So Totally Different

[denny]

The thread asking "What is roads and tracks?" makes me realize how quickly we`re all forgetting what eventing used to be.

That 8 minute jumpoff against the clock in China-------Not even the same sport.

Here are the 1973 Ledyard 3-day stats----my first 3 day with Victor Dakin.

Phase A, 1st roads and tracks, 240 meters/min, a pretty fast trot---3 miles, 151 yards, 20 min, 41 seconds

Phase B Steeplechase, 690 m/m, 1 mile, 1521 yards, 4 min, 21 seconds

Phase C, 2nd roads and tracks, 5 miles, 1047 yards,4 240m/m, 37 min, 54 seconds

Ten minute vet hold

Phase D, 4 miles, 404 yards, 11 min, 57 seconds.

So that`s about 15 miles, give or take, to be done in about one hour, 15 minutes of riding time, or one hour and seven minutes longer than the 2008 Olympics.

How would the horses we saw a couple of days ago have fared? Interesting question.

The dressage was easier, and the show jumping was 3`11

[snoopy]

In fairness quite a few of them were succesful at the long format...but I get your point.

[denny]

I guess my question, Snoopy, is how many of them had that turn of foot, and relentless staying power, that all the good ones had to have in those days?

Don`t get me wrong. I love these modern horses, but in a different way, for different reasons. The old ones could be desperate to ride, sort of like being strapped to a heat seaking missile.

But I was 32 then, and still brave!!!

[oldbutnotdead]

Denny, with your astute and candid comments, you are still brave in my book, even if you aren't 32 anymore!!

[snoopy]

I guess my question, Snoopy, is how many of them had that turn of foot, and relentless staying power, that all the good ones had to have in those days?

Don`t get me wrong. I love these modern horses, but in a different way, for different reasons. The old ones could be desperate to ride, sort of like being strapped to a heat seaking missile.

But I was 32 then, and still brave!!!



As I said, I do get your point so to the opposite effect of my first post...there are plenty that would not have a snowball's chance in hell attempting the long format....and referencing your first sentence it could not be faulted to mistake that remark for riders instead of horses....so I will go one further, some of those riders would have not had a chance judging how unfit "they" looked.
You and I share the same opinion on that one for sure....;) Back in the day, the riders were as lean and fit as their horses.

[Sightunseen]

I think that going to the short format has put many horse to the upper levels that IMO would not have been able to go that far, or hold up as long if they were required to do a full 3 day. I think it has just opened the door to the warmbloods that have the "fancy" dressage and can jump big, but might not be able to keep the stamina up

[Romany]

The thread asking "What is roads and tracks?" makes me realize how quickly we`re all forgetting what eventing used to be.

That 8 minute jumpoff against the clock in China-------Not even the same sport.

Here are the 1973 Ledyard 3-day stats----my first 3 day with Victor Dakin.

Phase A, 1st roads and tracks, 240 meters/min, a pretty fast trot---3 miles, 151 yards, 20 min, 41 seconds

Phase B Steeplechase, 690 m/m, 1 mile, 1521 yards, 4 min, 21 seconds

Phase C, 2nd roads and tracks, 5 miles, 1047 yards,4 240m/m, 37 min, 54 seconds

Ten minute vet hold

Phase D, 4 miles, 404 yards, 11 min, 57 seconds.

So that`s about 15 miles, give or take, to be done in about one hour, 15 minutes of riding time, or one hour and seven minutes longer than the 2008 Olympics.

How would the horses we saw a couple of days ago have fared? Interesting question.

The dressage was easier, and the show jumping was 3`11


Denny - were those stats, ie the lengths/speeds of the four phases - pretty much the same in all horse trials of the same levels?

Kind of by-the-by, but I'm just curious.

I hadn't realised that the show-jumping phase in HK was against the clock, but I noticed a lot of them were fairly flying! It made it more exciting from a spectator's pov, I should think.

And...maybe it's at least a start as far as a fairer trade-off for losing the challenges inherent in 4 phases of R&T goes; it certainly demanded a combination of fitness and agility, even if not all on the same day any more.

As for how the horses then would have fared now.........well, the really good ones will always be really good ones, I guess; hard to say. Which is a total non-answer! ;)

[RAyers]

A short format horse and a long format horse are two different creatures. A long format horse can do the short. A short format horse, however,.... I doubt, no matter how good.


Reed

[denny]

I`m fairly reconciled to new eventing, even though I hated it at first. If I had my choice, I`d go back, but there are so many forces against it, land loss, and loss of an agrarian lifestyle being the biggest.

I have a bunch of jumper line warmblood babies, and some Irish ones, and they are so willing to please, and not hot, and such nice movers, that I can truly say that I enjoy them almost more than so many of the crotchrockets I used to ride. But maybe that`s because of creeping chicken-ness!!!

[quietann]

Wow, that is quite a difference! What were the equivalent times for the last time LF was done at the Olympics?

Also, this makes me want to figure out a very junior-sized "Roads and Tracks" for my little mare in the spring. If there were such a thing as Tadpole Long Format, I think she'd eat it up, and it also might make her a bit less of a speed demon on X/C; she shrugs her pretty little Palomino shoulders at 420 mpm and asks for more. I think it would be fun just to figure out optimum times for a simple network of dirt roads or trails.

[Beverley]

Here are the 1973 Ledyard 3-day stats----my first 3 day with Victor Dakin.

I came across my pictures from that event not too long ago, for sure remembered Golden Griffin- and maybe have Victor Dakin too!

[snoopy]

I`m fairly reconciled to new eventing, even though I hated it at first. If I had my choice, I`d go back, but there are so many forces against it, land loss, and loss of an agrarian lifestyle being the biggest.

I have a bunch of jumper line warmblood babies, and some Irish ones, and they are so willing to please, and not hot, and such nice movers, that I can truly say that I enjoy them almost more than so many of the crotchrockets I used to ride. But maybe that`s because of creeping chicken-ness!!!


Not chicken-ness...no...more sense!!!

Oh and Crotchrocket...well you have to have had one to appreciate that adjective....Brilliant. I had one that was just that and you know, hand on heart you would not get me to ride him today, no way. no how.


Anyone remember Plain Sailing?!! (not to suggest he was mine just an example)

[denny]

Snoopy, one of my favorite Le Goff lines, describing the kind of whacktoids we used to ride----

"I am galloping down to the big ditch and wall, and I pick up the telephone to dial the horse-----But there is no answer!"

[snoopy]

Yes well some of those characters knew their jobs better than we did. I think some would have been offended by the micro-management that is required of today's courses. That one I spoke of, well forget it. When we got to an event he called the shots. It was a time when you could leave them alone, stay out of their way and let them get on with their jobs....and they took it seriously!! Not so much now.

[eks]

Snoopy, one of my favorite Le Goff lines, describing the kind of whacktoids we used to ride----

"I am galloping down to the big ditch and wall, and I pick up the telephone to dial the horse-----But there is no answer!"


Kind of like Poggio the other day!

[RAyers]

"I am galloping down to the big ditch and wall, and I pick up the telephone to dial the horse-----But there is no answer!"

Those words ring true not just for eventing at the time.

Those are the horses I grew up with doing the jumpers. How else did you learn to just sit quietly, facing impending doom and trust the horse as much as he trusted you? I still can hear my trainer yelling as I would come down to a 4'6" oxer on a lunatic TB. "Shoulders back! Sit up and wait!"

A friend I grew up with who still rides the big GPs once told me, "The reason we are good riders is because all we had were crazy pukes that we had to take from the pasture to the show ring."

Those were the horses then and those are the horses I still love.

Reed

[retreadeventer]

"New eventing"....yuck....how sad.
The Woff said it three years ago. "Amateurs will save the classic three day". He was talking to the assembled riders of the Training three-day event. So it will be the amateur's horse...crotchrocket, whacktoid, backyard, dial-a-disaster off track unwanted killer pen rescue thoroughbreds that save the sport!
However these nicely bred horses that are meant for the sport in the future are probably a lot safer to ride and sounder too.

[Kairoshorses]

I love the idea of ammies saving the sport....but I wonder.....

I didn't get to start eventing until mid 40's. Alas, that's after two kids, a PhD, and a lot to lose....so I'm one of those chickens. But I'm working as hard as I can towards doing a training three day. I ride at least five days a week in the summer (sometimes at my hub's ranch 3 hours north "prowling" cattle on my horse over great terrain), sometimes around our flat cotton fields, and sometimes in my ring. During school, that's only three, MAYBE four times a week.

I DO trot sets. I DO gallop a mile from time to time (the length of one cotton field!). I DO practice two point at all gaits. I work a LOT on transitions between/within gaits. I'm even going to try to get someone to lunge (sp? I never know how to spell it!) me once a week to help me with balance, sitting trot, etc.

I just did my first two Novices, and we had clean XC and made time, which was my goal. And it was a BLAST.

But I will never, ever do the long format that Denny describes. I'm simply too old to ride "crotchrockets".

So...While I will work and fight tooth and nail for the Training Three Day, that's ALL I can aspire to.

Is that enough to save the sport? Or is what I'm saving a different sort of sport?

[Gnep]

Hihihihihihi Denny,
My first one, Bad Bramstedt,Vor Military, 1972, A = 8900 meters, at 320 mpm, I had to trott rather hard and Gallop, steeplechase 3000 meters at 690 8 jumps including a huge natural ditch with running water, C 5000, at 300, ten minutes walking the horse with a loosend girth and a vet taking heart and resp, no groom or anything like that, I got 30 seconds late to the start of D, d=7200 at 570 and had 35 jumps, 40 efforts. One refusal no time.

When we were back to the stables, me and Fuego ( a Hessian WB ) had to take a rather serious pee, I mean serious, we both peed rather red.
I called the vet and he laughed his butt of when I told him, mine and my horses and he explained to me to take a short brake after steeplechase take a pee don't hold it in for 2 hours, and me peeing would encourage my horse to pee.
I have done it since than it worked every time, my favored moment in a 3 day, have a cigaret and pee with your horse after steeplechase, peaceful, relaxing a real nice let down from the chase and than trott to the D box.

But you know those dressage scores, compared to today, they would be of the scale, they would not register, it was an after thought, did not matter at all because of the enormety of endurance day. That's what the training was all about endurance day and nothing else, jumping and galloping, galloping and jumping and at those rather high speeds.
Totally differant game today, totally differant riders and totally differant horses.

Past tense.

[RunForIt]

Kind of like Poggio the other day!

nope, ...first you have to establish the line - literally....and I ain't nothing, but I know that.

However, I also know that there are no perfect rides...too bad the Hiccup came in the middle of an Olympic ride. Or, Amy just perhaps came face to face with "balance" and I'm not talking about sitting on a horse.

Maybe sometimes, you just can't outrun " do what's right". It'll come tapping you on the shoulder at the wierdest times. Maybe.

[His Greyness]

Denny - were those stats, ie the lengths/speeds of the four phases - pretty much the same in all horse trials of the same levels?

Kind of by-the-by, but I'm just curious.



Even in 1982, nine years later than Ledyard 73, the statistics for Badminton Phases A, B, C and D were about the same:
15 miles total, 40 fences (B + D), to be ridden in 90 minutes.

Video of part of my movie (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4830798433323996010) of Badminton 82 is still up on Google Video. No comparison to pole bending through a Chinese golf course.

[Snapdragon]

Denny and Gnep, those accounts were really fun to read. Makes me nostalgic for a sport I never knew. Too bad for me.

Sounds like tons of fun and more down to earth than what's going on now.

[lyssap39]

His Greyness, that is an amazing video!!! Thank you so much for sharing it with us!! It is always nice to watch the greats way back then!!! It would be nice if eventing could head back that way!

[TheOrangeOne]

I don't generally subscribe to the whole "back in the days of yore" philosiphy, and I do see the good in taking an hour off their legs, but another H/J person and I watched the badminton video and we were suprised at the difference. Different horses, but the course asked totally different questions. The combinations were more "be brave and kick on" and when mistakes occured, they had enough pace that it wasn't so danged scary.

[wolfmare]

I really appreciated seeing that Badminton footage too. We have definitely changed the feel with the carved animals and Pretty flowers.... watching that I could see the real role a horse would play in the kind of combat and communication runs performed by the calvary.
And then there is always that little hillside in The Man from Snowy River for an armchair adrenalin rush.....

[Sannois]

I think that going to the short format has put many horse to the upper levels that IMO would not have been able to go that far, or hold up as long if they were required to do a full 3 day. I think it has just opened the door to the warmbloods that have the "fancy" dressage and can jump big, but might not be able to keep the stamina up

And wasn't there a discussion back when the format was trying to be changed about that very thing? So the warmbloods would be able to compete. Wish I had the time to drag up those old discussions, they would be interesting to what is now happening.

[crittertwitter]

Yah, thanks for sharing the badminton video. Love the course. Something to think about... all day.

Ya know, those who drew many of the 'new' eventers were the 'old' eventers. I wonder how many suitors of the 'new' eventing are actually romancing an apparition. Not to say events aren't great fun, but the 'feel' has accelerated at the same rate as the rest of technology, which has led to unanticipated consequences - an increasingly unnatural existence, with all the pathologies that come with it, speed and efficiency mirrored just as clearly by empty busy-ness and a vicious rate of change that outclasses everyone, but death.

Pah! Very visceral today.

[Jealoushe]

Thank you this is exactly what I have been saying!!! Most of these horses were shattered around the Olympic course, they would never have even made it past the 10 min box if it were a long format!!!

So why are these horses that shouldn't be at this level, continued to be pushed there? They scrape over the fences and across the finish line... I'm sorry but I want my horse to CLEAR the fences and be still giving me lots of run at the end of the course.

I still think the Germans would have taken it, their horses were truely fit.

[CarrieK]

...an increasingly unnatural existence, with all the pathologies that come with it, speed and efficiency mirrored just as clearly by empty busy-ness and a vicious rate of change that outclasses everyone, but death.

Pah! Very visceral today.

:: opens a pack of Ho Hos and passes one to crittertwitter :: Creamy filling. Perky shape. 'Nuff said.

[clivers]

Hihihihihihi Denny,
My first one, Bad Bramstedt,Vor Military, 1972, A = 8900 meters, at 320 mpm, I had to trott rather hard and Gallop, steeplechase 3000 meters at 690 8 jumps including a huge natural ditch with running water, C 5000, at 300, ten minutes walking the horse with a loosend girth and a vet taking heart and resp, no groom or anything like that, I got 30 seconds late to the start of D, d=7200 at 570 and had 35 jumps, 40 efforts. One refusal no time.

When we were back to the stables, me and Fuego ( a Hessian WB ) had to take a rather serious pee, I mean serious, we both peed rather red.
I called the vet and he laughed his butt of when I told him, mine and my horses and he explained to me to take a short brake after steeplechase take a pee don't hold it in for 2 hours, and me peeing would encourage my horse to pee.
I have done it since than it worked every time, my favored moment in a 3 day, have a cigaret and pee with your horse after steeplechase, peaceful, relaxing a real nice let down from the chase and than trott to the D box.

But you know those dressage scores, compared to today, they would be of the scale, they would not register, it was an after thought, did not matter at all because of the enormety of endurance day. That's what the training was all about endurance day and nothing else, jumping and galloping, galloping and jumping and at those rather high speeds.
Totally differant game today, totally differant riders and totally differant horses.

Past tense.


Awesome story Gnep! I can't say my horses and I have shared that bond, but I did get busted talking a pee while walking phase C once!

[Elghund2]

The video of Badminton was great. Its interesting to how the jumps were more natural. I didn't see 100% of the video but I didn't see any "cute" jumps. Almost everything I saw bore resemblence to the things we see hunting or hunting pacing.

If people liked that video and want to try something similar but tamer, get yourself qualified for the Piedmont Hunt or Orange County Hunt hunter paces. Those are great courses over native terrain and are filled with coops, barways, stonewalls, drops, etc.

[AppJumpr08]

His Greyness, Thank you for posting that video!! It makes me long for the older format events.. Where forward galloping and bold horses were rewarded for their efforts.

Especially loved seeing Bruce and JJ Babu through the water at the end - what an awesome pair.

I didn't come into eventing until the very end of the old format 3 DEs, and never had the chance to ride in one, but I already miss them. This new showjumpy cross country stuff is for the birds.

[KSevnter]

I don't generally subscribe to the whole "back in the days of yore" philosiphy, and I do see the good in taking an hour off their legs, but another H/J person and I watched the badminton video and we were suprised at the difference. Different horses, but the course asked totally different questions. The combinations were more "be brave and kick on" and when mistakes occured, they had enough pace that it wasn't so danged scary.

And it is steeplechase and the R&T that makes the horse go like that. R&T/steeplechase were considered a warm-up for x-c until apparently 4 years ago. I cringe at the perception of "taking an hour off their legs" because it is that hour that actually kept their legs, hearts, and riders safe.

It is so sad the three-day is going by the wayside, so many people will never know what it feels like to hit every distance on a course without taking a single tug. There is nothing quite like it in the world.

[Marney]

The video was great and brings back so many memories. I never got to ride the long format but always wanted to. Everybody riding looked more natural and the horses were more relaxed. I just got done watching the Olympics and it seemed so choppy and unnatural. It was beautiful though and boy was it great to see Mark Todd again.

[rebeginner]

I think it's a ruse/myth/lie that the reason eventing changed to a short format is due to lack of land space. Isn't the land still there? I'm pretty sure that the KHP has not sold vast swathes of land that was used for R&T and steeplechase. I'm so happy that my one visit to Rolex was 2003: full format, and I got to see Pippa Funnell win in the same year that she captured both Badminton and Burgley.

It seems obvious to me that the only rationale that makes any sense is a financial one: not for the organizers so much as for the ULRs that now they can ride 11 horses at one short-format event. The so-called new eventing seems to me to be nothing more than a glorified hunter derby with dressage and showjumping tacked on either end.

I'm a confirmed LLR (aspirations to a T3DE before I die), but I am horrified (and saddened) that the sport has changed so dramatically in such a short time for such a myopic reason.

[Romany]

Even in 1982, nine years later than Ledyard 73, the statistics for Badminton Phases A, B, C and D were about the same:
15 miles total, 40 fences (B + D), to be ridden in 90 minutes.

Video of part of my movie (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4830798433323996010) of Badminton 82 is still up on Google Video. No comparison to pole bending through a Chinese golf course.


Classic Badminton - thanks for posting (and I was there in '82 - even cooler :) )!

[Gnep]

The change was very wellcomed by all the Pros. The myth that it was because of the warmblood breeders is frankly BS.
The land issue in Europe and as we were able to see in HK was one of the factors and running a true Long Format in HK under those weather conditions would have been a horse killer.

3 Long with the same horse in a year was all you could do, 1 star through 4 star. Today you can do twice as much. More bang for the dollar.

Since the demise of the Long Format, eventing in Europe has exploded, one can ride next to every week end a CIC or CCI, even in countries like Portugal, or Poland, or Italy. It added 2 more 4stars to the calendar, Luhmuehlen and Pau and so on and so on.

It was a business decision, but not because of the WB.

Longing for the past is ok, the 3D is such a fantastic and humbling affair, but it just does not fit into todays business model of the Professionals, they need show turn a round.

[quietann]

TIf people liked that video and want to try something similar but tamer, get yourself qualified for the Piedmont Hunt or Orange County Hunt hunter paces. Those are great courses over native terrain and are filled with coops, barways, stonewalls, drops, etc.

It surprises me how few eventers seem to take advantage of hunter paces. To me, that seems like a really nice way to get in an X/C school and have fun. When my little mare and I are ready, I'd love to take her to one!

[snoopy]

The change was very wellcomed by all the Pros. The myth that it was because of the warmblood breeders is frankly BS.
The land issue in Europe and as we were able to see in HK was one of the factors and running a true Long Format in HK under those weather conditions would have been a horse killer.

3 Long with the same horse in a year was all you could do, 1 star through 4 star. Today you can do twice as much. More bang for the dollar.

Since the demise of the Long Format, eventing in Europe has exploded, one can ride next to every week end a CIC or CCI, even in countries like Portugal, or Poland, or Italy. It added 2 more 4stars to the calendar, Luhmuehlen and Pau and so on and so on.

It was a business decision, but not because of the WB.

Longing for the past is ok, the 3D is such a fantastic and humbling affair, but it just does not fit into todays business model of the Professionals, they need show turn a round.

Absolutely agree with your entire post!!

One has to look outside the US when down playing the land issue..of course existing sites still have the land but the change was do in part to venues who were to be holding championship events, that did not have the land to host a full phase championship track.

It was definately not a WB issue as tb's are available all of the world.

[Jealoushe]

Ya but better chances of winning the dressage on a WB, and a lot of people can't ride thoroughbreds!

[Gnep]

Jealoushe, what is so special about the TBs that not everybody can ride them.

[IFG]

The video of Badminton was great. Its interesting to how the jumps were more natural. I didn't see 100% of the video but I didn't see any "cute" jumps. Almost everything I saw bore resemblence to the things we see hunting or hunting pacing.

If people liked that video and want to try something similar but tamer, get yourself qualified for the Piedmont Hunt or Orange County Hunt hunter paces. Those are great courses over native terrain and are filled with coops, barways, stonewalls, drops, etc.

To be honest, hunter paces and hunting is what I'll be working on this current year. The eventing has lost its appeal.

[BAC]

Anyone remember Plain Sailing?!! (not to suggest he was mine just an example)

I have his picture in my living room, a good friend rode him at Burghley.

[Jealoushe]

Jealoushe, what is so special about the TBs that not everybody can ride them.

You don't know?

[snoopy]

I have his picture in my living room, a good friend rode him at Burghley.


Would that be Don? Tough handsome horse.

[BAC]

Would that be Don? Tough handsom horse.

Yup.

[Maryalden]

If so, he was a tough, handsome man! ;)

[Tiramit]

Those words ring true not just for eventing at the time.

Those are the horses I grew up with doing the jumpers. How else did you learn to just sit quietly, facing impending doom and trust the horse as much as he trusted you? I still can hear my trainer yelling as I would come down to a 4'6" oxer on a lunatic TB. "Shoulders back! Sit up and wait!"



You forgot to mention that the lunatic TB was green and raced on the track not too long before that oxer! :lol:

Denny, this has probably been asked and answered a millions times on this board, but I'd love to hear your opinion on the injuries and down time faced by horses in the past vs. today? It would seem that the long format made for tougher horse with less injuries...?

[gjump]

Those words ring true not just for eventing at the time.

Those are the horses I grew up with doing the jumpers. How else did you learn to just sit quietly, facing impending doom and trust the horse as much as he trusted you? I still can hear my trainer yelling as I would come down to a 4'6" oxer on a lunatic TB. "Shoulders back! Sit up and wait!"

A friend I grew up with who still rides the big GPs once told me, "The reason we are good riders is because all we had were crazy pukes that we had to take from the pasture to the show ring."

Those were the horses then and those are the horses I still love.

Reed

AMEN!!!

[Gnep]

Nope Jealoushe

[BAC]

If so, he was a tough, handsome man! ;)

He's also an excellent clinician, if you ever get the chance to ride with him be sure to do so.

[melodiousaphony]

"I am galloping down to the big ditch and wall, and I pick up the telephone to dial the horse-----But there is no answer!"

Horses these days, like everyone else, seem to be carrying cell phones. And like 12 year olds obnoxiously babbling away their parents' minutes, I'm not sure it's a good thing.

Which might be why the T3DE at GMHA is a great thing... there's no cell phone coverage!

[Sannois]

If so, he was a tough, handsome man! ;)

And since As a Child I learned to ride from him mom, I may be a bit biased.
I remember ooohing and Aaahing when he would come home, cause us little 8 year olds were very impressed with the olympic eventer!! :cool:

[sunnycher]

I loved the video, it was very nostalgic - like watching home movies.

It is definately not the same sport, today vs. then.

Question - Don who?

[BAC]

Question - Don who?

Don Sachey, won team gold at the 1974 World Championships at Burghley. Denny, Bruce Davidson and Mike Plumb were the other 3 members of the winning team.

[Beverley]

Ya but better chances of winning the dressage on a WB, and a lot of people can't ride thoroughbreds!

I fear that these days it is simply a matter that a lot of people haven't tried to ride thoroughbreds.

Yeah, the warmblood will win dressage, but trucking on down to a fence, really, you can't beat a thoroughbred. And I've had a good sampling of rides on both going back 35+ years. Including my fair share of crotchrockets- thing about 'em though was, at least mine, when the going got tough, the tough got going very well.

[Maryalden]

BAC, I rode with Don a lot in the '80's. He was still living in VA, but giving clinics at my parents' ranch in CA. Luckily for us (area VI) he moved to CA. He was a great teacher, and wonderfully pragmatic.

I've lost track of him over the years, how is he? Please tell him that the Murrays send their love.

Thank you!

[AppJumpr08]

Ya but better chances of winning the dressage on a WB, and a lot of people can't ride thoroughbreds!

IMHO Anyone who has any business eventing can!

[Jealoushe]

Yes, for the most part you would think all the eventers would be able to ride thoroughbreds, but I just don't think that's true. There are a lot of people out there at the ULs that shouldn't be.

For the record GNEP I was just being cheeky. From my experiences I found some people can't ride thoroughbreds (the super hot ones) because they simply can not relax enough to get the horse to relax. Some people just don't get thoroughbreds. Some people prefer a horse they can push around more... I just want to add that I dont think running out of control with a huge bit and tonnes of gear constitutes "riding". My opinion thats all!

[LookinSouth]

To be honest, hunter paces and hunting is what I'll be working on this current year. The eventing has lost its appeal.

Ditto!:D and dont' forget Hunter Trials too.

I just don't find anything beyond Novice appealing AT ALL. The increased technicality, the speed required to make time and some of the crazy XC fences that have nothing "natural" about them are just a turn off.

To me the thrill of XC is about going for a nice hand gallop and jumping coops, logs and stone walls along the way. Your just not going to find that in eventing beyond Novice IMO.

[SEPowell]

Yes, for the most part you would think all the eventers would be able to ride thoroughbreds, but I just don't think that's true. There are a lot of people out there at the ULs that shouldn't be.

For the record GNEP I was just being cheeky. From my experiences I found some people can't ride thoroughbreds (the super hot ones) because they simply can not relax enough to get the horse to relax. Some people just don't get thoroughbreds. Some people prefer a horse they can push around more... I just want to add that I dont think running out of control with a huge bit and tonnes of gear constitutes "riding". My opinion thats all!

But thoroughbreds have much to teach riders and if ridden with the goal of learning from them, much will be learned, starting with the understanding that a stronger bit will get you nowhere; it's always better to stay in a soft bit and learn to ride. (I know this from having been rocketed off following attempts to control with tough bits :lol:) They also have much to teach about horsemanship; getting ottbs fit for 6 miles and keeping them sound and at a good weight can be a trick, but not impossible if you learn all you can about managing horses carefully and proactively. In the end there is nothing more brilliant (and interesting) to ride than a thoroughbred. In fact, I don't feel that secure on horses that don't have the tb's catlike athleticism.

[Jealoushe]

Ditto!

[IFG]

Ditto!:D and dont' forget Hunter Trials too.

I just don't find anything beyond Novice appealing AT ALL. The increased technicality, the speed required to make time and some of the crazy XC fences that have nothing "natural" about them are just a turn off.

To me the thrill of XC is about going for a nice hand gallop and jumping coops, logs and stone walls along the way. Your just not going to find that in eventing beyond Novice IMO.

In total agreement. With the rules enacted in recent years, it is more about showing than about having fun. If I want to ride XC, I might as well go somewhere where I can do it even if I am imperfect. Hopefully, my horse will adjust to being in a group. That remains to be seen given that he is an old fashioned TB.

[vineyridge]

Surely all y'all remember that Janie Atkinson tried her best to keep the real 3d alive at Rolex, but the ULRs wouldn't enter.

Going back to foxhunting and its offshoots, I'm wondering if the fact that most ULRs today don't have that experience from childhood makes a difference in their analyses of what horses are capable of?

[denny]

It`s impossible to overestimate the importance of the foxhunting influence on "old" eventing.

Bill Steinkraus, no less, told me that it was the foxhunting fraternity that saved eventing after the disbanding of the world`s cavary regiments, post WW2.

When I started eventing in 1962, all the leadership of USCTA was involved in some way with hunting. Mackay-Smith, Ayer, Clark family, Semmes, Harris, Coles, Hoffman, Guest, and HUNDREDS of others.

Badminton, 1949, founded by a MFH.

And therefore a tie-in with racing over jumps, which all the USET riders of my era did.

Plus any number of foxhunting people who rode in the Vt 100 mile trail ride, Perkins, Harper, Haight, Mackay-Smith, Lana Du Pont Wright.

These were people STEEPED in knowing how to get horses FIT, and STEEPED in breeding, raising and using the thoroughbred galloping horse.

As foxhunting got squeezed out by development, so did its influence on eventing, and so now we have the short format.

[Ajierene]

I find it interesting that people think warmbloods are incapable of being competitive in three day eventing.

While in the US, Thoroughbreds may have been the mount of choice for the cavalry officer, the warmblood served that function for many countries and regions in Europe.

They had to be just as fit and capable as a thoroughbred. Thus, just because a horse is a warmblood does not mean it is incapable of being competitive in three day eventing.

http://www.swanaoffice.org/page_BreedHistory.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holstein_(horse)
http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/articles/hanoverian-horse.shtml

[Jealoushe]

Not exactly what I meant....I just meant things along the lines of... when horses are tired wb vs tbd I find tbs maintain their scope and carefulness moreso than the wb. Tbs will try and try and try whereas I find wbs will only try so much than basically throw in the towel.

OF COURSE, thats not all of them, but my personal experience has led me to this opinion, which is just an opinion, not fact.

[denny]

I wish someone could persuade Denis Glaccum to weigh in on all this. He`s a lot less tactful than I am. Actually, Denis is a lot less tactful than Genghis Khan. He`d have some interesting insights.

[Gnep]

Jealoushe,
It does not matter what breed, if you have a real hot rod and you can not relax and hang with your hands in their mouth you just make them hotter. Bigest mistake people can make, quit riding because the sucker is about to explode and just grab the reins, instead of putting a leg on and give reins.

So beeing cheeky, what is so special about TBs, you have not given an explanation. Only thing you have said , some people should not ride or buy hot rods.

[Jealoushe]

I guess I just think they are too smart for some people...

[BAC]

I wish someone could persuade Denis Glaccum to weigh in on all this. He`s a lot less tactful than I am. Actually, Denis is a lot less tactful than Genghis Khan. He`d have some interesting insights.

I wouldn't mind if you wanted to be less tactful.

[fooler]

It`s impossible to overestimate the importance of the foxhunting influence on "old" eventing.

Bill Steinkraus, no less, told me that it was the foxhunting fraternity that saved eventing after the disbanding of the world`s cavary regiments, post WW2.

When I started eventing in 1962, all the leadership of USCTA was involved in some way with hunting. Mackay-Smith, Ayer, Clark family, Semmes, Harris, Coles, Hoffman, Guest, and HUNDREDS of others.

Badminton, 1949, founded by a MFH.

And therefore a tie-in with racing over jumps, which all the USET riders of my era did.

Plus any number of foxhunting people who rode in the Vt 100 mile trail ride, Perkins, Harper, Haight, Mackay-Smith, Lana Du Pont Wright.

These were people STEEPED in knowing how to get horses FIT, and STEEPED in breeding, raising and using the thoroughbred galloping horse.

As foxhunting got squeezed out by development, so did its influence on eventing, and so now we have the short format.

Add the fact that so many eventers only event - we are losing the horsemanship that comes from cross-training. FYI - Lana DuPont Wright, the 1st woman to ride in the Olympic 3Day, Mother and trainer of eventers, Supporter of Combined Driving (she helped a friend of mine who won an Individual Silver at WEG), foxhunter and endurance rider. This is the type of person we should try to emulate.

[Sannois]

I wouldn't mind if you wanted to be less tactful.

I think having you on this forum is a great asset. Your years of experience, knowledge and common sense are so appreciated.
And we dont require tactful. Thats what is so great about your articles. You tell it like it is! :yes:

[LookinSouth]

In total agreement. With the rules enacted in recent years, it is more about showing than about having fun. If I want to ride XC, I might as well go somewhere where I can do it even if I am imperfect. Hopefully, my horse will adjust to being in a group. That remains to be seen given that he is an old fashioned TB.


Noticed your in MA. Sent you a PM .:)