Balancing your canter....

[CanTango1]

I have a rather long OTTB... Long backed and a long neck ( although all that fancy dressage work is really helping his neck ) :D

I can not for the life of me keep his canter in either a 20m circle or even in a roll back turn. I have a long but fairly narrow ring to work in, its not ideal but its what I have.

For months Ive been working on transitions to get him in front of and respecting my leg, so he understands leg means go or at least sustaining the pace.

Im frustrated at this point that he wont keep going, and then I start flailing like a 5yr old in a western movie. I get mad at him which I know I shouldnt.

I know its hard for him to make the turns, hard or not he must do it. I carry a dressage whip at all times, and trust me it gets used.

Hes not my ideal horse as I like a more forward thinking ready to rock and roll type. I keep joking hes going to a thereputic program if he keeps it up, But hes what I bought and what I have.

I know I need to work with what I have, So I am here asking for help as Im getting pretty desperate.

Lessons are super hard for me to get right now, as I dont have my own trailer and who usual takes me is to busy to be consumed with my own issues.

Thanks :)

[debra]

Stop riding in your narrow ring. Go out into a field and he'll be fine. It's hard for him to make the turns in the canter. Once he gets the idea you can start making smaller circles. It'll happen, but you have to make it doable (is that a word?) for him, and not so unpleasant.
Another thing that would probably help is lungeing in balancing reins. It will be easier for him to canter a circle without having to balance you up there as well.
Let us know if he is progressing.

[Fence2Fence]

Exercise that my trainer recently had us do to help w/ the balance and quality of canter....canter a series of six or seven poles. Placed seven feet apart and then six feet as he figured out how to sit on his butt more. Great exercise. Sounds easy, but it's not!

[CanTango1]

debra- X-C he doesnt like to "go" either..... he would much rather just dandy along. I can get the canter... but I cant keep the canter even X-C.

I should'nt have narrowed it down to just the circles, but I can at least keep him going if I use the whole ring....its a struggle but we can do it.

I would say on the circle I can get and keep it about 25% of the time and that is just 1 circle if I try for 2 no way.

I had thought it could be physical deducted from the fact he does it X-C as well, after a full work up nothing was ever found except he has weak stifles which were working on.

I just truly think he doesnt have a forward thinking bone in his body .... And ive been struggling to find it in him.... he raced 29 times he used to like to go forward, Im starting to think I ruined him.


Oh and I should say- he gets out at least 3x a week... on 250 acres

[bornfreenowexpensive]

week stifles would make holding the canter very hard. Solution...don't ask for him to hold it long. Work on the transitions. Canter a few strides, ask for a downward transition. Make it your idea not his. Give him time to get stonger.....as in at least a couple of months.

[CanTango1]

Born free- I have been for months ( its in the OP ) and its not making a differance almost at all. I understand hes never going to be a " sports car" hes more of a caddie or better yet a limo.

But even some positive improvement would give me hope.

The only time I have felt a differance was just 2 weeks ago ( and I was so excited I thought we had had a break through ) Ive concluded that since he was feeling loopy and a coo coo brain that day we had that nice up down canter it was balanced and packaged.. but it also came with a few bucks on that particular day, and now its right back to the same.

[Jleegriffith]

I agree with the weak stifles. I have a horse right now that is just getting going in his training and he struggles to hold the canter. I do lots of transitions in and out of the canter but I also make darn sure I am not holding him up and not overusing my leg. I use my stick without reservation when appropriate. I am very serious about leg means go.

I find I spend more time out of the ring building these guys up and then when you come back to the ring it is almost amazing how much stronger they are. I also use a lot of low jumps and ground poles to get them pushing off from behind and to help them get stronger.

With my big horse I had the opposite problem which he has such a big canter I have trouble packaging him enough to canter the circles. After a year we are just now getting it!

[Jleegriffith]

Perhaps you need to become more demanding. Make 100% sure the balance is uphill and use your whip. Do you have an overall problem of forward? It's hard work he might need to see that you are going to make him get his butt under him. It's also very hard for the rider on this type of horse. Sit very tall to allow the balance to come uphill and for them to work from behind. I find when I get serious with my whip I can stop working so hard. You might struggle at first with the concept of whip means go and keep cantering but every little improvement will help. If he doesn't like whips then you might have to desensitize him first.

[debra]

week stifles would make holding the canter very hard. Solution...don't ask for him to hold it long. Work on the transitions. Canter a few strides, ask for a downward transition. Make it your idea not his. Give him time to get stonger.....as in at least a couple of months.

That is a very good thought- to make it YOUR idea and not his when he transitions downward!

[CanTango1]

Thanks JLee- I would at times say yes we do have an issue with forward.

Its pretty complicated- If I take up the reins at the walk and really work on our dressage he knows this means work. But if I let him have his head and stretch out he would much rather stop and shake at flies etc.

So I have tried to poke around not mess with his head at all and establish forward this way... I get a much better results with forward with contact which is what the goal was. So if I want him to walk on a loose rein I just keep the leg and give him a good whoolop.

At the trot usually not a lot of an issue, I do however use alot of leg, Almost to the point to much, which is why I dont ride in spurs, Hes already dead to my leg which is why transitions among other reasons have been a sole part of our daily rides


the canter well.............. Im trying .

If I get serious with my whip he stops and kicks out at it.. so when I feel him wanting to quit I go to more leg...only becasue the whip causes him to quit and kick...exacally what I dont want. If I can catch it before hes trying to quit and give a reminder I can prevent the quit and kick, this is something im working on.

[debra]

So you stop with the whip when he kicks out? My mare use to do that and I would hit her again, one for not moving two for being a B$#@#H

[Jleegriffith]

Your comments there would lead me to believe he has got your number. He stops and kicks out at the whip so you back off. You need to go back to remedial leg means forward and if you aren't jumping off my leg to go forward I am going to give you a smack. You would think ottb's are forward but most of them really don't understand leg. Either they are not forward or they think leg means go fast and not necessarily move over.

I start from the walk. Put the leg on to increase the pace. If he doesn't respond a sharp tap (yes sharp b/c you have to make an impression) if he kicks out tap again and if he bucks tap again. Reward any forward movement. Repeat in all three gaits. This takes a determined ride and a soft ride. They will take offense to the whip and some of them gallop forward or even buck or kick but I just allow them to go forward and then circle and repeat the leg aid. It will look ugly until they start to get the concept of leg = go but you have to be tough.

If you don't correct this behavior now it will really come back to bite you over fences when he decides he wants to be behind your leg and you go to use your stick and he bucks and kicks. Um, I learned from my own mistake on this one thinking my horse was forward but he was only forward when he wanted to be forward:yes:

With the horse I described we have a bit of a routine of warm up on a loose rein w/t/c and get the juices flowing. He is a 4yr ottb but lazy! If I put my leg on and he doesn't move I give him a good smack. We are now at the point it only takes one sharp tap behind the leg and he is staying forward for the next 10 min. He might need another reminder here and there.

If you tend to use to much leg taking the spurs off is probably a good idea.

[Fence2Fence]

I certainly understand your frustration. I've been around the block on this topic many times--he's behind your leg. My TB would love to be lazy, and he's got the weak stifle problem too!

Touch of the leg should mean "yes ma'am, where to?" Not, "Blah." It's not necessarily riding with a whip or spurs that make them dead to the aids, but the lack of quick follow up by the rider after their aid. All horses naturally want to be snoozing in the sun and eating grass. Under saddle, they are going to take the easiest path. It's the rider's responsibility to show the horse that going forward and using their tushies, really is the easiest way in life.

Because I'm imperfect, about once a year we have to have a 'come to jesus meeting.' We recently just had this discussion, and fortunately, it only took two reminders to be asking WWJD? again. When I first had this discussion, the response was "OHMIGOD YOU ARE KILLING ME." Now, it's more like "OH, crap, she woke up."

I took lessons from a person who worked with Jane Savoie, and she taught me how to sensitive the horse. But, in lieu of that, Jane Savoie does a really good job in explaining this in her 'Cross Training' books. I know I mention those books all the time, but she does a really good job describing the process and her pics and illustrations are just great. You might want to look at that.

[CBudFrggy]

Send him to a reining trainer. He'll learn he HAS to canter, and be balanced and strong. He'll also learn to accept light aids.

[CanTango1]

haha Im sorry to laugh CBUD but I really did Laugh out Loud :)

That actually would probably work !! I have done all the work on him myself, So I have created this monster...everyone says wouldnt you rather him be like that then the opposite ?? and truthfully no hes the exact opposite of what I would look for. :)


I will try these suggestions tonight.......during my come to jesus meeting :lol:

[Josey'sMom]

Wow, I swear you wrote that post about my horse. He does the same thing, right down to the sucking back and kicking (sometimes bucking) when you go to the whip. But mine is a percheron, so I know you didn't sneak over here and steal him, lol. Anyway, the others have given you great advice. We are still working through the canter issue, but we've come a long way. As evidenced by my trainer who is pushing for us to do the w/t/c test at our first mini event in November. I said I was aiming for the w/t division because of our canter issues and he said we are so close, he really wants us to aim for doing a w/t/c dressage test. Sad that the question of which division to enter is the canter in the dressage test and not the height of the jumps, eh?

Anyway, I agree about using that whip. If he is kicking at the whip, you need to give him another wollop. Loki kicks at the whip, I smack him again and growl, he may kick again, so I smack him and growl again and he realizes that it is NOT working and picks up the canter. We have finally gotten to the point where he's figured this out. Mostly now he hollows his back a bit and threatens to kick at the whip, then realizes "oh, she's gonna smack me again" and canters instead. It's progress...

I have also had to work on going straight to the whip after the FIRST canter request. I have always asked nicely, then put a bit more leg on, then kicked, then gone to the whip as a last resort. Well, as my trainer pointed out, he's blowing my leg off big time. So why should I give him more chances to blow off more and more leg? So now, I ask once nicely and if he doesn't canter on the first try he gets a sharp smack of the whip. He can feel a fly land on his skin, he can sure as heck feel my leg. I am trying to work on remembering that the whip is a backup for the leg. The whip does not tell the horse to go forward, the whip says "listen to my leg, NOW" It is a consequence of ignoring my leg, not the cue to go forward.

The other thing that has helped is doing sets of transitions. So maybe 5 strides of trot, 5 strides of canter, 5 strides of trot the whole way around the arena or field where we are riding. It gets lots of forward transitions in and makes him much sharper to my leg because I'm always asking something, not just sitting there letting whatever happens after the transition happen. It's also a real challenge to pick the number of strides and try to be spot on with your transitions. You'll find you have to figure out how many strides before the transition you have to start asking, and then work on getting it to happen more quickly. The horse has to pay attention, because you are asking for something very frequently. So he can't just go on auto-pilot.

Sorry this got so long, I just know your frustration all too well. We are still working on it and some days I feel like we are not progressing at all. But then I think about how 6 months ago I couldn't get him to canter once around the ring and now I can reliably go twice around (though it may not always be pretty) and I realize we are getting there. It just takes a lot of time and consistency. I hope some of what has worked for us will help you. And if you find something else that works, I'd love to hear it so I can try it out on my Loki :)

[subk]

Your comments there would lead me to believe he has got your number. He stops and kicks out at the whip so you back off. You need to go back to remedial leg means forward and if you aren't jumping off my leg to go forward I am going to give you a smack. You would think ottb's are forward but most of them really don't understand leg. Either they are not forward or they think leg means go fast and not necessarily move over.

I start from the walk. Put the leg on to increase the pace. If he doesn't respond a sharp tap (yes sharp b/c you have to make an impression) if he kicks out tap again and if he bucks tap again. Reward any forward movement. Repeat in all three gaits. This takes a determined ride and a soft ride. They will take offense to the whip and some of them gallop forward or even buck or kick but I just allow them to go forward and then circle and repeat the leg aid. It will look ugly until they start to get the concept of leg = go but you have to be tough.

If you don't correct this behavior now it will really come back to bite you over fences when he decides he wants to be behind your leg and you go to use your stick and he bucks and kicks. Um, I learned from my own mistake on this one thinking my horse was forward but he was only forward when he wanted to be forward:yes:

With the horse I described we have a bit of a routine of warm up on a loose rein w/t/c and get the juices flowing. He is a 4yr ottb but lazy! If I put my leg on and he doesn't move I give him a good smack. We are now at the point it only takes one sharp tap behind the leg and he is staying forward for the next 10 min. He might need another reminder here and there.

If you tend to use to much leg taking the spurs off is probably a good idea.
I think you've gotten some excellent advice! I would just be clear that you ask him to go forward once and only once before you make the correction. It's a bit like children, if you routinely ask them to do something and they don't and you ask again and they don't then once more. AND THEN get ugly they learn pretty quickly that they can ignore mom until she's asked three times! Teach him to move off the leg the FIRST time you ask, and expect him to move when you ask quietly. No need to give him a big squeeze, if he can feel a fly on his flank you can be assured he can feel a little squeeze.

[wolfmare]

I am dealing with I think my first really behind the leg horse(young draft cross)- didn't even realize at first that I was constantly re-asking... I have found that a bat with a wide end, held so that the handle is upside down in my hand, so the flap part is pointing to the sky- gives a ten times more resounding "whap" than one held in the traditional way....(thanks Deb) in less than a week I have a horse that is begining to get it, thanks to me getting it. :) A dressage whip was making him shut down, the bat seems to be a much better tool for this part of his training.It's a different experience to be sure! keep us posted!