olympic cross country, short and technical

[enjoytheride]

Looks like the course will be 8 minutes long, possibly even less with an almost max amount of fences. Thoughts?

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Beijing Olympics: Cross-country course will push competitors to the limit

By Alan Smith in Hong Kong

Even the man who designed it, Britain's Mike Etherington-Smith, said he "would not be surprised if no one got around inside the time, especially if it is hot on Monday."

The imponderables of heat and humidity are what he has had to figure into his design of the course at Beas River, which, as long ago as February has been reduced from an original 5,700 metres to 4,560m, with an optimum time of eight minutes, and could be shortened even more.

Etherington-Smith is one of the world's most experienced and accomplished course designers, his efforts including the 2000 Sydney Olympic course; on a regular basis the US Open at Lexington, Kentucky, and for many years he was director and course designer at Blenheim, where Zara Phillips and Toytown won the European Championship in 2005.

He was also Technical Delegate in Athens, when the new, now universally-adopted "short formula" for eventing, without roads and tracks or steeplechase, was used for the first time in an Olympic Games, over a 5,700m course.

So he is surely well-qualified to officiate at a Games were the weather conditions, hot and humid with, as we saw in dramatic fashion yesterday, the possibility of typhoon that can flatten anything not securely fastened down, play an important role.

When, as they must according to the rules, the Olympic Ground Jury, Martin Plewa, Marilyn Payne and Christian Landholt – the three judges who will officiate throughout all three phases of the event – inspected the course, they passed it without any changes, and earlier today riders, trainers and press saw it for he first time.

It is certainly on the short side for a competition at this level, so it was important that it is difficult enough, so that the cross-country phase maintains its importance as the pre-eminent element of the event, rather than let it develop into a dressage and show jumping competition.

And Etherington-Smith has certainly made sure of that. Although the 29 fences, with 39 jumping efforts, are six fewer than the maximum allowed, packing them in to a shortened track has resulted in, as William Fox-Pitt put it "a very busy track. You will need to be on the clock all the time."

Mary King, at her fifth Olympic Games and winner of a team silver in Athens, said: "This is a true Olympic course, much stronger than Athens. Which is what we wanted, of course, but the time will be extremely difficult to get."

Daisy Dick is making her Olympic debut but was a member of the team that finished second in the 2006 World Championships in Aachen, where she and Spring Along were best of all across country. Asked to compare, she said that this is "much tighter (than Aachen). You are always on the turn and it will be difficult to get into a rhythm."

Tina Cook, also at her first Olympics after two near misses, has the least experienced British horse, in Miners Frolic, and said: "He is a big-galloping horse, but very obedient so should be able to corner quite well."

For Sharon Hunt this is first time in any British team, but she remains confident that Tankers Town can cope, "though there are lots of angles. It will be time consuming."

One thing is sure about the Hong Kong Olympic event, as team manager Yogi Breisner affirmed: "It will not be won on the dressage."




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...the-limit.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2515946/Beijing-Olympics-Cross-country-course-will-push-competitors-to-the-limit.html)

[eqsiu]

Sounds like they shortened it due to heat/humidity concerns. A good plan IMO. I know it's not quite what most would think of as a championship course, but given the conditions I'm sure it will be just as challenging as any other.

[poltroon]

Sounds like they shortened it due to heat/humidity concerns. A good plan IMO. I know it's not quite what most would think of as a championship course, but given the conditions I'm sure it will be just as challenging as any other.

Given what has been happening this year, I am worried that shortening the course will actually make it more physically taxing and more dangerous, because the horses will never get to settle into a galloping rhythm.

[RAyers]

In all honesty, I will put my money on one case of EIPH, regardless of team. That many fences with the weather and speed, I am afraid that there is one horse out there that is NOT ready.

I come to this conclusion based on my idea that it is the acceleration and deceleration to make time that is causing detrimental blood pressure changes. It is no longer about can a rider condition for a horse to keep a speed over long distances but can a rider condition a horse to manager numerous changes in speed (hence require more VO and have the cardiovascular compensation to handle this).

Reed

[crittertwitter]

Does anyone know any symptoms of EIPH that are recognizable, however lightly so, before becoming fatal?

[vineyridge]

In all honesty, I will put my money on one case of EIPH, regardless of team. That many fences with the weather and speed, I am afraid that there is one horse out there that is NOT ready.

I come to this conclusion based on my idea that it is the acceleration and deceleration to make time that is causing detrimental blood pressure changes. It is no longer about can a rider condition for a horse to keep a speed over long distances but can a rider condition a horse to manager numerous changes in speed (hence require more VO and have the cardiovascular compensation to handle this).

Reed

Your conclusion would certainly be consistent with the impact theory of EIPH. :(

[RiverBendPol]

Yipes. Makes me wring my hands.

[enjoytheride]

my question is about the optimum time. Is the time not the ideal goal to run the course in? The course designer says he doubts a single rider will make the time. Is that usually the plan? Will this cause riders to ride faster then is safe to try and make the time the course designer says is impossible?

[bambam]

in addition to the amount of acceleration and deceleration in a short technical course like this, since the horse does not breathe during most of its jumping effort wouldn't having almost the max number of jumping efforts on a shorter course be more taxing on the horse in these weather conditions (or any conditions)? I have no idea whether this will be a problem or not since I just do ot know enough about the course and the conditions and veterinary medicine but I am not following the logic of the course shortening with 39 jumping efforts here.
I also would like to attend this "US Open" that occurs in KY every year. I thought the US Open was in Flushing NY ;)

[RAyers]

39 efforts in 4,600m is an average jumping effort every 116m. If the speed is a 570 mpm, that comes as a jump every 12 seconds, on average for a course that is 484 seconds long (as noted by the OP). If, as you say, bambam, the horse does not breathe during a jumping effort, the horses in the Olympics will be "holding their breath" for almost 10% of the time on course! This assumes a horse is over a fence for 1 second.

Are the veterinarians actually paying attention to this? Did anybody actually think this through?

And before anybody gets bitchy saying I am a doomsayer do the caluclations yourself. Then go and see if you can do any aerobic activity where you hold your breath for 10% of the activity. This is common sense.

I will be happy if no horses pop like a balloon.

Reed

[monstrpony]

Reed, I don't know if anyone has ever looked at it from that perspective, but I believe it is a very important one. Hold that thought for the debriefing afterward.

[poltroon]

39 efforts in 4,600m is an average jumping effort every 116m. If the speed is a 570 mpm, that comes as a jump every 12 seconds, on average for a course that is 484 seconds long (as noted by the OP). If, as you say, bambam, the horse does not breathe during a jumping effort, the horses in the Olympics will be "holding their breath" for almost 10% of the time on course! This assumes a horse is over a fence for 1 second.

Are the veterinarians actually paying attention to this? Did anybody actually think this through?

And before anybody gets bitchy saying I am a doomsayer do the caluclations yourself. Then go and see if you can do any aerobic activity where you hold your breath for 10% of the activity. This is common sense.

I will be happy if no horses pop like a balloon.

Reed

I think the answer is, "no. No one thought this through."

It's a paradigm shift, a whole new way of looking at what makes a course strenuous. Of course a shorter course would be easier - obvious! But after this spring we're starting to think we don't know what's obvious any more.

And of course, this Olympic course was designed long before our recent string of fatalities.

I hadn't ever thought about whether a horse would breathe in the air over the fence.

[frugalannie]

Yay Reed! Bringing an analytical mind to course design: I'm all for it.

Does anyone know if human hurdlers (track and field) hold their breath when jumping? Just curious.

[SRF1]

Hi Everyone,

I could be wrong on this, but I think the horses should be ok as they only take 8-16 breaths per min normally (this may increase in work) but even with the higher average of 20 breaths per min that would still give them 3 seconds between each breath. I am not sure how long they are in the air over fences, but if it is no longer than 3 seconds they would not be taking another breath anyhow. Like I said I could be wrong on this, it is just something to consider.

[lecoeurtriste]

Human athletes should exhale during the "work" or effort portion of the activity--holding your breath can cause a rise in both blood and intrathecal pressure (not usually a good thing). For example, if I'm doing the 100m hurdles, I should exhale as I explode off the ground and over the barrier and inhale as I hit the ground to continue running...watch a good weight lifter, they will take a deep breath in, set their abs and spine, then explode the weight up overhead while exhaling. Perhaps horses do the same thing over fences?? We do movement analysis and oxygen use studies concurrently in humans, perhaps it's time they're done more extensively with horses.

[GreyDun]

Yay Reed! Bringing an analytical mind to course design: I'm all for it.

Does anyone know if human hurdlers (track and field) hold their breath when jumping? Just curious.

After four years of hurdling through high school track, I can tell you that YES we do hold our breaths... at least I did. :D At least when you're in the air, and then you "oomph" when you land (exhale), and then breathe before you push off the ground again.

[RAyers]

Hi Everyone,

I could be wrong on this, but I think the horses should be ok as they only take 8-16 breaths per min normally (this may increase in work) but even with the higher average of 20 breaths per min that would still give them 3 seconds between each breath. I am not sure how long they are in the air over fences, but if it is no longer than 3 seconds they would not be taking another breath anyhow. Like I said I could be wrong on this, it is just something to consider.

I would say you are way under estimating the breathing. When my horse came off the CIC** course at Maui Jim last month his respiration was76-84 breaths per minute (weather was high temperature and humidity). He recovered very well in the 10 minutes. At Greenwood he was at 70 breaths per minute (cooler temp but high humidity). Given that 16 breaths is average for rest, 20 breaths per minute is about for light trot work.

Remember, at the gallop the horse breathes in and out in conjunction with the stride so unless your horse has a LOOOOONNNNNGGGG stride, 76 breaths per minute is not that bad for a maximal effort at speed. At a 12 foot step, 570 mpm would mean the horse has to breath 120 times per minute. At 18 foot step (about average for an eventer) the horse breathes about 80 times per minute.

Things such as weight lifting, sprinting are all anaerobic. How many steeplechase runners, milers, hold their breath for 10% of the course?

[Ajierene]

After four years of hurdling through high school track, I can tell you that YES we do hold our breaths... at least I did. :D At least when you're in the air, and then you "oomph" when you land (exhale), and then breathe before you push off the ground again.

On holding breath - I used to, and probably still do, hold my breath for an entire jumping course (hunters back in the day, then stadium and attempted over cross country course when I first started eventing).

Initially, I thought the course shortening was a good idea, but now I am a bit worried.

I am not sure how speeding up and slowing down affect blood pressure - can anyone elaborate?

I'm not sure holding one's breath would be an issue as an Olympic athlete would generally be capable of monitoring this. I know breathing is something that human athletes practice, and you can't exactly tell an equine when to breathe, but I would think that an equine that got that far has some inherent abilities in this department. That is just my conjecture, though.

[eventrider]

I have no imput on the breathing part of this, but at the final outing at the Fork, the course was set up to mirror the cross country in Hong Kong. The fences were set every 100 meters on average, and the course was set at a similiar speed and length. The selectors told the riders to go for time and ride the course like it was the games. So the US horses have run at least one course with max jumping efforts spaced at 100m intervals at a similiar length and speed. Every horse looked great after their run.

[bambam]

Pretty sure the following is correct: at a canter and gallop horses take one breath per stride. The movement in the gait itself triggers the contraction of the lungs and the breath, as opposed to other gaits or at rest when horses physically contract their diaphragm to breath at a rate unrelated to their stride. Because that movement stops as they take off for a jump, they effectively "hold their breath" from take off to landing. That is my understanding and I am pretty sure that it is basically correct.
So the fact, Reed, that your horse was breathing at a rate of 70-84 in the vet box does not mean he was breathing at that rate on xc and in fact unless he has a really short stride and you were going really fast, I doubt he was :) I however think that missing any breath at that level of a course makes a difference so I think the ultimate point is still correct

[RAyers]

Pretty sure the following is correct: at a canter and gallop horses take one breath per stride. The movement in the gait itself triggers the contraction of the lungs and the breath, as opposed to other gaits or at rest when horses physically contract their diaphragm to breath at a rate unrelated to their stride. Because that movement stops as they take off for a jump, they effectively "hold their breath" from take off to landing. That is my understanding and I am pretty sure that it is basically correct.
So the fact, Reed, that your horse was breathing at a rate of 70-84 in the vet box does not mean he was breathing at that rate on xc and in fact unless he has a really short stride and you were going really fast, I doubt he was :) I however think that missing any breath at that level of a course makes a difference so I think the ultimate point is still correct



See above for my analysis. Horses on course should be breathing at 80 bpm at 570 mpm.

Reed

[Brandy76]

In all honesty, I will put my money on one case of EIPH, regardless of team. That many fences with the weather and speed, I am afraid that there is one horse out there that is NOT ready.

I come to this conclusion based on my idea that it is the acceleration and deceleration to make time that is causing detrimental blood pressure changes. It is no longer about can a rider condition for a horse to keep a speed over long distances but can a rider condition a horse to manager numerous changes in speed (hence require more VO and have the cardiovascular compensation to handle this).

Reed

EXCELENT POST!!
Could that be why there seem to be more cases of this? In your later post, with how much the horse could be holding their breath? And the jump, turn, jump, turn?

And it may just be more than ANY horse can handle - "the numerous changes in speed" - maybe this was never factored into how the courses have changed - another reason more technical is not good. Meaning, aside from the obvious mousehead/cheese nonsense, the actual technicality is bad from a cardiovascular standpoint?

[roki143]

from my quick calculations (so they could be VERY wrong)...

On a given intermediate course...

Horse travels 3200 meters at 550 mpm for a total of 5.8 minutes.

using a stride average of, say, 16 feet (4.8758 meters)

will travel 656.16 strides in 5.8 minutes

=which is 113.1 breathes a minute (on average)

This is IF the horse is forced to breath every stride...

Don't know why I decided to calculate that out, but it seemed interesting

[bambam]

So the fact, Reed, that your horse was breathing at a rate of 70-84 in the vet box does not mean he was breathing at that rate on xc and in fact unless he has a really short stride and you were going really fast, I doubt he was :)
Guess I should have done the math before I made that statement but given my allergy to math, I just couldn't ;)

[SRF1]

Me too bambam :D

Reed like you said, I way underestimated how much it goes up in work, thanks for the insight! :winkgrin:

[lecoeurtriste]

Beg to differ that hurdles are purely an anaerobic effort---1600m hurdle race is very far outside the generally accepted 2min and under for aerobic work. While I agree that the example I gave of the weight lifter is anaerobic, it was meant only to highlight the correct human breathing pattern during work that horses may be doing themselves over fences. If you watch world cup level soccer (which has periods of both aerobic and anaerobic work--sprint, recover, sprint, etc.), you'll see them take a deep breath and exhale as they execute a long pass or hard shot on goal. Similarly, horses covering ground on XC at 570mpm are also doing a combination of aerobic and anaerobic work (sprint, slow down, jump, sprint, etc.)--isn't that the premise behind the theory that slowing down and speeding up is "causing" the sudden cardiopulmonary breakdowns??

Also, if the contraction of the diaphragm is synchronized to striding at the canter and gallop, it would make more sense that it was relaxing/rising (exhaling) at the time of take off and expanding/lowering (inhaling) upon landing--rather than the other way around. (which would create a breath-holding situation and decrease power on takeoff) If this doesn't make sense, stand up in your living room and try to do a vertical jump while inhaling and again while exhaling--my bet is that you made it further off the floor the second time. :-)

[RAyers]

I have to honest, I never have never seen a 1600 meter hurdles in the US. I thought the 300 meter hurdles was the longest.

It is my understanding that once you get into the aerobic regime of work, a body does not go right back to anearobic function (anaerobic threshold) because you have already depleted the energy stores and lactic acid build up. The body does not just switch between the two. Thus, on course the horse works anaerobically until aerobic conditioning kicks in (interval training).

The premise of EIPH is slowing down and speeding up along with the slamming of the large organs against the heart and lungs causing the pulmonary and vascular pressures to vary wildly and microfailures to result.

That is the difference between humans and horses. For us to be equivalent, we need to do all of our work basically upside down.

Reed

Beg to differ that hurdles are purely an anaerobic effort---1600m hurdle race is very far outside the generally accepted 2min and under for aerobic work. While I agree that the example I gave of the weight lifter is anaerobic, it was meant only to highlight the correct human breathing pattern during work that horses may be doing themselves over fences. If you watch world cup level soccer (which has periods of both aerobic and anaerobic work--sprint, recover, sprint, etc.), you'll see them take a deep breath and exhale as they execute a long pass or hard shot on goal. Similarly, horses covering ground on XC at 570mpm are also doing a combination of aerobic and anaerobic work (sprint, slow down, jump, sprint, etc.)--isn't that the premise behind the theory that slowing down and speeding up is "causing" the sudden cardiopulmonary breakdowns??

Also, if the contraction of the diaphragm is synchronized to striding at the canter and gallop, it would make more sense that it was relaxing/rising (exhaling) at the time of take off and expanding/lowering (inhaling) upon landing--rather than the other way around. (which would create a breath-holding situation and decrease power on takeoff) If this doesn't make sense, stand up in your living room and try to do a vertical jump while inhaling and again while exhaling--my bet is that you made it further off the floor the second time. :-)

[Gnep]

this is a asumption based on sheer mechanics, have no idea if it works the same way in horses or humans.

If you run a pump ( heart ) at low speeds or idle it pumps less and produces lower pressure, you crank it up more liquid is pumped and the pressure rises.

Considering that a fit horse has a heart beat in the mid twenties to lower twenties when resting and can have a heart beat of over 200 when sprinting, I would asume ( pump example ) that the pressure is rising.

It would be very intersting to have heart rate data from rides and compare them to the speed data Reed has been colecting.
Measuring blood preasure on a horse is not easy, because it is measured at the top of the tail.
I once used a human portable on one of my horses, resting, just for interest if it would work. It was difficult and intermitend.

[lecoeurtriste]

In our exercise physiology/kinesiology lab, we have the ability to measure VO2, heart rate, blood pressure, body temperature, etc. during maximal exertion (humans, of course). Most of our old-school equipment requires the subject be on a treadmill with a medieval torture contraption on their face/nose, EKG leads everywhere, and don't even ask where the thermometer goes! However, some of the newer equipment is wireless and allows us to measure athletes "in the field" doing their sport--the data is saved in a small pack on a waist belt or wrist monitor and downloaded afterwards. We also have motion analysis software that can be synchronized with the physiological findings (in a more controlled environment). My guess is that there is equipment out there for measuring horses at work (gas mask analyzers, HR and BP monitors, portable EKGs, etc.)...I would think either the racing industry or endurance folks would have done some research by now. But I'm game to do the research if anyone has the equipment!

[deltawave]

A galloping horse takes precisely as many breaths per minute as he does strides, given the fact that at a gallop there is "coupling" of locomotion and respiration for maximum efficiency.

Yes, blood pressure rises as demand goes up. Horses generate extraordinarily high systemic and pulmonary pressures when compared with humans.

[bambam]

Just to show I am not making the "hold their breath thing" up (although that may be a bit of a misnomer)
http://www.thehorse.com/pdf/airways-lungs/airways-lungs.pdf
Among other things, this article confirms the one breath per stride and not breathing while jumping ideas. This is not the only place I have seen this assertion and The Horse is a pretty reliable source. I do recall reading elsewhere that they do move a little air over a jump but not much

[JER]

Hong Kong has had record air pollution levels in the last week, there's a big increase in ground-level ozone and particulate matter levels are more than twice the allowable levels in the US.

Ozone diminishes lung performance and high levels can have an inflammatory effect on the airway. Not good for anyone, probably especially not good for a galloping horse.

[crittertwitter]

"Determining the incidence of EIPH in event horses, currently unknown, "would entail endoscopic examinations following exercise of horses in competition. Epidemiologic studies could help clarify the incidence of fatal hemorrhage and explore risk factors. And, laboratory studies would be required to look at the mechanisms of disease and treatment and prevention strategies," Green says. "
(from http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Veterinary+Equine/Research-committee-considering-EIPH-study/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/520474)

OK, so maybe there are some precursors, but they're as yet unknown. I'm not clear on the article, but hopefully the vets would keep an eye on it, given that its a known issue. I just wonder if there is anything additionally being monitored now on top of what they already do to monitor conditioning.