COTH BB Predicted this!

[denny]

About a year ago I asked the question, on this BB, for a Between Rounds article I was working on: "Why do Fritz and Heidi beat Sally and Bill?"

And in that BR, I used the responses I got here from all of you to frame the answers to that question, which is "What aspects of the German system, German horse culture, German experience, makes them so much better than every other nation in so many aspects of the horse world?"

Remember that? Sept 28,2007 issue. Reread it to see what you said then, which was an exact forcast of what we just watched over the past several days.

And there are still 2 more sports to go!

You guys nailed it!!!!

[Sebastian]

Ummm... Yay..???

:lol: Sorry, but I have to giggle at our ability to predict our own demise...(except for Gina, of course.)

Denny, do you think the "powers that be" might ever figure it out?

Seb :)

[denny]

Ever is a long time.

But-------no.

[snoopy]

yes but what do we know on this silly BB...and it has been called that my some I do not care to mention.

[mbarrett]

Denny, you were right on, of course. I remember the article in COTH. I remember you posting on the forum. I even replied to your question.

I watched the live feed of the x-c and stadium on my computer and I'd have to say the Germans ROCK! They had lovely rides and deserve the gold.

I don't know what's up with the US? A little too much training? The wrong kind of training? Too much secrecy? It's hard to say...

Denny, what's in your crystal ball for 2012?

[denny]

Certainly those of us on the "outside" can see a need for a major reappraisal of all manner of things.

But I`m enough of a hardened cynic to think it won`t happen.

[JER]

yes but what do we know on this silly BB...and it has been called that my some I do not care to mention.

Hmmm. But could those 'unmentionables' fend for themselves on this BB? Perhaps they'd be intimidated and overwhelmed by some of the intelligent minds here. And I mean that.

At the Safety Summit, there was a determined effort from the front of the room to avoid the tough questions. I would think those same voices wouldn't want to participate in real discussion.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by denny:

Certainly those of us on the "outside" can see a need for a major reappraisal of all manner of things.

Understatement.

Originally posted by denny:

But I`m enough of a hardened cynic to think it won`t happen.

Ok, stupid question here, WHY would it be impossible to change? Without going into major detail, why can't the TPTB be changed? What is the major roadblock politically?

[deltawave]

I'd say a little more fitness for horse and rider would be in order. Most of the US horses (not McKinlaigh) looked TIRED, although to be fair, so did many of the others, too. But the top pairs sure had their horses FIT and eager to go, even at midnight on SJ day, twice!

It just looked to me like the best horses out there were the relentless GALLOPERS, the ones that just got on with things without needing to be fussed with, set up, adjusted and fought with all the time.

I wonder if there is any way to "plug in" to the training methods of different countries? I sure would like to look at and compare the conditioning regimens of France, Germany, Italy, Gr. Britain, etc. to the methods we use.

[BaroquePony]

Notice it was an amateur that won and did it with incredible grace and finess.

[vineyridge]

I said it before and I'll say it again

HIRE CHRIS BARTLE AS US COACH.

[BaroquePony]

originally posted by deltawave:

It just looked to me like the best horses out there were the relentless GALLOPERS, the ones that just got on with things without needing to be fussed with, set up, adjusted and fought with all the time.

If you are fighting with your horse, it is exhausting. Been there, done that.

I think there has been a great loss in horsemanship and correct riding in the US.

Edited to add: I don't think the horsemanship and correct riding stuff is as big of an obstacle to change as it may seem at the moment, although it will take some work. My main concerns are the politcal roadblocks.

[retreadeventer]

I wonder if there is any way to "plug in" to the training methods of different countries? I sure would like to look at and compare the conditioning regimens of France, Germany, Italy, Gr. Britain, etc. to the methods we use.

OH, me too! Great question! I wish someone would write an in-depth article on that.

[pwynnnorman]

Aw, come on, folks. It's one thing to be right, but if you are right about the inevitable, what's the point?

We don't license trainers or riders, we don't spend six months on the longe line, we don't make our own horses (we buy them made), we don't qualify to move up (much), we don't have a ton of competitions to choose from, we don't have a ton of competitors to really discover if we're that good or if it's just the horse we're on, we don't have a lot of people willing to buy a horse for someone else to ride (unless it's for sale), we don't have any way for riders to focus on their riding instead of the press of putting food on the table by teaching and clinicing, we don't have (many) young people with riding as family traditions, we don't have limited opportunities for young people (we have multiple, high-reward disciplines, breeds AND ballet, piano, hockey, etc.)...

If we want to do better, we have to figure out how to do better with what we have, because we don't have what THEY have. So what's the point in maligning ourselves for being different from them?

[BaroquePony]

Out on a limb here ...

Growing up in a horse family and then having to exist in a country (the US) that thrives on mediocrity is really a bore.

I get tired of the limitations, many of which are only there because of lazy or incompetent people that somehow end up running things (won't go into my theories on how all of that came to pass).

I think it is far more satifying to live in a country where a person can focus on something they love to do, find others who can help them improve on what they love to do, and then enjoy the feeling of doing something really well.

I know, that's really asking a lot.

[2ndyrgal]

as usual. I watched the German on his big horse gallop on like he was out on a good day's hunt. I didn't watch dressage, I didn't watch stadium. Just xc. I didn't even watch all of the xc rides, but his ride, and even Ingrid Klimke's were just as they should be. I didn't think the course was too god awful for the most part, there were some really really good rides and some really pitiful ones. I think that Karen OConnor must have spent more time in the saddle than she does on the ground, she just sticks on thru the oddest stuff. I felt bad for Becky, it looked like she just lost her place a little and decided to late at the dragon (though armchair quarterbacking is easy). I'm not going to dwell on AT except to say she didn't look as fit/comfortable in the saddle as she has in years past. I didn't actually see Phillip's ride, but he and Connaught have the resume', so I didn't need to. So who do we run out of town on a rail because of Phillip's little "weight' problem??? How do we just, having the finest veterinarians, wonderful horses, gorgeous facilities, a wealth of experienced eventers at our disposal, get our hat so quickly handed to us on the International playing field?? Can we have lost that much in the last 30 years???? (I'm not sure I want you to answer that last bit).

[Carol Ames]

Everyone forgotten? We lost our best horse( Teddy:cry: )the odds favorite for the :yes: gold, oh what might have been;:cry: enjoy your dentists 'victory Wynn! ( He's too young for me anyway!:lol:)

[Carol Ames]

WE need the right horses1:yes:








tI don't know what's up with the US? A little too much training? The wrong kind of training? Too much secrecy? It's hard to say...

[His Greyness]

Five points behind the Germans in the Eventing Team competition were the Australians. 19.6 points behind the Germans the British muddled through to the Bronze medal. Then there's a big point gap to the also rans which incude the USA. If you took the three worst scores of the Australian team they would have been in third place just behind the British. The three worst scores of the German team total to 217.9 not much ahead of Sweden as leader of the also rans. So for consistency the Australians fare better than the Germans. The U.S.'s defecting Australian scored lower than any of his former fellow countrymen and women.

Australian culture is the antithesis of the German's "Alles in Ordnung" reverence for authority. Only two of the Australian team are based in the U.K. A country with only 20 million residents who have many competing sports activities, including their own version of western riding called campdrafting, half a world away from the centre of eventing can muster a team that almost won the gold medal. A country with 300 million people couldn't.

[BaroquePony]

If we had a chance at anything decent I beleive it would have been with Teddy. Murphy's Law always dictates that it is the best horse in the barn that has the unusual accident.

I have seen many American bred horses that have the caliber without a doubt. I have seen many of those best caliber horses ruined trhough bad riding and horsemanship. I fault our attitude and culture [edit: or lack thereof], combined with our training methods.

[poltroon]

I suggest that next time we send 4 Californians and a pony. ;) ;) ;) :cry: :D

More seriously, though, I think we need to get a batch of riders over to England to compete again. The last few years, our riders seem to be sticking with just Rolex. Now I understand that, I don't have the time or money to go to England even without a horse, ;) but we need to get more travel, more international experience under the belts of our riders, something that the others get naturally just by being based in Europe.

[BaliBandido]

Aw, come on, folks. It's one thing to be right, but if you are right about the inevitable, what's the point?

We don't license trainers or riders, we don't spend six months on the longe line, we don't make our own horses (we buy them made), we don't qualify to move up (much), we don't have a ton of competitions to choose from, we don't have a ton of competitors to really discover if we're that good or if it's just the horse we're on, we don't have a lot of people willing to buy a horse for someone else to ride (unless it's for sale), we don't have any way for riders to focus on their riding instead of the press of putting food on the table by teaching and clinicing, we don't have (many) young people with riding as family traditions, we don't have limited opportunities for young people (we have multiple, high-reward disciplines, breeds AND ballet, piano, hockey, etc.)...

And we don't win very many medals.

Hmmm, I wonder if there is a connection? There are no shortcuts. There is no substitute for doing the steps, for taking the time, for being willing to put in the time and effort to learn. That will always be reflected in the level of sucsess you have- be it in horses, business, golf etc.

Until the US is willing to do those things, instead of looking for yet another way to do what 'they' do, but in a shorter, faster, cheaper, magic weight loss in a pill with no food restrictions and no exercise required type of manner, then the US will not achieve the level they say they want to acheive.

Talk is talk- this is not rocket science, we are just too impatient and self indulgent to really put in the work, the training, the learning, the experience, the way it needs to be done.

[2ndyrgal]

Hey, I loved Teddy too, but his absence does not excuse AT's performance (on a very proven albeit difficult horse) Becky''s foggy moment (again, I admire her greatly, but I don't think anyone saw that coming) and Phillips little boot debacle. So we had 5 chances and better than 50% of our riders had major problems. I think if we're going to stay home and not train in Europe, then we need to just accept what we get. If you want to compete successfully on the international stage, you have to get out and do it a lot more often than we do. I have to think that we have a wealth of very qualified people that could do a better job coaching than what's happening. I also think fund raising needs to be addressed more than it is. USETs focus (in those lovely little letters I get from GM and co almost monthly) don't focus on the Eventers much. Why can't the USEA have more focus on that and start farther out and channel $$$ towards the top tier riders competing across the pond? And dammit, I think that somehow, the ULR just think that on that day, they're going to get it done, and well they should. But if there is a major horse change, ie Teddy not being there, then perhaps we should have a deeper well to draw from in terms of experience.

[magnolia73]

Well, I think our eventing team did not quite have very good luck. But Gina Miles did us all proud. And I just watched Courtney King do a lovely dressage test. And I bet our jumpers will come through as well.

And we don't win very many medals.
The only nation with more medals than us in equestrian events historically is Germany. We won 5 medals in Athens out of 12 possible (3 chances for team medals, 9 chances for individual). We won almost half the medals.

In my uneducated opinion, our problem this year was perhaps a lack of experience (Becky Holder and Karen's horse) coupled with bad luck (Philip Duttons boot) and one pair who simply did not show up for the party on XC day. And one rider rose above and rode brilliantly in all 3 phases.

Personally- I don't think it has been a good year for eventing in the US- a whole lot of drama everywhere and not a whole lot of support for the team. I can imagine that there was a whole lot of tension. I think had the pony been there and someone with more popular support than Amy Tryon been on the team, they would have felt more supported and perhaps been winning a team medal.

[Sannois]

Before seeing this post from Denny.
My husband gave me the answer, Discipline!!! Not the horse but the humans. Maybe oversimplified but Our laid back western culture is alot to blame I feel.
:yes:

[Hony]

One of the biggest differences I see is that Europe is steeped in a culture of horses. When horses are a way of life breeding programs have more history, riding programs have more history, coaching programs have more history and so on. Many European nations are just centuries ahead of other nations when it comes to horses. In Canada you turn on the tv and you find hockey. In England you turn on the tv and it's horse racing. I can't say what happens when you turn on the tv in Germany but based on this Olympics I suspect it's not swimming!

[Regal Grace]

I said it before and I'll say it again

HIRE CHRIS BARTLE AS US COACH.


if she will have us of course

[pwynnnorman]

Hey, I loved Teddy too, but his absence does not excuse AT's performance (on a very proven albeit difficult horse) Becky''s foggy moment (again, I admire her greatly, but I don't think anyone saw that coming) and Phillips little boot debacle. So we had 5 chances and better than 50% of our riders had major problems. I think if we're going to stay home and not train in Europe, then we need to just accept what we get. If you want to compete successfully on the international stage, you have to get out and do it a lot more often than we do. I have to think that we have a wealth of very qualified people that could do a better job coaching than what's happening. I also think fund raising needs to be addressed more than it is. USETs focus (in those lovely little letters I get from GM and co almost monthly) don't focus on the Eventers much. Why can't the USEA have more focus on that and start farther out and channel $$$ towards the top tier riders competing across the pond? And dammit, I think that somehow, the ULR just think that on that day, they're going to get it done, and well they should. But if there is a major horse change, ie Teddy not being there, then perhaps we should have a deeper well to draw from in terms of experience.

Are you responding to what I said by referring to Teddy? I really hope not because I happen to find it quite offensive when whatever I say is put like my mind never gets off him and/or my only connection to this industry is through him. Both my business and my personality are a bit deeper than that.

What I mean about "the inevitable" is that we do not have a system like theirs that produces reliable results because we are different.

As a result, we must accept the fact that we may never have the depth they have and without that depth, our results are going to vary much more widely than theirs. That hardly means we have bad riders. It just means we don't have the deep pool others have to be consistent in what we produce (or how we produce it, for that matter).

[BaroquePony]

pwynnnorman,

Can't speak for 2ndyrgal, but Carol Ames and I both brought up the loss of Teddy.

My personal opinion is that Teddy was the only reason that I wanted to watch our team this year.

[pwynnnorman]

Baroque, I think I may have misread something somewhere. My apologies to 2ndyrgal if that was the case (a couple of others keep injecting him and other ponies I have into the conversation as though I can only argue from a self-interested/self-centered perspective--it's quite annoying).

[Sebastian]

if she will have us of course


Ummm...if HE will have us... :winkgrin:

Seb :cool:

In regards to the above conversation... I STILL think we're being killed by our own internal politics...

Gina Miles was the LEAST politically correct choice, and yet turned out to be THE RIDE for the american team. Karen and Teddy were a WONDERFUL choice -- Karen and Mandiba were NOT. WHY, WHY, WHY are we sending GREEN horses to the olympics??? That's just foolhardy... And, when I read Becky Holder's comment on Comet -- "his showjumping is still a work in progress..." WHA.....?????? Again, WHY are we sending a horse that is a work in progress...??? NO ONE at that level of competition should be "happy" with 2 rails down in Show Jumping.

There were many many appropriate choices that could have been made for the team and alternates, but instead the team was mismanaged into the gutter...

Ok, second rant over.
Seb :)

[Sannois]

Ummm...if HE will have us... :winkgrin:

Seb :cool:

In regards to the above conversation... I STILL think we're being killed by our own internal politics...

Gina Miles was the LEAST politically correct choice, and yet turned out to be THE RIDE for the american team. Karen and Teddy were a WONDERFUL choice -- Karen and Mandiba were NOT. WHY, WHY, WHY are we sending GREEN horses to the olympics??? That's just foolhardy... And, when I read Becky Holder's comment on Comet -- "his showjumping is still a work in progress..." WHA.....?????? Again, WHY are we sending a horse that is a work in progress...??? NO ONE at that level of competition should be "happy" with 2 rails down in Show Jumping.

There were many many appropriate choices that could have been made for the team and alternates, but instead the team was mismanaged into the gutter...

Ok, second rant over.
Seb :)

Sort of like saying one or two of our gymnasts have not perfected their vaulting but they are getting there. Sometimes they can stick the landing! :no::eek:

[Robby Johnson]

... we don't make our own horses (we buy them made)

I am not sure I understand this entirely. Do you mean the Team horses are bought made, or that "we" as "we" buy made horses?

Regardless, I think there are more of "us" who do these things than who don't.

[poltroon]

Baroque, I think I may have misread something somewhere. My apologies to 2ndyrgal if that was the case (a couple of others keep injecting him and other ponies I have into the conversation as though I can only argue from a self-interested/self-centered perspective--it's quite annoying).

I did it too, I said 4 Californians and a pony. ;)

I was joking of course, but actually I'm wondering if maybe there's something to the Californian angle, since a trek to Rolex from here is practically like entering a foreign country.

[2ndyrgal]

My comments were NOT directed at you. I think that Teddy was definately a gold medal contender, and one hell of a HORSE that will not soon be equaled, height be damned! I meant (and didn't communicate it well) that if we had an untimely death or injury to a horse, perhaps we could have some better, more experienced horses, that perhaps are being ridden by less experienced riders, that the ULR ie, Karen, etc, could draw on in the event of some tragedy. In other words, though I know it is a partnership between horse and rider, perhaps, just for the Olympics, a different pairing could be considered, based on the experienced horse's past performance, current soundness, and on the same for the rider. Like Karen rides some else's advanced horse because the rider isn't as qualified. Just a thought. My apologies, and I should think that Teddy will be in your heart til your last breath. You just don't forget one like that.

[lesson junkie]

We have more choices for horse sports in the US. You don't think there's some barrel racing cowgirl out there that would make a great x-country rider?

We had bad luck this year-it hasn't been that long ago that Custom Made won.

[tx3dayeventer]

...I meant (and didn't communicate it well) that if we had an untimely death or injury to a horse, perhaps we could have some better, more experienced horses, that perhaps are being ridden by less experienced riders, that the ULR ie, Karen, etc, could draw on in the event of some tragedy. In other words, though I know it is a partnership between horse and rider, perhaps, just for the Olympics, a different pairing could be considered, based on the experienced horse's past performance, current soundness, and on the same for the rider. Like Karen rides some else's advanced horse because the rider isn't as qualified. Just a thought....

Only problem here is horse and rider MUST qualify TOGETHER as a team. The rules now (not sure when it went into effect) state that a horse and rider must qualify together and if they had the time to qualify together than surely there would be other equally as qualified pairs.

[LexInVA]

I am not sure I understand this entirely. Do you mean the Team horses are bought made, or that "we" as "we" buy made horses?

Regardless, I think there are more of "us" who do these things than who don't.

I interpreted it as "we" as in the general body of US equestrians. What she says may be a blanket statement but it is very much true in that the majority of newer or less talented riders in all disciplines (Western and European) often prefer to buy (or breed from as it usually goes in the Western world) made horses if they can afford to.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by lesson junlie:

We have more choices for horse sports in the US. You don't think there's some barrel racing cowgirl out there that would make a great x-country rider?

I don't want to come off like a snob, but barrel racers are the last thing we need. I have tried to remain open minded, but I am not impressed with barrel racers in general. Sorry.

[Clear Blue]

Something that could/should be addressed is the injury rates of the top horses that were on the initial qualifying lists. Many of our top pairs were left at home.

Can things be done better to select the best pairs without breaking the horse down on the way to the party?

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by Clear Blue:

Something that could/should be addressed is the injury rates of the top horses that were on the initial qualifying lists. Many of our top pairs were left at home.

Can things be done better to select the best pairs without breaking the horse down on the way to the party?

I beleive you have nailed one of the major problems.

[Kairoshorses]

I don't want to come off like a snob, but barrel racers are the last thing we need. I have tried to remain open minded, but I am not impressed with barrel racers in general. Sorry.

Hmmm. One of the riders in my area I LOVE to watch is a former bull rider. Not always the prettiest, but he gets the job done, and sticks like a tick. Plus, he takes EXCELLENT care of his horses. So keep that mind open! :lol:

[poltroon]

Something that could/should be addressed is the injury rates of the top horses that were on the initial qualifying lists. Many of our top pairs were left at home.

Can things be done better to select the best pairs without breaking the horse down on the way to the party?

We have a natural disadvantage in the US in terms of the footing and terrain we work on, which is harder than what they're working with in Britain.

We have the technology to build fabulous all-weather arenas with great resiliance, but they cost as much as an international level horse.

[arena run]

I don't want to come off like a snob, but barrel racers are the last thing we need. I have tried to remain open minded, but I am not impressed with barrel racers in general. Sorry.

Hmmm. One of the riders in my area I LOVE to watch is a former bull rider. Not always the prettiest, but he gets the job done, and sticks like a tick. Plus, he takes EXCELLENT care of his horses. So keep that mind open! :lol:




Weeeell, I'm one of those barrel-racing cowgirls, and so is my daughter. I kinda have to agree w/BaroquePony on this one. :) There's just not much evidence of 'learned' riding from the local set of speed event riders. :) I made sure my daughter had a solid base (dressage, western pleasure, trail class, and jumping) BUT... not many mothers do that.

On the other hand -- SURE! There are many barrel-racing cowgirls out there who have the heart and the drive make the next great XC rider. But only inasmuch as there are girls from any walk of life who have the heart and drive to do the same. All it would take is the right horse, lots of work, and the right trainer. :D :D sylvia

PS... I think dudes on bulls ride much better than girls on barrel horses, imo. If you fall off your barrel horse you might hit the arena dirt but your mount won't come after you w/front hooves and horns. Bull-riding cowboys learn to STAY ON, eh? <lol>

[Daatje]

Ummm...if HE will have us... :winkgrin:

Check the title to post #27......I think they did indeed mean "she" (Lucinda Green) ;)

[redlight]

I think the results have to do with the current state of eventing in this country. I am looking forward to watching the US show jumping riders as at least we have a legitimate shot at a medal. Thanks to George Morris and his program we have a team capable of bringing home medals on the international stage. If you are on the sj team you are on George's program, not your own program. Maybe this is what the event team needs. With the salary we pay for CMP to be our chef we should be getting better results.

I also agree that we shouldn't be sending green horses to the Olympics and if we don't have enough seasoned horses to compete at that level then something is wrong with our system.

We can either keep doing the same thing and getting the same results or we can commit to making some hard but needed changes to help the sport flourish.