why was dutton DSQ???

[ideayoda]

I didnt see all the stadium, what happened?

[magnolia73]

? His trip was clear. Maybe he made a technical error?

[BAC]

Could it be a mistake? I didn't see it but someone said they were still showing Lucinda tied for first in the results and she didn't even jump the second round.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I bet it is a computer glitch since he was tied....(and the loser of the tie breaker)

[Madeline]

Over-weighted boots, according to the COTH report.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

He is still listed as part of the team score.

[Sudi's Girl]

Boots??? Wow - chalk that one up to another "Wow, that Sucks!"

I feel so bad for the US this year! We had some horrible luck!!!
Thank goodness for Gina being the SILVER (hehe) lining!

[FlightCheck]

Good golly - I never knew about THAT rule. Wonder if they weighed them after both SJ rounds, or just after the individual?

[FairWeather]

oh SUCK!

[gottagrey]

Over-weighted boots, according to the COTH report.



Where did you see that - sadly I'm not a subscriber to COTH so I might not be able to read. Nothing on the USEA website and the darn Olympics Results had Gina Miles as being 5th and USEA says she's got the SILVER ! WHoo HOO YOU GO GIRL !!

[Janet]

Good golly - I never knew about THAT rule. Wonder if they weighed them after both SJ rounds, or just after the individual?
COTH says it is a new rule this year
A pair of weighted boots that Connaght wore were found to be over the weight limit set by the FEI. Prior to February 2008, there had been no weight limit for weighted boots, but a rule change to article 257.253 set the maximum weight allowed at 500 grams. Connaught's boots weighed more than that when weighed after he came out of the ring.

But I am a bit confused. NORMALLY DSQ (as opposed to Elim) means you are out of everything, all your horses, all competitions. But they seem to be applying it only to the individual results, not the team results.

[Ja Da Dee]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=1212907081247892&ShowArticle_ID=1131208084310203

Oh man, what a bummer. I agree, the US had some bad turns this time, but WOW, congrats to Gina pulling off the silver.

[Jealoushe]

Sounds like there is some missing info somewhere...

[Reds-n-Greys]

Can someone explain the rule? Does it give an advantage? Thanks

[Janet]

Where did you see that - sadly I'm not a subscriber to COTH so I might not be able to read. Nothing on the USEA website and the darn Olympics Results had Gina Miles as being 5th and USEA says she's got the SILVER ! WHoo HOO YOU GO GIRL !!
It is here
http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=1212907081247892&ShowArticle_ID=1131208084310203
and COTH is providing the Olympic coverage to everyone at no charge, not just subscribers.

Official individual results are here
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C73CG/EQX003101.shtml#EQX003101

Official Team results here
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C73CE/EQX403101.shtml#EQX403101

[tx3dayeventer]

Nevermind.... everyone else found it and posted

[Reds-n-Greys]

It's in the article titled Germans Own Eventing

[StrawberryFields]

wow! go gina!!

and poor phillip :no: what an unusual thing to det DQ for

[BAC]

Can someone explain the rule? Does it give an advantage? Thanks

Just a guess but maybe they are supposed to make the horse pick his feet up higher and so jump clean? I know they do that with saddlebreds where high action is desired.

[gottagrey]

The Germans may have won eventing I guess now the USA needs to kick some ---- in dressage and show jumping !

[ideayoda]

Weights can cause snapping up of the extremities, but cant they also get wet or heavier or etc??? What a bummer!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Just a guess but maybe they are supposed to make the horse pick his feet up higher and so jump clean? I know they do that with saddlebreds where high action is desired.


Yeah...except that is one of the most careful jumping horses in eventing...he is almost too careful of a jumper so I highly doubt it was done intentionally. I suspect it is a new rule so not all boots are manufactured to be within the specs, the boots got heavier with sweat and there was a difference in scales weighing them.

[Jealoushe]

Im sure they would have measured the boots after cross though so if the riders were unaware of the rule they would have been aware after cross-country yesterday...

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Im sure they would have measured the boots after cross though so if the riders were unaware of the rule they would have been aware after cross-country yesterday...


You use different boots on xc from what you use in stadium. Most use open fronts in stadium and full galloping boots in xc.

[Janet]

I admit I don't know my way around the FEI rule book as well as the USEF rule book, but the FEI eventing rules start with 500, and go from there.

Since the rule cited was 257.253, I would guess it is a general rule, applicable to all disciplines.

I'll try to figure it out.

[Janet]

Yeah...except that is one of the most careful jumping horses in eventing...he is almost too careful of a jumper so I highly doubt it was done intentionally. However, he DID have 2 rails down in the Team Show Jumping, so they MIGHT have decided on a change of equipment.

[FairWeather]

from my very unexperienced eye, Connaught was definitely jumping better in the second round. Was there a change of boots in between, or was he just more confident having been in there earlier?

[BAC]

Yeah...except that is one of the most careful jumping horses in eventing...he is almost too careful of a jumper so I highly doubt it was done intentionally. I suspect it is a new rule so not all boots are manufactured to be within the specs, the boots got heavier with sweat and there was a difference in scales weighing them.

I did not mean to imply that Phillip did it intentionally, only trying to explain why there might be a rule against weighted boots and why someone might want to use them. It actually never occurred to me that it was intentional in this instance, I thought it was just an oversight.

[Tuckertoo]

Wait, so does the weight rule apply to all boots for all jumping disciplines or just show jumping? Do you have to abide by that rule XC, too?

That's really a shame since he didn't even know that was a rule. Did anyone even know that it was?

[Janet]

Found it. It isn't in the General Rules, it is in the Show Jumping rules (and the Eventing rules reference the Show Jumping Rules)

Article 257 SADDLERY
....
2. Anywhere within the grounds of the event (restricted area)
under control of the OC:
...
2.3 The maximum weight allowed for a horse’s boot, front or hind, is
500g. Failure to comply with this paragraph will incur disqualification
(Art. 241.2.9).

And Disqualification under Jumping rules is
Article 241 DISQUALIFICATIONS
1. Disqualification means that a competitor and his horse or horses may
take no further part in a competition or in any other competition of the event.
So I guess it doesn't apply retroactively to the Team competition already completed.

[nycjumper]

I believe the rule applies across disciplines as they had notices posted all over the FEI tent at WEF about the new weight limits.

[pwynnnorman]

According to the COTH article, the rule was changed just this year from 700 to 500 and no one caught it. Jim Wolf, of USEF, apologized for not keeping the riders' apprised of the change. Read the COTH article and you'll get the strong feeling that it was simply something overlooked.

[BAC]

According to the COTH article, the rule was changed just this year from 700 to 500 and no one caught it. Jim Wolf, of USEF, apologized for not keeping the riders' apprised of the change. Read the COTH article and you'll get the strong feeling that it was simply something overlooked.

Aren't the riders also responsible for keeping up with any rule changes? At least no medals were involved, this way everyone on the team learned the hard way and I'm sure they won't overlook this rule again.

[omare]

I would wonder why you would purposely put weighted boots on such a good jumping horse ....whether for warm-up or otherwise.....(And I suspect a heavier boot is not heavier because of "sweat"....)

[Sannois]

The Germans may have won eventing I guess now the USA needs to kick some ---- in dressage and show jumping !

But I would not bet on it! I have only watched some Grand Prix this season, Who knows anything is possible! ;)

[Janet]

Wait, so does the weight rule apply to all boots for all jumping disciplines or just show jumping? Do you have to abide by that rule XC, too??
In the FEI Eventing rules, under (show) jumping it says

Article 534 RULES FOR JUMPING EVENTS
The “Rules for Jumping Events” apply for Eventing Jumping except where otherwise
provided in these rules. Any modification introduced by the FEI Jumping Committee during
the year will be evaluated for inclusion in these Rules for Eventing from 1st January the
following year.

Since the weighted boot rule was apparently approved in Feb 2008, it isn't immediately clear to me whether it applies to Eventing NOW, or only after Jan 1 2009. But I am sure they will work it out.

The FEI Eventing Cross Country rules do NOT reference “Rules for Jumping Events”, and there do not seem to be any cross country specific restrictions on weighted boots.

FWIW, in the US, I understand that there is a USDA (US Government) regulation which prohibits (horse) boots over 6 oz in ALL disciplines. It came out of the "soring" issues with Tennessee Walkers and Saddlebreds, but applies to all disciplines.

[pwynnnorman]

Aren't the riders also responsible for keeping up with any rule changes? At least no medals were involved, this way everyone on the team learned the hard way and I'm sure they won't overlook this rule again.

I dunno, BAC. I don't get the feeling that riders or their stablemanagers/grooms re-read the FEI rulebook every year. I have a feeling (with absolutely NO real knowledge to back it up), that FEI-level riders (especially BNTs) might actually rely on bulletins from USEF to catch stuff like this. It's an interesting question. Outside of horse sports, we'd probably call that sort of "keep up with your industry's rules" efforts along the lines of "professional developement," but I've met vets and farriers who don't keep up with current practices--which makes me wonder if busy riders are perhaps a bit dependent on others to help them in the same way. (That's not excusing them, of course. Just trying to illustrate how it was probably an innocent mistake.)

Gotta admit, though, now I'm dying to see what those boots looked like. How heavy is 700g?

[Janet]

According to the COTH article, the rule was changed just this year from 700 to 500 and no one caught it. Jim Wolf, of USEF, apologized for not keeping the riders' apprised of the change. Read the COTH article and you'll get the strong feeling that it was simply something overlooked.
Where did you see that it changed for 700 to 500? I just checked the 2007 FEI Jumping rules (I have them on my hard drive even though I don't often access them), and there is no restriction on weighte boots anywhere in 257. So it looks to me as if the whole restriction on weighted boots is new to 2008.

I suppose it is possible that they started Jan 1 2008 with a 700 g restriction, and then changed it to 500g in Feb (the current version says "updated 16 May, 2008").

[BAC]

I dunno, BAC. I don't get the feeling that riders or their stablemanagers/grooms re-read the FEI rulebook every year. I have a feeling (with absolutely NO real knowledge to back it up), that FEI-level riders (especially BNTs) might actually rely on bulletins from USEF to catch stuff like this.

You are probably right, I am not familiar with FEI rule changes and how riders are notified about them. I'm sure he just used the boots he always uses and unfortunately they turned out to be over the limit.

[Pixie Dust]

700 Grams (g) = 1.54 Pounds (lbs.)

500 Grams (g) = 1.1 Pounds (lbs.)

[BAC]

I suppose it is possible that they started Jan 1 2008 with a 700 g restriction, and then changed it to 500g in Feb (the current version says "updated 16 May, 2008").

Would they really change the rules less than 3 months before a major event like the Olympics? That would almost seem as if they are trying to catch someone purposely, I'm sure the last thing these riders have time for is reading so close to the Olympics.

[pwynnnorman]

Where did you see that it changed for 700 to 500? I just checked the 2007 FEI Jumping rules (I have them on my hard drive even though I don't often access them), and there is no restriction on weighte boots anywhere in 257. So it looks to me as if the whole restriction on weighted boots is new to 2008.

I suppose it is possible that they started Jan 1 2008 with a 700 g restriction, and then changed it to 500g in Feb (the current version says "updated 16 May, 2008").

COTH article:

A pair of weighted boots that Connaught wore were found to be over the weight limit of 500 grams set by the FEI in February of 2008. According to Jim Wolf, U.S. Equestrian Federation Executive Director of Sports Programs, the boots, which were front boots applied to the hind legs, weighed just over 700 grams each. The rule change is a jumping rule modification which is applied to eventing.

[snoopy]

According to the COTH article, the rule was changed just this year from 700 to 500 and no one caught it. Jim Wolf, of USEF, apologized for not keeping the riders' apprised of the change. Read the COTH article and you'll get the strong feeling that it was simply something overlooked.



Isn't that the "role" of the team manager, you know to say abreast of current rules...especially at say something like the Olympics.

[mjhco]

I admit I don't know my way around the FEI rule book as well as the USEF rule book, but the FEI eventing rules start with 500, and go from there.

Since the rule cited was 257.253, I would guess it is a general rule, applicable to all disciplines.

I'll try to figure it out.

This new rule applies to all FEI disciplines. At the NAJYRC I sat in on the FEI steward's briefing for the REINERS and he told them about the weight rule.

Like heavy boots will help a reiner...

Anyway, he did warn the competitors present. And also cautioned that WET boots will weigh more (most use Professional Choice type bell boots and brushing boots).

Yikes.

[pwynnnorman]

Isn't that the "role" of the team manager, you know to say abreast of current rules...especially at say something like the Olympics.

Sure sounds like it, read between the lines here:

"We should have known about it, but we didn't for eventing," said Wolf. "They felt heavy, so [the stewards] put them on a scale. I asked them to show me the scale, to make sure it was properly calibrated. Our federation owes Phillip an apology for not making him aware of [the change]. It's our federation's responsibility to make sure the athletes know the rules. Believe me, in the future we will be weighing everyone's boots in eventing. Phillip was unaware of the rule and certainly was not trying to give himself an unfair advantage. But the rule is on the books, and we're abiding by the rule, and Phillip is taking it on the chin."

[Pixie Dust]

What do you mean be "role" ???

[FlightCheck]

as I posted on the other thread, that must have been SOME conversation.

[snoopy]

What do you mean be "role" ???


you are answering a question with a question...

I am seeking an "answer"...

[Janet]

COTH article:
But that doesn't say they changed the rule from 700 to 500. It said the rule is 500 and they WEIGHED 700.

[Pixie Dust]

No, that was not an answer or an "answer". I didn't understand why you put role in quotation marks.

[pwynnnorman]

Yeah, I realized that after I wrote it, but didn't bother to go back since I figured you'd catch it. (And now I've managed to forget was the point/relevance was in the first place.)

[Janet]

This new rule applies to all FEI disciplines. At the NAJYRC I sat in on the FEI steward's briefing for the REINERS and he told them about the weight rule.

Like heavy boots will help a reiner...

Anyway, he did warn the competitors present. And also cautioned that WET boots will weigh more (most use Professional Choice type bell boots and brushing boots).

Yikes.
Do you know the rule number? I just did a search of the FEI general rules, and couldn't find anything. I did a search of the Reining rules and couldn't find it there either. Only in the Jumping rules could I find it.

[poopoo]

Isn't that the "role" of the team manager, you know to say abreast of current rules...especially at say something like the Olympics.

Hellooooo. Yes, to me it sure is. Sounds like someone screwed up, and I doubt it was the rider.... That's why we have people in these roles. That's why we have "helpers".....

[snoopy]

perhaps you could expain that to Pixt Dust please...but please do not use quotes....

[SLR]

After the show jumping round of the eventing at the NAJYRC this year, they (vets and stewards) were checking boots, seemed to be every 5 horses or so. They stood the horses on a rubber, swept, mat and then examined the boots. Thought they might be checking for metal. Maybe should have been a "heads up" that the FEI was watching for boot issues.

[Jealoushe]

You use different boots on xc from what you use in stadium. Most use open fronts in stadium and full galloping boots in xc.

Duh...I know that, since I do event and all! I meant they would have known to CHECK THE WEIGHT...since this is the Olympics and all. But reading the rest of the thread seems weight doesn't matter for cross...so ya, how did they not get informed??

[mjhco]

Do you know the rule number? I just did a search of the FEI general rules, and couldn't find anything. I did a search of the Reining rules and couldn't find it there either. Only in the Jumping rules could I find it.

I didn't hear the rule number. Sorry. And since I was in the midst of doing other work I didn't take the time to look it up--then forgot about it until this incident.

I'll ping the FEI Steward and try to get the answer. Maybe it is listed in a supplement somewhere.

[Janet]

Now the COTH report says
According to Jim Wolf, U.S. Equestrian Federation Executive Director of Sports Programs, the boots, which were front boots applied to the hind legs, weighed just over 700 grams each.
Why would you put front boots on the hind legs?

[Jealoushe]

It's pretty popular now, to wear open-fronts on the back since they dont really make open fronts for the back...or there are not many of them..

[OneDaySoon]

This is positively and utterly ridiculous on so many levels. Throw some extra thread in the tail, then minus a gallon of rider sweat, then minus a pound for the latest light weight helmet...oh did Phillip have a glass of water or two before he went back in the ring?

Sorry Janet, I will repeat often "I MUST know and respect the rules, I must know and respect the rules, I must know and respect the rules". Rinse and repeat but use a towel to lighten the load. ;)

[omare]

here is an FEI link

http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Eventing/News/Info_Eventing/Pages/summ.aspx?newsName=WelfareRule.aspx&inc=0

[flutie1]

The irony is that even if the boots weigh under 500 grams when they are put on the horse, if it's raining/muddy/whatever, they will weigh more after the jumping round and will be considered illegal.
We did boot checks at Jersey on every five horses after show jumping, but didn't weigh them.

[snoopy]

The irony is that even if the boots weigh under 500 grams when they are put on the horse, if it's raining/muddy/whatever, they will weigh more after the jumping round and will be considered illegal.
We did boot checks at Jersey on every five horses after show jumping, but didn't weigh them.


Yes agreed....and with the current trend of all that fleece on the inside it is bound to become heavier with rain. mud, and even the bits of footing that will get stuck in them. I understand the reasoning but in priciple not so much

[omare]

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:18569218

a link to the underlying mechanics that is suppose to be at work in a purposely weighted boot (who knows what was used here...)
was the horse know for not being tight with his hind end?

[retreadeventer]

How sad for Phillip and how dismaying for us.
This is what makes it hard to raise money for the USET....dumb mistakes....do they not have enough help in what they are doing? Whose responsibility is it to double check all rule changes on a periodic basis?
And don't forget the 10 min. vs. 8 min. course, and conditioning differently for it....

[Janet]

here is an FEI link

http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Eventing/News/Info_Eventing/Pages/summ.aspx?newsName=WelfareRule.aspx&inc=0

Thanks. That seems to support the position that it applies ONLY to FEI show jumping and the show jumping phase of FEI Eventing, but not to other FEI discipines such as reining or endurance or dressage.

[vineyridge]

Gonna have to set up a weigh in like racing has. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to weigh/check BEFORE the horses go into the ring, rather than afterwards. Would be a pain in the tail, but the mud/sweat/slop issues are going to make this rule terrible for the enforcers.

Anyone think the Hoy/Brugman flap had anything to do with the new focus on checking boots?

[Janet]

Anyone think the Hoy/Brugman flap had anything to do with the new focus on checking boots? The rule change was in February-before the "flap". I wonder if they have been CHECKING boot weight at the other FEI Events this year?

[Madison]

Where did you see that - sadly I'm not a subscriber to COTH so I might not be able to read. Nothing on the USEA website and the darn Olympics Results had Gina Miles as being 5th and USEA says she's got the SILVER ! WHoo HOO YOU GO GIRL !!

Gina was 5th after the first (team) jumping round. She apparently moved up to second after the second (individual) round that determined the medals. I totally forgot there would be a second round, so I can't wait to see the TV coverage. That is SO exciting! Thank goodness Phillip Dutton was out of the medals anyway - terrible to get DQ'd like that regardless, but much much worse if it took you off the podium.

[tangledweb]

Given that there is no specific weighing procedure or time specified in the rules, I am sure that a rider could have borderline boots reweighed after they had time to dry.

500 grams is a lot for a boot. I think it is a pretty unfortunate situation, and I can see how nobody noticed if the rule is not in the eventing section, but it is a situation you only get into by deliberately seeking out "heavy" boots even if they are not precisely "weighted" boots.

[kcrubin]

at those weights and a large horse - leather, thick fleece, sand and water - doesn't sound like it had to be a specific "weighted" boot - so sad!

[tangledweb]

Thanks. That seems to support the position that it applies ONLY to FEI show jumping and the show jumping phase of FEI Eventing, but not to other FEI discipines such as reining or endurance or dressage.

Anything not specifically excluded from the jumping rules applies to eventing jumping. See Article 534 RULES FOR JUMPING EVENTS
The “Rules for Jumping Events” apply for Eventing Jumping except where otherwise provided in these rules. ...

[Speedy]

I won't cry for a professional of that caliber not reading the rules before such a big competition. It might have been a good use of time on the ride over.

I also won't cry for a professional who uses weighted boots. Period. Regardless of whether or not he or she thinks its within the rules. 500 to 700 grams is LOT of boot and you aren't using them by accident.

[Janet]

Anything not specifically excluded from the jumping rules applies to eventing jumping. See Article 534
Yes. I quoted 534 earlier (post 36 I think).

But someone else was claiming that it applied to ALL FEI disciplines, such as reining. That is what I don't immediately see.

[girlgoneriding]

I seriously doubt that this was an oversight and he meant to take them off before he went into the ring. That would not happen. He meant to use those boots because he had rails in his first round. I would bet money on it. And these boots didn't weigh too much because they were wet or sweaty or full of sand. They are specifically designed for hind legs and they are built to be heavy.

The only thing that happened was Phillip didn't know the rules.

Funny thing. A few weeks ago I drove by a cop giving somebody a ticket. Next thing I know I am getting pulled over, not for speeding but because there is apparently a law in my state that says if you drive by an emergency vehicle on the side of the road you must either pull into the other lane or "slow down significantly". I had never heard of that law in my life. But guess what! I still got a ticket! A pretty big one at that!

Since when is not knowing the rules an excuse for breaking them? I'm sorry but this makes me really angry. Using weighted boots, of 700 or 800 grams or whatever just borders on a sketchy grey area of cheating in my book. If I was going to use them I would make damn sure I double checked the rule book. Rider responsibility anyone?

This is just the icing on the cake of things that disgust me at this level of the sport. God only knows what they did to that horse between x-c and the jog just to get it to jog sound and show jump period. People get worked up on these boards about issues they consider to be horse abuse that absolutely pale in comparison to what happens in the barns on Saturday night at a CCI****. Want to know why eventers are so hush hush about their horse's injuries? Its because if the public knew what was wrong with their horses there is no way they'd ever make it through Sunday morning. I agree with what Jan wrote on her blog, about there being too much pressure in this country put on the 3 day goals every 6 months. It makes people do crazy things to their horses. And Phillip is one of the worst. I've been there, I've seen it... I think it will be interesting to see how many of those team horses get retired in the coming months.

[nycjumper]

I also won't cry for a professional who uses weighted boots. Period. Regardless of whether or not he or she thinks its within the rules. 500 to 700 grams is LOT of boot and you aren't using them by accident.

500 grams isn't that much, it's a little more than an pound. And no, you're not using them by accident, you're using them as a training tool. As tools go, it's a pretty mild one.

But still surprised that a) one would go into the ring with them on, I've only ever seen them used in warm-ups and b) that no one in the eventing world at that level knew about the rule change. Bad luck indeed...

[omare]

indeed if it was sloppy you would think folks would not be showing in a sheepskin lined water absorbing boot as some want to believe...if nothing else to assure they do not slip....and 700 g converts to (I think) 24 oz - a lot of boot....

[kcrubin]

girlgoneriding who are you since you say you've been there and seen it

[snoopy]

girlgoneriding who are you since you say you've been there and seen it



Why is this required to prove validity of one's posts? The fact is that most do not want to hear about the business behind the show....hero worship disguises a multiple of sins.

I have no way of knowing if this was an oversite, if it was known, or if it was intentional.

[kcrubin]

she said she's been there and seen it, not unusual to have a name attached to claims like that imo.

not trying to be inflammatory but . . .

[snoopy]

she said she's been there and seen it, not unusual to have a name attached to claims like that imo.

not trying to be inflammatory but . . .


but to imply that because she/he does not attach a name that he/she's story has no merit? Perhaps annonimity allows the poster to speak freely.

[closetoperfectionfarm]

Is that 500 grams total for both boots or 500 per boot?
500 grams converts to 1.1 LB....thst is not a lot of weight there.

[kcrubin]

but to imply that because she/he does not attach a name that he/she's story has no merit? Perhaps annonimity allows the poster to speak freely.

I'm afraid that is YOUR interpretation. I merely asked a name.

[snoopy]

I'm afraid that is YOUR interpretation. I merely asked a name.


WHY?

[Speedy]

Is that 500 grams total for both boots or 500 per boot?
500 grams converts to 1.1 LB....thst is not a lot of weight there.

It is per boot, and he was at 700 grams, I think.

[BigRuss1996]

My guess would be so they can report back who was talking out of school....

WHY?

[girlgoneriding]

Maybe someday when I'm old and wrinkled I'll out myself. But for now I content myself by treating my own horses with dignity and honor and doing my best to encourage the people I work for to do the same.

To me there is no issue here of "proving" my statements or not. Believe me or don't. If I wanted to change the world I'd write up my stories and submit them to the COTH in proper article form.

I guess that one might argue that if I'm not willing to name names then there's no point to my statements. And if someone said that, they'd probably be right. But this incident has made me very angry and sad for Connaught and all the other horses who didn't exactly get a soak in some ice, a poultice and a good nights sleep before the jog. I don't think that anything I'm insinuating is a big secret. Go groom at a 3 or 4 * and see for yourself. People are not in their stalls at 11pm or 4:30am feeding their horses carrots and telling them they love them.

And as for the original issue, the boots. Give me a break! I'm angry that noone else seems very angry. This man just got caught cheating at the single biggest international competition in the world. The only international competition that the general public will ever be exposed to. And he is representing our country. Our team only finished 3 riders because of his decision to use those boots. Does the FEI really change so many rules every year that they are that hard to follow?

[kcrubin]

I think we all realize that anonymous postings can be valuable to allow free expression.
They can also allow people to be low, nasty, liars, etc. Not specifically the recent post either but in general.

[omare]

I with you "girl" (and definitely not a fan of PD).

[lxt]

But this incident has made me very angry and sad for Connaught and all the other horses who didn't exactly get a soak in some ice, a poultice and a good nights sleep before the jog. I don't think that anything I'm insinuating is a big secret. Go groom at a 3 or 4 * and see for yourself. People are not in their stalls at 11pm or 4:30am feeding their horses carrots and telling them they love them.


Um, maybe not with the carrots, but certainly with the icing and walking? Have been involved with ULRs at 3* and grooms were icing, walking, checking horses throughout the night as needed. That's how you keep inflammation and stiffness at bay.

[kcrubin]

girlgoneriding I disagree that he was cheating - I think it was a mistake and a very upsetting one for everyone involved. I know we're all upset. I'm not going to add any more since you have posted and want to remain anonymous. That's all I was interested in.
Phillip is a fine horseman. Your post suggested otherwise. My views are not clouded by hero worship but from working with him for many, many years with my horses and other animals.

[Janet]

I, for one, would EXPECT a world class rider at the top of his game, to know exactly what (legal) tack changes to make when a horse that is known for going clear pulls rails behind - whether that is changing bits, changing saddle pads, or changing boots.

The error is in not knowing the rule change- not in making tack changes believed to be legal.

I quite agree that there is a lot of "micromanagement" in preparing the horse for the third day jog. But that is a very different issue from making believed-to-be-legal tack changes.

[girlgoneriding]

I'd just like to add that my post has nothing to do with my personal feelings towards Phillip. I would write the same thing no matter who had done this. And while I claim he is "one of the worst" I could easily insert about 10 other names there without feeling an ounce of guilt that I was stretching the truth. From where I sit, I am not making an emotional outburst. Simply stating my own experience of reality.

The truth is that these horses get the best of absolutely everything. But I find myself wondering sometimes if they are getting the best of whats available for the rider or for the horse. Because there is definitely a difference.

A sound horse at the jog does not a sound horse make.

[girlgoneriding]

Um, maybe not with the carrots, but certainly with the icing and walking? Have been involved with ULRs at 3* and grooms were icing, walking, checking horses throughout the night as needed. That's how you keep inflammation and stiffness at bay.

Icing and walking are definitely not what I have a problem with.

[sofiethewonderhorse]

I guess that one might argue that if I'm not willing to name names then there's no point to my statements. And if someone said that, they'd probably be right. But this incident has made me very angry and sad for Connaught and all the other horses who didn't exactly get a soak in some ice, a poultice and a good nights sleep before the jog. I don't think that anything I'm insinuating is a big secret. Go groom at a 3 or 4 * and see for yourself. People are not in their stalls at 11pm or 4:30am feeding their horses carrots and telling them they love them.
?


Umm, you are out of bounds here… I have been in stabling at both 3 Star & Rolex...horses are taking care of in their stalls at all hours of the day and night, depending on their needs.

What makes you think Cannaught didn't get a soak in ice and poultice?

[sofiethewonderhorse]

Agreed.

I, for one, would EXPECT a world class rider at the top of his game, to know exactly what (legal) tack changes to make when a horse that is known for going clear pulls rails behind - whether that is changing bits, changing saddle pads, or changing boots.

The error is in not knowing the rule change- not in making tack changes believed to be legal.

I quite agree that there is a lot of "micromanagement" in preparing the horse for the third day jog. But that is a very different issue from making believed-to-be-legal tack changes.

[vineyridge]

When I first learned that event horses were hydrated after endurance day with IV drips, I was SHOCKED. SHOCKED, I say, SHOCKED!! :lol: Do you suppose the cavalry did such things to their horses? :winkgrin:

BTW. how about sharing some of those "deep in the watches of the night" barn secrets? If drugs are illegal, what can be done other than massage or hydration with minerals? Or soaks and poultices? I'd be very interested in the "micro-managing."

[snoopy]

Maybe someday when I'm old and wrinkled I'll out myself. But for now I content myself by treating my own horses with dignity and honor and doing my best to encourage the people I work for to do the same.

To me there is no issue here of "proving" my statements or not. Believe me or don't. If I wanted to change the world I'd write up my stories and submit them to the COTH in proper article form.

I guess that one might argue that if I'm not willing to name names then there's no point to my statements. And if someone said that, they'd probably be right.


THANK YOU!!!

[lxt]

girlgoneriding: I wish you'd tell us what you do have a problem with, because right now I have no idea! (In the nicest possible way)

[snoopy]

My views are not clouded by hero worship but from working with him for many, many years with my horses and other animals.



Hey BigRuss!!!! Looks like you could be spot on:cool:

[Sightunseen]

Well first off I have always been a fan of the saying "Show me a Sound horse and I will show you a Lier". I do not believe that ANY horse over the age of 10 who has been in active work is "completely sound". Secondly I went and weighed my stapler (first thing I grabber) to try to get an idea of how much weight we are talking about...my stapler weighs 1.12 lbs. so a little less then the required 500g, and thinking about it well my Woof boots probably weigh about this much, and they are just the simple neoprine boots, I could easily see open fronts "accidentally" being over the weight limit, it just does not seem to me that with how little over they were that they were intentionally used as "weighted" boots. And as far as the things that ULR do to their horses, YR are easily as bad, when I went to NAYRC I watch a rider and grooms soak a horses feet in ice 20 on 20 off for like 3 hours leading into jog outs, and the horse trotted out sound, though when the horse stopped jumping in stadium there was a lot of speculation that it was because when he trotted out, he was probably sound because he could not feel his feet. I am not say this is right wrong or otherwise, but I dont think its "An ULR thing"

[kcrubin]

Hey BigRuss!!!! Looks like you could be spot on:cool:

didn't deny it Snoopy - are you one of those that likes to stir things up when nothings there or something?

[bambam]

. This man just got caught cheating at the single biggest international competition in the world. . . .
Our team only finished 3 riders because of his decision to use those boots.
pretty sure he was counted for the team and only DQ'd for individual so it did not hurt the team
Did he intentionally break the rule? I really really doubt he is that dumb because you would have to be to knowingly risk getting caught over a 200 gram weight difference when riding a historically excellent showjumper. Should he have known the rules? you betcha!
and he certainly paid a price for it- smarts to be DQ'd at the Olympics even when there is no medal at issue
of all the things I might get outraged over, this is not one of them (and really, it is not that hard to get my ire up :)) 700 grams really is not very much

[Sightunseen]

When I first learned that event horses were hydrated after endurance day with IV drips, I was SHOCKED. SHOCKED, I say, SHOCKED!! :lol: Do you suppose the cavalry did such things to their horses? :winkgrin:

BTW. how about sharing some of those "deep in the watches of the night" barn secrets? If drugs are illegal, what can be done other than massage or hydration with minerals? Or soaks and poultices? I'd be very interested in the "micro-managing."

At NAYRC in 01 we tubed all the horses for like 3 days strait when they got to Chicago, they are used to the heat in CA but that humidity is a killer!!

[snoopy]

didn't deny it Snoopy - are you one of those that likes to stir things up when nothings there or something?


you choose....

[enjoytheride]

I think girlgoneriding is trying to say that many people think the eventing horses get cooled out properly, then put in their stalls with some hay and grain then pulled out the next morning, warmed up, then they go jump.

A friend of mine was horrified to find that even though they obviously went through a great deal of "care" after they ran XC to be sound for the jog some of the horses spend less time taking a snooze and relaxing and more time being walked all night long or being iced so they didn't stop moving long enough to get the chance to be sore and were "sound" the next day.

[Mudroom]

Our team only finished 3 riders because of his decision to use those boots.

The "issue" happened in the second round of show jumping and only affected individual placings, not team placings.

Team placings:
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C73CE/EQX403101.shtml#EQX403101

Individual:
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C73CG/EQX003101.shtml#EQX003101

[BigRuss1996]

Lol!... Snoopy you dog... I already knew the poster was intimately involved with that barn...so it just makes sense.
Unionville is a very small town you know!


Hey BigRuss!!!! Looks like you could be spot on:cool:

[snoopy]

and exactly why I asked the question...WHY?

And before anyone jumps on me, go back and read my posts on this thread and the topics I included with those posts.

I will reiterate that I have no way if knowing of this was an oversite or intentional.

[joiedevie99]

According to Brian O'Connor's blog, Phillip used the same boots in the team round.

"He used the same equipment for the team jumping, but apparently, his boots were not part of the random selection for testing. However, in the individual round (a separate class of competition ) his horse's boots were selected for testing... and , well, he got busted." http://special.equisearch.com/blog/brianoconnor/

[snoopy]

and this is something else Brian said:

"Yes, I may get some grief for this opinion, but, hey, this issue has been out there all year…riders, coaches, and officials are all on board with this decision. Accountability.... we expect it... I can only hope that Phillip did not know, or was unaware of the problem."


Which follows on from my post about team manager responsibility.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I will say it here and then I'm basically done with this board...sick of all this negative crap. Weighted boots were an old method to make a horse sharper. They would be used in WARM UP and then taken OFF for the class. I have no idea why the FEI passed a rule unless that rule is also applying to the warm up. But I do know that folks using weighted boots to make a horse sharper for jumping are using boots that weigh MORE than 700 grams...and are not using those boots in the class....that would defeat the purpose.

I also think that many of the larger leather boots would easily surpass this weight limitation....and I would NOT consider those boots "weighted" boots. The "weighted" boots that I saw actually HAD weights in them.

I learned about "weighted" boots 15+ years ago. NO I never used them or took care of a horse that needed them....but as a show groom, you learn things. But they are not a common thing used...probably because they do not work well. I can also tell you of a LOT worse things that I've seen people do to make a rail breaker pick up their feet....enought that I'm a firm believer is just plain starting with a a careful horse and NOT screwing them up.

The horse jumped better in the second round because he probably got much more comfortable in the ring by the second trip and the second course looked like it rode easier.

[subk]

Just a little information that folks might find interesting. When Jim Wolf said,
"We should have known about it, but we didn't for eventing," said Wolf... Our federation owes Phillip an apology for not making him aware of [the change]. It's our federation's responsibility to make sure the athletes know the rules."

What I think he is talking about here is a newsletter that is sent to all long listed riders every few months that updates them on all the technical aspects of competing internationally. It typically covers everything from FEI qualification changes to detail information on the process of being considered for whatever Team event is next on the agenda. It is put out by the federation and this type of change would normally be highlighted in it. The mailing is detailed, extensive and seemingly very official.

I don't get the newsletter anymore, but I'd bet anything that what Wolf is referring to is that they failed to include this rule change in the newsletter. If I'm right, that would be a hugh error on the Federations part and they certainly would owe Dutton an apology. While yes, I think it is incumbent on a rider of his caliber to stay on top of the rules, it isn't unreasonable for him to expect the Federation to keep him informed as they would have done so for every other change--through the federation official publication whose purpose is to inform riders of these type of situations.

So before ascribing evil intent, I'd sure like to know if this rule change made into the Long Listed riders newsletter. If it didn't, I'm significantly more inclined to cut him some slack. Anybody here on the List and have your back copies?

(Who knew that making "Long List" is really just a making it on to a mailing list! Ha!)

[Janet]

I have no idea why the FEI passed a rule unless that rule is also applying to the warm up.
Yes, the prohibition on weighted boots applies to warm up
2. Anywhere within the grounds of the event (restricted area)
under control of the OC:

[Sebastian]

Bottom line -- it's a stupid rule. AND, once again, not based on any real hard evidence.

Show jumpers have been using weighted boots for YEARS because MAYBE it helped, but here is never going to be an concrete evidence that it's performance enhancing. Frankly, if weighted boots are going to be considered performance enhancing -- so should different bits... It's just equipment and if it isn't "abusive," why make it illegal. Hell, certain bits -- in the wrong hands -- ARE abusive...as can be spurs, etc. (...sigh...) The FEI really has it's head up it's arse with some of this stuff... You'd REALLY think they had better things to do with their time and money...

Rant over.
Seb :cool:

[snoopy]

Isn't that the "role" of the team manager, you know to say abreast of current rules...especially at say something like the Olympics.



Jim seems to back up my statement....



When Jim Wolf said,
"We should have known about it, but we didn't for eventing," said Wolf... Our federation owes Phillip an apology for not making him aware of [the change]. It's our federation's responsibility to make sure the athletes know the rules."



Pixy Dust????

[JER]

Some facts about weighted boots.

If you're shopping for weighted boots, SmartPak has 'em (http://www.smartpakequine.com/productclass.aspx?productClassid=3113).

The weights are removable. So you could do two rounds with the same boots, with weights removed or inserted.

You can also buy different weights for the boots. You can also buy boot liners that have pockets for weights.

I don't know PD or habits of BNRs/Olympians. I'm just saying you could use the same boots with and without weights.

The problem, of course, is that using the weights is cheating.

[Badger]

Phillip may still be disqualified from the team score, dropping us further than 7th:

"Phillip, who had finished tied for 12th individually after a fault-free final round, was disqualified, though his 8-penalty trip in the team fray was allowed to stand, at least for the moment. The FEI is still looking into the matter."

http://equisearch.com/equiwire%5Fnews/olympics2008/eventing/eventing%5Ffinal%5F081208/

[sofiethewonderhorse]

Bottom line -- it's a stupid rule. AND, once again, not based on any real hard evidence.

Rant over.
Seb :cool:

:yes::yes::yes:

As a Draft, my beloved Sofie's boots would break this rule....her legs are the diameter of small trees!

If you think about weighting from a 'training' standpoint, logic says you would use the heavier boots for training and then switch to the lighter boots in the competition. Isn't that what the Walker/SB people do?

[snoopy]

but Brian states that riders, officals, and coaches are on board with this change....:confused: And if there was debate then wouldn't everyone be aware of the change....one fall you're out anyone?

[Janet]

Phillip may still be disqualified from the team score, dropping us further than 7th:

"Phillip, who had finished tied for 12th individually after a fault-free final round, was disqualified, though his 8-penalty trip in the team fray was allowed to stand, at least for the moment. The FEI is still looking into the matter."

http://equisearch.com/equiwire%5Fnews/olympics2008/eventing/eventing%5Ffinal%5F081208/

But it would only drop us to 8th (behind Ireland).

[snoopy]

But it would only drop us to 8th (behind Ireland).



ONLY 8th:no:

[Janet]

ONLY 8th:no:
Only one spot. Currently "only" 7th.

[snoopy]

Only one spot. Currently "only" 7th.


I was playing on the word "only";)

[poopoo]

Jim Wolfe openly admits to the problem.... Phillip used those boots for team and individual show jumping. Did anyone think that maybe the horse jumped better because he and the rider knew the fences and how they rode??? Someone screwed up, that's all, and they are admitting it.

[Sebastian]

:yes::yes::yes:

As a Draft, my beloved Sofie's boots would break this rule....her legs are the diameter of small trees!

If you think about weighting from a 'training' standpoint, logic says you would use the heavier boots for training and then switch to the lighter boots in the competition. Isn't that what the Walker/SB people do?

:lol: :lol: :lol: Exactly!!

I sort of chalk the whole thing up to "hooey" (yes, that's a technical term... ;) ) Like pulling shoes in a HUS class to get better movement. :rolleyes: If anyone bothers to figure out the physics of it all...it's a ridiculous NON-issue. To say that weighted boots is cheating is beyond absurd. And, Phillip only proved that, if you compare his two rides...

And, considering some of the REAL abuses and REAL cheating that goes on...

Seb :)

[drsg4me]

As someone who has also been "behind the scenes" at both Fair Hill and Rolex, I too know what goes into the care of horses of this level. I can honestly say when I was in the barns (and yes, I was one of the people out hand walking the horse I was grooming for at all hours of the night) that I have not seen anything that I considered questionable. Now, that being said- I know that there are always places people can go where they are not in plain sight- even under the increased security of an FEI barn. That being said- it also means that I am not in every barn preparing for these events...so what some of these people do to keep or get their horses sound to get to a 3 day I can't speak for. All I know is what I've seen, and that is nothing but the best care for all these horses!

I too think this rule is stupid. If Phillip was in fact trying to use weighted boots (which I find very very very hard to believe, esp on a horse who jumps as great as Connaught!) I don't see how this is really any different than jacking the jump up for a hard rub before the horse goes into the ring so they pick their feet up in the ring, really. And I can honestly tell you.....I jacked the jump up a good bit for a hard rub before my upper level horse went in the ring. Did wonders..... JMHO

[snoopy]

It was not weighted boots but rather over weight boots. I think that is important to keep in mind.

[tuppysmom]

One of my jobs on our little eventing team is to keep track of all of these rule changes, etc. I read all the Long List newsletters and such. I had not seen this rule change. I suppose that I missed it buried in the general sj rules. anyway...

We have had our horses' boots checked many times for "foreign" objects, but have never had them weighed. I'll be weighing the Nun Finer American Style boots as well as the sj boots, for sure.

We just got a nice WB horse in for training. He has hefty legs. He brought his own boots with him. They look like the Heidi Boots except that they are leather. I bet they weigh too much!

I have spent a lot of time the last few years in the FEI barns at various events in a couple of countries. The FEI stewards are always making their rounds through the barn from the first day to the last. They sneak a peak in your tack stall, your trunks, pet your horse on the nose. They are always present. The barns are closed from 11pm to 5 am and horses are to reamon in their stalls during those hours. Most stewards would not be happy to find you there during those hours.

[mbarrett]

It was not weighted boots but rather over weight boots. I think that is important to keep in mind.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just don't know what the difference is between weighted boots vs. over weight boots? What's the rational behind the rule?

You'd think they'd post this rule on the inside of the port-a-potty door at the Olympics.

[tangledweb]

In the interest of science, I weighed some boots.

Basic Dover brand horse size plastic neoprene lined jumping boot: 202g
Woof XL size 2 strap neoprene boot. 242g
CWD XL (size 3) leather hind eventing boot 415g.

The CWD is the heaviest boot I own, but seriously they are enormous. They cover from pastern to hock and are about 15" high. Model GE12 here: http://www.cwdsellier.com/?currentPage=Collection&family=GE

I don't think it is fair to assume that he knew he was breaking the rules, but I do think it is fair to assume that he was deliberately seeking a heavy boot. I don't think you can accidentally find a 700g showjumping boot.

[sofiethewonderhorse]

Tuppy, You didn't know about this? really? That Rule was buried underneath 10 layers of manure if Tuppy hadn't picked up on it! Now that is truly amazing.

I had a thought though: they tried to 'spin' Phillip in the first trot up....remember, the long hold over the girth gall?

Phillip's comment: 'a lot of nonsense about nothing' (SIC)



One of my jobs on our little eventing team is to keep track of all of these rule changes, etc. I read all the Long List newsletters and such. I had not seen this rule change. I suppose that I missed it buried in the general sj rules. anyway...

We have had our horses' boots checked many times for "foreign" objects, but have never had them weighed. I'll be weighing the Nun Finer American Style boots as well as the sj boots, for sure.

We just got a nice WB horse in for training. He has hefty legs. He brought his own boots with him. They look like the Heidi Boots except that they are leather. I bet they weigh too much!

I have spent a lot of time the last few years in the FEI barns at various events in a couple of countries. The FEI stewards are always making their rounds through the barn from the first day to the last. They sneak a peak in your tack stall, your trunks, pet your horse on the nose. They are always present. The barns are closed from 11pm to 5 am and horses are to reamon in their stalls during those hours. Most stewards would not be happy to find you there during those hours.

[Gry2Yng]

Regardless of fault, if this were Major League Baseball or the West Wing, Jim Wolf would be looking for a job with the Italians right now.

[sofiethewonderhorse]

Are you saying the type of boot? the one that you could add weight? or take away weight? the link that was posted to one of the vendors (sorry, not going back 3 pages to figure it out)

It was not weighted boots but rather over weight boots. I think that is important to keep in mind.

[poopoo]

"Weighted" as in the purpose for the boots - to protect the legs and the boots just happen to be to heavy due to construction and weather conditions...water...mud....doodie...what have you, or being heavy on purpose - going on the theory that it will make them pick their legs up higher.....

[three_dayer]

that was william fox pitt with the girth gall...i agree with tuppy's mom, ive done plenty of 3-days both as a groom and a rider and i havent noticed anything out of the ordinary... and they are very strict, ive gotten kicked out of the barn at 11:00 a few times...i weighed my nunn finer boots and 1 hind boot weighed 260 g, humm thought that they would be heavier....my open front eskindron boots(with fleece)1 front weighs 220 g dry and 270 g soaking wet, so who knows what he was wearing. im being a bit neurotic, but i was just interested...

[poopoo]

that was william fox pitt with the girth gall...i agree with tuppy's mom, ive done plenty of 3-days both as a groom and a rider and i havent noticed anything out of the ordinary... and they are very strict, ive gotten kicked out of the barn at 11:00 a few times...

Do you have a German Shepard or do you use a white cane?

[BigRuss1996]

hahahaha...I'm sorry.... LMAO!


Do you have a German Shepard or do you use a white cane?

[three_dayer]

that was funny, but still i havent, course if you think that taking care of your horse, icing walking, using a magnetic blanket out of the ordinary, then there you go

[flutie1]

Regardless of fault, if this were Major League Baseball or the West Wing, Jim Wolf would be looking for a job with the Italians right now.

And they probably wouldn't hire him!

[snoopy]

Do you have a German Shepard or do you use a white cane?


:lol: classic!!

[RoeVee]

totally made me giggle too!:lol:

[tuppysmom]

We do pull out all the stops on Saturday night, for sure, but all within the rules. We run fluids, run the Game Ready, run the laser and the blanket, ( none of which we own, but eventers are nice and will loan you what you need!),ice, walk 5 min every hour, feed carrots.

I guess that I'm just too busy minding my own to notice all the illicit stuff that must be happening all around me?!

[Maryalden]

From Phillip's blog. Did I miss something?

The US finishes 7th. Phillip and Connaught finish =12th in the individual medal competition on a 68.2 after a 40.6 in dressage, 19.6 time faults cross country, 8 jumping faults in the team stadium competition, and a clear round in the individual stadium jumping finals. Congratulations to Gina Miles and McKinlaigh for their silver medal in the individual competition!!

[Innocent Bystander]

Jim Wolfe openly admits to the problem.... Phillip used those boots for team and individual show jumping. Did anyone think that maybe the horse jumped better because he and the rider knew the fences and how they rode??? Someone screwed up, that's all, and they are admitting it.While I appreciate the fact that they are openly admitting to the problem, both JW and CMP were hired and paid good money by the US to make sure things like this didn't happen. That they had no idea the rule existed or applied to Eventing is inexcusable in my book. Even more inexcusable will be if neither one of them are held accountable for their actions. What an embarrassment for the US.

[LLDM]

For those of you who don't think 500 gms (~1.1 Lbs) or 700 gms (~1.5 Lbs) is very much weight, try strapping it to your wrists and ankles and doing some aerobics. Or run a 10K at full bore and then do so.

One of the things that make weights like this so effective is that they are on the extremities, which magnifies the effect. Whether they work or not to make a jumper more careful, I could not say. But on a tired horse, I am pretty sure they are not particularly nice. And I can see where taking them off right before a class would give you a couple more inches per fence. So, I am guessing that's why they are illegal.

Sometimes you don't need years of scientific study to realize something isn't right, or nice, or fair to the horses and devise a rule against it. It might not be a horrific practice, but that doesn't mean our elite horses should have to deal with it. Isn't it our (the humans) job to hold the line? If you think it would be creepy to see that done to 16 year old gymnasts, you ought to think it's creepy to do to 16 year old horses.

JMHO.

SCFarm

[takeone4theteam]

He didn't take the boots off, so if he wanted a couple more inches, leaving them on in both rounds wouldn't help. I think snoopy may have mentioned that they were not "weighted", but rather too heavy. I have seen this horse jump thousands of times and he is spectacular at home and at horse trials. This is a issue of not knowing the rules, plain and simple.

[snoopy]

He didn't take the boots off, so if he wanted a couple more inches, leaving them on in both rounds wouldn't help. I think snoopy may have mentioned that they were not "weighted", but rather too heavy. I have seen this horse jump thousands of times and he is spectacular at home and at horse trials. This is a issue of not knowing the rules, plain and simple.


Yes I think we much not lose site that they were NOT boots that can have weights added or subtracted from but rather the material/construction of the boots was over the new weight limit...And agreed those who manage the team certainly should be current on the rules even if the rider is not.

[Maryalden]

Why is Phillip's website claiming he FINISHED 12th? There's no mention of a DSQ! Is it still under investigation?

[Old Time Rider]

Eric Lamaze & Hickstead were disqualified in a class at Spruce Meadows this summer for the same reason. New rule is catching everyone. I bet our jumper riders are weighing all their horse's boots.

[katie16]

wow! go gina!!

and poor phillip :no: what an unusual thing to det DQ for

While I agree that that is a crappy thing to be DQ'd for, I cannot say that I have sympathy. IMO if you are competing at the OLYMPIC LEVEL, you should know all the rules inside and out. No excuses.

[eks]

I think that Wolf and CMP need to go....it is time for the US to clean house...

[JER]

It's time to get out the brooms.

If you look at the 'attrition list' that Badger so smartly compiled, you'll see a trend that's been happening since about '96 -- too many listed horses lost to injury.

Isn't it the coach's job to get the best team of horses and riders ready for the event?

Isn't it the manager's job to know the rules and make sure the team knows and follows the rules?

Epic fail, if you ask me.

[Speedy]

Isn't it the coach's job to get the best team of horses and riders ready for the event?

Isn't it the manager's job to know the rules and make sure the team knows and follows the rules?

That may be - but if we are all about rider responsibility these days - its the rider's responsibility to, well, actually BE ready for the event, and it's the rider's responsibility to know the rules, if not for the team, then for him or herself. This was completely embarassing for the US and the members of our sport and, in my view, as much about rider responsibility as about coaching and managing the team.

[Sannois]

Isn't this rule a bit ridiculous?? Am I to understand correctly that phillip or anyone comepeting at an international level can be Disqualified for using jumping boots that simply weigh too much?? There not even sneaky boots tha cant be weighted, just happen to be made too heavy?? Aren't there some more important things to worry about? I assume this is another FEI assanine rulew dreamed up by her highness and all of her other non horsey cronies. :no::eek:

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Her highness is non-horsey?
She competed at the Olympic games for goddsakes. She's ridden her whole life and she studied with some pretty damn good horsemen.

[snoopy]

I do believe those who are not familiar with the Princess should check into her background. She is rather horsey indeed. She may not share your vision or point of view but she is not as ignorant as some have made her out to be.

[omare]

sounds like the rule was dreamed up because there was abuse going on.....the boots used here were almost 2/3rds or almost twice the weight of what is allowed.

so any pictures of the overweight but allegedly not weighted boots? ;-}

[deltawave]

I'm stymied by the idea that weighted boots when worn in the actual competition could possibly be seen to offer any advantage. Schooling with weighted boots, yes, I can see how that could be a schooling trick (and I wouldn't say it's necessarily good or bad) but wearing them in the actual competition? On a tired horse who's going to showjump twice? If anything, it could be looked on as an unfair handicap. If a rider wanted to carry lead weights in his pockets, nobody would stop him. How can weighting a horse's boots while he is competing possibly give the animal an advantage? :confused:

[tangledweb]

Isn't this rule a bit ridiculous?? Am I to understand correctly that phillip or anyone comepeting at an international level can be Disqualified for using jumping boots that simply weigh too much?? There not even sneaky boots tha cant be weighted, just happen to be made too heavy??

Weighted/heavy boots have always been controversial. It is not like the rule popped up from nowhere.

"Just happen to be made to heavy" I have a fair bit of trouble believing. A normal plastic jump boot weighs about 200 grams. I don't believe an experienced competitor and horse trainer accidentally finds ones that weigh nearly 4 times that.

Nobody is saying "OMG, cheating, horse abuse, hang him, strip him of all previous medals", but he broke a black and white rule brought in at the recommendation of the veterinary committee and got caught so the penalty was applied.

[crittertwitter]

geezus peezus. and i thought our little technical woes were heart wrenching and expensive. sorry for philip and connaught!

[msghook]

This is all very well but:
The FEI Rules for Eventing, Art. 534, are prefaced by this statement: "The "Rules for Jumping Events" apply for Eventing Jumping except where otherwise provided in these rules. Any modification introduced by the FEI Jumping Committee during the year will be evaluated for inclusion in these Rules for Eventing from January 1st the following year."

The press release that the FEI sent out this spring announcing the boot weight rule was prefaced by a reference to the above article. That is why there had been no notification to Jim Wolf, Mark Phillips or anybody in High Performance regarding the rule change.

In other words, the rule was not in effect for Eventing Competitions run in 2008, including (in my opinion) the Olympics. The decision to sanction Phillip was itself a violation of FEI Rules. If the FEI made the decision to change their original directive in this matter, they completely failed in their duty to notify the National Federation.

Malcolm Hook

[annikak]

Well, Now, yet another...ahem...fish in the pot.

I assume this is not the end of it. Good then.

Rules are rules. Followed by all. If it was not in effect, then...go MH!

[Drvmb1ggl3]

How can weighting a horse's boots while he is competing possibly give the animal an advantage? :confused:

The same way a Tennessee Walker wears chains in the ring, it will make the horse kick their legs higher.
Put a light weigh on your wrist, and then lift your hand, in your effort to lift your hand you will more than likely overdo the initial lift to the point that once you get momentum you will lift your hand higher than you originally intended.

I doubt an extra 200 grams would be much of an extra advantage, but I suppose they have to draw the line somewhere.

[Janet]

Oh good.
I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought that bit was relevant, and I was hesitant to stick my neck out.

Any modification introduced by the FEI Jumping Committee during the year will be evaluated for inclusion in these Rules for Eventing from January 1st the following year.

When I saw that I thought "If it was passed in Feb 08, then it wouldn't go into effect until Jan 09 for Eventing" But when Jim Wolfe started doing the "mea culpa", I thought I must be missing something.

[tulkas]

So our esteemed FEI Officials, carrying on from their screw-up in the Eventing show jumping in Athens have managed to add another feather to their caps?
I realized, a while back, that the EI in FEI stands for European Idiots. I leave it up to your imagination to come with what the F stands for.

tulkas

[deltawave]

At some point, however, the effect of the weight becomes fatiguing, not beneficial. I'd think that would be a bigger disadvantage than any putative advantage of wearing weights while actually competing. Sure, wearing them in warmup makes some sense, but in the actual ring? I can't fathom it when the fatigue factor is added in.

[Jealoushe]

Maybe it was a safety precaution then...

[Ja Da Dee]

Oh My, I can't help but laugh after reading Malcolm's comments. Maybe they are punishing us for nicking PD from the Aussies. lol

[JER]

I'm curious how this rule could be in effect -- for 6 months -- unbeknownst to the riders/coaches/managers.

All of the above have attended/competed at FEI competitions since the rule was enacted in February.

Was this the first time the rule was enforced? Was this the first competition at which FEI officials were weighing boots?

If it wasn't the first time -- didn't anyone notice that FEI officials were weighing boots at other competitions?

And if if was the second round -- didn't anyone notice the FEI officials were weighing boots after the first round?

It's one thing to miss the memo on the rule (if there was a memo). It's another thing to miss the signs that a new rule is being enforced.

I'm not disagreeing with msghook. If what he is saying is true, the rule should not be in force this year. So I'm wondering why no one's pointed this out in the last six months.

These sort of screw-ups shouldn't happen at the Olympics.

[msghook]

Of course the rule was applied at Spruce Meadows, its a Jumper Show and this is a Jumper rule. That's my point, mid-year changes of the FEI Jumper Rules are to be evaluated by the FEI Eventing Committee and if approved, included in the jumping rules for Eventing on Jan. 1st of the following year. In this case, that would be 2009.

The rule was apparently applied at least one FEI Eventing competition this year (Jersey Fresh), but it should not have been under the restricitions that the FEI themselves had placed on the adoption of the rule for Eventing.

Malcolm

[snoopy]

Malcom

The FEI adopted a rule change with regards to the one fall you are eliminated rule...it was applied immediately not the next calendar year. If this was a Jumping rule applied to the Jumpers would that not apply to eventing jumping unless otherwise noted? I am a bit confused. Thanks.

[msghook]

The FEI EVENTING Committee adopted the 1 fall rule, and made it effective Aug. 1 2008. They also notified us of this. The FEI JUMPER Committee wrote and adopted the 500g boot rule and in notifying us, specified that it would take effect for Eventing following review by the Eventing Committee and then, not before Jan. 1, 2009. No special notification was received regarding early adoption of the boot rule, so to me that means that it should not yet be in effect.

Malcolm

[bambam]

If you are right Malcolm (and I never question yoru knowledge of the rules :)), then I would hope the US is protesting this

[snoopy]

The FEI EVENTING Committee adopted the 1 fall rule, and made it effective Aug. 1 2008. They also notified us of this. The FEI JUMPER Committee wrote and adopted the 500g boot rule and in notifying us, specified that it would take effect for Eventing following review by the Eventing Committee and then, not before Jan. 1, 2009. No special notification was received regarding early adoption of the boot rule, so to me that means that it should not yet be in effect.

Malcolm


Thanks. Then it would, indeed, seem that the FEI had got it wrong by implimenting a rule not yet approved by the FEI eventing committee. Looks like the CAS needs to be engaged.

[subk]

Malcolm thanks for showing up here and commenting--it is always appreciated!

And kodus to Janet as she did allude to this little problem earlier. This would be why I'd rather ask Janet than check the rules myself!

[BAC]

If you are right Malcolm (and I never question yoru knowledge of the rules :)), then I would hope the US is protesting this

And if they are protesting then perhaps that is why PD's website makes no mention of the disqualification. It is beginning to sound as if the rule does not go into effect until 2009. At least a medal is not invovled.

[Sannois]

I do believe those who are not familiar with the Princess should check into her background. She is rather horsey indeed. She may not share your vision or point of view but she is not as ignorant as some have made her out to be.

I am going by what I had read here several years ago when the whole issue of getting rid of the classic format was at hand.
I was under the impression that the FEI governing body was not in the thick of the horse world. There were such complaints made to that effect.
But maybe the guard has changed. And Maybe it had to do with the Dressage issues ie Rollkur etc. Forgive me I cant keep track. :) :no:
Sorry, For not doing my homework. :no:

[Sannois]

The FEI EVENTING Committee adopted the 1 fall rule, and made it effective Aug. 1 2008. They also notified us of this. The FEI JUMPER Committee wrote and adopted the 500g boot rule and in notifying us, specified that it would take effect for Eventing following review by the Eventing Committee and then, not before Jan. 1, 2009. No special notification was received regarding early adoption of the boot rule, so to me that means that it should not yet be in effect.

Malcolm

I think Malcomb has ended my confusion. IT seems their are seperate commitees for each discipline!
Thanks Malcomb, whoever you are! :)

[snoopy]

I am going by what I had read here several years ago when the whole issue of getting rid of the classic format was at hand.
I was under the impression that the FEI governing body was not in the thick of the horse world. There were such complaints made to that effect.
But maybe the guard has changed. And Maybe it had to do with the Dressage issues ie Rollkur etc. Forgive me I cant keep track. :) :no:
Sorry, For not doing my homework. :no:



It is no secret that The Princess was not a fan of the steeplechase. My own personal belief that this was the phase that broke down the horses. Whilst I am NOT for doing away with the whole long format, I do believe that it could have and should have been modified differently then what we are seeing today. But that is a different topic altogether. I was merely pointing out that The Princess does indeed have some knowledge of the sport.

[Janet]

Malcolm,

Someone earlier posted this link.
http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Eventing/News/Info_Eventing/Pages/WelfareRule.aspx
which further confuses the situation.

FEI > Disciplines > Eventing > News > Info Eventing
Welfare Rule 29/02/2008



The maximum weight allowed for a horse's boot, front or behind, is 500g. Failure to comply with this paragraph will incur disqualification. This is a Jumping Rule modification which applies to Eventing as per Art. 534 Rules for Jumping Events.

So DID the FEI Eventing committee decide to implement it early? or did someone at FEI post a misleading News item?

[snoopy]

Malcolm,

Someone earlier posted this link.
http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Eventing/News/Info_Eventing/Pages/WelfareRule.aspx
which further confuses the situation.


So DID the FEI Eventing committee decide to implement it early? or did someone at FEI post a misleading News item?



THIS ruling is EXACTLY what has me confussed.



Malcolm you have a PM regarding this issue.

[Sebastian]

The same way a Tennessee Walker wears chains in the ring, it will make the horse kick their legs higher.
Put a light weigh on your wrist, and then lift your hand, in your effort to lift your hand you will more than likely overdo the initial lift to the point that once you get momentum you will lift your hand higher than you originally intended.

I doubt an extra 200 grams would be much of an extra advantage, but I suppose they have to draw the line somewhere.

I disagree on the chains. The effect of the chains is not produced so much by the weight as the "what's that slapping around on my foot" factor. Therefore creating a "habit" for the horses to pick up their legs. (Yes, I even did saddlebreds and hackney's back in college. It's amazing what a poor desperate kid will do... :lol: :winkgrin: )

I'm with DW on this one. It's a stupid rule.
Seb :)

[Janet]

Boots were apparently also weighed at Maui Jim and Young RIders, according to other posts.

[JER]

It is no secret that The Princess was not a fan of the steeplechase.

It was the Infanta, not the Princess, that did away with steeplechase. She was very on-the-record about not liking it.

snoopy, I'm not saying you're confusing your royals, which I'm sure you'd never do. I just wanted to clarify that Princess Haya wasn't the head of the FEI when the format change happened.

[snoopy]

It was the Infanta, not the Princess, that did away with steeplechase. She was very on-the-record about not liking it.

snoopy, I'm not saying you're confusing your royals, which I'm sure you'd never do. I just wanted to clarify that Princess Haya wasn't the head of the FEI when the format change happened.


Yes you are correct...but then again Infanta is Princess in Spain. I just never clarified WHICH princess I was talking about.:lol:
After a while all of the Princess start to look the same, I can no longer keep track of the British Royals let alone the royal houses of Europe and the middle east.

[Sannois]

It was the Infanta, not the Princess, that did away with steeplechase. She was very on-the-record about not liking it.

snoopy, I'm not saying you're confusing your royals, which I'm sure you'd never do. I just wanted to clarify that Princess Haya wasn't the head of the FEI when the format change happened.

I was having trouble keeping them straight. Like I said I am not up on my FEI royality.
:eek: And yes thats the one I am remembering, that did away with out original format. I know theirs another one for Dressage as well. Lord how to keep it all straight.
I know ditch the FEI, Yes i know thats been discussed ad nauseum before. :sigh:

[JER]

After a while all of the Princess start to look the same, I can no longer keep track of the British Royals let alone the royal houses of Europe and the middle east.

snoops, did you let your subscription to Hello! lapse?

:lol:

[snoopy]

I was having trouble keeping them straight. Like I said I am not up on my FEI royality.
:eek: And yes thats the one I am remembering, that did away with out original format. I know theirs another one for Dressage as well. Lord how to keep it all straight.
I know ditch the FEI, Yes i know thats been discussed ad nauseum before. :sigh:


There is only one princess as president. Not one for dressage and one for eventing....in terms of the FEI anyway:lol:;) We are actually talking of two different Princesses

[snoopy]

snoops, did you let your subscription to Hello! lapse?

:lol:


Of course not!!! But I am afraid that Majesty has indeed lapsed.

[poltroon]

Boots were apparently also weighed at Maui Jim and Young RIders, according to other posts.

It said at Young Riders that they were checked for debris/pointy bits, not weighed.

[Janet]

It said at Young Riders that they were checked for debris/pointy bits, not weighed.Yes, but someone else said they were weighed, and someone else said they made a big deal of telling people that there was a 500g restriction.

[LLDM]

He didn't take the boots off, so if he wanted a couple more inches, leaving them on in both rounds wouldn't help. I think snoopy may have mentioned that they were not "weighted", but rather too heavy. I have seen this horse jump thousands of times and he is spectacular at home and at horse trials. This is a issue of not knowing the rules, plain and simple.

For crying out loud, I didn't say, nor imply, that PD did any of this on purpose. I was simply pointing out why there is validity in such a rule. I mean really, if PD wanted to actually cheat, I am sure he could do a much better job than that.

I'm stymied by the idea that weighted boots when worn in the actual competition could possibly be seen to offer any advantage. Schooling with weighted boots, yes, I can see how that could be a schooling trick (and I wouldn't say it's necessarily good or bad) but wearing them in the actual competition? On a tired horse who's going to showjump twice? If anything, it could be looked on as an unfair handicap. If a rider wanted to carry lead weights in his pockets, nobody would stop him. How can weighting a horse's boots while he is competing possibly give the animal an advantage? :confused:

I don't think this is about an advantage or disadvantage. It's about breaking a rule and getting DQed - even if it is on a technicality. More than one Gold Medal has been lost on a "non-advantageous" technicality. And most here said, "Rules is rules!!!! It's too darn bad."

Besides, how often do you think riders add equipment they haven't schooled in right before they go in the ring? Seems counter intuitive to me.

I knew many would be singing a different tune when the shoe was on the other foot. ;) Yes, it sucks for PD just as it sucked for everyone else who's gone through it. And if Malcolm is right, then it will get sorted out.

SCFarm

[snoopy]

For crying out loud, I didn't say, nor imply, that PD did any of this on purpose. I was simply pointing out why there is validity in such a rule. I mean really, if PD wanted to actually cheat, I am sure he could do a much better job than that.



I don't think this is about an advantage or disadvantage. It's about breaking a rule and getting DQed - even if it is on a technicality. More than one Gold Medal has been lost on a "non-advantageous" technicality. And most here said, "Rules is rules!!!! It's too darn bad."

Besides, how often do you think riders add equipment they haven't schooled in right before they go in the ring? Seems counter intuitive to me.

I knew many would be singing a different tune when the shoe was on the other foot. ;) Yes, it sucks for PD just as it sucked for everyone else who's gone through it. And if Malcolm is right, then it will get sorted out.

SCFarm

Hey Mom

Me thinks your knickers are in a twist.:lol:

[jumpjesterjump]

I have spent a lot of time the last few years in the FEI barns at various events in a couple of countries. The FEI stewards are always making their rounds through the barn from the first day to the last. They sneak a peak in your tack stall, your trunks, pet your horse on the nose. They are always present. The barns are closed from 11pm to 5 am and horses are to reamon in their stalls during those hours. Most stewards would not be happy to find you there during those hours.

i was grooming at Fair Hill one year and we were asked to leave for the night and were not let in until 5 or 530 the next morning. We did a lot of icing and walking, but the ULR i was with also let the horse just chill and hang out in his stall for a little while too.

[LLDM]

Hey Mom

Me thinks your knickers are in a twist.:lol:

Hi Son

My knickers aren't twisted, my ACL is in rehab. And I am feeling the pain of ankle weights!

But yes, I am still a bit bitter about the Bettina Hoy issue. You'd have thought she shot someone the way people went after her here in 2004. I feel bad for PD just as I felt bad for BH. And hypocrites annoy me.

SCFarm

[snoopy]

a response to a one of my posts was something like this

"quite frankly I would expect that from europeans" yada yada yada.

[CBoylen]

I'm stymied by the idea that weighted boots when worn in the actual competition could possibly be seen to offer any advantage. Schooling with weighted boots, yes
The logic of it is lost on me, but I do know that when weighted boots were popular for jumpers (the last few years they've basically been replaced by the Doda boot, and they were declining in popularity even before that came out) some people took them off after schooling, but many riders also used them in the show ring. I asked someone for an explanation once since I thought along the same lines as you (school in boots, remove boots, yay, lighter, higher hind end in ring), and they answered that the weight made the horse more conscious of its hind end and thus they put in more effort behind. However, the weighted boots I'm familiar with I don't consider heavy enough that the horse wouldn't quickly become used to them, negating any effect. Anyway, my point was, there are conflicting theories about them, and it probably comes down to their effect on the individual horse.
I will go back to my eventing board lurking now ;).

[flutie1]

Boots were apparently also weighed at Maui Jim and Young RIders, according to other posts.

Sorry if my post was misleading. Boots weren't weighed at Maui Jim. We learned about the practice from the FEI Steward at MJ.

[VColeman]

Correct me if I am wrong Flutie, but I believe boots were checked after SJ the last 2 years at Rolex as well. They were not weighed.

[tuppysmom]

Boots were checked at Rolex, but not wieghed. We stood our horse on the mat and removed the boots for inspection.

[Janet]

Sorry if my post was misleading. Boots weren't weighed at Maui Jim. We learned about the practice from the FEI Steward at MJ.
Thanks for the clarification.

[Ja Da Dee]

I knew many would be singing a different tune when the shoe was on the other foot. Yes, it sucks for PD just as it sucked for everyone else who's gone through it. And if Malcolm is right, then it will get sorted out.

What tune is being sung that disagrees with "it sucked"? I don't see anyone saying that IF the rule was unknowingly broken, then PD shouldn't be penalized. I hear discussion about why the rule was made, and if it really should be effective at this time.

[Sannois]

What tune is being sung that disagrees with "it sucked"? I don't see anyone saying that IF the rule was unknowingly broken, then PD shouldn't be penalized. I hear discussion about why the rule was made, and if it really should be effective at this time.

wonder the reasoning behind the rule.
For the Grand Prix Jumpers there have been incidents of objects in boots, etc. But to implement a weighted boot rule for eventers? Maybe I am just naive. I would like to think that It is the fault of our Team leaders to not have made this clear to riders. Its confusing. :confused:

[LLDM]

What tune is being sung that disagrees with "it sucked"? I don't see anyone saying that IF the rule was unknowingly broken, then PD shouldn't be penalized. I hear discussion about why the rule was made, and if it really should be effective at this time.

That would be the "poor PD" tune as opposed to the "Bettina Hoy should've known the rules no sympathy here when they strip her of a gold medal" tune. Or maybe I should say "tone".

In short, the general attitude of supporting "our" riders and actively not supporting or even actively ridiculing "other" riders on an issue that has legitimacy and no malice or unfair advantage.

Maybe I just identify more with eventers and horse people in general than I do with blind patriotism. Heck, I've already admitted I'm still bitter about it. What more do you want?

SCFarm

[flutie1]

Correct me if I am wrong Flutie, but I believe boots were checked after SJ the last 2 years at Rolex as well. They were not weighed.

Correct. Especially amusing when the first two randomly selected weren't wearing boots!
See you in a few!

flutie

[bambam]

That would be the "poor PD" tune as opposed to the "Bettina Hoy should've known the rules no sympathy here when they strip her of a gold medal" tune. Or maybe I should say "tone".
SCFarm
who said poor PD? sucks to be eliminated but you better know the rules (if they are indeed the rules). At most, people also blamed Jim Wolf and CMP for not making sure PD knew the rules, but no has said he should not be eliminated for breaking the rule if it was in fact a rule.
Bettina broke a very basic rule also and was properly eliminated (although she, unlike PD, did not say mea cupla, I made a mistake)

[bornfreenowexpensive]

That would be the "poor PD" tune as opposed to the "Bettina Hoy should've known the rules no sympathy here when they strip her of a gold medal" tune. Or maybe I should say "tone".

In short, the general attitude of supporting "our" riders and actively not supporting or even actively ridiculing "other" riders on an issue that has legitimacy and no malice or unfair advantage.

Maybe I just identify more with eventers and horse people in general than I do with blind patriotism. Heck, I've already admitted I'm still bitter about it. What more do you want?

SCFarm


There is also a HUGE difference in crossing the start line in SJ....a rule that has been in place for DECADES and drilled in to event riders from their start in eventing....and having boots that weigh too much for a NEWLY enacted rule that there now seems to be a legitimate dispute as to whether the damn rule is even in effect for eventing.

I feel bad for both....but in the first instance...it was just a plain brain fart on the part of the rider...and it really sucked for her.


Boots have been checked for a long time...but that was for foreign objects placed in the boots to make it sharper when the horse hit a rail....not for the weight of the boots.

[omare]

of course it could be argued that the latter infraction (PD's) could give a worse appearance than BH's as it comes under horse welfare rule.

It would be interesting to know what caused this rule change.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

of course it could be argued that the latter infraction (PD's) could give a worse appearance than BH's as it comes under horse welfare rule.

It would be interesting to know what caused this rule change.


Not really since that the boots were NOT weighted in the sense of enhancing performance. As mentioned before.....if one is using weighted boots to make a horse jump better....they take them OFF for the class and only use them in warm up.

He just is a big horse with big thick leather boots that weigh too much for this arbitrary rule.

[JER]

of course it could be argued that the latter infraction (PD's) could give a worse appearance than BH's as it comes under horse welfare rule.


I'd like to see some clarification of what kind of boots PD was using.

Last night, blackwly linked to a blog by a Canadian called Mike Gallagher (http://www.ewbnewswire.com/feed/wired/mikesblog/blog20080813.php) who is at the Olympics in some team-related capacity. He wrote the following:
The big story was the disqualification of Phillip Dutton for wearing weighted boots in the Individual Final. Under the individual results, they show him as disqualified, but under the team results, they are still using his score for the US Team result.

I noticed he says 'weighted boots' rather than 'over-weight boots' or 'boots that were too heavy.'

Anyone know for sure?

[cevent]

Check out Emma's blog:

http://www.chronicleemmaford.blogspot.com/

Here's a quote from it

"...unbeknown to me that they were considered overweight...."

I think that sums it up :)

[LLDM]

There is also a HUGE difference in crossing the start line in SJ....a rule that has been in place for DECADES and drilled in to event riders from their start in eventing....

Not to belabor the point (okay, maybe belaboring a bit) there WAS a discrepancy between the buzzer and the clock. I read somewhere that this happened to Gina too - and she made the right call because she thought of Bettina.

SCFarm

[omare]

whether "weighted" or "overweight", it falls under the horse welfare rule.

(For what it is worth seems many overseas are reporting it as weighted boots .......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/olympics/2008/08/dont_be_disappointed_with_brit.html

http://boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/thread.aspx?threadid=744089&boardsparam=PostID%3D21175138

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/olympics-2008/irish-news/oconnor-gives-ireland-boost-after--finishing-eighth-1453700.html

[JER]

A discussion on weighted boots, from the Horse & Hound forum in May 08: "weighted boots -- BE legal?" (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3092885/an/0/page/4)

The first reply:
I know an awful lot of eventers who use them, so I am guessing yes.....

[Sebastian]

Not to belabor the point (okay, maybe belaboring a bit) there WAS a discrepancy between the buzzer and the clock. I read somewhere that this happened to Gina too - and she made the right call because she thought of Bettina.

SCFarm

In an effort TO belabor the point... :winkgrin: FIRST RULE OF SHOWJUMPING...never never never never never never never never never never (whew...) never never never never never never never never never never (gasp... :eek: ) cross the start line unless you are about to jump the first jump. Buzzer or no buzzer...

And, as others pointed out, I WOULD have felt sorry for her if she'd just owned the mistake. It was the attempt to wiggle out of it, that annoyed me.

Seb :)

[VColeman]

Correct. Especially amusing when the first two randomly selected weren't wearing boots!
See you in a few!

flutie


Ha! I had forgotten about that. S. said the first rider looked at her like she was nuts when she told them they were selected.

Really looking forward to AEC's. Can't wait to see you!

[beeblebrox]

ALTHOUGH I guess we are not talking about weighted boots for PD just boots over weight. I weighed my cross country leather lined with wool tall hind boots wet after they went though the pond and they are scary close to over weight. Of course maybe the rule is just for show jumping and there would be no water ;-)

"Back dysfunction is an important reason for impaired performance in sport horses. Limb movements influence the movements of the back and factors affecting the limbs may therefore affect the movement of the back. The aim of the study was to investigate the influence of weighted boots on the fore- and hind limbs on the movement of the back. The back kinematics of eight horses was studied at the walk and trot on a treadmill. The ranges of movement (ROM) of the back were compared intra-individually, using Wilcoxon matched pairs test, when the horses moved with and without weighted boots on the fore- and hind limbs, respectively. Differences were considered significant at P<0.05. Weighted boots on the hind limbs increased the ROM for dorsoventral flexion and extension in the lumbar back at the walk and decreased the ROM for lateral bending at the thoracolumbar junction at the trot. Weighted boots on the forelimbs decreased the ROM for lateral bending at the withers at the trot. Knowledge of the effect of weighted boots on the back movement is useful in training and rehabilitation of sport horses. Weighted boots on the hind limbs at the walk may induce strengthening of the flexors of the lumbar back and increase the flexion–extension of the lumbar back under controlled conditions."

[Saskatoonian]

Thanks, Beeblebrox, for saving me the trouble of dunking my leather hind XC boots in a bucket and weighing them out of curiousity. ;) That yours are lined with wool and still only "scary close to over weight" after running through the pond certainly gives me pause. I'm reserving judgment on many levels, but whether they have weights added in pockets or are simply heavy by construction, those are some heavy boots, and open front on top of it? Has anyone seen pictures? I'm just curious.

[LLDM]

"Back dysfunction is an important reason for impaired performance in sport horses. Limb movements influence the movements of the back and factors affecting the limbs may therefore affect the movement of the back. The aim of the study was to investigate the influence of weighted boots on the fore- and hind limbs on the movement of the back. The back kinematics of eight horses was studied at the walk and trot on a treadmill. The ranges of movement (ROM) of the back were compared intra-individually, using Wilcoxon matched pairs test, when the horses moved with and without weighted boots on the fore- and hind limbs, respectively. Differences were considered significant at P<0.05. Weighted boots on the hind limbs increased the ROM for dorsoventral flexion and extension in the lumbar back at the walk and decreased the ROM for lateral bending at the thoracolumbar junction at the trot. Weighted boots on the forelimbs decreased the ROM for lateral bending at the withers at the trot. Knowledge of the effect of weighted boots on the back movement is useful in training and rehabilitation of sport horses. Weighted boots on the hind limbs at the walk may induce strengthening of the flexors of the lumbar back and increase the flexion–extension of the lumbar back under controlled conditions."

Thanks so much for finding that research! It saves me from telling my PT Doc what to do with his ankle weights! :winkgrin:

Again, for those of you who think it makes no difference, strap on a pair. It makes a difference. Whether or how that difference has an impact, I couldn't say. But it isn't nothing. I'm just sayin'

SCFarm

[closetoperfectionfarm]

[QUOTE=Janet;3436810]Found it. It isn't in the General Rules, it is in the Show Jumping rules (and the Eventing rules reference the Show Jumping Rules)


Can anyone clarify if the 500gram rule is per boot or total for a pair?

[flutie1]

Per boot.