I'm surprised at lack of work ethic (or denial) in some people!-vent!!

[kahjul]

So, I organize a monthly clinic locally and the clinician is tough-as she should be. She is not abusive, doesn't yell or call names (well maybe a bit when you've been with her a while :)), but she does call you to the carpet for faults and isn't real worried about how she gets her point across. She is very high on praise when it is deserved too. I have people who apparently want to trot 20 m circles and have everyone tell them how great they are. The first lessons it's like they come away feeling like it was just a bad day, 1st time at the facility or whatever. These are grown-ups that have been riding forever on broke horses. What I keep seeing is horses who don't go forward and riders who ride solely off their hands. Well, OK, thats why your here taking lessons, to improve. Right??? Well, if the 2nd lesson doesn't go better than the first (and you know it doesn't) then they don't ever come back. WTF!?! Don't they see that they just keep dumping money away and making no progress? It's not just the clinic I organize that they do this at. I see this same group of women go through every new clinician or trainer available. Maybe 3 lessons before they claim ignorance on trainers part and quit coming.
I know I can't change them, but watching their poor horses sometimes actually hurts its so bad. Why can't they see it? Or do they and they really don't want to get down and dirty and do what it takes to improve? Maybe clinics, etc are social time for them, and they want to show off their new pads and shiny horses?
I don't understand!!

[Roan]

They're looking for that "magic" trainer who can turn them in Anky in one lesson.

Seriously.

They want a Dressage Parelli God to sooooothe their wittle feelings and make their horses into champions and themselves into Dressage Queens.

Just wave "buh-bye" 'cause you don't need people like that anyhoodle.

Eileen

[slc2]

The crappy people who never get any better are what keeps the entire horse industry afloat. Painful to watch, but fact is, most people in most sports never get really great. There's only a small percentage that become good at any sport.

[PaddyUK]

Define "good".

Paddy

[Wellspotted]

Maybe in some cases it is a matter of money. Some people can afford an expensive horse, and to ride in clinics, but not necessarily have any real ability, including the ability to improve.
I saw something similar years ago with people who could afford really expensive guitars, and lessons, but who didn't have any real music talent.
There is only so far that money can take you.
Maybe they just don't "get" dressage.

[FriesianX]

They're looking for that "magic" trainer who can turn them in Anky in one lesson.
Eileen


If anyone finds that trainer, could you give me a call? I'd LOVE such a lesson.

Honestly - as much as it can be frustrating, remember that the average rider is an adult ammie who struggles to balance life. Riding is what they get to do in their limited free time with their limited free $, and many are emotionally invested in their horses and riding. If a clinician makes them feel bad, why should they spend their money and free time feeling bad? There are other clinicians that might also help them improve and make them feel better about it. Many have physical limitations too - bad backs, creaky knees, carpal tunnel, tight muscles, whatever comes from being a middle aged "desk-jockey". They will never be international quality riders - but they do enjoy what they are doing.

I'm a rider who handles being "kicked in the butt" well - it actually motivates me - get to the point, tell me what to do to improve, don't just coo "good" to me. But I also know riders who DON'T learn that way - they shut down and get defensive. If someone is "kinder and gentler", they respond much better. Everyone learns differently.

For example - I know of a local rider who is very good - lovely seat, great hands, very talented, but she is also very sensitive (probably why she does well w/ sensitive horses), and needs a clinician who is "sensitive to her sensitivity". Then she excels. And she is truly a GOOD rider.

Many riders are looking for that clinician they can "click" with, that communicates in a way that gives them lightbulbs moments. I understand your frustration, but also see and hear the other side of it. In any learning environment, some people respond well to certain types of teachers, and others don't.

[slc2]

"I don't understand!"

--I don't understand what you don't understand - it seems you have a very, very good grasp of what's going on.

--You don't understand what sort of enjoyment they get out of it?

--YOu don't understand why they don't want to progress?

--Well, they probably think they're doing very well. And clearly, they're enjoying themselves. As a friend of mine said after a disastrous clinic with a sour, angry horse that dumped her, 'Well, at least the pudding at Bill Knapp's was good'.

"Define good".

--Every person draws that line at a different point in the progress of a rider. You're going to define it differently from me. Pony Club has a list of levels and what they feel measures 'competency' at each level - not a lot of other organizations or books have done that (Jane Marshall Dillon, maybe), so I don't think there's a lot of guidelines to follow, so "define good" is just another one of those COH debates just waiting to form.

--I think of 'good' as can comfortably control a horse in the situations they chose to be in without struggling with the horse. I think of 'great' as successful in competition, or entering into a more subtle level of communication and improvement that a judge or expert in that riding form would recognize easily.

"...I have people who apparently want to trot 20 m circles and have everyone tell them how great they are...These are grown-ups that have been riding forever on broke horses. What I keep seeing is horses who don't go forward and riders who ride solely off their hands....I see this same group of women go through every new clinician or trainer available....Maybe 3 lessons before they claim ignorance on trainers part and quit coming.

....Maybe clinics, etc are social time for them, and they want to show off their new pads and shiny horses?"
I don't understand!!

I think you understand very well. You said:

"I can't change them"

"Clinics are social time"

"They want praise"

"Don't go forward"

You understand them very, very well.

I see no lack of understanding.

Many people ride very irregularly and don't get in shape or improve. Some have poor health, limited time, or other demands on their time. Quite a few simply aren't interested in progressing. Usually, they are very comfortable with what they're doing and they don't mind a bit.

As with many things, "Only the entire rest of the world minds"

The key is to become a member of the group that doesn't get that upset about what other people do. People are going to do what they're going to do. You aren't ever going to change them. They are going to do what they are going to do.

[EqTrainer]

Welcome to the world of horses!

[slc2]

It's better to have a chuckle and forget about it than to let it bother you.

[Lambie Boat]

I never tried so hard: spent so much time, money, energy attempting to learn something and remained so bad at as dressage. I don't think I ever really blamed the trainer, coach or clinician OR the horse.....and I never felt like I was even approaching 'average'. But yet I continued on year after year. And the railbirds kept laughing at me and whispering behind my back.

You are hosting clinics. your job is to fill the slots. If the clinician is unhappy with the riders, then you can replace them. Other than that.....mind your own knitting:winkgrin:

[merrygoround]

I never tried so hard: spent so much time, money, energy attempting to learn something and remained so bad at as dressage. I don't think I ever really blamed the trainer, coach or clinician OR the horse.....and I never felt like I was even approaching 'average'. But yet I continued on year after year. And the railbirds kept laughing at me and whispering behind my back.

You are hosting clinics. your job is to fill the slots. If the clinician is unhappy with the riders, then you can replace them. Other than that.....mind your own knitting:winkgrin:

OOF! So from whence cometh your "nom de plume"?

Surely you must have learned Something? ;) ;)

[Lambie Boat]

wishful thinking on my part:yes:

I really need to change that name!

[Lambie Boat]

p.s. I know stuff intellectually. I just can't seem to Do stuff very well:D

[slight]

I'm progressing at my own rate, according to what I can afford.
I also am one who never blames a trainer or the horse, and dearly wish I could ride more hours on more days - but am doing the best I can with my circumstances.
I have progressed - I can name specific goals met and scores attained.
It did take me awhile to get past certain mental blocks.
I still work on correcting faults I've had for years; as the other poster noted, sometimes the head knowledge is difficult to impart to the body!
So I'm not allowed to clinic, lesson or show?

[papony]

The more you know, the more you know how much you don't know......you may be learning much more than you think. You are just now more aware of what you want to fix or what's needed to progress. Don't change your name, keep the faith. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

It took me 32 years to go from training level to grand prix.... and I am still constantly amazed at how much I have yet to learn. Take it one foot fall at a time. Don't forget to enjoy the journey and remember the toughest challenges often yield the sweetest victories.

Winston Churchill was right. "Never, Never, Never, Never Give Up."

[slc2]

I agree with feisomeday. She has a very good point.

I am not really sure everyone is going to progress at a rate observers approve of, or even progress at all. I think she's right - fill the slots.

Alot of these people who maybe aren't moving along or moving along that fast, are very nice people. And they may be progressing, just not as quickly as someone would like.

I know someone who seemed to have a really bad seat and flop all over the place and provoked constant comments about how crappy she rode at shows and clinics. This went on for years. Even her husband ragged on her.

Then one day she got a different horse. She'd been riding a horse with very poor balance, very little ability to come up and use his hind legs properly, despite tons of schooling, professional training for years and years, the horse just couldn't do any better, his conformation and balance just weren't good - a very long heavy neck, very long back, tiny hind quarters, straight hocks - he pulled like a train, and was fighting himself at every step. Her heels were up, shoulders rounded, bouncing all over. We were all sitting around and one girl was dumb enough to comment on it in front of a trainer - the trainer said - 'her horse was a horrible mover, she's a very good rider - you, on the other hand, have no such excuse'....LOL.

The two 'worst' riders I know, who provoke the most commentary ringside, actually were struggling with horses that were very, very difficult to sit on and ride - I don't think the greatest riders in the world could have looked nice on those two horses. They got new horses, and oh - where are all the comments? Hmmm. I had ridden both the horses so I knew what they were up against.

How horrible people are - really. How horrible. To so blithely put people down when they don't understand what's going on.

Sometimes people just can't afford anything else. Despite hysterical backlash here to such comments, there ARE horses that simply - well - make people look like bad riders. Often the horse is doing the best it can too.

I think as riders we are going off the deep end and getting way too self absorbed when someone's whole worth, character, personality, value, is measured by whether someone thinks they're progressing in riding enough. Riding isn't THAT important.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I understand there is a limit, but doesn't correct riding improve a horse? Isn't that the point of dressage?

[slc2]

Certainly 'dressage is about improving' - both horse and rider. That doesn't mean everyone is going to improve the same amount or in the same way, or on the same timetable.

Maybe these 'bad' riders have 'improved' alot.

Many people say it's all rider how the finished picture looks. I say - almost all.

I think most of the basic problems people have - being able to sit the trot, being able to get closer to the saddle, use their core and legs and seat to have a good set of hands - most of the improvement in those areas is the rider's purvey and within his power to fix.

To a point.

Some of these horses are very bad movers - even a very strong professional would only look marginally better on the horse. The horses, alot of them, just have very poor balance, conformation and gaits. No one looks that great on them. I don't expect an amateur to look that great on them. I don't know why anyone WOULD expect that.

People also buy horses they adore and don't want to sell, but they are just very, very inappropriate horses for that individual. They just keep going with the same horse. They may learn alot and pick a more appropriate horse next time, but the picture isn't going to be so pretty in the interim.

I feel very strongly that there's a limit to how well anyone can expect an amateur riding one horse, mostly by himself, with very infrequent lessons, to look. I think a lot of people watching clinics and shows expect way too much of the riders they are watching.

Why expect something a little more realistic? Well, first, because most the riders just aren't that far along - and no - people don't move along according to a set time table. I don't think it really matters how long it takes - as long as they're riding.

And no - I don't really feel an onlooker has a right to judge 'how hard' a person is trying or if they're taking the 'correct' amount of time. I think that's way, way over the top - unless the person blames their horse for everything - then it's an open market, LOL.

I don't really expect the average rider to really balance a horse well, ride their half halts really through, especially when they have a horse that lacks natural balance and is really very hard to ride. That's the type a lot of amateurs have.

Those horses just aren't that easy to make a soft back on (that doesn't come from a rudimentary 'half of a halt' half halt, either). What makes the horse easy to sit on and look elegant on, most people haven't even learned yet.

[cuatx55]

Frankly I am too busy dealing with my own life, horse, and riding to give them a second thought. It used to bother me more when I was JEALOUS....that was the root of this issue with the work ethic. Here I was trying to do everything I could just to do lessons. And now that I have a horse I have trained myself in dressage, that feeling is lessened. It's still there, it's still a struggle to be happy with my arab SOME days. But I love dressage even more, love my horse, getting to more advanced work, and have learned so much. And THAT is what it is all about.

as long as these riders are kind and not creating pain, tension, or harming the horses, I don't think that its our place to judge.
Dressage is an art, and to hold the paintbrush can be enough.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I see this sort of thing all the time. But I also see how much these women love the horses. And at the end of the day it is their money, time, and energy to spend how they want.

[Ajierene]

The two 'worst' riders I know, who provoke the most commentary ringside, actually were struggling with horses that were very, very difficult to sit on and ride - I don't think the greatest riders in the world could have looked nice on those two horses. They got new horses, and oh - where are all the comments? Hmmm. I had ridden both the horses so I knew what they were up against.

I was riding a horse for a lady a while back. Took him to a dressage show for her - much difficulty with many things, including cantering a 20M circle. The show was as much to get him out and about as it was to be 'graded' on the dressage test. What the judge said did surprise me, though. It was a schooling show and the judge was having a few minute conversation with every competitor (which I LOVE). She stated that the horse was ruining my riding abilities. He was similar - bad confirmation, perpetually unbalanced, etc.

The other thing to consider is that some people do not have time to ride as much and some trainers do not understand that. I even see it with my trainer a bit. With her it is not lack of knowledge about time, but about basic skills. It is a very different game if you start riding when you are 10 compared to 30. Some trainers never had a 9-5 job and/or never married, etc. and do not understand how these factors take away from riding time.

It is not that they are bad trainers, some people just do not have as much of an ability to see and understand outside their world and find it difficult to believe someone would be learning dressage and not setting 2 hours minimum every day to ride/work with their horse. A student may not want to clinic with someone that does not understand the above mentioned limitations.

[kahjul]

Some may have missed the point. My point is that I wish these riders would continue to clinic-be it at my clinics or someone elses, or just continue on a lesson program, but they don't. They take a couple, it starts to get tough and they bail. They then do this with the next name in town. The women I'm speaking of all have nice horses, dress the part, etc. Maybe it is a money thing as someone pointed out. Who knows?

[slc2]

I haven't missed your point. If they want to bail, they're going to bail, so what? You can't tell people what to do - you can try, but they aren't going to listen. Maybe they're scared, or physically not able, or maybe hubby doesn't want to pay for clinic.

And maybe 90% of people who do any sport just don't do it very seriously, for one reason or another.

Charles Harris spent 3 yrs at the SRS and said the thing people tried to do more than anything else, was find SOME excuse to get the hell out of there. It's just not for everyone.

So what if people want to not spend the time on it? The fact that we spent more of our time and money on riding isn't all that laudable.

If we added up all the money and time we spent on something as frivolous and pointless and nonproductive-to-community as riding livestock around in circles, i'm sure there's some sort of federal or state statute we'd qualify for violating, or that someone is proposing adding such behavior to the DSM-V. If Lewis Black hasn't already pointed that out, he's probably about to.

[Ibex]

p.s. I know stuff intellectually. I just can't seem to Do stuff very well:D


:lol::lol: You and me BOTH. I can explain it. I can see it in other riders and what needs correcting, and even be a decent set of eyes on the ground. But actually make my body do it... notsomuch... :no:

[Sargentmajor]

Wow, and then you wonder where the term "dressage Queen" comes from? In a perfect world we'd all be Grande Prix level wouldn't we? Sometimes it's about personal best, not how to impress the rest of the divas.

[kahjul]

SLC, I didn't say you missed my point. It was obvious you did get it, there are some others who didn't, and seemed to think I was saying these people shouldn't ride. I wanted to make sure that wasn't the message sent.

[apcohrs]

Depending on the trainer, I may be one of the riders you are describing.

I am not talented, neither is my horse. My goals are limited (to improve) but I am realistic.

I can understand how my rides appear to observers, but I dont really care.

A clinician who provides ZERO positive feedback will not get my money a second time. I do not want to be coddled; I expect criticism and handle it well. If the clinician has an eye in his/her head, it will be obvious that i will never be FEI. If i can detect contempt for that reason, i wont be back.

My old trainer used to spend most of the lesson hollering at me, BUT she also paid me the highest complement: She told me i was the hardest working client she had. My seat improved, slowly but steadily, and she made certain to praise my baby steps.

My favorite clinician was very aware of my limitations (she used to say my lovable goof of a horse was a good match for my goals :) )I'm sure she was aware that her efforts would be more effective with a more talented pair, but she NEVER made me feel that I was wasting her time. She always left me with exercises to improve an aspect of my riding or my horse's movement. Small goals, perhaps, but they gave me a sense of accomplishment when I mastered them.

If my trainer had not praised as well as hollered, if the clinician had not been enthusastic about my improvements, I would not have continued to work with them, even if my riding improved. Why should I? Riding is my hobby, not my job. It should be a positive experience. As my trainer used to holler: "Are You Having Fun Yet!?!?!?!"

[carolprudm]

Some may have missed the point. My point is that I wish these riders would continue to clinic-be it at my clinics or someone elses, or just continue on a lesson program, but they don't. They take a couple, it starts to get tough and they bail. They then do this with the next name in town. The women I'm speaking of all have nice horses, dress the part, etc. Maybe it is a money thing as someone pointed out. Who knows?
Do you know any of them well enough to ask them why?

I used to attend clinics with one trainer every chance I got. And made no progress in the one thing she wanted me to do.

And I WAS trying to the best of my ability

It was simply beyond me and my horse. And she was unwilling to do anything else or try a different approach. Finally (unknown to the organizer) she told me I probably shouldn't continue. Looking back on the series of lessons (18 over a period of about 2 years) I had been ignoring all the snide remarks she had been making.

I'm overweight and overaged, as is my mare. I no longer attend clinics for this reason

[FancyFree]

Some may have missed the point. My point is that I wish these riders would continue to clinic-be it at my clinics or someone elses, or just continue on a lesson program, but they don't. They take a couple, it starts to get tough and they bail. They then do this with the next name in town. The women I'm speaking of all have nice horses, dress the part, etc. Maybe it is a money thing as someone pointed out. Who knows?

At my former barn we had a very well known, very respected trainer come and clinic once a week. She is very tough. She doesn't sugar coat anything. You would come away from a lesson with her exhausted. You definitely got your money's worth. Many of the "ladies who lunch" would get on the list for the weekly ride and then drop out. They had nice, expensive horses but really didn't want to work that hard. Some thought she was too "mean". I was always glad when they dropped out though as I was on stand-by to get a ride with her. I loved the lessons with her. I always came away thinking I got a lot out of it.

Some people like the idea of dressage, but don't actually want to work that hard at it.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

I experienced this recently as well.

I was helping this one woman who has a "4th level horse". When I got on the horse to sort it out, immediately I understood why the rider was having so many problems (I had not seen the horse go before, or seen the woman ride the horse). The rider said she only rode the horse in the double, so of course I put the snaffle on it ;)

The horse was not on the bit. In the slightest! It was jammed up in front badly (made my arms ache and my fingers numb) was so far behind the leg it didnt even care if you smacked it hard with a whip, it didn't turn, bend, go or stop with any kind of respect, balance, or submission. It's hind legs were so far out behind it would trip from lack of balance. I have ridden 3 yr olds who had more training.

So I took them back to square one - walk excercises to get bending, basic transisions to get the horse listening and in front of the leg, and many other very simple, black-and-white things that I expect a 3 yr old to know within a month. I realigned the rider's position, reiterated appliction of the aids, and expectations for reactions from her horse. I was nothign but supportive, optimistic, and kind during this process. She mentioned how much better the horse was to ride, and how much easier it was to ride it!

What do you know, after 2 lessons, she cancelled all future ones, slapped the double back on the horse, and entered it in a 4th level test at a recognized show. It was just too much work, and I guess she didn't want to believe me that the horse needed to be taken all the way back to the beginning.

I just shake my head. Why have a horse and ride dressage if not for the daily training and the education?

[FancyFree]

What do you know, after 2 lessons, she cancelled all future ones, slapped the double back on the horse, and entered it in a 4th level test at a recognized show.

Just curious, how did she do?

[monicabee]

The crappy people who never get any better are what keeps the entire horse industry afloat. Painful to watch, but fact is, most people in most sports never get really great. There's only a small percentage that become good at any sport.


So which percentage are you in?

[ToN Farm]

Despite hysterical backlash here to such comments, there ARE horses that simply - well - make people look like bad riders. Often the horse is doing the best it can too.

I think as riders we are going off the deep end and getting way too self absorbed when someone's whole worth, character, personality, value, is measured by whether someone thinks they're progressing in riding enough. Riding isn't THAT important.
So true. They don't have to be horribly conformed or naughty horses either. Some horses are just plain difficult to ride for an AA. Not only do they make they rider look bad, or worse than they are, but they cause the rider to develop bad riding habits. This is especially true of those that are difficult to get in front of the leg.

I think there is the tendency for some to measure their whole worth, character, value, etc. on how well you do in riding.

When it comes to clinics, I think there are a lot of riders out there they see clinics as a social event where they can ride with a BNT and have fun. If the work gets too hard or the criticism too much, they won't return.

Get this. A couple years ago, I didn't return for the 2nd day of a 3 day clinic because there wasn't enough work or feedback.

[twofatponies]

...
So I took them back to square one - walk excercises to get bending, basic transisions to get the horse listening and in front of the leg, and many other very simple, black-and-white things that I expect a 3 yr old to know within a month. I realigned the rider's position, reiterated appliction of the aids, and expectations for reactions from her horse. I was nothign but supportive, optimistic, and kind during this process. She mentioned how much better the horse was to ride, and how much easier it was to ride it!


I audited a couple of clinics where most of the riders were people I had seen riding for years. These were new clinicians for these riders, and both of them were brilliant (I thought). They took a couple of these advanced dressage riders with expensive "made" horses back to basics, got them to relax their death grip on the reins and stop nagging with the leg. You could see the massive improvement in the movement of the horses and the beauty and flow of horse and rider that developed in just an hour of work. But you know what they said afterwards? "I don't have time for all this basic stuff. I have a show on Saturday, and need to get my changes/half-pass/whatever fixed so I can get a good score. I won't be coming back to this clinic."

There are definitely a lot of people who aspire to dressage but don't want to work on the "boring" bits!! Just human nature, I think! The people who will really go far are the ones who don't mind drilling the boring stuff, working on the details, etc. The rest of us hope to find quick fixes.

[sid]

What probably aggravates you is that the people you are seeing are just not as serious or devoted as you are to the sport. Getting really good at something often means returning to the basics (some might call it mundane) over and over again.

A lot of people just don't have it in the them to understand that to become really good at anything that the "devil is in the details"..they want to move on to achieve more immediate gratification, however short-lived or brief.

I knew a very good instructor/clinician (superb rider as well) who would put some of her students in double bridles before the horse was even confirmed 1st level...just so the student could "feel good" and as if they were "progressing". Kept them coming back for more.

Sad, really.

[slc2]

hey kahjul, i don't get upset, we're just talkin' here. :D

[carovet]

OP, why do you care what other people do with their lives? or are you having trouble keeping the clinic filled?

[Arizona DQ]

I am an overweight, overaged rider who bought a cheap, but senior-citizen "safe" horse. I have no fancy riding clothes or tack.... BUT, I am "doing" dressage" because I enjoy the discipline and the journey. I have no dreams of competing at the higher levels and heck - would not even be good enough to compete in the Senior Olympics. LOL. I do not ride every day nor would my horse want to be worked every day. I am not a great rider, but adequate with my horse.

I work full time, breed, show and judge dogs, so there is not a lot of time to ride and train. But this is my childhood dream and noone can take it from me...

Every step forward makes me so happy. I actually could FEEL my mare round her back under me for the first time last week......

I do not work hard at this hobby, but I enjoy every minute of it. I just spent a week training with a classical dressage trainer and was the whole time on longe line, no stirrups, no reins, but did I ever learn how to sit correctly! I love the basics!

I am sure there are many like me out there.... yes, I go to clinics but would not continue with a clinician who did not help me or at least treat me with respect! Not coddle, but respect!

Thanks for letting me vent...

[exvet]

I was helping this one woman who has a "4th level horse". When I got on the horse to sort it out, immediately I understood why the rider was having so many problems (I had not seen the horse go before, or seen the woman ride the horse). The rider said she only rode the horse in the double, so of course I put the snaffle on it

Just for the record.....and to make it clear since I am in your area and also ride/compete at fourth level that I am NOT the one you're referring to here. :winkgrin:

This issue works in reverse as well. 'Tis the reason I left local BNT after riding with her for four years. I begged and begged for lounge lessons. I got them twice in the four years I was with her. Both times she had her groom give me the lounge lesson 'cause there wasn't enough glory or money in it for her. No, instead she just kept telling me to put the horse in training with her. "THAT" would fix everything. Well it never happened and off I went as soon as I found someone who was willing to make me pay and pray on the lounge. Things starting improving for me tremendously. I still have a long way to go but at least I have someone willing to focus on the boring stuff and call me on the carpet when it's ME and not the horse.

PS. Said fourth level "Horse" goes and competes in both snaffle and double - depends on the focus of the day. Oh and got the flaxen haired brat on the buckle and RELAXED this AM :D

[Austin Rider]

If we added up all the money and time we spent on something as frivolous and pointless and nonproductive-to-community as riding livestock around in circles, i'm sure there's some sort of federal or state statute we'd qualify for violating, or that someone is proposing adding such behavior to the DSM-V. If Lewis Black hasn't already pointed that out, he's probably about to.

I saw Lewis Black Friday night...no mention of dressage yet. He was all worked up about golf, though, and he had me rolling in the aisle. He could sure have some fun with DQs...

[Gucci Cowgirl]

The show is this weekend so I guess we will see!

It's not really important to me, I would have loved to help this horse and rider get on the right track, but if they don't want to work hard, than it isn't worth my time!

[AiryFairy]

They're looking for that "magic" trainer who can turn them in Anky in one lesson.

Anky is not someone anyone should aspire to be like, at least not until she learns to ride a horse properly. The fact that her kind of 'hands only' riding, cranking on the face, behind the bit, flat, no engagement, no collection, no frame, is not only accepted as the norm but rewarded by fawning (and apparently blind) judges, no matter how incorrect it may be, says to me that the up and comings have absolutely no chance of ever riding correctly. It's too hard, and who's going to teach them anyway?

[Gucci Cowgirl]

Until you can pull off as many Olympic, WEG, World Cup, European Championship and Dutch National Championship gold medals, (Not to mention the hundreds of CDI wins) I suggest sharpening up your own riding skills to top hers.

Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?

I don't agree with AVG's training methods per se, but it doesnt mean I am going to rip her apart "in front" of thousands on a BB.

She is a PERSON, not just someone who has controversial training methods.

This is what's wrong with society...everyone is so judgemental and hostile towards people they never even met, just so they can try to show off how much they know more than each other.

She has brought dozens of horses through the levels, is a nice person, is very successful, and the judges mark her according to what they have presented in front of them.

She is obviously doing something right.

[Pommederue]

Anky is not someone anyone should aspire to be like, at least not until she learns to ride a horse properly.

:lol::lol::lol: That's a good one AiryFairy.

[slc2]

I think when the person wrote 'be like anky' she was referring to winning everything on the planet over and over, rather than the evil, vile, pernicious, corrupt, ignorant judges that allowed her to do so, and the abusive, disgusting methods that got her there.:lol:

[AiryFairy]

She is a PERSON, not just someone who has controversial training methods.

She is obviously doing something right.

She's also doing a lot of things wrong. A piaffe with no engagement is incorrect. An extension without extending is incorrect. Being broken behind the poll and behind the bit is incorrect. I challenge you to find even ONE of her horses who does a piaffe properly, compared to say, Balagur, who IMO is the picture of what collection is suppose to be.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

Are you a judge? Then why are you being so judgemental? Who CARES if her horses piaffe properly - nobody is forcing you to train with her, ride her horses, board in her stable, or watch any of her training or competition rides.

If you detest her so much, don't watch her. It's simple.

By your judgement, any one of the judges who have given her a score in the 60's or above at GP bust be blind and inept, right?

That's pretty sad that you think you have a better eye and judgement than the judges who are paid to do this,most of whom have seen and judged every int'l rider and horse in the world.

It's a conspiracy, right? every nation's judges, all hundreds of them, all conspire to fake-score AVG so that she wins everything....

I'm SURE that's exactly what is going on ;)

[Roan]

She's also doing a lot of things wrong. A piaffe with no engagement is incorrect. An extension without extending is incorrect. Being broken behind the poll and behind the bit is incorrect. I challenge you to find even ONE of her horses who does a piaffe properly, compared to say, Balagur, who IMO is the picture of what collection is suppose to be.
Amen.

My Anky reference was supposed to be veiled sarcasm, btw. Guess I veiled it too well :D

Eileen

[Roan]

I think when the person wrote 'be like anky' she was referring to winning everything on the planet over and over, rather than the evil, vile, pernicious, corrupt, ignorant judges that allowed her to do so, and the abusive, disgusting methods that got her there.:lol:

Exact-o-mungo.

Eileen

[AiryFairy]

Amen.

My Anky reference was supposed to be veiled sarcasm, btw. Guess I veiled it too well :D

Eileen

LOL...I wasn't myself - see, what happened is I read it and I rolled my eyes so hard they hit the top of my skull and I blacked out for a minute....:winkgrin:

[slc2]

na...no point in responding at this point...

[Melyni]

Some may have missed the point. My point is that I wish these riders would continue to clinic-be it at my clinics or someone elses, or just continue on a lesson program, but they don't. They take a couple, it starts to get tough and they bail. They then do this with the next name in town. The women I'm speaking of all have nice horses, dress the part, etc. Maybe it is a money thing as someone pointed out. Who knows?

To get this thread back on track, sort of.

Maybe they just don't enjoy the clinics. After all these are not professionals they are amateurs, and amateurs, by definition, do this for a hobby. If the clinic is made too unpleasant then they will bail.

I'm in that boat myself. I do this for a hobby, I work hard, I am ambitious and I want to progress, BUT if the lesson is made too unpleasant, I probably won't return.
I want to learn and I like clinicians who educate me and who can push me to do better, however I dislike sarcasm and negativity, if I detect a bad or snarky attitude on the part of the clinician then, sorry, I am not willing to part with my hard earned money to them and I don't return.

When you get to a certain age you learn that you don't have to take this cr*p, you can vote with your feet if you want to!
Maybe that's what they are doing.

As slc3 said, the amateur is the backbone or grassroots of the sport. And we know that we have choices.
I know a few clinicians who have plenty of good technical knowledge but are not much fun to ride with, I generally avoid them.

I also know certain barns have a very snarky bunch of people riding in them and I am reluctant to participate in clinics they put on for that reason. I don't see the need to take the grief, I can get the education elsewhere without the snark.
Yours
MW

[kansasgal]

I haven't missed your point.

So what if people want to not spend the time on it? The fact that we spent more of our time and money on riding isn't all that laudable.

If we added up all the money and time we spent on something as frivolous and pointless and nonproductive-to-community as riding livestock around in circles, i'm sure there's some sort of federal or state statute we'd qualify for violating, or that someone is proposing adding such behavior to the DSM-V. If Lewis Black hasn't already pointed that out, he's probably about to.


Thanks SLC2! Yes, as much as I love dressage and learning the ART of horsemanship, it is indeed a pretty selfish venture, and at the moment I'm being as selfish with it as I can be with 4 kids and limited time and finances.

Yes, it might be frustrating to the OP to see stuff like that going on. Esp. since she is the clinic organizer. Maybe better though to take that wasted energy of frustration with other dressage riders and take a step back and consider how it could be put to positive use.....

Good luck and best wishes from Kansas.

[Sdhaurmsmom]

I don't have an issue with people who, after riding with a clinician, make the decision that they won't do so again. It's their choice to make and without being inside their brains, hearts, and pocketbooks, (or without asking), we can't know why they decide not to return.

More mysterious, to me, are the riders who ride in a clinic but spend the entire time defending their faulty positions from any change, or blowing off the clinician's suggestions. I truly don't understand why anyone would bother to ride with a clinician and not be prepared to fully try the clinician's methods.

I don't ride with a clinician unless I've audited their work first. If I've audited and they appear to work in a way I can understand, and with methods I can condone, then I would ride with them. And once I step in that arena, I will beat my brains out if necessary, to do every single thing they suggest. They have me at their disposal for that 45 minutes. If I didn't think I could commit to suspending resistance or disbelief for that clinic session I wouldn't go in.

I did organize a clinic once and got several riders who either negotiated or 'explained' to the clinician why they couldn't do this or that during their session. Others who didn't verbalize but instead, went the passive-aggressive route of just blowing the clinician off and doing it their way regardless of instruction. However, this clinician is not known for suffering fools gladly, and there were ugly moments. One person was ordered to leave the arena (one of the passive-aggressive non-compliers).

This particular clinician has a reputation for being difficult; but having been through this experience, I wonder how much of it is just frustration at having to work with people who really didn't come to work, as such. Oh, and not being able to just swallow the frustration without expressing it.

I've seen a percentage of these kind of riders at virtually EVERY clinic I've ever audited. It still astonishes me, although really, it does appear to be human nature at work. That doesn't mean I like it...I grind my teeth and sometimes have to get up and walk away until the next rider starts!:lol:

[Blkarab]

I just rode in a clinic this weekend with a regular clinician. As an adult amateur...I too, have limited funds and time to devote to dressage, but when I'm in a clinic, I'm 100% focused and on-board with what the clinician is trying to teach.

I agree with another poster who said that they audit clinics first. I do that very same thing. If I don't feel like I'm going to gel with the clinician or their teaching methods go against what I feel is best for my riding and my horse, then I'm not going to spend the money and time riding. I had this happen earlier this year with a BNT. Audited the clinic, and although his lecture was great, my eyes started to glaze over during the riding portion. I just couldn't grasp what he was trying to accomplish with the riders and horses. So--he's not someone I would ride with in the future. (good thing too, because his clinic is $$$$$).

I think some people are just not all that interested in doing the "hard" stuff or boring stuff to obtain their riding goals. Is it fun riding 20m circles all the time at the trot and learning to feel with your seat, back and legs? Heck no. Is it important? Yeah. I know a lot of people who just don't have the patience or time to invest, but want to feel like they are getting something accomplished. It's not necessarily bad, just they way they are. I have a more serious approach when it comes to my riding, but a good friend of mine, rides strictly for fun. She will go to a clinic occassionally, but if she's not having fun, then she won't do it again. Just differences in how we want to ride and approach the sport.

[dkcbr]

but she does call you to the carpet for faults and isn't real worried about how she gets her point across.

Perhaps it's at least partly the clinician's fault. One person's "not real worried about how she gets her point across" is another person's "negative attitude."

Perhaps the clinician's delivery could be a bit more nuanced. ?

Or, perhaps she could be more articulate at instructing. ?

I dunno...when something happens with multiple people instead of just one or two, I start questioning if it's entirely their own issue or whether something might be contributing to their dissatisfaction.

[TropicalStorm]

p.s. I know stuff intellectually. I just can't seem to Do stuff very well:D
amen to that! ;) I'm for sure in that same boat :D

I'm an adult amateur as well, and between school, working full time, some (and that's very limited lately :lol:) semblance of a social life, I try to ride about 3 times a week and one lesson a week.
I'll likely never make it to a high level - I'd be thrilled to death with getting out of training level at the moment :P- I don't have the time or money to devote to it, as much as I'd love to do it. I also don't advance as quick as the younger girls who are able to get out there every single day and ride every single day while their parents still foot the bills.
So I go to clinics to learn and get a different opinion. I'm not the most fantastic rider in the clinic, but I'm not the worse either. I would hope that the clinician would have patience with an amateur and treat me with respect. I don't need to be babied, I don't need to be spoken down to, I need to be taught. And taught in a way that I can learn from.

[Whisper]

Sdhaurmsmom,
I have a hearing loss, so sometimes I don't do what the instructor says because I didn't realise they said it! I do let them know up front, but it could be that the "passive-agressive" rider is losing his or her hearing, but doesn't want to admit it or isn't aware it's causing them trouble in that environment.

I tend to need several repetitions before I can catch myself when making a new change, as well. It's not that I don't want to change, but I truly don't feel myself doing it. I've become *much* better at this, but for a while, my poor instructor had to practically chant a mantra at me! Now, usually one or two reminders are enough for me to get the "oh, that's what it feels like when I'm doing x, and this is what it feels like to do y." Sometimes the new position feels really weird or uncomfortable, but I've had to learn that embracing and memorizing that weird feeling until it gets into muscle memory is the only way for it to feel natural. If I get distracted by talking, or feel a little tense, it's much more difficult to be consistant, even with what I already know.

I'm aware that makes me a poor candidate for participating in clinics, but perhaps the people you're discussing have similar difficulties, but aren't as aware of them, rather than deliberately blowing off the instructor or not working hard?

I've had one instructor accuse me of not working hard/being lazy, and outright didn't believe that I was doing my dismounted exercises between rounds. I am very much willing to work hard, even if it hurts, and I *enjoy* longe lessons and focused seat work. All of the rest of my instructors (and several dancing and martial arts teachers) have if anything said I was trying *too* hard, and needed to back off just a smidge when I get muscle fatigue or too tense, so I can do the excercise more correctly.

[Roan]

Whisper,

It's embarrassing, but it's really important that you be upfront with the clinician and tell them of your hearing loss. Invest in a set of walkie-talkies that have VOX and tell the clinician that you need to use these. If they won't do it, don't take the clinic.

I opted out of a couple of clinics I wanted to audit because I was told I was not allowed to video tape or record anything unless I was riding or the person riding was someone from my barn. I was told to "take copious notes" :no: If I had another set of eyes then maybe I could lip read and write at the same time.

The walkie-talkies work pretty good. I'd rather a Siemen's wireless, but the base model is $600. On my Christmas wish list :D

Eileen

[Griffyn]

Gotta say Im your sucky rider in the clinic on a totally "unsuitable" horse- in a clinic somewhere near you! Usually imperfect equipment as well. I came there to learn something, and I did. That theres alot of intense snobs in the sport that are REALLY joykills. Luckily, I laugh (well on the ground afterward) Ill buy you a beer. Im not sorry Im not Anky or whoever- fortunately I dont even know who they are, so I cant feel insulted that Im not them! I came from a different discipline, and everyone says dressage is good for you and your horse- so I thought Id try and except for the sometimes OPPRESSIVE seriousness of it all I enjoy! Scold away for my lack of dedication! I dont WANT to be you. I like to learn. I take my dog to training class- and NO! Im not the next Caesar- either- just want the dog to walk on the leash. Life is too short. I dont even know all your terms- so some of what they tell me goes right over my head. Im having a good time and thanks for bringing a quality person in so I can learn what I can! I need the bumper sticker- Outside rein- other outside rein! My check is as good as the next- and I say take us as we come-some of will improve some of us wont.

[Griffyn]

Have to add-- the "strict teacher" is not the issue- I understand they are full timers trying to bring me up to speed- Ill try to do what they ask. No problem. Its the rest of the people that hang around rolling eyes and feeling superior to an obvious beginner that are the flies in the ointment. I have learned that impressive use of terms, knowledge of expensive equipment and endless discussion of some hair splitting theory is covering up a real lack of horsemanship at times. One reason I love COTH. I used to feel that I must be really ignorant if I didnt KNOW what rollkur was... now I do, and can move on with my life. Its possible I should be the auditor- but my learning style is hands on, so I have a hard time going home and translating that to the saddle. I find it useful to be STOPPED- corrected right then and there- and feeling a change. So I go sometimes, when my desire to learn is greater than my fear of the rail riders. As it happens, Im practically an Olympic level rider too!- but only on Coth and in the stands discussing which gloves are best!

[redpony]

I'm not sure who posted it, but I've kept it in my on line file of CLOTHism's:

"Be so entralled in your own improvement, that you don't have time to criticize anyone else".

[Kathy Johnson]

I guess the question that pops out at me is "why does it bother you?"

Is it hard to fill the spots again if they leave? Do you feel like they are undervaluing a clinician you love? Do you think it reflects on your skills as clinic organizer? Are you upset that it is bringing down a sport you love?

While I do think trainer hopping holds far more people back than it advances, there are a number of perfectly serious riders who are out there looking for the trainer who is just the right fit. They will try a number of trainers before they settle on a system, and will advance at their own pace.

It's not so easy to find a teacher whose teaching style matches the rider's learning style, a teacher who is comfortable with rider's level, a teacher who is qualified and kind, yet tough enough to advance a rider, a teacher who teaches as well as they ride. For me, liking and respecting the trainer personally is more important than the show ring credentials. (I guess I sympathize with the hoppers because I am SO picky about who I ride with).

There are also a number of die-hard trainer hoppers or clinic junkies who attend clinics for their own reasons, whether it is just to say they rode with a certain clinician or to get out of the barn for the day. As long as I've been in horses, this has been a pretty normal part of it.

[Whisper]

Roan, one of my previous instructors had a walkie-talkie set, and it worked really well, but all of the models I've checked out since tend to sound really garbled/distorted! I've gotten used to telling people, especially instructors, about my hearing loss, but I used to be really embarrassed about it. I know that some people start having hearing difficulties as they age, and do have trouble facing up to it for whatever reason. I just was commenting that the "passive-agressive" riders who are "ignoring" the instructors might just not be able to hear/comprehend. Even after telling instructors that I have a hearing loss, I've had a couple accuse me of not listening/paying attention. :sigh: I could not work with the assistant instructor at one barn at all, because she was so quiet I couldn't hear a word she said unless she was right next to me, and she couldn't bring herself to "yell."

[Roan]

Roan, one of my previous instructors had a walkie-talkie set, and it worked really well, but all of the models I've checked out since tend to sound really garbled/distorted! I've gotten used to telling people, especially instructors, about my hearing loss, but I used to be really embarrassed about it. I know that some people start having hearing difficulties as they age, and do have trouble facing up to it for whatever reason. I just was commenting that the "passive-agressive" riders who are "ignoring" the instructors might just not be able to hear/comprehend. Even after telling instructors that I have a hearing loss, I've had a couple accuse me of not listening/paying attention. :sigh: I could not work with the assistant instructor at one barn at all, because she was so quiet I couldn't hear a word she said unless she was right next to me, and she couldn't bring herself to "yell."
Nod, Whisper -- just wanted to make sure :D

I've always had a hearing loss, but it's getting worse as I age. And, of course, when you are riding people are usually too far away to lip read :rolleyes:

I'm thinking of attending a seat clinic this fall ($$$ dependent) and this clinician is used to hearing impaired riders. Should go well so long as I am riding and not auditing. The BO is the one I mentioned that won't allow anyone to tape or record unless they are riding/with the person riding.

Eileen

[Wellspotted]

I don't think I'd want to clinic with a "tough" clinician. I ride because I love to ride. I want to do it well, I want to improve, but if I'm paying to ride in a clinic I want to enjoy what I've paid for. I want to work, yes, that is part of the enjoyment, but I would not enjoy being made to feel I must ride to someone else's standards, not even those of the person hosting the clinic.
If there were a ride available, and I paid for it, I would want to get MY money's worth.

I don't ride to compete, I don't have a six-figure WB or TBx or Friesian(x); I just want to ride as well as I can. I like clinics where I know the BO, preferably the clinician, and several of the other riders/auditors. I also like to meet new people and horses and watch their rides. I want it to be enjoyable, and the clinics I have been to are one of the few environments where I do not feel excessively shy or self-conscious riding with an audience. I feel we are all in there learning together, we have all paid for the privilege and the experience, and we all want it to be a good experience. Would I like to clinic with a BNT? Sure, if he/she weren't tough with me. Remember, BN or not, I'm the one paying. It's my ride, my horse, my money. If clinician takes my money I expect him/her to work with me. I will be plenty tough/hard on myself, will try, try, try.

But tough does not equal pleasure, in my checkbook.