Bad form to wear hunt-top boots?

[WilfredLeblanc]

I was thinking of investing in some tall boots, and find the brown-topped hunt models far and away the best looking (both for schooling and show), but I am aware that these typically signify membership in a hunt. Would wearing these boots be an egregious display of chutzpah?

Also, are the Aigle synthetics at all comfortable? The price is certainly right, but I suspect that they can't possibly breathe worth a hoot.

[Firefox]

I would think that only gentlemen should wear them in eventing and yes you should be a member of a hunt with your colors to be totally proper, but who really knows that information :) I have onely seen ladies wear them when they wear the "pink" coat as a master or staff of a hunt, I have never seen them at a show JMHO

[RedFoxAbby]

Women who hunt wear patent tops on their boots. Not the brown ones. They wouldn't be proper for Dressage.

[Jaegermonster]

Lady Huntsman and Masters may wear brown tops. And yes it would be bad form.

[Ibex]

When I had tops put on my boots to make them taller, I was told it was only the tan or patent tops that are hunt-specific. I went with a super-dark burgundy that looks quite snazzy. You're seeing more multi-coloured boots around (there's one brand with coloured caps on the toes etc)

[greygirls]

I saw them on a female competitor at Fair Hill International in stadium jumping just last fall. Was that bad form, too? I thought it was so cool and rich looking, I wanted a pair.

[Ajierene]

My personal opinion is if it won't get you disqualified, wear what you want and whoever doesn't like it can suck and egg.


I have never been one for pomp and circumstance, though.

Since you aren't participating in a hunt, hunt rules do not apply.

[WilfredLeblanc]

Not the brown ones. They wouldn't be proper for Dressage.

Why not?

[clivers]

Why not?

No idea.

Ian Stark often wore his brown-topped boots for dressage at the 4* level. IMO it's not bad form. Maybe some posters are confusing what's "in" with what's correct. In any event, wear what you like and feel comfortable in. Oh, and on that note, I'd skip the Aigles - synthetic boots are murder to ride in (slippery, hot, bad fit etc.).

[Xctrygirl]

I saw a girl in a clinic with Jimmy wearing some and her absolutely corrected her to the rules concerning who (or is it whom?) may and may not correctly wear brown tops.

I wouldn't do it.

~Emily

[Sightunseen]

Yeah I was always taught that it is for Men, but on the same side it is like wearing white gloves, its not going to get you eliminated, but it might get you laughed at...a lot

[JER]

I would think that only gentlemen should wear them in eventing

Gentlemen? In eventing? :lol::lol::lol::lol:

I really like the Aigles. Love them for hunting as they're waterproof and keep your feet warm.

[ss3777]

I am going to be facing this same dilemma soon. My "show" boots are wearing out and I have a great pair of hunt boots that I only have for hunting. I have a hard time going out and buying yet another pair of boots when I have a wonderful pair for hunting. Oh well, hopefully my show boots will hold out another year. They only leak a little :)

[Sightunseen]

Gentlemen? In eventing? :lol::lol::lol::lol:

I really like the Aigles. Love them for hunting as they're waterproof and keep your feet warm.

OF Course there are GENTLEMEN!!! Come on some people bring their well trained sons.....

[bornfreenowexpensive]

If you are worried about expense AND comfort....skip the boots and get a good pair of padock boots and leggings/ 1/2chaps. They are legal now and I've worn them at events and clinics...you can't even tell in the pictures.

I do have nice boots that I wear most of the time for events....but if I was in your position...that is what I would do (just for the comfort factor). But you can get decent boots for under $200.

[Jaegermonster]

I am going to be facing this same dilemma soon. My "show" boots are wearing out and I have a great pair of hunt boots that I only have for hunting. I have a hard time going out and buying yet another pair of boots when I have a wonderful pair for hunting. Oh well, hopefully my show boots will hold out another year. They only leak a little :)

If you actually hunt and are entitled to wear them that's different.

[Equibrit]

Wear them (brown or patent) if you are entitled. Otherwise you mark yourself as a wannabe poser!
Colours are also acceptable in competition.

[Josey'sMom]

Yeah I was always taught that it is for Men, but on the same side it is like wearing white gloves, its not going to get you eliminated, but it might get you laughed at...a lot

OK, I'm confused, are you not supposed to wear white gloves? I thought you were supposed to wear white gloves for dressage. Or is that only for an actual dressage dressage show, but not for eventing? I'm getting ready for my first mini HT soon, so I have no clue but would like to not get laughed at when I go ;)

[bornfreenowexpensive]

OK, I'm confused, are you not supposed to wear white gloves? I thought you were supposed to wear white gloves for dressage. Or is that only for an actual dressage dressage show, but not for eventing? I'm getting ready for my first mini HT soon, so I have no clue but would like to not get laughed at when I go ;)


I would not wear white gloves unless you have exceptional hands.

[Equibrit]

Most people don't need to draw attention to their hands by wearing white gloves.

[rivenoak]

I gotta say, Ajirene, I like your answer (for some folks to just suck an egg) for its sheer boldness.

However, as someone whose hunt whip is sometimes firmly up the rear-end when it comes to proper attire, a person shouldn't wear what they haven't earned. I've worked hard to be able to wear top boots and colors on my coats. Some parvenue comes along and wants to wear some, too, well...harrumph! ;)

Wear them (brown or patent) if you are entitled...Colours are also acceptable in competition.

And thank goodness for that, as the only kit I own that fits currently is hunt livery. And patent-topped boots. Complete with Sonoran pin-striping from the cactus thorns.

Do we have to carry a letter from the Master acknowledging our right, like in the old days? Or was that just for those show hunter people in appointments or Corinthian classes which have gone, sadly, by the wayside?

So, the only real question for me becomes which hunt's colors do I wear? Or ratcatcher? Choices, choices.

That said, how many could I pi$$ off by wearing scarlet?! :lol:
(My old whipping-in coat is languishing in the closet.)

Whatever I wear, I'll be the oddball at Grass Ridge HT, I'm sure.

[NRB]

Most people don't need to draw attention to their hands by wearing white gloves.


If you have bad hands they do not become invisable when you wear black gloves. I wear white, in eventing and dressage shows. Black just looks wrong to me. Honastly if your hands look so bad that you look like a mime when doing your dressage test then stay home and practice til they are better. It's not that hard to do and it's not rocket science.

[subk]

I have seen both brown tops (on men) and patent tops (ladies) in the dressage ring at Rolex. I have also seen hunt color collars there to. I think it is great. It's almost enough to make me want to take up fox hunting--but not quite.

I would not wear tops if I hadn't earned them, if for no other reason than enough people know what they mean and they will nicely inquire who you hunt with. You will probably be asked at least once at every event you go to and some people won't appreciate your answer. (Of course, that might not bother you!)

My first 3-day I borrowed a shadbelly with a hunt colored collar. I very carefully stitched a simple black collar over it. I heard through the grapevine after I did it that a member of that hunt got their panties in a wad when they discovered the loan, but before they knew I had covered it...

[Ajierene]

I gotta say, Ajirene, I like your answer (for some folks to just suck an egg) for its sheer boldness.

However, as someone whose hunt whip is sometimes firmly up the rear-end when it comes to proper attire, a person shouldn't wear what they haven't earned. I've worked hard to be able to wear top boots and colors on my coats. Some parvenue comes along and wants to wear some, too, well...harrumph! ;)


Thanks for that. I understand the the colors are earned...somehow...(though I always though that the boots just meant you were a member - just paid your dues, so no 'earning' involved...but I don't know much about the hunt).

In an actual hunt, I would say don't wear them unless you earn them (can someone educate me on how to earn them?), but since eventing is not hunting, my opinion is do what you want.

For the record - if someone looked at me funny for wearing them and made a face or a comment, I would not care in the least.

[Jaegermonster]

The tops go with the hunt colors, so whatever you did to earn your colors also entitles you to wear the boot tops. So it depends on your particular hunt and what they require to earn colors.

[2ndyrgal]

If I had to hazard a guess, the men eventers mentioned that wear boots with tops, either currently or formerly hunted. I can't recall if Mudroom, who posts here and is a MFH, wears his w/tops or not. Do the tan tops look stunning?? Yessiree. Do I think that if one wears them, one should have earned them, absolutely. It would be like wearing a red coat with blue colors like the USET, you just wouldn't do it. You wouldn't wear a military uniform either, You probably wouldn't compete in an orange jacket like that (is it the Dutch) poor unfortunate Olympic show jumping team (god who did they piss off) so why would you really, even pose the question, when you already likely know the answer.

[J Swan]

Thanks for that. I understand the the colors are earned...somehow...(though I always though that the boots just meant you were a member - just paid your dues, so no 'earning' involved...but I don't know much about the hunt).

In an actual hunt, I would say don't wear them unless you earn them (can someone educate me on how to earn them?), but since eventing is not hunting, my opinion is do what you want.

For the record - if someone looked at me funny for wearing them and made a face or a comment, I would not care in the least.

You should - it's rude and disrespectful and inappropriate. It's like wearing medals you haven't earned, wearing the uniform of military service you did not belong to.

Odd that eventers seem to want to improve the sport and yet insist on flouting convention whenever it suits them.

If you did not earn colors, it speaks volumes of your ethics if you insist on "dressing" the part in competition. There are plenty of equestrians who have earned colors and it is perfectly appropriate to wear them in competition. Same with a member of the armed services or police.

There are reasons and traditions behind attire, just as there are reasons and traditions in military dress. It's not snobbery to display medals or ribbons earned in military service - but it is completely unacceptable to wear them if you did not earn them.

Same with colors.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

If you have bad hands they do not become invisable when you wear black gloves. I wear white, in eventing and dressage shows. Black just looks wrong to me. Honastly if your hands look so bad that you look like a mime when doing your dressage test then stay home and practice til they are better. It's not that hard to do and it's not rocket science.

See...I think just the opposite. I think it looks wrong for lower level dressage (below 3rd/4th level) or lower level eventing to wear white gloves. I do not have bad hands...but you wouldn't catch me wearing white gloves ever. I don't like the look.

Add that with the fact that many eventers, including myself, don't wear our jackets for dressage at one day events anymore...white gloves look even more odd.

[Little Valkyrie]

I am going to be facing this same dilemma soon. My "show" boots are wearing out and I have a great pair of hunt boots that I only have for hunting. I have a hard time going out and buying yet another pair of boots when I have a wonderful pair for hunting. Oh well, hopefully my show boots will hold out another year. They only leak a little :)

Sue, I say rock the hunt tops. Unless of course they are a size 9.5...:D

[Ajierene]

You should - it's rude and disrespectful and inappropriate. It's like wearing medals you haven't earned, wearing the uniform of military service you did not belong to.

Odd that eventers seem to want to improve the sport and yet insist on flouting convention whenever it suits them.

If you did not earn colors, it speaks volumes of your ethics if you insist on "dressing" the part in competition. There are plenty of equestrians who have earned colors and it is perfectly appropriate to wear them in competition. Same with a member of the armed services or police.

There are reasons and traditions behind attire, just as there are reasons and traditions in military dress. It's not snobbery to display medals or ribbons earned in military service - but it is completely unacceptable to wear them if you did not earn them.

Same with colors.

In the military, it is not 'unacceptable' to wear medals you did not earn - it means you are out of regs and could get an Article 15. There is also very specific ways to earn the ribbons and medals. There is also a very specific way an Equestrian earns the pinque coat.

Since different hunts require different things to 'earn' the boots, it does not seem that you can look at someone that bought them off the shelf and say they did not earn them. It is not universal how they are earned, so wearing the colors does not mean as much to someone outside the hunt.

Maybe I just have a different view because I never hunted and do not see the connection between hunting and eventing. To me they are two different disciplines and the rules of one do not transfer to the other.

To me it is like a non-Olympian wearing the pinque coat (or a very close facsimile) at a Western Show. It would not be a big deal because since there are not Western disciplines in the Olympics, they cannot earn it anyway. I don't think it speaks 'volumes of their ethics' because they may know as much about the traditions of the Olympics as I know about the hunt.

The military in the US cannot wear the uniform in competition anyway - unless they got special exception. Tall boots and breeches are not authorized at last check.

[poltroon]

In the military, it is not 'unacceptable' to wear medals you did not earn - it means you are out of regs and could get an Article 15. There is also very specific ways to earn the ribbons and medals. There is also a very specific way an Equestrian earns the pinque coat.

Of course, if you're not in the military, there's not much they can do.

To me it is like a non-Olympian wearing the pinque coat (or a very close facsimile) at a Western Show. It would not be a big deal because since there are not Western disciplines in the Olympics, they cannot earn it anyway. I don't think it speaks 'volumes of their ethics' because they may know as much about the traditions of the Olympics as I know about the hunt.

To me, the western breed riders wearing pinque shout, "I'm a buffoon! I know nothing about any sport other than my own! Maybe not even my own!" ;)

Of course, your mileage may vary. I'm just saying that's my first impression.

[Alterageous]

The problem is that, when wearing hunt attire, whether hunting or not, you are representing yourself as a credentialed member of a hunt. If you're not, but just wearing the gear, it's more like wearing a police officer costume when you're not a police officer. Dressing the part, but not BEING the part. Further, when you wear hunt attire, you are representing the hunt itself in public. It doesn't matter that you're not actively chasing a fox. You're representing yourself as a member of a hunt in an equestrian pursuit. It's tacky to do so if you haven't earned it. P.S. Colors aren't something that are awarded after a time or two out with the field. They are similar to medals in that they are awarded for service and committment to the hunt. I know people who have been hunting longer than I have been alive who still don't have them, and my hunt has a minimum of 3 complete seasons before you're even considered for colors. There is an equestrian tradition here (after all, riding attire is BASED on foxhunting, and all the attire has a practical purpose) that you'd be flouting by wearing hunt colors inappropriately in any equestrian pursuit.

And it's CERTAINLY tacky for a lady to wear tan boot tops, unless she is the master of a hunt, so it would be almost like a double offense to do that.

Ignorance is not an excuse for representing yourself as something you are not.

And if it's not acceptable to wear someone else's medals, why do you earn an article 15? Aren't punishments generally linked to actions that are deemed unacceptable?

[Ajierene]

Of course, if you're not in the military, there's not much they can do.

Technically speaking it is against the law.

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/10C45.txt



To me, the western breed riders wearing pinque shout, "I'm a buffoon! I know nothing about any sport other than my own! Maybe not even my own!" ;)

Of course, your mileage may vary. I'm just saying that's my first impression.

Western riders not know as much about English disciplines is not really all that different than the countless English riders I meet that do not know much about Western disciplines and traditions in different types of shows (western, breed, etc.). A lot of hunters don't know much about dressage and dressage disciplines. Dressage riders do not necessarily know about Eventing and eventing disciplines. Eventers do not necessarily know about hunter/jumpers and their traditions. Rodeo riders do not necessarily know about Western pleasure or trail.

You may be the guru of all disciplines, but some people just don't have that time for all that research.

[Ajierene]

And if it's not acceptable to wear someone else's medals, why do you earn an article 15? Aren't punishments generally linked to actions that are deemed unacceptable?

I'm not quite sure what you are asking, because Article 15 is basically a punishment without record.

Getting an Article 15 depends on the offense, and the mood of your superiors on that day.

It can be anything from coming in late to much to stealing to underage drinking.


I don't see how the hunt colors necessarily represent you as the hunt. Many people have never hunted and do not know what the colors mean or that those 'cool boots with the tan tops' are really hunt boots. To me, the difference is, different people at different hunts will be wearing colors for what could be called 'arbitrary'. I use the word arbitrary because if Hunt A has one rule and Hunt B has another rule, then it appears that the rules are just made up by the desires of the people running the hunt. Therefore, wearing the colors in a horse discipline outside the hunt cannot be assumed to mean anything.

[Jaegermonster]

I beg to differ, but at least until fairly recently most eventers spent lots of time foxhunting.

Either way, wearing things you did not earn and don't know a thing about if someone should ask you is called being a poseur.

Why anyone would call attention to their ignorance by doing such a thing is beyond me.

[WilfredLeblanc]

You should - it's rude and disrespectful and inappropriate. It's like wearing medals you haven't earned, wearing the uniform of military service you did not belong to.

I think your analogy is a bit grandiose. Belonging to a hunt is like belonging to a country club, not Special Forces.

That said, I certainly wouldn't wear the logo of a club I don't belong to, but I might very well wear some generic article of clothing that is worn at club--a Lacoste shirt, for example. And actually, now that I'm thinking in terms of analogies, it seems to me the real thing to avoid wearing would be anything specific to a particular club--their buttons, or what have you. But since it is the case that brown-topped boots index a particular achievement in any hunt, it becomes a little more ambiguous just what one might or might not be claiming by wearing them in the eventing context. Hmm . . .

I spoke to my trainer about it this afternoon, and she puzzled about it for a moment, but ultimately said she thought that if I like the look of the boots I shouldn't hesitate to get them. But she added that she was going to ask around about it.

[mbarrett]

Back to the original topic... Aigle makes plain black boots. Maybe you should just purchase those and you won't have to worry about making any fashion faux pas in the ring.

[Badger]

It would be in very bad taste to wear hunt colors or boot tops you have not earned, and would broadcast ignorance to all those around you who do know better. The colors and boot tops are perfectly acceptable in eventing and dressage competition IF you are a member of a hunt and have earned the colors and the right to wear them, but not otherwise. It'd be like showing up in a red coat for a novice horse trial because you like the color.

Brown tops are worn on black boots with white breeches. White breeches are worn with a pinque coat. Traditionally, this is the attire of gentlemen who have earned their colors. Black patent tops on black boots are worn with canary or buff breeches, which are traditionally worn with the black coat of a lady hunter who has earned her colors. There are exceptions, for example female masters in certain hunts wear pinque coats, and therefore white breeches and black boots with tan tops.

Just because you don't know and appreciate and understand all the nuances of hunt dress, don't think there won't be plenty of people around you who will be aware of your faux paux. They may be too polite to laugh at your face, but you'll be a laughing stock nonetheless.

[foxhuntingkiddo]

Alright, I need a little clarification. I am a junior member of a hunt and have been awarded my junior colors. I am competing in my first event this fall and my hunt coat with my colors attached is the only one I have. Am I allowed to compete in my coat with colors?

[eventer12]

as far as eventing goes.... don't men wear them when they are international level eventers?? i know many olympians wear them, so is there a certain level as far as eventing, not hunting, when riders wear brown tops??:confused:

[Ajierene]

So... I am supposed to be concerned about what people I don't know think of me?

It does not effect my score, so I don't care.

The 'nuances' of the hunt still have yet to be explained. Is it like the first rule of Fight Club?

Why would I care about the 'nuances' of a discipline I don't currently practice in? Hunting has nothing to do with Eventing. The only connection you can make is the Eventing cross country course, but Eventing was not derived from hunting.

Since no one has been able to explain how one can earn the boots, technically speaking, I could say I earn them by buying them.

As far as rules go - I cannot find any rules stating that only hunt members can wear hunt boots:

Dressage
"Boots—black, brown, field, jodhpur or a black
or brown full grain smooth leather leg piece and matching leather boots. Chaps and/or
half-chaps are not allowed. BOD 1/14/07 Effective 12/1/07" (pg 26)

Cross Country
"Boots—black, brown, field, jodhpur or a black or brown full grain smooth leather leg
piece and matching leather boots. Chaps or half-chaps are not allowed." (pg 27)

Stadium Jumping
"Boots—black, brown, field, jodhpur or a black or brown full grain
smooth leather leg piece and matching leather boots. Chaps or half-chaps are not allowed." (pg 27)

http://useventing.com/resources/files/docs/2008_usef_rules_for_eventing.pdf

[Alterageous]

I don't see how the hunt colors necessarily represent you as the hunt. Many people have never hunted and do not know what the colors mean or that those 'cool boots with the tan tops' are really hunt boots. To me, the difference is, different people at different hunts will be wearing colors for what could be called 'arbitrary'. I use the word arbitrary because if Hunt A has one rule and Hunt B has another rule, then it appears that the rules are just made up by the desires of the people running the hunt. Therefore, wearing the colors in a horse discipline outside the hunt cannot be assumed to mean anything.

My point was, if the behavior was acceptable (which would be the definition of "not unacceptable") then why is it punished?

And it is truly the mark of a poor horseman to not understand or appreciate the traditions that make his sport what it is. People may not know what they mean, but very little is done in equestrian sport that is simply decorative, so logically, it must have at one time meant something (or in this case, it still does.)

Why do we braid horses? It's not because someone tells us to. It's because it's a tradition stemming from the securing of the mane so it didn't become entangled while hunting. Certainly that is an unlikely circumstance in a dressage arena, but it became a tradition of turning your horse out formally, and we still do it today.

The GOVERNING rule is that boots with tan tops are worn by MALE hunt members who are in some way senior in a recognized hunt. What each individual hunt does falls under that overall principle. The boots always mean something--unless they're being worn by someone who feels that they look "nifty" in which case, that person has branded themselves as ignorant among the other participants of their sport.

Colors on the collar indicate you belong to a hunt. Which hunt doesn't matter. It is certainly a mark of DISRESPECT to all hunts in general to wear the attire of a senior member when you are not one. I was always taught that wearing attire appropriate to your level (and learning what that attire was, and WHY) was a mark of respect for your mount, and the sport. I guess that attitude no longer prevails.

Back in "the old days" military horses would double as foxhunt mounts for their riders on weekends. That was often where they would "school" cross country. It was excellent prep for the roads and tracks/steeplechase phase. All equestrian sport is in some way interrelated.

[Badger]

Alright, I need a little clarification. I am a junior member of a hunt and have been awarded my junior colors. I am competing in my first event this fall and my hunt coat with my colors attached is the only one I have. Am I allowed to compete in my coat with colors?

Yes

[Jaegermonster]

Alright, I need a little clarification. I am a junior member of a hunt and have been awarded my junior colors. I am competing in my first event this fall and my hunt coat with my colors attached is the only one I have. Am I allowed to compete in my coat with colors?

Yes it is considered correct to show with colors. I do it often at hunter shows.
Some of the other riders (the ignorant ones) look at them funny, but I have had several judges ask me about it.

[CarrieK]

Just because you don't know and appreciate and understand all the nuances of hunt dress, don't think there won't be plenty of people around you who will be aware of your faux paux. They may be too polite to laugh at your face, but you'll be a laughing stock nonetheless.

And this would effect Ajierene, for example, how? So a bunch of people she doesn't know at some event would stick up their noses and mock her--amongst themselves, of course, because they're far too "polite" to mock her to her face. So a bunch of folks sit around and call her a wannabe poser. Again, this would effect her how? Fer crissakes, it's not high school anymore. As long as the attire follows the rules of eventing, it's correct. Because, you know, it's an event. Not a hunt. Not a rodeo.

Really, I don't see how wearing a certain style of boots "represents" a hunt. Maybe every rider in Virginia or something would make that connection and shun you accordingly, but up here I just don't see it happening.

But then again, I didn't know that striped ties over in England represented certain schools or whatever, and if you're caught wearing an Oxford tie when you didn't go to Oxford it's curtains for you or whatever uptight Oxfordian fasion police do.

That said, I believe without question that at a hunt one should follow their rules of dress.

But you know what's funny? Over at the hunt forum someone is always asking if this piece of equipment is correct or can they "get away" with wearing this type of jacket. The answers are always, check with the hunt secretary, and then the addendum: but really, we just want you to show up and have fun. One poster over there seemed astonished: do hunting folk really seem so scarey? Well, yeah! Because it's almost like a cotillion or something.

I agree (and this is from someone who dreams of joining a hunt) with the opinion that a hunt is like a country club and not the military. Of course, to the members it's all serious.

[Jaegermonster]

The boot tops and collar colors are very serious to those of us who hunt because we worked very very hard to earn them. They actually do mean something to those of us who wear them, and we wear them proudly. It is an affront and personal insult to all of us for someone else to be so disrespectful and cavalier about them.

Of course some people manage to buy their colors rather than earn them, but I only know of a few of those in the hunts I am associated with.

I have colors with two hunts, and believe me when I tell you that I broke my a%$ for both of them, and continue to be a hard working member of both. It took many many years of hunting to earn my colors, and that included continuing on to walk out hounds all summer long for years and years, and clean kennels, bathe hounds, help panel territory and maintain fixtures, and so on and on.

So for someone to spit on something that we have all worked very hard to earn is very offensive to those of us who hunt.

That said, I would never "mock" someone behind their back that I saw wearing tops at a show. But you can bet I would approach them and ask what hunt they were master or huntsman of.

So if you want tops on your boots, join a hunt and earn them.

[Alterageous]

There comes a point when violating the traditional norms is in poor taste. It is one thing for someone to go out hunting in a jacket that is maybe navy even though it's cubbing season, or to wear field boots in formal season because they can't fit into their dress boots. It's quite another to show up wearing colors and expect to hunt like that.

I would certainly care if my peers in sport were judging me as a poor horseman because I couldn't be arsed to learn the traditions that govern the attire we wear. We have only one hunt in this entire state, but I know exactly what the tops and colors mean and that it's an honor to be gifted your colors, and I wouldn't dream of saying "well I think that looks nifty, I think I'll take up wearing it!"

[Ajierene]

And this would effect Ajierene, for example, how? .....

Thanks, I was just about to say that....


The boot tops and collar colors are very serious to those of us who hunt because we worked very very hard to earn them.

I understand what you are saying and would not wear the boots in a hunt, or the colors, if I did not earn them. But we are not talking about a hunt, we are talking about eventing.

There comes a point when violating the traditional norms is in poor taste......


Yes, violating and not understanding the traditions and norms of the sport you are participating in is in poor taste. I am not hunting, therefore the hunt rules do not apply. The event rules are the only ones that apply. The event rules state that the hunt style boots are acceptable. They do not state any prerequisites to wearing these style boots, therefore I can wear them if I want.

Honestly, if were wearing these boots and someone came up to me and asked what hunt I was in, I would reply that I am not in one. If they look at me funny, turn their nose up, call me slurs or spit on me - I couldn't care less. It is not worth my time to have someone look at me funny because I don't fit their fashion and traditions. Would not be the first time and far from the last time.

[rideforthelaurels16]

Mmmm, I had a very nice dream the other night that I went to a yard sale and found some pristine Der-Daus with tan tops that fit me perfectly, for $10. I wore them the rest of the dream and then woke up and was very dissapointed.

[Jaegermonster]

You just don't get it. It's called "gauche"

[Ajierene]

You just don't get it. It's called "gauche"

HA!

Oh yes, I can be rather gauche. Unfortunately I did not go to finishing school or grow up in proper aristocratic family. I lack the ability to worry about what I say or do outside of treating others as I would like to be treated.

Gee....I don't fit into that stuck up norm...gosh darn....somehow I am still happy.

Somehow I still don't care what you think about what I wear.

I am sure there are great hunt people out there. I just would not fit into the hunts where attire and etiquette was paramount to proper horsemanship and enjoying the ride.

[Outfox]

Just want to second the direct affiliation with a hunt to wear colors.

As the honorary whipper-in for LAH, which means I donate my time, the brown tops are something that I have earned with the years of hunt service.

But for fun and some style, I added LAH hunt buttons to my show coats,too. And everytime I put one on, I am reminded of all the fun LAH has as a club. It makes me smile at the events, even on dressage day.

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

Ajierene - All you've managed to accomplish at this point is to demonstrate your ignorance. Not everyone who hunts went to finishing school, has an aristocratic family and whatever other uppity stereotypes you are applying to foxhunters.



I lack the ability to worry about what I say or do outside of treating others as I would like to be treated.



All the foxhunters are asking is that their traditions being respected. I do not know you personally therefore it is impossible for me to give a specific example that relates to your life but I am fairly certain there is likely to be atleast one tradition in your life that you would be unhappy if it were disrespected in front of you, horse related or not. Your lack of respect towards hunters and their traditions makes me wonder how you can honestly make a statement like the one above. :no:

Regardless of the arena in which they are worn hunt top boots and color collars have a meaning and that should be respected.

[Outfox]

Ajierene - All you've managed to accomplish at this point is to demonstrate your ignorance. Not everyone who hunts went to finishing school, has an aristocratic family and whatever other uppity stereotypes you are applying to foxhunters.



All the foxhunters are asking is that their traditions being respected. I do not know you personally therefore it is impossible for me to give a specific example that relates to your life but I am fairly certain there is likely to be atleast one tradition in your life that you would be unhappy if it were disrespected in front of you, horse related or not. Your lack of respect towards hunters and their traditions makes me wonder how you can honestly make a statement like the one above. :no:

Regardless of the arena in which they are worn hunt top boots and color collars have a meaning and that should be respected.

Well said!!!

[CarrieK]

Both Ajierene and I have stated that if we were at a hunt, or hunt members, we would both follow the hunt's rules.

For goodness sake, it's just a pair of boots!

Now, if Ajierene or I were claiming to be hunt members or hunt staff, then you'd have a valid grump.

It's a just pair of boots. That a certain group of people, a social group, have attached meaning to a piece of clothing is their prerogative, of course. But really it's not the same as a non-police officer wearing a government official's uniform; it's not the same as someone claiming to be a cop who is not a cop.

I swear it sounds like gangs and territory. Better not wear that red bandana here or else you'll be sorry. Better not wear those boots to that event or you'll be sorry. I can almost hear "How dare you?" in outraged accents.

And foxhunting folks wonder why others think they're snobbish and exclusionary.

(And yes, I still want to join a hunt one day.)

[WilfredLeblanc]

If you are worried about expense AND comfort....skip the boots and get a good pair of padock boots and leggings/ 1/2chaps. They are legal now and I've worn them at events and clinics...

I realize paddock boots and gaiters are acceptable and that I could just carry on using them, but I feel like upgrading a bit.

[WilfredLeblanc]

I might emphasize, like a couple of respondents here, that I would never propose to wear veteran hunt members' attire as a newbie or guest hunter, except that this was fairly clear from the wording of my original post and doesn't bear emphasizing.

Since different hunts require different things to 'earn' the boots, it does not seem that you can look at someone that bought them off the shelf and say they did not earn them. It is not universal how they are earned, so wearing the colors does not mean as much to someone outside the hunt.

My inclination is to suppose that he absence of a specific achievement universally signified by the boots is noteworthy. If you can get them as a party favor for going on a touristy weekend hunt one time in Ireland, while a hunter in Rockbridge County, VA or Bucks County, PA has to sweat years to get them, what exactly can they be said to mean? Especially outside the context of hunting?

. . . [I] do not see the connection between hunting and eventing. To me they are two different disciplines and the rules of one do not transfer to the other.

. . . Which is part of the reason why I felt the question was worth posing in the first place. As we all know, eventing is its own discipline, and is derived from cavalry tests, not fox hunting, so the fox hunting community is probably not well situated to assume a paternalistic stance towards eventers' choice of attire. That said, if it so happens that hunters constitute a significant percentage of the eventing community--participants, spectators, judges, etc.--and not a slim minority, their sensibilities should at least be considered if not deferred to.

So perhaps the ancillary question is, does the population of an average event include a significant percentage of hunters? If I were to extrapolate from my own barn, I would have to assume the answer is no.

Bear in mind, too, that I'm in California, which in many spheres of life is much less overtly hierarchical than Maryland and Virginia (where I grew up) and has only the faintest simulacrum of the Anglophile squirearchy culture that one finds pockets of back east. I think there are a total of three hunts here--in the whole state. Maybe I should have stressed that at the beginning.

[WilfredLeblanc]

If they look at me funny, turn their nose up, call me slurs or spit on me . . .

Well, I can only chuckle at the prospect of any male behaving in anything even faintly resembling that way towards me, and I don't care if I show up to an event wearing the whole MFH nine yards.

A woman--well, I'd just gently suggest she reconsider the desirability of embarassing herself by exposing her bourgeois conceits so blatantly (even if she spat, hissed, kicked, and scratched!). There's nothing the tiniest bit aristocratic about condescension. People of any breeding whatsoever are gracious to one and all, but especially those they suspect are their social inferiors. And bona fide aristocrats, in fact, do exactly as they please and understand perfectly when others do likewise. To be sure, the feedback provided here by a number of soi-disant "hunters who've earned their colors" suggests some pretty absurd pretentions and profound class anxiety on their part, and does seem very foreign in tone to what I've encountered on those rare occasions I've discussed the possibility of going hunting with those who are indeed in that orbit.

[Badger]

It's a bit like adding the letters "MD" or "DDS" or "DVM" after your name because you like the looks of it, when you haven't invested the time and energy to acquire the knowledge, skills, and certification that those letters represent.

Doing so when you don't know any better screams out ignorance. Doing so when you have been informed why it is in bad form (which was the original question) says even more.

[merry_one]

No idea.

Ian Stark often wore his brown-topped boots for dressage at the 4* level. IMO it's not bad form. Maybe some posters are confusing what's "in" with what's correct. In any event, wear what you like and feel comfortable in. Oh, and on that note, I'd skip the Aigles - synthetic boots are murder to ride in (slippery, hot, bad fit etc.).

I have a pair of Aigles that I regularly hunt in in Ireland. LOVE them! I have warm dry feet at the end of the day and if you look around the pack, most everyone has them on. I don't wear them much in the summer, but on the wet days, glad that they are packed in the trailer. I would not substitute them for a good fitting pair of leather boots though.

While I am not a died-in-the-wool hunt expert, I have to agree that having brown tops because of the look, not earned, is a being a bit of a poser. Ian hunts and has earned his colors. And I may be wrong here but once upon a time, wasn't proper eventing turnout based on the hunt field? For some reason that still rattled around in my head.

[Alterageous]

You all do realize that the actual attire rules are directly derived from formal hunting attire, correct?

To say that the sports aren't related is even more ignorant.

It's not that a particular group of members has attached some sort of irrelevant significance to the boot. In equestrian sport, the boot symbolizes something. To earn your colors is one of the highest honors a hunt can bestow upon you. It's not only gauche, it's rude, to say "well I attach no significance to this so it's fine if I wear it." Whether or not people themselves foxhunt, most horsemen understand the meaning and origin of the attire and would attach a significance to it. Just because YOU don't hunt and therefore, claim to not know all these ridiculous rules, doesn't mean EVERYONE is similarly situated.

Truly the mark of a poor horseman to feign ignorance when defying a tradition of his sport for such a selfish reason as "well I think it looks neat and no one says I can't."

[J Swan]

You're not the only veteran on this board. Before trying to educate us all on what non-judicial punishment is, please make sure none of us can call you on it. If you'd like to know what happens to servicemembers, including general officers, who are caught wearing decorations they did not earn, we can have a discussion on that. At the very least you suffer public ridicule - as well you should. It's shameful - and shows disprect to those who have fought and died.

And you need to check out your own regs - there is a hunt in Ft. Leavenworth, KS. Servicemembers hunt with them all the time. In uniform. Military dress is appropriate for equine competition as well as hunting. A hunt welcomes servicemembers with open arms and gratitude for their service.

You cannot admit you know nothing about foxhunting, and then in another post make some pretty bold statements about how and why colors are worn, how they are awarded, and what those colors are supposed to represent. And I find it appalling that you would show such complete disrespect to the traditions of another sport, and attempt to diminish and denigrate a group of people who helped create the sport of eventing, who support it, who compete alongside you, who work diligently to protect the open space you compete on, and merely ask that you refrain from showing disrespect to their traditions.

While foxhunting is also a club - the roots of hunting and eventing are the same. The military. The discipline, traditions, and manner of the military, including hierarchy.

One thing that is sadly lacking in eventing is that people don't exercise the discipline that the sport requires. You think that you can just write a check - writing a check, wearing a certain item of clothing, or tack, or buying a made horse - is the shortcut to getting what you want. Screw everyone else, screw tradition, screw responsibility, screw respect.

To this veteran, former eventer, and foxhunter, your comments are not only disrespectful, they reflect poorly on your character and your ethics. They also reveal a lack of discipline, which reflects poorly on the image of this sport, and doesn't do much for the image of the US military, either.

This forum is full of threads and posts about personal responsibility, discipline, rules, improving the sport, complaints about people who think money is a substitute for training, people wanting to get back to basics, people complaining about unsportsmanlike behavior, and here you are exhibiting the same poor behavior and gloating about it. Believe it or not, there are PLENTY of people who know what hunt colors are - and if they found out you were wearing such items without being awarded them - it WOULD reflect very poorly not only on you - but on the sport as well.

I certainly think less of you - and those that share your opinion. And if servicemembers in today's military have the same lax attitude towards discipline and honors, I am deeply and profoundly disappointed.

There is nothing snobby or condescending about my posts on this subject - but the posts by some of you reek of it. Few if any of you even know the first thing about this sport - and yet are full of some pretty baseless and downright silly misconceptions. When eventing is subjected to such ignorant comments - you fall all over yourselves trying to correct people. I've gone to great lengths to try and educate the public on eventing, particularly the recent problems in the sport. I've rarely read a post by an eventer that had anything intelligent to say about foxhunting - unless that person foxhunted as well.

When foxhunting is subjected to the same misinformation, our rules and sport dismissed with laughter - we're called snobby? And now we have a new member that again, knows nothing about the sport yet feels very comfortable maligning everything about it.







I'm not quite sure what you are asking, because Article 15 is basically a punishment without record.

Getting an Article 15 depends on the offense, and the mood of your superiors on that day.

It can be anything from coming in late to much to stealing to underage drinking.


I don't see how the hunt colors necessarily represent you as the hunt. Many people have never hunted and do not know what the colors mean or that those 'cool boots with the tan tops' are really hunt boots. To me, the difference is, different people at different hunts will be wearing colors for what could be called 'arbitrary'. I use the word arbitrary because if Hunt A has one rule and Hunt B has another rule, then it appears that the rules are just made up by the desires of the people running the hunt. Therefore, wearing the colors in a horse discipline outside the hunt cannot be assumed to mean anything.

[Equibrit]

Now, if Ajierene or I were claiming to be hunt members or hunt staff, then you'd have a valid grump.



That is precisely what you would be doing by wearing hunt livery.

[Ajierene]

And you need to check out your own regs - there is a hunt in Ft. Leavenworth, KS. Servicemembers hunt with them all the time. In uniform. Military dress is appropriate for equine competition as well as hunting. A hunt welcomes servicemembers with open arms and gratitude for their service.

Um...I did check the regs. There is no authorization in the military for wearing the uniform shirt and jacket with boots and breeches. Remember, the regs change over time. Someone no longer in the service (retired or separated) wearing the uniform would be different, since he is no longer in, but those active are out of regs by wearing any part of the uniform with breeches and tall boots. So much for military discipline.

http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r670_1.pdf

You cannot admit you know nothing about foxhunting, and then in another post make some pretty bold statements about how and why colors are worn, how they are awarded, and what those colors are supposed to represent. And I find it appalling that you would show such complete disrespect to the traditions of another sport, and attempt to diminish and denigrate a group of people who helped create the sport of eventing, who support it, who compete alongside you, who work diligently to protect the open space you compete on, and merely ask that you refrain from showing disrespect to their traditions.

Anything I have stated about how the colors are earned are derived from this thread. As noted in the post you quote, the word arbitrary is used because various threads have stated that different hunts require different things to earn the colors. Where have I stated anything specific about how the colors are earned at a hunt?

While foxhunting is also a club - the roots of hunting and eventing are the same. The military. The discipline, traditions, and manner of the military, including hierarchy.

Where do you get this information? Everything I have ever read about fox hunting states that fox hunting started with farmers chasing the foxes (vermin) out of their farms and developed into a leisure sport of the aristocracy. I have never read anything about fox hunting being part of the military. Many cavalry members may have fox hunted in the past, but the fact that they were all always officers and officers were very predominantly aristocratic, the connection is still wealthy (or those looking to improve their status) with fox hunting.

Please give me references where fox hunting was developed to help the military train.
http://www.derbyfoxes.org/history.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_hunting
http://www.thefoxwebsite.org/foxhunting/hunthistory.html
http://www.freedomfields.net/foxhunting_in_virginia.html


One thing that is sadly lacking in eventing is that people don't exercise the discipline that the sport requires. You think that you can just write a check - writing a check, wearing a certain item of clothing, or tack, or buying a made horse - is the shortcut to getting what you want. Screw everyone else, screw tradition, screw responsibility, screw respect.

I am not quite sure what proper horsemanship has to do with what boots you wear. Please elaborate.

This forum is full of threads and posts about personal responsibility, discipline, rules, improving the sport, complaints about people who think money is a substitute for training, people wanting to get back to basics, people complaining about unsportsmanlike behavior, and here you are exhibiting the same poor behavior and gloating about it. Believe it or not, there are PLENTY of people who know what hunt colors are - and if they found out you were wearing such items without being awarded them - it WOULD reflect very poorly not only on you - but on the sport as well.

I still fail to see where lack of training is linked to the boots that you wear.

I certainly think less of you - and those that share your opinion. And if servicemembers in today's military have the same lax attitude towards discipline and honors, I am deeply and profoundly disappointed.

Again, this is where there is a disconnect. We are not talking about disregarding fox hunting traditions in fox hunting, we are talking about a fashion choice in eventing. If an active duty service member wears his uniform incorrectly, it needs to be corrected. If a non-servicemembers wears the uniform incorrectly, then have at it.

When foxhunting is subjected to the same misinformation, our rules and sport dismissed with laughter - we're called snobby? And now we have a new member that again, knows nothing about the sport yet feels very comfortable maligning everything about it.

Are you refering to me? I do not believe I have said anything maligning about fox hunting. I have stated that I don't believe the traditions of one discipline should be imposed on another discipline. To me, it is not fair. Not everyone has the spare money or opportunity to hunt, yet you want to tell non-hunters how to dress.

As far as putting on boots being similar to putting MD or DVM by your name. This is not nearly the same because by putting those initials next to your name, you are stating you can save lives/keep people healthy. Boots don't say that. Some people may infer that you are a member of a hunt when you are not, but that is like wearing a college t-shirt or lettermans jacket and someone thinking you went to college or were on that team when you are not.

I have tried to think of some tradition where I would be horribly offended if someone outside the tradition (sport, organization, etc.) and could not. Personally, I don't like Christmas being shortened to Xmas, but I don't hold it against other people. I prefer the rules of the flag to be followed, but I'm knocking on doors and car windows explaining to people that the flag is facing the wrong way or in the wrong spot or is out when it should not be. First - they need to know the rules in order to follow them and secondly, in the grand scheme of things following those rules to the letter is not the end all be all of being an American.

I guess you could say I am not as big on tradition as other people are and therefore fail to see the big deal. People walk down the street all the time wearing partial uniforms of professional teams or colors of colleges they never went to, or parts of the military uniform that they never served in. It does not mean they are trying to be someone they aren't. It just means they like the color/comfort of the attire.

Like Wilfredleblanc, I don't see a lot of people that hunt and event these days. It was probably a lot more decades ago when only the military was allowed to event and when eventing first became mainstream, but I do not see it today.

[Trakehner]

New dressage rider in her first training level class shows up in a shadbelly coat and topper...I just know people would say, "but she likes the look of the yellow tips and it's just a costume". Sure they would! I know I "earned" my shadbelly way back when and get pissed when posers dress in things they didn't earn...even if it's a fashion statement.

Same with calf-tops...you are awarded the right to wear these in foxhunts...I also earned these way back when and got "blooded" when I was 8. Just like posers wearing a coat with the hunt buttons of a hunt where they're not a member...."but I like the fox head and design on the button" the poser would mew...Sorry, but you didn't earn them.

I still ride with my helmet ribbon down not stapled up...I earned (literally) that change.

Is it important and the world will end? Heck no! These are all something small...but part of showing english is history, the rules, earning certain things....sometimes, just because a poser wants to do something just isn't enough justification for "pimping" themselves.

[J Swan]

Please contact the Ft. Leavenworth hunt. They have a website. Also please check your regs again -as there is a way for servicemembers to hunt in uniform.

No, your information about foxhunting is still not correct. Since foxhunters have been very forthcoming in describing how colors are earned, what the shared history is between foxhunters and eventers, I would think you'd have the good manners to acknowledge it. How about showing RESPECT for the traditions of another sport.

This isn't a fashion statement. Wearing the livery of a hunt MEANS something. It MEANS something if I go into the ring with the ribbons of my hunt cap down. It MEANS something to wear livery. When you wear the accoutrements of a member who has been awarded colors - YOU ARE HOLDING YOURSELF OUT TO BE SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT.

It's a lie. Get it? It's not a fashion statement. You not only look like an ass, you're LYING.

Colors are awarded for a deep committment to the sport, for excellence and sportsmanship in the field, including demonstrating superior riding skills. Colors are also awarded because the individual has publicly demonstrated a thorough knowledge about houndwork, about scent, and about horsemanship. They are also committed to ensuring the welfare and safety of the hounds, and often work very hard to protect open space for sport and competition. Members with colors are the leaders. People with colors have often worked - for many many years - to earn the colors you disparage so thoughtlessly. When you wear such things - you are saying that you've done something you have NOT DONE.

Other horse sports recognize and accept such marks of distinction as appropriate for wear in their competitions. This has been normal and accepted practice for over 100 years.

When you wear the marks of disctinction - you are stating publicly that you have earned the right to wear them. It does not matter that you don't care what other people think. It does not matter that you can afford to buy them and you think they're cute. It's a lie. You're a liar. It's unethical. It's unsporting. It also doesn't matter if your trainer thinks it's ok.

Horse sports are increasingly populated by ignorant people who know NOTHING about the history behind the very sport they're engaging in. You are such a person. It's ok to be ignorant - it's not ok to insist you're right despite evidence to the contrary.

Again - when you wear items that are given as a honor or reward, and you did not earn them - YOU ARE LYING. You are representing yourself to be something you are not. It doesn't matter that eventing isn't hunting. What matters is that competitors are good sportsmen. By publicly proclaiming that you don't care about the traditions of another sport - you demonstrate that you're a liar, a charlatan, and unsporting. You diminish those who have worked - very very hard for many years, to become superior horsemen, to learn about scent and hounds and houndwork. That's what the boots and colors and buttons say. That the person wearing them as gone above and beyond what is expected - who can be relied upon. Who has demonstrated superior riding skills; who has rendered great service in the field. And it says that where ever you wear them - out hunting or in competition.

Members are permitted to wear military decorations, did you know that? Our sport recognizes and has a deep and profound respect for those who have served our country. It does not matter to us that a particular medal has no relation to foxhunting - what matters to us is that we show RESPECT to the person whose dedication, service and commitment has been recognized.

And yet you - a servicemember and fellow horseman - fail to extend that basic courtesy to us.


So you can keep arguing over who can wear what - or you can accept the fact that MAYBE some of us have more experience under our belts and are attempting to educate you. You asked the same question in the hunting forum and got the same answer. It's NOT ok. The sport welcomes newcomers, but livery is a serious subject.

So is lying.

And you need to get out more. Foxhunting and eventing have a great deal of crossover. Foxhunting is thriving in the US, even if you choose to ignore that fact. Plenty of eventers foxhunt, and many hunt clubs hold xc clinics and schooling sessions to teach people how to ride xc.

You're spitting on some of the very people who help keep eventing possible in the US. If this is the thanks we're going to get - perhaps our energies are better directed elsewhere. Try learning instead of making assumptions.

[zagafi]

Well, I've learned on thing from this thread. I'm even less interested in foxhunting than I was before. Yes, I understand tradition. But for Christ's sake, folks--you're riding a HORSE, not curing cancer, not feeding the homeless or rescuing orphans. Yeesh.

[Ajierene]

Please contact the Ft. Leavenworth hunt. They have a website. Also please check your regs again -as there is a way for servicemembers to hunt in uniform.

I am not talking about hunt regulations, I am talking about military regulations, which trump hunt regulations. Please show me where I am incorrect about military dress and appearance.

While you state that the colors mean something, there is no distinction on what they mean. Different hunts require different things. One poster on this thread stated that yes, some people do buy their colors rather than earn them through blood and sweat. Another poster noted that in Ireland you can earn the boots by fox hunting as a guest while touring the area. Since they mean different things to different people and hunts, I fail to see how you can reasonable state that someone cannot wear the boots when they have never been a member of the hunt.

I fail to see where fox hunters have been the primary reason eventing is still around today. Eventing came from the military, fox hunting is a leisure sport. Yes, fox hunters do event, but so do dressage riders and hunter/jumpers. Can you elaborate on how eventing would not be here today if it were not for Fox hunters?

I agree with zagafi - really just makes me not want to join a fox hunt, but does not make me not want to wear the hunt boots in a show. It is horseback riding, not saving lives.

[Mustang51]

So now I'm curious, what does the ribbon down on the hunt cap signify?

And thanks to all for the rest of the info. I had the suspicion that the boot tops meant something in a foxhunt but I wasn't sure.

So, if I was considering getting hunt top boots for eventing (and I do think they look nice), if for no other reason I'd look at it practically: someday I'll probably have the oportunity to go foxhunting and I wouldn't want to have to buy a new pair of boots at that time- At $500+ a pair (yeah I need customs) I don't want boots that aren't going to be useable for all activities!

But anyway, personally I wouldn't want to wear something that says 'I'm a member of a hunt' if I wasn't...

[seeuatx]

I hate to be a thread stopper or whatever they are called, but I am not sure I see the point of this thread anymore. The OP asked if it was bad form (aka manners, aka rude, aka gouche)... the answer is a resounding yes. What anyone does beyond that is on them. But I have to wonder... If you don't give two figs that it is bad form, and are more concerned that they look pretty, why ask? And yes, there are many foxhunters who event, and they as well as anyone who pony clubbed for more than a week, and anyone who cares for the traditions of equestrian sport, will know that you are pretending to be something you are not.

PS, the ribbons down on the hunt caps.... those CO helmets drive me nuts. They signify that the person is a professional, correct?

[Jazzy Lady]

Just wanted to ask something that someone asked before but it never got answered. Some male eventers at the top of the sport get brown tops when they also get their team coat. Is this not the same as "earning" them in the hunting world, but for the eventing world?

Is the brown for eventers a different colour than the tan for hunters?

[Fergs]

PS, the ribbons down on the hunt caps.... those CO helmets drive me nuts. They signify that the person is a professional, correct?


I'd like to know what the ribbon in the down position signifies, too. Because it's not just the newer CO helmets...I ride dressage in a proper English Lock hat that has a dangling ribbon in the back....I don't think they come any other way.

[Alterageous]

A ribbon down on a hunt cap indicates a member of staff. Originally the ribbons were put on hunt caps to drain the rain away from the hat and keep it from going down the collar of one's jacket or dripping down your neck. The indication, by having your ribbons down, is that staff members must stay out with the field in inclement weather, while junior members did not have to "suffer" the weather and could go in and therefore kept their ribbons up.

it is an earned privilege, just as colors are. Many small things are significant in hunting, down to the number of buttons on your jacket (the Master and amateur whippers-in wear four, while other professional hunt members wear five). The number of braids used to indicate the gender of your horse.

There are lots of traditions that carry over in the attire we wear. They're part of our sport. While some smaller details have fallen by the wayside such as the number of buttons or the hat ribbons, some remain pretty much immutable, and top boots and colors remain high on that list.

J Swan said it far better than I could have-- that would be the benefit of his/her years of experience over me and likely his/her ability to communicate the significance of hunt attire is one of the many acquired skills of huntsmanship that led to the awarding of colors.

By the way, it's very rare to be able to purchase colors. I know people who have been hunting longer than I have been alive who still have not earned theirs, and my hunt has a minimum of 3 years of dedicated service before one will even be put into consideration for colors. I think the impression here is that it's some kind of rank to be issued your colors and while in a way it is, far more than that it is a personal honor bestowed upon you by the MFH of your hunt.

[SteeleRdr]

I hate to be a thread stopper or whatever they are called, but I am not sure I see the point of this thread anymore. The OP asked if it was bad form (aka manners, aka rude, aka gouche)... the answer is a resounding yes. What anyone does beyond that is on them. But I have to wonder... If you don't give two figs that it is bad form, and are more concerned that they look pretty, why ask? And yes, there are many foxhunters who event, and they as well as anyone who pony clubbed for more than a week, and anyone who cares for the traditions of equestrian sport, will know that you are pretending to be something you are not.

PS, the ribbons down on the hunt caps.... those CO helmets drive me nuts. They signify that the person is a professional, correct?

You are correct about the ribbons down. They signify professional staff of a hunt. I have several CO helmets and on each I have "tucked up" the ribbons to be in correspondence.

For other posters: to say that Foxhunters don't event is ridiculous. Check out some of the bigger names in the sport and even on the lower level, MANY hunt. Also, if you weren't aware, many of the pony clubs that sponsor events and other activities involving eventing are affiliated or were affiliated with a hunt. I'm not sure where some of you are from, but just look at the names of the pony clubs. Here there is: Redland Hunt PC, Iron Bridge PC, etc. There have been several threads regarding hunts that support PC's...which from my understanding has a big focus on eventing.

And if you don't like the analogy that JSwan set forth regarding DVM and MD, how about other titles (with non-life saving implications) such as Esq, Duke, Dutchess, Prince, Princess, Lady, Lord...etc. They are titles that are earned (either by service or through blood, as in hunting: either through work and dedication or "buying" your colors) and to put yourself out as one of the above is a lie.

Personally, I respect other disciplines. When I show in the hunters, I don't go out and show in my shad because it is formal attire for hunting, that is saved for classics. I try to make myself aware of the traditions of other disciplines within our ONE sport.

And I personally think that calling foxhunters "snobby" is a bit out of line. We're a fun loving group, and yes we have our traditions. And talk about making a person not want to join another discipline. I believe the type-casting done in this thread by the eventers has done to turn me OFF to eventing more.

JMHO

(And as a side note: the hunt I currently hunt with does award "colors," however, they are not to be worn in the field by the members in the sense that most think. Basically you are just allowed to put the hunts "buttons" on your coat. Each hunt does it differently, but again, you should still respect the "traditional rules")

[J Swan]

And I am referring to military regulations as well. So contact Ft. Leavenworth Hunt since their members hunt and compete in uniform. I wish more servicemembers did.

Let me put it to you this way. You are making value based decision on a sport you know nothing about - and choosing to believe only that which is convenient to your argument.

If you choose to believe only what is convenient to you - note that nowhere in any literature, horse sport, or reference material that indicates livery denotes anything OTHER than being awarded colors in a hunt. No sport delves into the reasons people are awarded colors. If I earn mine by my knowledge of hounds, and another earns theres by hosting xc clinics open to all riders, and another places an easement on their farm to allow horse trials or hunting to continue..... that is not relevant. They've earned it. If you ape the look.... you're lying.

Other horse sports, out of respect to the shared history and traditions, permit those awarded colors, as well as those in military service, to wear livery/uniform in competition. Not just in the US; it's true of international competition.

As this thread pertains to my comments about the problems in eventing - look at it this way. To me, someone who has done both sports - what I see is more evidence that riders are no longer willing to exert self-discipline or personal responsibility. You're no longer willing to do things like EARN the right to move up the levels - you just buy what you need and go. And it's pretty cool to buy the stuff that is intended to signify that you have a level of skill or ability that you don't.

Just buy it. If someone tells you no - just keep asking until someone tells you yes.

And that's what you're doing. Basically you're saying that the rules don't apply to you. That you don't need to listen to folks that know more, because it's cool and you want to do it - so you just want to buy it.

And then you go into the start box and kill your horse or yourself..... because someone told you no - you can't do that because you lack the skill....but you just kept asking until someone told you yes.

It's true that these are just pieces of cloth or leather. But they are intended to signify something. So is the adage that you have to earn your spurs, or earn the double bridle, or earn the shadbelly. It's not snobbery, or an attempt to exclude.

It's an attempt to ensure that people are educated and competent enough horsemen. To demonstrate, through experience and hard work - that they have superior skills.

And what you want to do is take a shortcut. Form but no substance. And in that sense - it's among the reasons why horses and riders are getting killed in this sport.

And if you doubt that - try asking Denny Emerson, Jimmy Wofford, Leslie Law, or the O'Connors. Or any other eventer you respect. One of the biggest problems in horse sports is that people have plenty of money to buy stuff, and look fabulous in all their fancy gear - but don't have any skills.

You can keep rephrasing the question - but the answer is no. In case you'd ever like to learn why, try foxhunting and see firsthand what those colors signify. In the meantime, I'm going to rethink my plans to offer xc clinics on my farm. Because if this thread is representative of the sportsmanship in event riders, I want nothing to do with you. Good luck finding places to school and compete.

You might try asking around to see what sorts of horse people are working their butts off trying to preserve open space - before asserting that foxhunters don't have any connection to eventing.

I am not talking about hunt regulations, I am talking about military regulations, which trump hunt regulations. Please show me where I am incorrect about military dress and appearance.

While you state that the colors mean something, there is no distinction on what they mean. Different hunts require different things. One poster on this thread stated that yes, some people do buy their colors rather than earn them through blood and sweat. Another poster noted that in Ireland you can earn the boots by fox hunting as a guest while touring the area. Since they mean different things to different people and hunts, I fail to see how you can reasonable state that someone cannot wear the boots when they have never been a member of the hunt.

I fail to see where fox hunters have been the primary reason eventing is still around today. Eventing came from the military, fox hunting is a leisure sport. Yes, fox hunters do event, but so do dressage riders and hunter/jumpers. Can you elaborate on how eventing would not be here today if it were not for Fox hunters?

I agree with zagafi - really just makes me not want to join a fox hunt, but does not make me not want to wear the hunt boots in a show. It is horseback riding, not saving lives.

[J Swan]

If yiou take up foxhunting, it will most likely be years before you earned your colors. Before then, you'd not be permitted to wear those boots.

What you wear for stadium would be fine. You don't need fancy gear to foxhunt. This sport is all about being warm, dry and thorn resistant.

If you stuck with it and earned your colors, and still had those plain boots you started with, all is not lost! You go to a saddler and they put removable boot tops on them. Now, you've got a nice pair of boots that you can use for hunting, and you can take the boot tops off if you guest with another hunt. Because..... drum roll please, you don't usually wear your colors when you ride with another hunt - unless you are given permission. Colors also signify that you know the territory - and know where property lines are. So you're supposed to know where NOT to go.

Anyway - come out hunting and you'll have a blast - and your hard work will pay off on the xc course. You'll be a steadier, more educated rider - with or without boot tops.

It seems silly - but colors really and honestly do mean something. So now I'm curious, what does the ribbon down on the hunt cap signify?

And thanks to all for the rest of the info. I had the suspicion that the boot tops meant something in a foxhunt but I wasn't sure.

So, if I was considering getting hunt top boots for eventing (and I do think they look nice), if for no other reason I'd look at it practically: someday I'll probably have the oportunity to go foxhunting and I wouldn't want to have to buy a new pair of boots at that time- At $500+ a pair (yeah I need customs) I don't want boots that aren't going to be useable for all activities!

But anyway, personally I wouldn't want to wear something that says 'I'm a member of a hunt' if I wasn't...

[sisu27]

Oh, and on that note, I'd skip the Aigles - synthetic boots are murder to ride in (slippery, hot, bad fit etc.).

Ah, yuck! I was forced to wear Aigles for schooling as a child and they got SO disgusting in the summer. I would end up with a sludge in the bottom that required hosing out, they never actually dried out inside and I had wicked athletes foot. Thanks mum and dad!

[Ajierene]

So basically you are saying that because the sweat I put into riding as a child, including biking to the barn and cleaning stalls every day after school to bike back home doesn't mean anything because it wasn't done in a fox hunt farm?

You are saying because I did not fox hunt, I have no horsemanship and am buying my way into the sport, even though the only way I was able to afford my mare was through riding other horses and cleaning stalls? Even though I make sacrifices every day just to keep my horse and continue my education?

You are saying because there was no Pony Club near me, and even if there was there was no way my parents would pay for it - means I am worthless as a horseperson?

You are saying that I think the rules of eventing do not apply to me because I don't follow your fox hunting traditions?

You are saying that because I do not have a spare few thousand dollars (including fees and gas money, etc.) to drop every year just to fox hunt, I am not worth as much as you?

This is the impression I am getting. As I stated before - in a fox hunting venue, I would be respectful of the colors, but I am not in that venue.

[Alterageous]

No, we are saying that you are behaving in an ignorant fashion about traditions in an equestrian sport. Disrespecting tradition is poor horsemanship, yes, if it's done knowingly, which obviously it is with this huffy "I can do whatever I want" attitude.

Hunt colors have nothing to do with caring for the horses. That is EXPECTED behavior. One earns colors by service to the HUNT. Volunteering to care for dogs, puppy sit, go out on training hunts, cleaning kennels, managing funds, planning the hunt ball. Providing a staff service. By LEARNING the things needed to make one an active contributor to the hunt--property lines, hound behavior, fox behavior, etc.

Because you "don't have a few thousand dollars" you don't hunt. Fine. No one cares. But that means you don't get to pass yourself off as someone who does. Action, meet consequence.

You're not getting it. Hunt colors are worn in FORMAL equestrian situations, not just for a day of hunting. They are worn for the hunt ball, and there sure as heck aren't even any horses there! Competition is a formal equestrian event, no matter the DISCIPLINE under which it takes place. Thus, you would wear your formal hunt attire--unless, of course, you didn't earn the honor of that attire. The attire that is provided for in the rules? That's standard formal attire. For those who have earned their colors, formal attire is different--collar, buttons, boots, ribbons, etc. But all are wearing formal hunt attire when they go to compete in dressage or stadium (aka, judged events) and you are effectively committing the same sin as you would if you showed up to hunt wearing attire you didn't earn. This is where tradition ties into the rules of eventing.

You know why the rules say boots must be black? Because brown boots are considered for the informal hunt season only (cubbing) and therefore, were not considered to be formal enough to wear in a competition venue. It all comes from the SAME PLACE and in a roundabout way, you ARE in a hunting venue at a horse show.

[tangledweb]

Wearing hunt livery and wearing tan top boots are entirely different. In a great many hunts, but perhaps not all, it is entirely correct for a gentleman who has not been awarded colours to wear tan tops and white breeches with a black frock coat and top hat.

Colours are earned. Boots are just bought at a shop.

Of course, almost nobody wears a top hat, so many people do not know that.

[linquest]

It is true that eventing is a military discipline. I don't believe that eventing wouldn't exist at all if not for foxhunting. However, to say that eventing's traditions have nothing to do with foxhunting is not a true statement either. Think about it...at some point in time after eventing was opened to civilians, the eventing establishment decided to make foxhunting attire the standard rather than modifying the military uniform and making that the standard. Formal eventing attire includes: black velvet HUNT cap, black/navy HUNT coat, stock tie/pin. Field boots (though traditionally brown) are also from foxhunting from "cubbing" season. These pieces of attire are derived from foxhunting, not military tradition.

Eventing may not be as directly descended from foxhunting like show hunters are as a discipline (ha, you should see the threads on THAT topic!) but the modern eventing attire traditions certainly are. If you want to respect the eventing attire traditions, you ought to respect the foxhunting traditions. If you're the "who cares as long as it doesn't break the rules" type, then.... In any case, seeuatx was right. OP's question was asked and answered.

[Whistlejacket]

Bear in mind, too, that I'm in California, which in many spheres of life is much less overtly hierarchical than Maryland and Virginia (where I grew up) and has only the faintest simulacrum of the Anglophile squirearchy culture that one finds pockets of back east. I think there are a total of three hunts here--in the whole state. Maybe I should have stressed that at the beginning.

To the OP -

Perhaps another way to look at your original question is to ask yourself what is your relationship to and what value do you place on the traditions that go hand-in-hand with each of the equestrian disciplines. This question is individual and personal and transcends whether you live in the "uptight" East coast or the more "laid back" CA area.

Like any tradition, the traditions that go with the equestrian sports (including foxhunting) have their quirks, can be idiosyncratic, often their original basis is no longer functionally relevant in modern times, and sometimes they are misused for commercial gain (e.g. souvenir boot tops).

So you then can ask yourself: Do you (for yourself) value and honor those traditions for tradition sake? Or not?

In essence, it is a question between you and yourself.

WJ

[2ndyrgal]

No, that is not what JSwan said. You may be a consumate horseman. You may have the knowledge and skill to compete at whatever level you choose. But, you wouldn't walk around wearing a priest's collar or a nuns habit, just because you liked the look or the comfort, because,,,, you would be, perceived to be something you are not. It is about the perception and believe me, nearly anyone you ask that is a serious competitor, will know exactly what those boot tops mean. It does not matter the discipline. We, as experience horsemen, in all disciplines, know what boot tops signify. As do you, since you asked. Since you know what they mean, and we know what they mean, if you choose to wear something that there are only certain ways you earn, and you haven't, then yes, you are holding yourself out to be something you aren't. Yes they are cool, and the reason they are, is because only the best will ever be awarded the right to wear them. Black/Green Berets are cool too, but even my USMC Iraqi war vet son wouldn't dream of donning one casually. So go fly in the face of tradition if you want, but I hope your dressage judge is a foxhunter.

[tangledweb]

Yes it is considered correct to show with colors. I do it often at hunter shows.
Some of the other riders (the ignorant ones) look at them funny, but I have had several judges ask me about it.

If you were male you would presumably not event in scarlet?

[KCsToo]

...hope your dressage judge is a foxhunter.[/QUOTE]


LOL!

[Speedy]

Who knew that eventers had it in them to discuss fashion for 5 pages??

[xeroxchick]

Ahem.
I believe that this affects Ms. A in that she even asked to begin with.
If she truly didn't care, then she would do it without all this argumentative nonsense.
The truth of it is, all those who feel self-congratulatory because they "don't care what people think" are dismissing a basic element of human contact and regard.
People with knowledge and experience *will notice* and will not form a positive conclusion. By being disrespectfull of hunt traditions and ettiquite, you are alienating potential collegues and friends and only impressing the ignorant. It seems insensitive and bully-ish to "not care what people think." These First impressions on strangers could encourage more contact and friendlyness. How one presents onesself actually says quite a bit about one. First impressions are hard to change and often very accurate.


And this would effect Ajierene, for example, how? So a bunch of people she doesn't know at some event would stick up their noses and mock her--amongst themselves, of course, because they're far too "polite" to mock her to her face. So a bunch of folks sit around and call her a wannabe poser. Again, this would effect her how? Fer crissakes, it's not high school anymore. As long as the attire follows the rules of eventing, it's correct. Because, you know, it's an event. Not a hunt. Not a rodeo.

Really, I don't see how wearing a certain style of boots "represents" a hunt. Maybe every rider in Virginia or something would make that connection and shun you accordingly, but up here I just don't see it happening.

But then again, I didn't know that striped ties over in England represented certain schools or whatever, and if you're caught wearing an Oxford tie when you didn't go to Oxford it's curtains for you or whatever uptight Oxfordian fasion police do.

That said, I believe without question that at a hunt one should follow their rules of dress.

But you know what's funny? Over at the hunt forum someone is always asking if this piece of equipment is correct or can they "get away" with wearing this type of jacket. The answers are always, check with the hunt secretary, and then the addendum: but really, we just want you to show up and have fun. One poster over there seemed astonished: do hunting folk really seem so scarey? Well, yeah! Because it's almost like a cotillion or something.

I agree (and this is from someone who dreams of joining a hunt) with the opinion that a hunt is like a country club and not the military. Of course, to the members it's all serious.

[BAC]

I understand the the colors are earned...somehow...(though I always though that the boots just meant you were a member - just paid your dues, so no 'earning' involved...but I don't know much about the hunt).

Then it might be best to learn something about hunting before you responded.

I totally agree with J.Swan's reply.

[Alterageous]

Wearing hunt livery and wearing tan top boots are entirely different. In a great many hunts, but perhaps not all, it is entirely correct for a gentleman who has not been awarded colours to wear tan tops and white breeches with a black frock coat and top hat.

Colours are earned. Boots are just bought at a shop.

Of course, almost nobody wears a top hat, so many people do not know that.

Regardless, a lady, which the original poster undoubtedly is, would never wear brown tops unless she was the Master, and even then, probably would still choose patent.

Patent tops are also only for those ladies with colors, and most hunts reserve tan tops for gentlemen with colors, though it's not an absolute truth across the board. Wearing top boots with a melton coat would be an absolute no-no, as well, just as wearing white breeches would be.

Bottom line? The only lady who should be wearing tops on her boots is one with colors, and the tops should not be tan. Unless of course, one would like to pass themselves off as an MFH when they are not.

[Jaegermonster]

So now I'm curious, what does the ribbon down on the hunt cap signify?

And thanks to all for the rest of the info. I had the suspicion that the boot tops meant something in a foxhunt but I wasn't sure.

So, if I was considering getting hunt top boots for eventing (and I do think they look nice), if for no other reason I'd look at it practically: someday I'll probably have the oportunity to go foxhunting and I wouldn't want to have to buy a new pair of boots at that time- At $500+ a pair (yeah I need customs) I don't want boots that aren't going to be useable for all activities!

But anyway, personally I wouldn't want to wear something that says 'I'm a member of a hunt' if I wasn't...

RIght now it escapes me exactly, but I want to say the ribbon down denotes "professional" meaning paid staff. Our hunt has a mostly volunteer staff except for the non riding kennelman. I'm sure probably JSwan can clear that up, I don't have time to look it up right now.
The hunt tops don't just denote that you are a member of a hunt, you can only wear them if you have earned your colors. Men wear brown tops, ladies wear patent leather, unless they are a lady huntsman or MFH. I was member for a while before I got my colors with the first hunt, and then when I joined the second hunt I asked permission to wear my coat with the other hunts colors on it (because I only had one black coat, but as soon as I could afford it I got another one) did not wear the tops until I was awarded colors with the second hunt.

[Jaegermonster]

If you were male you would presumably not event in scarlet?


If you were a member of a hunt and awarded colors and therefore entitled to wear a scarlet coat you could event in scarlet if you wanted. Just not with the blue collar and other insignia denoting USET

I am female, but with our hunt only staff wears scarlet, black in the field, and I have shown etc in my scarlet coat, and also in my black coat with the colors on it
I only did the scarlet coat a couple of times, and only because I forgot to get my black coat the cleaners, because the scarlet attracted a lot of attention and questions.
I never mind talking to people about hunting and answering questions but it became really disruptive to my showing :)

correction: with one of the hunts I am with, only staff wears scarlet, the other is more traditional, only men wear scarlet. We have two lady masters that wear black coats, but with brown boot tops.

[Jaegermonster]

Now, if Ajierene or I were claiming to be hunt members or hunt staff, then you'd have a valid grump.





thats exactly what you would be doing by wearing boots with tops, esp if you were female. You would be claiming to be an MFH or huntsman, which is a big deal.

And for whoever assumes that all hunters are some landed aristocracy or some such garbage, most of the hunters I know are as far from that as you can get.
They all work hard for what they have, and many do without lots of things to be able to afford to hunt, and devote the time to it.
And I'm sure I"m probably not the only one that makes payments on my membership either.
So stop ASS U ming.

[Ajierene]

Who knew that eventers had it in them to discuss fashion for 5 pages??

Eventers are mad skilled like that.

Personally, I don't think perceived etiquette has anything to do with someone's personality. If someone wants to judge my personality by what I wear or do not wear, then I really don't need their friendship anyway.

Something else that Jaegermonster brought to mind. As a woman, wearing brown tops at a hunt is much less common, especially in the more traditional hunts. So would I also be representing myself as a man? Would people not assume I am in the hunt because I am a woman? Do more traditional hunts look down at the more liberal hunts that allow women to wear scarlet and brown tops? Which tradition needs to be followed?

EDIT: Jaegermonster - we posted at the same time. I will rephrase a question. Will members of a more traditional hunt be more upset with a woman wearing brown tops at an event show than a man?

[Jaegermonster]

As we have already stated, IF YOU ARE MALE, YOU WOULD BE STATING YOURSELF AS SOMEONE WHO HAD EARNED COLORS (with the exception of very few hunts as someone told you on your thread on the hunting forum) YOU WOULD BE REPRESENTING YOURSELF AS A HUNTSMAN OR MFH IF YOU ARE FEMALE
so that would be doubly offensive


ok saw the rephrase:
I would find that even more offensive because there aren't terribly many lady masters in the us, and the club of lady huntsman is even smaller. COTH did an article a few months ago about it, and I think there were only less than 10 or so in the whole US. They all worked very very hard to get where they are and earn those brown tops in the boys club, if you know what i mean. (one of the hunts I am with has a lady huntsman who is also an MFH)
so you would be representing yourself as a member of a very very small and exclusive club of lady MFH's.

[Ajierene]

As we have already stated, IF YOU ARE MALE, YOU WOULD BE STATING YOURSELF AS SOMEONE WHO HAD EARNED COLORS (with the exception of very few hunts as someone told you on your thread on the hunting forum) YOU WOULD BE REPRESENTING YOURSELF AS A HUNTSMAN OR MFH IF YOU ARE FEMALE
so that would be doubly offensive

So it would be doubly offensive, unless I could be construed as being a member of a hunt that did not do anything to earn colors? In which case, what would it matter if I hunted or not?

[J Swan]

Do I hear violins?

No, I have never stated anything even remotely close to what you posted. And you know that, and now you're just being petulant. Yes, I hear violins. And they're playing just for you.

Unless there is a sport out there who gives you livery for bicycling to the barn, in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways, no, you cannot mimic the honorific bestowed on people you know nothing about. Crying and stamping your feet because nobody thinks you're special is just being bratty. Do you act this way in formation?

And what in the hell is a fox hunt farm. Every word you type is becoming more evidence of the fact that you really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You don't know anything about the history or sport of eventing, you don't know one bit of information about foxhunting, you don't know a hell of a lot about service uniforms, and you haven't shown one bit of manners. And yet you keep coming up with reasons why you're special?

Don't give me the song and dance about cleaning stalls as a child. Big whoop. No - it doesn't count towards being awarded colours. It also doesn't count towards PT, time in grade, or any other aspect of your life.

Since you evidently refuse to learn anything about this sport, or eventing, let me put it to you again. Colors are earned by service in the field, and dedication to the sport.

The only condition in which you could wear them is if you were awarded them by a Masters of Foxhounds. If you did not earn them - you don't wear them. It is as simple as that. You can cry, you can complain, you can stomp your feet and insist that you worked really hard as a child, and that doesn't even enter into it. You're not even eligible because you don't belong to a hunt club. And considering what women have had to go through in the US to even be accept as Staff, much less Masters, your insistence on boots tops is even more insulting. As Jaegermonster posted - there are only a HANDFUL of female Masters in the US. You're that special that you should count among them? Do you know what hell some of those women went through? And how about female huntsmen?

Voila. I guess you could rant some more, or twist my words around. I'll call you on it each time. I've done both sports, I've paid my dues, and I rode my bike to the barn just like you. When I finally joined a hunt club, I worked my ass off for YEARS before I was awarded colors. And I worked my ass off not for that patent leather boot top - but because I'm committed to the sport. And you know what those colors got me? More work. More dedication, more commitment. And eventing is benefiting from that work too.

Now - go ahead. Try and twist that into some sort of attack on your precious childhood memories. The truth is that you simply don't want to put any work into earning anything - you just want the superficial trappings.

It speaks to your lack of ethics and horsemanship. And if I saw you at a show - I'd not hesitate to make people aware of it. It's a form of cheating. It's a lie - get it? And guess what.... people can tell. I can't even believe you're insisting that you're right.

Spend less time worrying about your boots and more time worrying about your riding. Eventing isn't a fashion show - it's a sport. Sports have rules and traditions and history, and it even has customs. Try learning all of that and get back to me. Unless you're also planning on purchasing a team jacket and posing as an Olympian too.





So basically you are saying that because the sweat I put into riding as a child, including biking to the barn and cleaning stalls every day after school to bike back home doesn't mean anything because it wasn't done in a fox hunt farm?

You are saying because I did not fox hunt, I have no horsemanship and am buying my way into the sport, even though the only way I was able to afford my mare was through riding other horses and cleaning stalls? Even though I make sacrifices every day just to keep my horse and continue my education?

You are saying because there was no Pony Club near me, and even if there was there was no way my parents would pay for it - means I am worthless as a horseperson?

You are saying that I think the rules of eventing do not apply to me because I don't follow your fox hunting traditions?

You are saying that because I do not have a spare few thousand dollars (including fees and gas money, etc.) to drop every year just to fox hunt, I am not worth as much as you?

This is the impression I am getting. As I stated before - in a fox hunting venue, I would be respectful of the colors, but I am not in that venue.

[gholem]

I've been running this new kind of club. We all get together every month and trample some baby seals on horseback. Only after many years of successful trampling (those suckers can dodge out of the way like you wouldn't believe! it's hard work!) are members of my club allowed to wear breeches. You wouldn't believe how upset I get every time I go to a show and see all these people wearing UNDESERVED breeches!!! They didn't trample all those seals, they didn't earn it. How dare they disrespect my club so brazenly! I laugh at them behind their backs constantly. Its basically why I go to shows.

[Jaegermonster]

I don't know of any hunts that just around giving away colors. You have to do a great deal of work for them, along with demonstrating an above average knowledge of hunting, the territory you're hunting, horsemanship, and represent the hunt well.
Like I said some hunts will allow you to make a $$ donation to the hunt, but it is not chump change. It's usually several thousand dollars. Some hunts have members who travel a lot or due to job constraints they can't make workdays or whatever, but that is between that member and the MFH's to work that out.
I don't have any $$ so I had to work for my colors LOL

[Equibrit]

SOmebody save us from CIDIOTS!

[poltroon]

Well, I've learned on thing from this thread. I'm even less interested in foxhunting than I was before. Yes, I understand tradition. But for Christ's sake, folks--you're riding a HORSE, not curing cancer, not feeding the homeless or rescuing orphans. Yeesh.

I've never hunted, but I don't think any of the foxhunters are out of line here. JSwan is completely correct here: these particular items mean something and wearing them when you haven't earned them is as much of a lie as if you verbally told someone that you hunt, especially if you do know what they mean.

It's for the same reason that it's OK for a USET member to wear scarlet in any jumper class, but it would be completely inappropriate for me to wear that coat in the same class.

It's for the same reason that it would be wrong - not illegal, but wrong - to put a Trakhenner brand on your QH crossbred.

It's for the same reason it would be inappropriate for me to ride with an American flag on my saddle pad, even though I am an American citizen.

Maybe your trainer doesn't know or doesn't care, but now you do. And I think it's likely that any clinician you ride with will know too. Some of them won't hold their tongues.

It's one thing to make a mistake in ignorance. It's another to make it after you've been told that some people will find it offensive.

Edited to point out: I am also a Californian, and have evented exclusively in California.

[Jaegermonster]

So basically you are saying that because the sweat I put into riding as a child, including biking to the barn and cleaning stalls every day after school to bike back home doesn't mean anything because it wasn't done in a fox hunt farm?

You are saying because I did not fox hunt, I have no horsemanship and am buying my way into the sport, even though the only way I was able to afford my mare was through riding other horses and cleaning stalls? Even though I make sacrifices every day just to keep my horse and continue my education?

You are saying because there was no Pony Club near me, and even if there was there was no way my parents would pay for it - means I am worthless as a horseperson?

You are saying that I think the rules of eventing do not apply to me because I don't follow your fox hunting traditions?

You are saying that because I do not have a spare few thousand dollars (including fees and gas money, etc.) to drop every year just to fox hunt, I am not worth as much as you?

This is the impression I am getting. As I stated before - in a fox hunting venue, I would be respectful of the colors, but I am not in that venue.

Um yeah. I did all those things too for my riding so you aren't special. And then when I started hunting I still had to work hard for a couple of years to earn my colors. And I am still working with the hunt and the hounds because i enjoy it.
If you find that spare thousand dollars floating around let me know. I have a change jar going all the time that is my gas money for hunting.

[Jaegermonster]

Do I hear violins?

No, I have never stated anything even remotely close to what you posted. And you know that, and now you're just being petulant. Yes, I hear violins. And they're playing just for you.

Unless there is a sport out there who gives you livery for bicycling to the barn, in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways, no, you cannot mimic the honorific bestowed on people you know nothing about. Crying and stamping your feet because nobody thinks you're special is just being bratty. Do you act this way in formation?

And what in the hell is a fox hunt farm. Every word you type is becoming more evidence of the fact that you really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You don't know anything about the history or sport of eventing, you don't know one bit of information about foxhunting, you don't know a hell of a lot about service uniforms, and you haven't shown one bit of manners. And yet you keep coming up with reasons why you're special?

Don't give me the song and dance about cleaning stalls as a child. Big whoop. No - it doesn't count towards being awarded colours. It also doesn't count towards PT, time in grade, or any other aspect of your life.

Since you evidently refuse to learn anything about this sport, or eventing, let me put it to you again. Colors are earned by service in the field, and dedication to the sport.

The only condition in which you could wear them is if you were awarded them by a Masters of Foxhounds. If you did not earn them - you don't wear them. It is as simple as that. You can cry, you can complain, you can stomp your feet and insist that you worked really hard as a child, and that doesn't even enter into it. You're not even eligible because you don't belong to a hunt club. And considering what women have had to go through in the US to even be accept as Staff, much less Masters, your insistence on boots tops is even more insulting. As Jaegermonster posted - there are only a HANDFUL of female Masters in the US. You're that special that you should count among them? Do you know what hell some of those women went through? And how about female huntsmen?

Voila. I guess you could rant some more, or twist my words around. I'll call you on it each time. I've done both sports, I've paid my dues, and I rode my bike to the barn just like you. When I finally joined a hunt club, I worked my ass off for YEARS before I was awarded colors. And I worked my ass off not for that patent leather boot top - but because I'm committed to the sport. And you know what those colors got me? More work. More dedication, more commitment. And eventing is benefiting from that work too.

Now - go ahead. Try and twist that into some sort of attack on your precious childhood memories. The truth is that you simply don't want to put any work into earning anything - you just want the superficial trappings.

It speaks to your lack of ethics and horsemanship. And if I saw you at a show - I'd not hesitate to make people aware of it. It's a form of cheating. It's a lie - get it? And guess what.... people can tell. I can't even believe you're insisting that you're right.

Spend less time worrying about your boots and more time worrying about your riding. Eventing isn't a fashion show - it's a sport. Sports have rules and traditions and history, and it even has customs. Try learning all of that and get back to me. Unless you're also planning on purchasing a team jacket and posing as an Olympian too.

I was thinking of how to say all things you posted, and then saw your post and just figured you said it so well, that i would just say YEAH WHAT SHE SAID

[Jaegermonster]

SOmebody save us from CIDIOTS!

What's a CIDIOT?

[poltroon]

What's a CIDIOT?

Usually it's spelled "Citiot".

It means people who move to the country but know nothing about living in the country, and try to bring city standards to the country.

For example, I recall an article that was discussed here a few years ago about a man who had moved to a 10 acre property in Virginia, but was terrified at night because it was so dark and there were all those animal noises. I can't remember whether he sensibly moved away or if he wanted something stupid like lots of lights.

[Alterageous]

I've been running this new kind of club. We all get together every month and trample some baby seals on horseback. Only after many years of successful trampling (those suckers can dodge out of the way like you wouldn't believe! it's hard work!) are members of my club allowed to wear breeches. You wouldn't believe how upset I get every time I go to a show and see all these people wearing UNDESERVED breeches!!! They didn't trample all those seals, they didn't earn it. How dare they disrespect my club so brazenly! I laugh at them behind their backs constantly. Its basically why I go to shows.


Swing and a miss. Please try again soon!

[Ajierene]

Don't give me the song and dance about cleaning stalls as a child. Big whoop. No - it doesn't count towards being awarded colours. It also doesn't count towards PT, time in grade, or any other aspect of your life.

It does count as PT. I mentioned my earlier work with horses to show that just because you are not a member of a hunt does not mean you do not work hard. My point is that while colors mean something at the hunt - the meaning varying with each hunt - that tradition is only hunt specific. More than that, it is specific to each hunt, so to say someone can only wear colors because they 'earn' them is a very loose statement. As mentioned earlier, some people buy them and other just wear them as a matter of course.

Since you evidently refuse to learn anything about this sport, or eventing, let me put it to you again. Colors are earned by service in the field, and dedication to the sport.

Yes, the sport of HUNTING, not the sport of EVENTING.

It speaks to your lack of ethics and horsemanship. And if I saw you at a show - I'd not hesitate to make people aware of it. It's a form of cheating. It's a lie - get it? And guess what.... people can tell. I can't even believe you're insisting that you're right.

Spend less time worrying about your boots and more time worrying about your riding. Eventing isn't a fashion show - it's a sport. Sports have rules and traditions and history, and it even has customs. Try learning all of that and get back to me. Unless you're also planning on purchasing a team jacket and posing as an Olympian too.

I'm not sure what ethics and horsemanship have to do with attire, other than appropriate for safety. I do not see how it is cheating unless I was wearing the boots in the hunt. I do not get graded better because I have the boots on, therefore it is not cheating. Right, eventing is not a fashion show. So why do you care so much about what people wear in it?

I don't know of any hunts that just around giving away colors. You have to do a great deal of work for them, along with demonstrating an above average knowledge of hunting, the territory you're hunting, horsemanship, and represent the hunt well.
Like I said some hunts will allow you to make a $$ donation to the hunt, but it is not chump change. It's usually several thousand dollars. Some hunts have members who travel a lot or due to job constraints they can't make workdays or whatever, but that is between that member and the MFH's to work that out.
I don't have any $$ so I had to work for my colors LOL

So...you don't have to earn your boots through sweat and blood if you are rich and that is OK? Because the person next to this rich person has to work two jobs just to make ends meet, plus volunteer to earn the right to wear the boots, they are both equal because they both wear the boots?

[J Swan]

If someone wants to judge my personality by what I wear or do not wear, then I really don't need their friendship anyway.


But I'd not judge your personality.

I'd find that you lacked character and were dishonest and unethical. And I'd decide that even if I didn't foxhunt. Because I've known, since I was a small child, what colors meant.

I'd have thought the same if I found out you posed as an eventer but didn't event. Or that you were a dressage judge but weren't. Posing as something you're not isn't about your personality or how cute and fun you are - it's about being a liar and being deceitful.

So no - I don't wants friends who are liars and cheats. Do you? If a fellow servicemember showed you all the ribbons he's earned for good conduct, or MSM, NDSM, or other ribbons - and then you found out he didn't really earn them - you'd really think it was a personality quirk?

If so - your moral compass is defective.

Edited to add - I just read your post. For God's sake just shut up. You're sounding like Laine. Whine whine whine, it's all about you.

Get over yourself. Your activity bicycling to the barn, AS A CHILD, does not count towards PT and you know it. None of your statements make any sense - especially the ones about your blood and sweat - and what's this about money? You think I'm sitting here rolling in cash? Do you really and truly know so little about foxhunting?

Jesus - I can't believe I'm reading this crap. Are all eventers like you? No wonder you people are getting killed.

[Alterageous]

Back to the beginning: The attire rules FOR EVENTING are 100% BASED on the attire rules for foxhunting.

The tradition is specific to ENGLISH RIDING, not hunting. If it were specific only to hunting, please tell me why you think we wear ridiculous wool jackets when it's 100 degrees outside, polyester breeches with hot leather patches on them, stiff tall boots that make us walk kind of like ducks, and those infernally hot yet oh-so-attractive hunt caps to show? Or why we wear those same things when it's 15 degrees out despite the fact that our feet are freezing and we'd be much warmer in some nice polarfleece? I'm pretty sure it's not because a group of us just sat down one day and plotted how to best make riding inconvenient and expensive. It's because it's TRADITION, and respect for the traditions of a sport is sort of important to being a participant. If you don't respect it, why do you even do it??

Hey, guess what, life's not fair, some people can buy what others have to earn. Point is, you can't just buy the trappings of it and say "well other people spent all this money to buy this right, so I figured I'd skip the expensive part and just buy the boots! It's the same thing, right?" Sorry. Nope.

[poltroon]

It does count as PT. I mentioned my earlier work with horses to show that just because you are not a member of a hunt does not mean you do not work hard.

Of course not. But just because you've worked hard at something doesn't mean you can have any random honor in any field that suits you.

Debbie McDonald (to pull a name out of the air) works hard and is a fantastic rider and trainer. But she's not entitled to hunt colors. I doubt she has a problem with that.

My point is that while colors mean something at the hunt - the meaning varying with each hunt - that tradition is only hunt specific. More than that, it is specific to each hunt, so to say someone can only wear colors because they 'earn' them is a very loose statement. As mentioned earlier, some people buy them and other just wear them as a matter of course.

No, they don't. You get your colors by being awarded them by a MFH. MFH don't give them to every sunday visitor.

Yes, you might get them with a substantial donation of land, land rights, or money. Even then, they're not for sale; I doubt a MFH would accept a random check from a stranger and put a set of colors in the mail in return. Money is just labor of a different kind.

If you really want to shout to everyone you meet "I'm a poseur who can't be bothered to understand my sport," I suppose the rules don't explicitly prevent it. I suggest a lime green and yellow protective vest, helmet cover, and saddle pad to go with the brown tops. Lime green breeches too. Extra credit for matching pinstripes on your horse's boots.

[Equibrit]

I'm detecting a rather large chip on a shoulder!

Debbie McDonald has earned the previlege of carrying her National colours and patch.
She can wear them in competition. Does that mean we'll be seeing you posers out sporting National colours, or better yet, out hunting with them? Maybe you'd prefer to wear Isabel Werth's gongs?
http://www.phelpsphotos.com/copyrightPhotos/11856.jpg
http://www.eurodressage.com/images/2008/08wcf/werth_4284.jpg

[J Swan]

Yes, I think it's a buffalo chip.

[tangledweb]

If you were a member of a hunt and awarded colors and therefore entitled to wear a scarlet coat you could event in scarlet if you wanted. Just not with the blue collar and other insignia denoting USET

In the US? I thought the USEF jacket rule was "dark color or tweed". Is scarlet a dark color?

[flyingchange]

I think she just wants to argue for the sake of argument. what makes it all so very entertaining is that she almost never knows wtf she is talking about.

[Jaegermonster]

So...you don't have to earn your boots through sweat and blood if you are rich and that is OK? Because the person next to this rich person has to work two jobs just to make ends meet, plus volunteer to earn the right to wear the boots, they are both equal because they both wear the boots?

No I don't necessarily think it's ok, but I am not the Master and I don't run the show. That is for the Master to decide who is awarded colors and who is not, and not for me to question their decision. Decisions are made based upon things to which I am not privy. Some hunts are very wealthy hunts and don't need extra $$ due to the way they are set up, some hunts (like the ones I hunt with) are not and need to do what they need to do to support the kennels.

[J Swan]

Yes, quite entertaining.

I'm kicking myself for spending years wearing plain black boots - I just coulda got me some a dem high falutin boots and one a dem fancy red jackets and been speshul - mebee even gone to the Olimpics with my pony.

I could been a contenda. Really. If only I'd bought those fancy boots.....:rolleyes:

[Jaegermonster]

In the US? I thought the USEF jacket rule was "dark color or tweed". Is scarlet a dark color?

It is my understanding that if you are a member of a hunt it is correct to wear your hunt livery, to include colors if you are so entitled. A scarlet coat is, in many hunts, a part of your colors. I have seen it done (although not often) by people who were entitled and no issue was made of it, but this might be one for Janet the rules maven to hop in on.

[Jaegermonster]

Usually it's spelled "Citiot".

It means people who move to the country but know nothing about living in the country, and try to bring city standards to the country.

For example, I recall an article that was discussed here a few years ago about a man who had moved to a 10 acre property in Virginia, but was terrified at night because it was so dark and there were all those animal noises. I can't remember whether he sensibly moved away or if he wanted something stupid like lots of lights.


oh ok I have heard of citiots before.

[J Swan]

And just to make it even more confusing - scarlet is not necessarily the color worn. In some hunts; it's green or yellow.

"Colors" are the hunts colors - a strip of fabric worn on the collar - the color of which is unique to that hunt. The jacket - traditionally it's scarlet but that is not the only color worn.

And in case anyone is interested in why - there is a why. There is a whole rich history of hunting as well as eventing that has nothing to do with fashion or people rattling their jewelery. But about hunting, hounds, the Revolution, two World Wars.......... but nothing about bicycling to the barn, I'm afraid.

[Jaegermonster]

I think she just wants to argue for the sake of argument. what makes it all so very entertaining is that she almost never knows wtf she is talking about.

I'm sorry were you directing that at me?

[flyingchange]

Yes, quite entertaining.

I'm kicking myself for spending years wearing plain black boots - I just coulda got me some a dem high falutin boots and one a dem fancy red jackets and been speshul - mebee even gone to the Olimpics with my pony.

I could been a contenda. Really. If only I'd bought those fancy boots.....:rolleyes:

LOL

I'm agunna git me sum adim fay-ncy buttons too. With them letters ohnum. mah brayass name plate onh ma saddle's gunna say GIT-ER-DUN!!!!

[Ajierene]

No I don't necessarily think it's ok, but I am not the Master and I don't run the show. That is for the Master to decide who is awarded colors and who is not, and not for me to question their decision. Decisions are made based upon things to which I am not privy. Some hunts are very wealthy hunts and don't need extra $$ due to the way they are set up, some hunts (like the ones I hunt with) are not and need to do what they need to do to support the kennels.

This is where I have the problem, if someone who never worked to earn a dime (old money is the term I use, in that granparents or greatgrandparents earned the money) can but the boots, what makes that OK and not someone wearing them outside of the hunt. Also, someone who earned the money, but wanted the colors for their daughter makes a healthy donation - that daughter did not earn the colors, either through working to get the money or sweat and blood.

I do think in the hunt, the hunt rules should apply, but do not see the correlation to outside the hunt. This is especially true since there is not set way to earn the boots.

So, I guess the question is - would you look down your nose more, less or the same as someone that apparently did not 'earn' the boots, either because they got them on some tourist stop fox hunt or bought them, as someone that bought them and wore them at an event show? And why?

[Ibex]

Ok, so what about non-tan/brown, or non-patent tops? My bootmaker, who outfits at least one hunt, said that coloured tops don't count since they're non-traditional anyways. Was he incorrect?


These aren't mine, but you get the idea:
http://www.jfayora.com/Custom%20Boots/juanayora.html

We're seeing colours like olive, charcoal, plum, burgundy etc. I have tops in dark burgundy (looks black from a distance) because I preferred a contrast over mismatched black. They do look almost black from a distance.

[flyingchange]

I'm sorry were you directing that at me?

no. sorry, it was directed at Ms. Ajirene. sorry ajirene - but you really ought to shut up. you are embarassing me for you.

[Jaegermonster]

I would never look down my nose at anyone, that is not the way I was raised.
But I would notice that someone is misrepresenting themselves, and trying to appear as something they are not.

I know how hard my MFH/huntsman has worked to be respected and well thought of in the hunting community (at least by people who's opinions count) and I also know how hard it is do such things in a boys club. She didn't buy her brown tops. They represent an old and respected tradition, and also represent something personal to her and to all of us who know her.
I would not look down my nose, but I would perhaps feel a bit sad for that person who was displaying their ignorance and lack of respect for tradition.

[subk]

So... I am supposed to be concerned about what people I don't know think of me?
Yes, it's called civility. I don't run around using the N-word. It's just a word and can't really hurt people, right? Nor do I dress like a hooker in the play area of McDonald's. Just because "you don't care what people think" doesn't mean you get a pass on a little basic respect for others who have traditions and sensitivities you might not understand.

I fail to see where fox hunters have been the primary reason eventing is still around today. Eventing came from the military, fox hunting is a leisure sport. Yes, fox hunters do event, but so do dressage riders and hunter/jumpers. Can you elaborate on how eventing would not be here today if it were not for Fox hunters?
I think this idea needs it own thread! http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=160967

[Jaegermonster]

no. sorry, it was directed at Ms. Ajirene. sorry ajirene - but you really ought to shut up. you are embarassing me for you.

oh ok. I thought that was the case but I wanted to check before I sent a "well bless your heart" back at ya!
ps and I agree with you
for someone who doesn't care what others think about what she's wearing she sure is keeping on with beating her drum

[flyingchange]

This is where I have the problem, if someone who never worked to earn a dime (old money is the term I use, in that granparents or greatgrandparents earned the money) can but the boots, what makes that OK and not someone wearing them outside of the hunt. Also, someone who earned the money, but wanted the colors for their daughter makes a healthy donation - that daughter did not earn the colors, either through working to get the money or sweat and blood.

I do think in the hunt, the hunt rules should apply, but do not see the correlation to outside the hunt. This is especially true since there is not set way to earn the boots.

So, I guess the question is - would you look down your nose more, less or the same as someone that apparently did not 'earn' the boots, either because they got them on some tourist stop fox hunt or bought them, as someone that bought them and wore them at an event show? And why?

God, what is WRONG with you????

The big-time donors' donations go to feeding the hounds, improving the kennels, paying the light bill, paying the staff, etc. I have never heard of a parent "buying" their kids colors. That does not happen. You really need to go out and follow a hunt for a season before you open your mouth as you are completely uninformed. Or keep flapping your trap here because really, this is truely entertaining to watch you continue to make a total ass out of yourself.

[Alterageous]

Because you're not buying the boots. You're buying the right to wear the boots.

The boots are a separate purchase. They're not regulated. Anyone can buy them. It's just in poor taste to wear what you didn't earn, be that by money or by work.

The general idea is you must have done SOMETHING in service to the hunt (given them a bunch of money, done a bunch of work) to get them. That's the minimum standard for earning them. That's the set way to earn the boots. Do something for the hunt.

I know at least in my hunt, it is theoretically possible to purchase colors (though incredibly rare, because that's also considered a little gauche), but those are considered "honorary" colors amongst the field and not held in quite as high esteem. In my hunt, the few members who did basically purchase colors (one by buying the land for the kennels and office, one by building the buildings on it) do not have the brass buttons. They have hunt imprint buttons, but they are black like everyone else's. So there is a delineation, at least in my hunt, and they are not "worth" the same. They do not have "full colors" but instead were issued symbolic colors in honor of their financial investment in the hunt.

I don't know of any hunt who gives colors to anyone who hunts with them once. Can someone name this infamous hunt?

[Equibrit]

This is where I have the problem, if someone who never worked to earn a dime (old money is the term I use, in that granparents or greatgrandparents earned the money) can but the boots, what makes that OK and not someone wearing them outside of the hunt. Also, someone who earned the money, but wanted the colors for their daughter makes a healthy donation - that daughter did not earn the colors, either through working to get the money or sweat and blood.

I do think in the hunt, the hunt rules should apply, but do not see the correlation to outside the hunt. This is especially true since there is not set way to earn the boots.

So, I guess the question is - would you look down your nose more, less or the same as someone that apparently did not 'earn' the boots, either because they got them on some tourist stop fox hunt or bought them, as someone that bought them and wore them at an event show? And why?

You have a problem with understanding the basic concept here. Colours (which would include the wearing of tops, ribbons, collars buttons etc) are EARNED and awarded by HM the Master. They may be worn by those who are entitled. Anybody else is a dirty rotten lying bastard! The size of you bank balance is NOT in question.

[J Swan]

I do think in the hunt, the hunt rules should apply, but do not see the correlation to outside the hunt. This is especially true since there is not set way to earn the boots.


Yes there is. You can represent the USA in international competition.

The only other way is to be committed to the sport of foxhunting. How that commitment is made or what it entails is none of your business. People do what they can with what they have. Every effort is appreciated - because we're all working to better the sport for the benefit of all. Landowners who do not hunt are not awarded colors. We show our gratitude and respect in other ways.

You seem to continue to believe, despite everyone attempting to correct you - that colors are some sort of whim and fashion statement, and therefore you are free to emulate it.

It's not a fashion statement, except maybe to you. So you don't appear to be dedicated to the sport of foxhunting, which is fine. It's not for the fainthearted. (neither is eventing but you'll figure that out eventually)

Your other avenue is to represent the USA. So get to it. I'll give you a piece of advice - don't try and claim that bicycling to the barn as a child gives you any benefit.

And if you're smart - you'll shut up and consider that you've got a lot to learn about eventing as well as foxhunting.

[Alterageous]

In the US? I thought the USEF jacket rule was "dark color or tweed". Is scarlet a dark color?

The USET wears scarlet coats with a blue velvet collar and white piping with the USET logo the chest. They are issued by the national team and are the registered national colors with the FEI. They are permitted in FEI classes for those who have been issued them by the governing body for sport, and are a separate thing from the standard USEF rules for attire.

A hunt master would wear a scarlet coat with the collar in his/her hunt's colors. My collar (though not on a scarlet coat) is burgundy and gray, and it's on a navy coat, which is what ladies with colors are permitted to wear in my hunt, as the Masters wear green instead of scarlet.

[Equibrit]

Scarlet with colours for the jumpers.
Black tails with USET badge for dressage.
http://www.phelpsphotos.com/copyrightPhotos/59524.jpg

Colours are also awarded to Eventers who represent the USA.
http://www.e-archives.ky.gov/_govfletcher/www.governor(June2005)/gallery_0632.jpg

These honours are directly drawn from the traditions of Hunting.

[Ajierene]

Yes there is. You can represent the USA in international competition.

If you are stating that you earn the boots only through competing successfully in an international eventing competition or the Olympics, then I can see where not just anyone would wear them in Eventing.

It would have to be something related to Eventing, though, not Hunting.

[Madeline]

To me it is like a non-Olympian wearing the pinque coat (or a very close facsimile) at a Western Show.

Pink. Pink. Pink. Or Scarlet. "Pinque" is an affectation that should only be used by romance novelists...

[Ajierene]

Pink. Pink. Pink. Or Scarlet. "Pinque" is an affectation that should only be used by romance novelists...

Thanks, some people were discussing it in another thread and both spellings were used. Since I had not seen it spelled before, it was a bit difficult to determine the correct spelling.

[Alterageous]

If you are stating that you earn the boots only through competing successfully in an international eventing competition or the Olympics, then I can see where not just anyone would wear them in Eventing.

It would have to be something related to Eventing, though, not Hunting.

If one is awarded a USET coat, then one is considered to have been conferred something of an honorary colors for the "national hunt" if you will and thus is also entitled to wear the other trappings such as hunt top boots if the rider so chooses. The implication being that that rider, as a representative of the nation in equestrian sport, would be gladly invited to step out with the field of any American hunt. They are "honorary colors" such as previously described.

So yes, in eventing, a brown-topped boot is typically worn by a male rider who is currently or has been a national team member, as well as someone who is entitled through hunting with a registered hunt.

The "pinque" affectation emerged sometime in recent memory from a romance novel and is suitably annoying to read. Most hunt members will just say "scarlet."

[tangledweb]

... most hunts reserve tan tops for gentlemen with colors, though it's not an absolute truth across the board. Wearing top boots with a melton coat would be an absolute no-no, as well, just as wearing white breeches would be.

"most"? It is, or at least used to be in the MFHA guidelines. While I don't doubt that it is not universal, it is fairly common. I think the majority of clubs that have written attire guidelines mimic the MFHA guidelines with some local edits.

Here are a few random hunt websites with wording something like "If a gentleman wears a black frock coat or shadbelly, he should wear white breeches and tan- or brown-topped boots, and he may substitute a hunting top hat for his hunt cap (top hat is the only correct headgear with shadbelly). "

http://www.thewoodfordhounds.org/etiquette.htm
http://www.loudounhunt.com/Attire.htm#Formal%20Attire
http://nhh.glencarry.com/attire.htm

[Madeline]

So... I am supposed to be concerned about what people I don't know think of me?

Go right ahead and do what you wish.


As far as rules go - I cannot find any rules stating that only hunt members can wear hunt boots:

Dressage
"Boots—black, brown, field, jodhpur or a black
or brown full grain smooth leather leg piece and matching leather boots. Chaps and/or
half-chaps are not allowed. BOD 1/14/07 Effective 12/1/07" (pg 26)

Cross Country
"Boots—black, brown, field, jodhpur or a black or brown full grain smooth leather leg
piece and matching leather boots. Chaps or half-chaps are not allowed." (pg 27)

Stadium Jumping
"Boots—black, brown, field, jodhpur or a black or brown full grain
smooth leather leg piece and matching leather boots. Chaps or half-chaps are not allowed." (pg 27)



Nor does the rule allow top boots.

[linquest]

It would have to be something related to Eventing, though, not Hunting.

What part of the "eventing attire is based on foxhunting attire" concept do you not understand?
Perhaps a visual with fewer words might be more helpful:

traditional foxhunting attire --> eventing attire after competitions were opened up to civilians --> acceptable present-day standards of eventing attire

[Equibrit]

I was a female staff member and wore scarlet and tan tops when serving as staff and black coat and patent tops when a guest.

[Alterageous]

"most"? It is, or at least used to be in the MFHA guidelines. While I don't doubt that it is not universal, it is fairly common. I think the majority of clubs that have written attire guidelines mimic the MFHA guidelines with some local edits.

Here are a few random hunt websites with wording something like "If a gentleman wears a black frock coat or shadbelly, he should wear white breeches and tan- or brown-topped boots, and he may substitute a hunting top hat for his hunt cap (top hat is the only correct headgear with shadbelly). "

http://www.thewoodfordhounds.org/etiquette.htm
http://www.loudounhunt.com/Attire.htm#Formal%20Attire
http://nhh.glencarry.com/attire.htm

Not all do. For example, Bull Run Hunt in Virginia allows the wearing of top boots for gentlemen wearing a frock coat, with no statement as to whether that person has colors or not:

http://www.foxhunting.freeservers.com/PgsMain/attire.html#formal if you read the chart, you will notice there is no "if entitled" but instead it depends on the coat you wear.

[poltroon]

I think "pinque" is exactly the right word to describe a scarlet jacket being worn by a hunter pleasure rider at an AQHA or other breed show. :D Your mileage may vary.

[Equibrit]

The emphasis in the rules does seem to be placed on the "SMOOTH leather leg piece" which would preclude tops.

[Jaegermonster]

I saw that too and was going to point it out as well

[Alterageous]

Well, they're allowing half chaps now, so I think all bets are off on that front.

I admit I love my patent top boots but I almost never wear them because keeping that patent looking nice sure is hard.

[zagafi]

I've never hunted, but I don't think any of the foxhunters are out of line here. JSwan is completely correct here: these particular items mean something and wearing them when you haven't earned them is as much of a lie as if you verbally told someone that you hunt, especially if you do know what they mean.

It's for the same reason that it's OK for a USET member to wear scarlet in any jumper class, but it would be completely inappropriate for me to wear that coat in the same class.

It's for the same reason that it would be wrong - not illegal, but wrong - to put a Trakhenner brand on your QH crossbred.

It's for the same reason it would be inappropriate for me to ride with an American flag on my saddle pad, even though I am an American citizen.

Maybe your trainer doesn't know or doesn't care, but now you do. And I think it's likely that any clinician you ride with will know too. Some of them won't hold their tongues.

It's one thing to make a mistake in ignorance. It's another to make it after you've been told that some people will find it offensive.

Edited to point out: I am also a Californian, and have evented exclusively in California.

Well, since *I* didn't ask the question, there's no danger of me committing this grievous offense. Like I said, I get tradition. What has me taken aback is the beating of breasts over a *sport*. I just think a little perspective is missing.

And I also noticed that despite being asked, no one has answered HOW those colors are earned. I think it might be easier to understand why folks' panties are in a twist if it were explained. But just to wail "but I earned them" really doesn't provide any insight whatsoever.

But, while there has been uh, earnest conversation on both sides, I can certainly see why foxhunting is seen as elitist.

[Jaegermonster]

And I also noticed that despite being asked, no one has answered HOW those colors are earned. I think it might be easier to understand why folks' panties are in a twist if it were explained. But just to wail "but I earned them" really doesn't provide any insight whatsoever.

But, while there has been uh, earnest conversation on both sides, I can certainly see why foxhunting is seen as elitist.


THe question of how colors are earned is almost impossible to answer is because it varies from hunt to hunt and is at the discretion of the Masters. Each hunt has it's own criteria.

[Equibrit]

SOME ways to earn colours;

Cleaning kennels.
Roading hounds.
Bathing hounds.
Training hounds.
Feeding hounds.
Walking out hounds.
Showing hounds.
(Remembering the names of a kennel full (about 50) of hounds is a skill in itself)
Constructing jumps.
Clearing trails.
Providing hunt breakfasts.
Grooming hunt staff horses.
Training staff horses.
Exercising staff horses.

For several years.

There is a lot of work that needs to be done before the idylic picture is presented to the public!

Doesn't sound too elitist does it?

[Painted Wings]

There is a thread on what it takes from various hunts to earn your colors.


http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=124942&referrerid=85205

and here's another

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=121329&referrerid=85205

Awarding colors is something the masters take very seriously. It is considered a true honor being bestowed.

One of our masters confessed to me once that they had allowed someone to purchase their colors (several thousand dollars). They stated that it had been a mistake and they would never do it again. They do get asked occasionally though. There are many people that would like to have their colors but cannot take the time it takes to hunt enough, learn the territory, clear trails, help with fund raising, hound walking etc.

Another thing to note. It's not just female masters that wear scarlet. Also female staff wear scarlet, honorary and professional depending on the hunt of course.

[clivers]

Just wanted to ask something that someone asked before but it never got answered. Some male eventers at the top of the sport get brown tops when they also get their team coat. Is this not the same as "earning" them in the hunting world, but for the eventing world?

Is the brown for eventers a different colour than the tan for hunters?


I'd like to know the answer to this as well!?

[Mudroom]

Wow, I can't believe the activity this has gotten.

I event. I hunt. I earned my colors about 30 years ago. I am a MFH. All the black boots I own have brown tops and in every event I have ridden in the last 8 years I have done dressage and SJ in brown topped black boots. CCI*'s, AEC's etc. My event horse is also my staff horse.

I am very proud to communicate my hunting involvement to the eventing world and had a XC saddle pad made with the fox hunting symbol on it.

I would not wear my "Pinque" coat in eventing, even if legal, because, IMHO, some might interpret it as similar to the coats of the US team. They earned their coats in eventing and I could only dream of it. I think it is great to see ladies eventing in black coats with their hunt colors.

I know there are people out there with brown topped boots that have not earned their colors and have them as a fashion statement. I don't like it, but I got over it a long time ago.

BTW: I am packing now for Hunters Run Horse Trials. Just another HT heavily supported by volunteers from a hunt, in this case Metamora Hunt. I always see at least one of their MFH's jump judging.

[poltroon]

Well, since *I* didn't ask the question, there's no danger of me committing this grievous offense. Like I said, I get tradition. What has me taken aback is the beating of breasts over a *sport*. I just think a little perspective is missing.

And I also noticed that despite being asked, no one has answered HOW those colors are earned. I think it might be easier to understand why folks' panties are in a twist if it were explained. But just to wail "but I earned them" really doesn't provide any insight whatsoever.

But, while there has been uh, earnest conversation on both sides, I can certainly see why foxhunting is seen as elitist.

They are awarded at the discretion of a Master of Foxhounds based on service to the hunt. You might also ask, "how does one become a Master of Foxhounds?" There is no set criteria, it's true. There are many honors in this world that are like that. ("How does one become USEF Horseman of the Year?") But that does not make the honor meaningless or elitist.

I can see many reasons for calling hunting elitist (as frankly are most horse sports), but the idea that you get an award for being a longtime, contributing member is just not on my top 20 list.

[2ndyrgal]

That I know Mudroom personally. He is the epitome of turn out and ettiquette. If someone that hasn't earned wears brown topped doesn't offend him, then it shouldn't offend the rest of us. And having seen him ride by in the hunt field, I can assure you, he earned his.

[J Swan]

I'm offended by the incredible ignorance and unwillingness to learn displayed by the OP and AJ. I'm also astonished that a person would take pride in such ignorance, even when attempts are made to explain the history of both sports.

And then to whine that they do deserve to be treated special - just because. Then to use every stereotypical ignorant comment they can think of to describe a sport they've never even seen.

Geez - all the shared history, the common roots, the crossover and opportunity's for cross training - we all made that up. The many posts that explain how a person can earn colors - yup - all made up. I must have imagined the years of work and learning and mistakes.

Eventers used to be a pretty good bunch of folks - good sportsmen, good horsemen, and had an all encompassing attitude. It seems absent these days, as does the lack of basic xc riding skills. Seems that it's more important to dress the "part".

If that's what y'all think eventing is about - have at it. Do me a favor and poach the honorifics off another sport.

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

I'm also astonished that a person would take pride in such ignorance, even when attempts are made to explain the history of both sports.



Thank you J Swan, this is what also bothers me the most...the attitude. When did ignorance become something to be proud of? :no: :no:

[J Swan]

It's not elitist. It's a uniform. It's pretty much the same uniform you wear for other english disciplines. The difference is that where other sports get ribbons or trophies - we get nothing. Except, after years of hard work which many others have described - we get a strip of cloth and leather to wear.

It's not beating your breast to explain, and keep explaining, the how and why. Foxhunters did not start this thread. Someone asked - and the answer was not only not accepted - it was ridiculed. The stereotypes about bluebloods and snobs came out - and it is a stereotype. Foxhunters in the US are a motley crew who don't mind getting their hands dirty. They work hard. At work and at the sport - just like eventers. Except that we can't ever take a day off because we have to take care of all those wonderful hounds. You go home at the end of a competition - we stay out in the cold and wet until every hound is accounted for.

In eventing, if you won something you'd get your ribbon or trophy. Most folks like to hang them up, or show them off, particularly if it was a really tough day - the horse was fresh in dressage - or it was a win at a new level.

Consider how it would appear if someone put up that ribbon or trophy for the public to see and admire...... and the person hadn't actually won it.

While Mudroom might be able to get over it - I'd think that person was a liar. I value personal integrity as a character trait - if I found out someone was lying about their credentials or record, yes, I'd be appalled.

And I'd be even more appalled if the person gloated about it.

That is what is disturbing about this thread. The underlying theme is not about hunting - it's about cutting corners - to make one appear to be something they're not - because it has cachet. At the least - it's puerile. At it's worst - it's dishonest. Both are unsportsmanslike.

I hope you get the opportunity to foxhunt.

Well, since *I* didn't ask the question, there's no danger of me committing this grievous offense. Like I said, I get tradition. What has me taken aback is the beating of breasts over a *sport*. I just think a little perspective is missing.

And I also noticed that despite being asked, no one has answered HOW those colors are earned. I think it might be easier to understand why folks' panties are in a twist if it were explained. But just to wail "but I earned them" really doesn't provide any insight whatsoever.

But, while there has been uh, earnest conversation on both sides, I can certainly see why foxhunting is seen as elitist.

[WilfredLeblanc]

Regardless, a lady, which the original poster undoubtedly is, would never wear brown tops unless she was the Master, and even then, probably would still choose patent.

NB, the original poster is male.

The original poster would also like to gently request more attentive reading, because the three or four posts he's made seem to have been conflated with the 20 or so left by Ajirene.

Thanks to all for providing such an interesting exchange of opinions. I had no idea this would prove such an incendiary question.

[ArtilleryHill]

I almost hate to stick a toe in this, but ... the military link to foxhunting is a long, wonderful, and well-understood one--and it just happens to be an area of special interest to me. It's a topic I've devoted a good bit of time to studying.

Just as the cavalry tests that pre-dated eventing were used to train both military men and horses, so foxhunting has been viewed for centuries as an excellent way to train officers and their mounts. In an interview a couple of years ago with Col. John Jago (Ret), the former MFH of the Royal Artillery--a military foxhunt that still rides over the British Army's military training grounds on Salisbury Plain--he explained in great detail the benefits that centuries of military personnel have gotten (and in his view continue to get) from riding to hounds: a knowledge of how to use terrain and the elements to one's advantage, an understanding of how the weather and land can effect your actions, quick-thinking under pressure, and a habit of being observant were among the long list of things he mentioned.

So the military link to hunting is more than just the "rich officers did it because they are rich" reason that was suggested earlier.

As for foxhunters' contributions to eventing, one notable example is that it was a group of foxhunters who developed the Rolex Three-Day Event, and indeed foxhunters are among the people who, through the Kentucky Horse Park Foundation, have helped found and maintain the Kentucky Horse Park. And it is the Duke of Beaufort, the pre-eminent foxhunter, who hosts Badminton's famous event in Britain--his contribution to both sports is hardly to be sniffed at.

[Alterageous]

NB, the original poster is male.

The original poster would also like to gently request more attentive reading, because the three or four posts he's made seem to have been conflated with the 20 or so left by Ajirene.

Thanks to all for providing such an interesting exchange of opinions. I had no idea this would prove such an incendiary question.

I assumed since others before me had said patent tops that you were a lady. Sorry.

[ss3777]

Mudroom rocks the house ;)

PS sorry Claudia, they are a size 8 :)

[Jazzy Lady]

Okay Hunters, what are your thoughts on a trim, but not a top? There is a rider who has beautiful boots. They are black and have a tan trim on them, not a full top. I have no clue if she's hunted or does or what not, but here's a pic of them: http://www.useventing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/TheForkPhotoGalleryCIC3WXCPics_9B66/Sunday137.jpg

[Jaegermonster]

I wouldn't give that a second look. It's obviously just an attempt to coordinate her outfit and not an attempt to present herself as something she is not. Those would never be confused with hunt tops.

[Jazzy Lady]

That's what I figured. I love them though... they are lovely and unique. Certainly an option for those who wish to be a bit different without stepping on the toes of tradition.

[TexasTB]

Here's another question: (sort of goes hand-in-hand with JazzyLady's question)

I've seen boots that had the appearance of a cuff-top, except the leather on the cuff was the same used on the rest of the boot (same leather, same color) i.e. not tan or patent leather. Is this acceptable without violating Hunter tradition? I think it was a very smart look, but wondering what you all think about it?

[Romany]

Okay Hunters, what are your thoughts on a trim, but not a top? There is a rider who has beautiful boots. They are black and have a tan trim on them, not a full top. I have no clue if she's hunted or does or what not, but here's a pic of them: http://www.useventing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/TheForkPhotoGalleryCIC3WXCPics_9B66/Sunday137.jpg


Great boots - I think they're Italian; Brazilian, maybe? - I've seen them online somewhere. Although, to be totally off-topic, it gives me the willies to see someone riding xc with blobby earrings and catchy finger-rings. But that's just me (I see some irony in someone who rides a horse that appears to require efficient brakes, and she's wearing plenty of appropriate safety gear herself, but...).

Wasn't it you, JL, who asked about tan/brown tops for event riders ages back? If they're "allowed" to wear them, either by being hunt members who've gained their colours, or - as I understand now from this thread - by being members of the USET - there are many shades of brown, from chocolate, to mahogany, to tan...depends on the cobbler.

The idea of a tan top came from - I think - older times when men wore boots that came up over their knees, and when they were turned down for comfort the tan innards showed....which does make me ponder slightly about the patent tops for ladies' boots, but maybe that's a discussion for another day. ;)

[Jazzy Lady]

I did, but I know it's "allowed". It was more to see if the Hunters took exception to the team members or former team members who are male and wear the brown tops who earned them a different way that with hunt colours, or whether the "tan" was actually different than the "brown" of an eventer boot.

[WilfredLeblanc]

One thing I think I'll do is look at the websites of the hunts here in California and see what their guidelines are, because the odds are that if I were to encounter hunters at events, they'd be from those hunts. If their guidelines are like Bull Run's, then it doesn't seem to me there would be a problem. On the other hand, if they're from the same camp as the more vociferous opponents of non-hunters wearing hunt tops, it sounds like the least invidious thing to do would be to stick to plain black or brown boots!

Again, I appreciate the enthusiasm of all for this discussion.

I would be interested in any links to makers of boots with decorative contrasts, kind of like those that have been posted here.

[WilfredLeblanc]

Los Altos Hounds doesn't have a link on the MFHA website, but I checked the other three, and they all subscribe to the prevailing principle that hunt tops are for members who've been awarded colors. It's probably safe to assume that some of these people are involved in eventing, and since I might want to be invited to hunt one of these days, I imagine it would behove me to not abrade their sensibilities.

From my point of view, that settles that. Plain boots it is.

[Painted Wings]

Well, I'd say in this area about 5% of the people at events are also foxhunters. I would also say that about 10% or more of our hunt also events. At the last local unrecognized event it was much higher than that.

Foxhunters in general are not snobby at all. In fact I think foxhunters and eventers are the most friendliest and helpful of the horse world. Forgot your girth, no problem, forgot your raincoat, no problem.

I have borrowed everything from a bridle to bit keepers. I have had many things borrowed just the same. They always come back. I don't have to lock my truck or trailer ever.

I can leave my horse tied to the trailer knowing others will watch over him/her. I know that the foxhunters believe in the "no man left behind" rule of thumb.

In foxhunting, the highest order is the hound. That makes you rather humble. The biggest sin is for your horse to step on or worse, kick a hound. I have stopped in the hunt field to help take an injured hound back to the kennels several times The hound is held to the highest order. This makes you humble. The hound has right of way in the hunt field over everyone.

If you think foxhunters are rich and snooty, try cleaning kennels for a week. I've done it and would not hesitate to do it again. I'll bet more foxhunters have done it than not.

Most foxhunters are passionate. Some hunts are more particular about attire than others. It is considered a tribute to the landowners that we turn our horses out properly every day.

I join the ranks that say If you haven't earned your tops, don't wear them.

I saw someone with a colored collar at the AECs last year. I honestly though they were a foxhunter and asked them what hunt they were with. Turned out they were not with a hunt at all and the coat came with a colored collar. That didn't bother me as I know it is somewhat the style these days but for some reason brown or patent topped boots on someone who had not earned them would bother me more. One of our MFHs also whips and also events. She has browned topped boots for hunting but wears plain topped boots for eventing. It would really not be appropriate for her to event in scarlet in deference to the people who have earned their red coats for being on the team. And brown tops would not be appropriate with a black coat.

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

Sounds like it may not be too hard to find a cobbler who could add some trim to your boots, if you take him a picture of that eventer or a trimmed boot you like.

It just sounds inevitable to me that even if CA hunts happen to hand out brown tops like beads at mardi Gras (and I'm not betting this would be true! ;) ) that if you buy brown topped boots, you will for unforseeable reasons suddenly have to move east, and will simultaneously decide you *have* to take up hunting, and you'll spend years walking hounds and cleaning kennels and clearing hunt trails while your beautiful boots sit in the closet while you respectfully work to earn the right to wear them in your new life.

Ultimately a happy ending, of course, but easier to add a stylish trim, and then change the trim to brown after your MFH announces your name in the awarding of colors ceremony. ;)

[WilfredLeblanc]

Well, I'd say in this area about 5% of the people at events are also foxhunters. I would also say that about 10% or more of our hunt also events. At the last local unrecognized event it was much higher than that.

Thanks. That's a helpful estimate.

Foxhunters in general are not snobby at all. In fact I think foxhunters and eventers are the most friendliest and helpful of the horse world. Forgot your girth, no problem, forgot your raincoat, no problem.

This has definitely been my experience. Obviously, I know more eventers than hunters, but my experience is that people around any barn are the most sane, balanced, natural, least-affected people I've ever spent time with. I'd rather be with them than anyone. A woman named Abby Foss, who used to manage Holman Ranch, for instance, evidently used to be MFH for Los Altos, and she was informality and generous-heartedness personified.

In foxhunting, the highest order is the hound. That makes you rather humble.

Well, I think any kind of riding has a way of keeping your ego right-sized. That's one of its great virtues.

If you think foxhunters are rich and snooty. . .

I really don't think that. Again, please don't confuse my posts with those of others.

[Jaegermonster]

To whip this hound back to the pack where it belongs, re the foxhunting/eventing relation:

Becky Holder, who is in Hong Kong at this very moment in her scarlet coat with the blue USET collar, has hunted with Ft Leavenworth since she was a child, was a whipper in for years and years and still hunts with them when she can.
Just a bit of trivia.

[WilfredLeblanc]

Sounds like it may not be too hard to find a cobbler who could add some trim to your boots, if you take him a picture of that eventer or a trimmed boot you like.

I was born in Durham, so I can't help but pay special attention to your advice! I do hope I get back east eventually.

Anyway, what I had in mind was kind of a unified black and tan look for all three phases--black and tan silks, for instance. I ride a chestnut Belgian X TB on whom the most flattering usual color seems to be hunter green, but everybody seems to go the hunter green route with horses this particular shade of chestnut. But I suppose as newbie, sticking to an anonymous look might be best from one angle of vision.

[subk]

Well, I'd say in this area about 5% of the people at events are also foxhunters. I would also say that about 10% or more of our hunt also events. At the last local unrecognized event it was much higher than that.
More importantly at MTPC H.T. I'd guess that as many as 50% of the volunteers are related to one of the two hunts in the area. As eventers we're only as strong as our volunteer base.

[zagafi]

THe question of how colors are earned is almost impossible to answer is because it varies from hunt to hunt and is at the discretion of the Masters. Each hunt has it's own criteria.

Thanks! I honestly do not know squat about foxhunting. Zip, zero, nada. But I would truly hate to think that if I made an honest mistake and wore ribbons pointing the wrong way on my helmet (as example) that I would be considered unethical and dishonest! Yikes!

[zagafi]

SOME ways to earn colours;

Cleaning kennels.
Roading hounds.
Bathing hounds.
Training hounds.
Feeding hounds.
Walking out hounds.
Showing hounds.
(Remembering the names of a kennel full (about 50) of hounds is a skill in itself)
Constructing jumps.
Clearing trails.
Providing hunt breakfasts.
Grooming hunt staff horses.
Training staff horses.
Exercising staff horses.

For several years.

There is a lot of work that needs to be done before the idylic picture is presented to the public!

Doesn't sound too elitist does it?

THANK YOU. No, this doesn't. But the kerfluffle earlier in this thread surely *did*. Again, thanks for taking the time to answer.

[J Swan]

Thanks! I honestly do not know squat about foxhunting. Zip, zero, nada. But I would truly hate to think that if I made an honest mistake and wore ribbons pointing the wrong way on my helmet (as example) that I would be considered unethical and dishonest! Yikes!

I've made many many honest mistakes. I still make them. Honest mistakes are ok, especially when you're new. No one is going to swoon if you forget your hairnet. You'll be welcomed with open arms, you'll be mentored and guided - you'll be set up for success and you'll have a wonderful time.

Heck - just think how much you'll improve on the xc course after following hounds all winter. Piece of cake. And your horse will no doubt love it too.

Good luck.

[zagafi]

I've made many many honest mistakes. I still make them. Honest mistakes are ok, especially when you're new. No one is going to swoon if you forget your hairnet. You'll be welcomed with open arms, you'll be mentored and guided - you'll be set up for success and you'll have a wonderful time.

Heck - just think how much you'll improve on the xc course after following hounds all winter. Piece of cake. And your horse will no doubt love it too.

Good luck.

Heh. My hair is short enough to make a hairnet absolutely superfluous. :D

Thanks for the reply!

[CarrieK]

You know, I truly do understand the basis for the English riding "uniform." I understand the concept of earning one's colors in the hunt. I understand the awarding of the red coat.I understand reasoning on the foxhunters' side of this. I understand this because, although not a hunt club member, I have spent a lot of my time on this BB over at the hunting forum. I have devoured every bit of reading material on foxhunting that I can get my hands on.

I just can’t imagine being at an event and approaching someone to question them about their “right” to wear a piece of clothing that my sport has decided it has proprietary rights to. I can imagine going up to Aijerene and asking what hunt she belongs to. But when she answers “None” I can’t imagine admonishing her for wearing clothing she has no “right” to wear. I can’t imagine, after receiving her reply, going back and mocking or sneering about her to barn mates or even fellow foxhunters.

I mean, really, it just wouldn’t even enter my mind to do anything of the sort, just like I wouldn’t go up to someone in a tack store and question whether they have the right to buy a riding jacket with brass buttons, or admonish someone at a h/j show whose helmet ribbon is the “wrong” way.

It’s not willful ignorance. It’s apathy. I honestly don’t care whether someone outside the group follows the group’s rules. I know this puts me (and Aijerene) in the “you’re embarrassing yourself for me” category, and so many of you seem filled with such deep disgust that I guess we’ll never get invited over. And perhaps when things finally go my way and I try to cap at a hunt, someone may print up this discussion and I’ll find myself disinvited. Bummer for me, indeed. :(

Ahh, I just remembered something. Waaaay back in high school I disregarded peer pressure and was one of the (many) marching band members who bought varsity jackets (with band decals and such), even though at the time I wasn’t a varsity athlete. And you can bet those varsity athletes gave us grief—because, you know, wool jackets with leather sleeves are theirs and theirs alone. So, you see, I’ve been a wannabe poser for decades. Some of us just don’t learn. It must be willful ignorance after all. :cry:

It's a bit like adding the letters "MD" or "DDS" or "DVM" after your name because you like the looks of it, when you haven't invested the time and energy to acquire the knowledge, skills, and certification that those letters represent.
.
Ah, well, here’s the rub! See, you equate being a member of an athletic/social club with being a licensed physician. I don’t.
That is precisely what you would be doing by wearing hunt livery.
Okay. But at least I’m not claiming to be a doctor. ;)
Ahem.
I believe that this affects Ms. A in that she even asked to begin with.
If she truly didn't care, then she would do it without all this argumentative nonsense.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I meant how that would impact her at an event, not here on this forum. People talking, sneering, mocking behind Aijerene’s back (or mine, since apparently it’s me and the argumentative "Ms A" in this nonsense together) at a competition may not bother her at all because, you know, it’s behind her back.

[Jaegermonster]

Well, I never admonished anyone about wearing anything and not belonging to a hunt. That would be even more rude than the person wearing the brown tops that wasn't a hunt member with colors.
I merely asked the young lady what hunt she belonged to because i was excited about a) meeting another hunter and making a friend from another hunt and b) seeing another hunter at a horse show. When she said she wasn't a hunt member and it was just the coat, I said, "Oh, well it's a really pretty coat" (which it was, dark navy with a tan collar and gold piping) and that i had asked because I hunted, and left it at that. It wasn't a big deal and no one was offended.
But it wasn't like I was demanding to know what right she had to be wearing it etc etc that would be beyond rude.
And I most certainly wouldn't go around sneering and jeering behind her back. (don't know what purpose THAT would serve)
People have done that to me for other things, and I know I didn't like it.
And again, it would be beyond rude.

[rivenoak]

Like Jaegermonster, if I saw someone at a HT wearing what appeared to be livery, I'd ask them about it to find out which hunt it was because I'm always looking to meet more foxhunters. Especially in this part of the country.

If it's a fellow hunter, then you get to play, "Oh, do you know so-and-so?" because in many ways it's a small world. And maybe you can make a new friend, plan a hunting trip, etc.

If it's not a fellow hunter, you can still make a new friend, maybe get them interested in hunting, etc.

As a hunt secretary, I get to deal with attire issues all the time and have some gentle ways of suggesting changes. However, I would only broach the subject of a "no-no" with a hunt member/guest, not someone at a HT unless I saw them wearing our hunt's colors.

In that case, if they had not earned the right to wear them, I'd have no problem telling them, gently, that they shouldn't.

[Ajierene]

I believe J Swan was the biggest voice against the wearing of the boots and called me a liar for wearing them. Well, assuming I would be wearing them. J Swan said it is lying and cheating and some others did agree. There was a mention of sneering behind the back, but I haven't found the post yet.

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

Ajierene - Just because J Swan was the most vocal doesn't mean others don't agree :)

I simply cannot understand why anyone would knowingly wear colors or boot tops they had not earned. That would be like walking around in a nun habit when you've never been to a convent!

None of your arguements have made an ounce of real sense against the facts that have been stated multiple times in this thread.

No hunter I've ever met would sneer at someone for making an honest mistake. Politely attempt to educate them? Perhaps. Invite them out hunting? Quite possibly!

You are spouting off nonsense about something you have admitted you do not know much about. As I said before...if your desire is to treat others as you wish to be treated then respecting the traditions of others is an important part of that.

[CarrieK]

However, I would only broach the subject of a "no-no" with a hunt member/guest, not someone at a HT unless I saw them wearing our hunt's colors.

In that case, if they had not earned the right to wear them, I'd have no problem telling them, gently, that they shouldn't.

And I agree with you there: a member of XYZ hunt admonishing someone whose collar indicates they belong to XYZ hunt when they don't belong is understandable and acceptable.

The difference in my opinion on this is that between specific and general. In Rivenoak's scenario, it's specific: a certain hunt's colors on the collar. To me, that would constitute the "lying" that JSwan is talking about, and I can understand the offense taken in those circumstances. In most of the discussion here, it's general: a hunt member is offended that a non-hunt member wears brown-topped boots. To me, that's not lying at all, since there isn't a claim of specific membership. They're just boots (or brass buttons or the ribbon thing) that someone's wearing at an event (or on the trail or wherever).

[WilfredLeblanc]

The difference in my opinion on this is that between specific and general. In Rivenoak's scenario, it's specific: a certain hunt's colors on the collar. To me, that would constitute the "lying" that JSwan is talking about, and I can understand the offense taken in those circumstances. In most of the discussion here, it's general: a hunt member is offended that a non-hunt member wears brown-topped boots. To me, that's not lying at all, since there isn't a claim of specific membership. They're just boots (or brass buttons or the ribbon thing) that someone's wearing at an event (or on the trail or wherever).

This is certainly an appealing tack to take if one wants--as I do--to get some brown-topped boots for purely aesthetic reasons, but I gather that what the opponents are saying is that the implication of wearing them is fairly definite--that you've earned your colors in some hunt, and that earning one's colors represents a high level of accomplishment in any hunt. Who is included in that rarefied circle might be nebulous across the whole spectrum of hunts, but if you're definitely not part of it, you shouldn't appropriate its trappings. It sounds to me like the rules at Bull Run, cited earlier as an example of an outfit where hunt-tops are not tied to earning colors, are probably the exception. Anyway, I appreciate the opponents' reasoning, and I think I can embrace it, but it interests me that there are still hunters popping up here and saying, "Wear 'em. It's no big deal."

[WilfredLeblanc]

Sounds like it may not be too hard to find a cobbler who could add some trim to your boots, if you take him a picture of that eventer or a trimmed boot you like.

It just sounds inevitable to me that even if CA hunts happen to hand out brown tops like beads at mardi Gras (and I'm not betting this would be true! ;) ) that if you buy brown topped boots, you will for unforseeable reasons suddenly have to move east, and will simultaneously decide you *have* to take up hunting, and you'll spend years walking hounds and cleaning kennels and clearing hunt trails while your beautiful boots sit in the closet while you respectfully work to earn the right to wear them in your new life.

Ultimately a happy ending, of course, but easier to add a stylish trim, and then change the trim to brown after your MFH announces your name in the awarding of colors ceremony. ;)

I suppose another way to skin the cat would be to get removable BLACK tops until such a time as I earned my colors in this hypothetical hunt and could go back to wearing the brown tops I'd bought for eventing!;)

[Thomas_1]

I was thinking of investing in some tall boots, and find the brown-topped hunt models far and away the best looking (both for schooling and show), but I am aware that these typically signify membership in a hunt. Would wearing these boots be an egregious display of chutzpah? If you were in the UK then if you were female or not out hunting then most definitely "naff" or "oh dear!"

Brown topped boots are for men only and when in hunting attire.

[J Swan]

I believe J Swan was the biggest voice against the wearing of the boots and called me a liar for wearing them. Well, assuming I would be wearing them. J Swan said it is lying and cheating and some others did agree.

Please refrain from purposefully twisting my words around in an attempt to garner sympathy. I said you're a liar and a cheat because now you KNOW, and you're taking delight in purposefully misleading people. That's not the same as an innocent or ignorant mistake. You go into the hunting forum asking the same question, when you already know the answer and have been treated kindly - at first. Now you come back here and start the same argument all over again. Either you're obtuse, or a troll.

Being ignorant, and making an honest mistake, is NOT what you are talking about. Everyone makes mistakes. Asking if something is appropriate is not the same as willfully, shamelessly, and with intentional disrespect, adopting the honorifics of another sport. And then have the audacity to gloat about it. If you really do think that foxhunting is so godawful, and populated by bluebloods and snobs - why is it so damn important that you mimic them?

While you're at it, go pin a higher rank on your collar - after all, it's cool to be a higher rank and heck, it's only an Article 15 if you get caught according to you. That seems to be your attitude, that you can do whatever you want and rules and consequences simply don't apply to you.

In case you haven't figured it out yet, that's what people are trying to point out. The real issue isn't the boots - it's your attitude and ethics. If you're going to lie - be smart about it and don't announce the fact on the Internet. And if you're going to announce it, deal with the fact that some people think that honesty is the best policy. Especially in a fellow horseman.


For Carrie and Wilfred - you're starting to understand that the notion of "colors" is not quite as cut and dried as some would think. Which is another reason to just go with plain boots - or some of these newfangled fancy dans. Boot tops in some hunts are indeed part of the livery. It's another reason to learn as much as possible about the history of eventing as well as foxhunting... it can help place these arguments into context.

Both sports have a very rich, and shared history. And that history is shared with the military as well. The hunting horn was heard on the battlefields of Europe; a great many modern phrases, "take your own line", Minority/Majority Whip, etc, come from hunting, many of our nations leaders hunted, eventing and even dressage has its roots in the military, and those folks also hunted. Many many eventers foxhunt.

If any of y'all get the opportunity to hunt - do it. The only thing that you really need is a good attitude and a smile.

[Trakehner]

I think it comes down to a simple "feeling" and by the resonses, an emotional issue.

To those of us who earned our colours, buttons and calf-tops...we value these symbols.

When we see these important symbols used to pimp a poseur because they like the look...we see it as an insult.

Is it illegal to wear them? No, of course not.

Is it disrespectful to the people who earned them? Yes, ignorance is no excuse, it's disrespectful.

Even if you're not Jewish, you don't use a Torah for wallpaper...it's disrespectful.

[Romany]

I did, but I know it's "allowed". It was more to see if the Hunters took exception to the team members or former team members who are male and wear the brown tops who earned them a different way that with hunt colours, or whether the "tan" was actually different than the "brown" of an eventer boot.



Ah - sorry for the confusion.

Answer would be no on both counts - no, people who hunt would not take exception to those men who wear brown tops who earned them as team members; and no, the tone of brown isn't particularly important - many different shades available, from light tan to oakbark to darkish browns.

[kcgold]

Jockeys wear brown topped boots all the time, though they are cut a bit lower...some are vinyl, but some are lightweight leather, too.
In Australia, I read that the eventing rules specifically state that one is allowed to wear brown topped boots if desired. I know they have fox hunting there; are the awarding of color rules different or do they not care if the hunt topped boots are worn in other disciplines?

[bosox]

you know better than to lump everyone into a catagory!
Jesus - I can't believe I'm reading this crap. Are all eventers like you? No wonder you people are getting killed.

[Ajierene]

Please refrain from purposefully twisting my words around in an attempt to garner sympathy. I said you're a liar and a cheat because now you KNOW, and you're taking delight in purposefully misleading people. That's not the same as an innocent or ignorant mistake. You go into the hunting forum asking the same question, when you already know the answer and have been treated kindly - at first. Now you come back here and start the same argument all over again. Either you're obtuse, or a troll.

You did not clarify this in previous posts. You stated that by someone wearing the tops you would think less of them, including thinking they are a liar. Thank you for the clarification. If you stated that someone is a liar and a cheat only because they know, could you point out a post you stated this in? I just skimmed over the thread and did not see it.

EDIT: I did find an instance. In your first post you mentioned how is 'spoke volumes about ethics', which I will now infer means you are assuming that the person wearing the boots understands the local hunt's meaning behind the boots.

While you're at it, go pin a higher rank on your collar - after all, it's cool to be a higher rank and heck, it's only an Article 15 if you get caught according to you. That seems to be your attitude, that you can do whatever you want and rules and consequences simply don't apply to you.

You assume I am in the service? I am an officer at that? Or merely in the army, opposed to other services?


kcgold - do you know if non-hunt members wear the brown tops in eventing, or is it just in the rules that one can?

Interesting about the jockeys. Are they considered the same boot or different?

[J Swan]

you know better than to lump everyone into a catagory!


Yes, and some folks should know better than to do the same. Rider education is an issue in all horse sports these days, part of that education includes knowing the history of your own sport. Or at least being interested in learning.

With the extraordinary availability of free and instant information these days, it's simple to learn that eventing, foxhunting, and the military have a shared history. The poster I was referring to was disputing, despite evidence to the contrary, that the sports have a shared history. Actually, she disputed everything. Repeatedly. Disregarding advice, doing things you shouldn't, broadcasting ignorance and defiance publicly.... sound like the actions of ..... dare I say the names? Which is why, eventually, I made the comment I did.

And for Ajierene, I've been quite clear in my writing. I've been direct, forthright, and attempted to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I'm not going to accommodate your laziness; go back and read the thread properly instead of skimming over it. In other words, DO THE WORK YOURSELF.

You have stated that you are a member of the Armed Forces. In another thread you listed the results of a PT test. I concluded that you are actually in the military and not playing at it.

ETA - Since you edited your post - I'll place it into proper context. What the post conveyed was that insisting upon dressing the part when you know better is dishonest.

I'm not taking exception to a person who wears them and doesn't know any better - I'm taking exception to you - because now you do and you're continually making these absurd, rambling diatribes about how you're special and you biked to the barn and we're all snobs and screw us you'll do what you want.

Now that you know, and now that you've been told exactly what they mean, how important they are, what they signify, and how disrespectful it is, and what it means if someone intentionally wears them when they haven't earned them.... guess what.

Your continued insistence IS a reflection of your character.

An innocent or misguided error is NOT the same as an intentional and mean spirited act.

[bosox]

Jswan--I agree that we should know better but this particular poster has a comment for most everything. The writings tend to ramble half facts and also change from time to time. I agree that postings like this make it hard to ignore some what I hope are fads in the eventing world but you've post here a long time and know that most of this group is a good bunch that embrace the foxhunting crowd. (I am actually a newer eventer and foxhunter---so maybe I am a bit biased.)

You know that one eventer is out there teaching these days...it wouldn't be hard to imagine that there is going to be a new crop of rash idea. Let's just hope that it doesn't take root and we have more ramblings going on.

[kcgold]

- do you know if non-hunt members wear the brown tops in eventing, or is it just in the rules that one can?

Interesting about the jockeys. Are they considered the same boot or different?

I have no idea if any Australian eventers actually wear them....but the rules allow them to.
The jockey boots are not the same boot - they are a bit shorter, and a much lighter weight. Sometimes they are shiny like patent leather, sometimes not. They can be topped with all different colors, including brown.

[kcgold]

An innocent or misguided error is NOT the same as an intentional and mean spirited act.

maybe they're not mean-spirited; they just want to look like Kent Desormeaux: ;)

http://horseracing.about.com/od/triplecrown2000/ig/Big-Brown-Photo-Gallery/Big-Brown-and-Kent-Desormeaux.htm

[J Swan]

You're right, of course. I know better and should check these things beforehand.

I know the good old days weren't the good old days.... and I'm not even old enough to have been part of the "good old days". But geez louise. There's a reason those folks stuck like glue and rode like the wind, had a good eye, perfect form..... Many still do - and it simply can't be bought. (not including myself among those that are talented).

kcgold - alas - I do look like that gentleman. Though I wish I had his thighs - I just have the same nose. :lol:



Jswan--I agree that we should know better but this particular poster has a comment for most everything. The writings tend to ramble half facts and also change from time to time. )

You know that one eventer is out there teaching these days...it wouldn't be hard to imagine that there is going to be a new crop of rash idea. Let's just hope that it doesn't take root and we have more ramblings going on.

[gholem]

I think you have to realize it is completely possible for someone (now) to reach the highest levels of all competitive equestrian sports without ever going to/participating in/or probably even talking to somebody that hunts. They want to wear whatever they think looks best - this perhaps "infringes" on your hunt costumes. I'm pretty sure they don't give a damn about posing as a hunter - they just want to look good eventing or doing dressage or riding racehorses.

And then for them to be told that they can't wear this or that because this other group of people who they have nothing to do with considers it theirs, would indeed raise my hackles. Your argument appears to be upon tradition or this being derived from that....which I simply don't think holds any water. To convince me at least, you need a better reason than it used to be this way.

Also, someone mentioned earlier that the reason you wear (not a verbatim quote) "wool coats when its 100 degrees outside and sweat to death and the same thing when its 15 degrees and freeze and would rather be wearing a polar fleece..." is tradition.

Just about every other sport does the equivalent of f- tradition and give me a warm coat/gloves/boots etc... . The insistence on wearing the same old outfit when obviously better ones could be designed just seems silly to me. I don't understand this reverence of tradition that seems especially deeply rooted in fox hunting but in all equestrian sports to some degree. Racing probably the least, most traditions retained there are superficial and generally have no impact on the actual racing.

[Trixie]

I am not quite sure what proper horsemanship has to do with what boots you wear. Please elaborate.

I still fail to see where lack of training is linked to the boots that you wear.

Personally, I don't think perceived etiquette has anything to do with someone's personality. If someone wants to judge my personality by what I wear or do not wear, then I really don't need their friendship anyway.

It reflects upon your knowledge of horse sports. The way that you present yourself reflects upon your training and respect for the sport. If you’re presenting yourself as ignorant, one might well assume that you’re ignorant in other respects as well.

Ditto everything that J Swan said. Really, the audacity and entitlement here is unbelievable.

[BAC]

If you’re presenting yourself as ignorant, one might well assume that you’re ignorant in other respects as well.

Ditto everything that J Swan said. Really, the audacity and entitlement here is unbelievable.

They are ignorant and even more sad they lack the desire to further their knowledge of horse sports in general. Respect for tradition is not a bad thing but more importantly they are showing a lack of respect for those who have earned the right to wear hunt colors, etc.

[WilfredLeblanc]

Really, the audacity and entitlement here is unbelievable.

Touche, but so is the pomposity. I definitely get what JSwan and allied posters are saying, but the ad hominem attacks on Ajeirene are getting to be a very poor reflection of the gentlemanly values one hopes to be able to associate with hunting.

In terms of entitlement, it seems to me the real entitlement issue getting thrown into bold relief here emanates entirely from the hunting camp. Like it or not, you aren't entitled to dictate what participants in other equestrian sports wear, and the more you rant, the less seriously you can expect your sensitivities to be taken.

I'm swinging back towards wanting to get the hunt top boots for the added pleasure of needling you into saying something to me in person that will justify a symmetrical response.

I hate to be a boor, but good heavens, who the hell do you think you are? And what deference could you possibly be entitled to with the example of deportment you're setting?

[Albion]

I do hope the hunting mob will start picketing hunter shows where children show in shadbellies, jods, and pigtails. I think that's a far more egregious taste violation than hunt tops on a pair of boots. :)

I guess I've always thought of colors and buttons as 'the prize' and THAT would be dishonest to wear if you don't deserve. You bet your ass I wear military gear that has been passed down through my family (e.g., my grandfather's officer short coat from WWII) - and no, I don't feel like a 'fraud' because the 'mark,' the patches and insignia, have been removed. I would never, ever wear colors, hunt buttons OR patent boot tops unless I was a member of a hunt & had earned them, but I also wouldn't get my panties into a wad if someone who 'should' know better decided they liked the way a pair of boots looked and wore them. I can understand getting upset if someone was wearing the colors of a hunt they didn't belong to. But boots? Considering the number of nouveau riche idiots - or simply people who DON'T know better - in equestrian sports in general?

The difference between faking an advanced degree or status as a member of the military or police and being a 'member' of a hunt based on your boot tops is that there is a perceived benefit to faking a degree or job status. People can abuse power that doesn't belong to them, or get jobs they aren't qualified for. What benefit do faux hunters get? Getting jobs they shouldn't have? Lording their status as member over poor members of the community? Sneaking into hunt breakfasts?

If someone wants to buy academic regalia in my university's colors and pretend they have an advanced degree while deriving no tangible benefit from it, well, more power to them I guess - the bigger issue is deriving benefit from something you don't have (an education). The regalia is just that ... regalia. Yes, I'm very much looking forward to the day I get bars on my sleeve in addition to a hood :winkgrin:, and like a hunt member, I will have EARNED that regalia! But it's just regalia - and our dress code is older than fox hunting's by a couple of centuries. Our hats look sillier, too. ;)

Again, I wouldn't do it, but it seems to me, an outsider, that wearing colors is the really egregious violation. Boot tops - well, should be easy enough to suss out a faker, no?

[Trixie]

I hate to be a boor, but good heavens, who the hell do you think you are? And what deference could you possibly be entitled to with the example of deportment you're setting?

I would expect that I am, at the very least, capable of stating my viewpoint without resorting to this sort of nonsense:


[edit]


I mean, really, that’s utterly eloquent.

Touche, but so is the pomposity. I definitely get what JSwan and allied posters are saying, but the ad hominem attacks on Ajeirene are getting to be a very poor reflection of the gentlemanly values one hopes to be able to associate with hunting.

I think the responses have been quite clear and are not a poor reflection in the slightest. Foxhunters care greatly for their traditions and are asking that they be respected in equestrian sports. The poster in question has repeatedly been belligerent and disrespectful.

[WilfredLeblanc]

I mean, really, that’s utterly eloquent.

You asked for it, I'm afraid.

[Equibrit]

Tan boot tops are reserved for GENTLEMEN, and on that score I'm afraid you don't qualify

[HORSEBACKRIDER]

I think you have to realize it is completely possible for someone (now) to reach the highest levels of all competitive equestrian sports without ever going to/participating in/or probably even talking to somebody that hunts. They want to wear whatever they think looks best - this perhaps "infringes" on your hunt costumes. I'm pretty sure they don't give a damn about posing as a hunter - they just want to look good eventing or doing dressage or riding racehorses.

And then for them to be told that they can't wear this or that because this other group of people who they have nothing to do with considers it theirs, would indeed raise my hackles. Your argument appears to be upon tradition or this being derived from that....which I simply don't think holds any water. To convince me at least, you need a better reason than it used to be this way.

Just about every other sport does the equivalent of f- tradition and give me a warm coat/gloves/boots etc... . The insistence on wearing the same old outfit when obviously better ones could be designed just seems silly to me. I don't understand this reverence of tradition that seems especially deeply rooted in fox hunting but in all equestrian sports to some degree. Racing probably the least, most traditions retained there are superficial and generally have no impact on the actual racing.



The good news is that people that mock traditions and historic aspects of a sport or the interest of any subculture are almost always the last in and the first out.

They take pride in their ignorance and think they can succeed all on their own.

Perhaps some do, but it is a very small number and as long as they maintain this "in your face" attitude they never become part of the community and, more importantly, they rarely contribute to the future of the sport.

That is the true problem.

[Alterageous]

Ah yes, but it is the mark of true class to hold one's tongue even when someone else is "asking for it."

Nothing annoys someone looking for a response more than not getting any response at all, no?

[magnolia73]

I think you need to follow the rules for eventing for dress, whatever they are. Reason being, I have scribed several times for dressage judges who have had people come in the ring with "non-conforming attire". It then requires a call to the ground jury, discussion and a judgement- do we decide that the shirt is within the rules? Are the half chaps the right material? After all, when hot pink blouse girl wins and another rider thinks her attire was not conforming and she should have been eliminated, things get awkward.

Consulting the rule book- you may wear black or brown field or dress boots. No mention of tops. I'd assume that means it is actually not inaccordance with the rules to wear black and brown boots, regardless of whether you hunt.

In some hunter classes here is an interesting rule:
HU120 Hunt Colors.
In classes restricted to members, subscribers or staff of a Hunt recognized by the Masters
of Foxhounds Association, all riders who wear colors must carry a letter dated within the
current year signifying that they are eligible. This letter must include the name of the Hunt
and the color of the collar and must be signed by the Master or Honorary Secretary of that
Hunt. The show committee must appoint a competent person to check these letters before
riders compete in classes. If a rider holds a current letter but does not have it in his immediate
possession or is entitled to receive one, the show committee may accept a signed statement
to that effect which must be submitted to the Federation.

ETBW, nothing about blue lights, dear.

[Equibrit]

That rule merely provides a way to check eligilibity for the class.

[WilfredLeblanc]

Considering the number of nouveau riche idiots - or simply people who DON'T know better - in equestrian sports in general?

At this point, alas, I'm pretty sure the nouveau riche idiots are the ones taking such histrionic exception to the appropriation of hunt top boots. People of substance have much more perspective.

The difference between faking an advanced degree or status as a member of the military or police and being a 'member' of a hunt based on your boot tops is that there is a perceived benefit to faking a degree or job status. People can abuse power that doesn't belong to them, or get jobs they aren't qualified for. What benefit do faux hunters get? Getting jobs they shouldn't have? Lording their status as member over poor members of the community? Sneaking into hunt breakfasts?

In juxtaposition with the quotation from Lu Xun in your signature block, this discussion is reminding me of what Kissinger famously said about academic politics--that the reason they're so vicious is because so little is at stake.

Again, the comparison of earning boot tops to faking anything with such tangible benefits as an academic degree is quite grandiose, and in fact grossly devaluates the contributions of soldiers, doctors, etc. to society's well-being.

The more I think about it, I don't see how wearing hunt top boots outside the hunt is much different from wearing the accoutrement of any sport outside that sport's particular context--major league baseball caps on people in the subway, etc.

Again, I wouldn't do it, but it seems to me, an outsider, that wearing colors is the really egregious violation. Boot tops - well, should be easy enough to suss out a faker, no?

Ah, but that's just it: only nouveaux riche (or bourgeois) idiots or would be preoccupied with something so mean-spirited and myopic as sussing out fakers. Nobody worth a damn would impose judgments like that on someone he doesn't know from Adam.

[tangledweb]

Consulting the rule book- you may wear black or brown field or dress boots. No mention of tops. I'd assume that means it is actually not inaccordance with the rules to wear black and brown boots, regardless of whether you hunt.

You are cheating a bit there. You have inserted extra ors to make the sentence say what you want it to say. The actual wording is more ambiguous.

"Boots—black, brown, field, jodhpur or a black or brown full grain smooth leather leg piece and matching leather boots."

(from: http://useventing.com/resources/files/docs/2008_usef_rules_for_eventing.pdf )

[Falconfree]

Staying out of the argument but I do want to say that this thread has actually made me even more excited about foxhunting someday (when I have an appropriate horse again, that is). So many interesting traditions! I guess I'll spend the time now to learn about the traditions so I don't make quite as many silly faux pases as I would otherwise. :P

[poltroon]

Wilfred, I don't think anyone was really unhappy with you, but with Ajeirene, who (from my perspective) is going out of her way to offend people, and for no good reason. And I think some people have gotten confused and think that she originated the thread, because she's been tearing at it like a dog with a chew toy.

[poltroon]

You are cheating a bit there. You have inserted extra ors to make the sentence say what you want it to say. The actual wording is more ambiguous.

"Boots—black, brown, field, jodhpur or a black or brown full grain smooth leather leg piece and matching leather boots."

(from: http://useventing.com/resources/files/docs/2008_usef_rules_for_eventing.pdf )

I think it's ambiguous about full boots with tops, but is clearly against a half chap with tops.

Alas, my daughter's bright purple half chaps are right out. She'll be crushed when she realizes. (I must admit, at 7, with a matching purple shirt, she pulls it off brilliantly.)

[J Swan]

No, it says Black, Brown, dress or field etc. Brown were traditionally used for cubbing, and also were part of a cavalryman's uniform.

Jumping Tests - consult the rule book. Hunt dress is appropriate, as is service dress.

It GOES WITHOUT SAYING - that service and hunt dress is worn, if in fact, the competitor hunts or is in the service. If you didn't hunt, or weren't a police officer or member of the armed services...... you don't get to wear the shiny doodads.

QED

Again - in order to understand the rules.... you have to know the history and tradition behind your own sport.

And the rule you mentioned in Hunters is there because - you guessed it - folks were wearing the doodads and didn't earn them.

Eventing may not require rider to carry their permission slip - but it's understood nonetheless. You don't wear the doodads, and you don't wear the team jacket, you just don't get to pretend to be something you're not.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with snobbery. I must wonder why it's so important to want to pretend so badly, and who our new folks are that seem to be more interested in being crass and unsportsmanlike than in learning.

Within hunter circles folks argue about the children in shadbellies, too. It represents the same type of thinking. That being able to AFFORD to buy the trappings of expertise is the same thing as HAVING the expertise.

Doesn't work. And it shows. People can tell.

[HORSEBACKRIDER]

Speaking of colors -- it seems to me that with the last few crass and classless posts, those who profess to see no reason why a hunt's award of colors to a member should be respected and not mocked (hey, it's just like wearing a baseball cap!), have shown their true ones.

The goal now is to needle and prompt responses that are beneath us all.

Silence is most apt.

[WilfredLeblanc]

Ah yes, but it is the mark of true class to hold one's tongue even when someone else is "asking for it."

Nothing annoys someone looking for a response more than not getting any response at all, no?

I would suggest that it is the mark of someone utterly classless a) to solicit empty repartee, and b) to verbalize evaluations of other people's attainment of "class"--a construction that is itself a vacant bourgeois shorthand for a pretty subtle and complex web of values and behaviors that can't possibly be a reasonable yardstick against which to measure all and sundry.

[poltroon]

Besides, if children are going to wear shadbellies, I'm quite certain they should not be black. Who dresses their kids in black?

I'm imagining my daughter, purple half chaps, with a purple shadbelly, on her black pony with his high white stockings. I'm thinking this would be quite, um, STRIKING. The hunter judges would never stop talking about her. :D

[Trixie]

The original question posed was whether or not it's bad form to wear "hunt-top" boots in eventing. The question specifically asked:

Would wearing these boots be an egregious display of chutzpah?

Quite a few foxhunters chimed in that yes, they would be offended as they had worked very hard for their colors and took a great deal of pride in what those colors represent.

Upon being told that it's bad form, in fact, it's outright offensive and disrespectful to many, several posters decided that they didn't really care and were going to do whatever they wished, anyway, and that no one should be offended.

That to me is audacity and entitlement at it's most amazing, ie, an "egregious display of chutzpah."

[magnolia73]

ooo- actually, I added in dress boots as well. It does not specify dress boots. It is a very ambiguous rule.

Probably if you wore tops, no one would say anything. But why cause an issue for yourself? Showing is stressful enough without someone being unclear if your dress should DQ you.

[Moderator 1]

The original question posed was whether or not it's bad form to wear "hunt-top" boots in eventing. The question specifically asked:

Would wearing these boots be an egregious display of chutzpah?

Quite a few foxhunters chimed in that yes, they would be offended as they had worked very hard for their colors and took a great deal of pride in what those colors represent.



Well noted, Trixie.

While there has been some range of opinion re: the specific reactions different people would have to seeing someone wearing colors, boots, etc., they had not earned, there is a universal answer that, yes, these items of attire do hold significance in the intertwined history of horse sports.

Whether or not an individual cares about what their choice of attire may represent--in the historical or present-day context of horse sports or potentially in others' perception of them as a result of those choices--is ultimately their decision.

Those with opposing views have presented their perspectives for 12 pages. The information is there for those interested in the topic. As the commentary has gotten increasingly heated and personal, and we've had to remove a couple of posts, we're closing the thread.

Thanks,
Mod 1