ESPN talks about the dangers of eventing now!!! [Archive]

BigRuss1996

Aug. 12, 2008, 08:21 PM

well... just got off the phone with him actually.... I had already heard the same things from him many times as things have been discussed over the last few months....

I think all in all he is right about alot of things,but mostly I love the part where he tells the people making excuses to "Shut Up"...didn't expect that to be in there...ha ha ha. It is so true though....

For the record... he doesn't totally agree with the collapsible fences but other wise he shares many of the same concerns for the sport as the majority here. I personally think the collapsible fences are worth a try to an extent.

I think the sport is in a sad state of affairs and hopefully there will be some real change before it is too late.... and yes...it is very sad what is happening with the sport today.

What did you think of Bruce's comments since you know him well enough

poopoo

Aug. 12, 2008, 08:36 PM

Anyone know how to look at that ESPN video? I'm trying to get it on E:60, but can only get that one about the old swimmer taking all those precursors to steriods.....

I would just love to watch Old School telling people to shut up. That's just so Bruce....

natb

Aug. 12, 2008, 08:42 PM

As someone who is very new to riding and someone who hopes to get into eventing I found the piece a bit discouraging. I have been following everything that has been going on in the sport and agree that what has been happening is quite scary but sometimes these shows make it seem as if that is ALL that is happening in the sport.

They mentioned that 30,000 people event and I would assume that many of them have never had a severe accident like the ones shown on this piece. That isn't to say that things shouldn't change for the upper level riders but personally I love watching eventing and really think that those riders have an unbelievable connection with those horses and you can truly see that manifestation in an sport like this.

In addition a few of the falls they showed (I recalled a couple from Rolex) no one was hurt in. People fall off of horses all the time and most don't die.

Just my 2 cents for all its worth (probably not even that much).

Anne FS

Aug. 12, 2008, 08:58 PM

It doesn't matter if there are 30,000 people in eventing or 3 million. FIFTEEN PEOPLE DIED IN THE PAST TWO YEARS.

If 15 NASCAR drivers, 15 football players, 15 hockey players, or 15 high-school sports players, 15 anything, DIED in the past 2 years those sports would be shut down. ONE NFL player died of heatstroke a couple of years ago and the entire protocol for practices changed. ONE.

Denny was right when he said that you simply cannot have a sport that destroys its athletes.

BigRuss1996

Aug. 12, 2008, 09:00 PM

Also some of the footage was old...though I must say Laines fall on my big TV was a bit rough to watch.I saw it origionally on my computer screen and they kept reshowing it.

Natb.... I can see where it would be a bit discouraging but it also does show the worst case scenario of the sport and I think people SHOULD be aware of what they are getting into. Eventing is not show hunters...never has been. It is relatively safe at the lower levels but even there you have no guarantees. The best advice I can give anyone getting into the sport is...DO your homework...research the people you are thinking of training with,make sure they know what they are doing and that they have been in the sport a while. DON'T compete above your comfort level no mater what everyone else in your barn is doing, or your friends are doing. It takes years to make an upper level horse and should take years to become an upper level rider if someone tells you they can do it faster....run do not walk to the nearest exit. If something feels wrong it probably is ...go with your gut and most of all HAVE FUN it is what it is all about. If you try it and it isn't fun by all means don't do it. Not everyone is an event rider there is no shame there. I have friends who love to come watch but you couldn't pay them to actually compete and they are pretty good riders themselves.
Don't let the program scare you away but do let it give you a healthy respect for the sport. I have been an event rider for almost 30 years now (wow I feel old...haha) and I have competed through the advanced level. I still get nervous before xco even at Novice....heck I get nervous just walking out on the course but it is a healthy nervous I have respect for the sport and all that it is. It is a wonderful sport and it really helps you discover yourself and what you are made of as a person....it builds character and builds self esteem. It can also humble you like nothing else. Most of all it is a wonderful huge family of people who love their horses and their sport through the good and the bad.

As someone who is very new to riding and someone who hopes to get into eventing I found the piece a bit discouraging. I have been following everything that has been going on in the sport and agree that what has been happening is quite scary but sometimes these shows make it seem as if that is ALL that is happening in the sport.

They mentioned that 30,000 people event and I would assume that many of them have never had a severe accident like the ones shown on this piece. That isn't to say that things shouldn't change for the upper level riders but personally I love watching eventing and really think that those riders have an unbelievable connection with those horses and you can truly see that manifestation in an sport like this.

In addition a few of the falls they showed (I recalled a couple from Rolex) no one was hurt in. People fall off of horses all the time and most don't die.

Just my 2 cents for all its worth (probably not even that much).

natb

Aug. 12, 2008, 09:17 PM

Thanks for the response BigRuss.

At 31 years old my own fear will be sure to keep me from getting pushed too quickly ;)

What drew me to eventing is the relationship that the rider really has to develop with the horse, they really have to know each other and each other's intricacies.
I don't see any 4 stars or the Olympics for me anytime soon.
thanks again

GraceThe Mare

Aug. 12, 2008, 09:25 PM

is the clip listed under E60? And by what name?

deltawave

Aug. 12, 2008, 09:33 PM

If 15 NASCAR drivers, 15 football players, 15 hockey players, or 15 high-school sports players, 15 anything, DIED in the past 2 years those sports would be shut down.

Your point is well taken and I don't have all the statistics, but I'd be really surprised if there were fewer than a couple of dozen deaths per year in high school athletes, from various causes.

The denominator really DOES matter. Sports are dangerous, LIFE is dangerous. A 0.0001% fatality rate per competitor per year is low. One in a thousand is high. We need good statistics, because crummy statistics are about as bad as just making stuff up--subject to spin and misinterpretation.

RiverBendPol

Aug. 12, 2008, 10:00 PM

lyssap39

Aug. 12, 2008, 10:16 PM

I have to say, I am disappointed with the clips that ESPN was showing. Most of those vidoes were older (one of which is of Matt Ryan from the 96 Burghley where he almost fell off at the bottom the stairs going into the first of the one stide arrow heads). I also wish that they would stop interviewing the mother who lost both of her daughters in riding accidents (she is now sueing the USEA saying that it is their fault for her daughters death because the jumps are too hard so that more people will watch). I understand her concern and feel horrible for her and what has happened to her family, but I have heard many different things saying that her daughter shouldn't even have been out on the course that day and that she should have been pulled off because of reckless riding. I understand that what has happened in eventing recently has been horrible and I am all for trying to figure out what we can do to try adn fix it, but I think that making completly collapsible jumps is not the answer (idiots will still be idiots which doesn't solve the true issues). I pray that we can all work together to find a solution so that our wonderful sport is no longer the topic of conversation when talking about the most dangerous sports in the world.

LessonLearned

Aug. 12, 2008, 10:25 PM

Looks like it will re-air on Saturday at 4 EST.

Anne FS

Aug. 12, 2008, 10:43 PM

For all of you who missed it, check your listings (Search for a Show is usually the easiest way). In Harrisburg, PA on Comcast Digital, the E:60 show will air again this Thursday at 7:30pm BUT ON ESPN2.

Hopefully they'll have it up on the E:60 website before then, but if not, you can all catch it again.

WW_Queen

Aug. 12, 2008, 10:58 PM

If 15 NASCAR drivers, 15 football players, 15 hockey players, or 15 high-school sports players, 15 anything, DIED in the past 2 years those sports would be shut down.

Ha! I'd like to see that day.

I read on ESPN that one out of every 69 NFL players born since 1955 is now dead due to poor weight management while in their competitive prime.

I also read that more people are killed by donkeys annually than are killed in plane crashes.

I ALSO read that in 1911 Jack Daniel, founder of the Tennessee whiskey distillery, died of blood poisoning six years after receiving a toe injury when he kicked his safe in anger at being unable to remember its combination code.

(Darren C. parallel anyone? Cause and effect?)

Carol Ames

Aug. 13, 2008, 12:41 AM

can you please give a link?

Anne FS

Aug. 13, 2008, 12:47 AM

I read on ESPN that one out of every 69 NFL players born since 1955 is now dead due to poor weight management while in their competitive prime.

WTH does that have to do with dying from injuries incurred while playing the game? How many people born since 1955 who *weren't* football players are now dead because of "poor weight management while in their prime"? :rolleyes:

Anne FS

Aug. 13, 2008, 12:52 AM

but I think that making completly collapsible jumps is not the answer (idiots will still be idiots which doesn't solve the true issues).

What do you all think of Denny's suggestion of papier-mache jumps, i.e. something that looks solid but is not?

As horses rap them or knock them, would an event have to have multiple copies of the same jump to replace it????

rennyben

Aug. 13, 2008, 12:58 AM

Just finished watching it on Tivo... ouch. :(

It's one thing for eventers to be hashing out this stuff on our forums, reading articles about our sport in magazines. It's quite another to see the problems put forth so blatantly and supported visually with such graphic video footage. It makes me wonder what the casual viewer will think. It makes me worried about what effect this will have on the future of eventing. I hope it's for the good and stimulates positive changes.

It was harsh seeing the crashes on video again -- and I was standing near the flower basket when Laine fell and at the oxer where Dornin fell -- so I had seen those falls in person, but on TV, it just seemed scarier. I think, if I thought this was brutal and scary to watch on TV, what must the average viewer be thinking?

It was ironic that I had just finished watching the Olympic SJ (again Tivoed) and was saying how I can't wait to event again (I have a baby due in ONE week! And, oh yeah, that whole cash shortage that's occurring/bad economy thing may prevent a quick reentry as well.... but I digress....) So I say I can't wait to do this again, then watch the ESPN segment. Afterwards, I look at my son, my very preggo belly and my husband and think, why couldn't I be into something safe and cheap, like uh, speed walking!

I was really glad that they had footage of the kids jumping around. I loved the little app pony -- that made me smile and remind me why I love eventing. :)

rennyben

Aug. 13, 2008, 01:05 AM

What do you all think of Denny's suggestion of papier-mache jumps, i.e. something that looks solid but is not?

As horses rap them or knock them, would an event have to have multiple copies of the same jump to replace it????

You know, I was thinking of this... and I remember somebody years ago, telling me not to use PVC pipes as the top rails of my homemade stadium jumps because when the horse hits them, they're so light the horse learns not to respect them. Now, the person who told me that could be a moron and I could be living with this statement etched in my head as "TRUTH" for no reason. I would wonder what the long-term effects of paper mache jumps would be... ie the first time a horse skims it, and it just breaks apart, would the horse then think, Huh, this is like those brush jumps -- no need to be careful here, I can just jump through them.

I would like to hear what Denny thinks would happen - as I'm sure he's thought of this. I just don't have the experience to know what to expect. Maybe they would be sturdier?

adamsmom

Aug. 13, 2008, 01:10 AM

LLDM

Aug. 13, 2008, 08:47 AM

17 skiers died on the slopes in Colorado in less than 6 weeks this past winter.
In 2006, approximately 20 high school and college football players died, mostly from heat stroke.

Just curious - where did you get these stats?

SCFarm

RAyers

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:02 AM

17 skiers died on the slopes in Colorado in less than 6 weeks this past winter.
In 2006, approximately 20 high school and college football players died, mostly from heat stroke.

I doubt the 6 week stat. I do agree with the 17 deaths as this was one of the more deadly seasons. If I remember correctly, the 17 deaths were reported as the TOTAL deaths in our local news outlets.

At the same time, the ski industry is VERY proactive in safety (e.g. mandatory helmet laws etc.) because of the criminal and civil liability exposure. This is something equestrian sports has NOT experienced. Colorado has all sorts of laws on the books regarding skier responsibility associated with potential criminal acts on the ski slopes (unsafe skiing resulting in death, injury) as well as ski lifts and in other areas.

Now the death rate is MINISCULE compared to eventing given there are somewhere around 52 million skier visit per year. In Colorado the death rate is 0.53 per 1.88 MILLION visits. Contrast that to the FEI numbers and eventing is STILL INSANELY more dangerous at 0.33 per 303 starters. That is almost 6,000 times the death rate!

By the way, these numbers are based on the FEI eventing safety statistics published and a study published by H. Xiang in the journal, Injury, Deaths associated with snow skiing in Colorado 1980–1981 to 2000–2001 ski seasons. Volume 34 , Issue 12 , Pages 892 - 896.

Reed

One Star

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:07 AM

You know, I was thinking of this... and I remember somebody years ago, telling me not to use PVC pipes as the top rails of my homemade stadium jumps because when the horse hits them, they're so light the horse learns not to respect them. Now, the person who told me that could be a moron and I could be living with this statement etched in my head as "TRUTH" for no reason. I would wonder what the long-term effects of paper mache jumps would be... ie the first time a horse skims it, and it just breaks apart, would the horse then think, Huh, this is like those brush jumps -- no need to be careful here, I can just jump through them.

I would like to hear what Denny thinks would happen - as I'm sure he's thought of this. I just don't have the experience to know what to expect. Maybe they would be sturdier?

Some of our top level riders have already broached this topic. Mike Winter and Kyle Carter have started a company called Safer building Materials which is producing frangible XC jump logs made of expanded polystyrene, designed to absorb energy when horses hit them and are frangible when hit with enough force and/or velocity. They debuted them in various incarnations at the Florida Horse Park for the Canadian Team mandatory outing prior to departure for Hong Kong. They look fabulous, can be lifted by two women at either end, and worked like a charm. The horses don't know they aren't solid logs, and they were sturdy enough to take a licking throughout the course of the cross country outing on Saturday. This is definitely a step in the right direction.

You can read more about them here: http://www.eventingnewsusa.com/useventhorse.php?news=20080719A

KSevnter

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:12 AM

Did anyone notice that while Mrs. Erikkson was speaking they showed a newspaper article titled "Girl who died loved horses" or something like that, the caption below the headline read, "Parents still supports equestrian events like the one she died in" or something to that effect.

I wish that the reporter would have pressed her on her sudden change of heart.

adamsmom

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:12 AM

Just curious - where did you get these stats?

SCFarm
http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/aug07/muellerfootballdeaths080207.html

There were a total of 20 deaths in 2006; two sandlot players, three in college, 13 middle and high schoolers. Only one death was directly related to the game; a 17-year-old high school player who received a spinal cord injury when tackled in a practice drill.

And I may be mistaken about the length of time involved in the skiing deaths in Colorado alone, but I do know it was more than 15 over a 2 year period. http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_8824218

My only point being that making statements such as "if x number of people were killed in any other sport, they'd shut it down" is neither accurate, nor productive.

Take a look at the NCAA stats on catastrophic injury and fatality sometime. It's not pretty either.

Again, not making excuses, just asking for accuracy.

BigRuss1996

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:13 AM

I saw that!.... They look like they may be worth trying as they don't just fall apart on contact so the average horse hitting it will still respect solid obstacles.

Some of our top level riders have already broached this topic. Mike Winter and Kyle Carter have started a company called Safer building Materials which is producing frangible XC jump logs made of expanded polystyrene, designed to absorb energy when horses hit them and are frangible when hit with enough force and/or velocity. They debuted them in various incarnations at the Florida Horse Park for the Canadian Team mandatory outing prior to departure for Hong Kong. They look fabulous, can be lifted by two women at either end, and worked like a charm. The horses don't know they aren't solid logs, and they were sturdy enough to take a licking throughout the course of the cross country outing on Saturday. This is definitely a step in the right direction.

You can read more about them here: http://www.eventingnewsusa.com/useventhorse.php?news=20080719A

Jealoushe

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:22 AM

Why should we have to change the jumps for bad riding/horses, why not change the riding/horses!!! Christ for 30+ years these jumps hardly posed such a problem...

flyingchange

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:23 AM

Also some of the footage was old...though I must say Laines fall on my big TV was a bit rough to watch.I saw it origionally on my computer screen and they kept reshowing it.

Natb.... I can see where it would be a bit discouraging but it also does show the worst case scenario of the sport and I think people SHOULD be aware of what they are getting into. Eventing is not show hunters...never has been. It is relatively safe at the lower levels but even there you have no guarantees. The best advice I can give anyone getting into the sport is...DO your homework...research the people you are thinking of training with,make sure they know what they are doing and that they have been in the sport a while. DON'T compete above your comfort level no mater what everyone else in your barn is doing, or your friends are doing. It takes years to make an upper level horse and should take years to become an upper level rider if someone tells you they can do it faster....run do not walk to the nearest exit. If something feels wrong it probably is ...go with your gut and most of all HAVE FUN it is what it is all about. If you try it and it isn't fun by all means don't do it. Not everyone is an event rider there is no shame there. I have friends who love to come watch but you couldn't pay them to actually compete and they are pretty good riders themselves.
Don't let the program scare you away but do let it give you a healthy respect for the sport. I have been an event rider for almost 30 years now (wow I feel old...haha) and I have competed through the advanced level. I still get nervous before xco even at Novice....heck I get nervous just walking out on the course but it is a healthy nervous I have respect for the sport and all that it is. It is a wonderful sport and it really helps you discover yourself and what you are made of as a person....it builds character and builds self esteem. It can also humble you like nothing else. Most of all it is a wonderful huge family of people who love their horses and their sport through the good and the bad.

Wow. I think I need to print this out, frame it, and hang it in my tack room. Thank you for so elequently summarizing so much of what this sport is about to so many people.

findeight

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:44 AM

Bruce's lead statement...

"Rich kids get horses bought for them they cannot ride and are allowed to move up".

IMHO think that is the root of the problem put rather bluntly.

He also added "Eventing has a culture that equates safety concerns with whining". And several less then favorable references to CMP and his contributions to this culture were made-including his refusal to participate in the program.

Right afterword I pick up a back issue of COTH to get caught up on reading and see that statement "If we take danger out it's not Eventing":no:.

Sooo, how about we take death out? And, percentage wise, there are way too many however you wish to rack the statistics.

That is not even considering the dead horses.

Like it or not, I really suggest y'all watch this-but it IS tough to see so be warned. Don't see at as inappropriate though, least IMO. These are public events.

DLee

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:02 AM

RAyers

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:30 AM

Bruce's lead statement...

"Rich kids get horses bought for them they cannot ride and are allowed to move up".

IMHO think that is the root of the problem put rather bluntly.

Here is a great irony, in the latest Eventing USA magazine, a big article about Cayla Kitayama, extolling her efforts is front and center. Hmmm,... she is 21, rode at Rolex, me thinks she is not making all of the effort herself. While she got a round and can ride, it is obvious from the article her family bought the horses and finance her time traveling across the US. Where is her effort? Has she trained a horse from the ground up? Did she hold a job to pay bills? Is she fighting a debilitating disease? I don't know from the article. All I see is the glorification of the fact a 21 year-old person, subsidized by her parents ran Rolex.

So, besides your question about having risk and preventing death, I will point out the hypocrisy of how we say riders need more experience, mileage and how kids are buying their way to the top yet cheer a 21 year-old as a great example of what an eventer is. Disappointingly, to me, in the article Cayla holds Lainey Ashker, a person who it has been independently verified ran a horse recovering from colic at Rolex, as a good friend and role model.

I am not disparaging Cayla but pointing out how the wires are crossed in the messages. To me it helps make the case that ESPN brings about.

Reed

findeight

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:35 AM

Well RAyers, there you have it.

Your example pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

Perhaps Eventing needs to look at who the "role models" are.

Perhaps one who speaks the truth is better the one considered a "close friend".

But we don't seem to handle truth too well in any sport. Not PC.

deltawave

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:44 AM

Personally I don't really feel rider deaths are the problem, it's the horse deaths.

I see where you're coming from, but I totally can't go along with feeling that rider deaths are not the problem. If horses don't fall, riders don't die. They are not separate issues.

KSevnter

Aug. 13, 2008, 11:01 AM

Here is a great irony, in the latest Eventing USA magazine, a big article about Cayla Kitayama, extolling her efforts is front and center. Hmmm,... she is 21, rode at Rolex, me thinks she is not making all of the effort herself. While she got a round and can ride, it is obvious from the article her family bought the horses and finance her time traveling across the US. Where is her effort? Has she trained a horse from the ground up? Did she hold a job to pay bills? Is she fighting a debilitating disease? I don't know from the article. All I see is the glorification of the fact a 21 year-old person, subsidized by her parents ran Rolex.

So, besides your question about having risk and preventing death, I will point out the hypocrisy of how we say riders need more experience, mileage and how kids are buying their way to the top yet cheer a 21 year-old as a great example of what an eventer is. Disappointingly, to me, in the article Cayla holds Lainey Ashker, a person who it has been independently verified ran a horse recovering from colic at Rolex, as a good friend and role model.

I am not disparaging Cayla but pointing out how the wires are crossed in the messages. To me it helps make the case that ESPN brings about.

Reed

I read that article this morning while I was at the gym and was thinking about Bruce's comments as well. I have little doubt she is a good rider, but still she notes that she worked hard in college monday-thursday and then took off for Aiken to lesson on friday and compete on the weekend. We literally have taken a page out of the H/J playbook, get to a certain level of competency, stick the horse in training and ride and show on the weekends. Only we are talking about eventing and if you miss those jumps don't fall down.

I don't know her and I am not picking on her ability to ride, just noting the new trend in bringing up our Y/Rs.

GreyDun

Aug. 13, 2008, 11:18 AM

Here is a great irony, in the latest Eventing USA magazine, a big article about Cayla Kitayama, extolling her efforts is front and center. Hmmm,... she is 21, rode at Rolex, me thinks she is not making all of the effort herself. While she got a round and can ride, it is obvious from the article her family bought the horses and finance her time traveling across the US. Where is her effort? Has she trained a horse from the ground up? Did she hold a job to pay bills? Is she fighting a debilitating disease? I don't know from the article. All I see is the glorification of the fact a 21 year-old person, subsidized by her parents ran Rolex.

So, besides your question about having risk and preventing death, I will point out the hypocrisy of how we say riders need more experience, mileage and how kids are buying their way to the top yet cheer a 21 year-old as a great example of what an eventer is. Disappointingly, to me, in the article Cayla holds Lainey Ashker, a person who it has been independently verified ran a horse recovering from colic at Rolex, as a good friend and role model.

I am not disparaging Cayla but pointing out how the wires are crossed in the messages. To me it helps make the case that ESPN brings about.

Reed

Cayla said in the article, "Laine is a really good friend." She didn't say that Lainey is her role model. She said a friend. Sometimes friends do things that we don't always like or approve of...

I don't see glorification, I see an intelligent young girl who's had the opportunity a lot of us would love - the chance to have ride an awesome, experienced horse, and have supporting parents, along with training with some of the best riders in the world. Granted, she's had it easier (monetarily speaking) than most folks, but it's not like she doesn't work her butt off for it. She caught my eye this past year or so because she's a lovely rider, and doing everything she can for a bright future, and I didn't know much about her.

Jealoushe

Aug. 13, 2008, 11:28 AM

I can't have respect for anyone who rides their horse only on weekends and wants to show at Rolex...or is showing at Rolex

IFG

Aug. 13, 2008, 11:38 AM

RAyers

Aug. 13, 2008, 11:45 AM

Granted, she's had it easier (monetarily speaking) than most folks, but it's not like she doesn't work her butt off for it. She caught my eye this past year or so because she's a lovely rider, and doing everything she can for a bright future, and I didn't know much about her.

Come on, she is one of the privileged that Bruce Davidson is talking about. Stop making an excuse. The only thing she is working her butt off is to ride better. She is NOT an example of working her butt off to be a good student AND to ride. If that is the case, I have 3 or 4 kids in my own program who crush her in "working their butt off" to get where they want. When you have money, being in college is easy, unless your decide to not even study, period.

I agree that Cayla is a lovely rider. I've seen her go many times, including riding against her. I also bet a lot of us would be lovely riders at her age given her circumstance.

As for her relationship with Ashker, how many times were your friends as much your role models at that age? Cayla defended Ashker in her quote while Ashker has proved otherwise. That, to me tells me she looks upon Ashker as a role model/mentor.

Look at the few responses here. The article, as written, sends the wrong message.

Reed

annikak

Aug. 13, 2008, 11:46 AM

GreyDun- The article was very nice, and she is a great person- I got a call from a person that was with her in the box, and she had only wonderful things to say about her- inc. that she KNEW she had to not ride for a time, given that she kept her promise her her parents. She sounds like a great kid, but the rub remains...

A lot of what she is is what scares a lot of us. She decided to get on and do it, and did it because she could; money was a factor. Her horse was an experienced "been there, done that" kind of horse, (and I am sure had the pricetag to boot) and she had the ability to do things that allowed her to compete even though she was not at the barn every day. I am glad (as a parent!) that her parents stressed school, and she knew that was the path she had to take, even though she knew it was not the ideal one for good riding. But, if she had not had the money (and I am sure everyone of us here would love that kind of money ;)) this could not have happened. I will say, however, that that same money got her amazing coaches, and she listens to them. That is good...very good. Money does not buy common sense, which she seems to have.

I think that reading the article, which I enjoyed very much, shows that she is a well balanced kind of girl. I guess maybe the difference might be parents being good guides:yes:, and for that, she is very fortunate. But, her path was paved in a way that can go either way- she did very well, but, the fact remains, a lot of what worries us is what she is...money can buy good horses that are better then the rider is. Sara D said something like that in the last COTH magazine. It was a terrific quote- something like " Sometimes you have a horse that gets you to a place you don't belong." meaning that the riding is not up to the level of the horse/course. I even think Buck said it to her, not sure...but maybe.

It's just different for C...the factors just seem to work for her. (good parenting, I believe... has much impact, don't you think?)

JER

Aug. 13, 2008, 11:48 AM

I am in total agreement. I gagged when I read this. What will happen to the sport if we make eventing safe enough for people to compete at the upper levels when they only ride 2-3 days per week?

I agree with this in theory. But when I started thinking it over, I remembered a PH article by Torrance Watkins that I read sometime in the 80s. She was talking about her early days on the team and how she worked all week in NYC, then drove to VA to ride on weekends. IIRC, she was not the only team person who did this. Bill Steinkraus comes to mind as another -- he was an attorney and competed during the years of the oppressive 'amateur rule'.

Eventing has a number of successful competitors who work real-world jobs and can't ride every day. (I believe Kevin Baumgartner is one of them.) Even Reiner Klimke had lots of business commitments that took him away from riding.

I think it's possible to be a successful weekend rider if the rider has a solid foundation and good horsemanship skills. I don't know if a YR can get those skills riding/showing on weekends -- I think the skills you'd develop would be about showing rather than riding.

GreyDun

Aug. 13, 2008, 12:03 PM

Come on, she is one of the privileged that Bruce Davidson is talking about. Stop making an excuse. The only thing she is working her butt off is to ride better. She is NOT an example of working her butt off to be a good student AND to ride. If that is the case, I have 3 or 4 kids in my own program who crush her in "working their butt off" to get where they want. When you have money, being in college is easy, unless your decide to not even study, period.

As for her relationship with Ashker, how many times were your friends as much your role models at that age? Cayla defended Ashker in her quote while Ashker has proved otherwise. That, to me tells me she looks upon Ashker as a role model/mentor.

Reed

So, if she's only "working her butt off" to ride better, why is that such a bad thing? Okay, so she has money. But that doesn't mean she gets her degree handed to her - it just makes it easier to afford college. Heck, if I had money, you'd bet that I'd be spending it on top notch trainers and the most experienced horse I could get! She's doing the right thing in that regard.

Also, you're implying that Laine WAS a role model, not just a friend. I have plenty of friends that aren't my role models - sure Cayla's young, but she obviously has the right role models in her life (Boyd & Silva, Phillip, her parents, etc.). In any case, it doesn't matter. She's working with top trainers to do the best she can. I have to admit, I'm not fond of people who only ride on the weekends and then try to show at the four-star level...doesn't sound good. But somehow, she's able to do it. She's had good results, and is learning about the sport as best she can. Heck, she had a pretty darn good ride at Rolex this year, I have to say...

The article's already published and this entire issue of Eventing USA was dedicated to safety...what more would you like? An apology?

KSevnter

Aug. 13, 2008, 12:17 PM

I really think it just evidences the cultural shift more than anything else. There were plenty of Y/Rs a decade ago that had $$ but I don't recall them having their horses in full training while they attended school. I can't recall a single one actually, but again none of them were doing 4stars either. The ones I knew, myself included, had our one */** horse with us which and trotted or galloped at 5 a.m. or whenever we could get out there. I attended college with a jumper rider who was in the Chronicle often and I remember marveling at the fact that she just left a car at the Palm Beach airport and flew back and forth during the winter show season.

I was lucky, I was well-funded and supported, and I agree I had it easy in college. I had an internship and I waited tables, but my life was easy because I didn't have to worry about paying my tuition or feeding myself and I recognized it even then.

My best friend is the type that Reed speaks of, put herself through a top school on loans, jobs and scholarship, went back to do her PhD and worked 4 jobs to do it. Paid off though since her advisors said her dissertation will "change the way the subject matter is taught for years to come." I look at her and I know I haven't a clue what hard work really is.

Edited to add: Cayla is certainly not the only Y/R I know that has her horse in training during the school year, that is why I think it is a cultural shift.

Sannois

Aug. 13, 2008, 12:22 PM

Why should we have to change the jumps for bad riding/horses, why not change the riding/horses!!! Christ for 30+ years these jumps hardly posed such a problem...

Gee you think the Germans or Brits or Aussies need paper jumps??
:no:

denny

Aug. 13, 2008, 12:32 PM

If riders and horses stop getting killed, as the British youngster did last week, then we don`t need to explore safety options.

I went to 3 events this past spring, at which 3 horses died.

I have 3 former students, one is dead, 2 are paralysed.

Yes I want us to explore safer options, and fences that collapse MIGHT be one of several answers.

Did you watch the falls at the Olympics? Any one of them might just as easily been much worse. We (our sport) was lucky.

HotIITrot

Aug. 13, 2008, 12:34 PM

Also some of the footage was old...though I must say Laines fall on my big TV was a bit rough to watch.I saw it origionally on my computer screen and they kept reshowing it.

Natb.... I can see where it would be a bit discouraging but it also does show the worst case scenario of the sport and I think people SHOULD be aware of what they are getting into. Eventing is not show hunters...never has been. It is relatively safe at the lower levels but even there you have no guarantees. The best advice I can give anyone getting into the sport is...DO your homework...research the people you are thinking of training with,make sure they know what they are doing and that they have been in the sport a while. DON'T compete above your comfort level no mater what everyone else in your barn is doing, or your friends are doing. It takes years to make an upper level horse and should take years to become an upper level rider if someone tells you they can do it faster....run do not walk to the nearest exit. If something feels wrong it probably is ...go with your gut and most of all HAVE FUN it is what it is all about. If you try it and it isn't fun by all means don't do it. Not everyone is an event rider there is no shame there. I have friends who love to come watch but you couldn't pay them to actually compete and they are pretty good riders themselves.
Don't let the program scare you away but do let it give you a healthy respect for the sport. I have been an event rider for almost 30 years now (wow I feel old...haha) and I have competed through the advanced level. I still get nervous before xco even at Novice....heck I get nervous just walking out on the course but it is a healthy nervous I have respect for the sport and all that it is. It is a wonderful sport and it really helps you discover yourself and what you are made of as a person....it builds character and builds self esteem. It can also humble you like nothing else. Most of all it is a wonderful huge family of people who love their horses and their sport through the good and the bad.

Wow. I think I need to print this out, frame it, and hang it in my tack room. Thank you for so elequently summarizing so much of what this sport is about to so many people.

:yes: Agreed.

That was very well put BigRuss1996.

Albion

Aug. 13, 2008, 12:43 PM

My best friend is the type that Reed speaks of, put herself through a top school on loans, jobs and scholarship, went back to do her PhD and worked 4 jobs to do it. Paid off though since her advisors said her dissertation will "change the way the subject matter is taught for years to come." I look at her and I know I haven't a clue what hard work really is.

OK, I'll bite - my advisors would be HORRIFIED if any of us had to work four jobs to complete our PhDs. Actually, they would never let us get in such a position - it's antithetical to the way they think we should be spending time. I'm not even sure if my funding agreement would allow me to work full time. Many of them don't.

That's wonderful your friend has worked very hard for her PhD & it's paid off, but many of us don't have to hold down 4 jobs - indeed, would not be ALLOWED to work like that outside of school - and are still working our asses off. Believe me, I know what hard work is. I know what heavy expectations are. Having advisors who know that students not having to worry about making rent or putting more than ramen on the table means we are better able to concentrate on the whole reason we're in graduate school doesn't mean we're fat, lazy, and don't know what it means to work hard and produce high quality work. :no:

I'm not comfortable with the idea of a 'weekend warrior' competing at the upper echelons of any sport, but there are plenty of terrifying riders who are not wealthy and don't have the resources to get themselves quality help or a suitable horse (there are riders who have the money & don't, for whatever reason, of course). Cinderella stories are great, but it seems like 'having money' is frequently a dirty word on a lot of these boards.

RAyers

Aug. 13, 2008, 12:44 PM

The article's already published and this entire issue of Eventing USA was dedicated to safety...what more would you like? An apology?

No, not an apology.

If the entire issue was dedicated to safety, why is this article there? In what way did this article contribute to the safety conversation? In this exact same issue, the minutes of the Safety Summit mention cultural shift. Is this article related to that? I saw the realtionship of the other pieces but not this one, especially in context with the ESPN E.60 expose.

Again, this article exemplies one aspect of safety that many folks are against! That is the buying of a horse to simply move up levels.

To stop using Cayla as an example let's consider this from more reasoned approach.

Say rider A rides every day. She has given up school to be the best and is working hard to move up the levels, maybe she does the working student routine. Rider B rides every few days but has the money to buy a top horse and can afford to get top training all the while attending a good college in another state.

Now, we know that Rider B can not be spending all of her time working at being a better rider since she has to go to school. Rider A, while not "educated" spends hours in the saddle every day. Who gets more mileage? Who has more experience? Sure, Rider B has a better education, but an educationally based system in eveniting is an impossibility given that only experience can teach one how to ride problems.

So who is the "better" rider? Who is the better example?

WE are still fixated on the idea SAFETY can be taught by trainers and riders who may have no idea what safety is. Yes, it is our RESPONSIBILITY. That is exactly what Bruce Davidson alluded to in the expose. Even in the latest Eventing USA, it is highlighted that safety comes from LOTS of experience as well as education (5 leg approach). So, to me, the piece on Cayla exemplifies the culture shift away from what others are saying safety is all about. Cayla bought her ready made horse. She is funded so she does not have to work at the hard things other than riding when she can.

Is this what we want eventing to become? In Sydney the average age of the team was 39!!!! We had people with miles and EXPERIENCE. They did not "buy" their way to the top.

Reed

NeverTime

Aug. 13, 2008, 01:13 PM

I've met her and she impressed me. I love that she's from out West. But I had trouble with the headline on that article, something like "the hard road to the top" or whatever.
(This comment has nothing to do with safety, but GreyDun, since you are posting, I just have to get it off my chest...)
If buying a made four-star horse and putting it in full training with Phillip Dutton so you can ride on the weekends between classes is the "hard road," I'm curious as to what the headline writer would qualify as the "easy road." I think that getting to Rolex by 21 is something of an indication in itself of the lack of bumps in the road.
It's not a knock on Cayla and I was really interested to read the story. It just bugs me when things get framed like Cinderella stories when they aren't. Especially when one of the great things about eventing is the REAL Cinderella stories that abound -- many of which your magazine certainly HAS written, not to imply you haven't!
Personally, I'm far more impressed by Cayla's ability to get to the three-star level with her first horse, when she was based in California, than her ability to get toted around Rolex on Werner's horse (that would be the commentator's general description of it), but the first part of that story was reduced to just a mention of her horse's name.

GreyDun

Aug. 13, 2008, 01:18 PM

KSevnter

Aug. 13, 2008, 02:08 PM

OK, I'll bite - my advisors would be HORRIFIED if any of us had to work four jobs to complete our PhDs. Actually, they would never let us get in such a position - it's antithetical to the way they think we should be spending time. I'm not even sure if my funding agreement would allow me to work full time. Many of them don't.

That's wonderful your friend has worked very hard for her PhD & it's paid off, but many of us don't have to hold down 4 jobs - indeed, would not be ALLOWED to work like that outside of school - and are still working our asses off. .

For clarification, she was waiting tables and serving coffee on top of her teaching requirements. I am certain it was well within her grant requirements. But she couldn't live on her paultry grant so she did what she had too.

My point was everyone's view of working their butt is different. I look at her and see something I am not sure I would be capable of. Competing through college pales in comparison to me.

fooler

Aug. 13, 2008, 02:21 PM

In my letter to the safety committee I stated there is a problem with spotlighting riders, of all ages, who are 'riding' at the 3* & 4* levels after less than 4-5 years in Eventing. Many have minimal experience in other disciplines. This implies getting to the top of this sport is easy. Which is not true as BigRuss1966 stated so well.

Regarding Torrance - per articles I read about her way back when. . . She had a full time job & would trailer roughly 2 hours each night for lessons. Then trailer out on weekends for competitions. A schedule I would find most difficult to follow.

As far I know - Mr. Steinkraus rode as much as possible during the week, not just during competitions.

I did have a problem with the trainer, the parents and the rider agreeing to a system where the rider comes in only for the competitions - at least as this winter/spring. Kudos to her for handling this well and being, it appears, to be well grounded.

Now how many other youngsters, or others, are thinking if it worked for Cayla, why not for my kid or me? Cayla appears to be a special young lady with very supportive parents and one of the best trainers in the world. To be honest there are very few people who are in this situation.

deltawave

Aug. 13, 2008, 02:53 PM

The German gold medalist is a dentist and no doubt doesn't ride all day, every day.

I wonder if the difference is simply in age and maturity? No matter how brilliant, a 21 year old rider just doesn't have the mileage that someone twice his/her age is going to have.

I keep going back to the article in Eventing magazine maybe 6 months ago where a girl had won (IIRC) her first CCI** and made the comment that it had been the first time she'd gone XC in the rain. What is up with that??

I think the qualifying road for the big "starred" events is just going to have to get tougher and longer for inexperienced riders. If you're Phillip or Bruce or Karen, they can stay the same. But nobody's first three day should be Rolex, and nobody who's never done it before should get in with the minimum qualifiers.

Jealoushe

Aug. 13, 2008, 03:02 PM

Maybe the dentist only rides at night, but maybe he only has a couple of horses to ride. He surely had quite the bond with that horse.

I keep thinking about Mark Todds bio, and how he talks about what he went through just to get to Lexington...when he was young. I know its unfair to compare to the master...but he is someone to follow.

KMErickson

Aug. 13, 2008, 03:31 PM

I keep going back to the article in Eventing magazine maybe 6 months ago where a girl had won (IIRC) her first CCI** and made the comment that it had been the first time she'd gone XC in the rain. What is up with that??
.

I remember reading that too in the COTH... it was I think the girl's first intermediate win and she was from CA so (I guess, I wouldn't know) that that would explain the lack of rain. I remember thinking that, learning to ride in New England springs, that I probably have ridden more xc rounds in the rain than not and being a little jealous!!

baythoroughbred

Aug. 13, 2008, 03:41 PM

Here's the link to the whole clip

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?categoryId=3060647

piaffeprincess98

Aug. 13, 2008, 03:44 PM

Wow, I had only seen photos of the Laine fall, that was really horrific and disturbing. The landing is what really made me cringe. The Darren one still gives me chills too. At least they disclosed that Mrs. Erikson was sueing the USEA.

By the way, who is Rebecca Calder? Where is she from? They said she rode for the US, but I've never heard of her.

JER

Aug. 13, 2008, 03:58 PM

Good segment. I was very engaged watching it.

Well done, Denny and Bruce, for not avoiding the hard questions.

Rebecca Calder was spot-on about the safety summit.

And is it just me, or did ESPN choose footage of CMP that made him look like Upperclass Twit of the Year?

JenJ

Aug. 13, 2008, 04:00 PM

Personally I don't really feel rider deaths are the problem, it's the horse deaths. People will always be dying doing a sport of some kind or another, it's the horse with no choice.
If I was John Q. Public, that's what would upset me the most.

The rider deaths are a problem but our sport can survive rider fatalities. It is the horse fatalities that I believe have the potential to destroy eventing.

Tiki

Aug. 13, 2008, 04:02 PM

Adamsmom, First you said17 skiers died on the slopes in Colorado in less than 6 weeks this past winter.
In 2006, approximately 20 high school and college football players died, mostly from heat stroke. Implying that they were all playing football when they died.

Then you said There were a total of 20 deaths in 2006; two sandlot players, three in college, 13 middle and high schoolers. Only one death was directly related to the game; a 17-year-old high school player who received a spinal cord injury when tackled in a practice drill.
And I may be mistaken about the length of time involved in the skiing deaths in Colorado alone, but I do know it was more than 15 over a 2 year period. Your first quote is taking a little bit of license with the statistics to try to prove that playing football is at least as dangerous as eventing. I think not.

denny

Aug. 13, 2008, 04:31 PM

About mid June I got a call from a Mike Plante, a producer at ESPN, asking if I would be willing to talk with them about the safety issues in eventing. My obvious first reaction was that they wanted to do a sensationalist "get eventing" piece.

So I asked Mike what the "slant" was to be, and he was very candid. He said that it appeared, from a statistical vantage point, that this little known sport called eventing was fast becoming the most dangerous sport in the Olympics, for sure, if not in the world, and that it was the sort of thing that ESPN often examines.

He promised that he wasn`t out to "get" the sport, but wanted to be scrupulously fair and analytical in his attept to figure out just what was going wrong.

Anyway, he came up to Strafford with a big crew the same weekend that there was a Pony Club sponsored event at Tamarack, and that`s some of what you see, the little kids jumping ponies.

Mike told me that he was turned away by the various equestrian organizations at every turn, and that part of him resented what he felt to be some sort of coverup, but that he would not let personal feelings color his attempt to unravel what he agreed were multi-faceted reasons for the heightened dangers.

But he did tell me that he felt, from talking with dozens of people, in and around the sport, that there appeared to be two factors, sort of on a collision course, that may have set up our situation.

One was that just as the sport was reaching out for new converts, more tv, more publicity, at the same time, probably partly because of the shift to the short format, the skills needed to excel in eventing cross country needed to be very great, and that some of these newer riders hadn`t spent the time necessary to achieve those skills.

Hence, greater danger for them and their horses.

Different viewers will have different opinions as to whether the ESPN piece was fair, but my sense is that they tried to see several sides of the complicated issues.

annikak

Aug. 13, 2008, 05:54 PM

Good piece- but the one thing I wish they were able to address more was what Bruce started on- rider responsibility.

I understand where you are coming from, Denny, but it's the falls that hurt. People riding horses, or horses carrying riders, that are not up to the task is a pretty big issue. IMHO-

And, can you imagine what the cost of those bigger paper mache jumps would be? Already many whine (not me, btw) abt the costs of entries.

Yes, there is something to protecting the horses and riders that are not playing the game as well as they should. BUT--

They gotta learn the game. Is every death the past few years from rotational falls? Not all the horse deaths are, for sure.

I am beginning to really like the idea of a national data base, attached to everyones records. This would then say if someone was "approved" to go at such and such level as a horse/rider pair. Would keep track of DR and MR faults, so if someone was "flagged" it would show up on their entry.

The show sec (or event entries, since they seem to be on top of electronic entries idea) would make sure the rider/horse was qualified.

And, sad as I am to say that we need this, make stricter qualifications. I hate that, in all honesty- only because I think we can be better then that.

One way. Not the only way or thing to improve things, but a start.

Glimmerglass

Aug. 13, 2008, 06:12 PM

One statement in the piece that I have to question is that ESPN said organizers were 'looking to increase fan interest' and so intentionally made courses more complex and thrilling. Is that really the case?

I frankly cannot think of any venue has consciously attempted to make a course more devious, if you will, just in hopes to boost more people coming to watch it. The sport as a whole and individual venues are not driven by gate revenue or TV ratings or even by audience numbers.

If that had any validity then it would be a well cited aspect in a flood of suits against said organizers when injuries occur.

Rolex enjoys the cumulative 60k+ numbers it puts up year over year for the four days. However having been somewhat behinds the scenes I don't see where there is any type of planning like that. They've made jumps more sly on a superficial basis (such as the squirrels and their nuts beside a jump on XC) but I don't see where anyone is encouraging more 'spills and thrills' by design.

Eventfan4LIFE

Aug. 13, 2008, 06:17 PM

Cayla didn't necessarily "get around" Rolex - she was eliminated in show jumping when she went off course.
I saw her fall with her previous horse (Docksider?) at a show once and but for the grace of god was that not a Laine/Frodo outcome.
Ride only on weekends and compete on the present day four-star courses? No friggin' way.

AiryFairy

Aug. 13, 2008, 07:05 PM

I actually think that was quite a fairly presented piece. Not sure how I feel about papier mache jumps, (although if I hit one and didn't die I might like them just fine) but I'd like to give Bruce Davidson a big wet kiss for not mincing words - I think he nailed the problem. Having big bucks does not make you a competent rider, I don't care what you're on. About damn time for straight talk like that. One wonders if Bruce would have been allowed to say such a thing at the "safety summit"?

JER

Aug. 13, 2008, 07:25 PM

Not sure how I feel about papier mache jumps

Making one could be a fun group art project as long as someone remembered the beer.

pinkdiamondracing

Aug. 13, 2008, 08:02 PM

I don't know, I think that holding girls like Laine and Cayla as role models of young riders isn't realistic. Both of these girls come from money, and lots of it.
To me, someone who would be a better role model for Young Riders is someone like Sara Mittleider, who has worked her ever lovin' tail off for everything she has, teaching, riding, and even selling some of her promising prospects in order to finance her dream of competing at the Advanced Level.
Our parents are not rich, in fact it's just the opposite--we are and always have been hard working middle class people. When we were into racing, it was with mostly mediocre, slower homebreds. Now that my parents have been bitten by the eventing bug, it's mostly OTTBs that they get for next to nothing that make up the majority of their prospects. Not one high dollar horse in the bunch.
Sara has had to rely on the good fortune of having amazing talent, and the fact that she does what she does on a very limited budget is to be admired.
She has been to Rolex three times, each time improving her finishing place on the year before, and each year competing on the same horse, as she only has one Advanced horse.
Someday that will change, and she will have a string of them to ride, but you can be sure that their health and well being WILL come first, as that is the way it should be.
In case no one knows, she didn't get to run Rolex this year due to a very slight problem with her only advanced horse. Maybe she could have run him, but it wasn't worth his future to do so.

Her dedication and compassion for her horses is something to be admired, not her bank balance.

People need to stop idolizing these girls whose parents go out and BUY them greatness, and start idolizing the ones who MAKE THEIR OWN.

adamsmom

Aug. 13, 2008, 08:05 PM

Adamsmom, First you said Implying that they were all playing football when they died.

Then you said Your first quote is taking a little bit of license with the statistics to try to prove that playing football is at least as dangerous as eventing. I think not.

No, you misunderstand me. I said In 2006, approximately 20 high school and college football players died, mostly from heat stroke. That implies nothing. It states a fact, as I note that most of the deaths were from heat stroke. However, those kids did die while participating in the game of football, either in practice or in games.
I never said that football or anything else is as dangerous, more dangerous or less dangerous than eventing. Another poster commented that if any other sport had 15 people die over a 2 year period, they would shut down the sport. My quote merely shows that more than 15 people have died while participating in other sports and those sports have not been shut down. Whether those kids died from being tackled or from heat stroke or heart attacks, they died while participating in (playing or practicing) football.

flutie1

Aug. 13, 2008, 08:21 PM

Adamsmom - You have a PM.

pinkdiamondracing

Aug. 13, 2008, 08:28 PM

I had the unfortunate luck of watching the ESPN piece with my husband, who knows that I am wanting to get back into eventing-- (although I have NO desire to go above Training, I don't think) and he knows that Dad and Sara compete at the Advanced Level, and the only things he could say afterward were " You guys are crazy" and " And PETA is after horse racing" ( which is our occupation)

AUeventer

Aug. 13, 2008, 08:56 PM

I liked this piece MUCH better than the one aired on HBO a few weeks ago. I have believed from the beginning that a large part of the problem is, as Bruce pointed out, rich young riders getting mounted on advanced horses that "pack" them around. I'm sorry, cross country isn't a freaking hunter class and you can't go buy a made horse and get around safely every time. I could name you at least a dozen riders off the top of my head who fit the very-young-and-well-mounted group.

Also, I am extremely disappointed that they interviewed Mrs. Eriksson. Have they done no research? Are they unaware of the circumstances of her daughters fall?? Was she not in another accident a short time before her fatal fall? Was she not already ELIMINATED when she chose to keep going even though she was having a bad day? Did nobody point out that her horse was only SEVEN (IIRC) at the ** level??? Most professionals don't move horses up that quickly, much less a junior competitor. I am just completely appalled that they overlooked these facts that put a completely different slant on the story. Again, we revisit RIDER RESPONSIBILITY, or maybe parent, in this case (she had to sign, did she not?). If you have a bad go at Intermediate, why not drop down to prelim for an event or two to reassess you and your horse's skills and regain confidence for the two of you? What is WRONG with that???? No, none of that was reported so instead we have an image of a beautiful teenager whose life was tragically cut short by this evil sport. :no:

I'm not trying to place blame because of course hindsight is 20/20, but for the love of God, if the above is true, how on earth can you blame the USEA for what happened???? Am I in the twilight zone or something?????

LexInVA

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:00 PM

I'm just sad I didn't get to see it. I was out walking dogs at the time. Too bad it won't likely ever air again.

seeuatx

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:03 PM

Lex, BayTB posted the link for us (thank goodness since I don't get ESPN at all...not cable). Thank you BayTB.:D

Here's the link to the whole clip

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?categoryId=3060647

LexInVA

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:09 PM

Lex, BayTB posted the link for us (thank goodness since I don't get ESPN at all...not cable). Thank you BayTB.:D

That's what I get for being lazy. :lol: I'll watch it right now before I head out on my bike ride.

Snapdragon

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:10 PM

Lex, Post #68 in this thread has a link to it. I just watched it. Very sobering.

LexInVA

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:34 PM

I just finished it. Definitely better than the HBO piece which was more of a "F**k you!" to the sport. I would love to see a half-hour to hour long piece done on the current situation with more interviews. I liked what Denny had said about making the obstacles out of a more forgiving material that would essentially give way which is something I myself had researched back when all this started, specifically the use of styrofoam among other things. I found that it would be possible to make very realistic looking obstacles but the logistics are somewhat difficult to deal with because there is no production model in existence at this time. I even went to so far as to come up with a few ideas that might (theoretically) decrease the potential damage of a fall should there be something almost as bad as rotational at an obstacle but I never took any of it beyond theoretical postulation. I actually looked at toys of all things to get some inspiration. :)

DLee

Aug. 13, 2008, 09:35 PM

One wonders if Bruce would have been allowed to say such a thing at the "safety summit"?

I don't know why he wouldn't have been "allowed", the floor was open.

lyssap39

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:01 PM

I don't know why he wouldn't have been "allowed", the floor was open.

I believe that when they interviewed with Courtney King (at least I think that is who it was) she said that the publicists were cutting people off and were not really allowing a true open discussion and that a lot of people felt uncomfortable to speak. So maybe he couldn't say what he felt...who really knows.

AiryFairy

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:04 PM

I don't know why he wouldn't have been "allowed", the floor was open.

And yet if you listen to Rebecca Calder, she felt very unable to do anything but sit there with her mouth shut because there seemed to be no room for discussion, it was being run like a PR event and not a discussion forum. Regardless, I'm glad he said what he did. It brought to mind the 'rule' in Jimmy Wofford's article that said "don't even think about competing without competence". So if all these rich brats are buying their way to the top levels without the experience to be there, WHO is going to take the bull by the horns and tell them they're not competent? Is the event world becoming too politically correct for someone in authority to say "look, you don't belong here and you're dangerous, go home and practice for a couple of years".

Maybe that's a bit of a rhetorical question, because there used to be a whole lot more common sense out there on course.

Snapdragon

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:04 PM

I don't know why he wouldn't have been "allowed", the floor was open.

I wrote all this in my previous post but then deleted it. But, here goes again.

One thing that really bothered me about what was said in the ESPN piece was what Rebecca Calder had to say. She didn't feel comfortable bringing up certain, difficult, issues. And when others brought them up, the PR minions steered the discussion away from them. Now, if Bruce were there and had something to say, maybe he would have been "allowed" to speak his mind, I don't know.

It's very disappointing to hear that at the Big Safety Summit people were stymied. And, even though there are those who roll their eyes at times about what's written on this board, it at least gives people the opportunity to express their opinion and put ideas out there. Too bad the summit didn't do the same. It feels to me like we are almost back at square one.

DLee

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:09 PM

See, I don't agree. I am a virtual nobody, I was there and I spoke, a couple of times, about issues important to me.
Bruce did speak at one point. If one REALLY wanted to say something, you could say it.

Eventer724

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:10 PM

I also agree that the ESPN piece was much better than HBO...I do agree that Mia Ericsson's mother is the wrong person to interview given the slant of the piece...much more background information was needed, as that is how we are going to get to the root of the problem (which was the intent of the documentary...although I still don't think they got where they ultimately wanted to go)...I believe Mia had been eliminated and was being flagged down by officials to stop but did not respond..hence continuing on and having a rotational fall...my heart goes out to her parents and I cannot even imagine what they have been through...but in all honesty, they have not looked themselves in the mirror and answered the question that everyone wants the answer to: are people making the right choices, and if not, are they owning up to their mistakes? Also...since when has Darren mentioned that his horse "saw something in the distance" until now? There is a different excuse every time he does an interview!! Again, why is it so hard to see that he jumped on the second stride, was ahead of the horse and the horse chipped in...everyone sees that except him...I was floored when he made that comment...this is the ultimate problem with this sport...no one can be expected to make the right choice or own up to a mistake when the elite aren't setting the right example. As Bruce said" even if you have an excuse...shut up"...amen Bruce...much more needs to be done but ESPN is on the right track...the problem is that those who are unfamiliar with the sport are getting one message: eventing kills. This is not the message that should be spreading...rather, we need to take a good look at each situation and find common denominators, address them, and make that information available to the public. It is not fair to the sport to interview people whose situations have not been looked at from all angles. It is not going to help us in the long run...it is only going to dig the hole deeper. There is a fine line between pointing fingers and laying out the facts that need to be made known about people's choices and the consequences that resulted.

Snapdragon

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:12 PM

Anne FS

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:17 PM

Now would be a good time to post a comment about the piece thanking ESPN for covering it. There's only one comment posted and it's exactly the stereotype: don't care if riders kill themselves but the poor, beautiful horses.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3533416&n8pe6c=2&categoryId=3060647

Eventer724

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:23 PM

It was a very uncomfortable environment at the summit, which was unfortunate because a lot could have been discussed and people were shut down if things were looking as if they were going to get heated. Bruce was there and he had some very good things to say...but it was kind of brushed over because for one thing, the moderators referred to him as "the guy in the pink shirt in the back"...which goes to show you that they had no idea who they had just called on...and the other was that he should have had more influence, but because the moderators were not eventers, his comments were dumbed down and became rather insignificant. It was clear that there was a specific agenda that was set and it was run like an executive meeting, rather than a meeting of the minds from people in all areas of the sport. There was too much feeling of "us vs. them"...in other words...the powers that be vs. everyone else. To solve this problem, everyone needs to feel comfortable voicing their opinions, mistakes need to be pointed out, dealt with, and learned from, and everyone needs to be in it together. Unfortunately, the summit did not accomplish this important goal.

LLDM

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:27 PM

I believe that when they interviewed with Courtney King (at least I think that is who it was) she said that the publicists were cutting people off and were not really allowing a true open discussion and that a lot of people felt uncomfortable to speak. So maybe he couldn't say what he felt...who really knows.

I was there, and spoke up quite a bit. But then again, I am a nobody - and so had nothing to lose. Blissfully ignorant and all! But honestly, I can't give a whole lot of credence to someone who was so intimidated that they went all that way to say nothing.

I wrote all this in my previous post but then deleted it. But, here goes again.

One thing that really bothered me about what was said in the ESPN piece was what Rebecca Calder had to say. She didn't feel comfortable bringing up certain, difficult, issues. And when others brought them up, the PR minions steered the discussion away from them. Now, if Bruce were there and had something to say, maybe he would have been "allowed" to speak his mind, I don't know.

It's very disappointing to hear that at the Big Safety Summit people were stymied. And, even though there are those who roll their eyes at times about what's written on this board, it at least gives people the opportunity to express their opinion and put ideas out there. Too bad the summit didn't do the same. It feels to me like we are almost back at square one.

There were subjects that were deftly avoided. But not by the PR guys. Honestly, the PR guys did a pretty good job under the circumstances. They are not responsible for our leaders' selective hearing. Seriously.

See, I don't agree. I am a virtual nobody, I was there and I spoke, a couple of times, about issues important to me.
Bruce did speak at one point. If one REALLY wanted to say something, you could say it.

Agreed! But I was amazed at just how much of the discussion never made it to the "synopsis". There were plenty of elephants in the room.

SCFarm

DLee

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:28 PM

That's interesting DLee. Makes me wonder why some people were reluctant to speak up or address some of the difficult issues.

Did you come away from it feeling like something had been accomplished? Good to have another perspective.

Personally? Yes.

I feel like most of the things accomplished were long term goals, as they probably had to be, involving research, development etc. of fences, pins, speeds, all of that. Maybe that is why people feel 'nothing' was accomplished, because those things will take time.

But also, the Watch List (I understood, anyway) was going to take affect very quickly, as well as flagging dangerous riding etc. That's probably old news, I know.

Maybe because I have no history with these types of meetings, I had no background on 'bad feelings' or anything, I thought it was well run and supremely interesting. I thought the mediators were a neccesity in the beginning and did a good job, but was also glad to see David take over on Sunday.

I've read a lot here about the Summit, and how it accomplished nothing, and was even laughable maybe, and I just can't agree. Nothing this complex can be solved in two days, and a lot of it is going to take some time. I mean, look at the 'one fall and out' rule, which got implemented immediately. That ticked people off because it was a 'knee jerk' reaction, and yet when there are other rules, studies, etc. being done, nobody is 'doing things fast enough.'
Can't win.

So those are my basic thoughts on the matter.

Angela Freda

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:28 PM

I
Eventing has a number of successful competitors who work real-world jobs and can't ride every day. (I believe Kevin Baumgartner is one of them.) Even Reiner Klimke had lots of business commitments that took him away from riding.

I think it's possible to be a successful weekend rider if the rider has a solid foundation and good horsemanship skills. I don't know if a YR can get those skills riding/showing on weekends -- I think the skills you'd develop would be about showing rather than riding.
Can I interject (not an eventer)? that what I see as the difference is that perhaps those examples you are offering (Klimke, Watkins, etc) had an extensive previous (to their adult years) riding background to pull from, whereas this 21 year old who only rides a couple of days a week does not have that same depth of personal knowledge/experience.

poopoo

Aug. 13, 2008, 10:55 PM

Loved the interview with Bruce. Does anyone feel like they're back in a lesson when he gets to the "shut up" part? Deja vu.

ezmissg

Aug. 14, 2008, 12:39 AM

That's interesting DLee. Makes me wonder why some people were reluctant to speak up or address some of the difficult issues.

Did you come away from it feeling like something had been accomplished? Good to have another perspective.

Here I go, not being able to hold my tongue again! I went to the Summit -- I even wrote a couple of recaps on the thread about it here. I just did not see the crappy things that are now being said about it. Nor did I hear those comments at the time -- I generally heard people saying they thought that a lot of good thoughts were coming out.

No one could be a bigger nobody than me, and I spoke up more than once. But beyond that, Gina Miles spoke up frequently; Dorothy Crowell spoke up more than that...as did Janie Atkinson, Shelley Lambert and other organizers...Malcolm, CMP, Sally O'Connor, Kim Seversen, Laura Duhamel, Tuppysmom, a volunteer coordinator, a lower level trainer...I can't begin to remember everyone who spoke, much less their names. I think ANY and EVERY PERSON had the chance to speak up. The facilitators were primarily there to keep the topics moving so that A LOT of subjects could be covered; but they were pacing, not censoring.

I was there, and spoke up quite a bit. But then again, I am a nobody - and so had nothing to lose. Blissfully ignorant and all! But honestly, I can't give a whole lot of credence to someone who was so intimidated that they went all that way to say nothing.

There were subjects that were deftly avoided. But not by the PR guys. Honestly, the PR guys did a pretty good job under the circumstances. They are not responsible for our leaders' selective hearing. Seriously.

But I was amazed at just how much of the discussion never made it to the "synopsis". There were plenty of elephants in the room.

SCFarm

LLDM, I agree.

Personally? Yes.

I feel like most of the things accomplished were long term goals, as they probably had to be, involving research, development etc. of fences, pins, speeds, all of that. Maybe that is why people feel 'nothing' was accomplished, because those things will take time.

But also, the Watch List (I understood, anyway) was going to take affect very quickly, as well as flagging dangerous riding etc. That's probably old news, I know.

Maybe because I have no history with these types of meetings, I had no background on 'bad feelings' or anything, I thought it was well run and supremely interesting. I thought the mediators were a neccesity in the beginning and did a good job, but was also glad to see David take over on Sunday.

I've read a lot here about the Summit, and how it accomplished nothing, and was even laughable maybe, and I just can't agree. Nothing this complex can be solved in two days, and a lot of it is going to take some time. I mean, look at the 'one fall and out' rule, which got implemented immediately. That ticked people off because it was a 'knee jerk' reaction, and yet when there are other rules, studies, etc. being done, nobody is 'doing things fast enough.'
Can't win.

So those are my basic thoughts on the matter.

DLee, I completely agree!

So, on the whole, I think a lot of communicating and sharing was done. If you WERE THERE and you don't agree, could you please cite some specifics?

Thames Pirate

Aug. 14, 2008, 07:43 PM

I wasn't at the summit, so I won't comment on it per se, but I will say this: I am a teacher and on committees. I HATE sitting through committee meetings at which much is discussed and people feel it was productive, yet when you bottom line it, not much was done. I don't think that is the case here, but I can understand the perspective. I do think there was a lot discussed, including pros and cons I had not even begun to consider on various topics. That part is important, and often the first meeting has to be just that--a discussion. If nothing comes out of SUBSEQUENT meetings, I'd be worried. It sounds like the issues are so big and so numerous that some elephants HAVE to be in the room, and some things CAN'T be solved--how do we solve someone like Mia making such poor choices? The failsafes meant to protect her (elimination) were not enough because she made the poor decision to ignore them. We can't protect people from stupidity (and I'm not calling Mia stupid--I didn't know her); however, I agree with Denny that we have to figure out ways to protect people from mistakes or ignorance.

I think the long-term goals (most of which involve research, data collection, etc) are great, and it's good that the ball is rolling on those. Are there going to be studies? Who will be doing them and how will they be funded (and is there a conflict of interest)? What exactly do we want to study? Those decisions, if not yet made, are the next steps. I also think there are some good decisions being made for relatively immediate fixes. The watch list, potentially raising qualifications (and rules regarding loss of qualification), and the one-fall rule fall into this category.

There are so many things to consider that we can't fix them all at once, and it's foolish to think we can address everything adequately in a single summit. We will be discussing course design/technicality, speeds, qualifications, and the goals of each level (and possibly comparing the LF to SF, but I doubt it) at summits for months and maybe years to come. In the meantime, we should all continue to stay vocal and continue discussing these issues. I know some people are tired of "safety, safety, safety," I think these threads serve a great purpose. Not all of us can attend these summits or the annual meeting (I wish!), but we might have thought of things nobody has considered or that have not been discussed. Sharing them here allows those members going to the meetings to share a more fleshed out viewpoint and discuss more ideas.

As to the ESPN piece, I thought it was excellent. It was not sensationalist or biased. While they could have gone more into Mia and I don't think Ms. Eriksson was the best choice for interviewees (what about Eleanor Brennan's family/Danny Warrington/any of the many people who have lost loved ones but DON'T have pending lawsuits), I think they were trying not to smear Mia. They did mention the lawsuit, and while they mentioned the claim that the sport was being made more difficult for spectator appeal, they mentioned it as quoted in the lawsuit (or the lawsuit graphic) and didn't necessarily validate the claim.

I did think it was interesting that Eriksson in this clip didn't say "don't do the upper levels" as much as she said "don't buy your kid a horse to take them to the upper levels." Bruce said pretty much the same thing. I agree that it's interesting that this comes out in conjunction with the Cayla Kitayama article, which annoyed me to no end. Yet another "Cinderella" story that really isn't . . . . The title caught my eye, and my first thought was "I wonder if her road has been as hard as my sister's." It hasn't even been close, but my sister is still gunning for her first Training and so doesn't make for as much of an "happy end" read (although she inspires me every day). When I read about my sister (or someone like her), I will sit up and take notice. My sister would also fit in nicely with the safety articles, as she has taken the high road for the sake of her horse so many times and is the epitome of rider responsibility. She is the type of person the USEA should be holding up as an example and even funding. THAT is the way the culture of the sport will shift.

redlight

Aug. 14, 2008, 09:03 PM

Tough piece to watch but I loved hearing Bruce and Denny. I have to ask myself though, if the mother's in the piece including Ms. Erickson were so nervous about their children riding cross country then why did they allow their children to do it? Please don't tell me it's because Muffy just loves eventing and it's all she dreams about. Give me a break.

I too have real issues with the money that influences the sport so much these days. First it was getting sponsors for the major events, then luring TV, now it's about buying advanced level packers so you don't have to learn from bottom up. As long as the BNT's are being paid by their wealthy customers to buy made horses and keep them in full training ala the hunter/jumper world, do you think anything is going to change? It's become too much about competing and not enough about training. It's the same problem people complain about with the hunter/jumper people. It's our obsession with instant gratification. Sorry but a twenty one year old does not have the judgement or experience that someone with twice the age/experience has no matter how much money they (or really their parents) have. Then when something goes wrong find someone quick to blame it on; horse, course designer, not being told latest rule changes (see Philip Dutton incident) etc. I loved it when Bruce said "shut up".

I think the USEF/USEA should triple the requirements to move up each level starting with training level as well as have age restrictions for both horse and rider that are more stringent than they are now.

While we're at it how about Denny, Bruce and Jimmy take over and we get rid of Mark Phillips and Jim Wolf?

Lori T

Aug. 14, 2008, 10:33 PM

Just watched it (the link is here on another post). First, my hat is off to you, Denny..thank you for having the balls to stand up and say what you did.
I just wish that when Mia's mother is being interviewed, that they would tell the WHOLE story and not just her version.
I hope things get fixed soon. I am in some ways relieved that Jen's mare was retired this winter before she went prelim...even though Imp was an experienced eventer. Glad that Jen is starting over with a new horse at novice!

PhoenixFarm

Aug. 15, 2008, 12:13 PM

I was at the Summit and spoke up frequently, as i am a notorious loudmouth. :winkgrin:

I certainly felt I had the OPPORTUNITY to speak (no denial of that).

However, I didn't feel like anything I said was considered, heard, or made available for discussion. Oh, and about 50% of the time I said something, the moron "facillitator" would attempt to restate what I had said and would completely screw it up and say something that wasn't at all what I said.

My agenda wasn't their agenda, my issues weren't their issues, so while I certainly was allowed to hold the microphone, it may as well have been a magic talking stick.

denny

Aug. 15, 2008, 12:25 PM

Off topic, BUT----Phoenix Farm, your sister in law was here yesterday, and they have a new batch of baby kittens!

Tempted?

PhoenixFarm

Aug. 15, 2008, 01:23 PM

Uh, considering the last Authentic Native Vermont Kitten I acquired from my sis-in-law the cat breeder has suddenly decided that I should place his litter box directly beneath my office chair (or pay the aromatic consequences), I'm going to go with no, not tempted. Do you know how hard it is to do billing when your eyes are watering?

If he doesn't start playing his cards right, the little bugger is going to be a barn cat again, rather than a house cat. (although John, Mr. neat freak, is currently campaigning for his next job to be "stuffed pillow").

I managed to teach him to stop the catch and release bird hunting in my house, so I'm hopeful we can put the kitty toilet back in it's proper place soon.

Why, are Fang and Tang about to get a new sibling? They're bloody cute, those wee ones. That's how they get you . . . :winkgrin::cool::lol:

Maria B.

Aug. 16, 2008, 03:39 PM

I too missed this one and would like to see it. Can anyone give me a link? I have not been able to find it searching the net.

cevent

Aug. 16, 2008, 03:45 PM

I haven't gone through all the above posts, so sorry if someone else posted this. The area 1 website has a link on the homepage to the ESPN segment.
http://www.area1usea.org/ -- ESPN E60 "After the Fall" video

Jenne

Aug. 16, 2008, 04:18 PM

15 NASCAR drivers, 15 football players, 15 hockey players, or 15 high-school sports players, 15 anything, DIED in the past 2 years those sports would be shut down. ONE NFL player died of heatstroke a couple of years ago and the entire protocol for practices changed. ONE.

How many people die in riding accidents per year??? For that matter car accidents?? I agree that things need to change but to some extent there is the fact that we all know of the possibility that we may do a rotational. No different then getting in your car knowing that some idiot could hit you. So we need to regulate the levels which they did. Collapsable fences seem a little extreme, how are they judged??? If you knock one down how many faults?? a whole other can of worms there. It is just to bad that it has come to this.

Ajierene

Aug. 16, 2008, 04:27 PM

Just got a chance to watch it.

"You can't always say 'what happened isn't my fault'......You know what, even if you have an excuse, shut up"
Bruce Davidson on the ESPN segment.

Very good points. He makes some great points about some eventers wanting to blame everything except themselves and their own skills.

Darren Chiaccha said his horse got distracted for a half second?!?

Overall, I liked the segment - they stated that eventing has gotten dangerous recently, quoted the changes to the sport and how that could have effected the competitors.

Jenne has some great points about 15 riders and no changes in the sport. I think it ties in with what Bruce has been saying about blaming others.

lucretia

Aug. 16, 2008, 05:41 PM

i just watched the clip, thanks bayTB. i think the problem is the technical complexity of the courses now allied with the fact that so few horses and riders hunt these days as they used to in preparation which i do believe helps develop that 5th leg.
on another thread somebody posted a clip of Badminton 1982, barely a skinny or narrow to be seen but the horses were travelling faster because i think then that the speed was only slightly less than the chase phase so its not all about speed as some might suggest. Jim Wofford wrote an excellent article on the subject recently i will look for the link if one of you doesnt beat me to it. i think nearly all his points are valid.
as for the young rider thing, well a very experienced international rider (top ten last week) told me that 'there are no short cuts in eventing' because even if you are lucky enough to have a horse bought for you you still have to ride it in three phases. Now while i think this is true to a certain extent, i think that the wat the sport encourages the U21's to rush through qualifications and get to four stars needs to be examined perhaps they need to be asked to do extra qulaifying runs or perhaps fours star and championships should be limited to the over 25's to MAKE people get the relevant experience. younger riders may say this isnt fair but life isnt fair either.
as for rotational falls well it seems to me there are more because the horses and riders are not encouraged tothink for themselves. in the name of safety we gave them good ground lines, we made the fences extra solid, we reduced the speed and everything is so sanitised i beieve many of the younger riders (and most of the horses) just dont learn to use their brains. Which brings me back to the reduction in the use of hunting as an education.
I dont know about papier mache fences, i think in the end in will encourage reckless and gung ho riding, which may not result in fatalitiies in rotational falls but will have an impact on horse welfare because they will be galloped into the ground to get the time as 'it wont matter' if you hit one.
it is a very hard thing to do sorting out the current state of the sport but we need to or it will die. if eventing is not seen on the worlds stage i.e. the olympics, there will be less and less investment by outside sponsors who will see no return just an association with a sport soonn likely to be labelled the most deadly in the world.

lucretia

Aug. 16, 2008, 05:42 PM

jim wofford article here http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/eventing/wofford_eventing_lives_051408/

Bats79

Aug. 16, 2008, 09:27 PM

So what about the option of putting more of it back on the rider such as a licensing system based on an apprenticeship or at least "time in the saddle under direction".

If an amateur want to fly an aeroplane they have to spend x amount of time flying. Then before they can fly a different type of plane they have to put in the hours under instruction etc.

Surely if someone thinks they are good enough to compete 4* then they should find the time to learn the ropes. Recognising that it's no longer a sport that can be practised easily on a minimal budget but why the heck should someone expect to be full time at college and take the weekends to go eventing. Take the weekends to go hunting and then when you have 2,000 hours in the saddle, go eventing.

Crazyabouteventing

Aug. 17, 2008, 01:21 AM

Having just seen the ESPN clip for the first time and also not long finished watching the Olympians strut their stuff.

The thing that has been brought up countless times rang truer than anything else for me.

Whats the rush??

As can be even seen at the Olympics and countless other competitions both here and around the world you can compete in this sport till your nearly ready for the retirement village. (Some will argue they feel like they should be there already.)

Slow down and smell the roses they are all worth it.! ,(feel free to quote me) ;)

Cheers

colliemom

Aug. 17, 2008, 10:46 AM

I read that article this morning while I was at the gym and was thinking about Bruce's comments as well. I have little doubt she is a good rider, but still she notes that she worked hard in college monday-thursday and then took off for Aiken to lesson on friday and compete on the weekend. We literally have taken a page out of the H/J playbook, get to a certain level of competency, stick the horse in training and ride and show on the weekends. Only we are talking about eventing and if you miss those jumps don't fall down.

I don't know her and I am not picking on her ability to ride, just noting the new trend in bringing up our Y/Rs.

It's not just Young Riders, it's happening with Adult Ammies as well. I personally know someone who is doing this. On previous horse, did 4 Novices (1 E, 1 R, 2 with XC penalties). Bought a 'been there done that' horse, came out at Training, did 2 trainings and moved up to prelim. Did 7 prelims over the course of 3 years (1 E, 1 TE), and was encourage by trainer to move up to Intermediate, where they incurred 2 stops on XC. Horse spends winters in Florida with trainer, rider flies down occassionally on weekends to compete.

Where is the partnership? Horsemanship? Hard work? FITNESS LEVEL??? This IMO is a big part of what is wrong with the sport right now, and I don't think there is much we can do about it, unfortunately.

Little Valkyrie

Aug. 17, 2008, 01:10 PM

It's not just Young Riders, it's happening with Adult Ammies as well. I personally know someone who is doing this. On previous horse, did 4 Novices (1 E, 1 R, 2 with XC penalties). Bought a 'been there done that' horse, came out at Training, did 2 trainings and moved up to prelim. Did 7 prelims over the course of 3 years (1 E, 1 TE), and was encourage by trainer to move up to Intermediate, where they incurred 2 stops on XC. Horse spends winters in Florida with trainer, rider flies down occassionally on weekends to compete.

Where is the partnership? Horsemanship? Hard work? FITNESS LEVEL??? This IMO is a big part of what is wrong with the sport right now, and I don't think there is much we can do about it, unfortunately.

There is no partnership, horsemanship, or hard work. It is beyond me how anyone can do this, or how any trainer in their right mind could condone this. To event, especially at that level, you should know the ins and outs of your horse like the back of your hand. To have a dull-eyed, schooled to death, personality-less horse will do you no good when a mistake is made XC and a split-second decision has to be made to rectify it. But, no matter how wrong or backwards this method appears to be, we all know one or more people who's horses are schooled by BNT's 4 times a week and in the winter will fly down south to ride their horses a few weekends. No freezing in an indoor perfecting dressage and learning exactly how to ride their horse to prepare for the next years events for them. It is quite possibly not the courses that is ruining this sport, it is the mindless schooling of the horses and the severe lack of horsemanship that we see all to often in today's riders.

colliemom

Aug. 17, 2008, 01:33 PM

No freezing in an indoor perfecting dressage and learning exactly how to ride their horse to prepare for the next years events for them. It is quite possibly not the courses that is ruining this sport, it is the mindless schooling of the horses and the severe lack of horsemanship that we see all to often in today's riders.

Not to mention, these horses never get a break anymore. No winter "let-down" to rest, relax, get shaggy, and be a horse. :(

Kaytaz86

Aug. 17, 2008, 02:25 PM

Tough piece to watch but I loved hearing Bruce and Denny. I have to ask myself though, if the mother's in the piece including Ms. Erickson were so nervous about their children riding cross country then why did they allow their children to do it? Please don't tell me it's because Muffy just loves eventing and it's all she dreams about. Give me a break.

THANK-YOU! I thought the same thing. As a relatively "young" rider (I'm 22), I couldn't agree with you more. I have been involved with Pony Club since I was 8, and saw a lot of examples of parents buying big-dollar horses, for kids that were not ready for a given level. The unfortunate part, is that these kids are the ones who ended up hurt, scared, or just left the sport. The kids who had free/cheap ponies actually stuck around, and have become darn good riders! In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with buying a "been there, done that" horse, if you have the money. BUT-it is no excuse to short cut the process, you still need to spend a gazillion hours without stirrups, whether you are riding a packer or a green bean. People often comment on my seat, and the fact that I rarely come un-glued. Why? Because I rode bareback until I was 9. And after that, I was often bareback, or without my stirrups. Even though I had a very safe, very experienced pony to do my first events on, my "basics" were there, should anything go wrong. With that start, I was comfortable and safe on my "naughty" TB prospect. Don't get me wrong, we had more that a few moments that had my mom/friends/instructor gasping for breath. My saving grace was that I was riding horses that were very athletic and that I knew like the back of my hand. I pulled my mare out of more than one event when things "weren't quite right". I'm so grateful that I had parents that were safety concious, trainers who would 'tell me off' when I needed it, and horses that, while not being well schooled, were very special in their own quirky ways.

Equibrit

Aug. 17, 2008, 02:55 PM

The USEA has to come up with a MAJOR educational effort. In other countries (Germany, GB, France Spain etc etc) it is in place for beginner riders all the way through to International competitors.
There are also well established training programmes in place for teachers. They are recognized for their efforts with qualifications, without which they are NOT allowed to teach.
Whatever exists in the USA is - well - a clusterf--k!

Thames Pirate

Aug. 17, 2008, 07:16 PM

That's fine, but how do we make that work with our geographical challenges (which European nations don't have)?

KSevnter

Aug. 17, 2008, 07:49 PM

Where is the partnership? Horsemanship? Hard work? FITNESS LEVEL??? This IMO is a big part of what is wrong with the sport right now, and I don't think there is much we can do about it, unfortunately.

Exactly. It is the countless gallops and trot sets and dressage schools that create the partnership and the horseman. There really is no replacement for the time in the saddle and in the barn for non-professionals. It is how we learn that our horse has pulled a suspensory before he ever takes a lame step or is colicking without showing any outward signs the morning of dressage. It is how a young rider or ammy becomes a professional horseman, or at least it used to be.

As I have said on other threads it is a cultural shift, one I don't think we can come back from.

Equibrit

Aug. 17, 2008, 09:05 PM

That's fine, but how do we make that work with our geographical challenges (which European nations don't have)?

Excuses, excuses!
You MAKE it work.

DLee

Aug. 17, 2008, 09:15 PM

I think the education is already out there, if the rider wants it.

CarrieK

Aug. 17, 2008, 09:34 PM

Excuses, excuses!
You MAKE it work.
Not speaking for Thames Pirate, but having red enough of his/her posts I don't think s/he was making excuses but looking for suggestions.

Ajierene

Aug. 17, 2008, 09:51 PM

Excuses, excuses!
You MAKE it work.

This is where people need to be educated on the differences between the US and European countries.

Take Germany, which many have said has a great program. 400 miles by 500 miles, roughly. Create a central program where parents can bring their students. If you place this program at the most northeastern corner of germany, you are looking at roughly a 640 mile trip, or a 10 hour trip going 60 miles an hour. A bit much to send your kids for weekly lessons, but also a worst case scenario. Same goes with trainers that would go out and do clinics.

The USA - The West Coast is about 1400 miles from the northernmost tip to the southernmost (Victoria, Washington to San Diego, California. The center of the US is longer.

From the West Coast (Carson City, California) to the East Coast (New York, NY) is roughly 3000 miles.

If you create a central location to be a headquarters of training, you are looking at 700 miles north to south and 1500 miles from each coast. This does not include the fact that Maine would be a longer trip.

How do you afford to bring kids to this central location? How do you afford trainers to train here? The central location you would be looking at is Cheyenne Wyoming. Not very Eventing friendly from what I gather.

OK, so you have trainers on the East Coast to handle the East Coast and trainers on the West Coast to handle the West Coast. Who is going to take care of the middle states? Also, there are four large cities within a four hour drive. What does a city matter? Larger population density. What does a larger population density mean? More students in a shorter car trip.

The West coast - California has four major cities, San Fransisco and Los Angelos are an 8 hour car trip apart. If you base a trainer in one city, you lose the students in the other city. If you base the trainer halfway between the two you lose students in both cities that cannot or do not want to make a 4 hour trip on a regular basis.

All this is still better than the central states where you have one major city, on average, in each state.

So, yes, there are geographical issues that the USA needs to work through that Germany does not have.

Tell the child in California that they 'have to make it work' when the best trainers in the US (Phillip Dutton, Bruce Davidson, Karen and Davin O'Connor, etc) all reside on the East Coast. Hmm..3000 miles, 50 hour drive. Parents have to work - there is no guarantee that they will get a job on the East Coast if they move and if the job and everything else about the life is great on the West Coast, why would they move just because their child happens to 'fancy' horses. As my dad used to say 'it is a phase, you will grow out of it'.

These are not things that we can just brush under the table - the US is not Europe. One of the topics that need to be addressed when talking about training systems is the geography of the United States.

denny

Aug. 18, 2008, 06:50 AM

We have a youth frenzy here in the US, a sort of idea that if you aren`t there by 20, you`ve missed the boat.
I didn`t even see my first event until about a month before my 20th birthday, had never jumped a fence.

Riding experience, tons. Years of showing western, gymkhanas, Morgans, 5 GMHA 100 mile trail rides over 5 years, owned a stallion ($50.00 live foal), broke babies, but no eventing.

I think there were something like 3 events in Area One in 1962, my first season eventing.

My 1st Intermediate event was in 1965, but by then I`d also done lots of hunting with Essex, where I was teaching school, had ridden in the Essex Foxhounds point to point, had shown hunters at Ox Ridge (all on lighting Magic, my first tb), so mileage wise, I was ready.

Then I bought Cat for $800.00, a former barrel racer from Ok, and I showed him jumpers (jumped 6 feet), and evented him.

In 1971, when I would turn 30 in August, I rode in the Dunham, Que advanced 3-day, my first advanced.

Three years later, age 33, I was at the Burghley `74 World Championships.

This weekend, age 67, I`m riding 3 at Huntington.

My point----Take the time to learn and get mileage, because in riding sports, you HAVE TIME. It isn`t like all those Olympic sports where you`re over the crest at 25 or 30, or even younger.

Slow down also, crazed parents, you`re a big part of your kid`s problem!!! If your need is too great, you can push them into harm`s way.

Ajierene

Aug. 18, 2008, 09:01 AM

We have a youth frenzy here in the US, a sort of idea that if you aren`t there by 20, you`ve missed the boat.
I didn`t even see my first event until about a month before my 20th birthday, had never jumped a fence.

Why doesn't the USEA do an article on the oldest person at Rolex, then, instead of Cayla - while she is a great rider, the article may prompt more kids to want to get to Rolex by 21. Even a piece high lighting both Cayla and an older rider would be better.

Also Denny - can you elaborate, you said you didn't jump before your first event but you were ready for intermediate three years later partially because of Fox hunting. You joined a hunt after your first event? Three years of fox hunting and showing hunters is enough to prepare someone completely new to the sport to do the intermediate level? Are there differences between then and now or do you still think three years between Training and intermediate are enough?

Thames Pirate

Aug. 18, 2008, 11:49 AM

Thanks, CarrieK and Ajierene. I wasn't trying to make an excuse (and for the record, I'm a female). I was pointing out that we cannot simply say "this is how they do it in Germany" and copy it. It doesn't work that way. I am a dual citizen (US/Germany), and I see many things each country could learn from the other, but simply transferring systems NEVER works. There are geographical differences, cultural differences, etc. that aren't fully understood until you take the time to consider WHY things work there.

I was asking for suggestions, and I think Ajierene summed up my point quite well. For me, the closest ICP instructors are several hours away. I can haul my horse around from time to time, but it's expensive and time intensive. I'm happy to do it when I can, but I can't just take lessons from the best (assuming I could afford them). I take lessons from the local dressage instructor (who has experience coaching eventers) and from the local h/j instructor (who also coaches numerous eventers). I save the longer drives for clinics or XC schooling (we have one course 1 hour away, most others are 4 or more).

Denny, I'm glad I am not the only one who gets frustrated with the youth craze. While I did take lessons and do some shows when I was younger, my parents knew nothing about horses and deferred to our instructor, who, while competent, didn't take my riding seriously. I tried taking some initiative for my riding and did a working student stint. It was a disaster (not all the instructor's fault). I FINALLY broke out of Novice after 10 years last fall, and I am hoping to move up to Prelim next year, though I'm not sure we'll be ready. I'm not yet 30, but people laugh when I say I have upper level ambitions. Well, I do, but I have quit talking about it with all but a select few. Is there any reason I can't go Advanced some day? I realize I may never make a team, but that won't stop me from gunning for the top (and for the team, for that matter). You have given me great encouragement!

denny

Aug. 18, 2008, 11:53 AM

I`d been riding my ass off since I was 10. Plus I was an arrogant male. Plus I didn`t know what I didn`t know, or maybe that`s just another way of being an arrogant male.

So by the time I rode for the USET I`d been riding intensively, compulsively, for 23 years.

Equibrit

Aug. 18, 2008, 02:27 PM

It is quite apparent that what is in place (as far as education is concerned) is NOT WORKING. Nobody is suggesting that one has to copy anybody else's National system. It would be helpful if a parent could recognize a good teacher by their qualification, rather than the fact that they had "done Rolex". One does not signify the other. By having a "system" you KNOW that by the time a rider has reached a certain level, they have covered what was required to get to that level. It does however require some policing, and of course WORK.

purplnurpl

Aug. 18, 2008, 03:27 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3533305&n8pe6c=1&categoryId=3060647

If the OP could come on and put in the title caption that the link is on post #133 that would be cool. Otherwise most people won't know...

AiryFairy

Aug. 18, 2008, 10:13 PM

This weekend, age 67, I`m riding 3 at Huntington.

*bows in Denny's direction* I soooo need to stop whining about my middle-aged aches and pains.....thank you for the inspiration.

denny

Aug. 19, 2008, 07:09 AM

Remember, Airy Fairy, I spent the last 20 years or so on a farm with Walt Gervais, who is 20 years older than I am, who started RIDING in his late 50s, won his first novice at age 69, moved up to training at age 70, moved up to PRELIMINARY at age 72, and rode in his first prelim 3-day at Bromont at age 75.

So he`s a tough, maybe impossible act to follow, and watching his career changes ones perceptions of possibilities.

To be bluntly honest, though, when I would tell someone about Walt, and that person would so often say ,"Well then, there`s hope for me yet!", I would quietly think---

"Only if you have Walt`s enormous drive to be physically fit---"

Well into his 80s, before heart blockage problems finally slowed him down, Walt`s daily schedule made the kids on the farm seem like couch potatos, by comparison. He was an example of lifetime commitment to hard, strenuous physical exertion, his brand of the fountain of youth.

LisaB

Aug. 19, 2008, 07:59 AM

Denny, you rock, did you know that?
I really really really don't think we should follow exactly what the Germans do. I think we need to follow the Australian model.
And so, then, we get folks complaining that there's not enough land, I can't get out and run around.
Well, then follow the German model.
But for those of you who are in a remote location, print out Denny's posts, laminate them, put them on a wall and live by them. Get out! Go galavanting!
I loved trying the cutting on my saddlebred eventer. She was great at it and it taught me to sit back and let her think. I loved doing the gymkhana's. I loved going out for hours with my butt sore afterwards.
I am lucky enough now to have bought a farm surrounded by nothing. I have no barn, no arena. I was little out of sorts about it because it was so unknown and I didn't know how it would translate to the next event I was going to. And you know what? We were finally forward! And it was so darn easy, I had a couple of absolute brain farts. I came out of it thinking I need to do another training like a hole in the head. snooze city. And I don't have the facilities, I don't have even ground.
In my last lesson, my instructor said to warm up as I normally do at home and she'll watch. I told her my warm up is avoiding a few rocks and an uncontrolled hubby and his Belgian causing earthquakes.
So, don't get caught up in the warm and fuzzies of an arena or a facility. Do dressage on the side of a hill. Jump with jumps placed at random. Just get out!

Equibrit

Aug. 19, 2008, 09:50 AM

Go HUNTING!

LisaB

Aug. 19, 2008, 10:19 AM

Glimmerglass

Aug. 19, 2008, 10:47 AM

This weekend, age 67, I`m riding 3 at Huntington.

My point----Take the time to learn and get mileage, because in riding sports, you HAVE TIME. It isn`t like all those Olympic sports where you`re over the crest at 25 or 30, or even younger.

To reinforce Denny's point (as if I dare say that is needed) see this remark from Ian Millar (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=732608) who took a team silver in the Olympics yesterday:

Last year, at the age of 60, Mr. Millar said he believed he was at the peak of his career: "It sounds old but it's the right age for the sport, because so much of what happens out there is mental learning," he said in an interview with the National Post last year.

findeight

Aug. 19, 2008, 12:43 PM

Have to chime in here, even as a lowly Hunter rider.

I am looking square at 60 next year. Horse will be 20. We are better then ever BUT ONLY because of what each of us has done before, not because of what we do now.
ONLY because I did all kinds of riding on whatever was available, usually POS nobody else wanted, can I now take it a bit easier. I can work most of the time and only need to seriously school the horse a week or so before the shows. Horse is made and was made the old fashioned way-slowly. So it stuck forever. We do enough to stay fit and no more is needed at this point.

Despite 40 years, I still know what I don't know and find out even more I don't know ALL the time. So I still continue to grow as a horseman.

Yet I read about these kids that didn't have a varied background, never had to solve problems created by bad horses, riding just a few years or so competing at the top levels riding only 3 days a week and it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Then you get the too young and rushed thru the levels horses under that rider and...jeesh. Asking for it-and getting it.

Of course you get that same rider proclaiming themselves a "trainer" financed by their family (as they would never make it on their own). They get lucky and survive something and everybody thinks that makes them worth flocking to with young horses they want made into **** next week.

We get alot of that in Hunterland...people are never challenged and get to thinking they are a whole lot better then they are. But we have weenie fences and soft rings and don't get the dead horses and have very, very few rider fatalities. Bad riding and training for sure, nothing dead.

Hate to see that happening over here. But, as I said way back, I see it as the root of most of your troubles. Not all of course, but too much of it comes right back to that.

Ajierene

Aug. 19, 2008, 06:31 PM

Ah, the hunting.
While I would like to do it solely for the purpose of my riding and my horse dealing with it all. My horse in no way shape or form would ever go out hunting. not ever ever ever. Oh yeah, let me preface this by I'm not asking for help in this matter. If you met him, you would know.
So, instead during the summer, they have trail rides. And then if you're near a fixture and you know the land owners, they generally are more than willing to let you ride on their land. Meaning you can go out and enjoy the jumps and the terrain. And learn how to open and close gates.
Hey all you foxhunters, here's a little potential fund raiser. Take some non-foxhunters out for more of a trail ride with jumps. No hounds, no formal attire. Just lead us around a nice fixture and we pay a cap fee. I would go! Just let me know if there's going to be a ton of horses and if I can borrow one then.

I second this! I mentioned Fox hunting to my instructor once and she looked straight at me and said 'this horse could never deal with fox hunting'. My mare is a lot more sane than she used to be, but all those hounds running around, horses every which way, horns going off, people shouting seemingly randomly.....yeah, possibly not for her.

But yeah, a trail ride over fox hunting land to get into the groove of going and jumping - I would pay for that!

lesson junkie

Aug. 19, 2008, 06:36 PM

It's called a hunter pace. Most hunts have them. Get in touch with the hunt in your area.

melodiousaphony

Aug. 19, 2008, 07:56 PM

We have a youth frenzy here in the US, a sort of idea that if you aren`t there by 20, you`ve missed the boat.
I didn`t even see my first event until about a month before my 20th birthday, had never jumped a fence.

Listening to people looking at horses, more specifically what they are looking for in a horse, when knowing their riding ability has highlighted a related problem.
Not only do people seem to think they haven't got it if they aren't there yet, they seem to think that they need a young horse to do it.

What's with the young horse craze?

IMNotSoHO, someone who has never been to an event is putting them self in an avoidable position by taking a young, inexperience horse to it's first event/dressage show/etc. I listen to people list ages in their criteria that start something like "oh, well, I want a 6/7 year old, maybe 8 at the oldest" never adding anything reasonable such as "with a good amount of show experience." Instead, I hear things like "we can learn and grow together."

So now we have what, young horses with young riders, none of whom have experience or sense and one of which is hell bent on moving up NOW?

I suppose now is when I'm suppose to throw in a solution to this problem, but I'm not sure there is a fail safe solution. Trainers need to say "no," mommy and daddy need to listen to said trainer instead of finding one that will say "yes," and maybe, just maybe, there should be separate horse and rider qualifications.
On top of that, riders need to be HONEST about their qualifications so that organizers aren't between a rock and a hard place when they trust the entry forms to form divisions (but that's an entirely different rant for another thread).

My boyfriend, a non-horsey sort, LOVED that Ian Miller is an older gentleman. Because of riders like him, my boyfriend can back up my dreams because I CAN put in years and years, still getting to where I want to go in riding (with, you know, the blood, sweat, and bengay). Riders like him, Denny, etc. make me feel like I don't NEED to rush.
It also helps to have two awesome horses, 14 and 15 years old, who both believe their somewhere between six and eight physically, but with the sense that years bring.

Carol Ames

Aug. 30, 2008, 05:33 PM

This statement was made by Mrs. Erickson, and though i am sorry for her horrible:( loss; this is i is a good case for "rider responsibility;" aan t event 2 weeks before Galway downs; She had a similar:eek: fall , and ended up in the:no: hospital, then, ; two weeks later, the week before galway she totaled her:eek: car but, proceeded to start atGalway anyway; moving up a level, so, of course the jumps were getting more and more difficult:yes: ( duh) :mad:; she was moving up the levels; A further point for rider responsibility kn:mad:ow the rules! she had already been eliminated for four stops;but, chose to continue:no: on, despite attempts to flag her off the course; moreover :(according to the lawsuit, the horse had a history of falling:eek: let's be real folks, It is difficult to blame ourselves:yes: especially when we are "into":winkgrin: venting; there was a a l very long and informative discussion of this case after the HBO" program was aired, search under HBO it, this, the ESPN program was more hones:yes:t,HBO said nothing:no: about the pending lawsuit.:no::mad:

ne statement in the piece that I have to question is that ESPN said organizers were 'looking to increase fan interest' and so intentionally made courses more complex and thrilling. Is that really the case?

Eventer724

Aug. 30, 2008, 05:48 PM

The quote about the courses being more thrilling for spectators was taken from the interview with Mrs. Ericsson...she did not say so herself in the interview but Jeremy Schapp specifically says "quote..the course...ya dah ya dah"...so I think he was drawing from his interview with her. I was disappointed with the fact that ESPN included Mrs. Ericsson for all the above stated reasons in the previous post and think that unfortunatley, viewers who were not eventers or horse people got the wrong message that eventing is a sport that kills...it takes one explaining Mia's full situation for people to really understand why she died. It is hard though to portray the facts when it is such a personal situation as the loss of a child even though everyone in the know is aware of the danger she ignorantly put herself in.

ShortStirrupMom

Sep. 26, 2008, 03:11 PM

Dr. Doolittle

Sep. 27, 2008, 08:21 PM

"[quote=redlight;3444440]Tough piece to watch but I loved hearing Bruce and Denny. I have to ask myself though, if the mother's in the piece including Ms. Erickson were so nervous about their children riding cross country then why did they allow their children to do it? Please don't tell me it's because Muffy just loves eventing and it's all she dreams about. Give me a break."

Even though it's been some time since this thread and in particular this exerpted post above by redlight, I felt the need to reply since I just saw it for the first time.

It is actually my daughter in the ESPN piece riding her POA. For the past 3 years she rode hunters (and did extremely well). This past year she asked to go back to eventing, which is what she began riding 4 years ago (she's now 11). Although I love the Hunters, it was clear to me that my daughter much prefers the thrill of eventing, PARTICULARLY cross country. Perhaps this came from so frequently riding her pony on the trails with her best friend and jumping anything and everything they could. I don't know - but it was clear she wanted to Event. Now, while "I" may have some fear about eventing - does that mean I shouldn't allow my daughter to do what SHE wants to do? NO. What you weren't able to see on that piece were the OTHER things that I had said that were edited out. That although I do get nervous, I have to trust that I have provided her with the proper skill set through her training and that the unbelievable relationship she has with her amazing and trustworthy pony will deliver her to where she wants to be. My daughter DOES in fact LOVE eventing - and she absolutely LOVES the cross country piece of it. I honestly wouldn't care for a second if she never wanted to event again. I don't push her in the slightest (in fact, just the opposite). I know she has all the time in the world and there is no rush, whatsoever, to get to any particular level - in fact I'd be quite happy with her riding Beginner Novice forever!:yes:

Good for you! :yes:

I have a bunch of "lower level eventing" students, a number of whom are *children*, and many of whom are relatively new to eventing; I ALWAYS preach safety first (and I suspect that I'm a broken record on this issue, but SOMETIMES they (and their parents) listen--I wish they would always listen to the proverbial "voice of reason"--especially when it comes from someone they trust, and who is more experienced. However, if I am able to make *any* impact, I feel like I'm helping them, and saving them from potentially bad experiences (and I'm talking both horses AND riders), and ultimately, this is my goal. But I am only *one* lower level trainer...everyone needs to get on board, or NO safety initiatives are going to have an impact!!

A quick example: one of my students is in PC, getting ready to test for her C-2; she has a horse with whom she has done BN successfully (her background is in hunters, and this nice calm horse has done one Novice Ht with a pro), and this girl is planning to move up to N this fall...A friend of hers (also a PCer, and around the same age: 14-15) has an experienced UL horse (courtesy of her parents, who have LOTS if $$ to spend on this), and trains with an UL trainer, who is PUSHING this kid to do a *, and saying "I don't care if you don't feel ready--JUST DO IT!" :rolleyes:

Um. I know this is a competitive culture, but WHY are we in such a hurry, often at the expense of the riders AND the animals?!?

Geez, people, just slow down and enjoy the journey...do your best to "prepare your ass off", stay safe, and keep the big picture in mind.

And if you have children who are bring "pressured", use your common sense; talk to them, evaluate the situation, and do what's best...for *everyone* concerned. :yes: