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Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 11, 2008, 01:59 AM
Standings after XC, just 10 points separate these top 15 horses.

1 - Holst ------ TB - Holst x Holst
2 - Hann ------ TB - Hann x TB
3 - ISH ------ ISH - ?? ---- (bred in Aus)
4 - ISH ------ Holst - ISH x TB
5 - ISH ------ ISH - ISH xTB
6 - ISH ------ Holst - ISH x TB
7 - SF ------ SF - SF x SF (sireline is Trak, sire's sire was Abdullah)
8 - Hann ------ TB - Hann x TB
9 - Swiss WB ------ BWP - AA x AA (Sire's side is heavy AA also)
10 - TB ------ TB - TB x TB
11 - BSH ------ BSH - TB x TB
12 - ISH ------ ISH - ISH x TB
13 - Aus SH ------
14 - ISH ------ ISH - ISH x RID
15 - ISH ------ ISH - ISH x TB

Seven of the top 15 are ISHs. But what's interesting is that none of them is by a TB stallion, two are by the Holsteiner, Cavalier Royale and the rest are by ISH stallions.
In fact the only other horses sired by a TB (besides Miner's Frolic who is a TB himself) are the 3 German bred horses! In fact the German's may have the most "blood" horses in the mix.
Is that counterintuitive of what?

belambi
Aug. 11, 2008, 04:38 AM
yep..its what the german breeders planned all along. Change the format..and then win a lot!

miggyb
Aug. 11, 2008, 08:47 AM
Seven of the top 15 are ISHs. But what's interesting is that none of them is by a TB stallion, two are by the Holsteiner, Cavalier Royale and the rest are by ISH stallions.
In fact the only other horses sired by a TB (besides Miner's Frolic who is a TB himself) are the 3 German bred horses! In fact the German's may have the most "blood" horses in the mix.
Is that counterintuitive of what?

NOT all the rest are by ISH stallions and Im sure that you will find this even more counterintuitive...

Ringwould Jaguar (Aussie rider Sonja Johnsons- AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE OI OI OI!!!) is an Australian Stock Horse and he is by Jensen's man (Quarter horse) out of Nations of Lili (TB)... now explain that one!

Ajierene
Aug. 11, 2008, 09:00 AM
I was thinking that after this Olympics, the Irish Sport Horst is going to go up in price....

Warmblood types are also making their name in the Eventing world. Either upper level riders are using less thoroughbreds or thoroughbreds just aren't as competitive.

Janet
Aug. 11, 2008, 10:19 AM
NOT all the rest are by ISH stallions and Im sure that you will find this even more counterintuitive...

Ringwould Jaguar (Aussie rider Sonja Johnsons- AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE OI OI OI!!!) is an Australian Stock Horse and he is by Jensen's man (Quarter horse) out of Nations of Lili (TB)... now explain that one!
I am pretty sure he meant "all the rest of the 7 listed as ISH are by ISH stallions".
Not "all the rest of the 15 top placed horses".

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 11, 2008, 10:46 AM
It's counter intuitive for the fact that the ISHs that have traditionally dominated in eventing down through the years have invariably been by TB stallions out of ISH mares.
Also the Germans have often been beaten with a big stick on these forums by the anti-WB crew for supposedly having the format changed to suit their "less blood" horses, yet they have the highest blood horses. The two Butts breed horses on the German team are 90%+ TB blood.

Btw, who reassigned my gender?

Ajierene
Aug. 11, 2008, 10:56 AM
Btw, who reassigned my gender?

Someone thought you were bored with your original gender? You know...they were only trying to help...

sm
Aug. 11, 2008, 10:57 AM
why counter intuitive, Germany has always known the value of TBs:

top horse so far is Maruis, sire is CONDRIEU XX
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/BIO/Horse/H000121.shtml

Abraxxas is in second place and is by another TB sire, this time HERALDIK XX
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/BIO/Horse/H000119.shtml


What's counter-intituive is the thoroughbreds are not listed as such,
full thoroughbreds are not recognized:

TB Poggio II is "unknown:"
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/BIO/Horse/H000075.shtml

TB Madison Park is "unknown:"
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/BIO/Horse/H000138.shtml

TB Courageous Comet is "unknown:"
http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/BIO/Horse/H000080.shtml

not only missing that they're full TBs, but not even crediting the sire with XX so the sire line is recognized as of value.

sm
Aug. 11, 2008, 10:59 AM
Btw, who reassigned my gender?

I'm still working on who reassigned the TB parentage and took them off the history books as full blooded TBs.

Makes you wonder how many ISH have TB sires that are simply not listed with XX. :eek: Or how many are full blood TBs genetically but never registered with a TB registry, but registered with ISH, or another, instead.

Yup, the books kept are a bit odd...

Jealoushe
Aug. 11, 2008, 11:02 AM
I was thinking that after this Olympics, the Irish Sport Horst is going to go up in price....

Warmblood types are also making their name in the Eventing world. Either upper level riders are using less thoroughbreds or thoroughbreds just aren't as competitive.

The ISH has always been up in price, they are unbeleiveable event horses.

sm
Aug. 11, 2008, 11:06 AM
yep, unbelievable is the word I would use.


The ISH has always been up in price, they are unbeleiveable event horses.

gottagrey
Aug. 11, 2008, 11:20 AM
Word on the street, last year in Ireland was that the RID had gone up a bit in price, no doubt the ISH will as well - glad I got mine a few years ago !

Janet
Aug. 11, 2008, 01:50 PM
Btw, who reassigned my gender?
Fixed .
Um I mean "corrected".

Foxtrot's
Aug. 11, 2008, 02:19 PM
Canadian version here - Anybody else felt that the commentary on cross country was lacking. Seemed to me that it was geared to about "C" level Pony Club, and - in Canada anyway - it would have been nice to have a x-country specialist commentating. We were dying to know the bloodlines of the hores and more about their careers, and the riders. Seemed that the research had not been done and there were only stats on the course which they could read. Hope I'm nt coming over as a real grump here, but I would think that tv viewers would be interested instead of the obvious being commented on. I could name a few commentators who would have been perfect, starting with Denny?? He always has opinions:)

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 11, 2008, 03:52 PM
Makes you wonder how many ISH have TB sires that are simply not listed with XX. :eek: Or how many are full blood TBs genetically but never registered with a TB registry, but registered with ISH, or another, instead.


Which of the ISHs in particular are you wondering about? They all have registered pedigrees. Which ones are you questioning their parentage?

sm
Aug. 11, 2008, 06:52 PM
of course they all have registered pedigrees. But ISH is an open registry that accepts pure TBs.

"The Irish Sport Horse is recognized by the Irish Horse Board, as an animal of ANY breeding... For example, an ArabxTB, TBxConnemara, Pure TB or RIDxTB may all be classified as an Irish Sport Horse. But in North America, only the cross with RID blood is classified as an Irish Draught Sport Horse." http://www.irishdraught.com/aboutsh/

And here's the ISH rulebook http://www.irishsporthorse.com/_fileupload/Downloads/Studbook_rules_5baa02bd56b4a45780b9a3b80b27c71e.pd f

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 11, 2008, 07:50 PM
of course they all have registered pedigrees. But ISH is an open registry that accepts pure TBs.

I'm well aware of what a ISH is, trust me.
You intimated that some of those horses were actually by TB sires, not ISH sires, but registered as ISHs. Which ones were you talking about? Name them.

Or maybe you're just blowing a lot of hot air.

gottagrey
Aug. 11, 2008, 10:32 PM
Where did you find the breeding of the horses?

An earlier post made a comment about the Canadian commentators being a C-Pony club-ish - here in US on Oxygen, Melanie Smith (forgot last name) who is usually quite good was slightly out of her element w/ doinng the Cross Country

The criteria for being an ISH in the Irish book is a bit more complicated than just being any animal of any breeding - those animals must be approved based on certain criteria and have competed to a certain level etc etc. Which is why I'm sure SM posted the link to the ISH rulebook

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 11, 2008, 10:39 PM
Where did you find the breeding of the horses?

Various different sources. Here is the list with names.

1 - Marius (Holst) ------ Condrieu (TB) - Eche (Holst) x Laurin (Holst)
2 - Butts Abraxxas (Hann) ------ Heraldik (TB) - Kira (Hann) x Kronenkranich (TB)
3 - Irish Jester (ISH) ------ Irish Enough (ISH) - Yellow Empress(TBX?) ---- (bred in Aus)
4 - Ben along Time (ISH) ------ Cavalier Royale (Holst) - Campaigner's Dream (ISH) x Campaigner (TB)
5 - McKinlaigh (ISH) ------ Highland King (ISH) - Kilcimney Hostess (ISH) x Stretchwood Lad (TB)
6 - Call again Cavalier (ISH) ------ Cavalier Royale (Holst) - My Woodland's Lady (ISH) x Aristocracy (TB)
7 - ISMENE DU TEMPLE (SF) ------ Cabdula du Tillard (SF) - Amethyste (SF) x Quatsous (SF) (sireline is Trak, sire's sire was Abdullah)
8 - Butts Leon (Hann) ------ Heraldik (TB) - Lillian (Hann) x Star Regent (TB)
9 - GAZELLE DE LA BRASSERIE (Swiss WB) ------ Caracondo (BWP) - Oree de la Brasserie (AA) x Arlequin (AA) (Sire's side is heavy AA also)
10 - Miner's Frolic (TB) ------ Miner's Lamp (TB) - Mighty Frolic (TB) x Oats (TB)
11 - Headley's Brittania (BSH) ------ Jumbo (BSH) - Alan's Bambi (TB) x Alanrod (TB)
12 - Mr Medicott (ISH) ------ Cruising (ISH) - Slieve Luachra (ISH) x Edmund Burke (TB)
13 - Ringwood Jaguar (Aus SH) ------ Jensen's Man (QH) - Lili (TB)
14 - Parkmore Ed (ISH) ------ Parkmore Night (ISH) - Bodalmore Lass (ISH) x Diamonds are Trumps (RID)
15 - Connaught (ISH) ------ Ballysimon (ISH) - Bromehill Rogue (ISH) x Royal Rogue (TB)

sm
Aug. 12, 2008, 09:42 AM
With your question to me, are you referring to my post 9? Maybe you should go back and read it for comprehension.

Once again, referring to my post 16, a full TB can be accepted and registered as an ISH. It's not mutually exclusive to be an ISH and to be 100% TB.

You seem fixated on your 7 specific horses, I was not. Out of curiosity, what TB percentage do you think each of the top ISHs (off your list here, by your count 7 horses) have?

sm
Aug. 12, 2008, 09:55 AM
Where did you find the breeding of the horses?



You can get them off here, scroll down and click on competitor's name http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C73CD/EQX003301.shtml#EQX003301

However, as I mentioned earlier, the Jockey Club TBs (a book to be recognized, I'm not talking about a whacky registry somewhere with cooked books) are not recognized.

There is also an error in Poggio IIs ownership: they are missing Amy Tryon as owner, should appear along with the one they did post -- Hart Mark.

grayarabpony
Aug. 12, 2008, 11:20 AM
It's counter intuitive for the fact that the ISHs that have traditionally dominated in eventing down through the years have invariably been by TB stallions out of ISH mares.
Also the Germans have often been beaten with a big stick on these forums by the anti-WB crew for supposedly having the format changed to suit their "less blood" horses, yet they have the highest blood horses. The two Butts breed horses on the German team are 90%+ TB blood.

Btw, who reassigned my gender?

What's the percentage of TB in the ISH parent? Some of the top ISH for eventing are as much as 15/16 TB.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 12, 2008, 11:54 AM
What's the percentage of TB in the ISH parent?

Which ISH parent of which horse. You need to be more specific.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 12, 2008, 12:06 PM
Final standings.....

1 - Marius (Holst) ------ Condrieu (TB) - Eche (Holst) x Laurin (Holst)
2 - McKinlaigh (ISH) ------ Highland King (ISH) - Kilcimney Hostess (ISH) x Stretchwood Lad (TB)
3- Miner's Frolic (TB) ------ Miner's Lamp (TB) - Mighty Frolic (TB) x Oats (TB)
4 - Irish Jester (ISH) ------ Irish Enough (ISH) - Yellow Empress(TBX?) ---- (bred in Aus)
5 - Butts Abraxxas (Hann) ------ Heraldik (TB) - Kira (Hann) x Kronenkranich (TB)
6 - ISMENE DU TEMPLE (SF) ------ Cabdula du Tillard (SF) - Amethyste (SF) x Quatsous (SF) (sireline is Trak, sire's sire was Abdullah)
7 - Ben along Time (ISH) ------ Cavalier Royale (Holst) - Campaigner's Dream (ISH) x Campaigner (TB)
8 - Butts Leon (Hann) ------ Heraldik (TB) - Lillian (Hann) x Star Regent (TB)
9 - GAZELLE DE LA BRASSERIE (Swiss WB) ------ Caracondo (BWP) - Oree de la Brasserie (AA) x Arlequin (AA) (Sire's side is heavy AA also)
10 - Ringwood Jaguar (Aus SH) ------ Jensen's Man (QH) - Lili (TB)
11 - Call again Cavalier (ISH) ------ Cavalier Royale (Holst) - My Woodland's Lady (ISH) x Aristocracy (TB)
12 - Parkmore Ed (ISH) ------ Parkmore Night (ISH) - Bodalmore Lass (ISH) x Diamonds are Trumps (RID)
13 - Connaught (ISH) ------ Ballysimon (ISH) - Bromehill Rogue (ISH) x Royal Rogue (TB)
14 - Stand by Me (SWB) ------ Stanford (SWB) - Princess Fair (SWB) x Prince Fair (TB)
15 - Lenamore (ISH) ------ Sea Crest (RID) - Karinella (TB) x Valiyar (TB)

sisu27
Aug. 12, 2008, 12:57 PM
Canadian version here - Anybody else felt that the commentary on cross country was lacking. Seemed to me that it was geared to about "C" level Pony Club, and - in Canada anyway - it would have been nice to have a x-country specialist commentating. We were dying to know the bloodlines of the hores and more about their careers, and the riders. Seemed that the research had not been done and there were only stats on the course which they could read. Hope I'm nt coming over as a real grump here, but I would think that tv viewers would be interested instead of the obvious being commented on. I could name a few commentators who would have been perfect, starting with Denny?? He always has opinions:)

Cara isn't exactly new to the sport although she is obviously dressage biased. I think Nancy was "dumbing it down" a bit and playing into having Cara explain eventing to the non-horsey viewers. CBC wasn't about to pay for an expert in each phase I'm sure but yeah it would have been nice. As far as more bio info I would agree. They did do a couple nice ones in commercial time about Ian and Eric. I think for us it just always comes down to budget:(

I am just thrilled we are getting to see all the equstrian events in their entirety. They coulda' had Don Cherry barking away for all I care!

I was dissapointed that Corageous Comet and Madison Park were listed as unknown particularly because they are OTTBs. I would suspect that that info could have been obtained even if their home federation did not provide it.

HoosierHorseNut
Aug. 12, 2008, 01:18 PM
NOT all the rest are by ISH stallions and Im sure that you will find this even more counterintuitive...

Ringwould Jaguar (Aussie rider Sonja Johnsons- AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE OI OI OI!!!) is an Australian Stock Horse and he is by Jensen's man (Quarter horse) out of Nations of Lili (TB)... now explain that one!

^ SO that means that there is an Appendix QH in the mix? Woot! ( although, I've taken to calling mine a TB x. :lol:

grayarabpony
Aug. 12, 2008, 01:20 PM
Which ISH parent of which horse. You need to be more specific.

In general. ISH in eventing usually have high percentages of TB blood.

gottagrey
Aug. 12, 2008, 01:21 PM
What I do find interesting is with all the ISH doing so well in international competitions (not just Eventing but Show Jumping as well) that the Irish riders, while many are fabulous, don't seem to finish near the top - not in eventing any way. The Irish do often seem to put together a good show jumping squad.

While much of the debate on the shorter courses for eventing seems to be centered around Germans and their WB, my understanding is that it has as much to do about logistics as it does breeding - meaning the LAND it takes to run the longer course

grayarabpony
Aug. 12, 2008, 01:22 PM
Canadian version here - Anybody else felt that the commentary on cross country was lacking. Seemed to me that it was geared to about "C" level Pony Club, and - in Canada anyway - it would have been nice to have a x-country specialist commentating. We were dying to know the bloodlines of the hores and more about their careers, and the riders. Seemed that the research had not been done and there were only stats on the course which they could read. Hope I'm nt coming over as a real grump here, but I would think that tv viewers would be interested instead of the obvious being commented on. I could name a few commentators who would have been perfect, starting with Denny?? He always has opinions:)

Same gripe in America. Sorry but Melanie Smith Taylor leaves a lot to be desired as a commentator. I like Mike Tucker's commentary although he's not always spot on about the riders' capabilities.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 12, 2008, 01:29 PM
What I do find interesting is with all the ISH doing so well in international competitions (not just Eventing but Show Jumping as well) that the Irish riders, while many are fabulous, don't seem to finish near the top - not in eventing any way. The Irish do often seem to put together a good show jumping squad.

The best horses are generally sold overseas, but in reality the quality of the Irish eventers, riders that is, has always left a lot to be desired. Esp in the dressage.


While much of the debate on the shorter courses for eventing seems to be centered around Germans and their WB, my understanding is that it has as much to do about logistics as it does breeding - meaning the LAND it takes to run the longer course

Exactly.
The whole "the short format is a devious ploy by the Germans to turn Eventing into a WB dominated sport!!" was always a load of cobblers.

sm
Aug. 12, 2008, 02:48 PM
Which ISH parent of which horse. You need to be more specific.

Of all seven on your list.

One can't tell from here, too many blanks in pedigree even if the data input is unofficial: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mckinlaigh
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/parkmore+ed

One can't tell from the ISH rulebook, because they allow 100% DNA TB foals to be registered as ISHs.

And no where can I find online, unlike the JC, the ISH with a database with 5- or 7- generation ISH breeding.

And so I'll ask again:

Out of curiosity, what TB percentage do you think each of the top ISHs (off your list here, by your count 7 horses) have?

grayarabpony
Aug. 12, 2008, 02:50 PM
It doesn't take THAT much more land to have road and tracks and steeplechase.

Janet
Aug. 12, 2008, 02:58 PM
And no where can I find online, unlike the JC, the ISH with a database with 5- or 7- generation ISH breeding. Have you tried the Irish Horse Board web site? Even there they have SOME "not known". But if known they are listed.

grayarabpony
Aug. 12, 2008, 03:01 PM
Custom Made is 1/2 TB, according to All Breed Pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/custom+made2

Eagle Lion is 1/2 TB: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/eagle+lion

Biko is registered both as TB and Irish Sports Horse: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/biko2

sm
Aug. 12, 2008, 03:10 PM
Have you tried the Irish Horse Board web site? Even there they have SOME "not known". But if known they are listed.

http://www.irishsporthorse.com/
They have stallions to two generations, no 5- or 7-generation, and no dam line to review.
They have also gone without the XX when identifying TBs.
Very strange books.... but then it's a registry only and they don't need to proove breed.

Janet
Aug. 12, 2008, 03:26 PM
http://www.irishsporthorse.com/
They have stallions to two generations, no 5- or 7-generation, and no dam line to review.
They have also gone without the XX when identifying TBs.
Very strange books.... but then it's a registry only and they don't need to proove breed.
They have a list of "approved TB Stallions".
http://www.irishsporthorse.com/_fileupload/publications/Section_1_FINAL_f459fea6d2c1dc2a4f9873b6e1c3ceef.p df

And this one for ISH stallions
http://www.irishsporthorse.com/_fileupload/publications/Section_3_FINAL_80bd586e2a1ae9959b713e6452d827f8.p df
indicates TB in the pedigree.

huntrpaint
Aug. 12, 2008, 03:27 PM
It doesn't take THAT much more land to have road and tracks and steeplechase.

I thought they took out R/ts and steeplechase a few years ago in hopes of making cross-country safer (i.e. not using an exhausted horse at the beginning of the cross country)
Seems like that idea has backfired as far as safety is concerned. I remember reading some of the big name eventers believed it would backfire, that the long version would actually be safer then the newer shorter version.

Badger
Aug. 12, 2008, 03:39 PM
Is this Condrieu the right one? Marius' TB sire?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/condrieu

Badger
Aug. 12, 2008, 03:41 PM
Just found Marius' pedigree:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/marius25

sm
Aug. 12, 2008, 03:45 PM
Janet, I've seen the stallion books earlier: no 5- to 7-generation pedigree on anyone, no dam lines 5- to 7- generation to review, and no geldings to review, so my comments remain the same.

I wrote they don't indicate XX. They do indicate (TB) after their registration number in the ISH Stallion book. The classic way, as the Germans do, is to put XX immediately after the name so it is part of the name. Not list it somewhere after the ISH registry ID number. In later generations "(TB)" can simply not be printed. If you notice also the TB "lost" it's original birth registry number, it's recorded by the ISH number only.

Just really curious how much TB blood is in the top 7 horses listed. Since Drummie brought up lack of pure TB sires, that's an obvious qustion. I don't really care how another registry keeps its books... although it must be almost impossible to track genetic issues.

monicabee
Aug. 12, 2008, 04:01 PM
I was just spending my morning looking up all the pedigrees - then I get on here and someone has done it all for me already!

One thing to note about the TB blood in the German horses - it is by and large not random off-the track TBs but from proven sport horses of good conformation.

So in my new quest for my fantasy Irish Sport Horse, that would be the first criteria - from a family proven as a jumper or eventer.

In Ireland, I am sure there are plenty of Irish Draught mares to go around. Here, the bottom is more likely to be a TB mare, as it is cheaper to import stallions.

McKinlaigh is imported from Ireland. Connaught/Simon is also, and according to this article,

http://www.munster-express.ie/front-page-news/general-stories/clare-bred-connaught/

one third of the horses at Rolex were Irish bred.

grayarabpony
Aug. 12, 2008, 04:09 PM
I thought they took out R/ts and steeplechase a few years ago in hopes of making cross-country safer (i.e. not using an exhausted horse at the beginning of the cross country)
Seems like that idea has backfired as far as safety is concerned. I remember reading some of the big name eventers believed it would backfire, that the long version would actually be safer then the newer shorter version.

I think it was that and also actually I've always believed in the German conspiracy theory. :lol: :cry: I really do think the sport was a perfect mix back in the mid-90's.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 12, 2008, 04:17 PM
SM, anyone who has followed ISH breeding knows the traditonal formula for succesful eventer is a horse that is 3/4s to 7/8s TB with the rest RID. In other words one of the many TB stallions in Ireland was put to a 1/2 or 3/4 bred mare. With the advent of ISH stallions in their own right and the use of continental stallions, like Cavalier Royale, the percentages coming from either side are a little different but the end result is probably similar in that you'll get a horse with 75% TB blood.

To say that TBs are not acknowledged in ISH is complete and utter lunacy. The ISH was built on the back of a readily available supply of TB stallions, esp NH stallions (Ireland has been and still is the premier producer of jump racing TBs, the kind of TB blood you would want in an eventer. No other country in the world has used TB sires to the same extent in sporthorse (Olympic discipline) breeding. Ireland has a long and proud history of producing top class TBs, both for the flat and jump racing, a history that goes back over 250 years. So TBs are quite loved and coveted in Ireland and there are lots of them, as I said before the country is flooded with them, probably as many or more than there are ISHs.
However it was realised eons ago that the most potent mix for a sport was to temper the blood of a full TB with some RID. That formula has been proven time and time again to be a winning formula, specifically in eventing (less so in recent decades in SJing). What you are seeing more recently is a move away from the F1 cross to a sporthorse to sporthorse cross, hence the decline in TB sires being used (though TB sires still account for over 25% of all ISHs born every year). Ireland has always been proud of the fact that their sporthorses had more blood than their continental counterparts.
Given the success of the use of ISH sires (i.e just look at the results of any CCI****), it's hard to argue with that approach.

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make. Having read your posts in the past you do see to have an agenda when it comes to TBs in sport and seem to make it your life's work to discredit non-TBs in sport. A good horse is a good horse, give credit where it's due. No need to spin to try to make facts fit your agenda.

grayarabpony
Aug. 12, 2008, 04:21 PM
One thing to note about the TB blood in the German horses - it is by and large not random off-the track TBs but from proven sport horses of good conformation.



They never are. :)

They're not always proven for sport though. Ladykiller, Bay Ronald, Dark Ronald, and Cottage Son never showed in the ring.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 12, 2008, 04:21 PM
I wrote they don't indicate XX. They do indicate (TB) after their registration number in the ISH Stallion book. The classic way, as the Germans do, is to put XX immediately after the name so it is part of the name. Not list it somewhere after the ISH registry ID number. In later generations "(TB)" can simply not be printed. If you notice also the TB "lost" it's original birth registry number, it's recorded by the ISH number only.


The "xx" is a continental affection, it's a WB thing. In Ireland and GB they simply put a "TB" after the name.
It's rare to find a TB listed as an ISH, they are invaribly registered with Weatherbys in the GSB or sometimes in the W-NTR (usually with a "VI" after their name).

sm
Aug. 12, 2008, 04:22 PM
Drummie:

-- so are you saying the top 7 ISH on your list are atleast 75% TB? As opposed to the top two german horses at 90+% TB? We're still not getting an answer on the amount of TB blood in the specific 7 sires. You, after all, brought it up in the first place when you mentioned no full TB sires.

-- I never said, "TBs are not acknowledged in ISH."

-- I think the ISH have some great horses, and congrats. I'm amazed the OTTBs are able to be competitive due to the extensive WB breeding programs and the change in competition formats. And the fact their birth registries have no desire at all to be competitive here.

I will always fight for the straight-up TBs, and don't understand your point on no 100% TB sire in the first generation of your 7 horses. I think the resulting 7 ISH horses being atleast 75+ percent TB speaks for itself.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 12, 2008, 06:04 PM
Drummie:



I will always fight for the straight-up TBs, and don't understand your point on no 100% TB sire in the first generation of your 7 horses.

It was an observation, nothing more nothing less, a fact that I found interesting. It shows a difference in approach in the breeding of ISHs, a drift away from the use of TB sires to the use of sporthorse sires, both ISH and continental bred, with a phenomenal success rate in the eventing arena. That cross is overall the dominant type of horse in eventing, so someone is doing something right.

As a student of horse breeding I like to keep an eye on what works and what doesn't. I have no breed bias, to me a good horse is one that wins and a good breed of horse is one that produces consistent winners.
Over 80% of the horses I have owned and ridden in my lifetime have been TBs. My favourite sport is horse racing (probably 90% of my posts on COTH have been in the Racing forum). So I have a special affinity for TBs. However if I was going for the Olympics in the morning it's not the breed of horse I would focus my search on, I would be searching out ISHs for eventing and WBs for dressage and showjumping. But at the end of the day I would go with whatever horse got the job done.

granfan
Aug. 12, 2008, 06:13 PM
I am only very interested fan and trying to learn. This might be of value. Here is the french trainer's idea for using "blood" and temprament in team rotation:

Explanations of national l’entraîneur, Thierry Touzaint: “Didier Dhennin and Ismène du Temple will leave in n°1 in dressage tomorrow morning (to 09h48 local hour). It will do a little fresher. This will be better for the mare for I fear than the heat does not put it poorly to l’aise.” (They will be also the first French couple to s’élancer on the cross-country running).

“Nicolas Touzaint and Galan of Sauvagère will present themselves on dressage tomorrow evening (to 21h23 local hour) because resumed qu’une in night can be in favor of Galan. Besides, c’est a horse imperturbable, an important trump notably if l’organisation decides to leave gigantic screen lit in the dressage edge.

Will present themselves Sunday on dressage (2nd party), Eric Vigeanel and Coronado Prior (to 07h55 local hour) because qu’Eric ‘wakes’? well.

John Renaud Adde and Haston d’Elpégère will be the last French (to 9h48 local hour), it will be the same on the cross-country running. Haston d’Elpégère is a horse that has blood, therefore it will hold the shock s’il came to do hot.”

The blood the trainer refers to here is Pur Sang. Original french horse, I think. Arabian??

Coronado Prior at 18 yrs was in the indiv sj (rider Vigeanel). Listed as Anglo-Arab

Janet
Aug. 12, 2008, 06:17 PM
The blood the trainer refers to here is Pur Sang. Original french horse, I think. Arabian??"Pur Sang" (pure blood) is TB.

Drvmb1ggl3
Aug. 12, 2008, 06:18 PM
I am only very interested fan and trying to learn. This might be of value. Here is the french trainer's idea for using "blood" and temprament in team rotation:

Explanations of national l’entraîneur, Thierry Touzaint: “Didier Dhennin and Ismène du Temple will leave in n°1 in dressage tomorrow morning (to 09h48 local hour). It will do a little fresher. This will be better for the mare for I fear than the heat does not put it poorly to l’aise.” (They will be also the first French couple to s’élancer on the cross-country running).

“Nicolas Touzaint and Galan of Sauvagère will present themselves on dressage tomorrow evening (to 21h23 local hour) because resumed qu’une in night can be in favor of Galan. Besides, c’est a horse imperturbable, an important trump notably if l’organisation decides to leave gigantic screen lit in the dressage edge.

Will present themselves Sunday on dressage (2nd party), Eric Vigeanel and Coronado Prior (to 07h55 local hour) because qu’Eric ‘wakes’? well.

John Renaud Adde and Haston d’Elpégère will be the last French (to 9h48 local hour), it will be the same on the cross-country running. Haston d’Elpégère is a horse that has blood, therefore it will hold the shock s’il came to do hot.”

The blood the trainer refers to here is Pur Sang. Original french horse, I think. Arabian??

Coronado Prior at 18 yrs was in the indiv sj (rider Vigeanel). Listed as Anglo-Arab

"Pur Sang" means Thoroughbred.
The French eventing horses are often AA or AAC (where the Arab % is below 25%, i.e more than 3/4s TB, a true AA can't have less than 25% of either Arab or TB blood), or they are SF with lots of AA and TB blood.

granfan
Aug. 12, 2008, 06:28 PM
TB's all decended from same few Arabians?

Janet
Aug. 12, 2008, 06:31 PM
TB's all decended from same few Arabians? On the male line - if you expand the meaning of "Arabian" to inlcude "Turk" and "Barb".. But the female line was non-Arabian.

granfan
Aug. 12, 2008, 08:00 PM
Sorry, bad manners, I think you should say when you are leaving a discussion. I forget the < > expression. Had to go see Oxygen's edited edition of sj.

Back to Pur Sang.

It is my understanding that the french are very proud of this blood. Horses/ponys from the Pyrennies (location means likely Arabian blood from Spain). 'Pur Sang' to the french breeder seems to mean that particular Blood, not TB, but that of the Pyreenies horses/pnys.

Now that I can think and am not getting ready to run of. I know that to be a TB a horse must have a blood line tracing to Eclipse or "the other Barb" (thanks Janet, senior moments come at the oddest times, maybe he was called 'The Barb') imported to England in the 19th c.

"Anglo" in french terms I believe is TB. Thusly and Anglo/Arab like the 18 yr old Coronado Prior is TB and Arab (what degree of Arab I do not know) or exactly what it means.

You all know this but i will say it anyway. In October, in France each year is the Le Lion 3-day event to determine best of the breed for 6 and 7 year olds. I noticed last time that they are identiflying SF diffferently.

Not well myself at the time, I am a poor reporter of the defintions. And besides, Nicolas Touzaint, my true love, was mounted on a horse called Barlevento he bought in Spain.

And I had discovered Tim Tebow, the University of Florida quarterback. and so found another true love.

Senior citizens can have as many 'true loves' as they wish. It is a rule.

enjoytheride
Aug. 12, 2008, 09:22 PM
I found this info on anglo arabians competing

France and Ireland have sent 2 Anglos each to represent their countries in Eventing. France's two are AAC's (less than 25% but more than 12.5% Arabian blood) Haston d' Elpégère (13.79%), and Coronado Prior (24.92%). Ireland's Anglos are Hobby Du Mee (59.71%) and Hyanie D'Aubrie (39.47%). All were bred in France.

CHICO, representing China, LAND HEIR and ESCUIDIERO representing Brazil, and PANDORA riding for Switzerland are all Anglos.

The British Equestrian Team has announced that William Fox-Pitt will be representing Britain at the Olympics in Beijing on Mary Guinness' Anglo-Arabian Tamarillo.This will be the pair's second Olympic competition, having won Team Silver in Athens in 2004.

columbus
Aug. 12, 2008, 09:34 PM
http://www.equinesportsbreeding.com.au/horses.php?action=view&id=5

Try www.equinesportsbreeding.com.au then check the stallions

granfan
Aug. 12, 2008, 10:47 PM
enjoytheride and columbus: thanks for your replies.
Questions: enjoytheride: is the other part of what you are calling anglos, TB? As in "anglos" [read TB] + Arabian.

columbus: my computer would not let me open the file you suggested. All I got was pops.

Now I am signing off for the night. Thanks for the discussion.

gottagrey
Aug. 13, 2008, 01:48 PM
It doesn't take THAT much more land to have road and tracks and steeplechase.

I don't know where you live but where I am lots of land is being gobbled up by developers - so YES it can take that much more land - why do you think they are running the 3 day in Hong Kong on a GOLF COURSE ? LA Olympics - GOLF COURSE. Of course now what with the building boom being somewhat at a halt maybe that will stop the farmers from selling off their land for millions so they can host a **** event w/ the long format I'm also not seeing any information in here about any country's "breeding" program. I'm putting that conspiracy theory there w/ OJ's excuse - drug dealers did it.

This is from the USEA website - 2007

Why The Change?

The demise of the long-format with steeplechase was due to a number of reasons and largely to do with costs and the availability of land and volunteers. As our wide open spaces are giving way to urban development there are fewer and fewer venues that can provide the space necessary for such a land hungry sport. The costs involved are high and organizers are hard-pressed to make the three-day event break even, let alone be profitable. The Olympic Games has to attract entries from a number of countries and the lesser-known eventing nations were finding it increasingly hard to qualify and prepare their riders as they had no long-format courses available to them. With the immense expense of traveling to the U.S., Britain and other top eventing countries to qualify and the lack of suitable competitions at home they were unable to field teams. This meant that the number of nations participating was decreasing. It was also believed that the shorter format would be friendlier to the horses who would be able to compete more often thus giving their owners more opportunities to enjoy watching them compete. In addition, many suggested that the shorter format would be more attractive to television viewers and would garner more sponsorship and advertising.

The International Olympic Committee stated that if eventing could not find a way to solve these issues then the sport may be dropped from the Olympic program. Jack le Goff, former coach and chef d'equipe to the US, was developing the FEI Eventing World Cup Competition at the time and believed that the format to be used for this competition could be adapted to meet the demands of the IOC. The World Equestrian Games in 2002 was the last international team event (CCIO) to use the long format. The Athens Olympic Games in 2004 was scheduled to be a long-format competition with steeplechase but was granted permission to use the short format. The speed with which the short format took hold amazed everyone. Four of the world's four-star competitions – Badminton, Burghley, Adelaide and Luhumuhlen all turned to the short format without steeplechase, though Janie Atkinson and Equestrian Events, Inc., battled against this trend our own Lexington, Kentucky four-star went short format in 2006.

Danae-n-Lucy
Aug. 14, 2008, 02:38 PM
I was just spending my morning looking up all the pedigrees - then I get on here and someone has done it all for me already!

Here's more:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/marius25 (Holst)
sire is TB, and on the dam's side when you go 4-5 generations back you find most stallions are also TB = ~75% TB

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mckinlaigh (ISH)
both grandsires are TB = 50% TB

http://www.pedigreequery.com/miners+frolic (http://www.pedigreequery.com/miners+frolic) (TB)
100% TB

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/irish+jester3 (ISH)
unknown, ISH x TBX? - does anyone know this horse's sire's name?


http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/butts+abraxxas (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/butts+abraxxas) (Han)
99% TB (63/64 % TB, the only non-TB in the 5th generation back is the tail-line dam, whose sire was also TB)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ismene+du+temple (SF)
75% SF which is the native French racehorse (the French race SF like the rest of the world race TBs)


http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ben+along+time (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ben+along+time) (ISH)
about 45% TB, dam is 50% TB, sire is ~40% TB when you dig back in the pedigree.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/butts+leon (Han)
99% TB - go back 6 generations on the tail dam line to find an unknown Hanoverian mare "by Impressionist" a 1939 TB.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/gazelle+de+la+brasserie (Swiss WB)
90%+ TB/AA/SF

Ringwood Jaguar (not entered on allpedigree.com yet) - 50%+ TB (Aus SH): Jensen's Man (QH) X Lili (TB)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/call+again+cavalier (ISH)
sire is mostly TB/SF/Trotter, dam's pedigree is unknown


http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/parkmore+ed (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/parkmore+ed) (ISH)
sire is ~60-70% TB, granddam's pedigree is unknown

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/connaught (ISH)
sire is at least 87% TB, dam's pedigree is unknown

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/stand+by+me (SWB)
25% TB

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lenamore (ISH)
62% TB

vineyridge
Aug. 14, 2008, 04:12 PM
As far as French racing is concerned, Pur Sang means TB, and AQPS (Autre que Pur Sand) means cross bred. AQPS can run in French races and are often SFs. The SFs have won the biggest French steeplechase several times in the past few decades.

French Anglo Arabs have their own studbook which is a separate section of the SF book. That is to say, you can find it somewhere on the official SF website. I'm thinking that the French AA is their home grown version of the TB, but with constant infusions of Arab Blood. Or am I thinking of another brand of French horse from the 1700's? I know they did develop a kind of TB independently of Weatherbys and the British horses, but going blank on just what it was. But it's as old as TBs.