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View Full Version : USA Dutton Disqualified from games.??



belambi
Aug. 12, 2008, 06:07 PM
What happened?

HORSEBACKRIDER
Aug. 12, 2008, 06:09 PM
The boots used were too heavy and violated a new FEI rule of which Dutton was not aware.

belambi
Aug. 12, 2008, 06:13 PM
OK..Correction to that. there are reports that Phillip has been disqualified from the 2nd sj round due to a technicality with some jumping boots


Phillip Dutton qualified for the second, individual jumping round, despite two rails down in the first round on Connaught, who he said was distracted by the lights. “Coming into fence 1 he was not concentrating; he was looking at everything apart from the jump,” he said. “He was still going high but not focusing on where he was going. It was a bit disappointing.”

“Maybe I should have taken more use of the time we had to jump under the lights the other night, but we thought after yesterday he’d be a bit tired and more concentrated,” he added. But he came back in the second round to jump flawlessly, only to be disqualified for a piece of equipment that wasn’t allowed. A pair of weighted boots that Connaught wore were found to be over the weight limit of 500 grams set by the FEI in February of 2008. According to Jim Wolf, U.S. Equestrian Federation Executive Director of Sports Programs, the boots, which were front boots applied to the hind legs, weighed just over 700 grams each. The rule change is a jumping rule modification which is applied to eventing

Kenike
Aug. 12, 2008, 06:23 PM
well, that sucks!

Equibrit
Aug. 12, 2008, 07:01 PM
Belambi did not paste the REST of the article ;

"We should have known about it, but we didn't for eventing," said Wolf
We should have known about it, but we didn't for eventing," said Wolf. "They felt heavy, so [the stewards] put them on a scale. I asked them to show me the scale, to make sure it was properly calibrated. Our federation owes Phillip an apology for not making him aware of [the change]. It's our federation's responsibility to make sure the athletes know the rules. Believe me, in the future we will be weighing everyone's boots in eventing. Phillip was unaware of the rule and certainly was not trying to give himself an unfair advantage. But the rule is on the books, and we're abiding by the rule, and Phillip is taking it on the chin."

belambi
Aug. 12, 2008, 07:51 PM
Thanks for that..Wasnt in the email I received.

LearnToFly
Aug. 12, 2008, 07:57 PM
darn that SUCKS!!

Whats the advantage of having heavier boots, I wonder?

phoebetrainer
Aug. 12, 2008, 08:49 PM
Heavier boots do the same thing as heavier shoes on TWH and the like. Horses tend to pick their feet up more with heavier boots and shoes.

Must go out and weigh my boots. Never knew about this rule.

chai
Aug. 12, 2008, 09:58 PM
That is a terrible shame.

Equibrit
Aug. 12, 2008, 10:02 PM
I always thought that the reason for using weight on a horse's legs was to improve the lift when you took the weight off. ie. train with weight and show without.

Flypony
Aug. 12, 2008, 10:29 PM
You would have to think that people at this level of competition would bother to get to know the rules.

Equibrit
Aug. 12, 2008, 10:34 PM
Easier said than done.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 12, 2008, 10:54 PM
Easier said than done.

It is an unfortunate situation, but there really is no excuse for failing to be aware of the applicable rules.

flshgordon
Aug. 12, 2008, 11:53 PM
I have to wonder why he would be using heavier boots in the first place.....?

gubbyz
Aug. 13, 2008, 12:04 AM
I know in the jumper world the boots are removed before going in the ring. Kind of like a baseball player swinging a bat with weights on it and then taking them off before stepping up to bat.

Maryalden
Aug. 13, 2008, 12:17 AM
From Phillip's blog. Did I miss something? :confused:

The US finishes 7th. Phillip and Connaught finish =12th in the individual medal competition on a 68.2 after a 40.6 in dressage, 19.6 time faults cross country, 8 jumping faults in the team stadium competition, and a clear round in the individual stadium jumping finals. Congratulations to Gina Miles and McKinlaigh for their silver medal in the individual competition!!

countingstrides
Aug. 13, 2008, 12:27 AM
I always thought that the reason for using weight on a horse's legs was to improve the lift when you took the weight off. ie. train with weight and show without.

Yeah - I'm kinda baffled about this as well. I can see how you might want to train with heavier boots, but why wear them in competition? I know that horses move better with aluminum shoes (lighter) than steel shoes (heavier) so we put aluminums on for shows, and keep steel on at home. Just like soemone mentioned the baseball bat analogy below, this seems like the opposite of what I'd expect the rule to be.

Too bad - he looked so thrilled at the end of that round.

Tap2Tango
Aug. 13, 2008, 12:44 AM
I know in the jumper world the boots are removed before going in the ring. Kind of like a baseball player swinging a bat with weights on it and then taking them off before stepping up to bat.

Not always true. I used to care for a GP horse who had his boots put on right before he entered the ring. The heavier weights made his hindend much more careful as he kicked up better with the extra weight.


I also agree that it's the rider/trainers job to know the rules.

Kenike
Aug. 13, 2008, 01:09 AM
I guess someone is going to be carting around a scale now, it's not like you can really FEEL the difference in 200 grams. Some can, but the majority can't.

Yes, all involved should've known the rule, new change, or not. But at least responsibility is being taken.

Old War Horse
Aug. 13, 2008, 10:00 AM
You mean to say that all those people that have jobs with USEF and NOT ONE of them knew the rule, or "mentioned it" to the coach or grooms or the riders????
Negligence, I think!

Maryalden
Aug. 13, 2008, 10:58 AM
According to Phillip's website, there's no mention of the DSQ. It claims he finished 12TH!!

shmeg<33
Aug. 13, 2008, 11:39 AM
Well that's weird, maryalden. I wonder what's up.... :confused:

Madeline
Aug. 13, 2008, 12:13 PM
I think it might be time for someone to insist on a rules refresher before major international competition. Between the heavy boots DQ and the extra refusal 40 points...

TSWJB
Aug. 13, 2008, 01:51 PM
You would have to think that people at this level of competition would bother to get to know the rules.

my thoughts exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dressage62
Aug. 13, 2008, 02:49 PM
I think in one of the stories I read, someone thought the rule was only for the Showjumping competition, not the showjumping phase for eventing.
It's really WHACK-- one webpage shows Phillip Dutton in 12th place, another webpage shows him DQ.

Tiki
Aug. 13, 2008, 02:59 PM
It is the rider's responsibility to know the rules. And certainly the coaches and trainers should as well.

Coreene
Aug. 13, 2008, 03:36 PM
it's not like you can really FEEL the difference in 200 grams. I am sure that every coke dealer and cokehead would disagree!

BridalBridle
Aug. 13, 2008, 03:37 PM
You mean to say that all those people that have jobs with USEF and NOT ONE of them knew the rule, or "mentioned it" to the coach or grooms or the riders????
Negligence, I think!

I sure have to agree with you. How in the hell do they expect us to donate and support them when they can't even get the weight of the boots right. I don't even let the rider off the hook on this one. If he's going to play THEN DAMN IT READ THE STUPID EASY RULES!!!! How embarrassing for our country. How many people had to blow that in order for him to be eliminated.

mosmom
Aug. 13, 2008, 04:27 PM
This is on the Eventing forum..

The FEI EVENTING Committee adopted the 1 fall rule, and made it effective Aug. 1 2008. They also notified us of this. The FEI JUMPER Committee wrote and adopted the 500g boot rule and in notifying us, specified that it would take effect for Eventing following review by the Eventing Committee and then, not before Jan. 1, 2009. No special notification was received regarding early adoption of the boot rule, so to me that means that it should not yet be in effect.

Malcolm

kateh
Aug. 13, 2008, 09:04 PM
How often do you weigh your horse's boots? Do you have it memorized? Or can you eyeball the difference between 500g and 700g in boots? Because I've been in alot of chem labs, and I can't. The only ones who should be griping is Dutton and the US team.

katherine w
Aug. 13, 2008, 09:07 PM
Just curious... why would you use that boot on a hind leg anyway?

subk
Aug. 13, 2008, 11:33 PM
This is on the Eventing forum..

The FEI EVENTING Committee adopted the 1 fall rule, and made it effective Aug. 1 2008. They also notified us of this. The FEI JUMPER Committee wrote and adopted the 500g boot rule and in notifying us, specified that it would take effect for Eventing following review by the Eventing Committee and then, not before Jan. 1, 2009. No special notification was received regarding early adoption of the boot rule, so to me that means that it should not yet be in effect.

Malcolm

Since I figure a lot of readers here may not be eventers (and some that are) so wouldn't know but, "Malcolm" is on the USEA Board of Gov. as well as the Chairman of the USEA Rules Committee. That's a big time heads up post.

If Malcolm is right, this is a mistake by the FEI NOT the US coaches and riders. The US Team coach and staff can't exactly inform the riders if they hadn't been informed by the FEI of the change! (And the FEI didn't even go through proper proceedure to make it a rule in the first place, so there is a chance they enforced a rule that wasn't actually one...)

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 14, 2008, 12:36 AM
How often do you weigh your horse's boots? Do you have it memorized? Or can you eyeball the difference between 500g and 700g in boots? Because I've been in alot of chem labs, and I can't. The only ones who should be griping is Dutton and the US team.

If it is a rule and is in effect, then buy a scale and weigh the stupid boots. You have to do whatever it takes to comply with the rules.

ESG
Aug. 14, 2008, 01:01 PM
I know in the jumper world the boots are removed before going in the ring. Kind of like a baseball player swinging a bat with weights on it and then taking them off before stepping up to bat.

Are you talking specifically about the weighted boots? Because in every jumper world I've ever seen, the horses show with boots on.

tangledweb
Aug. 14, 2008, 01:36 PM
How often do you weigh your horse's boots?

About as often as I measure my dressage whip, or the length of my spurs or check if my bit is legal. ie if I want to use something heavy, long or strong and know it is close to the legal limit I check.

I can certainly tell the difference between a normal 200g jumping boot and a 700g weight boot by hand though.

Haalter
Aug. 14, 2008, 02:12 PM
I am sure that every coke dealer and cokehead would disagree!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Yep, should have known the rules - both Dutton and the chef d'equipe. I had no idea about this rule and am going to weigh some boots now but then again I'm not representing my country at the Olympics...

ETA: Is this just an FEI rule or does it apply to USEF too?

Janet
Aug. 14, 2008, 02:18 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Yep, should have known the rules - both Dutton and the chef d'equipe. I had no idea about this rule and am going to weigh some boots now but then again I'm not representing my country at the Olympics...

ETA: Is this just an FEI rule or does it apply to USEF too?
At the moment, it is just an FEI rule.

Spocks mom
Aug. 14, 2008, 07:06 PM
I am wondering about this rule that caused his disqualification. I read online that the new rule is a 500 gram limit. I figured that is not much at all and decided to go to the barn and weigh some boots I ride in. Is that 500 grams per boot or per pair? I weighed a pair of Woof full hind boots (neoprene w/ rubber guard and double velcro closures) for a large horse (warmblood) and they weighed 680 grams. These boots used to be the standard for eventing when I did that 10 years ago. They are not weighted boots and I used to use them when I took my horse cross country for protection. It seems that 500 grams might get you a pair of short neoprene ankle boots but not much more. Just wondering what people know about this new rule.

Madeline
Aug. 14, 2008, 07:23 PM
As I read it, the rule is 500 grams per boot.

CBoylen
Aug. 14, 2008, 08:26 PM
I know in the jumper world the boots are removed before going in the ring. Kind of like a baseball player swinging a bat with weights on it and then taking them off before stepping up to bat.
Not everyone uses them that way, although some people do, and it does sound more logical. Many people though believe the added weight makes the horse more conscious and careful of the hind end and also use them in the show ring. Or did when they were more popular, now I see more Doda boots than anything.

Guilherme
Aug. 14, 2008, 08:28 PM
But the rule is on the books, and we're abiding by the rule, and Phillip is taking it on the chin."

Too bad they don't feel this way about rule violations in girl's gymnastics.

G.

joiedevie99
Aug. 14, 2008, 08:35 PM
At the moment, it is just an FEI rule.

Isn't there a USDA rule, which would obviously apply to USEF shows too? Anyone know what that weight limit is? My apologies if this came up already.

Janet
Aug. 15, 2008, 08:23 AM
Isn't there a USDA rule, which would obviously apply to USEF shows too? Anyone know what that weight limit is? My apologies if this came up already.
I believe so, and I THOUGHT it was a much lower limit (like 6 oz). I know I found it once on line.

But of course that would not apply outside US.

ETA
Found it
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/hp/hpatraining2004.pdf
scroll down to page 23


Specific Prohibitions:
�� ...
�� Boots or collars weighing more than 6 ounces, except for soft rubber or leather bell boots used for protective purposes.
�� ....
�� Boots or collars with protrusions or swellings, or rigid, rough, or sharp edges or seams....
which would seem to ban the Doda boots too.

PaintByNumber
Aug. 15, 2008, 01:05 PM
This is on the Eventing forum..

The FEI EVENTING Committee adopted the 1 fall rule, and made it effective Aug. 1 2008. They also notified us of this. The FEI JUMPER Committee wrote and adopted the 500g boot rule and in notifying us, specified that it would take effect for Eventing following review by the Eventing Committee and then, not before Jan. 1, 2009. No special notification was received regarding early adoption of the boot rule, so to me that means that it should not yet be in effect.

Malcolm

How can they implement a rule months earlier and not notify the USEA or anyone else?