US goes from 3rd to 10th

[cabopony]

Tryon dismounted on course any one know why?

[HiJumpGrrl]

...er, let's just say it was unintentional. Poggio hung a foreleg, nearly resulting in a rotational fall.

[Jazzy Lady]

Poggio tried his heart out but was not presented as he should have been. Amy was lucky her ride didn't result in a rotational.

[snoopy]

Poggio tried his heart out but was not presented as he should have been. Amy was lucky her ride didn't result in a rotational.


amy dropped the ball.

[Jazzy Lady]

She did... I couldn't believe how she chased him at that. Every other horse has show jumped it and she came flying at it, chased for the long, got ahead. He tried to add and couldn't get out of the way enough. She's lucky he's that cat-like. He's a very clever horse.

[cabopony]

What fence? I havent seen her go yet online.

[86]

I havent seen her go yet online.

She went a while ago

[cabopony]

Thanks

[Shrapnel]

You all OBVIOUSLY have never watched Poggio jump before. He likes to rush at his fences, but then he somehow curls in the air and usually makes a nice jump. He is not the easiest horse to ride, thats for sure.

Don't believe me? Go buy the DVD from Athens or Aachen then come talk to me :).

But, Yes, they came at it a little quick (but thats normal for Poggio), and then he hung a leg and Amy went out the front door. Really a freak thing.

[snoopy]

One should not rely on a quirky jumping style to compensate for a poor approach

[Ajierene]

If you look at the live feed commentary in the Olympic section, everyone that commented agreed that she was trying desperately to check him and he was just getting to fast. To say Amy wasn't doing anything seems to be a bit of a stretch.

[Gnep]

she did not, screwed it up completly, that was lousy riding

[Copper]

she did not, screwed it up completly, that was lousy riding

What riding?
Up to the fall she looked liked a passenger to me..............No interaction with her horse at all.

[snoopy]

she did not, screwed it up completly, that was lousy riding



I agree...go back and watch her ride at fence 9, 10 and the fall at 11. You could see this coming...it is too bad but not unexpected.

I feel bad that her horse is leaving International competition on this note and I am sure she is desperately disappointed.

[RAyers]

Amy hit the bottom of the hill at full lick. When the other riders (e.g. Mark Todd) took a light tug to balance at the compression of the hill, Amy flew right on by. May be she thought the hill would do the work? She also came at a higher angle across the top than the other riders.

When she took the combination a Yu Garden (I think that was it) and gapped the skinny, that is when I began to wonder if it was Poggio or if AT was blanking on course.

In my book, there is NO such thing as a "freak" accident or "freak" thing. She missed.

Reed

[TexasTB]

I am in no way an Amy-basher, in fact I have stood up for her many times on this board.

However, what happened today was definitely her fault. Before she even made the turn me and my friend were saying "Oh no, this isn't going to be good." She was tipped forward, making only half an attempt to balance her horse before the fence, and make the classic mistake of pushing for the long- Poggio didn't have a chance.

I am absolutely gutted for Becky and Karen. It just wasn't Courageous Comet's day today, and Karen did her best with a green horse at his first CCI****, that is quite the pressure situation for a young horse. Going for the short route at the last was probably not the greatest decision for Karen after already having one refusal, but you could overhear her talking to Amy at the finish, saying something to the effect of that she thought if she took the long she'd have way too much time, and then apologizing to her team mates :(.

But Amy, well I don't necessarily feel bad for her as it was a piece of riding that I would not expect from someone as experienced as her, especially after all the talk lately about BALANCING your horse to the fence. I'm just very disappointed, as she was one of our best hopes for a medal and let our team down. Its one thing to have a refusal from not riding a line properly, but an entirely different thing to have a fall from riding your horse dangerously.

[snoopy]

However, what happened today was definitely her fault. Before she even made the turn me and my friend were saying "Oh no, this isn't going to be good." She was tipped forward, making only half an attempt to balance her horse before the fence, and make the classic mistake of pushing for the long- Poggio didn't have a chance.



But Amy, well I don't necessarily feel bad for her as it was a piece of riding that I would not expect from someone as experienced as her, especially after all the talk lately about BALANCING your horse to the fence. I'm just very disappointed, as she was one of our best hopes for a medal and let our team down. Its one thing to have a refusal from not riding a line properly, but an entirely different thing to have a fall from riding your horse dangerously.


This is my take on it as well...Maybe excitment got the better of her and unfortunately believe this to be more rider error than freak accident.

[RiverBendPol]

All 3 of them rode badly and Poggio was a runaway. What a crying shame Bonnie wasn't there.:mad:

[TBpalsx3]

Please help me. How many refusals did Becky and Comet actually have? I thought she had one with some time. Did she have 3 refusals? I saw the one but of course the live feed showed very little of her ride. I swear when she came across the finish line she had 32 penalties reflected on the feed not the 82 reflected on the NBCOYMPICS.COM web site

[BaliBandido]

she did not, screwed it up completly, that was lousy riding

I made the mistake of saying something to that effect on the live feed thread and got snapped at, however I'm glad others saw it the same way.

It didn't start at that fence, she looked blank out of the box and was completely ineffective at several fences prior to this one. Damn lucky he managed to get himself out of it.

I'll say it again AT so does not impress me.

[poltroon]

Please help me. How many refusals did Becky and Comet actually have? I thought she had one with some time. Did she have 3 refusals? I saw the one but of course the live feed showed very little of her ride. I swear when she came across the finish line she had 32 penalties reflected on the feed not the 82 reflected on the NBCOYMPICS.COM web site

On the live feed thread it says she crossed her path an extra time on the reapproach.

[ridexc]

On the CBC (Canadian) broadcast, Cara Whitham and Nancy Wetmore were just commenting on what they called Poggio's "unique" jumping style and how Amy totally trusts him, when disaster struck.

I have to admit that it looked to me like she was substituting trust for accurate riding. She just gunned at that fence and he ended up way too close to just curl over it. I don't know that he hung a leg so much as caught a stifle. Either way, no chance of clearing it, and you could see it coming from 10 strides out.

[fernie fox]

I could see from the start that AT. was outclassed by her horse and the course.

Just watch the 3 fences prior to the one they fell at.

It was breathtaking riding[and definately not in a good way]:eek:

Absolutely NO finesse,or being at one with her horse.Just standing in her stirrups and bracing her body against the horse,and tearing his face off,,a battle of brute force and ignorance.

I watched her ride other horses at Red Hills earlier this year,she rode them the same way,standing in her stirrups,to take a pull at them,especially downhill.

She looked like a total novice being run-away with .

The other Americans were great.:D

[Dressage62]

Next, Amy is competing Leyland at the Blair Castle Horse Trials CCI***, Perthshire, Scotland, at the end of August. http://www.blairhorsetrials.co.uk/entries/entries.asp

[magnolia73]

Honestly- it looked like it was not her day- Amy Tryon. Her horse looked very strong. And she was not managing it. And (hate to say it) Becky Holder's stop looked like something I would do- it look like she stopped riding a few strides out and gave up. Then Karen O'Conner taking the brush option after so many people had issues with it vs the long route was disappointing. We definitely can not blame the horses or the course for our poor standings. It was rider error all around. I figured the XC would be a no brainer for our team.

Of course, I would have fallen off at the first jump. But what a disappointment. I hope Gina Miles picks up a medal.

[cabopony]

OK I in no way started this thread as a bashing thread for Amy. I just wanted to know what hapened to her. I am glad everyone is safe and it is sad that for whatever reason, she had an incomplete ride.

[Jazzy Lady]

I have seen Poggio jump lots. I love this horse. I never really had a comment on Amy, but it was her fault. It was not Poggio. If the horse is known to rush, it's the rider who needs to sit up and do something about it, not chase faster and throw themselves forward.

[luise]

Maybe the US team is sabotaging themselves so Mark Phillips will quit as the coach!

[bambam]

hahaha Luise
I doubt it is intentional but isn't he always defended based on his results? well, lets keep judging him on results then

[Thomas_1]

On another thread I nominated her as one of the worst riders:

She tanked off and then tried pick a fight and pulled and yanked and heaved at his mouth to get him to listen: which was never going to happen when she'd just raced off as she did. She took a couple of serious risks right from the off and then paid the price when the horse caught a knee. IMO dreadful irresponsible riding and appalling team contribution!

[Ajierene]

Next, Amy is competing Leyland at the Blair Castle Horse Trials CCI***, Perthshire, Scotland, at the end of August. http://www.blairhorsetrials.co.uk/entries/entries.asp

I had thought she had done more and just wasn't meshing with Poggio, but after reading these comments, I'm going to have to go back and look at her ride again.

How does she have time to compete another horse so soon after the Olympics? When does she have time to train him? Even if someone else is riding him, I would not consider a 3 star a viable 'catch ride' venue.

[vineyridge]

Can't hurt for any American eventer to spend as much time "over there" as they can possibly wrangle. Might be good for Amy to do some more competing in Europe, instead of being off by herself in WA. :cool:

Poggio has always been a tough, tough ride. I can remember watching them bounce around Rolex like the ball on a pinball machine. Over the years, if I remember rightly, he's been in every gadget bit on the market. :yes: :winkgrin:

[Dressage62]

How does she have time to compete another horse so soon after the Olympics? When does she have time to train him? Even if someone else is riding him, I would not consider a 3 star a viable 'catch ride' venue.

Phillip Dutton is entered at Burghley-- the first weekend in Sept.

[Hilary]

So Poggio is known to be extremely difficult, and to have a unique jumping style.

I haven't seen the ride but half the poster are saying she did nothing, and the others are saying she was hauling on him.


When you are not in control sometimes you have to try lots of things to get the horse back under some form of communication. if Amy was trying to get him back (the standing in stirrups and hauling and yanking) and it wasn't working what WOULD you have liked to see her do? Sit pretty and pray? So was she doing nothing? Or was she trying and he wasn't responding?

[2869]

Poggio looks like a pretty tough ride. I thought there were a few fences that were a little scary where you could see her trying to slow him down w/not much result. The combo before the fall where it was a vertical down hill to a skinny, PHEW!! That was amazing and scary at the same time. It looks like he sets his neck and that is that.

[RAyers]

Maybe a circle? AT is not a small waif of a girl. She is almost twice as big as me so I think she could have gotten control if she REALLY wanted to do so.

If Pogio was really "bolting" I think control would be the priority rather than getting over the fences.

I think AT locks up when the pressure is on.

Reed

So Poggio is known to be extremely difficult, and to have a unique jumping style.

I haven't seen the ride but half the poster are saying she did nothing, and the others are saying she was hauling on him.


When you are not in control sometimes you have to try lots of things to get the horse back under some form of communication. if Amy was trying to get him back (the standing in stirrups and hauling and yanking) and it wasn't working what WOULD you have liked to see her do? Sit pretty and pray? So was she doing nothing? Or was she trying and he wasn't responding?

[pwynnnorman]

I can never understand why people think someone with reams of successes suddenly up and becomes stupid.

We've noted here again and again that everyone misses sometimes, everyon errs. We've praised the wonderful, traditional x-c horse who'll save your butt when that happens.

Poggio isn't that type of horse. Luckily, he's super talented and Amy has been patient and worked hard and risked a heck of a lot (like her own neck) to give that horse his shot at greatness (and great he is: an individual with character and amazing ability). So many would have tossed him aside, but she kept trying -- just like she did yesterday, except no matter how she tried, the old boy just wasn't going to listen.

That's the obvious explanation. AT haters will, of course, choose the most critical one, no matter how unrealistic it is.

[Ajierene]

Phillip Dutton is entered at Burghley-- the first weekend in Sept.

I just checked the listings:
http://www.bdwp.co.uk/cgi-bin/3d.pl?fn=bur08.csv&page=ioe&sct=C

William Fox-Pitt (3 horses), Daisy Dick (2 horses), Karin Donckers (2 horses), Andrew Nicholson (2 horses), Phillip Dutton (1 horse).

None of them look like they are riding their Olympic horses, but I still think that is a bit much. Maybe they will have time in 2 or 3 weeks to get on these horses and ride, but considering how far Hong Kong is away from everything (Travel time, etc.), I would be wary.

[tangledweb]

AT is not a small waif of a girl. She is almost twice as big as me so I think she could have gotten control if she REALLY wanted to do so.

Wow. Are you really are 3 feet tall? Do you find it difficult to get appropriate sized horses with talent?

[flyingchange]

That sucks for Amy. Really does. I wonder how their warm up went? I would not blame her if she decided to bring him back after his vacation and shoot for a couple of more *** and ****s. If he were sound and game, I would certainly not blame her for it.

I wonder if his lack of rideability had to do with him not doing much in the past year. Perhaps he is the kind of horse that needs to be kept exposed to "atmosphere" and allowed to compete in order to keep him rideable. I dunno .... but that was some shit luck for her.

Feel bad for Karen too. It was a lot to ask of such a young and green horse. Hopefully he will be sound and back to do 2012, and can get some good exposure to Rolex and either Badminton or Bughley before then. He looks like he has all the right stuff. Just a bit too green for what turned out to be a truely olympic XC course.

[JER]

I thought AT looked unfit. Her galloping position was rather loose and flopping forward; I was surprised by her lack of a secure position.

Poggio looked like he could have used a steeplechase.

Everyone has bad days. I'd like to think this was one of theirs. I'd say the same for Becky Holder -- she just didn't get to that dragon fence right. You could see her indecision in the strides before the fence.

[magnolia73]

I can never understand why people think someone with reams of successes suddenly up and becomes stupid.



She looked sloppy up there. Most of the top riders look very tight- very much in control of their bodies, almost at one with their horses. I'm not talking about a big eq rider- I'm talking about the image of a rider for whom riding is rather seamless and effortless.

So I don't think she is stupid- but did not appear at the top of her game like the others from Germany, Australia etc. And has she had reams of recent successes?

So I think she was the problem and that perhaps what- 4 years ago- she was tighter and at the top of her game. I don't buy that it was the horse somehow being extra challenging or out of character.

[poltroon]

A year ago she dictated too much to her horse; yesterday she dictated too little.

Amy and Poggio have been remarkably consistent, though not always the nicest to watch. He's a tough ride.

Sometimes at the Olympics the horses are just different. Mary King's great King William ran away with her at Barcelona. They were working to get the horses extra fit.

She was eliminated, but she came home safe. Maybe my standards have changed over the years, but given the way the spring has gone, I can consider the US performance disappointing but hardly a disaster. Had Becky taken one less tug or Amy one more, or if the Pony were there, maybe we'd be toasting them. Plenty of riders had lucky moments on the course; if one more of ours had, we would be among the leaders. The Brits rode well but they were also lucky; we and the Kiwis were unlucky. C'est eventing. C'est Olympiques.

Edited to add: The US is actually in 7th, not 10th.

[gully's pilot]

Amy's not unfit; she's not super-skinny, but she's got fantastic strength and endurance. Poggio's a hard ride. I watched her fall on video and I can't say without being in the saddle what she should have done differently--even then, I probably wouldn't know. :)

I'm disappointed in our placement, but not in our team.

[Spoilsport]

I'm disappointed in our placement, but not in our team.

Oh, I agree with that!! That's eventing. And we're 7th, not 10th. . .not that it matters. Many, probably most, of the riders who are in the top spots have had their share of disappointments and setbacks.

Gawd, I admire everyone who is out there trying!

[poltroon]

BTW, I think I'm happy with the fall-and-out rule at the Olympics, especially with the best 3/5 scores for the team (instead of 3/4). It saves a lot of worries, and once you have a fall, you're out of contention anyway.

[purplnurpl]

Wow. Are you really are 3 feet tall? Do you find it difficult to get appropriate sized horses with talent?

Actually, Tangleweb...he kind of is.

sorry Reed. heheheheh.

AT is very well twice Reed's size. We are not just talking height but square inches. Amy's not just tall...she's a beefy one. I wouldn't want to be on her bad side. She could take me out with her little finger. ; )

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Folks...how about Gina! Lovely dressage test. I haven't watched yet but sounds like she had a great go xc too! And sounds like Phillip had a good round as well. It is a shame the US as a team isn't in contention....but come on people, there are two US riders who are not out of it yet! Cheer for them.

[purplnurpl]

I thought AT looked unfit. Her galloping position was rather loose and flopping forward; I was surprised by her lack of a secure position.

Poggio looked like he could have used a steeplechase.

Everyone has bad days. I'd like to think this was one of theirs. I'd say the same for Becky Holder -- she just didn't get to that dragon fence right. You could see her indecision in the strides before the fence.


The conditions they are riding in are tough too. Jet lag...humidity.
That will make you weak in the knees.

[snoopy]

Amy is designed not to run but to stand there and fight. I often want to ask her to fireman carry me...just once.

[mbarrett]

Boy, it seems like whatever our (USA) riders do, it isn't good enough for ya'll. I'm sure they all tried very hard to do the best they could. But guess, what? Horses have a mind of their own and I bet they (the horses) didn't read the part in the play book about winning the gold medal.

I was disappointed for our riders, they work hard. I'm sure they were as prepared as they could be. I'm certain there will be plenty of second-guessing by team coaches as well as the riders!

I have to say, if I was disappointed in one rider the most, it would be Karen O'Connor. I'm very surprised that she took the fast routes with a very inexperienced horse. I thought her years of experience would have told her to go the long way, give her horse a good ride and let the time faults pile up. I'm especially surprised since she knew other team members did not have good results on cross country.

If anyone should have known better, it was KO.

[bambam]

Folks...how about Gina! Lovely dressage test. I haven't watched yet but sounds like she had a great go xc .
nobody in the US has watched it yet :)- last night the US riders with the exception of Phillip got short shrift on camera time (I figure either a European feed or NBC is hoping to get us to watch the TV coverage of US riders tonight). The few fences I saw were lovely

[JER]

The conditions they are riding in are tough too. Jet lag...humidity.
That will make you weak in the knees.

Yes.

I've spent a fair amount of time in Hong Kong although in recent years, I don't enjoy it so much due to the air pollution. Some days you just don't feel well and many days you're coughing up/sneezing out all sorts of grime. This is when you sit by the pool at the Peninsula and enjoy the view across the bay.

In the last two weeks, HK has had record air pollution with a sharp increase in ground-level ozone. Ozone can adversely affect lung performance and cause airway inflammation. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the athletes -- human and equine -- were feeling it yesterday.

[RAyers]

Wow. Are you really are 3 feet tall? Do you find it difficult to get appropriate sized horses with talent?

I was thinking in a more density (mass to volume) aspect. She definitely is wider and taller and out weighs me.

Reed

[3dazey]

Was Poggio in a hackamore? She looked like she was on a runaway train from the word go. It reminded me of 3 Magic Beans doing the short format at Rolex...he left the start box and it was all over. Nina couldn't have stopped or slowed him down for anything, he was a bullet heading for a target and he fell, too.

Both of those horses would be easier to ride xc after schase, I'm sure (if easier is the right word...maybe "less freakin' hard"?)

[wanderlust]

So to turn this thread in a more positive direction... way to go Gina! You couldn't have a nicer person in the hunt for a medal. She's frequently up at our local eventing facility teaching pony club and always finds ways to give back in spite of campaigning all over the world at such a high level. Fingers crossed!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

nobody in the US has watched it yet :)- last night the US riders with the exception of Phillip got short shrift on camera time (I figure either a European feed or NBC is hoping to get us to watch the TV coverage of US riders tonight). The few fences I saw were lovely


That's a bummer. My cable and internet got knocked out last night with the storms.....we had lovely hail that managed to crack the windshield on a friend's car (I didn't think the hail was that big but guess it was big enough....lightning is what took out the cable/internet though). Oh well...I needed to go to bed early anyway. I've been very pleased with the internet coverage whom every they chose to show....to be honest, i almost like seeing the non-US riders more since they are less familar to me....it's almost as a good a free lessons!

But I was impressed with Gina's dressage...what a cool horse. He just took everything in and did his job. Fingers crossed that they all feel good and show jump well!

[Sannois]

What did Amy do to Qualify for the team??
And why was Kim or Corrine not chosen?? EspeciallyKim Thats a real shock! :confused:
And I dont recall Amy ever looking so not in control on Poggio. And I have seen him go alot and in person.
She looked tense and frozen, no harmony with him at all, more like a big battle! :no:

[Ajierene]

That's a bummer. My cable and internet got knocked out last night with the storms.....we had lovely hail that managed to crack the windshield on a friend's car (I didn't think the hail was that big but guess it was big enough....lightning is what took out the cable/internet though). Oh well...I needed to go to bed early anyway. I've been very pleased with the internet coverage whom every they chose to show....to be honest, i almost like seeing the non-US riders more since they are less familar to me....it's almost as a good a free lessons!

But I was impressed with Gina's dressage...what a cool horse. He just took everything in and did his job. Fingers crossed that they all feel good and show jump well!

My boyfriend and I hit that storm coming back from Philadelphia - we ended up stopping in the parking garage at his work to wait for the hail to pass over. Luckily we were near it when the visibility on the road dipped to maybe 10 ft due to rain and hail - very scary!


Someone said Amy didn't ride Poggio much this year - which makes Sannois' question interesting, how did she make the team? What exactly is needed for qualifications? I know a committee picks the actual competitors, but what shows/how many does a person have to do to be eligible?

[snoopy]

What did Amy do to Qualify for the team??




Anyone?

[fernie fox]

I cant imagine:eek:

[Sightunseen]

Well I have not seen any of the jumping yet, BUT some POSITIVE notes on the Dressage...I have never been a big Karen fan, but I thought that she had a LOVELY ride, and rode smart on a green horse. I did not see Gina's test which I am REALLY disappointed about. I might have to dig around on-line to see what I can find. Becky had a lovely test and I think she was kinda jipped on some of the scores. And Philip has a solid test. I was REALLY surprised at the shoulder-in. I do not know that I saw very many rides execute it well. But I am only watching minimal coverage...

[seeuatx]

So glad I am not an Olympian. Some of Ya'll are just out for blood. It's like how people say Steeler's (/ Pittsburgh in general ) fans are the worst in the NFL. Love your team when they bring you home pretty shiny things, crucify them when they have a bad year.

[KinetonKritter]

Looked to me like Poggio was in his "I'm in control" mode just a bit too much for a safe cross country - Amy looked worried early on at his lack of adjustability, and the skinny gave her plenty of reason for concern! He's a horse that gives new meaning to "pulling through the bridle". Amy has always been a large woman, even when she won the bronze medal, so I'd be surprised if that had anything to do with their disappointing go. Phases A, B and C might have helped!

[fernie fox]

I think that there were some better ,more reliable rider and horse combos left at home.

When the pony was lost I think it would have been better to send a more experianced horse in his place.

I think it was a "tall order" to expect KO to pilot a green horse at the Olympics ,even with her experience.

[findeight]

Boy, it seems like whatever our (USA) riders do, it isn't good enough for ya'll.......

If anyone should have known better, it was KO.

But you will join in anyway.

[Sannois]

I cant imagine:eek:

What was the Criterion for Amy getting selected over someone like Kim.
Or even another younger rider, like Corrine.
What did Amy have that needed to be part of our Team???:confused::confused:

[JAM]

That can be said of all the competitors.

The conditions they are riding in are tough too. Jet lag...humidity.
That will make you weak in the knees.

[GreyDun]

Or even another younger rider, like Corrine.


I believe that Corinne's actually a few years older than Amy.... :)

[Sightunseen]

What was the Criterion for Amy getting selected over someone like Kim.
Or even another younger rider, like Corrine.
What did Amy have that needed to be part of our Team???:confused::confused:

I think the idea was that Amy and Poggio are a experienced pair. While you can say now "Oh well it didnt matter did it?", that is not the point. Historically teams send their pairs with the most experiences, and for Amy and Poggio it is there.

[kt-rose]

So glad I am not an Olympian. Some of Ya'll are just out for blood. It's like how people say Steeler's (/ Pittsburgh in general ) fans are the worst in the NFL. Love your team when they bring you home pretty shiny things, crucify them when they have a bad year.

I agree! Good grief...

[magnolia73]

What did Amy have that needed to be part of our Team???

I think Amy's selection to the team was more about the horse. Had they been "on", bet they would have been the closest to the time etc.

[poltroon]

What was the Criterion for Amy getting selected over someone like Kim.
Or even another younger rider, like Corrine.
What did Amy have that needed to be part of our Team???:confused::confused:

Amy's international record is pretty consistent. She and Poggio have jumped around two WEG courses (third in 2006) and they were sixth at Athens. If you look at the team, as a pair, they are by far the most experienced combination, with Phillip being a close second. The last pair to be named was Karen and Mandiba, who replaced Heidi White with the injured Northern Spy.

Corinne had a fall at Rolex, so I think that took her out of contention for the squad.

I'm glad Becky and Courageous Comet got to go, even with their runout. They're a fantastic pair, and the only way they'll get more experience to do great things in the future is to go out and get more experience in pressure situations like this.

[wookiee]

How did Amy get on the team?

Ok, I will be the jerk and say it: I think it's more about CMP than Poggio.

I am completely ready for a regime change. Get CMP and his buddies out of there and get some fresh blood. Kim, etc.

Gina (who should never have been there with such a big horse, remember???) schooled our big names by respecting the horse and respecting the course. Heck, the full time dentist from Germany schooled our big names. Enough with the names, let's get new talent.

Becky is just sad. I was so thrilled for her to be on the team, but she can't focus to finish. I love her and will clinic with her regardless, but I so wanted it for her.

KOC, love her, but she's not immortal. She can't do miracles. Poor decisions all around. And Amy was just terrifying and embarrassing. Event W-F-P (not American but a big name) struggled.

And Philip, our best American rider, is still showing us how strong Aussie riding is. We NEED new blood!!

[Dressage62]

I just checked the listings:
http://www.bdwp.co.uk/cgi-bin/3d.pl?fn=bur08.csv&page=ioe&sct=C
William Fox-Pitt (3 horses), Daisy Dick (2 horses), Karin Donckers (2 horses), Andrew Nicholson (2 horses), Phillip Dutton (1 horse).
None of them look like they are riding their Olympic horses, but I still think that is a bit much. Maybe they will have time in 2 or 3 weeks to get on these horses and ride, but considering how far Hong Kong is away from everything (Travel time, etc.), I would be wary.

William Fox-Pitt took his 2007 Burghley winner to the Olympics-- but after dressage & x-c, I wonder if he is second guessing himself that he should have taken one of his other horses.
I think Phillip is one of those riders who competed non-stop with 3 different horses at Foxhall Cup CCI***, Rolex CCI****, and Badminton CCI****. A lot of skill, endurance, and focus to keep going at the highest levels with different horses.

[snoopy]

corinne has a stellar record at horse trials but has not been so lucky at CCI level. She could have very well gone out there and done the job but then again maybe not. The problem for me and many was that she was not placed on the winter training list to receieve training in areas that have caused these erratic results in the CCI. Had she been given the opportunity to work on those areas I do believe that she would have contibuted greatly to the team effort.
She had a run out a fairhill last autumn and a fall at rolex this spring. She had a fantastic dressage and dobby had no jumping faults XC and still finsihed very well on time. He had an uncharacteristic 2 poles in SJ but corinne had cracked ribs and bleeding lungs from the fall and was riding in great pain and was unable to help him.
Heide fell but the fall was over looked because she has more international experience and is more of an known quantity.
I can understand the selectors decision not to concider Corinne, what I do not understand is the decision not to place her on the training list and give the team another horse and rider to choose from.

[poltroon]

How exactly is Kim fresh blood? She's been on teams for years. To our great pleasure. :)

If you look at the short list, http://useventing.com/competitions.php?section=fei&id=1523, it's an interesting question, if 'fresh blood' is what you're after. There are some up and coming names on there, different riders, but some of them, like Becky Holder and Heidi White, are around 40 - which is great, but if you're trying to think about "fresh blood" for future olympiads ahead, maybe you'd want someone earlier in their career. There are two riders in their 20's, Will Faudree, whose Antigua is 19, and Clark Montgomery, whose Up Spirit is 9, maybe neither optimal for these Games. Buck Davidson's horse is also young. Jennifer Wooten is the only one that might be in the sweet spot for ages, but I certainly think there were other riders who have done more and earned the trip.

I don't think I would've selected any differently. Sure miss that Pony.

[JERinNJ]

I find the reactions of most on this board pretty pathetic.

Other than Mandiba, the team the US sent over was experienced, and, for the most part, the top horse & rider teams in the country.

The bottom line is that yesterday was not a good day for the US eventing team. Instead of focusing on the positive: Gina Miles has been having the competition of her life on a horse many on this board shouldnt have gone because of his size, and Phillip Dutton and Connaught have been as solid as ever, everyone feels the need to pounce on those that had unfortunate problems.

I dont really think anyone expected to have to use Mandiba's scores going into the competition. His dressage was way better than I personally expected and, while the XC scores weren't ideal, I can now understand that Karen was put in a position to go big or go home: not an ideal situation for our most inexperienced horse! But, nonetheless, Mandiba got around safely and hopefully learned a ton. Hindsight is 20/20... bummer she couldnt have just taken the long routes on those two combinations, but, oh well.

It seemed like this would be Becky's year, and it is unfortunate that she had problems XC. This reminds me a lot of the past WEGs when Kim Severson had a runout that dropped her, and more or less the team, out of medal contention. This is probably the most depressing of all the misfortunes yesterday, as a brilliant round was shot to hell by one mistake on Becky's part. Hopefully she can redeem herself with clean SJing rounds tomorrow!

Ofcourse most people on here just want to blame Amy for all of our problems; and I do agree that she and Poggio were not acting as a team yesterday. Was Pogi pulling like a train yesterday? Without a doubt! Was their prematurely ended round hard to watch? Definitely. Was Amy riding to the best of her ability? Didnt seem that way. Anyway, this sucks. All I can say is thank goodness this didnt turn into a rotational, and boy is this one hell of a retirement competition for the experienced Poggio.

I basically doubt anyone saw this coming, and I think most should just be trying to channel positive energy towards Gina & McKinlaigh as well as towards the entire team for soundness come Tuesday. Gina is truly in medal contention! This classy pair are fabulous showjumpers and pose a serious threat to the top of the leaderboard for an individual medal!

Oh, and I have to add... huge bummer that Heidi and Farley or Bonnie & Merloch arent on the team. Had these horses stayed sound and on the team, we might've been in a different situation now. But, oh well, such is horses.

[KMErickson]

I've been a fan of Hinirch Romeike and Marius for a long time (Marius just has the sweetest face :):):)) and their ride was amazing!! It shows that you don't have to be a professional with a huge string to go out and compete. Watching him also got me thinking about our selection process: I remember reading Jen Wooten's blog and how unhappy the selectors (read: CMP) were with the fact that she only had one top horse and not a string. So, other WAYY less experienced horses with more experienced riders were chosen (like Buck as an alternate even though his horse had extremely minimal ***/**** experience). Why do we insist that our riders have strings of top horses? Why don't we just take the best combinations at a given selection period? It seems a little silly to me...:sigh:

[poltroon]

I am so excited for Gina and McKinleigh. I remember so well when she was first selected for the WEG team in 2002. It was a breakthrough moment for her, and we were so proud. I look forward to seeing her round - for some reason, the coverage I've gotten so far has completely skipped her.

I still remember us all drooling over his gorgeous Irishness at Training level at Ram Tap. Even so, never did I think we'd be cheering him at the Olympics!

So, go Gina!

[vineyridge]

Watching him also got me thinking about our selection process: I remember reading Jen Wooten's blog and how unhappy the selectors (read: CMP) were with the fact that she only had one top horse and not a string. So, other WAYY less experienced horses with more experienced riders were chosen (like Buck as an alternate even though his horse had extremely minimal ***/**** experience). Why do we insist that our riders have strings of top horses? Why don't we just take the best combinations at a given selection period? It seems a little silly to me...:sigh:

I dunno about this. Neither Becky Holder nor Gina Miles have a "String" of international caliber horses. And when soundness can come up and bite you in the butt, it's probably good to have another established horse to rely on for an established rider. JMHO.

[poltroon]

The other reason to have more horses is that it gets a rider more experience than one can get running only one horse. On the other hand, maybe you can give more attention to detail and training and partnership when there's only one horse.

Heidi White was also selected with just the one horse.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I am so excited for Gina and McKinleigh. I remember so well when she was first selected for the WEG team in 2002. It was a breakthrough moment for her, and we were so proud. I look forward to seeing her round - for some reason, the coverage I've gotten so far has completely skipped her.

I still remember us all drooling over his gorgeous Irishness at Training level at Ram Tap. Even so, never did I think we'd be cheering him at the Olympics!

So, go Gina!


They do have her entire dressage test on line....it was lovely and def. worth watching....he is a really drool worthy horse. Also some great comments between her and Sandy P. after the test. I'm hoping that I can find some of her xc when I get back on line at home tonight. Stadium should be really exciting. It really sounds like the xc did its job and made it a real competition.

[bambam]

I've been very pleased with the internet coverage whom every they chose to show....to be honest, i almost like seeing the non-US riders more since they are less familar to me....it's almost as a good a free lessons!

I did not mind the not showing US riders, except when Karen was on course and they showed about 3-4 minutes of 2 riders (Ingrid and Bordonne) in the vet box after xc. I mean does anybody regardless of nationality want to watch Ingrid trotting around after she was done rather than a rider jumping the course? I understand when they showed so little of Gina because Lucinda was on course at the same time, even if I wanted to see more Gina:)

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I did not mind the not showing US riders, except when Karen was on course and they showed about 3-4 minutes of 2 riders (Ingrid and Bordonne) in the vet box after xc. I mean does anybody regardless of nationality want to watch Ingrid trotting around after she was done rather than a rider jumping the course? I understand when they showed so little of Gina because Lucinda was on course at the same time, even if I wanted to see more Gina:)


OK...that would have annoyed me too. What was so interesting about the vet box???? A wet t-shirt contest and they were trying to pull in the male crowd????

[pwynnnorman]

Oh, I agree with that!! That's eventing. And we're 7th, not 10th. . .not that it matters. Many, probably most, of the riders who are in the top spots have had their share of disappointments and setbacks.

Gawd, I admire everyone who is out there trying!

100%!!!

When you think about it, each rider on our team made a huge contribution in one form or another--and I say that now, before stadium: Amy, first rider in the ring and on course, brought in a solid dressage score even though the judging (as poor Kyle Carter, IMO, experienced) might have been a lot tougher on the earlier rides; Gina and Phillip have done it all, no more to be said; Karen rode Mandiba with such skill and tact bringing what must have been a real team-uplifting dressage score, same with Becky--and Mandiba himself not only hung in there and trusted her to really come around in dressage, but actually got himself into trouble xc for being a bit too gung-ho. Clearly, everyone made significant contributions. It's jsut that the rest didn't fall together as it might have. Some of the current leaders had lucky breaks on course--really lucky ones. We just didn't.

[pwynnnorman]

I have to say, if I was disappointed in one rider the most, it would be Karen O'Connor. I'm very surprised that she took the fast routes with a very inexperienced horse. I thought her years of experience would have told her to go the long way, give her horse a good ride and let the time faults pile up. I'm especially surprised since she knew other team members did not have good results on cross country.

If anyone should have known better, it was KO.

Not for the obvious reasons, but for objective ones, I have to disagree with you, mbarrett. I keenly watched a horse so similar to Mandiba in so many ways be given the exact same ride by a rider also not unlike Karen in many ways. That horse is in eleventh place right now, but that placing could just as easily have been Mandiba's. What you aren't taking into account is that, once you are chosen, you ride FOR THE TEAM, not for your horse. THAT is why Karen took the fast routes. It would have been outrageous for her to have done anything else.

If you think horse first (like, give him a good go for the future), you shouldn't be on the team. You have responsibilities. Karen explained that she took the short route because of her team obligations--go around, as Lucinda Fredericks said somewhere--clocked up more than half the penalties of a run out anyway, so the reasoning is obvious: go for it, for the team score. Caution is for individuals. Maximizing your round is for the team.

[snoopy]

Not for the obvious reasons, but for objective ones, I have to disagree with you, mbarrett. I keenly watched a horse so similar to Mandiba in so many ways be given the exact same ride by a rider also not unlike Karen in many ways. That horse is in eleventh place right now, but that placing could just as easily have been Mandiba's. What you aren't taking into account is that, once you are chosen, you ride FOR THE TEAM, not for your horse. THAT is why Karen took the fast routes. It would have been outrageous for her to have done anything else.

If you think horse first (like, give him a good go for the future), you shouldn't be on the team. You have responsibilities. Karen explained that she took the short route because of her team obligations--go around, as Lucinda Fredericks said somewhere--clocked up more than half the penalties of a run out anyway, so the reasoning is obvious: go for it, for the team score. Blowing it would do no more harm than being cautious (except had they fallen).


But team orders are to ride to get round, ride for a team score...taking the direct route with a horse with such limited experience does nothing to help the team score when you end up with a fall or run out...time faults would be a better gamble. Her obligation to the team is to ride a round which will have the least amount of penalties in the end...taking the safe route at some fences is the better option as time does not cost as much as jump. Taking a safer route is not the same giving him a good go for the future.


I have no idea of the exact orders given to karen, but her position and order of start would suggest to me that she would have been advised to get round...at the expense of some time. I do not see the benefit of such a risk of going the fast routes when the team was suffering at that point. Or it could have been, we have nothing to lose go out and hope for the best. My money is on a slower safe round.

[azeventer]

Not for the obvious reasons, but for objective ones, I have to disagree with you, mbarrett. I keenly watched a horse so similar to Mandiba in so many ways be given the exact same ride by a rider also not unlike Karen in many ways. That horse is in eleventh place right now, but that placing could just as easily have been Mandiba's. What you aren't taking into account is that, once you are chosen, you ride FOR THE TEAM, not for your horse. THAT is why Karen took the fast routes. It would have been outrageous for her to have done anything else.

If you think horse first (like, give him a good go for the future), you shouldn't be on the team. You have responsibilities. Karen explained that she took the short route because of her team obligations--go around, as Lucinda Fredericks said somewhere--clocked up more than half the penalties of a run out anyway, so the reasoning is obvious: go for it, for the team score. Caution is for individuals. Maximizing your round is for the team.

Amen to that. I think most of us, never having ridden for The Team, forget that when you are at the Olympics, that team is your first responsibility. Since primarily most of us compete alone, or as a team with just our horse, that perspective of team responsability doesn't really enter into our thinking......just MHO, as a smurf and all........

[pwynnnorman]

What was the Criterion for Amy getting selected over someone like Kim.
Or even another younger rider, like Corrine.
What did Amy have that needed to be part of our Team???:confused::confused:

If you ask this about Amy, then you should ask it about Heidi White. But you shouldn't ask this because it wasn't just about them, it was about their tried and true, sound, consistent, SAVED for the games, international mounts.

It is well known that both Poggio and Northern Spy competed little because they had nothing to prove, nor did their riders. That's a fact. Alas, others DID have stuff to prove--and they succeeded in doing so. Then the selectors had to decide which type of proof would suit the circumstances best. Given that we were third after dressage and what happened in x-c couldn't have been anticipated any better than had a different set of horses been chosen (how would Dobbin, Tiperary Liadham or Ballynocastle have handled the tense atmostphere and scary stuff in dressage? How would their styles have changed on xc, as some suspect Poggio's did -- in terms of rideability -- for whatever reason?), I think the selectors' final reasoning was pretty clear and just as wise as any other options they might have had.

[Carol Ames]

Would you say the same about Karen? and Becky, or, are you art of the "get Amy" clique?




ginally Posted by Gnep http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3431830#post3431830) she did not, screwed it up completly, that was lousy riding

[Hannahsmom]

Folks...how about Gina! Lovely dressage test. I haven't watched yet but sounds like she had a great go xc too! And sounds like Phillip had a good round as well. It is a shame the US as a team isn't in contention....but come on people, there are two US riders who are not out of it yet! Cheer for them.

That's what I was thinking while reading this thread. I was pretty amazed with Gina's ride with that big horse. Can't wait to see more of it. And I would like to see more of Phillips too.

As for Amy, Karen, and Becky, I'm disappointed for them, not because of them.

[pwynnnorman]

But team orders are to ride to get round, ride for a team score...taking the direct route with a horse with such limited experience does nothing to help the team score when you end up with a fall or run out...time faults would be a better gamble. Her obligation to the team is to ride a round which will have the least amount of penalties in the end...taking the safe route at some fences is the better option as time does not cost as much as jump. Taking a safer route is not the same giving him a good go for the future.

I disagree. On this course, time faults were not the better gamble. As some did (like Lucinda Fredericks), you could easily clock up jsut as many faults in the long routes as a refusal would give you. And I am absolutely positive that few make decisions about which route to take based on whether their horse might fall. Refuse or run-out, yes, but there's no way Karen would even think that Mandiba would fall. Not only is he not that type of horse (to jump so poorly he'd fall--he'd stop first or run out), but surely she'd take into account his record and his style and calculate how very slim the chances were that he'd fall. I can't believe any of the top teams' riders put any thought to their good horses being so incapable that a possible fall should be factored into decisionmaking.

[poltroon]

But team orders are to ride to get round, ride for a team score...taking the direct route with a horse with such limited experience does nothing to help the team score when you end up with a fall or run out...time faults would be a better gamble. Her obligation to the team is to ride a round which will have the least amount of penalties in the end...taking the safe route at some fences is the better option as time does not cost as much as jump. Taking a safer route is not the same giving him a good go for the future.

When Karen went, she knew that the US was in trouble, and that they would need a good score from her to be in the top 3. A slow, safe ride, like Mark Todd's, would have the US standing 4th, maybe in contention for Bronze with a lot of good luck for us and bad luck for the Brits. Even if Comet had gotten around clean, we might be just nosing out the Brits for 3rd. The Aussies and the Germans are owning this competition.

[pwynnnorman]

Good point, poltroon (And does it ever enter your mind to wonder how the Poltroon would have done? I'd bet she'd have eaten up this course, like Brit did.)

I think what Karen said on camera afterward strongly implied that she saw her choices as being all or nothing. Tough choices, but that's probably one of the reasons she was chosen: tough lady able to make tough choices and carry on regardless of the outcome.

[snoopy]

I disagree. On this course, time faults were not the better gamble. As some did (like Lucinda Fredericks), you could easily clock up jsut as many faults in the long routes as a refusal would give you. And I am absolutely positive that few make decisions about which route to take based on whether their horse might fall. Refuse or run-out, yes, but there's no way Karen would even think that Mandiba would fall. Not only is he not that type of horse (to jump so poorly he'd fall--he'd stop first or run out), but surely she'd take into account his record and his style and calculate how very slim the chances were that he'd fall. I can't believe any of the top teams' riders put any thought to their good horses being so incapable that a possible fall should be factored into decisionmaking.


We are going to have to disagree here...A fall is not figured in but can be a consequence that needs to be taken account of. Amy's horse is not the type of horse to fall either but nearly did. Falls happen. Andrew was not betting on a fall either. Some more experienced horses were taking some of the slower routes. I did not mean to suggest that she take all the long options racking up huge time penalties. There are calulated risks and then there are poor decsions. With regards to teams and their top horses...well Karen's is not a top horse.

Time faults are a better gamble on this course as they are surely better than time and stop. Minimalize the risk of stop first. Time was never going to be achieved anyway. Those in good team placings have time and no jumping penalties

[snoopy]

Good point, poltroon (And does it ever enter your mind to wonder how the Poltroon would have done? I'd bet she'd have eaten up this course, like Brit did.)

I think what Karen said on camera afterward strongly implied that she saw her choices as being all or nothing. Tough choices, but that's probably one of the reasons she was chosen: tough lady able to make tough choices and carry on regardless of the outcome.


All or nothing is not the best choice....especially with her horse and the team standings when she went out. A safe ride would suggest to me that she would minimalize the risk of stop. Everyone had time. Not everyone had stops and time. Why risk the stop.

[Gnep]

Absolutely not Carol,
everybody made such a big story out of Lanie whats her name, AT made a pretty similar mistake and made several rather bad approaches befor.
From a rider of that caliber one can expect, that she adjusts when the first jumps are not going to well instead of barreling head on into the next jump.

KOC had a very tough asignement with a green horse, she made a bolt decision, that could have been just great, sometime one has to take a gamble in X-C. I understand that and do not second guess it.

Bad riding is one thing, making a bolt decision that turns out to be wrong is a nother thing.

I am second guessing the coaching

[poltroon]

I think the real problem for Karen was the refusal at 9, those amazing brush arrowheads after the downhill. (Two of the Canadians got in trouble there too.) My feed was constantly breaking up, but I didn't see any of the contenders take an option there.

Brian O'Connor wrote:
Next was the rookie Mandiba. Karen was giving him a super ride and then at fence 9, the downhill brush to skinny brush arrowheads, Mandiba launched over the first, got really strong the the skinny and ran out, taking down the flag with her.

[nirvana002]

I disagree. On this course, time faults were not the better gamble. As some did (like Lucinda Fredericks), you could easily clock up jsut as many faults in the long routes as a refusal would give you. And I am absolutely positive that few make decisions about which route to take based on whether their horse might fall. Refuse or run-out, yes, but there's no way Karen would even think that Mandiba would fall. Not only is he not that type of horse (to jump so poorly he'd fall--he'd stop first or run out), but surely she'd take into account his record and his style and calculate how very slim the chances were that he'd fall. I can't believe any of the top teams' riders put any thought to their good horses being so incapable that a possible fall should be factored into decisionmaking.

Come on, Wynn, every horse CAN fall. The best of the best can and have...has nothing to do with "what kind of horse it is". Yes, some are more careful than others, but seriously!

[snoopy]

Absolutely not Carol,
everybody made such a big story out of Lanie whats her name, AT made a pretty similar mistake and made several rather bad approaches befor.
From a rider of that caliber one can expect, that she adjusts when the first jumps are not going to well instead of barreling head on into the next jump.

KOC had a very tough asignement with a green horse, she made a bolt decision, that could have been just great, sometime one has to take a gamble in X-C. I understand that and do not second guess it.

Bad riding is one thing, making a bolt decision that turns out to be wrong is a nother thing.

I am second guessing the coaching


I would not take a bold decision/gamble when the team desperately needed as clear a round as possible. minimalize the risk of penalty.

[snoopy]

Come on, Wynn, every horse CAN fall. The best of the best can and have...has nothing to do with "what kind of horse it is". Yes, some are more careful than others, but seriously!


Exactly


Jill

Am I in left field on my thinking? You have experience with team orders...your thoughts?

[nirvana002]

Exactly


Jill

Am I in left field on my thinking? You have experience with team orders...your thoughts?

Thanks, get me in trouble!!! It is always hard to say without the first hand knowledge of what the team plan was or what the decisions were in the box. I would have thought with the run out at the skinny early in the course, it may have been a thought not to risk the angled brushes, since they had been the majority penalty getter on the course. That is my politically correct answer...thanks again!:lol:

jill

[Gnep]

snoopy,
thats why I question or second guess the coaching. The adjustments within the Team are made by the coaches, or should be made.
After AT, all US riders should have ridden for the Team purpose, except for GM, they all went for broke. Even Duttons horse was pushed hard, pretty much to the limit.

[subk]

What did Amy do to Qualify for the team??
Holy cow, people! Amy and Poggio may very well be the most decorated pair with the most international experience and most four star experience of any pair currently competing and sound not only in the U.S. but the world. How would you/could you NOT put them on the team?

Before you are critical of Karen I would suggest a look at the time penalties and how they affected the rankings. It is unlike any event I've seen. The fastest horse racked up almost 10 penalties. The average for the top horses was 14-18. Then look and down--the long routes were devastating on time. Karen was riding not to "finish" or "just get around"--having 3 out of 5 count changes the pressure and stratagey of that--she was riding to medal. Once she had a stop, had she then taken all the long routes it was possible that it would guarantee in time penalties what a refusal ended up costing her. It's the Olympics, personally, I think she had to take the risk.

I'm excited for Gina. Her horse can showjump like nobody's business, so I'm thinking positive thoughts!

[snoopy]

Thanks, get me in trouble!!! It is always hard to say without the first hand knowledge of what the team plan was or what the decisions were in the box. I would have thought with the run out at the skinny early in the course, it may have been a thought not to risk the angled brushes, since they had been the majority penalty getter on the course. That is my politically correct answer...thanks again!:lol:

jill


It may be politally correct...but it is one I agree with. Especially after the first run out...the though process does not make sense for the team.
But like I said, I have no idea to what mark advised her before the start.

[BLBGP]

Has there been any report about Poggio's condition today? Is he sound? It was impressive that he managed to stay on his feet.

Also, to those of you wondering about the lack of American rounds during the live feed, my guess is that the Oxygen broadcast tonight is going to be rather Amero-centric and they want to give us a reason to tune in.

[snoopy]

snoopy,
thats why I question or second guess the coaching. The adjustments within the Team are made by the coaches, or should be made.
After AT, all US riders should have ridden for the Team purpose, except for GM, they all went for broke. Even Duttons horse was pushed hard, pretty much to the limit.



Duttons horse was a proven four star horse, karen's was not and already having a run out one would assume you do not risk another. I keep saying this..EVERYONE had time, not everyone had stops. Time is a better gamle then because everyone had it. Why risk the extra jump penalties? The odd long rooute did not add 40 time penalties.

[subk]

...time faults would be a better gamble.
A slow safe run cost those that opted for it 30 to 40 (or more) in time penalties. It's not a very good gamble when the cost is so high.

http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C73CD/EQX003301.shtml#EQX003301

[snoopy]

A slow safe run cost those that opted for it 30 to 40 (or more) in time penalties. It's not a very good gamble when the cost is so high.

http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/EQ/C73CD/EQX003301.shtml#EQX003301


But that is better than time AND stop and the fact is she had one run out already. It is less a gamble because everyone else had time...it would be different if others had achieved time. I am giving up..we will have to disagree (again).

[WldnHrseCrzy03]

I got word from a few different sources that the US is in 7th place, not 10th. Just an FYI. :)

I can't comment on anyone's rides because I haven't watched it yet. I didn't catch the online broadcast and NBC's website wouldn't let me watch the video of XC that they have on there. But I will be tuned in to OXYGEN tonight!!

I'm bummed about Becky & Comet! :( I was really rooting for them! They are such an amazing team and their dressage test was AMAZING!!! Hopefully the US can make up ground in the Stadium round.

FINGERS CROSSED!!! :D

[subk]

But that is better than time AND stop and the fact is she had one run out already. It is less a gamble because everyone else had time...it would be different if others had achieved time. I am giving up..we will have to disagree (again).
Snoopy you could be right, but it is also possible that the short route was beleived to be easier for the particular horse. The whoa, go, turn, jump of a short ride can be hell--worse in heat and rain. And while yes everybody had time the top horses have +/-15 while the slow horses typically had +/-40. That's a spread I don't think I've seen before--even at an Olympics. My only point is that I don't think as arm chair quarterbacks we've got enough perspective to make a call.

[ss3777]

So watching the live feed (internet) last night was awesome. When I watched Mark Todd go, my initial thought was....... "wow, I guess the Olympic XC courses are not as hard as I would have imagined" then I saw the rest of the world go!!! Lots of great rides but Mark's ride really stood out for its smoothness and consistency. My eyes brimmed up watching Gina go, so fantastic!!! I missed the other US team members :(

Can the US possibly come back?

[Jazzy Lady]

I was suprised she chose to take the short route given she had a runout. If that fence had been shown to be riding well, then I could understand, but it was not riding well for horses that were tired or not completely confident. So there I was suprised. She was still riding well, and her actions resulted in a mere runout. I'm okay with that.

AT was not riding well. I am not an AT hater. Not at all. I love Poggio. He is a tough ride, but that's not new for her. She's ridden him for how long? She knows how he goes. She gave up, jumped ahead and threw him onto his forehand when he chipped. She chased for a long. She tried, gave up and instead of waiting and staying out of his way (which would have been just fine, IMHO), she went for it and he didn't. Sorry. It was poor riding. She made a mistake, she's human. But it was her mistake. I expected their experience to put them in the top 10. I think she was going for broke relying on his experience and wasn't riding the Poggio she had that day. That is my armchair qb observation. ;)

Gina was FABULOUS! Mac looked ready to go again.

[redlight]

And the USET Foundation funds HOW MUCH to the high performance event riders? I understand Poggio has his "own way" of going and I credit Amy for actually being able to ride him as I don't think there are too many that could ride that horse around a four star course. However, how many times can you run a horse like that and not have what happened today? I watched her round several times and okay I wasn't there but that horse had not an ounce of rideability to it. That downhill ride to the skinny was scary and she did little if anything to correct it afterwards. Were the riders all so focused on finishing within the time they forgot about balancing the horse?

If you want a riding lesson watch Mark Todd's round. He and the horse were in perfect harmony-not too ahead or behind the motion. Every jump came right out of stride and Mark's position was beautiful unlike so many riders I see today either leaning up their horses neck or slamming the horses kidney's with their seat and yanking the horses mouth for balance.

So can we get rid of CMP finally?

[mbarrett]

Thanks, get me in trouble!!! It is always hard to say without the first hand knowledge of what the team plan was or what the decisions were in the box. I would have thought with the run out at the skinny early in the course, it may have been a thought not to risk the angled brushes, since they had been the majority penalty getter on the course. That is my politically correct answer...thanks again!:lol:

jill

Great answer, Jill. That's why I'm surprised KO took the direct route to the angled brush fences at the end of the course, instead of the long route. Didn't Ingrid Klemke take the long route here? Or am I thinking of another German rider?

Note to all: Since opinions are being tossed around here like penny candy, I can toss my opinions around too.

[TexasTB]

Corinne had a fall at Rolex, so I think that took her out of contention for the squad.



So did Heidi White.

[Eventer-n-SC]

TBpalsx3--
Becky had 3...not sure where they were because the live feed cut away from her ride a lot. Think one of them was at the offset double brush near the end of the course and another at the crouching dragons. I saw 62 penalties...3 refusals and time.

[JERinNJ]

TBpalsx3--
Becky had 3...not sure where they were because the live feed cut away from her ride a lot. Think one of them was at the offset double brush near the end of the course and another at the crouching dragons. I saw 62 penalties...3 refusals and time.

This is not correct. Becky had one stop at the dragons, and then accidently crossed her path trying to reapproach.

[Lisa Cook]

I can understand the selectors decision not to concider Corinne, what I do not understand is the decision not to place her on the training list and give the team another horse and rider to choose from.

I know I'm coming here late, but I just noticed this...hasn't Corinne mentioned in the past that Dobbin doesn't travel well? I could have sworn I read that somewhere - maybe in COTH when she withdrew from Rolex a year or so ago when he came off the trailer lame?

I would think that the selectors would exlude any horse from the training list who doesn't travel well, just because of the nature of travel involved in getting to Hong Kong. But I'm not a selector, nor do I play one on tv. :)

[Ajierene]

I am going to preempt this with the fact that hindsight is always 20/20.

That being said.

She ended the day in 54th place with a score of 126.7

If she had not had the run out and the same time (which is reasonable to assume) she would have had 106.7 and ended the day tied for 45th with Jeferson Moreira.

Hindsight is 20/20 and Karen apologized to the team immediately afterward, but the decision was made on the fly and those decisions are tough to get correct.

[poltroon]

Mark Todd did have a beautiful round... but he is also standing 29th with 76.60.

I think some of the second guessing here has to do with the value you place on a 4th place finish vs. taking some risk of 7th or worse but trying to contend for 2nd or 3rd. I'm not saying either is right - indeed, I've stated earlier that any day where everyone comes home safe is a good day. It seems to me that the US didn't want 4th.

We won't really know until we see the show jumping, either. Some of those fast horses cross country might not come back so well.

Some of those riders in the top 10 had very lucky moments - Mary King barely made it through the double bullfinches at the pagodas, William Fox-Pitt has already apologized for the flyer at the last fence, and Irish Jester saved Megan Jones' bacon at the end.

And there's only two rails between first and 14th place, even if you get past the jog.

[subk]

I am going to preempt this with the fact that hindsight is always 20/20.

That being said.

She ended the day in 54th place with a score of 126.7

If she had not had the run out and the same time (which is reasonable to assume) she would have had 106.7 and ended the day tied for 45th with Jeferson Moreira.
And if we made that 20 point adjustment to the team score we would STILL be in 7th place. If you think the long route was a few seconds faster than the time taken for a refusal it might get us to 6th. Big whoop.

The ride that bites is the tug that Becky missed. That one cost us 3rd. But hey, it was a hard day-- sometimes you have days like that. It's the sport. It's the same reason a gold medal winner can end up swimming in the water jump at a H.T near you next month--and quiet frankly that's one of the things I love about it. I'm disappointed, but probably not nearly as much as Karen, Becky and Amy.

[Ajierene]

And if we made that 20 point adjustment to the team score we would STILL be in 7th place.

Yeah, I was just speculating with people saying she took the short route to 'ride for the team'. Just emphasizing that the short route is not necessarily the best decision for the team. There is no way she could have known the placement when she was out there. But whatever - these things happen.

[Sightunseen]

I would not take a bold decision/gamble when the team desperately needed as clear a round as possible. minimalize the risk of penalty.

I am guessing that it was a you need to be clean and fast for it to be worthwhile not a clean and slow or stops. And I dont think any UL rider seriously thinks "Hey my horse might eat $hit here" because if they do, they should NOT be competing that horse at that level.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

ok....I just watched Amy's trip. I don't see what many of you are talking about. She doesn't look all over her horse because she is un fit....she looks like she is battling with a freight train. I didn't see her give up.....I saw her on a run away doing the best that she could. And damn....she is strong and her hardest tugs are making no impact.

[snoopy]

I know I'm coming here late, but I just noticed this...hasn't Corinne mentioned in the past that Dobbin doesn't travel well? I could have sworn I read that somewhere - maybe in COTH when she withdrew from Rolex a year or so ago when he came off the trailer lame?

I would think that the selectors would exlude any horse from the training list who doesn't travel well, just because of the nature of travel involved in getting to Hong Kong. But I'm not a selector, nor do I play one on tv. :)


I have expained this before...dobby is NOT a poor traveler. Search "ASHTONS" here on this board and corinne herself will explain it.

[AiryFairy]

ok....I just watched Amy's trip. I don't see what many of you are talking about. She doesn't look all over her horse because she is un fit....she looks like she is battling with a freight train. I didn't see her give up.....I saw her on a run away doing the best that she could. And damn....she is strong and her hardest tugs are making no impact.

I saw her rating him, HARD, or trying to, and getting absolutely nowhere. Anyone who's ever been on a horse like that who just sets his neck and says "eff you, I'm going", can sympathize. Good grief, I've never seen so many pulley reins as I did yesterday coming down the hill to the coop and then the double brush! Overall I felt a huge sense of relief that neither she or any of the other riders, and more importantly, horses, were not injured.

I was also left with the feeling, once again, that horses are just so bloody amazing. Watching them plow into the water and blast over an in and out with out missing a beat is inspiring. How they ever figure out what we want, I don't know, but bless 'em, they try.

[KinetonKritter]

ok....I just watched Amy's trip. I don't see what many of you are talking about. She doesn't look all over her horse because she is un fit....she looks like she is battling with a freight train. I didn't see her give up.....I saw her on a run away doing the best that she could. And damn....she is strong and her hardest tugs are making no impact.
couldn't agree with you more!!!

[poltroon]

I think, having just watched the broadcast, that our thoughts here are heavily influenced by what the producer chose to show.

For example, I didn't see on the live feed Lucinda Fredricks having a huge scary moment in the middle of the course. With Karen and Mandiba, all they showed us were the bad moments - but by Karen's account, he was eating up the rest of the course like a lion. Maybe people would feel better about it if they could see those good fences.

With Amy, now having seen the fall, the actual fall looks unlucky to me. Yes, he was pulling like a freight train and completely unrideable, but Amy was doing everything in her power to put him together, and the fence where they fell looked like he would save it as he has so many times, as so many horses all day saved it. She would have been very lucky not to have some problem, but I'm surprised that the fall happened there. And I'm glad they got home safe.

And I'm not following exactly how Becky got her second refusal. It didn't seem to me like she crossed her path.

[Gnep]

I understand your point, snoopy, but I also can see the reason for KOC decision, I like the boltness of it, I would do the same thing, with a 20 plus time aready in the bag and a horse that feels ok, go for it.
Toddy Boy and Fredericks were in a completly differant position. They were first riders out they had to put in solid rides to anker their teams on, on top they were so to speak the test riders.
Take Thompson, Kraut Thompson, he was the sacrificial lamb, his problem at the bushed and the good condition of his horse, probably, decided how the rest of the team rode.
Lucky for the Germans that their lowest score after dressage was first and the big guns that followed having his experiance and the coaching input were able to put in those rides.
T. having the run out, was probably exactly the information Klimke needed, thats why she was going so hard in the first half, making time for the option.

[Sannois]

How did Amy get on the team?

Ok, I will be the jerk and say it: I think it's more about CMP than Poggio.

I am completely ready for a regime change. Get CMP and his buddies out of there and get some fresh blood. Kim, etc.

Gina (who should never have been there with such a big horse, remember???) schooled our big names by respecting the horse and respecting the course. Heck, the full time dentist from Germany schooled our big names. Enough with the names, let's get new talent.

Becky is just sad. I was so thrilled for her to be on the team, but she can't focus to finish. I love her and will clinic with her regardless, but I so wanted it for her.

KOC, love her, but she's not immortal. She can't do miracles. Poor decisions all around. And Amy was just terrifying and embarrassing. Event W-F-P (not American but a big name) struggled.

And Philip, our best American rider, is still showing us how strong Aussie riding is. We NEED new blood!!

Interesting points.
The aussies and New zealanders make us look sad. Hell even the italians look better! :eek:
On another note its cool to see how many countries have eventing teams.
Even China.. Though they had a fall.
An aside I thought Andrew Nicholson really pushed Lord Killington,
That horse gave it all, even tried to get over that last brush where he fell, he looked just plum exhausted! :no:

[poltroon]

I thought the New Zealanders had a day as bad as we did.

[Jenne]

My rule for criticizing others is, "Keep your mouth shut unless you compete at the same level!!!" Anyone can sit at there computer and "WATCH" The Olympians ride, but do you know what it actually takes to compete at that level?? More than an internet connection and some crazy ideas I promise. You are all a bunch of vultures waiting for someone to pounce on. Get off your computer and go try it then please post video. (ha ha ha ha) Yes I just joined today because I am sick of these know it all posts.:winkgrin:

[shea'smom]

For my two cents. I could not get the live feed to work here in an apparent dead zone..... so I followed the thread last night.
I admit to being very disgusted and a bit peeved with Amy, Karen and Becky.
Then I saw the program tonight.
Now, I admit, I was an idiot.
Poggio has always been his own boy and Amy has brought him to many successes, including medals for the US.
He was too tough for his own good yesterday. He could have just as easily stayed on his feet and we would be singing Amy's praises today and comparing Poggio to the great Murphy Himself.
As for Becky, she took one too many tugs. I have occasionally done that, like every time I jump, so I won't crucify her. It was a momentary bad decision.
Karen is Karen, she has done way too much to be critisized by anyone on this board. She had to make quick decisions as to what would get her home with the best score for the team. If she made a mistake, she has alot of good to her name to balance that out.
So, I am proud of their efforts and I hope things go well for them in Show Jumping.

[gottagrey]

Just watched some of the X-country on Oxygen - amazing they showed that much w/ very little commercial interruption. It's quite easy for us to sit here and armchair QB someone else's riding. The commentators were saying what a fabulous X-Country rider Andrew Nicholson was - no one would dispute that and no sooner did they finish talking about how superb he is X-country did he and his horse do a faceplant at the next to last jump! Karen O'Connor - another had an unfortunate run-out. At this level what with the traveling, the heat, the humidity who knows what kind of toll that could take on horse and rider ? Unfortunately there can be a lot more variables on a situation that what meets the eye. So before any of us become too harsh - let's walk a mile in their shoes - I doubt if many of us could do much better than any of those competing today.

[JAM]

I agree that the problem wasn't as much lack of rider fitness as it was intermittently (a) letting the horse fly at fences that weren't fly fences and (b) ripping the horse's face out. Even putting the fall aside, the fences that they showed on the live feed were not pretty to watch. I can't say I've ridden a strong horse at that speed over those kinds of fences, but I have ridden strong horses, and I can say that the tug harder approach to making a horse slow down is a vicious circle in which the horse pulls more, the rider tugs harder, etc., until the tugs no longer have an effect -- the horse is always stronger in the end. I contrast this with, for example, Todd's ride, which hardly ever deviated from the same rhythm throughout. Mary King had the exact same issue with King William in Barcelona -- experienced, successful combination where the horse was a pulling freight train that day -- and, while she had some time faults, she got around clean jumping, with no scary moments and in a much more rhythmical looking fashion that AT did yesterday.

(Incidentally, while I would not have put her on the team due to the LS incident if it were my decision to make, I do not for a moment question that her record of success with Poggio more than qualified her to be there with him. I am wondering whether all the stress and fallout of the LS incident had some effect on her psyche in yesterday's ride.)

ok....I just watched Amy's trip. I don't see what many of you are talking about. She doesn't look all over her horse because she is un fit....she looks like she is battling with a freight train. I didn't see her give up.....I saw her on a run away doing the best that she could. And damn....she is strong and her hardest tugs are making no impact.

[flyingchange]

Yeah, I just watched Amy's ride as well and I also do not see what all the criticism here is about. The horse was pulling like a MF and she was working very hard. That fall was very unlucky. IMHO, he was being a bit of a shit. Totally tuning her out. Yeah, he def could have used a SC. I could see her mind racing a mile a minute. Perhaps he just doesn't like Hong Kong. I'm glad they are OK.

I thought she did a damn good job. She probably should have retired after the drop to the skinny where he totally tuned her out. But imagine the $hit she would have gotten if she had done that. Poor girl. That's eventing at the Olympics I guess.

[snoopy]

but do you know what it actually takes to compete at that level??


Ah...actually yes I do....I have ridden some of the toughest advanced tracks in the UK up to three star level. Many friends are current and past Olympians..so Yes I do feel qualified to share my opinion. You may not like it or agree with it but that is your problem. I am not saying that I am always right, but I do stand my opinions.

[Ajierene]

For my two cents. I could not get the live feed to work here in an apparent dead zone..... so I followed the thread last night.
I admit to being very disgusted and a bit peeved with Amy, Karen and Becky.
Then I saw the program tonight.
Now, I admit, I was an idiot.
Poggio has always been his own boy and Amy has brought him to many successes, including medals for the US.
He was too tough for his own good yesterday. He could have just as easily stayed on his feet and we would be singing Amy's praises today and comparing Poggio to the great Murphy Himself.
As for Becky, she took one too many tugs. I have occasionally done that, like every time I jump, so I won't crucify her. It was a momentary bad decision.
Karen is Karen, she has done way too much to be critisized by anyone on this board. She had to make quick decisions as to what would get her home with the best score for the team. If she made a mistake, she has alot of good to her name to balance that out.
So, I am proud of their efforts and I hope things go well for them in Show Jumping.

I watched the live feed last night, but started second guessing my thoughts on Amy's ride after reading the thread. After watching it today - Amy was having a tough time with Poggio and while the fall was unfortunate and not unforeseen, it looked like she was having trouble with him and working on him.

Becky's was just what one might say - stupid mistake - which she admitted. It was one of those things, one tug to many.

Karen was similar and as I mentioned earlier and it was a decision that proved to be wrong in hindsight, but on course it is tough to make the 'correct' decision on the fly. Her first refusal looked like the horse slipped or lost his balance a bit down the hill.

[glfprncs]

I think my frustration with all the negativity that is currently bombarding the eventing boards regarding the Olympic team/CMP/Amy/etc. is that many seem to feel that the horses and riders in question are machines, instead of humans and horses.

While we would hope that the selectors did their best to choose what they felt would be a strong U.S. squad, in the end (and we all know this because we spend time with horses every day) we have to realize that as riders, sometimes as the humans that we are, we make mistakes. Sometimes, if we're lucky, our horses jump in and save our a#&es. Sometimes they don't, because they're not machines either; they're living, breathing, animals who are doing their best to do what we're asking of them.

Bad days happen to the best. For those of you who remember Mark Todd and Charisma winning gold in 84 and soundly destroying the competition in Seoul in 88, do you remember what happened in Gawler in 86 at the World's between Olympic victories? Yep, they fell. And Mark will be the first to tell you that he got the line wrong. Had he ridden a line at the water 4 feet to the right, Podge would have had enough room to fit in a stride, rather than trying to bounce, and probably wouldn't have fallen.

That was also the same year that the U.S. team, coming off a gold medal team win (and silver individually with Karen Stives) seemed to hit rock bottom. Karen Stives rode Flying Colours, who fell. Karen (Lende) O'Connor rode Lutin V (who fell). Bruce Davidson was spun at the first jog with Dr. Peaches. Torrance Watkins on Finvarra smacked his head into the water jump logs, and because she was riding 'for the team' continued around with blood coming from his nose and splattering her breeches and his breastplate. Mike Plumb was the highest U.S. finisher on Blue Stone, and he was riding with broken ribs as an individual, because they didn't feel he was up 'for the team spot' given his injuries from a previous run in Australia.

So here was a team, who 2 years earlier was at the top of the sport, was the best, and at another event not much later, couldn't finish a team. That's horses folks. You have your highs and your lows, and you all know this. Sadly, the U.S. team (with the exception of Gina and Philip) is having a low, but that doesn't mean that the individuals and horses chosen were the absolute wrong people for the job.

Many horse/rider combinations out there yesterday simply had lucky breaks. Becky could've had one of those, but it just didn't go her way. Poggio was going 'guns a blazin,' but it caught up to him and it wasn't their day. Karen was trying for a team miracle on a young, inexperienced horse at the level, and it just wasn't their day. It happens. Unfortunately, it happened on the day for these individuals when all of equestrian America was watching (and waiting to pounce at any mistake).

[flutie1]

I will take ALL of you a more seriously when I see that you've "walked in their shoes." Have you felt the pressure of riding for your country? Are you an Olympian?

Didn't think so. Riding "at the level" - even for those of you who may have - is a far cry from riding at the Olympics and knowing that there are a bunch of srmchair quarterbacks back at home writing on a board how they should have done it better.

Really folks - get a grip!

Flutie

[vineyridge]

Question relating to the course.

I haven't been able to watch any of the XC yet--going to my aunt's tomorrow and see what I can find on her speedy computer, but--

Did the shortness of the course and the packed in number of jumps make a difference, at least with Poggio?

Most short format courses start out slow and relatively easy, with enough distance/time for the rider to settle the horse in to the meat of the questions that will come up later. When you have a tough horse like Poggio who doesn't get worked down by A-C before starting on XC, wouldn't the fact that there were 8 jumps packed into the first minute or so mean that he would never have the time and distance he needed THAT day to settle into his job?

Possibility? As I said, I haven't seen the course; I've only read what y'all have said about it.

[gottagrey]

Beautifully said GLFPNCS !!

And speaking of riding stupid and making dumb mistakes -what about David O'Connor looking somewhat dazed and confused for his showjumping at Sydney - very nearly cost him his Gold - Bettina Hoy also made a huge silly,dumb mistake which did cost her her gold in Athens. I'm not criticizing either of those 2 riders - just making a point. I think KOC said it best, I think I read it in their book, Life in the Galloping Lane - "it's a short trip from the top to the bottom and I've had a lot round trip flights" So true in so many ways.

[snoopy]

I will take ALL of you a more seriously when I see that you've "walked in their shoes." Have you felt the pressure of riding for your country? Are you an Olympian?

Didn't think so. Riding "at the level" - even for those of you who may have - is a far cry from riding at the Olympics and knowing that there are a bunch of srmchair quarterbacks back at home writing on a board how they should have done it better.

Really folks - get a grip!

Flutie


Not "should" have, "could" have...there is a difference. As far as discussing that...well it is done on TV forums, in magazines, etc. Because someone who is not comfortable sharing their opinions or has not ridden past the training level takes offence well that is their hang up. People will debate sport and performance expecially when these athletes represent their sport and their country.

If you do not like what is on telly, don't watch...if you do not like what is in the papers, don't read, and if you do not like my post, there is the ignore function. Not one of my posts has been mean towards any rider (read them again), I am only sharing my opinion and how I see things...just like everyone. If that offends your sense of hero worship, well that is something you have to deal with.

[magnolia73]

Bottom line- they are indeed all human and make mistakes. But you know, people like to look at what went wrong- I think it is human nature. There were pretty disappointing rides/mistakes. I think people may just feel let down. I'm sure they were/are under intense pressure- I would not have wanted to be that poor Chinese rider! But you know- the price of all the rah rah when you win is the griping when you lose. And is pretty hard not to be disappointed. And its always interesting to speculate.

No, not many of us have experienced that pressure- but the reason we choose these people is at least partially because they can handle the pressure. That's why all that money gets put toward their training, they get sponsors and nice horses. They are to some degree expected to perform. It isn't some kid in pony club. They are professional athletes paid to perform. I imagine that not one of them would give much attention or care to our words and might even agree or have a laugh. They should worry when we don't care enough to be disappointed.

At any rate, lets hope we come home with an individual medal tomorrow! Because it is clearly more fun to win.

[BaliBandido]

Not "should" have, "could" have...there is a difference. As far as discussing that...well it is done on TV forums, in magazines, etc. Because someone who is not comfortable sharing their opinions or has not ridden past the training level takes offence well that is their hang up. People will debate sport and performance expecially when these athletes represent their sport and their country.

If you do not like what is on telly, don't watch...if you do not like what is in the papers, don't read, and if you do not like my post, there is the ignore function. Not one of my posts has been mean towards any rider (read them again), I am only sharing my opinion and how I see things...just like everyone. If that offends your sense of hero worship, well that is something you have to deal with.

You freakin rock:yes:

[LexInVA]

Not "should" have, "could" have...there is a difference. As far as discussing that...well it is done on TV forums, in magazines, etc. Because someone who is not comfortable sharing their opinions or has not ridden past the training level takes offense well that is their hang up. People will debate sport and performance especially when these athletes represent their sport and their country.

If you do not like what is on telly, don't watch...if you do not like what is in the papers, don't read, and if you do not like my post, there is the ignore function. Not one of my posts has been mean towards any rider (read them again), I am only sharing my opinion and how I see things...just like everyone. If that offends your sense of hero worship, well that is something you have to deal with.

Woof!

[west5]

I don't think people are being particularly negative. This is a major sporting event.

Think about the gazillions of shows, magazines, web-sites that exist dedicated to picking apart every baseball, football and basketball game, player and coaching decision. This is just the "equestrian" version.

No one is calling up the riders' moms and telling them their kids suck, just debating various choices made by the riders/coaches.

Also, I think there are a significant number of people who wanted a slightly different team roster and given the teams performance feel that others could have done the same if not better. I don't actually feel this way. I don't mean to be unpatriotic but I'm actually finding watching the riders from all the other countries just as if not more interesting than our own.

[NCRider]

Did anyone notice if any of the other riders took the left option on fence 9 where Karen had her problem and where Amy's problems started. It seemed like the other riders I saw took the right option. I wonder if the hill was steeper heading down to the left option because both Karen and Amy seemed to have some balance/rein slippage issues coming off the fence at the top and down the hill that I didn't see from other riders.

[whitewolfe001]

He was soooo close to falling - clever footwork on his part. And she was almost right under his forelegs.... I was just relieved to see neither was hurt.

[yellow rose]

I watched it on oxygen tonight... it didn't really look like any of the horses were jumping the fences well. some very good jumpers had some very scary fences. i think the fences could have been made more jumpable and encouraged a better shape for the horses.

to me it seemed that Poggio was dropping his withers very badly before the fences, starting from the beginning. speculating of course, but perhaps there is a bigger (soundness) issue going on rather than lack of riding ability ?

[Sannois]

You freakin rock:yes:

Snoopy You are my Hero!! :yes:

[kbbarn]

I agree with the other comment - did seem like some of the horses were not jumping well. I heard a lot of horses rubbing, kept expecting one to fall. I wonder if it is the heat + humidity + smoggy air ( or I hear that the hazy air is being called 'mist').

I did see Amy's fall. I am not sure if stress had anything to do with it but her riding looked very tense. And not to pick on riding style, but she seemed like she was almost standing up in her stirrups and bracing against the horse. Does she always ride like that?

[snoopy]

And I dont think any UL rider seriously thinks "Hey my horse might eat $hit here" because if they do, they should NOT be competing that horse at that level.

Ah, are you actually an event rider??? The purpose of walking the course is to make a decision as to the best line for your horse. Some choose different routes for that very reason. Ever heard of the alternative route?!! Shocking!!!

[quietann]

Did anyone notice if any of the other riders took the left option on fence 9 where Karen had her problem and where Amy's problems started. It seemed like the other riders I saw took the right option. I wonder if the hill was steeper heading down to the left option because both Karen and Amy seemed to have some balance/rein slippage issues coming off the fence at the top and down the hill that I didn't see from other riders.

I saw one or two riders take it, and neither were BNRs.

[snoopy]

I saw one or two riders take it, and neither were BNRs.



Aren't they BNR by virtue of bring at the Olympics? I would think that those riders are BNRs in thier own countries....

[RiddleMeThis]

Ok forgive me if this is out of place, but this thread appears to be about her so I wanted to post my thoughts on her ride.

I have never partaken in an AT thread. I may have posted on her ONCE before this.

Watching her ride even as she started off my thoughts were wow she is going fast! Faster than everyone before her it seemed. As she came up to the brush combo it looked to me that she was off balance. Leaning to far forward and couldnt get herself up and back and balanced enough to properly check Poggio. She basically looked like a bobble head as one of my friends put it.

Then she hits the brush slips the reins and continues to lean forward and be really off balance.

She never looks like she regains any resemblance of balance going to the next fence. She still elans forward her reins appeared to be too long, and Poggio continues to get away from her because she cant balance herself properly. She screws him up he catches a leg and then they fall.

What is everyones opinion on that? Is that the way you saw it happen or am I completely off?

[LexInVA]

Aren't they BNR by virtue of bring at the Olympics? I would think that those riders are BNRs in thier own countries....

They are all big in Japan. :p

[quietann]

My apologies, I really mis-stated that! I should have said "riders from countries where there is less upper level eventing going on!" Mea culpa ....

[monstrpony]

I think my frustration with all the negativity that is currently bombarding the eventing boards regarding the Olympic team/CMP/Amy/etc. is that many seem to feel that the horses and riders in question are machines, instead of humans and horses.

While we would hope that the selectors did their best to choose what they felt would be a strong U.S. squad, in the end (and we all know this because we spend time with horses every day) we have to realize that as riders, sometimes as the humans that we are, we make mistakes. Sometimes, if we're lucky, our horses jump in and save our a#&es. Sometimes they don't, because they're not machines either; they're living, breathing, animals who are doing their best to do what we're asking of them.

Bad days happen to the best. For those of you who remember Mark Todd and Charisma winning gold in 84 and soundly destroying the competition in Seoul in 88, do you remember what happened in Gawler in 86 at the World's between Olympic victories? Yep, they fell. And Mark will be the first to tell you that he got the line wrong. Had he ridden a line at the water 4 feet to the right, Podge would have had enough room to fit in a stride, rather than trying to bounce, and probably wouldn't have fallen.

That was also the same year that the U.S. team, coming off a gold medal team win (and silver individually with Karen Stives) seemed to hit rock bottom. Karen Stives rode Flying Colours, who fell. Karen (Lende) O'Connor rode Lutin V (who fell). Bruce Davidson was spun at the first jog with Dr. Peaches. Torrance Watkins on Finvarra smacked his head into the water jump logs, and because she was riding 'for the team' continued around with blood coming from his nose and splattering her breeches and his breastplate. Mike Plumb was the highest U.S. finisher on Blue Stone, and he was riding with broken ribs as an individual, because they didn't feel he was up 'for the team spot' given his injuries from a previous run in Australia.

So here was a team, who 2 years earlier was at the top of the sport, was the best, and at another event not much later, couldn't finish a team. That's horses folks. You have your highs and your lows, and you all know this. Sadly, the U.S. team (with the exception of Gina and Philip) is having a low, but that doesn't mean that the individuals and horses chosen were the absolute wrong people for the job.

Many horse/rider combinations out there yesterday simply had lucky breaks. Becky could've had one of those, but it just didn't go her way. Poggio was going 'guns a blazin,' but it caught up to him and it wasn't their day. Karen was trying for a team miracle on a young, inexperienced horse at the level, and it just wasn't their day. It happens. Unfortunately, it happened on the day for these individuals when all of equestrian America was watching (and waiting to pounce at any mistake).


Long quote, but what is said in it bears repeating. I think this kind of "spectator experience" is what keeps many of us out of this discussion. I can think of very rational reasons why each of the problems happened--Poggio was spared many of the prep runs and is perhaps the rare horse who should have been out there running, it sounds like he was just unridable this time; Karen has explained her choice and while it turned out to be the "wrong" one, perhaps, I respect her experience and her reasoning--the "team" factor; Becky was unlucky, perhaps the pressure was an issue for her as she has a bit less experience at these things (how can you look at what Becky has done to get herself to the Olympics and NOT respect the heck out of her, no matter the outcome???). So it goes. That's life with horses. Our teams HAVE been thru this before, they will again. I hate that these things happened, but there are far worst things that could have happened and all will live to run another day. I'm happy; not ecstatic, but ... so it goes.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Ok forgive me if this is out of place, but this thread appears to be about her so I wanted to post my thoughts on her ride.

I have never partaken in an AT thread. I may have posted on her ONCE before this.

Watching her ride even as she started off my thoughts were wow she is going fast! Faster than everyone before her it seemed. As she came up to the brush combo it looked to me that she was off balance. Leaning to far forward and couldnt get herself up and back and balanced enough to properly check Poggio. She basically looked like a bobble head as one of my friends put it.

Then she hits the brush slips the reins and continues to lean forward and be really off balance.

She never looks like she regains any resemblance of balance going to the next fence. She still elans forward her reins appeared to be too long, and Poggio continues to get away from her because she cant balance herself properly. She screws him up he catches a leg and then they fall.

What is everyones opinion on that? Is that the way you saw it happen or am I completely off?


she didn't look out of balance...she looked like she was sitting on a horse pulling like a train and UNrideable. She was not asking him to go the speed he was going. She was battling with him the way you need to when your horse is unresponsive (and you are on a xc course that will last more than 8 LONG minutes). Short of pulling him up (which I'm not sure she could do) she was doing what she could on a run away. I saw her do mulitple pully reins in proper form...with all of her weight....and got NO response. I've sat on horses like that before....they are bloody dangerous and while you do what you can....you mostly hope that they stay on their feet. He was getting worse and worse and on a technical course like that one....it was just a matter of time before he got into trouble. After basically leaving a stride out to that arrowhead (fence before his fall)....I'd say that increased his over confidence in himself (basically he was being a cocky bugger)....and when they are like that, the fences do not back them off and Amy didn't have a prayer of getting him back under control.


The horse/rider combinations that looked smooth and easy were the horses that were also very rideable. That sort of course really rewards and favors it.

[starboard]

It may be politally correct...but it is one I agree with.

And you are?


when The Team needs an anonymous name dropper to tell them what they should be doing, I bet they'll call you first

[snoopy]

don't you have rising trot to learn....

[bludini]

Did anyone notice if any of the other riders took the left option on fence 9 where Karen had her problem and where Amy's problems started. It seemed like the other riders I saw took the right option. I wonder if the hill was steeper heading down to the left option because both Karen and Amy seemed to have some balance/rein slippage issues coming off the fence at the top and down the hill that I didn't see from other riders.Seems like the turn from there was wider from the "left" option (which would be the right option from the riders POV) Since the course was so tight, that could be the deciding factor coming down that hill.

[LexInVA]

And you are?


Oh no you didn't! That's the S-N-O-O-P D-O double G. The beagle with the look of the Eagle!

[Pixie Dust]

oh dear!

[Sannois]

don't you have rising trot to learn....

You know for the folks that assume that some people on here are not upper level eventers or people in the know, What makes you so sure? And why even question, because you dont agree with them doesn't mean they are not knowledgeble or are telling the truth.
Everyone is not a arm chair eventer, but I have a feeling the people making comments the likes of the one made at snoopy are! :lol::yes:

[flyingchange]

she didn't look out of balance...she looked like she was sitting on a horse pulling like a train and UNrideable. She was not asking him to go the speed he was going. She was battling with him the way you need to when your horse is unresponsive (and you are on a xc course that will last more than 8 LONG minutes). Short of pulling him up (which I'm not sure she could do) she was doing what she could on a run away. I saw her do mulitple pully reins in proper form...with all of her weight....and got NO response. I've sat on horses like that before....they are bloody dangerous and while you do what you can....you mostly hope that they stay on their feet. He was getting worse and worse and on a technical course like that one....it was just a matter of time before he got into trouble. After basically leaving a stride out to that arrowhead (fence before his fall)....I'd say that increased his over confidence in himself (basically he was being a cocky bugger)....and when they are like that, the fences do not back them off and Amy didn't have a prayer of getting him back under control.


The horse/rider combinations that looked smooth and easy were the horses that were also very rideable. That sort of course really rewards and favors it.

exactly.

[ccoronios]

"Why do we insist that our riders have strings of top horses? Why don't we just take the best combinations at a given selection period?"

Could this be because we don't have a USET any more - just a group of separate entities with their own trainers, who are expected to supply their own mounts. Call me old, call me old-fashioned - I hardly think I'm the only one who misses the days of the USET.

[pwynnnorman]

"Why do we insist that our riders have strings of top horses? Why don't we just take the best combinations at a given selection period?"

Could this be because we don't have a USET any more - just a group of separate entities with their own trainers, who are expected to supply their own mounts. Call me old, call me old-fashioned - I hardly think I'm the only one who misses the days of the USET.

Hey, given the results, maybe they'll can that assumption?

Maybe, just maybe, there are actually significant advantages to NOT being responsible for a huge string (like knowing and being known BY your horse really, really well)?

[starboard]

Didn't actually disagree with the man. I just find the constant references needing to protect his identity while competing for the individual gold medal in namedropping a bit tedious.

I am an advanced-level tedius judge, FWIW.

[snoopy]

Didn't actually disagree with the man. I just find the constant references needing to protect his identity while competing for the individual gold medal in namedropping a bit tedious.

I am an advanced-level tedius judge, FWIW.


A clever advanced level tedius judge would be expected to employ the ignore function should he/she wish FWIW.

[starboard]

much harder to judge that way. Judge says contestant may do same, if contestant does not like feedback.
:)

You haven't mentioned anybody in a few posts though, you're barely in contention for Bronze now :(

[snoopy]

[QUOTE=starboard;3437047
:)
You haven't mentioned anybody in a few posts though, you're barely in contention for Bronze now :([/QUOTE]


That is because you find it tedious...and I do not want to continue to offend.

[JER]

If this is COTH Idol and starboard is the judge and snoopy is the contestant...

I'm calling the 1-800 to vote for snoopy. :D

[poltroon]

I'm with glfprncs on all this... it's just how it goes sometimes. It's easy to say that Mandiba was too young for the part... but then look at Miner's Frolic stepping up for the Bronze.

Frankly, it was a very very tough competition. The winners rode brilliantly AND were lucky. I'm pretty satisfied. It's no shame losing to that great German team, with Hinrich and Ingrid leading the way. I was sad when Ingrid had her rail for her individual standing. I was sad when Mary King had hers. I was elated for all three individual medalists. It was great riding by great riders. The Aussies got 5 around with solid scores, and the Brits were terrific too. They all earned those medals fair and square.

There will be another day for the Americans. And we didn't even come home empty-handed.

[NeverTime]

Good post, poltroon. That sums it up.

[cyberbay]

To me, I don't think this modern style of xc course suits a horse like Poggio, or at least, he hasn't had a chance yet to adapt to it. He's so exciting to watch jump -- b/c of his unconventionality -- but the jumping efforts come up so rapidly in this new style, and he just may either not be suited for it or he just needs more practise with the rapid-fire set-up of jumps.

I was getting the impression that Amy was taking as the #1 priority to minimize the time faults out there on course, and maybe banking on her relationship w/Poggio to make it happen. Oh, well. I'm sorry for her, b/c there can't be too many more championships left in Poggio, as he's getting older, and it's great to go out on a positive note.

Now, whether Karen should have been there with Mandiba... Not the best choice given his low experience, but a recognizable choice given the numerous personal ties to the governing body and Team.

[tx3dayeventer]

Now, whether Karen should have been there with Mandiba... Not the best choice given his low experience, but a recognizable choice given the numerous personal ties to the governing body and Team.

I bring it up again...

Who else would they have sent?? It was between Karen & Buck. Everyone else on the "list" was out with off/lame horses.

Maybe they should have had more people in Europe so they would have had a broader selection. How bout Jennifer Wooten?? Or a number of other riders at the mandatory outing at the Fork.

I'm just saying. They dug themselves a hole by excluding proven horse/riders so they got to the point that it was between a VERY experienced (team) rider on a green-to-the-level horse and a not-so-experienced (Team experience that is) rider on an even greener-to-the-level horse.

Jennifer was a not-so-experienced (team experience) rider on an experienced-to-the-level horse. Why not pick her?

[Pixie Dust]

I agree Poltroon. They worked hard and tried, and I'm sure they will analyze everthing they did and learn from it, but there is some luck involved too. Humans make mistakes, and so do horses. Not that you can ever blame a horse for making a mistake, but they aren't machines no matter how well trained they are. Anyway, the Germans totally rocked it, so no one should feel bad losing to that team. They were awesome!

[poltroon]

If we'd sent Jennifer Wooten we surely would've done better because it's obvious that the way to win more Team medals is to pack it with Californians. ;) :D

Actually, though I've been teasing, maybe there is a little to this: for a Californian to get to Rolex is almost as big an undertaking as for a Virginian to get to Badminton. The experience of the big travel, competing with a bunch of stars you've never met, may be happening for the Californians at an earlier stage in their careers.

So maybe what we need is a fall 4* at Galway if we can't get more of our kids across the pond to Badminton.

[cyberbay]

Soooo, wouldn't have Buck not been an equally good choice (honestly, have forgotten the horse and its record)? Realize that KOC is deeply experienced, but even she seemed to succumb to the pressure for a team medal.

[poltroon]

Soooo, wouldn't have Buck not been an equally good choice (honestly, have forgotten the horse and its record)? Realize that KOC is deeply experienced, but even she seemed to succumb to the pressure for a team medal.

Isn't that what y'all are applying now? Pressure for a team medal at any cost? ;)

The Germans, the Brits, and the Aussies were very good... even if all of our riders had been clean xc, we might still have been 4th.

[RugBug]

nevermind.

[AllyCat]

From what I could see of the course, I thought it looked easy compared to most Olympic courses. Seriously. Compare it to Barcelona and this looked like a Prelim ride. I thought we'd clean up (as would many other teams). I have little more than 45 seconds to respond to anything on line, let alone watch the live feed so I missed AT's ride and Holder's. What a shame when I saw how far down in the standings.

Too bad.

Honestly- it looked like it was not her day- Amy Tryon. Her horse looked very strong. And she was not managing it. And (hate to say it) Becky Holder's stop looked like something I would do- it look like she stopped riding a few strides out and gave up. Then Karen O'Conner taking the brush option after so many people had issues with it vs the long route was disappointing. We definitely can not blame the horses or the course for our poor standings. It was rider error all around. I figured the XC would be a no brainer for our team.

Of course, I would have fallen off at the first jump. But what a disappointment. I hope Gina Miles picks up a medal.

[cyberbay]

Poltroon (realize that this thread may be expiring...), but I'm not applying any pressure for the medal. You just do what you can on the day of, as I see it. I was commenting on how green Mandiba got hop-scotched up on to the olympic team, that's all.

[Carol Ames]

:cry::(Has anyone mentioned the passing of "Big Phil" Karens' dad?

[gchildean]

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=220221