Dangerous Riding--WAY under time on XC?

[Mary in Area 1]

Why would a rider, assuming he/she is in control, come in a full 50 seconds under optimum time at Prelim? Maybe because he/she is planning to move up next week? OK, that's a POSSIBLE (unlikely in this case)scenario. But then...

Why would a rider, again experienced and under control, come in over 20 seconds (might have been more, but I didn't know the exact optimum time) at Advanced? What could POSSIBLY be the motivation? What does it prove? Doesn't it unnecessarily USE UP the horse, risk a fall, show a lack of understanding of the proper pace?

What is the point of speed faults if they are SO far from the optimum time? Isn't excessive speed one of the factors we are always talking about in relation to horse or rider injuries and fatalities? Why don't we close the window around Optimum time, have speed faults come into play sooner, and not REWARD excessive speed?

Maybe that would be a way to objectively identify those riders who are potentially pushing the limits, not appropriately balancing their horses, not REALLY in control, etc.

A group of us talked a LOT about this over the weekend and found it a very troubling trend. Your thoughts?

[frugalannie]

Very thoughtful post, Mary.

I can't speak to the upper levels having only done prelim for a few seasons back a few years ago.

At prelim and at the lower levels, the time constraints can be difficult because of a horse's preferred way of going. I've had some that were in better balance (because they weren't fighting so much, probably) with a little more pace then the lowest levels allow.

But I have to agree that at the highest levels, 20 seconds under is pretty amazing!

[Mary in Area 1]

All other top riders with clear rounds were just under the optimum time, so it was NOT wheeled THAT generously.

[Fergs]

Not to hijack, but I have a similar question along these lines. Perhaps one of the "rules mavens" can help.

There are now penalties for excessive speed, but is there currently a designation in the records as such? Or are excessive speed penalties lumped in with penalties for going over the optimum time?

It seems that in this era of safety awareness it would be helpful to have a record of this, because I think (and I could be wrong) right now they're all just lumped together as time penalties.

[inquisitive]

Why would a rider, assuming he/she is in control, come in a full 50 seconds under optimum time at Prelim? Maybe because he/she is planning to move up next week? OK, that's a POSSIBLE (unlikely in this case)scenario.

I don't know if this is where you wanted the discussion to go but I was worried about this after recent talk of harsher DR penalties at several local events. Regardless of the particular situations you mentioned, I've often heard that it's a good idea to try your last N or so at T pace before you move up, then don't worry about your first T time, etc.

If we want an option like this to be available, how can a rider do this without accumulating unnecessary DR penalties? Mention it to the TD beforehand? Of course, this assumes everything is under control and not actually dangerous...

Sorry if this is off the direction you wanted to go...

[inquisitive]

Not to hijack, but I have a similar question along these lines. Perhaps one of the "rules mavens" can help.

There are now penalties for excessive speed, but is there currently a designation in the records as such? Or are excessive speed penalties lumped in with penalties for going over the optimum time?

It seems that in this era of safety awareness it would be helpful to have a record of this, because I think (and I could be wrong) right now they're all just lumped together as time penalties.

No, I believe any time penalties (over or under) are in the same category. That's how I've seen it in the results, but maybe USEA gets something official with more columns...

By "excessive speed" do you mean DR, or just going under the optimum time?

[subk]

Why would a rider, assuming he/she is in control, come in a full 50 seconds under optimum time at Prelim? Maybe because he/she is planning to move up next week? OK, that's a POSSIBLE (unlikely in this case)scenario. But then...
Nope that excuse doesn't work here.

Just for the math exercise I used the numbers from Five Points H.T. (first one I found in the Omnibus that was running up to A)

Prelm. is 520 mpm over 3200 m, that's an optimum time of 6 min 9 secs. If you ran it at Int. speed of 550 mpm that would be an optimum 5 min 50 secs. So over the same course Int. is only 19 seconds faster than Prelm. Even Adv. speed would only be 33 seconds faster. So 50 seconds under "because you practicing moving up" doesn't pass the smell test.

[scubed]

If people saw this rider going and it seemed they were safe and in control, don't forget the possibility of a timing error that just wasn't corrected because there aren't speed faults at Preliminary

[bambam]

Inquisitive- I would be very surprised if a rider who was otherwise balanced and in control got DR for simply going too fast. Those I have seen get DR for speed would have been pulled regardless of the level because they were simply dangerous, whether it was because of lack of balance or control or ???
That being said, sure mention it to the TD beforehand if you are worried

[RayRay]

On the same topic of speed faults, if the reason for having a minimum time for lower levels is for safety reasons why is it OK to circle on course (anywhere except between the last fence and the finish line or in front of a jump)? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having the riders going at an appropriate speed for the level?

Was just wondering....

[Fergs]

No, I believe any time penalties (over or under) are in the same category. That's how I've seen it in the results, but maybe USEA gets something official with more columns...

By "excessive speed" do you mean DR, or just going under the optimum time?

That is too bad that there isn't currently a way to designate. I will probably get flamed for saying this, but if you look at Ashker's record she consistently has had time penalties in the past, and I assume (but can't say for sure the way the records are displayed) that most were from coming too far under the optimum time.

The OP makes a good point that very often excessive speed is a harbinger of dangerous riding and that closing the window around the optimum time might help.

[Carol Ames]

I've had much the same thought:sadsmile: It encourages rides, like the Chinese rider:eek: At Athens someone came through the finish, and said,'it's a racetrack out there:eek:! "so,though there are no longer bonus points for speed,the fact that time penalties are playing a :sadsmile:major part, encourages extra speed; better to be 'up on the clock, ie., ahead than behind,or even :mad:right on

'

d a rider, assuming he/she is in control, come in a full 50 seconds under optimum time at Prelim? Maybe because he/she is planning to move up next week? OK, that's a POSSIBLE (unlikely in this case)scenario. But then...

Why would a rider, again experienced and under control, come in over 20 seconds (might have been more, but I didn't know the exact optimum time) at Advanced? What could POSSIBLY be the motivation? What does it prove? Doesn't it unnecessarily USE UP the horse, risk a fall, show a lack of understanding of the proper pace?

What is the point of speed faults if they are SO far from the optimum time? Isn't excessive speed one of the factors we are always talking about in relation to horse or rider injuries and fatalities? Why don't we close the window around Optimum time, have speed faults come into play sooner, and not REWARD excessive speed?

Maybe that would be a way to objectively identify those riders who are potentially pushing the limits, not appropriately balancing their horses, not REALLY in control, etc.

A group of us talked a LOT about this over the weekend and found it a very troubling trend. Your thoughts? __________________
\"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed.\"--Pogo
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[Carol Ames]

ope that excuse doesn't work here.

Just for the math exercise I used the numbers from Five Points H.T. (first one I found in the Omnibus that was running up to A)

Prelm. is 520 mpm over 3200 m, that's an optimum time of 6 min 9 secs. If you ran it at Int. speed of 550 mpm that would be an optimum 5 min 50 secs. So over the same course Int. is only 19 seconds faster than Prelm. Even Adv. speed would only be 33 seconds faster. So 50 seconds under "because you practicing moving up" doesn't pass the smell test. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3433380)

[subk]

I will add that one of the most beautiful rounds I've ever seen at Rolex was 20-30 seconds under. Will F. on Antigua (maybe their first one?) on a hardish ground nailed every jump and was perfectly balanced the whole course. I also know he got to have a chat with the Ground Jury about it, too!

[Janet]

That is too bad that there isn't currently a way to designate. I will probably get flamed for saying this, but if you look at Ashker's record she consistently has had time penalties in the past, and I assume (but can't say for sure the way the records are displayed) that most were from coming too far under the optimum time. I doubt it. You only get "speed faults" at Training and below. There are no "speed faults" at Prelim and above. So if she has time penalties at Prelim and above, they are for going too slowly,

[4Martini]

On the same topic of speed faults, if the reason for having a minimum time for lower levels is for safety reasons why is it OK to circle on course (anywhere except between the last fence and the finish line or in front of a jump)? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having the riders going at an appropriate speed for the level?

Was just wondering....


But, that's not the only reason people circle on course. I would guess a lot more people circle to refocus, or get a better approach than to use up time. I would rather have the option to refocus my horse than fly at a jump on a half paying attention horse b/c circles become illegal... I think that making circles illegal would backfire in terms of overall safer riding.

[Sightunseen]

I think it is a hard call. I KNOW on my 17 hand gelding that Novice speed is going to be an issue. Not because he will be out of control, but just cantering along he has an east 14' stride. So yes, I will probably add some circles and some trot canter transitions near the end of my course, does that mean the rest of the course was dangerous? NO it means I have a big horse and Novice speed is slow. Also I had a little mare who I took out to Rebecca, needless to say not very successfully, and we had a stop in every minute or our Training Level Course. But we hit ALL of our minute markers, not because we were out of control, but we galloped between our fences and then made a balancing half-halt. I think speed kills, but it depends on the application of the speed.

[Mary in Area 1]

I don't think the problem is that bad at the lower levels. Obviously, some horses can be ridden at a faster pace at Novice and still be safe.

HOWEVER, I think we should establish speed faults at the upper levels, AND make some real clear guidelines on how to wheel a course with consistancy. That way, people will not be able to move up 20 places by riding at a dead gallop around XC. That is not what our sport should reward with ribbons and trophies!

[Firefox]

If people saw this rider going and it seemed they were safe and in control, don't forget the possibility of a timing error that just wasn't corrected because there aren't speed faults at Preliminary

I was orginally scored for doing a prelim at MDHT in 3:19 when opt time was 5:09 and I thought I had done it in 5:19, it was a scoring error and I brought it to thier attention cause I didnt think anyone would have beilieved it any way :)


We only have speed faults at training and below, maybe we should look at it for the other levels too????

[Bobthehorse]

I dont know about you guys, but here in Canada, you get double the penalties for going under time than over time. Thats only up to Training I believe though (that could have changed, not sure. And if not, it should change to include all levels). Also penalized for willful delay, ie circling or trotting unnecessarily (though its usually only enforced between the last jump and the finish line). Thats supposed to keep the yahoos from racing around the course, then using up time at the end so as not to get penalized.


Either way, I wear a watch, I dont use my horse up if I dont need to.

[quietann]

Like Sightunseen, I have a fast one :) I've never evented her, and am now thinking I might not ever do so, just because she's so freakin' fast. Her first unrecognized Novice, with a fearless teen up, she did at Training speed and was wanting to go out and do it all over again. *Not* out of control, just speedy. She's a little Morgan hotshot... wasn't there an article last spring in one of the eventing magazines about an older gentleman who'd completed over 100 horse trials on his now-elderly Morgan gelding, and been forced to move up to Training because the horse just didn't do Novice speed?

But that raises the question: how does a TD tell "fast" from "dangerous riding"? I guess the speed penalties are there for a good reason.

[Macmalc]

You were not the only one astounded by the one rider at Preliminary. I calculated her speed as 627 meters/min over the course. No one else in any Preliminary division even came close. Advanced is 570 meter/minute. Unfortunately, I did not see her ride but if the timer is correct it must have been a hair raiser.

Similarly, at GHF II in June I was comparing course speeds between the Professional riders in the open divisions at Preliminary with the JYOP division. Nobody made the optimum time, however almost half of the JYOP riders were much, much faster than the pros. I saw some that looked pretty scary on course.

This Spring everyone was talking rider responsibility and safety big time. We saw one pulled off the X-country at the CCI* in Virginia. GHF II held a safety meeting prior to the X-country and even printed Danny Warrington's Essay regarding Laine Ashker's accident at Rolex in their program. Yet, from my perspective on course enforcement seems lax.

Worse, fast riders wins ribbons and ride victory gallops. Responsible/in control riders often go home empty handed.

[quietann]

Similarly, at GHF II in June I was comparing course speeds between the Professional riders in the open divisions at Preliminary with the JYOP division. Nobody made the optimum time, however almost half of the JYOP riders were much, much faster than the pros. I saw some that looked pretty scary on course.


Hm. I went to look at the GHII results for Prelim, and saw no one with speed penalties at all. Yes, the JYOP had on average fewer time penalties but only by a few seconds???

But I was not there actually watching, so what do I know? I did see GHI and that looked pretty sane for the most part -- but the courses are easier.

[Mary in Area 1]

There are no speed penalties at Prelim. That's my point. This rider is winning a lot of events by going at a racing gallop around XC. She is NOT totally under control, as clearly this is a waste of her horse (to go ABOVE Advanced speed) and she has plenty of rails in SJ due to lack of balance.

Eventually she'll flip the horse over, and then everyone will say "Wow, why didn't anyone say something?"

Well, I am.

[Janet]

Hm. I went to look at the GHII results for Prelim, and saw no one with speed penalties at all. Yes, the JYOP had on average fewer time penalties but only by a few seconds???
There are NO SPEED PENALTIES at Prelim.

[quietann]

OK I am just confused because there is a column for speed penalties in all the results tables.

[blackwly]

Do you guys remember? There WERE speed faults at prelim and intermediate a few years ago. I have to say, it was a royal pain. The window at intermediate was only 15 seconds. For example, the optimum time might be 6:05 and thus the speed fault time was 5:50. I wound up perpetually staring at my watch over the last fence and through the finish flags. Not exactly all that safe.

I think that there are some rider/horse combinations, on some days, that may have quite fast rounds that are safe. I know that I, myself, tend to be a quick rider. Sure, I've had time penalities plenty of times. But I've also finished well under the time on occasion - ALWAYS when my quick horse was totally on and rideable. For example: long-format CCI* on my horse Harry. My 5th 3day, Harry's first. Harry had already gone intermediate with me several times. We were in 1st after dressage and thus I went out there riding fairly aggressively to make the time. Harry was totally "on" and didn't put a foot wrong. We went all the direct routes. The course was about 9:30 long...by the 8 minute marker I was actually a minute up on the time. Yes, that is fast! I took the long route on the last combo and laid off the gas, but finished about 45 seconds fast. You could look at that and say I was dangerous (or stupid) but the horse had a quiet night in his stall, jogged up beautifully and jumped clean in SJ to win the event. So on that day, on that course, with that level of condition, we were well within our capabilities.

My point is that you really can't tell how dangerously someone is riding from the time on the scorecard. You have to look at rider experience, horse experience, horse "type", rideability, footing/weather, condition, course design, options taken, etc, etc. That is why I prefer the subjective "dangerous riding" rule to objective but rigid optimum time windows.