Kim and Bonnie should be over there....

[Jagged]

Why were they not selected!?!?!?!!?!!?! :no:

I guess it's easy to say that after a few (a many) screw ups from team USA over there yesterday (er, today--- time change is challenging.) But really... what a shame.

[myboyludy]

bonnie was over there but her horse was injured about 2 weeks ago so she came home

[TheHunterKid90]

Kim needed to be over there...I would have picked her over Amy any day of the week.

[findeight]

Oh come on...whoever may have gone instead may have come off as well when the horse slipped and went down.

Lets be fair here. At least be aware one named WAS selected but has nothing to ride. Sportsmanship anyone?

They all came back uninjured and they certainly are not the only team having alot of bad luck.

[purplnurpl]

screw that.

Corinne should have been over there.
sucks.

that's what you get when you leave the best at home.

[snoopy]

screw that.

Corinne should have been over there.
sucks.

that's what you get when you leave the best at home.



Corinne and I just talked about that this morning.

[purplnurpl]

Corinne and I just talked about that this morning.

Karma's a bitch eh, CMP?

[TripleC]

Bonnie wanted to be there but (see above) Merloch was injured in Quarantine. Kim doesn't have the horse this year (remember it takes horse AND rider) but should be @ WEG and London. Heidi should have been there too, but Spy also injured. Now, having said all that, the riders / horse combo's we DID have are some of the best, just very bad luck for 3 of the 5. Horses and riders both looked very tired. Lets give them all a Hero's welcome when they come home. They went, they put their horses on the line and they tried their damndest. It just wasn't our turn, this time.

[TripleC]

Why were they not selected!?!?!?!!?!!?! :no:

I guess it's easy to say that after a few (a many) screw ups from team USA over there yesterday (er, today--- time change is challenging.) But really... what a shame.

YIKES. This is a little mean....ouch.

[wanderlust]

So, my biggest critique with CMP's program has been lack of depth (rather, no depth), particularly in world-class horses, in the recent years. There are a few at the tip top, but no others really primed to step up. Pretty disappointing, especially considering how the Europeans are uber-competitive even without their top teams (i.e. Zara, Bettina, etc).

[Sannois]

Karma's a bitch eh, CMP?

So basically this is all CMP's fault. :eek:
I dont get it. Maybe thats the point. Neither does anyone else! :no:

[LisaB]

What a sec. Do you have a crystal ball? I think not.
Look at the French. They were in a better position than us in the beginning of all this.
And how many of us were perplexed that Gina went with such a big heavy horse. And she's the only one in medal contention.
Yeah, right. It's horses folks. Give me a break.

[purplnurpl]

So basically this is all CMP's fault. :eek:
I dont get it. Maybe thats the point. Neither does anyone else! :no:

na, but he's a good outlet. Thought maybe I'd try out those three initials for once too.
lol.
we all get at least one go at it, right? : P

(Hey Reed, notice which smiley I used?)
braaahahahahaaaaa!!!!

[TexasTB]

So, my biggest critique with CMP's program has been lack of depth (rather, no depth), particularly in world-class horses, in the recent years. There are a few at the tip top, but no others really primed to step up. Pretty disappointing, especially considering how the Europeans are uber-competitive even without their top teams (i.e. Zara, Bettina, etc).

THANK YOU.
It seems that he hasn't spent the time building team riders from the ground up, and is content to sit on the select few that are placed on the team year after year. This is not a problem if they are truly the best in the nation that year, however this year I do not think that was the case. We had riders left off of the team whose results this year were much better than some of those who did travel to HK. Jennifer Wooten anybody? or how about Corrine Ashton?
And I know some of you say that Kim's horse is too inexperienced, but then how do you explain Mandiba? Tipperary Liadhnan not only completed a 4*, but placed in the top 5 to boot. And still didn't make even the alternate list? Yet a horse with absolutely no 4* experience gets sent instead?

And I am in no way meaning this as an attack on our riders or horses, I think Karen is an excellent rider and Mandiba is certainly a star for the future. But IMHO better decisions could have been made in regard to forming a team for this Olympics, an opinion I had even before the disappointing rides yesterday.

[purplnurpl]

And lets not forget the intensity of the training sessions. I do not know first hand but have been told they are taken a little too far.

Horses and riders preform well when they've been rested.

[KSevnter]

Picking the team has always had political aspects to it, even pre-CMP from what I can understand from team riders in the 80's early 90's.

It is a crapshoot as to whether an experienced rider/inexperienced horse or more experienced horse/less experienced rider is better. I did look at some of the records of those others mentioned on this thread out of curiousity. Jennifer W. has jumped around clean at 2 different 4stars (Rolex and Germany), Kim's horse is new to the 4star level but jumped clean at Rolex. Corrine hasn't jumped clean at a full 3-day since Rolex in 2005, so maybe that explains why she wasn't in contention?

I guess my point is while some of it is political, the rest is just an educated guess by people who are observing riders and looking at records, and really they are human too.

[pwynnnorman]

What I simply don't understand is why it can't be more transparent. I believe the current way of selecting horses is not good for the sport. Didn't show jumping go with (or try) an objective (numeric) system combined with two subjective spots. I'm not saying that's the answer but I do firmly think that allowing the fans to understand the process--what is considered, which horses are making the grade, which aren't, which need to show they can do this or that, who is on the bubble for soundness reasons (wishful thinking there, for sure) and, most importantly, what the reasoning was for the final decisions--I think all of that would raise both interest and faith in the process and those that dictate it.

In sum, it'd be FUN (rather than frustrating) to follow--if only one could understand it. IMO, not understanding is unhealthy for the sport because it raises the inevitable questions of politics and even elitism. I'm sure there are some excellent reasons for the decisions made, but why not praise the riders who make it for the reasons they did and allow others who aspire to do the same understand how they might (in a concrete way, that is) get there themselves some day. And it wouldn't have to be FULL disclosure because I do understand the investment in horses. Disclosing soundness issues would never happen, of course, but it's the rationales behind the decisions which I think would really help the public appreciate the selectors' burdens instead of cast doubt on them.

For example, last year and this year, clearly, one thing clearly prioritized was international (rider) experience and successful four-star (horse) experience. Those who had both were solidly on board, more or less. Would acknowledging that have discouraged Clark or Buck or Jennifer (I can't quite recall her international experience, so that might not fit)? I don't see why it would have since it still comes down to soundness in the end. Prioritizing this or that trait doesn't exclude other successes--especially given the inevitable whittling down of the list due to soundness problems.

Oh, I should jsut shut up. It's the same PR stuff we always end up bemoaning. Damn great sport. Deserves better handling.

[LisaB]

Hmmm, interesting Wynn.
Okay, in all major sports in the US, the big names have EVERYTHING disclosed. Their injuries, habits, etc. Of course they have a ton of money to keep them out of the bad press and jail but all those armchair quarterbacks know every strength and weakness of those players. Including nascar which has a huge fan base.
And in racing, don't we know the injuries of the horses? Oh, so-and-so is out of this race because of a stone bruise. Or is out completely and at stud because of a tendon tear.
So, why in the hell don't we know about the strengths and weaknesses of our riders and horses? What's the huge deal? If you want to remain an enigma to modern sports, then so be it. But that doesn't seem to be what we want. This includes dr, and show jumping. Actually, show jumpers seem to be much more open about boo boos and such.
I would think we would gain much more popularity if we disclosed more about the horses and riders. We can have the badass rider who has a following or some people can't stand that person (John McEnroe type) or a do-gooder Dorothy Hammil.
I think that's why Teddy had such a following. There was no masking his personality or demeanor. We all couldn't help but fall in love with the cheeky little bugger.

[pwynnnorman]

And in racing, don't we know the injuries of the horses? Oh, so-and-so is out of this race because of a stone bruise. Or is out completely and at stud because of a tendon tear.



I was thinking of bringing up racing, but race horses don't get sold for millions to lesser countries to qualify on or retire to become pricey packers. I've mentioned this idea to others more deeply involved than I and the reactions have always been totally aghast at the thought. I think we who only dabble at it underestimate just how significant soundness issues are to folks who've "invested" in the upper levels. I wish the sport either weren't so hard on horses or that when they break, they can just be rested, not patched up (which I think is a major reason for the sensitivity amongst their people).


I think that's why Teddy had such a following. There was no masking his personality or demeanor. We all couldn't help but fall in love with the cheeky little bugger.


Well, I can't help but wonder if the cheeky little bugger would have been one of those rocketing out of the ring at the sight of that camera at C, instead of taking the deep breath Dibber did to hang in there. The horses at the top this time around weren't exactly the cheekier ones, were they? Fox-Pitt chose Parkmore Ed over Tamarillo for a reason, me thinks.

[Platinum Equestrian]

I don't remember Amy being so heavy previously... it could be I wasn't paying attention, or has she gained weight? I didn't think she looked that secure in the saddle prior to her fall.

I was so bummed Becky had problems - I thought for sure they would go clean. I guess I was under the impression that Comet was super brave. The first refusal, which was shown live, looked like a miscommunication when she was setting him up for the next fence. What happened after that in regard to fence issues?

[poltroon]

I was so bummed Becky had problems - I thought for sure they would go clean. I guess I was under the impression that Comet was super brave. The first refusal, which was shown live, looked like a miscommunication when she was setting him up for the next fence. What happened after that in regard to fence issues?

It was just a simple mistake, two simple mistakes. Comet was plenty brave but they had a miscommunication. The second "refusal" was because she crossed her line when she re-presented to that fence.

He was a good boy, they just got a little unlucky proving Mike Etherington-Smith's prediction that one of the leaders would have a runout there.

[Dressage62]

From ChronofHorse.com FREE eventing coverage:
"Holder said she waited too long to set up for the angled dragons at fence 21AB, where Courageous Comet ended up running by the first one. She then crossed her path en route to the second one and received another 40 penalties for a technical refusal. “I misjudged the hill and how long it would take to get him on his feet,” she said. “By the end I had taken one too many tugs. He was there for me the whole way; it was my fault. I wish I could have that moment back.”

[LisaB]

Platinum, if you've ever seen Comet in person on x-c, you would never think that. He's the quintessential eventer.
The beauty of x-c is that it's not only about bravery, it's about the rider thinking and setting the horse up properly. They are the brains behind the operation. Oops, poor Becky! How many of us can sympathize?

[retreadeventer]

What I simply don't understand is why it can't be more transparent. I believe the current way of selecting horses is not good for the sport. Didn't show jumping go with (or try) an objective (numeric) system combined with two subjective spots. ...... I'm sure there are some excellent reasons for the decisions made, but why not praise the riders who make it for the reasons they did and allow others who aspire to do the same understand how they might (in a concrete way, that is) get there themselves some day. And it wouldn't have to be FULL disclosure because I do understand the investment in horses. Disclosing soundness issues would never happen, of course, but it's the rationales behind the decisions which I think would really help the public appreciate the selectors' burdens instead of cast doubt on them.

For example, last year and this year, clearly, one thing clearly prioritized was international (rider) experience and successful four-star (horse) experience. Those who had both were solidly on board, more or less........... Damn great sport. Deserves better handling.

Darn good last sentence! AGREED!
Here's my take.
I think we need to help CMP out a little. I think he needs to be free to determine more international level stuff and keep up with the Jones's so to speak as coach; and we need two sub-coaches. One would be the most experienced barn manager/trainer/vet who has a clear understanding of demands on the horses and how to manage same to nuture to international level - re, knows how to keep a horse sound. The other coach will be our developing rider coach who takes the green international riders with promising horses on the road, or assists them in preparing for breaking into international competition, our "developing rider coach" currently is Kim Severson.
As far as a soundness coach I would prefer it not be a vet. I think it needs to be a former rider who knows something about conditioning and has been to the well a few times with a horse and knows what we need. (Experience). No offense but vets are not trainers.

Our international pool is thin and we need to figure out what can make that change. We need to send 10 American entries to Burghley and Badminton every year. We need to send five young riders to Europe every spring and fall for the three star seasons. We need to bring them home, experienced and stronger, and MOUNT them on sound animals they have learned how to keep sound.

Please don't tell me that takes money. I think the money is there. I think it takes organization and effort first from ..... drum roll please...... ASSOCIATION LEADERSHIP....hear that giant sucking sound? It's the vacuum....

[poltroon]

Our international pool is thin and we need to figure out what can make that change. We need to send 10 American entries to Burghley and Badminton every year. We need to send five young riders to Europe every spring and fall for the three star seasons. We need to bring them home, experienced and stronger, and MOUNT them on sound animals they have learned how to keep sound.

Please don't tell me that takes money. I think the money is there. I think it takes organization and effort first from ..... drum roll please...... ASSOCIATION LEADERSHIP....hear that giant sucking sound? It's the vacuum....

I will tell you it takes money. We have plenty of riders good enough to attempt Badminton, but someone has to pay for the plane ticket. Why do that when they can jump around at Kentucky, itself an expensive endeavor? But there's a lot to be learned, it seems, from riding around in foreign countries, and I think that is the seasoning our up and coming riders really need.

Watch Inside Eventing and see those talented kids riding with the O'Connors who are barely covering the expenses for one not-quite-good-enough horse. That's par for the course.

The program was probably strongest in 2000 - and what we had then wasn't necessarily better coaching or better riding, but we were lucky enough to have top riders who were able to buy and campaign some very nice horses.

That said, I think the program is pretty strong. We went through about something like 8 combinations on our long list that were no longer available, and we still fielded a very credible team that had a little bad luck.

[TripleC]

Darn good last sentence! AGREED!
Here's my take.
I think we need to help CMP out a little. I think he needs to be free to determine more international level stuff and keep up with the Jones's so to speak as coach; and we need two sub-coaches. One would be the most experienced barn manager/trainer/vet who has a clear understanding of demands on the horses and how to manage same to nuture to international level - re, knows how to keep a horse sound. The other coach will be our developing rider coach who takes the green international riders with promising horses on the road, or assists them in preparing for breaking into international competition, our "developing rider coach" currently is Kim Severson.
As far as a soundness coach I would prefer it not be a vet. I think it needs to be a former rider who knows something about conditioning and has been to the well a few times with a horse and knows what we need. (Experience). No offense but vets are not trainers.

Our international pool is thin and we need to figure out what can make that change. We need to send 10 American entries to Burghley and Badminton every year. We need to send five young riders to Europe every spring and fall for the three star seasons. We need to bring them home, experienced and stronger, and MOUNT them on sound animals they have learned how to keep sound.

Please don't tell me that takes money. I think the money is there. I think it takes organization and effort first from ..... drum roll please...... ASSOCIATION LEADERSHIP....hear that giant sucking sound? It's the vacuum....

Sorry - but it DOES take money and the money IS NOT there....I promise you:-) But you can get started now, save your pennies and pony up the cost to send even ONE rider to what you suggest. Oh, and don't forget - you have to buy the horses too (it takes more than one, ask Karen and Phillip)

[subk]

Please don't tell me that takes money. I think the money is there. I think it takes organization and effort first from ..... drum roll please...... ASSOCIATION LEADERSHIP....hear that giant sucking sound? It's the vacuum....
Well if you think there is a vacuum why don't you jump in there and get all the money just lying out there waiting to be picked up?

Jeez people. If Becky hadn't missed a tug we'd be sitting in 3rd contemplating why our dressage isn't better and b$it#hing about those Germans who wanted their WBs to be more competitive so they screwed up the long format. We lost our three best horses this year, The Pony, Winsome Adante and Northern Spy. It bites, but that's the sport.

All this gnashing of teeth because someone missed a tug! It's really not all so bad out there...well, except for the short format...

[GotSpots]

I will tell you it takes money. We have plenty of riders good enough to attempt Badminton, but someone has to pay for the plane ticket. Why do that when they can jump around at Kentucky, itself an expensive endeavor? But there's a lot to be learned, it seems, from riding around in foreign countries, and I think that is the seasoning our up and coming riders really need. Spot on. Being involved in trying to help send a rider to England for a fall three day, I can tell you it is not cheap. Flying the horse alone is very, very expensive; add in quarantine costs, internal shipping within England, rider's plane ticket, accomodations, etc., and you're looking at a pile of resources. Add in that you've got to keep the horses at home going while you're gone, and that pile just grows. I've heard quoted that for what it costs to do one three day in Europe, you could campaign, vet, train, and board an Advanced horse in the United States for a year - in essence, trying to get that international experience almost doubles your per-horse budget annually. It's not a cheap process by any means, and tons of credit should go to the folks out there teaching lessons for ten hours a day, riding and training tons of horses,s craping and saving and fundraising to try to make it happen.

[poltroon]

All this gnashing of teeth because someone missed a tug! It's really not all so bad out there...well, except for the short format...

And frankly, it was a great day of eventing. Many of us feared that it would be a Very Bad Day for someone, but it wasn't. The cross-country mattered, tiny mistakes mattered, and everyone will be back for another day.

I'd rather our Team lose a medal off an extra tug cross country than from a missed flying change in the dressage. ;)

[poltroon]

Spot on. Being involved in trying to help send a rider to England for a fall three day, I can tell you it is not cheap. Flying the horse alone is very, very expensive; add in quarantine costs, internal shipping within England, rider's plane ticket, accomodations, etc., and you're looking at a pile of resources. Add in that you've got to keep the horses at home going while you're gone, and that pile just grows. I've heard quoted that for what it costs to do one three day in Europe, you could campaign, vet, train, and board an Advanced horse in the United States for a year - in essence, trying to get that international experience almost doubles your per-horse budget annually. It's not a cheap process by any means, and tons of credit should go to the folks out there teaching lessons for ten hours a day, riding and training tons of horses,s craping and saving and fundraising to try to make it happen.

Riders are standing by waiting for your contributions.
http://www.ahtf3day.org/riders_area.html
Your contribution is tax deductible, and you can choose from a long list of up and coming and established riders. :)

[vineyridge]

Spot on. Being involved in trying to help send a rider to England for a fall three day, I can tell you it is not cheap. Flying the horse alone is very, very expensive; add in quarantine costs, internal shipping within England, rider's plane ticket, accomodations, etc., and you're looking at a pile of resources. Add in that you've got to keep the horses at home going while you're gone, and that pile just grows. I've heard quoted that for what it costs to do one three day in Europe, you could campaign, vet, train, and board an Advanced horse in the United States for a year - in essence, trying to get that international experience almost doubles your per-horse budget annually. It's not a cheap process by any means, and tons of credit should go to the folks out there teaching lessons for ten hours a day, riding and training tons of horses,s craping and saving and fundraising to try to make it happen.

So how come eventing is so much poorer than jumping or dressage? I mean that. I thought the USOC kicked in something for training, along with the horse groups.

God knows other countries support their athletes. Why, in the US, is it up to private individuals to send US riders to international competitions? That is something the USEF and USET Foundation are supposed to be doing.

The Show jumpers send developing rider teams to Europe for the summer campaign, and the dressage people send folks over to train with their coach. Who pays?

The dressage people have fund raisers that can raise 250,000 for their programs. Darren Chiacchia has fund raisers that raise more than 250,000 for him individually.

The money in eventing is clearly there if Darren can tap it; can the institutions figure out a way to run a fundraising campaign for a development trust the way colleges and universities do? There are model out there that actually WORK. Why not learn from them?

For the US to need something like the AHTA is just wrong!

[Reynard Ridge]

Oh come on...whoever may have gone instead may have come off as well when the horse slipped and went down.

Lets be fair here. At least be aware one named WAS selected but has nothing to ride. Sportsmanship anyone?

They all came back uninjured and they certainly are not the only team having alot of bad luck.

Well said. I personally think the arm chair quarterbacking targeting specific individuals is in poor taste. :no: Give it a rest already.

[sofiethewonderhorse]

Darn good last sentence! AGREED!

Please don't tell me that takes money. I think the money is there. I think it takes organization and effort first from ..... drum roll please...... ASSOCIATION LEADERSHIP....hear that giant sucking sound? It's the vacuum....

Four years ago I founded a non-profit called LegUpUSA, its mission was to organize fundraisers for Olympic recognized FEI Disciplines. I beat the drum to 3-Day, Show Jumpers & Dressage; attracted some of the top riders in all 3 disciplines to sit on the board, raised over $50,000 in the first two years.

This was one of the only (if not the only) non-profits in the country that could accept a horse as a tax deductable donation and GRANT the horse to a rider. Our legal council formed by the Bill Gates Foundation

The problem? everyone wanted the money, no one wanted to help with the work. 'Management" at USEA knew of our efforts, many other people knew of our efforts...no one wanted to help.

Guess what, I'm filing the papers to close the non-profit tomorrow. Wasn't worth it, I worked 20+ hours per week....for what?

Anyone want to have another candid, transparent conversation? PM me about the AHTF

The Dressage world is successful because they understand the concept of working together. The Show Jumpers just have a lot of money. The Eventers? In respect to one long eared dog on this forum, I won't share my opinion. :D

[snoopy]

In respect to one long eared dog on this forum, I won't share my opinion. :D


Go ahead, I can take it....

[Shrapnel]

I also wish that Kim and Bonnie were there.

But, like what several people have said, Bonnie's horse went lame in quarantine. I'm not really sure what happened to Kim's horse Paddy ?

And, does anyone know what happened to Stephen Bradley's other horse, From??? He was an alternate to the short list then disappeared.

And, I also really wonder how Buck would have done in Hong Kong....

[gottagrey]

While some can rag on the US selection system, rag on why Amy Tyron got to go versus someone who doesn't have the horse etc etc if you look at how some of the othe teams are doing - they've had their fair share of problems too. William Fox-Pitt put in a surprisingly poor dressage test but was spanking cross country and due to others not making the time moved up considerably. Also we have to take into consideration that some of the horses were waylayed earlier in the week - travel is hard on horses- think how long it takes us to recover from jet lag why should it be any less hard for horses? These athletes work hard to make it to these levels- whether they are gymnasts, swimmers, track stars whatever -they are proud to be part of their country's team but the Olympics are as much of personal achievement as they are a country's - these people realize it sucks to come this far to mess up - they don't need us to rub salt in their wounds - that's why one of the greates images of the Olymics is of that track star who pulled a hamstring - favored to win his event, collapsed on the track but finished in the arms of his father.

[Carol Ames]

Having been through several 4 year cycles with that friend; it is definitely about having the the right horse and rider ready to go in an Olympic or WEG year;it's not that easy ; fortunately Philip has a large string nof horses to choose from, but,i guarantee you he, and Karen and Kim are all thinking in terms of the next four years;My friend lived his life in 4 year cycles/increments ; even his marriage, and"courting owners"

[Carol Ames]

Having been through several 4 year cycles with a friend; it is definitely about having the the right horse and rider ready to go in an Olympic or WEG :yes:year;it's not that easy :no:; fortunately Philip has a large string of horses to choose :yes:from, but,i guarantee you he, and Karen, and Kim are all thinking in terms of the next four:yes: years;My friend lived his life in 4 year cycles/increments ; even planning his marriage:winkgrin:, and"courting :yes::lol:owners"

[retreadeventer]

So how come eventing is so much poorer than jumping or dressage? I mean that. I thought the USOC kicked in something for training, along with the horse groups.

God knows other countries support their athletes. Why, in the US, is it up to private individuals to send US riders to international competitions? That is something the USEF and USET Foundation are supposed to be doing.

The Show jumpers send developing rider teams to Europe for the summer campaign, and the dressage people send folks over to train with their coach. Who pays?

The dressage people have fund raisers that can raise 250,000 for their programs. Darren Chiacchia has fund raisers that raise more than 250,000 for him individually.

The money in eventing is clearly there if Darren can tap it; can the institutions figure out a way to run a fundraising campaign for a development trust the way colleges and universities do? There are model out there that actually WORK. Why not learn from them?

For the US to need something like the AHTA is just wrong!

Just exactly what I meant. Thanks, I appreciate it when I don't have to say it all! :)
The American Horse trials foundation takes a cut out of all contributions for "management" expenses. Please look at the fine print before you donate. Ask your rider personally if they have a fund set up and which fund they prefer you contribute to.
I really wish we had a good Eventing fund that was not difficult for contributions and disbursement. Trouble is, we have a bunch of little ones and USET should umbrella these and invest them properly.... or someone.....here comes that vacuum again....leaders? leaders? Where are our leaders?

[LisaB]

Okay, this got me thinking :o
The Australians kick everyone's ass on a consistent basis. Even when they come from Oz to the US, they BOOM, kick our ass.
The Brits have a ton of depth too.
And you know what, they supposedly take a lot LESS lessons than we do. They don't have a trainer up their ass as kids.
So why are they so polished?
My one thought is that they are raised in more of a pony club type of training environment. They may not be actual PC'ers but they learn all the horsemanship and ride all different types of styles. Also, the Australians go out to the real wilds and learn to cope. In the US, just about everyone starts off in hunter land in a perfectly groomed arena. And then how many of us, once we get the eventing bug, have to completely re-learn how to ride? You have an ass, please use it! Whereas, the rest of the world learns effective, not pretty riding first. The Europeans first learn dressage, then show jumping. They have really come up to speed on x-c.
Also, we are really diversified. We have all the breed shows. I saw a video of a western girl riding without saddle or bridle. I would love to get my mitts on her and turn her to the dark side! And we have western, rodeo, walkers, saddleseat, etc. I'm sure there's some real talent out there and they choose not to do the Olympic disciplines.
We also have diversified breeders.
So basically the US is decentralized in equestrian activities. Couple that with the way our kids are first taught, that's why we have no depth.

[DustInTime04]

Bonnie wanted to be there but (see above) Merloch was injured in Quarantine. Kim doesn't have the horse this year (remember it takes horse AND rider) but should be @ WEG and London. Heidi should have been there too, but Spy also injured. Now, having said all that, the riders / horse combo's we DID have are some of the best, just very bad luck for 3 of the 5. Horses and riders both looked very tired. Lets give them all a Hero's welcome when they come home. They went, they put their horses on the line and they tried their damndest. It just wasn't our turn, this time.


I think that summarizes it perfectly... no one could have predicted those things, but they went out there trying to represent the US the best they could and they deserve respect for their hardwork alone.

[Moesha]

Okay, this got me thinking :o
The Australians kick everyone's ass on a consistent basis. Even when they come from Oz to the US, they BOOM, kick our ass.
The Brits have a ton of depth too.
And you know what, they supposedly take a lot LESS lessons than we do. They don't have a trainer up their ass as kids.
So why are they so polished?
My one thought is that they are raised in more of a pony club type of training environment. They may not be actual PC'ers but they learn all the horsemanship and ride all different types of styles. Also, the Australians go out to the real wilds and learn to cope. In the US, just about everyone starts off in hunter land in a perfectly groomed arena. And then how many of us, once we get the eventing bug, have to completely re-learn how to ride? You have an ass, please use it! Whereas, the rest of the world learns effective, not pretty riding first. The Europeans first learn dressage, then show jumping. They have really come up to speed on x-c.
Also, we are really diversified. We have all the breed shows. I saw a video of a western girl riding without saddle or bridle. I would love to get my mitts on her and turn her to the dark side! And we have western, rodeo, walkers, saddleseat, etc. I'm sure there's some real talent out there and they choose not to do the Olympic disciplines.
We also have diversified breeders.
So basically the US is decentralized in equestrian activities. Couple that with the way our kids are first taught, that's why we have no depth.

While I agree with the idea that a pony club type environment is a great start I completely disagree with the slight slam on the hunter/jumper world in your post.

To begin with you said it yourself, European riders tend to start with dressage then move to jumping ( show jumping)...which is a vital base for anyone...however both of those discilpines are generally the weakest, if I am not mistake, in U.S. eventing?? So maybe that is the problem right there...not polishing enough and not building a solid enough base in those areas...

Also, you say most riders get their start in "hunter land"....starting off in a hunter/jumper TYPE riding program is far from "hunter land"....I think if most event riders especially at the lower leves had started in true "hunter land" you would see a lot more polish in the dressage and show jumping phases then you do...and frankly you would see a lot more accuracy to the jumps. Most people do not start in manicured rings..quite the opposite with pony club and 4-H and local events the rings may be hill sides and/or grass or simply poor footing...most people do not start out at WEF or Kentucky riding in such manicured grounds.

You cannot lay the blame on the hunter/jumper world for this way of thinking...taking some lessons at a barn or riding in a ring does not mean an entire sytem is based in what you call hunter land....if that were the case we would see a lot better riding..if nothing else in form..if as you are saying it leads to ineffectiveness....what many of us observe is very unpolished, rough and seat of the pants riding when watching many horse trials and lower levels,especially of combined training.

I also agree with those saying arm chair quarter backing is unfair...these riders have worked so hard and to criticize them and say they don't deserve to be there is terrible...I personally am proud of our team...win or loose in the medals doesn't equate the winning of being there!! :)

[rabicon]

Okay JMO but this is what I saw.

Amy was not ready for this (has nothing to do with me not liking her) She looked very unsecure in the dressage and the xcountry and she was very very distracting in the dressage :no: She had no control over Poggio when they came to that jump nor did she at the two jumps before.

Karen IMO had a horse that was just to young and inexperienced to be at the Olympics.

I don't know what happened with Phillip but that really sucks.

and Becky's refusal IMO was because she did not set Comet up correctly. She came at the tail so slowly as if they were stopping and then she pulled a little to the left and well comet followed but over followed causing the refusal.

With this said its easy to be an armchair QB :lol: and I don't ride at that level by no means but this is just how it looked to me.

[LisaB]

Moesha, not slamming the hunter people. It's their style, their way. Go for it. They love their horses. But really, come ON. The transition to eventing and dressage and jumpers from the hunter seat is huge. Whereas in other parts of the world, they have no transition from one discipline to another really. And for some reason, that's where the majority of riders begin their jumping experience. What I want to emphasize is our upbringing, not slamming the hunter world at all. That's where our deviation is. Our kids being brought up differently. Hence, no depth in our eventing team.

[wanderlust]

Also, you say most riders get their start in "hunter land"....starting off in a hunter/jumper TYPE riding program is far from "hunter land"....I think if most event riders especially at the lower leves had started in true "hunter land" you would see a lot more polish in the dressage and show jumping phases then you do...and frankly you would see a lot more accuracy to the jumps. Most people do not start in manicured rings..quite the opposite with pony club and 4-H and local events the rings may be hill sides and/or grass or simply poor footing...most people do not start out at WEF or Kentucky riding in such manicured grounds.

You cannot lay the blame on the hunter/jumper world for this way of thinking...taking some lessons at a barn or riding in a ring does not mean an entire sytem is based in what you call hunter land....if that were the case we would see a lot better riding..if nothing else in form..if as you are saying it leads to ineffectiveness....what many of us observe is very unpolished, rough and seat of the pants riding when watching many horse trials and lower levels,especially of combined training.

Sorry LisaB, gotta agree with Moesha here. In real hunter/equitation/jumper land, rails are almost never touched nevermind brought down. Distances are not only not missed, they are highly accurate and the exact right spot for the type of fence being presented. Good flatwork is a key component of any good program, and collection, extension, lateral work and shoulder-in are a component of almost every warm up. The good riders do not have any issue adjusting to riding over changing terrain. A lot of our venues out here in CA have Irish banks, grobs, ditches, etc that are used in the jumper and big eq ring and some of the arenas are sloped, crowned or have undulating terrain. The good kids also know how to adjust their ride (i.e. position, pace, collection, distance) depending on the ring they are in. The "hunter ring" is not the reason for lack of depth in eventing in any way/shape form because your average rider who can't adjust is never going to make the long list anyways.

Now, the local yahoos who claim to do "hunter/jumper", well, I'd agree they serve not much purpose except to get kids on horses and teach them to go in circles. But the good hunter/jumper/eq riders, they can ride over just about anything on any terrain.

[LisaB]

Sorry, clarification here. Yup, not the uber-a-rated hunters. They sometimes school x-c and they are truly lovely to watch. I'm talking about the other 90%! There's a huge difference between the a rated and below. Like 2 totally different riding styles. That perching, ass-in-the-air, hammer handed crap is what I'm talking about. And that seems to be very prevalent and catering to the new kids starting to ride. The lessons are affordable but not correct. Why?

[jilltx]

Okay JMO but this is what I saw.

Amy was not ready for this (has nothing to do with me not liking her) She looked very unsecure in the dressage and the xcountry and she was very very distracting in the dressage :no: She had no control over Poggio when they came to that jump nor did she at the two jumps before.

Karen IMO had a horse that was just to young and inexperienced to be at the Olympics.

I don't know what happened with Phillip but that really sucks.

and Becky's refusal IMO was because she did not set Comet up correctly. She came at the tail so slowly as if they were stopping and then she pulled a little to the left and well comet followed but over followed causing the refusal.

With this said its easy to be an armchair QB :lol: and I don't ride at that level by no means but this is just how it looked to me.

That was EXACTLY my impression from my armchair. :winkgrin:

I was AMAZED by Karen's ability to stay on!! Well done.

[pwynnnorman]

[quote=wanderlust;3436290]Sorry LisaB, gotta agree with Moesha here. In real hunter/equitation/jumper land, rails are almost never touched nevermind brought down. Distances are not only not missed, they are highly accurate and the exact right spot for the type of fence being presented. Good flatwork is a key component of any good program, and collection, extension, lateral work and shoulder-in are a component of almost every warm up. The good riders do not have any issue adjusting to riding over changing terrain. A lot of our venues out here in CA have Irish banks, grobs, ditches, etc that are used in the jumper and big eq ring and some of the arenas are sloped, crowned or have undulating terrain. The good kids also know how to adjust their ride (i.e. position, pace, collection, distance) depending on the ring they are in. The "hunter ring" is not the reason for lack of depth in eventing in any way/shape form because your average rider who can't adjust is never going to make the long list anyways.
[quote]

Following said in the spirit of the discussion/debate--not personal, wanderlust.

BULL. Full of bull.

How can I say that?

PONY HUNTERS.

Nuff said.

[pwynnnorman]

Well, probably not quite enough.

Someone earlier wrote:

So basically the US is decentralized in equestrian activities. Couple that with the way our kids are first taught, that's why we have no depth.


NOW connect that with the entire pony hunter arena AND how it is connected to the ammy and junior arena and you should get what I mean.

I know that market well and I can tell you categorically that there's a vast majority of top circuit trainers who won't even glance at a beast that isn't easy. Those who are rewarded in hunters are rewarded--in and out of the ring, in wins, in sales, in prestige--for EASY. Hunters, like western pleasure horses, have evolved into that place in the sport where Easy is King. It's great because you can make a living off of Easy. You can produce the packer and get the big bucks. You can ride the packer and get big notoriety.

Hunters are NOT the place where a lot of sweat equity happens...and that lack of sweat equity is seeping into every horse sport out there. It's the American Way to want it NOW.

Longing without stirrups for six months is NOT the American Way. Riding greenies so you've got split-second timing and genuine judgment when it comes to whether the creature is balanced or not is NOT the American Way. Buying Easy IS the American Way. And keeping it easy--even as the levels increase (as in, buy the better horse rather than up your level of riding by putting more hours in the tack) is how 75-80% of today's trainers put food on their tables.

Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Best example is how you cannot get a beast sold at all in the hunter market if it doesn't have a lead change. Why? Because no one has the time, skill or even the INCLINATION to put one on themselves. THAT is the greatest depiction of the shallowness of hunters you can get (if you really are into riding and training and the market, that is). And, again, my point is that what makes that the absolutely most popular "model" in hunters is what has seeped into eventing, too.

It's inevitable because it's cultural.

[KSevnter]

Well, probably not quite enough.


I know that market well and I can tell you categorically that there's a vast majority of top circuit trainers who won't even glance at a beast that isn't easy. Those who are rewarded in hunters are rewarded--in and out of the ring, in wins, in sales, in prestige--for EASY.

And, again, my point is that what makes that the absolutely most popular "model" in hunters is what has seeped into eventing, too.

It's inevitable because it's cultural.

And borrowing on this theory, I have a good friend from college that finished top 5 in both medal and maclay finals, who got there on a horse she made herself. Guess what? When it came time to sell the beastie and go to college, she could not sell him because all those kids couldn't ride him. And no she wasn't at a backyard barn, she rode with Louise Serio and company. It took her forever to sell him and he wound up being sold for a lot less as a jumper, not an eq horse.

However, she is the only Eq person I know that I trusted enough to ride my intermediate event horse.

It absolutely has seeped into eventing, that is why Young Riders now have multiple horses that are kept at trainers barns and tuned up by said trainers and oh if one of them happens to start stopping, well go out and buy a new one of course! Don't fix the problem, why bother when you can get a new one?

[magnolia73]

The transition to eventing and dressage and jumpers from the hunter seat is huge.

Then the damn eventers and dressage people need to step up and start recruiting newbies. They need lesson barns with a dozen lesson horses. If you want good eventers and think that somehow hunters gives them a disadvantage- then take the inititative to have the lesson barn.

I know exactly ONE eventer in Charlotte that would give a lesson to a total newbie. Exactly one dressage barn with a lesson horse. But I know of 10 places to get started as a hunter.

And I know this is not the normal "hunters suck thread". But I always feel like people blame the hunters for everything. Every discipline that thinks huntseat is detrimental to their sport because it gets people into "bad habits" needs to make the time and financial commitment to starting beginner programs. It isn't about hunters being wrong or needing to change their style. It is about eventers taking the initiative to attract new riders from the beginning.

FWIW, Gina and Phillip put in lovely stadium rounds that anyone would like to emulate.

[Moesha]

Lisa B I completely agree with you the transition between discipline....but I think the top notch programs that really ingrain a certain stlye also teach outside the box and that makes the transition simply that a transition instead of an obstacle course....and I fear that english or hunt seat style lesson programs or barns are being held up as hunter show barns and they are truly worlds apart...I think most people get started in the former and to me it is not fair to call that a "hunter barn."

I also am in line with Wanderlusts views....I see the harder more technical courses being offered and the fact is we all know many of the "quientessential" looking hunter/eq riders are actually out there galloping around fields for fun and jumping over x-country jumps...but when they are in the show ring they are showing and so they present themselves accordingly.

pwynnorman, I do agree that there tends to be a "dulling" of the show ring hunter...but I don't think you can say all trainers shy away from horses that can be difficult..business wise of course it is easier to sell and deal with something more like flipper than jaws...but some of the more brilliant hunters are no cake walk to deal with...

I just think we should remember that ALL disciplines have standards and the good, bad and ugly in them. I don't think we shold lable an english riding all arounder instruction/stables automatically as a hunter background. I think we need more emphasis on things like pony club and 4-H to give an all around education, and I mean riding, vet science, barn care, management, everything in between...there is no reason kids can't focus on one discipline or as many as they want and not really be horsepeople...

p.s. I personally would love to see the "U.K" style of working hunters take root with these derby's...I don't think it will go that far but my fingers are crossed that at least some elements of that will start to take hold :)

[magnolia73]

Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Best example is how you cannot get a beast sold at all in the hunter market if it doesn't have a lead change. Why? Because no one has the time, skill or even the INCLINATION to put one on themselves. THAT is the greatest depiction of the shallowness of hunters you can get (if you really are into riding and training and the market, that is). And, again, my point is that what makes that the absolutely most popular "model" in hunters is what has seeped into eventing, too.

You know why? Not every horse can get their changes. Period. I owned one like that. Nice horse- no change. Never did get his changes. My trainer was excellent- she evented, did dressage, her mother a talented dressage trainer. In no way, shape or form was that horse ever going to swap a lead. So it was basically always out of the ribbons. Yeah- perhaps shallow- I loved that horse to death- but if your goal is to compete in the hunters and the horse lacks the skill and may or may not pick it up.... its not worth much.

Passing on a horse with no lead change- not much different than passingon the horse that doesn't do water or has a ditch problem. It's common sense. And a protection of an investment.

[Moesha]

I agree with Magnolia there are many cases even with the best training a horse simply is not going to be able to do something or accomplish certain training to allow them to be competitive ....I don't think it is fair, Pwynnnorman to say that it is the "norm" that hunter trainers as opposed to other trainers won't deal with certain problems....I think you find more hunter and dressage trainers and then eventing ( with the dressage factor) ahead of jumpers in not being willing to deal with certain flaws that cannot be trained or corrected....when certain movements/tests/behavior is EXPECTED and REQUIRED....if a horse cannot be consistent or learn a certain movement...then a trainer needing that will pass that horse by or find a suitable job for that horse...I have seen trainers spend countless hours trying to fix lead change problems among other things...so unless you know what people do at home you can't speculate that horses are easy or only those that automatically do things are kept around....things can look easy but aren't or are after countless hours of hard work!

[Fence2Fence]

It is about eventers taking the initiative to attract new riders from the beginning.



I agree with alot of what Magnolia said, especially the quote above. There's been alot of talk here on COTH about how eventers lack the diverse riding background like the riders from the 'good ol days.' Warning--overstatement ahead: It seems to me (as an adult rider who didn't grow up in pony club), we don't want newbies, we don't want hunters, and we sure as hell don't want adult ammies.

There is a huge need for rider education, for both beginner riders and those been-around-a-while riders.

I'm not sure I'm expressing my thoughts really well since I'm dead ass tired...but our lack of depth of team horse and riders isn't just about money, but it's about quality and affordable riding programs and activities, clubs, camps, etc that create good riders and horsemen. Our talent pool is a bit shallow.

[west5]

You know why? Not every horse can get their changes. Period. I owned one like that. Nice horse- no change. Never did get his changes.I loved that horse to death- but if your goal is to compete in the hunters and the horse lacks the skill and may or may not pick it up.... its not worth much.

Passing on a horse with no lead change- not much different than passingon the horse that doesn't do water or has a ditch problem. It's common sense. And a protection of an investment.

One of my favorite event horses in the barn was a hunter reject for just this reason. Wouldn't swap in one direction.

That black tb mare packed an ammy around training level for years and was sound until her early 20's with no maintenance of any kind. She would hack out on the buckle and would jump any fence from any spot at any angle no matter how poorly ridden. Her owner used to let me ride her once in a while. Phenomenal horse and they got her for nothing.

[Trixie]

Moesha, not slamming the hunter people. It's their style, their way. Go for it. They love their horses. But really, come ON. The transition to eventing and dressage and jumpers from the hunter seat is huge. Whereas in other parts of the world, they have no transition from one discipline to another really. And for some reason, that's where the majority of riders begin their jumping experience. What I want to emphasize is our upbringing, not slamming the hunter world at all. That's where our deviation is. Our kids being brought up differently. Hence, no depth in our eventing team.


The correct basics are the same, be them hunters OR eventers. The styles become different as the riders progress, but if one is riding CORRECTLY, they should be minor adjustments, not major adjustments. A *good* rider should be able to do both successfully, canter around a hunter course and win, and go over to an event and get around the XC safely and smoothly.

I was brought up in the show hunter world. We were taught to go into the show ring and win – but what were we doing at home? Riding without stirrups. Riding insane green beans. Playing the dollar game bareback, over fences. Riding through the woods. Jumping over logs, into streams. While it amuses me to no end that people assume that hunter riders never leave the ring and hunter pony children never get to play around with their ponies, in my experience, that’s patently untrue. There are exceptions to everything, though, of course.

Sorry, clarification here. Yup, not the uber-a-rated hunters. They sometimes school x-c and they are truly lovely to watch. I'm talking about the other 90%! There's a huge difference between the a rated and below. Like 2 totally different riding styles. That perching, ass-in-the-air, hammer handed crap is what I'm talking about. And that seems to be very prevalent and catering to the new kids starting to ride. The lessons are affordable but not correct. Why?

There’s a difference between a good, experienced event rider and the often poor and scary riding seen at the lower levels, also. I feel like it’s been said a thousand times over that the lower – BEGINNING – levels of a sport do not a sport make. There are lower level riders and bad riders in EVERY sport. They are not the ideal.

You should be bemoaning a lack of good basic beginner trainers, NOT blaming the “hunter world” for a lack of good riding in horse sports.

I too had an exceedingly fancy pony with no lead change. Beautiful, beautiful pony won hacks at quite a few A shows in Virginia. She was fancy as all get out, nice jump. Green as grass and had a dirty stop, too, but I adored her. We were able to work through the stop, work through the mareishness and the bad attitude… couldn’t work through the lack of a lead change. And in the hunters, performing a consistent lead change is a required task. If the horse or pony doesn’t have one, it’s unable to perform the required task that the sport is requiring of it. As someone else said, it’s a risk not everyone is willing to take: similar to an eventer that won’t jump into water or over ditches. Could it eventually learn? Maybe. But there's thousands of other horses that can already do it, and they're a better risk.

The goal of the hunter ring is to make everything look easy. To those that do not compete in the hunters, they assume that it really IS that easy. They miss the hours upon hours upon hours of training that often goes into making it look so easy.

[wanderlust]

The correct basics are the same, be them hunters OR eventers. The styles become different as the riders progress, but if one is riding CORRECTLY, they should be minor adjustments, not major adjustments. A *good* rider should be able to do both successfully, canter around a hunter course and win, and go over to an event and get around the XC safely and smoothly.

Thank you, Trixie. Our kids (and adults) get drilled without stirrups. On the flat, over fences. Through gymnastics. They ride the tough horses, they go gallop on the trails.

Wynn, I won't disagree that the hunter ring likes easy. Particularly for the nervous adult amateurs and kids who are learning or who just aren't talented enough to do anything other than be a passenger. As far as pony hunters go... they are ponies. For kids. Kids who will outgrow them sooner rather than later. I could have probably lived without the two concussions my pony hunter gave me as a kid, and if my parents had enough money to buy me something made and easy that wouldn't have driven me into the ground on a regular basis, they would have done it in a heartbeat.

Regarding changes: agree with everything Trixie and others have said. Changes are NOT EASY and sometimes impossible to put on a horse that doesn't get them easily and early. You need changes to do the hunters and the eq, unless you can remember your leads over every single fence, and that can diminish the quality of your jump. I have a horse who would be a great eq horse, but is likely resigned to the jumpers because he just cannot consistently get changes, even when asked absolutely correctly. It stinks.

[magnolia73]

And lets face it- starting beginners is not lucrative here in the US. The barn I'm at now has a charming lesson program with trails, bareback, games. As far as I can tell, it perhaps covers the costs of owning the lesson horses. And the BO was telling me that lesson programs with schoolies are closing down all over our area. It is one of the few that is not funneling kids up into showing hunters. I can see the why and how the "hunter way" has evolved. You lose money on your schoolies then make some back if you get a kid that buys the horse and starts the showing. And it keeps parents much happier if you buy the pony that packs and gets its basics correct.

So like I said- the helpful thing would be for eventers to get 2-3 lesson horses and have a good WS operate a small lesson program.

[LisaB]

Wynn hit it. And we're justifying what she's saying that there's timid beginners, etc. Umm, I beg to differ. Wynn is right on. You all posting may be doing all the right things, the way hunters is intended. But there a ton of riders out there (in all disciplines) that want easy.
Take for instance, I was selling a foxhunter. He was a tb. Sweet as could be, really loved foxhunting. And there were riders who thought they wanted a tb because they see the masters and whips out there magnificently riding a bold careful tb. Well, he wound up being a whip's horse for cheap. Why? Because these people never took a lesson in their life and expected to ride a trained TB. He even went so far as to buck someone off. Yeah, jab him in the side and see what happens! These people weren't ready for that kind of horse but they thought if they bought the ride, then they would look just like the masters and whips.
And why don't we have beginner eventing/dressage instructors? It's true. There are folks at work who ask me who to go to for lessons for their kid. And I send them onto the local hunter trainer who is safe but not necessarily correct. It may be because eventing has just recently recognized that there are people who want to remain at the low levels. And that the trainers don't need to push the riders higher and faster. Maybe there needs to be a bit more trickle down effect in this mindset?

[asterix]

I think this is a huge problem, the lack of lesson/eventing programs...

I can think of two in this area, and I've ridden at both barns. It is really, really hard to find proper school horses who can actually pack someone new around even unrecognized BBN. Many of them don't look all that sound in dressage. Many of them just can't take being out in the open with someone hanging on their mouth. Many of them are good eggs but timid and never get past the water or the little unrevetted ditch.

And it's really, really hard to find instructors who are COMPETENT and EXPERIENCED at eventing to teach very low level riders.

I would say both programs I know do a decent job getting people ready to event elementary or BBN...but it's a stretch to take those horses even recognized BN, so unless the rider is ready to lease and can find a suitable horse, there tends to be a gap there.

I do see a lot of riders coming out at BN or N with a horse they just bought -- unsuitable, scary, or just 2 years before they were really ready.

[pwynnnorman]

You know why? Not every horse can get their changes. Period. I owned one like that. Nice horse- no change. Never did get his changes. My trainer was excellent- she evented, did dressage, her mother a talented dressage trainer. In no way, shape or form was that horse ever going to swap a lead. So it was basically always out of the ribbons. Yeah- perhaps shallow- I loved that horse to death- but if your goal is to compete in the hunters and the horse lacks the skill and may or may not pick it up.... its not worth much.

Passing on a horse with no lead change- not much different than passingon the horse that doesn't do water or has a ditch problem. It's common sense. And a protection of an investment.

No, Magnolia, you aren't getting it with this kind of response.

I'm talking about 3- and 4-year olds. I'm talking about 5-year-olds whose owners (like me) choose to take them slowly because they'll pop a cork if you press them for lead changes u/s. Meanwhile, I've GOT a 4-year-old who championed at his very first show--a big A rated one at that--ridden by a catch rider to four blues and a red. Why? He's easy and was doing changes AT THREE! There's "talent" and there's "hunter talent." Hunter talent is EASY. Not unlike dressage talent, in fact. There are simply horses ponies out there for whom all you need to do is shift your weight and you've got the change. There are others whose musculature and mentality need development before you ask. The relevant question is: which type produces RIDERS and which PASSENGERS? If hunter trainers only buy the easy ones, what kind of riders are they producing? It's obvious!

And, increasingly -- and, please, Moesha, Magnolia: I NEVER write "all" about anything. A generalization is NOT "all inclusive" ...but I would ask how many horses and ponies you've sold into the better markets and what their traits and prices were and whether you sold them to your trainer's best friend's sister, etc.. The fact that is talked about constantly within the industry if not publicly (actually, publicly, too) is that there are simply very, very few hunter trainers out there who train--and if you can't train, how can you really develop good riders? I use the flying change as just one example, although there are tons of others. Few can put a change on a horse that isn't easy, nor can the riders they produce GET the change on a horse if it is in the least bit "complicated" (like, don't just pull that ponies head around or don't just look that way and apply this leg--do this, this and this...NO WAY. And yet do "this, this and this" is good riding, right? But since this, this and this is NOT taught since more and more riders only ride easy/simple, good riding is not taught either.)


The goal of the hunter ring is to make everything look easy. To those that do not compete in the hunters, they assume that it really IS that easy. They miss the hours upon hours upon hours of training that often goes into making it look so easy.


AGain, that is absolute bull, especially on the top circuit. HARDLY ANYONE PUTS THOSE HOURS IN ANY MORE. They can't. They're too busy showing. AND EVERYONE talks about that. Why ignore it? I'm not saying anything here that Bill Moroney, Sue Ashe, Linda Allen, Geoff Teall and so on and so on haven't said and written about a LOT. Practically no one on the better/best circuits is out there on a hunter spending hours and hours getting something to happen unless it is hours of LTD or or or the owner or some highly motivated but under-financed rider has no choice but to. Yeah, sure, maybe some poor bloke (like ME, in fact: I do spend hours and hours and get them sold, but ONLY after I've put it on them--not the end user or the end user's trainer! That my point, in fact: no sale until it's easy, period. No one buys it for the end user rider because, these days, most "end users" can't ride it until it's easy--because they haven't been taught to. THAT is the vast majority of h-j-e and even dressage riders of today, alas).

Again, though, please note that I am not really faulting the trainers of today. Horses are an expensive sport. You don't get people to pay a ton of money for something that isn't fun most of the time. People don't pay to work hard. Executives, housewives, students don't find time in their oh-so-busy and stressed out days to go to the barn and NOT feel "accomplished." (PLEASE don't now get off track again and say "I work hard," or "I know someone who"--individual anecdotes are evidence of nothing). Fact is, people are willing to pay mightily to get that feeling (of accomplishment/control/superiority, etc.). It's important in their lives to have a place where they can feel that way--and many protest mightily, like some here, when they are asked to look more closely at that phenomena, in spite of the fact that it is entirely understandable...and VERY American.

[Trixie]

AGain, that is absolute bull, especially on the top circuit. HARDLY ANYONE PUTS THOSE HOURS IN ANY MORE. They can't. They're too busy showing. AND EVERYONE talks about that. Why ignore it? I'm not saying anything here that Bill Moroney, Sue Ashe, Linda Allen, Geoff Teall and so on and so on haven't said and written about a LOT. Practically no one on the better/best circuits is out there on a hunter spending hours and hours getting something to happen unless it is hours of LTD or or or the owner or some highly motivated but under-financed rider has no choice but to. Yeah, sure, maybe some poor bloke (like ME, in fact: I do spend hours and hours and get them sold, but ONLY after I've put it on them--not the end user or the end user's trainer! That my point, in fact: no sale until it's easy, period. No one buys it for the end user rider because, these days, most "end users" can't ride it until it's easy--because they haven't been taught to. THAT is the vast majority of h-j-e and even dressage riders of today, alas).

Most of the top riders DO put in the hours. How ELSE do they get that good?

Many, many riders take pride in bringing along their horses by themselves. However, as you said, on the “top circuit,” people are paying $2K+ a week per horse to be there. Trainer fees, hotel fees, stall fees, entries, etc. This all adds up IMMENSELY. If you’re going to play in that game, chances are, you want to have a chance at winning. There’s no point in taking on a horse that isn’t good enough and may never be good enough, not for the cost. Particularly for your average “A” circuit ammie, who most likely works a very good and most likely stressful job with long hours (or has a very rich husband) to AFFORD to be there. It is what it is.

However, that’s not to say that there aren’t thousands upon thousands of riders that work for it. That there aren’t plenty of people that take the time to buy a prospect and bring it along. That spend the hours in the saddle. I don’t know if you realize this, but you DO generalize immensely.

There are simply horses ponies out there for whom all you need to do is shift your weight and you've got the change. There are others whose musculature and mentality need development before you ask.

I remember the thread where you were displeased that you were told that if you’re marketing a pony for a SALE – as a HUNTER PROSPECT - it’s better to not take it to shows until it’s got the change, showing that it can, in fact, do what's going to be asked of it. For most in the hunter industry, if it can’t show that it’s capable of doing the job offhand, it’s simply less of a risk they’re willing to take: NOT because the riders and trainers aren’t good, but simply, because there are ENOUGH of the first type of prospect (shift weight and get change) to make them less willing to take on the risk of a horse that has already shown that he isn’t yet good enough. It doesn’t mean that they won’t BECOME good enough; it makes them MORE OF A RISK.

The pony I had that didn't get her change was leased from a BNT in Virginia, bred and started by him. She was sent to me (at the time a kid showing the "A" circuit but without a lot of $) and not a kid with more resources because she was the fanciest thing that I could afford, and I hoped that I could work her through it with my trainer. She went for a lot less to me than she would've to someone else, simply because she was more of a risk. The elements were all there, but she had not proven that she could do the job.

[Sannois]

But have watched The Cross Country and Stadium, Heres my question, Gina aside, Bravo for her. What do the Germans and the Brits and the Aussies have that we do not consistantly have??

[tx3dayeventer]

But have watched The Cross Country and Stadium, Heres my question, Gina aside, Bravo for her. What do the Germans and the Brits and the Aussies have that we do not consistantly have??

You answered yourself. Consistency. They are consistent, every ride is consistent. Until we (the US) can get more consistent we won't be competitive. If we had put in 4 of the 5 rides that were as consistent as Gina's we would have be unbeatable.

[Everythingbutwings]

But have watched The Cross Country and Stadium, Heres my question, Gina aside, Bravo for her. What do the Germans and the Brits and the Aussies have that we do not consistantly have??

Denny said it - "Why do Fritz and Heidi beat Sally and Bill?" (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=162114)

I think it's hilarious that people blame hunter trainers for not bringing along good little eventers. Good riding is good riding. You either ride correctly or you do not. Might as well rant and rail over the horrid lack of proper training a Saddleseat instructor is giving beginning eventers.

Can someone explain to me why having a lead change is the all encompassing must have for a hunter but not for an eventer who, by the intention of the sport, must have a solid dressage test? Do they not change leads in combined training dressage? :confused:

[Sannois]

Denny said it - "Why do Fritz and Heidi beat Sally and Bill?" (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=162114)

I think it's hilarious that people blame hunter trainers for not bringing along good little eventers. Good riding is good riding. You either ride correctly or you do not. Might as well rant and rail over the horrid lack of proper training a Saddleseat instructor is giving beginning eventers.

Can someone explain to me why having a lead change is the all encompassing must have for a hunter but not for an eventer who, by the intention of the sport, must have a solid dressage test? Do they not change leads in combined training dressage? :confused:

I typed the above question and then discovered Dennys thread.
My husband gave the answer before I could even type it about the germans! And he is not horsey!

[Trixie]

Take for instance, I was selling a foxhunter. He was a tb. Sweet as could be, really loved foxhunting. And there were riders who thought they wanted a tb because they see the masters and whips out there magnificently riding a bold careful tb. Well, he wound up being a whip's horse for cheap. Why? Because these people never took a lesson in their life and expected to ride a trained TB. He even went so far as to buck someone off. Yeah, jab him in the side and see what happens! These people weren't ready for that kind of horse but they thought if they bought the ride, then they would look just like the masters and whips.

Obviously, a horse that can’t take a joke is going to go for less money. Any horse without the training or amateur rideability is going to go for less. Period, end of story. ESPECIALLY if it’s prone to bucking people off.

Especially when out foxhunting, one usually figures it out right quick the sort of ride they need.

[magnolia73]

Sorry-
Pwynn- I know the type of trainer of which you speak. You are right- she would not want your pony. But her business is producing happy recreational riders that go have fun at the shows. I simply fail to see how her business model has any impact on Amy Tryon's ability to ride Poggio or Gina Mile's success. I know that the lead change is a more advanced movement in dressage. Most hunter trainers probably do not have the ability to train a horse and rider to that level in the time they have, alongside the other skills they need to train. So yes, they do prefer an easy change (and for that matter, a horse that gets the numbers in the lines easily). And honestly- the kids she teaches lack the talent, work ethic and love of horses to ever be serious riders. But her kids have NO IMPACT on the kids I know who do have talent, work ethic and ability- they are at other barns riding hard horses and getting experience.

It may well affect your business model as breeder. And it may mean that to stay in business you don't breed the Teddy's anymore. Who knows- that may impact the team if people stop breeding talent and only breed compliant, quiet horses. But I fail to see how the demands of people at any level in a seperate sport can have an impact on the people at the top of the other sport.

I actually know of a small handful of event kids who are out there toughing it out on unmade horses. I know of young rider aged eventers who have all the qualities that we want. I have never heard them use the excuse of "hunters" as reasoning for their problems. I think focusing support on these young riders is far more important than complaining and trying to change a different sport. If you don't appreciate hunters, then why sell them your ponies? Find a different market. I agree- hunters, pony finals- not everyones cup of tea. Obviously not your cup of tea. Instead of changing what works for them, start your own. I bet plenty of people would love to see a pony division of eventing. And it might be that to insure strong future teams that eventing and dressage need to step up and start their own riders off in the way they need to be started.

[magnolia73]

*note*- IMO, when we lose our future team riders is that age from 18 to 24 when they are transitioning from junior to adult. We ignore that stage and how many have to give up on a career due to the financial challenge of starting a career with horses.

[KSevnter]

But her kids have NO IMPACT on the kids I know who do have talent, work ethic and ability- they are at other barns riding hard horses and getting experience.

I think those kids do have an impact on the others working hard elsewhere. It is the passenger kids who are being rewarded at the shows by winning and many (not all) the hard working kids, especially at 12,13,14 see that as the reward. It is extremely difficult for young children to comprehend the reward of riding the tough ones and no matter how savvy the kid this does have an impact. In the end, many of them quit riding and it is a shame. Then all we are left with is the well-funded, ones whether they are talented or talentless.

[Trixie]

But, KS, if a kid wants it badly enough, they will work for it, and they will make it happen. When you've got a talented kid that wants it like that, they often wind up basically unbeatable. Look at Margie Engle.

[Moesha]

Everythingbutwings I agree so much, what next barrel racers are responsible for dressage riders basics? Instead of making blanket and inaccurate generalizations slamming the hunter world and doing so falsely, if eventing need fixing then be honest about the shortcomings and deal with it. I can't believe the comments that the hunter world is responsible for something that has nothing to do with showing hunters.

All of these negative comments are passing the buck...instead of being proud and grateful for having a silver medal in the individual eventing competition at the olympics..people are degrading the riders on the team for not ..winning gold?? Maybe that is part of the problem...just wanting to win a gold medal and not truly being the best at it...there were a lot of good riders and teams out there who on any given day could be at the top of that podium...we certainly have had our share of incredible olympic success in eventing...don't you think other countries strive to win too? Maybe it isn't just the training they go through but maybe there is an attitude and mentaility they have that we need far greater than any new training methods.

[poltroon]

Sorry, clarification here. Yup, not the uber-a-rated hunters. They sometimes school x-c and they are truly lovely to watch. I'm talking about the other 90%! There's a huge difference between the a rated and below. Like 2 totally different riding styles. That perching, ass-in-the-air, hammer handed crap is what I'm talking about. And that seems to be very prevalent and catering to the new kids starting to ride. The lessons are affordable but not correct. Why?

Regardless of what is or isn't happening in hunters today, all our riders on the Team are nearly 40, and if they have a hunter/jumper background, they're from the same kinds of programs that produced Meredith Michaels Beerbaum, kicking the world's butt with the best of the California/American system plus the German system. Lots of work without stirrups, lots of riding lots of different horses, lots of hours spent on polish.

[KSevnter]

But, KS, if a kid wants it badly enough, they will work for it, and they will make it happen. When you've got a talented kid that wants it like that, they often wind up basically unbeatable. Look at Margie Engle.

Margie is of a different era, it is a drastically different landscape now in both H/J and Eventing and as Wynn has said a lot of it is a shift in values in this country.

[poltroon]

Although it's fun to bash hunters, of the Team we sent, only Karen O'Connor has a hunter/jumper background.

[HotIITrot]

First of all, I can’t start a post right now without sending congrats out to Gina for a fabulous performance in Hong Kong. Whether or not she won a medal she did a fantastic job, but I am so glad that she did end up with one!

It’s a shame Connaught, who is an incredible horse and athlete, didn’t perform as we had hoped. They were still a good combination to represent our county.

There is no doubt in my mind that Becky should have been there because her and Comet are so deserving of that honor! Sucks they had a stop, but mistakes happen. I was still glad to see them there; they were really fun to follow.

Flame Suit On:

Yes, hindsight is 20/20, but this really bothered me.

It seemed to me, & I could be wrong, but … I just felt like Amy was selected over a year ago (Politics) & unless they had some disastrous outing or an injury they were going to Hong Kong. Not that Poggio didn’t deserve to be there, because I think he is an incredible horse & a good one to represent us (as he has done in the past); and not that I have any personal problems with Amy, but after what happened with her last year & after everything that has happened to our sport this year I don’t think her being selected to the team was a wise decision. Thank Goodness nothing catastrophic happened, but could you imagine!!!! That was an unnecessary risk to the sport and to the US. I know a thread was brought up before the Olympics on what people thought about her being selected & I didn’t bother to post my opinion at the time b/c quite frankly it wouldn’t have changed anything & I was hoping for the best (I do think they are a great pair though, despite their problems at the Olympics). And I dare say I wasn’t the only one watching the Olympics this year in fear (not just b/c what if something happens to Amy or Poggio, but b/c the course was so technical & fast [what if something happens to anybody!]); I was really worried.

However, the more I think about it, the more disappointed I am that she was selected. The fact is, how can you possibly give your horse 100% when you are at the Olympics and there are people who don’t want you to be there? Think about it, whether people stated it here on the COTH or not, there were people who were not happy she was going to the Olympics and representing their country. Heck, I’m sure there were people from other countries who weren’t happy she was going. Her being selected seemed like a bad decision from a risk stand point & because she could have very well not been prepared mentally for the task at hand.

Poor Heidi and Northern Spy, they would have been wonderful to watch and they both deserved the glory!

I have to say though, I was disappointed that Karen was the one selected to take her place on such an inexperienced horse. Yes things could have gone one way or the other, and they ended up not doing so well. Oh well, that sucks, but the thing that really concerned me is very similar to something that Amy could have gone through. Not being prepared for the Olympics mentally. She lost Teddy for crying out loud, and she was devastated!!!!! Who wouldn’t be! Again, I’m not sure how somebody can be there 100% when they could be thinking in the back of their minds, ‘I should/could have been here with Theodoreable’.

Another thing that really gets me is the fact that both Amy and Karen have represented our country numerous times, including the Olympics. Considering the circumstances it seems selfish not to hand that privilege to someone else that is just as deserving.

[Trixie]

Margie is of a different era, it is a drastically different landscape now in both H/J and Eventing and as Wynn has said a lot of it is a shift in values in this country.

I stand by what I said. If the child doesn't HAVE the "values" that make them willing to work for what they want, well, that's unfortunate, and therefore, they won't be. I just can't see it as a huge concern - kid doesn't want to work hard to be a top level rider, kid isn't a top level rider. Whatever.

But, if a kid wants it bad enough, they will work for it. They will become a working student. They will work to ride and show other people's horses and get to be better and better riders, and as they become better and better riders, opportunities will open. Or, they will work hard to go to a good college, get a good job, and pay for their riding that way.

Will it be as EASY as if they were well funded? No, but cry me a river. A child truly willing to put in the "sweat equity" will be just fine.

Just as many "well-funded" kids quit riding as those without money.

[Tiramit]

Well said, Moesha.

As others have stated, bad riding is bad riding no matter the discipline. Same thing goes for bad trainers. Whomever said that one of the U.S.'s biggest issues across all horse sports is the lack of trainer testing and licensing hit the nail on the head. It's a universal problem not unique to hunters. I've seen several junior eventers who couldn't handle a half an hour on a longe line without stirrups - and they started out as eventers without having wasted one minute in a hunter program. My apologies to Pwynn and Lisa, but blaming the many problems with U.S. eventing on the hunter world is bit over the top.

One of the most intriguing post-competition quotes I've read was from the Chronicle's own eventing article:

"Holder said Courageous Comet’s show jumping is still a work in progress, so she wasn’t overly upset to have two rails—at the third fence and at 12A, an in-and-out headed away from the ingate."

That speaks volumes to me considering she's representing the country at the Olympics. She was a first-round draft pick, not an alterate who lucked into the team. Which begs the question, why are we sending someone horse / riders who aren't expected to put in a clean round? That certainly can't be the hunter world's problem!

[EquiSport]

... "Holder said Courageous Comet’s show jumping is still a work in progress, so she wasn’t overly upset to have two rails—at the third fence and at 12A, an in-and-out headed away from the ingate."

That speaks volumes to me considering she's representing the country at the Olympics. She was a first-round draft pick, not an alterate who lucked into the team. Which begs the question, why are we sending someone horse / riders who aren't expected to put in a clean round? That certainly can't be the hunter world's problem!

Because Comet is an outstanding event horse. That doesn't mean outstanding event horses are perfect in all 3 phases. Take Mary King's King William, for example, who was notorious for dropping rails all over the place, but was still selected to represent her country despite his flaws.

[Tiramit]

Silly me, it sure seemed like the medal placings came down to clean show jumping rounds. :winkgrin:

[poltroon]

Margie lived in a place where she could bike to a serious hunter/jumper barn.

How many children are today within biking distance to a quality trainer in any discipline?

There are many things we need to do for our future. None of them are why we didn't contend for a team medal. We won a very nice, extremely impressive silver - with our American program. Gina was first selected for a team (by Mark Phillips! ;) ) in 2002 as a rookie with a young horse, for the World Championships where we had enough slots to take along some individuals.

The world is changing, the sport is changing, our society is changing, and there is much to be done for our future, even if we'd won team and individual gold. Some of it we ARE doing. The instructor certification program is I think a huge step forward - and the program that produced Gina is a strong part of the ICP.

I think the most important part of these Olympics for the future isn't actually the medal or not medal. It's that it was a good competition, where all the horses came home safe. We need more competitions like this, regardless of the winners, or no Americans are going to want to support eventing by allowing their children or their horses to compete. Who wants to breed or own or sponsor a horse or rider who might die competing? No one.

The reality is that all we need every 4 years is 10 kids with a work ethic - and despite all the bellyaching, I think even America can produce that. ;) But we have to get those kids good training, good horses, a network of competitions, and a chance to travel and get experience. And we have to keep supporting our up and comers even after they turn 21 - some of our best riders are turning out to be coming along and making Advanced at 30.

[bambam]

I think there are lots of factors, many of which we cannot change, that are why other countries have more depth and a better record of consistently putting out top riders.
I will blame the hunters too for part of it :) but for a different reason (or at least partially different). In the US, unlike say the UK, the default discipline is not combined training/eventing but hunters. While obviously there are other disciplines in the UK, most riders seem to start in eventing. In the US, this is simply not the case. In many parts of the country, h/j is the default discipline that beginners start with and in the rest, the default is western. I suspect this seriously affects the pool of upper level eventing talent because (1) those early years are not spent doing eventing-specific training (and sorry as someone who did h/j much longer than I have evented, there are different skills called for and changes to ingrained habits/styles are hard to make) and so if they switch, they spend their later years developing those skills and the older you are the harder it is to develop those skills (i.e., easier to learn xc when you are a fearless kid who still bounces), (2) in order to event, these riders have to change disciplines and change to one that is simply less available to the general public and that you have to actively seek out (lots of horsepeople have no idea what eventing is and there are way fewer beginner eventing lesson barns than h/j or western), and (3) due to lack of exposure, many many riders do not know that eventing exists or what it entails and so will make no attempt to switch disciplines- and while obviously our elite h/j pros know about it, by the time they reach that level, they with few exceptions have chosen their discipline and are not likely to change. So our UL eventers are coming from a smaller pool because other disciplines have already claimed most of our riders.
As part of the whole riding culture thing is also the grass roots support for the sport and the quality of LL instruction. From what I know of it, the BHS system is pretty pervasive in the UK, the testing is extensive and the skill emphasis in terms of the riding/teaching component is eventing oriented (those more familiar with it can correct me if I am wrong), and, from what I have seen, LL instruction is simply of a more consistent and better quality in the UK- all of this matters because the LL feeds the top. The UK also provides more financial support to its riders than the US (don't lottery funds go to team coaching and the like?). In Germany, I suspect the difference is also riding culture and the effect of riding and breeding being a state supported endeavor and a strong riding culture for dressage and jumpers. This state support makes it easier to become a professional eventer and support yourself which makes more riders more internationally competitive.
Eventing is not and never will be the dominant discipline in the US and our pool of riders and thus the quality of riders and instructions is inevitably affected. This is not the entire reason why Fritz and Heidi beat Sally and Bill but I think it is part of it.

[magnolia73]

I will blame the hunters too for part of it

Ok. :)

But there is no "evil association of money grubbing hunter trainers" that meet yearly to plan on taking all the riding business in the US. If there is no place for people to start off in eventing, it is the blame of eventing. It is not the blame of hunters. Unless they have crazy mob tactics like threatening to beat up eventers that teach beginners.

And I would think that a beginner eventing program could really be popular. I think kids would enjoy it very much to learn XC. There was the photo of the young boy doing leadline XC a few weeks ago! That needs to happen all over.

[Moesha]

Bambam I do understand what you are saying but like Magnolia says it is up to eventing or eventing barns to roll with the needs and times so to speak.....if eventing sees itself in future peril than look to ways to encourage riders to start from the beginning there....eventers ( and this is a generalization) like to pride themselves on self sufficiency and roll their eyes at the what they see as hand holding over coaching in the hunter world...ok..but look at what sport has the most inovolved in it and is thriving ( not that eventing is not thriving) but honestly you have to find a middle ground...maybe this do it yourself attitude has opened a gap that english hunt lesson programs are filling...when parents are non horesey and their children want to ride...the typical eventing barn or boarding barn with eventers...is not going to a be a place for them to go....

I started off with at an eventing barn...I was learning to jump water and coffins before I had ever set foot over a 2' pony hunter round at a local show...so I think that made me bolder..or maybe crazier ;) then some of my friends when it came to riding..but I still feel there are programs out there like this...where you learn it all and showing just happens to be ther preference...I think disciplines can co-exisit very well....in reality they really do lend to each other..not the overstylized..but not the cowboy out of control either...a true horsemanship balance in riding well and always learning.

In some ways the enlightened intellectuals of Plato's allegory of the cave would be the ideal we all seek in the leaders of the horse world, no special interest, elitism, favorites, money , b ut true teaching and learning without prejudice or biased slants. If we had people who called a spade a spade and learned to admit mistakes, shortcomins, while being honest and striving for better ways...we would be set as an overall community.

I think there are many common threads here, we just are coming at differnet angles and with different interpretations. good horsemanship will always be good horsemamship and honesty and and open mind are two of the vital keys to that.

[LisaB]

bambam put it right. Hunters is the default discipline. Heck, one word, default, is what I'm getting at. And sorry, put the majority of the hunter barns, at least around here, teach that perchy, hammer hands, wiggle butt crap that can't be transcended even to jumpers.
Not 'blaming' the hunter world. It's just that seems to be the available choice for beginners. Would LOVE to see some beginning event trainers here. I know Mellsmom is doing that in Richmond.
And trixie, dead wrong about that foxhunter. Let me clarify. He wouldn't hurt a fly, much less even think of a buck and that rider was so bad that he bucked him off. Get it?
And look at our young riders. Rarely do you see a kid out there who produced that horse. Or even brought that horse from training level to the * or **. Granted, they have a time limit and if they want to reach the goal, they minimize the risks. But they then don't back it up with possible greenies or tough horses. Heck, they aren't even out there doing a hunter round or a jumper show or hunting. Nope, strictly all about eventing.
And I've seen the a circuit. Those kids don't even know how to love on their horse. They hop on, do a round, hop off and hand the horse to their Mexican. Don't you dare tell me otherwise either. That's seemed to be very pervasive down there in W. Palm.

[pwynnnorman]

I am going to give up on trying to keep Magnolia et al from twisting my statements into irrelevancies as though I can only argue from some narrow perspective based on what I have or have produced (when, as I said, I was repeating what quite a few BNTs have said in print often--and have been deeply involved in the industry for 30 years without my head in the sand about it, like some).

And, Tiramit, I have written not one word "blaming" hunters. MY point emphasized the word "seeping"--remember that? MY point remains a cultural one, here, not discipline bashing (although I'd love to get into the "you can't even trot your corners any more" issue in young hunters to prove another point about where we've gotten to, what it's done to horsemanship and horses, and the overall impact of who can and who cannot strive for the top and on what horse...but I won't since I suspect it'd just go right over more than a few, tunnelvisioned, "you argue that way because you have this or that" heads, alas).

I stand by what I said. If the child doesn't HAVE the "values" that make them willing to work for what they want, well, that's unfortunate, and therefore, they won't be. I just can't see it as a huge concern - kid doesn't want to work hard to be a top level rider, kid isn't a top level rider. Whatever.

Will it be as EASY as if they were well funded? No, but cry me a river. A child truly willing to put in the "sweat equity" will be just fine.

Just as many "well-funded" kids quit riding as those without money.

Trixie, I wish that were reality, but there's more proof that it isn't than that it is. Here's why: Kid's without at least some connection (through location, pony club, a friend, a relative) are totally lost to the system no matter how hard they are willing to work. A kid can't leave school, a poor kid's parents can't leave work to drive them somewhere to be a working student, and "where" that somewhere is these days, increasingly, can't develop the good kids they way they used to because they're too busy catering to the ones who pay for their time.

AGAIN! That isn't say it NEVER happens! I had the equivalent of a working student who is now steadily working her way up and becoming not only talented and even sought-after by being a VERY hard-working student of an active, upper level rider. But she's home schooled, I connected her to the rider, and her Mom was a highly competitive rider in her youth (not o/f, but on an all-rounder Appy in a lot of other disciplines) and remains very supportive and involved.

Folks, who was the last young person you met who made it to the top the idealized way Trixie has described???? I can tell you who should have, almost has and maybe someday will again: Christan Trainor--but that was more than a decade ago and in the end, she couldn't get the follow-through support to sustain it (support which often comes from parents or others with $$$ to back up the young rider when things get rough).

And, gosh, we haven't even gotten into access to facilities and worries about liability and all those other complications which are increasingly preventing the non-paying working student (because a lot of working students do PAY these days--that stall has to be earning money!) from climbing the ladder.

Alas, I wish it were different, but really: When WAS the last time a rider came up through the ranks that way? No, it may not be impossible, but the fact is that it is increasinly rare. And what does that mean? How does that connect to these issues (that is it becoming increasingly rare for a rider without significant $$$ support to get there through just plain ol' hard work and perseverence)?

[pwynnnorman]

Oh, Oh! How could I miss the perfect example of what I mean?

Free rides.

Try finding (anywhere) some kid (or even adult) to take the ride on a talented, ready to compete animal without having to pay them these days? Trixie, again, I wish you were right, but if those kids were out there, why can't we find them to ride for us? (And a LOT of "us" are looking, BTW.) We can't find them because they can't afford to get to us--they have to work for $$$ these days.

Gone are the days when someone could work for nothing, I fear. Even if that time spent not getting paid could get them ahead. They KNOW it could (get them ahead), but they can't afford to let it! :no: Life is just too expensive, sadly, even for the young.

[Jealoushe]

Because Comet is an outstanding event horse. That doesn't mean outstanding event horses are perfect in all 3 phases. Take Mary King's King William, for example, who was notorious for dropping rails all over the place, but was still selected to represent her country despite his flaws.

His dressage and cross made up for it though..

[bambam]

Bambam I do understand what you are saying but like Magnolia says it is up to eventing or eventing barns to roll with the needs and times so to speak.....if eventing sees itself in future peril than look to ways to encourage riders to start from the beginning there.....
I simply gave some of the reasons that I think eventing is not proudcing consistency and depth in its UL eventers competing internationally- I was not wringing my hands saying, oh dear these hunters won't let us increase our LL base and the sport is in peril because of it (if we are in peril, that is not why). I described what I think is the current riding culture in this country and why I think that affects our UL competitiveness- that and the sport being in peril do not necessarily follow one another.
Can eventing increase its exposure and the number of LL barns? Sure but frankly given how much trouble eventing is having handling the past decade's increase in ridership, I am not sure that is something we should want to do right now. And an increase in number without an increase in the quality in LL instruction is not going to help anybody. And finally, any increase in LL event lesson barns is not going to change the long entrenched riding culture in the US defaulting to hunters and western at anything less than a glacial pace that does not change the default US disciplines in my lifetime. I do not necessarily think this is a bad thing because there are ramifications to that kind of culture change that I am not sure I would like.

[Moesha]

I do the jumpers but obviously am at barns where hunters are as well..........but I must be lucky to not be around these types of trainers and training methods that are being discussed...I feel badly that the majority of examples that people here are surrounded by are teaching such strange riding habits...being perched is a bad thing...being forward and balanced is something entirely different....so I'm not sure how this is relevant to eventing...but if people are convinced it is, there is not much to change their minds...

As far as hunters being the default.......I again say calling the standard english riding lesson program a hunter show program is wrong...and frankly the u.s style of hunter is relatively a new thing even here...compared to how equestrian sports have evolved.

As far as riders getting to the top with only talent....unfortuantely ALL sports and ALL areas of life require help,sponsors, money, opportunites, etc....so that is nothing new to horses...but again it is a cake and eat it to scenario...........we want to be the best and have the best which means those with the best horses and best training...but we also want to have ways to encourage people to have opportunites....I agree but this WHOLE thread's premise is about "WINNING"....so how does anyone balance such oposite desires?? how do you abandon the status quo while giving others a chance and still satisfying the desire to win??

There is no misunderstanding...as far as I see it on this thread people are making some gross generalizations and there is definitely animosity and blame being laid on the h/j world...I'm not attacking anyone over that...but that is the fact of the statments being made..and the end result is disciplines with so much concern about how their future riders are coached from the beginning need to make available that coaching...and do something to fix that themselves....saying that these "hunter" barns are producing such bad riders...is not only a false generalization but completely unfair and shucking one's own responsibility...so now are we going to start blaming hunter training on these horrible falls we have seen? Where does one draw the line?? I have seen adults start riding late in life and work so hard and prove wrong the learning and age curve findings....so if people want to learn and their is a system..which lets face it for the international level and those with the means and avenue to do so their is they need to work in the best system they can find and that has nothing to do with where they took some up/down lessons.

[Robby Johnson]

And I know some of you say that Kim's horse is too inexperienced, but then how do you explain Mandiba? Tipperary Liadhnan not only completed a 4*, but placed in the top 5 to boot. And still didn't make even the alternate list? Yet a horse with absolutely no 4* experience gets sent instead?

This continues to baffle me as well.

[Trixie]

Bambam… so... you're saying the existence and prevalence of HJ barns is the reason that eventing doesn't have more good riders?


And I've seen the a circuit. Those kids don't even know how to love on their horse. They hop on, do a round, hop off and hand the horse to their Mexican. Don't you dare tell me otherwise either. That's seemed to be very pervasive down there in W. Palm.

I think a statement like that is a rather offensive generalization. I showed the “A” circuit for years as a child and loved my ponies more than anything in the world. Are there children that don’t? Sure. But I can tell you that even now, as I watch my trainer bring the pony kids up through the ranks at the “A” shows, he stresses to them that it’s the PONY that comes first and to always and completely reward and take care of the pony. I’m sorry you didn’t see those experiences. However, “not loving on the pony” is NOT hunter specific. And even if it were – how is it affecting you? The ponies are well cared for, and the children are having a good time. Nice use of “their Mexican,” btw. I’m very sorry if you saw someone refer to anyone so crudely. I’m also sorry it seems like you’ve only seen the poorest examples of hunters and that industry.

However, I refuse to believe that all the ills of this industry fall on the back of one discipline. Perhaps blame riders who don’t wish to learn to ride correctly or improve, or trainers who don’t teach correctly.

Pwynn, in a lot of that you’re absolutely right. It’s exceedingly difficult for a young rider without financial backing to make it these days. EXCEEDINGLY. But not impossible. And there needs to be some level of “realistic” in their goals – obviously, not everyone can be an Olympian. But there’s no reason that a talented kid that really wants it CAN’T make it as a reputable trainer or rider. If someone truly wants horses in their life, they will find a way. Might take them a bit longer, but it will get there, one way or another.

I have a friend who wanted nothing to do but ride. She learned a trade that introduces her to people in the horse industry, and moved to an area where she could meet them. As it happens so far, she’s picked up quite a few rides just by meeting people in her trade, and the trade paid her bills as she worked her way up. Her goal wasn’t to be a BNR; it was to be immersed in “this world.” One does need to learn to market oneself if one’s goal is to “make it in the industry,” and one does need to be realistic. One doesn’t get into medical school if one doesn’t finish high school, likewise.


and the end result is disciplines with so much concern about how their future riders are coached from the beginning need to make available that coaching.

Extremely well said.

[Sannois]

bambam put it right. Hunters is the default discipline. Heck, one word, default, is what I'm getting at. And sorry, put the majority of the hunter barns, at least around here, teach that perchy, hammer hands, wiggle butt crap that can't be transcended even to jumpers.
Not 'blaming' the hunter world. It's just that seems to be the available choice for beginners. Would LOVE to see some beginning event trainers here. I know Mellsmom is doing that in Richmond.
And trixie, dead wrong about that foxhunter. Let me clarify. He wouldn't hurt a fly, much less even think of a buck and that rider was so bad that he bucked him off. Get it?
And look at our young riders. Rarely do you see a kid out there who produced that horse. Or even brought that horse from training level to the * or **. Granted, they have a time limit and if they want to reach the goal, they minimize the risks. But they then don't back it up with possible greenies or tough horses. Heck, they aren't even out there doing a hunter round or a jumper show or hunting. Nope, strictly all about eventing.
And I've seen the a circuit. Those kids don't even know how to love on their horse. They hop on, do a round, hop off and hand the horse to their Mexican. Don't you dare tell me otherwise either. That's seemed to be very pervasive down there in W. Palm.
here in my part of michigan.
Trying to undo that is So frustrating.
:no:

[Trixie]

Who is this magic "they"? Why do I not encounter it everywhere I go, if that's the case?

[Tiramit]

And, Tiramit, I have written not one word "blaming" hunters. MY point emphasized the word "seeping"--remember that? MY point remains a cultural one, here, not discipline bashing (although I'd love to get into the "you can't even trot your corners any more" issue in young hunters to prove another point about where we've gotten to, what it's done to horsemanship and horses, and the overall impact of who can and who cannot strive for the top and on what horse...but I won't since I suspect it'd just go right over more than a few, tunnelvisioned, "you argue that way because you have this or that" heads, alas).

Pwynn, my apologies for ruffling your feathers and lumping you and LisaB in the same sentence. I'm not going to wade through all of the posts to find a specific example, but Lisa's comments seem to to place a lot of eventing's current problems on the shoulders of the hunter world.

While not a hunter rider since aging out years ago (jumpers now), I do take offense to the universal image that hunter riders lack a horsemanship background and ride with a funky perch / release. Frankly, that's not true. Using myself as an example, I spent 6 months learning flat work and working without stirrups on the longe before attempting my first cross rail. Dressage was an integral part of my training. I spent years working up the ranks, showing some nice, some not so nice horses and have lost count of the number of greenies and OTTBs I taught to hack 'civilized-like' and hopped over their first fences & courses and eventually rode in their first shows. I always had at least one greenie that I worked myself as a junior, and all of my horses since have been self-made. I do not perch or wiggle my arse - and I never did! I use an auto release. Many of the juniors around me had similar programs. I'm in my mid 30's if it helps.

Not all hunter training programs spew out automatrons in breeches. Sure programs like that exist, but it would be hard to say it's a majority rule. What's odd about this discussion is that the majority of hunter juniors I know do at least school green horses. Many have green projects or take on trainer projects. It's fairly common - at least in my circle. The better juniors are often tapped to show green ponies or junior horses and often work them at home. Some of those are free rides. And we seem to have a very decent junior to professional program allowing us to groom riders all the way up to the Olympic level.

Looking at our current show jumping team, all were once junior hunter riders who moved up the ranks. Not to put in a dig, but the U.S. didn't have to import any of our riders for the Olympics either - actually, Germany took one from us! Our hunter program must not be all bad! :lol:

[magnolia73]

Pwynn- I feel your frustration. And perhaps I read too much into your lead change complaint. I think the biggest problem is that riding horses is becoming an expensive endeavour. Period. Eventing. Western. Saddleseat. Hunters. And it is not the fault of any one discipline. It is the result of land use policy. The result of fuel costs. Insurance. Land values. Medical care for horses. Farrier work. The costs of a trainers health insurance. Couple that with an exceedingly bizarre generation Y that has 546 activities a week. Parents who don't allow criticism. Parents who sue. Parents teach their kids that they can do no wrong.

It leads to a few too many Laines and snotty pony brats. And it does make it so hard for Trixies hard worker with limited resources. The good thing is that we continue to produce talented, hardworking kids with the resources to move up. Charlie Jayne- almost made the showjumping team. People like Christian Trainor.

I actually think the hunter/eq route is not a bad thing for eventing to emulate (but with eventer style and skill). The horsemanship clinic at WEF. The instilling of accuracy via the Eq division being mastered before jumpers. The big barns like Heritage where juniors can come together and train together. I'm not saying it is all perfect- and perhaps it is just a substitute for pony club, but perhaps in a format more suited to today's kids.

[dogchushu]

I want to add that Trixie, Rugbug, and a few other primarily hunter riders have all crossed over into eventing on occasion and been quite successful. So the belief that you need years of work to overcome hunter riding training in order to ride eventers is false. Perhaps a few of you have had that experience, but it's not the case for everyone.

Is it the case that some talented riders choose hunters rather than eventing? Perhaps. But I doubt you can say hunters is sucking up all the talent! Isn't the eventing population growing in the U.S.?

Frankly, I don't think the U.S. performance in this one Olympics is a sign that eventing is in trouble. You'd have to wait and see if it becomes a trend. Any team, no matter how talented, can have a bad day.

Perhaps it's because I'm not an eventer and don't remember the years when the U.S. dominated, but I didn't have high expectations going into this years' olympics. We lost a couple of our top horses, so I thought it would be an experience building year, not one in which we would expect top medals.

[LisaB]

Look, if you don't realize the problems, then how are you going to fix them? We, the us riders, are not raised the same as the rest of the world. We are different. Our default is either western or hunters. And that's where most of the riders stay.
So, we need to have beginner trainers for dressage, jumpers, and eventers. Agreed?
And please, you still can't tell me there's isn't a humongous difference in the riding between the uber-a circuit of hunters and the other 90% of the hunter circuit. I've seen it. Really!
And the barn where I was observing the kids at W. Palm was Frank Madden's barn (tent). I'm trying to point out that while good riders that put in really pretty rounds, they don't know crap about how to take care of a horse. And when talking to kids and moms, that was just a given. It was allowed to happen and accepted. Sure, they are lots of kids in that world that are wonderful people but there are lots more that use it as a social tool. Don't take personal offense. It was a general scene that I observed. I've seen some riders school x-c and they put most everyone to shame with how easily they did everything.
And I'm not laying the blame on the hunter world! Jeez! I'm just saying that's where most of us start and it's the wrong hunter stuff! If the trainer is any good, they charge a fortune and most kids starting out don't have that kind of money. Good for the trainers. They need to make money, sure. But why oh why do the local hunter trainers teach so incorrectly? And it seems to be generational. And they have this incredible mindset that dressage is pure evil. I can't tell you how many friends that I have where I try to change that mindset. It still floors me.
Anyway, I know of 2 really great kids here that should really make it in the world. One is a friend of mine's. The friend is an eventer and her kid kicks ass. They have the horses at home and kid just soaks everything up. The other started in the hunter world and switched. Mom is really really smart and really does her homework to find instructor, pony (now shopping for horse), etc. Mom really cares about kid's future in the horse world. It would be interesting to see how they pan out.

[Sannois]

Who is this magic "they"? Why do I not encounter it everywhere I go, if that's the case?

And attend some of the B and c circuit shows.
I have long said Michigan is in a class by itself. :eek:
Some of the people that call themselves trainers are not to be believed.
The sad thing is the results on there students. :no:

[Sannois]

Look, if you don't realize the problems, then how are you going to fix them? We, the us riders, are not raised the same as the rest of the world. We are different. Our default is either western or hunters. And that's where most of the riders stay.
So, we need to have beginner trainers for dressage, jumpers, and eventers. Agreed?
And please, you still can't tell me there's isn't a humongous difference in the riding between the uber-a circuit of hunters and the other 90% of the hunter circuit. I've seen it. Really!
And the barn where I was observing the kids at W. Palm was Frank Madden's barn (tent). I'm trying to point out that while good riders that put in really pretty rounds, they don't know crap about how to take care of a horse. And when talking to kids and moms, that was just a given. It was allowed to happen and accepted. Sure, they are lots of kids in that world that are wonderful people but there are lots more that use it as a social tool. Don't take personal offense. It was a general scene that I observed. I've seen some riders school x-c and they put most everyone to shame with how easily they did everything.
And I'm not laying the blame on the hunter world! Jeez! I'm just saying that's where most of us start and it's the wrong hunter stuff! If the trainer is any good, they charge a fortune and most kids starting out don't have that kind of money. Good for the trainers. They need to make money, sure. But why oh why do the local hunter trainers teach so incorrectly? And it seems to be generational. And they have this incredible mindset that dressage is pure evil. I can't tell you how many friends that I have where I try to change that mindset. It still floors me.
Anyway, I know of 2 really great kids here that should really make it in the world. One is a friend of mine's. The friend is an eventer and her kid kicks ass. They have the horses at home and kid just soaks everything up. The other started in the hunter world and switched. Mom is really really smart and really does her homework to find instructor, pony (now shopping for horse), etc. Mom really cares about kid's future in the horse world. It would be interesting to see how they pan out.

Right on Lisa B!!!;):yes::yes::yes:

[magnolia73]

I think that there are perhaps 2 issues. One is getting better instruction standards for newcomers. I agree- there are many trainers that are a joke in all disciplines. I think it will be hard to change due to uneducated consumers. Parents don't always get it.

I think part of the other problem is the timeline for developing our top athletes. I think that many feel that to be a team member or at the top of the sport, that at 21 they need to actually be at the top. And getting to advanced, grand prix jumpers etc. is not necessarily doable in so short of time. It seems like to get the experience of running/riding at the top, they need to be buying the really nice partners. And in doing so, missing out on picking up some skills. This is not gymnastics. Between 10 and 20 is 10 years. 10 years to learn. And you have 10 years between 20 and 30 to learn.

Some really dynamic riders can pull that off, but most can't. But they try and fail. How much better would these riders develop if it took 20 years to get to advanced vs 10? I think the problem is not so much the first 10 years, but the second 10 years- and the second 10 years is where we lose the talent to money issues etc. etc. There are scads of talented 20 somethings with horsemanship and skills without a chance in hell to afford and support an advanced horse.

[LisaB]

Good one Magnolia.
Okay, but we got down the path of training, training, training.
But but but
What about the Australians? They supposedly train with trainers very little. Just spotty at best. And when they come on to the world scene, boy, you better watch out. Look at Boyd that came here. He's been eating us alive and when he gets an experienced ****, he'll be hard to beat in 2012.
Is it the open land issue? Folks out west don't have that problem though. But they still have tons of homework when they bid for Rolex. They don't just come out, kill the rest of us and go home. They generally wind up over here for a period of time training with BNT's and such. It seems that the Australians do just that. They are out in the wilds, avoiding the most poisonous creatures on the planet, come do an event, get great scores, then go home. And then they travel 5+ hours to get a lesson here and there.
Okay, what's their magic?

[Moesha]

Look, if you don't realize the problems, then how are you going to fix them? We, the us riders, are not raised the same as the rest of the world. We are different. Our default is either western or hunters. And that's where most of the riders stay.
So, we need to have beginner trainers for dressage, jumpers, and eventers. Agreed?
And please, you still can't tell me there's isn't a humongous difference in the riding between the uber-a circuit of hunters and the other 90% of the hunter circuit. I've seen it. Really!
And the barn where I was observing the kids at W. Palm was Frank Madden's barn (tent). I'm trying to point out that while good riders that put in really pretty rounds, they don't know crap about how to take care of a horse. And when talking to kids and moms, that was just a given. It was allowed to happen and accepted. Sure, they are lots of kids in that world that are wonderful people but there are lots more that use it as a social tool. Don't take personal offense. It was a general scene that I observed. I've seen some riders school x-c and they put most everyone to shame with how easily they did everything.
And I'm not laying the blame on the hunter world! Jeez! I'm just saying that's where most of us start and it's the wrong hunter stuff! If the trainer is any good, they charge a fortune and most kids starting out don't have that kind of money. Good for the trainers. They need to make money, sure. But why oh why do the local hunter trainers teach so incorrectly? And it seems to be generational. And they have this incredible mindset that dressage is pure evil. I can't tell you how many friends that I have where I try to change that mindset. It still floors me.
Anyway, I know of 2 really great kids here that should really make it in the world. One is a friend of mine's. The friend is an eventer and her kid kicks ass. They have the horses at home and kid just soaks everything up. The other started in the hunter world and switched. Mom is really really smart and really does her homework to find instructor, pony (now shopping for horse), etc. Mom really cares about kid's future in the horse world. It would be interesting to see how they pan out.

But see I feel an unfairneess in your remarks...please don't take that as personally as it seems but you say the "kids put in good rounds but couldn't take care of their horses..." yet then go on to rave about event riders you use as examples and how these"kids are at home soaking it up" and even that the mother is involved so much learning as well....to me there is a prejudice towards the hunters....that is premeating in this thread...I could give you more personal examples of the later...hunter/jumper kids who "soak" everything up...who are at the barn 6 days a week working really hard...who know how to take care of their horses and who show and win at the A shows...and then event riders who refuse to be open minded, who have attitude and chips on their shoulders and don't take responsibility for things and want to lay blame on someone or something else, warmbloods, hunter princesses, biased judges, money, etc. But to me none of this is relevant to the fact one has to take responsibility when setting off on goals....It seems counterproductive and the wrong energy to say..."I have trouble with this because...I started off in the hunter world?" Well If I were coaching a person who constantly had things like that to say I would have to start saying "That's nice now please stop talking and get it done." There is a point where you just do it and let your confidence take you through your mistakes without trying to justify them.

[Moesha]

Good one Magnolia.
Okay, but we got down the path of training, training, training.
But but but
What about the Australians? They supposedly train with trainers very little. Just spotty at best. And when they come on to the world scene, boy, you better watch out. Look at Boyd that came here. He's been eating us alive and when he gets an experienced ****, he'll be hard to beat in 2012.
Is it the open land issue? Folks out west don't have that problem though. But they still have tons of homework when they bid for Rolex. They don't just come out, kill the rest of us and go home. They generally wind up over here for a period of time training with BNT's and such. It seems that the Australians do just that. They are out in the wilds, avoiding the most poisonous creatures on the planet, come do an event, get great scores, then go home. And then they travel 5+ hours to get a lesson here and there.
Okay, what's their magic?

Boyd has some great rides, here, though...... but Do these other countries have something in the horses they use...that they looks for or know they need when the come here? Are they doing things and have attitudes towards training that we don't??

How do we know the situations of other riders...

Germany is a great example they dominate ALL DISCIPLINES.............they are certainly saturated with top trainers and have access to the best of Europe.........The English with their eventing and show jumping stars....what are some of these multidisciplined countries doing??

[magnolia73]

Okay, but we got down the path of training, training, training.

I don't think it needs to be focused training, but assuring the lifestyle. Allowing for young riders to develop horses without stressing about going broke or timelines. Letting them make the living, so to speak. Get the saddle time. Hours and hours of saddle time. Learning to be independent and making mistakes and recovering from them. Riding and training a ton of horses. Of course with regular training. Being working students.

And set the expectation that future team members come from the kid who spent 18 to 24 being a working student and plugging along and gaining experience vs the kid who at 18 bought a $100,000 advanced packer. I don't think the problem is the 10 year old envious of the 9 year old with a packer. It's the 21 year old with no financing feeling that there is no way to get there without winning the lottery.

[Moesha]

I don't think it needs to be focused training, but assuring the lifestyle. Allowing for young riders to develop horses without stressing about going broke or timelines. Letting them make the living, so to speak. Get the saddle time. Hours and hours of saddle time. Learning to be independent and making mistakes and recovering from them. Riding and training a ton of horses. Of course with regular training. Being working students.

And set the expectation that future team members come from the kid who spent 18 to 24 being a working student and plugging along and gaining experience vs the kid who at 18 bought a $100,000 advanced packer. I don't think the problem is the 10 year old envious of the 9 year old with a packer. It's the 21 year old with no financing feeling that there is no way to get there without winning the lottery.

I agree 100%....it is hard to focus on being the best....when you have to worry about eating and having a roof over your head....

but if the kid with the packer win...and the kid with the so so horse has worked "harder" who do you put on a developing riders team...or a team at all??

[Trixie]

And please, you still can't tell me there's isn't a humongous difference in the riding between the uber-a circuit of hunters and the other 90% of the hunter circuit. I've seen it. Really!
And the barn where I was observing the kids at W. Palm was Frank Madden's barn (tent). I'm trying to point out that while good riders that put in really pretty rounds, they don't know crap about how to take care of a horse. And when talking to kids and moms, that was just a given. It was allowed to happen and accepted. Sure, they are lots of kids in that world that are wonderful people but there are lots more that use it as a social tool. Don't take personal offense. It was a general scene that I observed. I've seen some riders school x-c and they put most everyone to shame with how easily they did everything.
And I'm not laying the blame on the hunter world! Jeez! I'm just saying that's where most of us start and it's the wrong hunter stuff!

See, but what you said was:

And I've seen the a circuit. Those kids don't even know how to love on their horse.

And YES, I find that offensive.

[bambam]

Moesha- I cannot figure out if your comments are not directed at my post or you are completely missing what I am saying :confused:
First- I don't know where you live but in every area I have lived in, h/j or western have been the overwhlemingly dominant disciplines. I really don't see how you can say that h/j is not the most prevalent english discipline in the US. Just compare membership numbers for those that compete and that will give you an idea of how many more people do h/j. It is the default english discipline in the US.
My point (in this respect, my post did raise other issues) is simply one of numbers. There is a limited number of people who are interested in horses and ride. When you take 90% (I am making up a percentage here but I suspect it is even higher) of that finite pool of people and this 90% is participating in disciplines other than eventing, it obviously cuts the pool of people available and thus the number of talented people with the drive and ability to compete internationally. So the fact that h/j is the dominant english discipline in the US affects the depth/number of eventing participants. If you look at the UK, I suspect 90% of those who ride, event and the BE numbers show that more people event in the UK than in the US- thus a deeper pool of riders and more depth to their elite roster, as well as a riding culture that begins teaching the core concepts of eventing from day 1 of learning to ride.
And for people who switch disciplines, you cannot simply go from the A circuit to UL eventing. There is a very different skill set needed and a substantial amount of time to develop it- there is some overlap in jumping skills but I do not know of a single person who went from h/j to eventing that did not have to spend a LOT of time developing new skills and changing aspects of their riding and since many eventers started out as hunter/jumpers, this is a good number of eventers. Can I go from the a circuit to BN in a relatively short period of time? sure but we are talking about UL eventing here and that is a long long road to hoe.
When I said I "blame" hunters, I was kidding for heaven's sake (thought that was clear).

[Moesha]

Moesha- I cannot figure out if your comments are not directed at my post or you are completely missing what I am saying :confused:
First- I don't know where you live but in every area I have lived in, h/j or western have been the overwhlemingly dominant disciplines. I really don't see how you can say that h/j is not the most prevalent english discipline in the US. Just compare membership numbers for those that compete and that will give you an idea of how many more people do h/j. It is the default english discipline in the US.
My point (in this respect, my post did raise other issues) is simply one of numbers. There is a limited number of people who are interested in horses and ride. When you take 90% (I am making up a percentage here but I suspect it is even higher) of that finite pool of people and this 90% is participating in disciplines other than eventing, it obviously cuts the pool of people available and thus the number of talented people with the drive and ability to compete internationally. So the fact that h/j is the dominant english discipline in the US affects the depth/number of eventing participants. If you look at the UK, I suspect 90% of those who ride, event and the BE numbers show that more people event in the UK than in the US- thus a deeper pool of riders and more depth to their elite roster, as well as a riding culture that begins teaching the core concepts of eventing from day 1 of learning to ride.
And for people who switch disciplines, you cannot simply go from the A circuit to UL eventing. There is a very different skill set needed and a substantial amount of time to develop it- there is some overlap in jumping skills but I do not know of a single person who went from h/j to eventing that did not have to spend a LOT of time developing new skills and changing aspects of their riding and since many eventers started out as hunter/jumpers, this is a good number of eventers. Can I go from the a circuit to BN in a relatively short period of time? sure but we are talking about UL eventing here and that is a long long road to hoe.
When I said I "blame" hunters, I was kidding for heaven's sake (thought that was clear).

Bambam.. I agree that the H/J world probably makes us the majority of competitive riders, at all levels, in the U.S....but I felt that the labeling of lesson barns or large lesson programs as "hunter barns" was misleading, in my experience...certainly many teach a "hunt seat" style but many are a mixture of english riding instruction .....I completley see and understand what you are saying...but there has been an attitude that the h/j world is creating these awful riders and therefore responsible for the lack of the eventers "pool." Also that the h/j world creates non-horseman and skills that are so at odds with eventing they can't be made up later...I'm certainly getting that from a lot of the posts here...


I think eventing needs to reach out to young riders/kids and offer information to them and places for them to start off look how 4-H offers their programs even online...why not reach out to 4-H youth who are learning about vet care, barn management, judging, etc...so much of what makes up the overall horseman that people claim is lacking in the h/j world...barns could offer clinics to 4-h kids, many don't have the "trainers" and would love guidance

http://www.4-hcurriculum.org/projects/horse/



...there are a lot of small events and trials and combined tests in my area and many of these multi-disciplined barns take their people to a variety of places....but business wise the show barn makes it's money and holds it's place by being out there on the circuit....riders come and go it is a never ending business process....so hunter/jumper trainers can't stray from their paths, to develop something that does not yield a return or success for them...that isn't fair to ask...they are teaching what they are teaching and coaching what they are coaching...Chanel doesn't promote Patagonia...but people do wear both... we need to bridge the gap not widen it further

[bambam]

but I felt that the labeling of lesson barns or large lesson programs as "hunter barns" was misleading, in my experience...certainly many teach a "hunt seat" style but many are a mixture of english riding instruction .....I completley see and understand what you are saying...but there has been an attitude that the h/j world is creating these awful riders and therefore responsible for the lack of the eventers "pool." Also that the h/j world creates non-horseman and skills that are so at odds with eventing they can't be made up later...I'm certainly getting that from a lot of the posts here...

Okay- I get your point now
two things I want to respond to
The first are these barns that you don't want to claim as h/j that are teaching huntseat :). I don't think you can disown them as easily as you would like. Are they teaching correct hunters? many of them no but that in and of itself does not mean that they are not h/j barns but they are perhaps bad h/j barns (just as there is bad instruction at eventing barns- and plenty of it). When they advertise, they claim to be h/j, when they go to local shows, it is the local/ c rated h/j shows that they go to, and I see very little of anything other than h/j teaching at these barns (no real dressage, xc, caprilli seat, etc.). You may not like how and what they are teaching but I am not sure you can claim that they simply are not h/j barns. But maybe my experience or the areas where I have been are different than yours. And just to be clear- I am not saying most h/j riders suck, perch or look like praying mantises (or is it manti? wonder what the plural is ;)). I am simply addressing your point and it seems to be saying that because they are not really teaching h/j or correct h/j in your opinion, they should not be counted as h/j and, if this is your point, I disagree.
The second thing I want to address is your statement that a lot of posts are claiming h/j are non-horsemen, etc. There are maybe 2 posters here who have made those sorts of comments in this long thread- if you don't want eventers to over-generalize about h/j, don't do the same to us. I hope you were not including me in that group of a lot of posters- I not said that, I have not meant that and, if you got that from me, you were reading into it something that was not there.

[KSevnter]

I don't think it needs to be focused training, but assuring the lifestyle. Allowing for young riders to develop horses without stressing about going broke or timelines. Letting them make the living, so to speak. Get the saddle time. Hours and hours of saddle time. Learning to be independent and making mistakes and recovering from them. Riding and training a ton of horses. Of course with regular training. Being working students.

And set the expectation that future team members come from the kid who spent 18 to 24 being a working student and plugging along and gaining experience vs the kid who at 18 bought a $100,000 advanced packer. I don't think the problem is the 10 year old envious of the 9 year old with a packer. It's the 21 year old with no financing feeling that there is no way to get there without winning the lottery.

Not to mention that being a working student now requires money. Most BNR will make you pay for either your accomodations and/or your horses (it might be discounted but you still have to pay). Even this route is no longer doable for many.

[poltroon]

And for people who switch disciplines, you cannot simply go from the A circuit to UL eventing. There is a very different skill set needed and a substantial amount of time to develop it- there is some overlap in jumping skills but I do not know of a single person who went from h/j to eventing that did not have to spend a LOT of time developing new skills and changing aspects of their riding and since many eventers started out as hunter/jumpers, this is a good number of eventers. Can I go from the a circuit to BN in a relatively short period of time? sure but we are talking about UL eventing here and that is a long long road to hoe.
When I said I "blame" hunters, I was kidding for heaven's sake (thought that was clear).

To UL eventing? No. But I went on my first xc school within a couple of weeks of signing up with an event trainer, and I had no problems. I was taught by a H/J/E judge and her protoges and we did months and months of no stirrup work. When I was a kid we played Foxfield Drill Team and rode our horses without saddles or bridles. It's true I never had a lunge lesson. ;)

But I was a nobody. I did well in the local medal finals, but I hardly beat the world. A lot of kids in southern California were as good as or better than me. (One of them rides for Germany now. ;) )

Most of the kids who get to the USET medal level get a chance to ride grobs and banks. Any trainer who has access to them will teach his/her students on them.

There are new skills to learn for cross-country and dressage, and more cross-training makes you a better rider, of this I have no doubt. But good training is good training, regardless of discipline, and bad training is bad training, regardless of discipline.

[Moesha]

Okay- I get your point now
two things I want to respond to
The first are these barns that you don't want to claim as h/j that are teaching huntseat :). I don't think you can disown them as easily as you would like. Are they teaching correct hunters? many of them no but that in and of itself does not mean that they are not h/j barns but they are perhaps bad h/j barns (just as there is bad instruction at eventing barns- and plenty of it). When they advertise, they claim to be h/j, when they go to local shows, it is the local/ c rated h/j shows that they go to, and I see very little of anything other than h/j teaching at these barns (no real dressage, xc, caprilli seat, etc.). You may not like how and what they are teaching but I am not sure you can claim that they simply are not h/j barns. But maybe my experience or the areas where I have been are different than yours. And just to be clear- I am not saying most h/j riders suck, perch or look like praying mantises (or is it manti? wonder what the plural is ;)). I am simply addressing your point and it seems to be saying that because they are not really teaching h/j or correct h/j in your opinion, they should not be counted as h/j and, if this is your point, I disagree.
The second thing I want to address is your statement that a lot of posts are claiming h/j are non-horsemen, etc. There are maybe 2 posters here who have made those sorts of comments in this long thread- if you don't want eventers to over-generalize about h/j, don't do the same to us. I hope you were not including me in that group of a lot of posters- I not said that, I have not meant that and, if you got that from me, you were reading into it something that was not there.

Bambam...you are right on both accounts...In my defending the hunter world I was throwing the lesson programs under the bus..in the same way I felt the hunter world was being done by some people on this thread...so that might have come across as elitist and double standard. Regarldess of the type of english riding trying to distance the hunter world from those programs is slapping the face of the base of it all...and not fair or what I intended. I realize that there were only a few voices that were making some harsh generalizations...but it sometimes seems that those voices drone out the others in eventers' views on hunter riders. I have nothing against the posters of those comments I just disagree. I think Poltroon very eloquently stated what a lot of us feel and see that somehow is overlooked by our eventing comrades in regards to our sport.

I do believe the future of all horse sports rests on all of us.....and sticking together and being honest and working through our differences and embracing our commonalities and accepting the variations we all bring to the table.

[RugBug]

Sorry, clarification here. Yup, not the uber-a-rated hunters. They sometimes school x-c and they are truly lovely to watch. I'm talking about the other 90%! There's a huge difference between the a rated and below. Like 2 totally different riding styles. That perching, ass-in-the-air, hammer handed crap is what I'm talking about. And that seems to be very prevalent and catering to the new kids starting to ride. The lessons are affordable but not correct. Why?

I'm going to call bull on this. I'm primarily a hunter/eq rider. so much so that I just skipped a show because I was only going to be able to do the jumpers...and I REALLY don't like jumpers all that much. I've showed two A-rated shows in my life...back in the 80s when I had a trainer who allowed me to groom for her and paid all my fees for me for which I'm eternally grateful. (Thanks, Jill!) All of the showing I do now is at local, non-rated shows or schooling shows. I simply can't afford anything else. I'm the 90% of which you speak.

I dabbled in eventing last year, admittedly the lower levels, but dabbled nonetheless. Not only did I compete in two recognized horse trials and hold my own, but I did so with only 3 outings ever for XC schooling (over fences anyway...I've taken horses out just for fun with no jumping) and no dressage lessons. Sure, it was only BN, but according to you, I shouldn't be able to get around, let alone do it with a modicum of style while placing in one and winning the other. I was headed for Novice but time/money ran out for dabbling and was instead funneled back to hunter-land.


Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Best example is how you cannot get a beast sold at all in the hunter market if it doesn't have a lead change. Why? Because no one has the time, skill or even the INCLINATION to put one on themselves.

Um, no. People won't touch it because if the current owner couldn't teach the horse, it's quite possible the horse just won't do them and why take that risk? Let's take for example, McKinlaigh...who according to local lore has sticky changes. They were the biggest errors in Gina's test, but she was still able to win a silver medal at the Olympics, among all their other accomplishments, despite them (did you see the late change in SJ? I did). You know what McKinlaigh would be in the hunter ring? A horse that you better be able to make land on the correct lead...or a heartbreak on his way to being sold to an eventer or dressage rider.


I'm talking about 3- and 4-year olds. I'm talking about 5-year-olds whose owners (like me) choose to take them slowly because they'll pop a cork if you press them for lead changes u/s.

Buying a young horse with no proven ability to learn changes is a risk. I took that risk and let's just say there were some stressful months when it looked like changes were going to be a very difficult issue. Thankfully, with a VERY broken down step-by-step program and a ton of patience, the horse has an EXCELLENT change one way and a slighlty difficult one the other. He gets away with it, though, because 99% of the time he lands on the lead for which is excellent change would be used. The other change gets rusty unless we are working on landing on the opposite lead or working on it on the flat.

Why in the world would you want to put a tiny little kid on a difficult pony? The older pony jocks are usually perfectly able to handle the difficult ponies...you just don't see it because they either do a nice job or the pony stays home until they can bring it out and hide the difficulties.

And in the grand scheme, why would you buy a difficult horse instead of an easier one? Would you go out and by a car that needed constant repairs over a brand new one that would do its job with no hassle? If you're older, have had the repair-needing cars in your youth, what's so wrong with getting a new, easy to maintain model? Why does it always have to be a struggle?

Don't act like the nice hunters are just easy-peesy. Greatness usually comes with special needs.

[jumpjesterjump]

Bonnie wanted to be there but (see above) Merloch was injured in Quarantine. Kim doesn't have the horse this year (remember it takes horse AND rider) but should be @ WEG and London. Heidi should have been there too, but Spy also injured. Now, having said all that, the riders / horse combo's we DID have are some of the best, just very bad luck for 3 of the 5. Horses and riders both looked very tired. Lets give them all a Hero's welcome when they come home. They went, they put their horses on the line and they tried their damndest. It just wasn't our turn, this time.

What does it take to get qualified for the Olympics? if Kim's horse competed at Rolex and finished well why didn't she get to go? While Mandiba had only done some three stars?

Just curious, thanks!

[RugBug]

However, the more I think about it, the more disappointed I am that she was selected. The fact is, how can you possibly give your horse 100% when you are at the Olympics and there are people who don’t want you to be there?

As someone said earlier, Gina didn't have a whole lot of support. Everyone was going on about how McKinlaigh wasn't the right type of horse. I'm glad she proved them wrong. Why would it be any different for Amy? That team was a huge asset in Athens. HUGE. And people praised her for it. But then Rolex 2007 and she's now a detriment and undeserving? Fickle, fickle public.

[RugBug]

Hunters is the default discipline. Heck, one word, default, is what I'm getting at. And sorry, put the majority of the hunter barns, at least around here, teach that perchy, hammer hands, wiggle butt crap that can't be transcended even to jumpers.

Quick, someone call Lucinda Fredericks and tell her that her loose leg, and extreme duck are wanted back in the hunter ring. :)

[Tiramit]

...to me there is a prejudice towards the hunters....that is premeating in this thread...I could give you more personal examples of the later...hunter/jumper kids who "soak" everything up...who are at the barn 6 days a week working really hard...who know how to take care of their horses and who show and win at the A shows...and then event riders who refuse to be open minded, who have attitude and chips on their shoulders and don't take responsibility for things and want to lay blame on someone or something else, warmbloods, hunter princesses, biased judges, money, etc. But to me none of this is relevant to the fact one has to take responsibility when setting off on goals....


:winkgrin:

[magnolia73]

Didn't Kim Severson start as a hunter rider?

[Donnalynn]

Someone asked about what is different in some of the other countries like Australia, UK, other European nations.

Well, if you have a fall there, you just get on down to the national health care, get yourself fixed and drive everybody around you crazy until you can get back in the tack.

Here, not so much.

[jumpjesterjump]

kim had her start in dressage, hence the reason she can kick some serious a** in the dressage phase.

[Sannois]

Okay- I get your point now
two things I want to respond to
The first are these barns that you don't want to claim as h/j that are teaching huntseat :). I don't think you can disown them as easily as you would like. Are they teaching correct hunters? many of them no but that in and of itself does not mean that they are not h/j barns but they are perhaps bad h/j barns (just as there is bad instruction at eventing barns- and plenty of it). When they advertise, they claim to be h/j, when they go to local shows, it is the local/ c rated h/j shows that they go to, and I see very little of anything other than h/j teaching at these barns (no real dressage, xc, caprilli seat, etc.). You may not like how and what they are teaching but I am not sure you can claim that they simply are not h/j barns. But maybe my experience or the areas where I have been are different than yours. And just to be clear- I am not saying most h/j riders suck, perch or look like praying mantises (or is it manti? wonder what the plural is ;)). I am simply addressing your point and it seems to be saying that because they are not really teaching h/j or correct h/j in your opinion, they should not be counted as h/j and, if this is your point, I disagree.
The second thing I want to address is your statement that a lot of posts are claiming h/j are non-horsemen, etc. There are maybe 2 posters here who have made those sorts of comments in this long thread- if you don't want eventers to over-generalize about h/j, don't do the same to us. I hope you were not including me in that group of a lot of posters- I not said that, I have not meant that and, if you got that from me, you were reading into it something that was not there.

All I can say that in my neck of the woods, a barn that sports full service board, mandatory horse in training and lessons, And is supposed to be the best in the area for hunters turns out some scary riders.
A young girl was taking regular lessons at this barn and just moved to my little no discipline specific barn, the poor thing could hardly post. after 5 years. And they wanted her to buy an expensive horse and start showing.
This I know to be the norm in many of these types of places.
Not a true A circuit barn, and really a shame to see what is turned out from there. I know its all over the country. And yes I know there are really good hunter barns. Unfortunately I think there is alot that just hang a sign and employ a 19 or 20 yr old as a trainer who just happened to win some ribbons. Maybe I should zip on a flame suit But its the truth. Dressage is made fun of, Eventers are just crazy and the attitude of anyone can do that.
Seen it and heard it too many times. :no:

[wanderlust]

All I can say that in my neck of the woods, a barn that sports full service board, mandatory horse in training and lessons, And is supposed to be the best in the area for hunters turns out some scary riders.
A young girl was taking regular lessons at this barn and just moved to my little no discipline specific barn, the poor thing could hardly post. after 5 years. And they wanted her to buy an expensive horse and start showing.
This I know to be the norm in many of these types of places.
Not a true A circuit barn, and really a shame to see what is turned out from there. I know its all over the country. And yes I know there are really good hunter barns. Unfortunately I think there is alot that just hang a sign and employ a 19 or 20 yr old as a trainer who just happened to win some ribbons. Maybe I should zip on a flame suit But its the truth. Dressage is made fun of, Eventers are just crazy and the attitude of anyone can do that.
Seen it and heard it too many times. :no:
And I can just as easily cite one of the local event barns, where crashes are so frequent that the trainer requires all students wear vests even when just jumping in the arena. Where no mind is paid to balance, pace or line nevermind an appropriate distance. Where kids on ponies jump in side reins and draw reins. Where there are piles of broken rails from the trainer and their clients crashing through them (the hoofprints through the quarter round are a nice touch, too). Where the method of getting the horse's head down for dressage (no, clearly not on the bit, but the head down) is yanking and bumping on the outside rein like the western pleasure folks do to get their horses to peanut roll. Yet he has 35 horses/clients in his barn. Why? He's inexpensive, and relatively nice. People like cheap and nice. Oh, did I mention he has an ICP certification? Don't ask me how that was even possible.

I can also cite the kid who came from the event barn down the road to our h/j training barn, and she is the definition of "passenger" and "perchy", more so than any kid who has ever come to us from any hunter barn, local or not.

So ya know, lets not just cast aspersions on the local hunter barns. A lot of the eventing training out there is truly abysmal as well.

[magnolia73]

I get that you can have some very bad training in any discipline.

I just fail to see how it has that much impact on the top what- 5% of riders that are considered for the Olympics. Obviously, no rider is going to go from Scary Mc Percherton's Hunter Academy to the long list for the Olympics without some trainer changes. The most important thing those little barns do is spark a love for horses and riding, that can be nutured and improved upon down the road.

The nice thing is that with hunters, there is frequently a fairly efficient system of accessing better and better training by "moving up". I started at Scary Mc Local Farm, and moved up to Good Lesson Farm to Very Good Place farm. I could have then moved onto someone like Missy Clarke given the talent.

I think eventing appears to lack good trainers that can provide some level of supervision and focused advice when riders start getting out of being novices. It seems like clinics are how the better instruction is doled out, but sometimes the intensity of regular instruction and being exposed to a program is very helpful. So in a sense - eventers do go from Scary McFlyer Scool of Eventing to training with some Olympian once a month with no supervision in between. Being in a very controlled program is not an end all, but very educational. I think Laine Ashker's rolex run may have ended better had she had the respect for her trainer that the eq kids have for theirs.

[Moesha]

I get that you can have some very bad training in any discipline.

I just fail to see how it has that much impact on the top what- 5% of riders that are considered for the Olympics. Obviously, no rider is going to go from Scary Mc Percherton's Hunter Academy to the long list for the Olympics without some trainer changes. The most important thing those little barns do is spark a love for horses and riding, that can be nutured and improved upon down the road.

The nice thing is that with hunters, there is frequently a fairly efficient system of accessing better and better training by "moving up". I started at Scary Mc Local Farm, and moved up to Good Lesson Farm to Very Good Place farm. I could have then moved onto someone like Missy Clarke given the talent.

I think eventing appears to lack good trainers that can provide some level of supervision and focused advice when riders start getting out of being novices. It seems like clinics are how the better instruction is doled out, but sometimes the intensity of regular instruction and being exposed to a program is very helpful. So in a sense - eventers do go from Scary McFlyer Scool of Eventing to training with some Olympian once a month with no supervision in between. Being in a very controlled program is not an end all, but very educational. I think Laine Ashker's rolex run may have ended better had she had the respect for her trainer that the eq kids have for theirs.

Magnolia excellent comments about training and also some really interesting ideas to think about revolving around the comments you made about respect for trainers...I think that is really important. I think there is a humbleness and a regard that someone else is helping you and that someone knows more than you do and knows what you need to do to get it done, and done properly adn competitively and is also removed from you own personal feelings...while still sharing the desire for you to win...while many might think that an ideoloigal goal there are many, many trainers out there who fit that bill and I feel if eventers had more trainers like that, more direct involvement in their training and progress as well as their competion goals....eventers might find a new direction and a different trainer/rider relationship that satisfies a lot of the goals they desire without turning their sport into something they feel is too controlled by trainers and a system...which let's face it is how many eventers see the h/j world....but I think this do it yourself and non humble approach is not going to serve the sport well.

[RugBug]

I think this do it yourself and non humble approach is not going to serve the sport well.

I tend to agree. The DIY attitude is more harmful than any start at a bad H/J facility could ever be. Eventing prides itself on the DIY, but with ever increasing numbers of riders, that attitude is dangerous. I've seen far too many DIY-ers jumping things far beyond their skills would dictate, but they think they can because hey, they make it to the other side, most of the time. Not many clinicians are going to say 'you suck and need to move down a level or four' and some people need to be saved from themselves.

[dogchushu]

All I can say that in my neck of the woods, a barn that sports full service board, mandatory horse in training and lessons, And is supposed to be the best in the area for hunters turns out some scary riders.
A young girl was taking regular lessons at this barn and just moved to my little no discipline specific barn, the poor thing could hardly post. after 5 years. And they wanted her to buy an expensive horse and start showing.
This I know to be the norm in many of these types of places.
Not a true A circuit barn, and really a shame to see what is turned out from there. I know its all over the country. And yes I know there are really good hunter barns. Unfortunately I think there is alot that just hang a sign and employ a 19 or 20 yr old as a trainer who just happened to win some ribbons. Maybe I should zip on a flame suit But its the truth. Dressage is made fun of, Eventers are just crazy and the attitude of anyone can do that.
Seen it and heard it too many times. :no:

Hunter riders around here can post. Even if they aren't in the top 10% of A circuit riders. :rolleyes: Every time this comes up over here, there's always someone who posts about one hunter rider they knew who couldn't ride, couldn't find her own horse, didn't love her horse....

Sorry folks. Having a few crappy examples of your sport out there is NOT limited to hunters. I can pull out many examples of poor riding from aspiring eventers. (In fact, I can think of one entire eventing BARN whose riders scare the pants off me!)

You know, I find it rather amusing that a sport whose participants are banding about "rider responsibility" are now trying to blame their Olympic performance on an entirely different sport!

[Tiramit]

Sannois, of what calibre are the local event and dressage lesson barns in your area? Are the hunter barns the only ones churning out bad riders or is it that your part of MI lacks depth of horse resources for novice riders?

I can tell you in my part of the world there are quite a few talented trainers who do teach horsemanship and riding ability at the hunter level. I can also tell you that most of my coaches would have knocked me down if I ever hopped off the horse and tossed reins at someone in the way you described.

[dogchushu]

Okay. I had a good ride this evening (storms aside), and I've calmed down! :D Feel free to ignore my previous post! Here's what I meant to say...

I think there are many good points (some of which could apply to all riding disciplines, not just eventing), but I think they're being lost in an "eventing vs. hunters" debate. Among them:

* Lack of quality training for beginner riders of any discipline. This affects all disciplines. There's little glamor or money in teaching the up/downers, and it's often delegated to inexperienced, younger trainers. A proper foundation is extremely important. It's also difficult for newbie riders and parents to determine if they or their kid is getting that quality instruction.

* I'm not sure how many disciplines are popular in other countries, but the U.S. has pretty strong interest in hunters, cutting, reining, WP, saddleseat, breed shows, etc. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. It means there's something for all kinds of riders, interests, and horses. But it may mean our pool of talented, dedicated riders gets a bit stretched.

* Many riders don't master work at speed in open country. Now, I do believe that--even with hunter riders-- many (if not most) do regular work outside the ring and take the occasional opportunity for a good gallop. But, even though I (a hunter rider) enjoy it, I don't do it enough to really "master" it. If many riders start with an "inside the ring" discipline (not just hunters), that can be a new skill that requires more work. And many (even in the eventing world) don't have the opportunity to do that work.

So, a lot of the points are valid but aren't necessarily caused by hunters alone.

(Although I still chuckle at the thought that hunters can't post a trot after five years. I thought it was our sitting trot that gave DQs and eventers heart attacks! :D )

[Moesha]

I think the saying "walk a mile in someone's shoes" applies very much so to this thread. I think all of us can be short sighted at times when it comes to what we are passionate about and what we have worked so hard to accomplish. But we have to open our eyes and minds to other ways of doing things...and respect the dedication behind it. We see people all the time, in all walks of life, with all the talent and all the passion in the world...but something all gets in the way; arrogance, fear or anger and that talent is never applied...I think when we are so focused on how right we are and how wrong everyone else is...we have set ourselves up for an almost certain failure...because instead of working towards what we need to, we are going so far out the way to avoid dealing with things like admiting we are wrong or taking the blame for our shortcomings that we end up off course and frustrated and angry....taking a breath and saying this is not working, or I need help...is a treasured strength not a weakness.

[Sannois]

Sannois, of what calibre are the local event and dressage lesson barns in your area? Are the hunter barns the only ones churning out bad riders or is it that your part of MI lacks depth of horse resources for novice riders?

I can tell you in my part of the world there are quite a few talented trainers who do teach horsemanship and riding ability at the hunter level. I can also tell you that most of my coaches would have knocked me down if I ever hopped off the horse and tossed reins at someone in the way you described.

Trainers that tout being eventing or Dressage trainers that have never even evented or shown. I have known it for years Michigan is a waste land. Mostly western pleasure and some wannabee trainers.
There are a few Dressage trainers worth their salt. Older and experienced. Event trainers.. not that I have seen.
More likely folks that teach Equestrian team and 4 H ers.
I know there are some michigan folks on here who might disagree with me,
I know little of the people who train in the eastern portion of the state.
ITs sad really. I dont even enjoy going to watch shows locally, The training gets worse and the rides get scarier.
I know its not exclusive to Michigan but we are not known for great trainers.
:no:

[Sannois]

Okay. I had a good ride this evening (storms aside), and I've calmed down! :D Feel free to ignore my previous post! Here's what I meant to say...

I think there are many good points (some of which could apply to all riding disciplines, not just eventing), but I think they're being lost in an "eventing vs. hunters" debate. Among them:

* Lack of quality training for beginner riders of any discipline. This affects all disciplines. There's little glamor or money in teaching the up/downers, and it's often delegated to inexperienced, younger trainers. A proper foundation is extremely important. It's also difficult for newbie riders and parents to determine if they or their kid is getting that quality instruction.

* I'm not sure how many disciplines are popular in other countries, but the U.S. has pretty strong interest in hunters, cutting, reining, WP, saddleseat, breed shows, etc. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. It means there's something for all kinds of riders, interests, and horses. But it may mean our pool of talented, dedicated riders gets a bit stretched.

* Many riders don't master work at speed in open country. Now, I do believe that--even with hunter riders-- many (if not most) do regular work outside the ring and take the occasional opportunity for a good gallop. But, even though I (a hunter rider) enjoy it, I don't do it enough to really "master" it. If many riders start with an "inside the ring" discipline (not just hunters), that can be a new skill that requires more work. And many (even in the eventing world) don't have the opportunity to do that work.

So, a lot of the points are valid but aren't necessarily caused by hunters alone.

(Although I still chuckle at the thought that hunters can't post a trot after five years. I thought it was our sitting trot that gave DQs and eventers heart attacks! :D )
I humbly appoligize for inferring that it was only Hunter riders.
Their is bad training in all disciplines.
The basics are the foundation for all disciplines. I hope you will forgive my poorly thought out post.
I did correct myself in a reply to someone else. No offence intended.
;)

[LisaB]

:yes::yes::yes:
Dogs!
:yes::yes::yes:

[poltroon]

One advantage that the show jumping team has that the eventers lack is that there are many more opportunities for the jumpers to earn the scarlet coat. In Eventing, we have the WEG, Olympics, and Pan Ams - everything else is individual. In jumping, they have Nations' Cups all over the world every year, where the Chef d'Equipe can put a young rider in, get them the scarlet coat and the flag saddle pad, at relatively low risk. There's always one drop score, and while everyone wants to win all the time, it's not quite the same as the Olympic Games.

I don't know if there's any kind of solution for that.

[Tiramit]

Trainers that tout being eventing or Dressage trainers that have never even evented or shown. I have known it for years Michigan is a waste land. Mostly western pleasure and some wannabee trainers.
There are a few Dressage trainers worth their salt. Older and experienced. Event trainers.. not that I have seen.
More likely folks that teach Equestrian team and 4 H ers.
I know there are some michigan folks on here who might disagree with me,
I know little of the people who train in the eastern portion of the state.
ITs sad really. I dont even enjoy going to watch shows locally, The training gets worse and the rides get scarier.
I know its not exclusive to Michigan but we are not known for great trainers.
:no:

Then it would seem the problem isn't that hunter trainers have failed, rather that attracting quality training of any type to more areas of the country is the challenge. Which, in turn, reduces the talent pool of both horses and riders from which eventing can pull the next generation. That's a concern of a different nature and one that will require intervention from a higher level. :)

[pwynnnorman]

I must say, I honestly don't get why it is so hard to credit the big picture here. It isn't discipline specific--it is culture specific. It's not hunter bashing to say that trainers on what one could call the "ambitious circuit" don't have time to train and therefore need "easy". It's not bias to say that "easy" (like ONLY riding a horse with a lead change already) does not TEACH EFFECTIVE RIDING the way putting that change on yourself would. (If for no othe reason than the rider would learn to recognize BALANCE better. If you ride a horse so talented that it doesn't pay for being unbalanced by, say, missing a change or taking a rail--how the heck do you learn what balance is and how to influence it and what it in turn influences? What kind of riding are you learning by riding only the most/more talented or highly trained horses? THAT was my point before, BTW.) IMO, it's even wrong, these days, to point the finger at "unqualified" trainers, since our culture is rapidly redefining what "training" is--in MOST horse sports.

Consider the team results at the Olympics: the Aussie system vs. the German system. ENTIRELY different, wouldn't you say? Different horses, different rider experiences (lots and lots of DYI, in fact!). See what I mean? IMO, we have to accept what we have--getting in a huff and rationalizing it doesn't get anyone anywhere.

I think the very first step to finding a resolution would be to stop getting offended by the term "easy," whether it is applied to a horse, to a course or to a program. Think about that word and what effect it has on the big picture of our horse sports...and why. It is insidious and inevitable on so many levels. So what can be done about it?

FYI, INSIDIOUS: 1. Working or spreading harmfully in a subtle or stealthy manner; 2. Intended to entrap; treacherous; 3. Beguiling but harmful; alluring.

[magnolia73]

I have to ask-
are we that deficient, internationally? Our riders in show jumping had 3 clears and one four faulter. Germany had no clears.

In dressage, essentially dominated by two European women- we came in 4th, with two riders in the top 10. The only reason we don't have a bronze was a bit of an unexpected day for one traditionally reliable pair.

In eventing, we got silver and had one rider in 12th eliminated for a technical error. One rider was on a pretty green horse at that level, one rider made a mistake and one was on kind of an unpredictable horse.

Basically- we seem to do well, overall. Some years are better than others. But we won some 5 medals in Athens. We do well in showjumping internationally. And every year we get closer to German and Netherlands domination of dressage. Eventing is a little broken right now- but we held our own in the dressage portion, had a bit of bad luck in XC and did OK in stadium. Some of our best riders have lost top horses, one nearly died himself... its been a rough year.

So maybe the problem isn't really there. We seem to produce the riders and horses we need to compete - not dominate- but to compete fairly well internationally- as consistently as the horses allow. Horses are not consistent and predictable and I think our rather consistently good results illustrate an overall quality program.

[asterix]

magnolia, I think part of the issue is that we are not very deep --
when we lost Teddy permanently and a couple of real contenders due to soundness (Stephen Bradley and Heidi White come to mind), we were down to a team with one international novice and one green horse. What happened to Philip and Amy was arguably not predictable (although perhaps recent knee surgery should have tipped the odds on the latter), but ...

WFP had a bunch of horses to pick from, AUS left people off the team who were just as experienced/capable, etc.

I think our best pairs can absolutely contend at the top and we do sometimes win big, but when we lose a couple of horses or riders (so, you could say this year we did not have available Dan, Teddy, Darren, Heidi/Farley), that's sort of that.

Ideally we would have a pool of **** pairs that could populate a medal-contending team several times over. That's what you need to combat last minute dropouts/issues and the vagaries of the sport during a high level event and still come home with a medal.

But our program does not seem to produce this deep of a pool.

[LisaB]

Couple with what asterix is saying:
The Australian team had never competed in the Olympics before. Not one of them. And they still wound up to be the favorites.

[magnolia73]

Well- I don't know- I think some is still luck. Big bad Germany is having a bad week in showjumping. Bad week.

I think luck is still a giant part of success with horses! A few minor changes and US could have had gold in eventing.