses to ride/compete as their own. So, as I'm too chicken to event myself, I could live vicariously through a rider by buying a horse and giving it to someone to compete on.

So that's it really. We do have lessons here but it's just that it's a bit hit and miss and sounds different than your system of finding a barn and a trainer to train under everyday/week (I may have the wrong impression?). Our 'system' (if you can call it that) does produce very independent riders. It's a good system for the eventers but not such a good one to produce really good dressage and showjumping people! We're getting there though and our dressage is definitely improving (can't comment on SJ as I don't follow it). This is the first games ever that we've been able to qualify a team in the dressage.

Re the type of horses we ride. In the past most eventers/SJ'ers and dressage horses were OTTBs. There are definitely more 'purpose bred' horses coming through now though - WBs/Irish Sporthorses/purpose bred TBs. There is a huge interest and passion here amongst breeders to produce excellent horses rather than 'making do' with track rejects - and it's showing in how we're doing!

Wow what a ramble - sorry for the novel. I got a bit carried away!

[bludini]

Everybody knows how the Germans do it. "It" being win, win, win, decade after decade, (except for the 2 world wars), ...

ROF LOL:lol:


Love You!







really.

[denny]

Dang, I forgot about the convict part. That explains it.

[snoopy]

A quick off topic moment:

A friend of mine (who is british) recently went to OZ on business....he was questioned at immigration...the final question was "any criminal convictions"

his reply:

No I am sorry I did not think I still needed one to get into the country.


Immigration was NOT ammused.


I of course pissed myself laughing.

[tangledweb]

Dang, I forgot about the convict part. That explains it.

Does Georgia have a strong eventing community too?

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

Did the convicts go over there and the lawyers flock here? I'm not trying to set up the lawyer jokes, really - but it seems like fear of lawsuits has and has had a huge effect on the sport here in a way that sounds pretty absent and possibly laughable over there...

[tangledweb]

it seems like fear of lawsuits has and has had a huge effect on the sport here in a way that sounds pretty absent and possibly laughable over there...

No, unfortunately fear of lawsuits is very prevalent in Australia. There was a specific incident about 4 years ago where the single insurance company insuring horse sport organizations decided to get out of it, and the whole industry was in danger.

Edit: 30th of June 2002 was the crisis date where insurance policies that were not able to be renewed ended.

[Gnep]

snoopy please give a warning next time.

But one interesting point from the Aussis, when I gave riding lessons over here for the first time, I was surprised that it was expected of me to coach at shows, too.
That was completly knew to me.
I always felt, that this dependency would prevent the riders to gain their own experiance and does not teach them how to get the job done by them selfs

[pegasusmom]

Jeannette - I know the Polocrosse Association of Australia almost lost their insurability a few years back due to the rough play/threat of litigation - they are one of the very few PLX governing bodies that has a "quarter-swing" rule on the books now, even if they don't enforce it.

In my book. . . . it's 'cause you can buy rum and coke in six packs.

Andrew can't wait to go back.

[denny]

Everyone is saying the US riders have to go more to Europe. Do the Aussies do that, or have they figured out how to prepare well enough at home?

[bludini]

A quick off topic moment:

A friend of mine (who is british) recently went to OZ on business....he was questioned at immigration...the final question was "any criminal convictions"

his reply:

No I am sorry I did not think I still needed one to get into the country.


Immigration was NOT ammused.


I of course pissed myself laughing.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Quote. Of. The. Day...hands down winner.

[bludini]

The Aussie based horses train and compete in Australia all year round. ...
The coaches travel around all year to give clinics to the riders on the listed horses. They follow the horses soundness very closely as well. ...

I also find the system to be a bit less political. There are certain set scores you have to achieve to get on the elite list, and you cannot be left off because someone on the selectors may or may not like you.



Everyone is saying the US riders have to go more to Europe.

Well obviously, we should be going to Australia. The people seem funner and more inviting anyway.

Said a little tongue in cheek, but a little seriously too.

[tangledweb]

Everyone is saying the US riders have to go more to Europe. Do the Aussies do that, or have they figured out how to prepare well enough at home?

It is not common.

At the very top level, placing at Badminton is one way of making sure selectors see you, but if you look at this Australian Olympic team, the Fredricks spent time in Europe in the leadup, as did Shane Rose. The EI outbreak made overseas tours more popular this time anyway, as the local circuit was shut down for basically a whole season.

Sonja Johnson was on the WEG team in 2006, but I think is her only European performance.

Megan Jones I don't think had ever competed further away than New Zealand before this Olympics and she was the team's highest placing rider (4th).

[snoopy]

It is not common.

At the very top level, placing at Badminton is one way of making sure selectors see you, but if you look at this Australian Olympic team, the Fredricks spent time in Europe in the leadup, as did Shane Rose. The EI outbreak made overseas tours more popular this time anyway, as the local circuit was shut down for basically a whole season.

Sonja Johnson was on the WEG team in 2006, but I think is her only European performance.

Megan Jones I don't think had ever competed further away than New Zealand before this Olympics and she was the team's highest placing rider (4th).



The fredricks are based in UK...lucinda is british born

Andrew is based at Gatcombe UK

David Green (although not an active team memeber) is based in UK

Matt Ryran is based in UK

Phillip Dutton (though rides for US) is based in America

Paul Tapner is based in UK



I would seem that they balance in house riders with those abroad.

[Tootsie]

Actually, Megan competed at the World Cup in 2003 I believe, along with Badminton in 2004 in the hopes of making that Olympic team. She was also a member of the 2006 WEG team that won the Bronze Medal there. Shane only went to England in 2006 after he fell at WEG but since then he has been based at home and preparing from there. I also believe that Sonja had been to Europe for the World Cup before in addition to WEG 2006.

As I heard said once, to win a gold medal, you dont have to be the best rider in the world. You just have to be the best rider on the day. I have found the Australians to be very very down to earth and riding into the Olympic dressage arena is much the same as riding into one back home. They dont let nerves get the best of them and they work as a team. They get the best coaches they can get their hands on (they did drag Harry Bolt out of retirement) but also reconize that the riders know their horses the best and listen to what they say about them. The horse always comes first.

I dont believe the American riders need to go to Europe to compete in order to be good enough against the rest of the world. The Aussies proved that when everyone was going on and on about how the Fredricks were going to win medals but two out of the three scores that counted on the team came from Australia based riders. The American system of training just needs some major overhauls on coaching and funding that will allow the riders to compete the best in their home country.

[snoopy]

Actually, Megan competed at the World Cup in 2003 I believe, along with Badminton in 2004 in the hopes of making that Olympic team. She was also a member of the 2006 WEG team that won the Bronze Medal there. Shane only went to England in 2006 after he fell at WEG but since then he has been based at home and preparing from there. I also believe that Sonja had been to Europe for the World Cup before in addition to WEG 2006.

As I heard said once, to win a gold medal, you dont have to be the best rider in the world. You just have to be the best rider on the day. I have found the Australians to be very very down to earth and riding into the Olympic dressage arena is much the same as riding into one back home. They dont let nerves get the best of them and they work as a team. They get the best coaches they can get their hands on (they did drag Harry Bolt out of retirement) but also reconize that the riders know their horses the best and listen to what they say about them. The horse always comes first.

I dont believe the American riders need to go to Europe to compete in order to be good enough against the rest of the world. The Aussies proved that when everyone was going on and on about how the Fredricks were going to win medals but two out of the three scores that counted on the team came from Australia based riders. The American system of training just needs some major overhauls on coaching and funding that will allow the riders to compete the best in their home country.


The americans DO need to compete against the best in other countries in order to gain a spirit level. You may be the best playing in your own sandbox but it is not an accurate representation of your performance as a whole. Competing at home does not provide this...look at the Dressage riders in North America who receieve scores that are inflated and do not represent the accuarcy of their performances when they go to europe.

[Clear Blue]

ack my post got eaten:(

The top finishers in Hong Kong all appeared to be strong partnerships. Maybe a question for the Aussi's is, how many horses do they ride on a daily basis and in competitions? Do they do any part of the daily care for their horses (feeding, mucking etc.)? What other responsibilities do they have?

Maybe our top riders are being spread a little too thin while trying to be everything to everybody (rider, trainer, coach, sales agent, business manager, etc.).

An idea is to start setting up Event horse syndicates for our riders. Get more people involved as owners on an affordable basis. Start with five fancy youngsters and a four year plan for each rider:winkgrin:.

[LisaB]

Clear Blue, you absolutely hit on something. Maybe it deserves it's own post since I've been thinking about this too. The riders that seemed to to really well had a strong bond with their horses and maybe had one or 2 advanced horses in their barn. The riders with the 'string' of horses seemed to not fare that well. I like this turn of events in HK, the course rode very well for the ride's who rode their horses well in accordance with the course. I like this turn of the tide.
And as far as bringing up the horses, I'm sorry but there's no way a rider who rides 10 horses a day is going to be able to spend the time on a youngster that is needed to bring them up properly. And I think if you don't know your horse inside and out, you're not going to do as well.
BUT on the flip side, the Aussies that live and train in Oz don't make money.
And yup, the Aussies and NZ'ers do live in Europe or Us BUT they started and made their mark in Oz. THEN got recognized to go overseas. They had their act together in Oz, NOT overseas. They just make a living overseas.
ack my post got eaten:(

The top finishers in Hong Kong all appeared to be strong partnerships. Maybe a question for the Aussi's is, how many horses do they ride on a daily basis and in competitions? Do they do any part of the daily care for their horses (feeding, mucking etc.)? What other responsibilities do they have?

Maybe our top riders are being spread a little too thin while trying to be everything to everybody (rider, trainer, coach, sales agent, business manager, etc.).

An idea is to start setting up Event horse syndicates for our riders. Get more people involved as owners on an affordable basis. Start with five fancy youngsters and a four year plan for each rider:winkgrin:.

[Ajierene]

Great ideas, but who was it that said she offered a horse each to three different top trainers. She would pay for food, vet care, entries, etc. They would ride. The two parties would split any profit from sale. The trainers initially agreed, then said they need trainer fees on top of it.

Karen O'Connor was great with Teddy, but she got that pony when he was already an advanced horse - she did not bring him up.

Trainers in the US both don't seem to bring horses up nearly as much and they seem unwilling to just accept a 'free ride' - even an Olympic ride.

There are cultural differences in the US that need to be looked at. What the poster described about Australia and horsecare is not possible in many parts of the country. You live in the suburbs or city, you cannot buy a horse and keep it in your backyard. A lot of barns don't do self care. These things make it much harder for the average kid to get a cheap horse or pony and keep it somewhere inexpensively.

[regeventer]

It is interesting to read Matt Ryan's blog on his website about getting selected (or not getting selected!) and the disadvantages of not living in Australia.

I'd be interested to hear any feedback if you do go read what he has to say!

[bambam]

Karen O'Connor was great with Teddy, but she got that pony when he was already an advanced horse - she did not bring him up.
.
But I believe she has brought Mandiba up and while they had some issues they certainly looked to be greenness issues and not fundamental ones that mean that this is not a pair to be reckoned with for the future

[Tootsie]

Matt Ryan's blog? You can't be serious. This is the same one that predicted that two out of the three down under Aussies would crash and burn, when it was in fact two of those Aussies who made up the final score for the team (with the other jumping clear on x-c with the fastest time). Matt is sour because for some reason Aussie competing in England feel they have some granted right to be on the team because they live there. Yes the competition is stiffer in England, but that doesnt mean that the competition back in Aus is not tough. And the only reason these riders were not able to compete in a CCI**** in preparation in Aus is due to EI. If EI hadn't hit, Matt would have less to complain about.

Kudos to those who remained in Australia and prepared from there. And I think that the team preformed exceptionally well. And consider Andrew Hoy. Yes he has been competing well at the big events but at the last 3 world championships (WEG 2002, Athens 2004, WEG2006) he fell off twice and had a stop at the third. Should the Aussie team put him on the team for the only reason that he did well 8 years ago? The same with Matt. It is a competition to get on a team and just because you are going well doesnt mean you get to slack off the competition. The Aussie based riders faught hard for their spots on the team and they proved themselves.

[regeventer]

Well, Tootsie, thanks for the point of view. I now virtually NOTHING about upper level riding/competitions, so I am interested to hear what people think about his opines.
It is a fact that the Aussie team did VERY well!!! You can't argue that any which way.