no respect for whip

[springer]

I an attempting to start work with my 3 yr old Azteca gelding. He is very laid back, and also somewhat spoiled. When trying to lunge him in the round pen, he just roots around and gets distracted and couldn't care less if I point the whip at him to get him moving. Has no fear of it! What on earth do you do to get a horse like this moving forward??? I have little experience starting horses, but I thought I was at least capable of starting him in a round pen! Any advice is appreciated!

[TouchstoneAcres]

One, get a partner. Walk the horse on the lunge and give a treat. Walk farther away from him and treat. Jog and treat, etc. Slowly work your way up to lungeing a circle. Walk is fine. Partner can at the same time hold a lunge whip for association purposes. Partner can be outside the lunge circle to unstick and guide. The horse may learn what you want and willingly do it. They needn't run from a whip.

I also had the youngster's dam ride around a filly while I lunged her. That helped.

Long reining may be easier for some horses and your partner can "unstick" the horse and give treats.

Once the horse knows what you want, perfect the snap sound of the lunge whip rather than touching the horse. If the horse gets used to it, tap the legs or croup in rhythm--just an aid not a "hit."

Ther is always the plastic bag on the lunge whip or something noisy and sttention getting as a last resort.

Or, a horse can be started and taught to lunge later.

Don't be rigid in your approach--some require you think outside the box. When the light bulb moment comes, you'll be happy you didn't get upset or too "loud" with your aids in the beginning. They really don't understand at first. TBs will likely run off from a whip in the round pen but other breeds don't get excited at all.

[springer]

thank you Touchstone! You probably have an especially good understanding of this iberian breed (he is 3/4 andalusian) as I noticed you are a lipizzanner person. They seem to be especially late bloomers. I'll try some of your suggestions!

[slc2]

Sorry to be blunt, but get help from a trainer who can be there and guide you. The horse is just going to get more and more spoiled. It's nice to be nice but you also have to get your point across. The use of the whip has to be geared toward the horse's reaction - pointing it at him probably wouldn't do a thing for 99% of youngsters. my friend's horse took the whip in his mouth and pulled it out of her hands when she did that. My own feeling is that horses should never be taught to react to a pop or crack of the whip or to its sound or a motion toward them - otherwise you'll be out of control at the first show where everyone is longeing and cracking whips or people are even just walking around behind him or motioning with their arms! teach the horse to react to the touch of the whip (it needn't be a rough smack, just a touch) so that he isn't reacting every time he hears someone else use a whip.

[BaroquePony]

I actually got so tired of out of control Dressage Queens letting their horses run into my space in the warm up at shows, I taught my horse to work at the crack of the whip with every stride. He could always hear it over the dull roar of everything else going on and all of the other poorly trained horses spooked away from us.

:yes:

[springer]

Sorry to be blunt, but get help from a trainer who can be there and guide you. The horse is just going to get more and more spoiled. It's nice to be nice but you also have to get your point across. The use of the whip has to be geared toward the horse's reaction - pointing it at him probably wouldn't do a thing for 99% of youngsters. my friend's horse took the whip in his mouth and pulled it out of her hands when she did that. My own feeling is that horses should never be taught to react to a pop or crack of the whip or to its sound or a motion toward them - otherwise you'll be out of control at the first show where everyone is longeing and cracking whips or people are even just walking around behind him or motioning with their arms! teach the horse to react to the touch of the whip (it needn't be a rough smack, just a touch) so that he isn't reacting every time he hears someone else use a whip.

Easier said than done. Other than cowboys and Parelli-ites, there ARE no trainers in NW Montana. I have the tape series from Jennie Loriston-Clarke which is very helpful, but the horses in her Vol. I tape seem to lunge naturally!

[Tilly]

I agree with everyone else: find a trainer! Or an experienced friend who has worked with young horses before. And, as far as the disrespect for the whip, tap him with it, not hard, really more of a brush along his butt to encourage him to go forward. I know it sounds horrible, but he's being a snot and one light smack/brush with the whip won't hurt him. He's obviously ignoring you, and so he needs a 'hey, pay attention to me!' :)

[goeslikestink]

as you have little or no experince then dont teach him as thus will learn lots of bad habits and mistakes and they do that anyways-- dont need to casue more of them

so find a dressage trianer-- which should be listed with usa web site
or an eventer one, you want one with a proven background not any one wishy washy that just trains this or that

you want a decent trianer for a decent horse-- put your money where your mouth is and invest in a good trianer, go see them 1st ie have a scout about or ask on here
tell them where you are etc
then go see them trian and see if you like them and can get on with them as once the horse is done they then should do you with the horse in question

so go and see a few then decide-- do not attempt to do him yourself as this will do more harm than good as you have already found out the horse is taking the p out of you in the round pen as you havent got a clue what to do or how to correct the horse

hence why i say dressage ttrianer as they can also teach you how to long rein and how to lunge so you cna have a bit of homework with your neddy

[TouchstoneAcres]

As for using the snap sound of a whip---I see some posters think they know more than SRS riders on this topic. God bless their hearts. I also see that many haven't trained baroques and think they must be spoiled if they don't run from a whip. DO NOT hire a trainer like that or you will regret it. You have a baroque breed and you know what I mean

[Roan]

As for using the snap sound of a whip---I see some posters think they know more than SRS riders on this topic. God bless their hearts. I also see that many haven't trained baroques and think they must be spoiled if they don't run from a whip. DO NOT hire a trainer like that or you will regret it. You have a baroque breed and you know what I mean

Preach on, Sister Beavis!

People, baroques are bred for FIGHT, not FLIGHT. They require a lot of tact, respect and understanding. You don't respect them and they will not respect you. Especially the mares.

Same methods I use, Kathleen, although not as refined as yours, I'm sure, since you have a ton more experience.

Eileen

[EqTrainer]

So.. how exactly DO you get them move off the whip? Does the whip have to be outfitted differently for baroque horses? Why exactly would any horse think being expected to move off the whip was an invitation to fight regardless of its breed?

.

And what is an Azteca anyway? Isn't it a QH cross?

[springer]

To Touchstone and Roan- that would explain why Rio got p%&ssed off when I tried to crack the whip at him. Not responsive, just mad! I think I insulted his intelligence :)
The other posters also don't seem to understand that I do not have ACSESS to any dressage or even 3 day trainers close by. I live in the sticks of Montana and cannot afford to be carting this boy off to Spokane WA for training. (3 hours) So I have to do the best I can by getting myself educated. Believe me, I am hyper-aware of the fact that I can easily screw this horse up. I have owned and cared for horses for around 14 years but have not started any babies. That is why I am being so careful to do the right thing by him, with the resources I 've got. Thanks for your input, and any other suggestions are very welcome!!!!!!

[springer]

An Azteca horse is an andalusian crossed with another breed, usually a quarter horse. Rio is an Azteca A, meaning his sire is an Andalusian (Malibu, from Miraval Andalusians), and his dam is an Azteca C, sired by Osado. It takes 3 generations of breeding to get to an Azteca A. I always just tell people he's 3/4 andalusian, it's easier than the explanation!

[EqTrainer]

Well, I am not trying to be harsh but LOTS of horses take offense to a whip being cracked at them. Or waved at them. Or prayed over in their presence. This is NOT a breed thing, it's a horse thing.

But now I think I know why so many of the baroque horses I have ridden are clueless about the aids :lol:

Seriously now. Walk up to your horse and tap him on the rear end with the whip. When you do it, say WALK ON, in your big girl voice. Thats why we have whips, to help explain what we want the horse to do. It's not abuse to use it. If he doesn't go, tap him harder. If he's that smart based on his breeding alone he'll get it the first time, no? :lol: If he doesn't go that time, do it harder. Rinse and repeat as necessary until you get the desired response. AS SOON AS HE WALKS FORWARD tell him what a genius he is! and stop with the whip.

It's about being clear and having good timing, not what breed you are training. I bet Thomas Ritter would tell you the exact same thing.

[JackSprats Mom]

It's about being clear and having good timing, not what breed you are training. I bet Thomas Ritter would tell you the exact same thing. AMEN

While I agree certain breeds have characteristics basic training is basic training.

that would explain why Rio got p%&ssed off when I tried to crack the whip at him. Not responsive, just mad! That has NOTHING to do with breed, thats disrespect and not knowing whats being asked of him.

If you start with him disrespecting you in the round pen, trust me it will only get worse as he gets older and you try to back him.

[Tamara in TN]

I have the tape series from Jennie Loriston-Clarke which is very helpful, but the horses in her Vol. I tape seem to lunge naturally!

oh I love her stuff!

[Sithly]

What EqTrainer said.

If you want him to respect the whip, you must make it clear that the whip will bite. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with a little good, healthy fear in a horse. :D

[tlw]

Cheer up Springer, at least you're living in one of the best places on earth! Hard to beat Missoula (except maybe in the dead of winter).

[sid]

Sounds to me like you need to get rid of your "somewhat spoiled" problems (which means redefining your relationship and your horse's responsiveness to you on the ground in your daily interaction) before he will be able to understand and willingly respond to what you are asking of him now that you've started serious "work".

"Babies" that are laid back and easy (oversensitized), can sometimes be the most trying when you start them initially because you've change the venue and they are clueless through no fault of their own.

Unless you have established really good responsiveness to you on the ground in your day-to-day relationship/handling --moving away, left, right, forward and back to a light touch -- with no barginess and complete willingness to do what you've asked the FIRST time, you've got your work cut out for you (grin). But it's doable once you change your own thinking.

If your horse is bargy and insenstive on the ground in your daily interaction, you need to change that FIRST. The rest will follow.

[merrygoround]

Listen to Eqtrainer.

Whyever would a horse go forward from a whip merely pointing at them? Or cracking at
them? The whip is long. Learn to use it.

Go out and practice using it on fence posts and tree stumps, use it on your kids, dogs and husband!! :lol:When you can place the lash exactly where you want it, then go, and use it below the hock or on the hocks if necessary. And send him forward!!

This is NOT cruelty. This is common sense training. :yes:

[springer]

Well, today went quite well in the round pen thanks simply to a plastic bag tied to the end of the lunge whip. (thanks touchstone) A whole different horse! He practically lunged himself. In fact he DID lunge himself, as I started him without the lunge line. He understands WHOA and WALK ON, still working on TROT. When he got annoyed and tried to change direction I blocked him. So all in all I think he will be ok. He did barge out of the pen when I opened the gate however. I think he will be wearing a stud chain when we go out tomorrow! (you nailed his personality sid) I'm grateful to all of you for your advice! Just wish some of you were here in Montana!

[lstevenson]

While I agree certain breeds have characteristics basic training is basic training.

That has NOTHING to do with breed, thats disrespect and not knowing whats being asked of him.

If you start with him disrespecting you in the round pen, trust me it will only get worse as he gets older and you try to back him.


I agree with JackSprats Mom and Eqtrainer. While every good trainer treats every horse as an individual, basic training is basic training for every breed.

The whip is an aid that, just like the voice aids or the leg aids, the horse needs to learn what the correct response is. Don't be afraid to tap him with it (as strongly as necessary) to teach him what that response is.

Remember that horses interact with humans the only way they know how, which is the way they react to other horses in the herd. If this horse's herd leader came up to him and told him to move, he wouldn't just get mad. He would move, because he respects the herd leader.

[EqTrainer]

OP: Why on earth would you scare him w/a plastic bag on the end of it rather than teaching him what it is?

Or.. are you planning to do only halter/in-hand showing?

Because.. imagine your fate now, when you are mounted and a plastic bag blows by :eek:

[springer]

Because he didn't pay attention to the whip without it. He wasn't scared at all of it. He wasn't traumatized! NOTHING spooks this horse. All he did was pay a bit more attention.

[EqTrainer]

Did you actually TOUCH him with it.. as in, whack!

[JB]

What EqTrainer said.

If you want him to respect the whip, you must make it clear that the whip will bite. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with a little good, healthy fear in a horse. :D

What ET said too ;) I have one of those horses who really wants me to PROVE to him that I mean it. He doesn't assume I mean it. He doesn't assume the alpha mare in his little herd means it, which is why she ends up with teeth on his hiney every now and then. Then, for a while, when she looks, he moves in a HURRY. But then he thinks "does she REALLY mean it still?" and he ends up with teeth on his butt again. He repeats his patterns - does she REALLY mean it? Oh, damn, you DO!" and then we're good for a while.

However, it's not about fear. It's about respect. It's about finding the motivating aid that each horse wants to try to avoid the next time. For some of these colder/warmer blooded breeds, that motivation can be a scary thing for us to get to if we've never been there before. You DO feel like you're going to hurt the horse, or that he'll be afraid of you, or that HE will try to kill YOU. You certainly don't have to jump immediately to a wollop on the butt, because he might just see that as insanely unfair and retaliate. You DO have to work up the intensity until you understand *that* horse's levels. You can't assume he will, or won't, understand the motivation as you've delivered it. Work up, give him a chance to pay attention to the first 2-3 aids (when training a response), but then by golly the 3rd or 4th attempt at a response had better be worth it, otherwise you get into nagging.

[springer]

Did you actually TOUCH him with it.. as in, whack!

No, just made noise with it. Touched the ground behind him kind of

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by EQTrainer:

Did you actually TOUCH him with it.. as in, whack!

:lol:

[BaroquePony]

Just how "spoiled" is this horse?

Occassioannly horses that haven't learned any ground manners can be a bit tricky until you develop some basic handling practices that are consistent and safe.

That needs to be established before you start playing with "the whip".

The whip is a great aid and has many, many meanings when you begin to learn how to use it properly and with good judgement.

[EqTrainer]

Uncle!

[slc2]

agree with jacksprat's mom and eqtrainer.

give up, EQT. the bag has arrived.

[Roan]

springer,

Suggest a copy of Podhajsky's Complete Book of Horsemanship, where he covers starting a horse on the longe. Strangely enough, what he says is pretty much what Kathleen (TouchstoneAcres) wrote -- *GASP! horror!*

Now that he's moving off the bag (hey, whatever works to get his attention), introduce the whip so that he gets the idea of what you want, then phase out the bag.

Ignore the nay-sayers here that have obviously not dealt with this type of mind and go with your gut instinct. He's not "spoiled", he just does not understand what you are asking and if you push the issue, he WILL fight back. You don't want that. You want obedience and submission because he WANTS to obey, not because you forced him to do something he did not understand. He needs to understand what you are asking.

Once he understands the whip, you can start using taps et al for aids while on the longe.

One thing to remember with baroques: Pick your battles!

Eileen

[BaroquePony]

The lounge whip was designed to be used in a certain way, for a number of reasons and it has been used that way SUCCESSFULLY for centuries by many, many horseman in many different countries throughout the world.

It basically has a six foot handle and a six foot lash with a popper on the end of it.

I do not use the longe whip for longing the horse UNTIL the horse has been introduced to it "in hand" and up close. I show it to my horse first and then I begin rubbing him with it. I flip the lash over their back gently and run it down their back. I flip it under their tummy. I rub them with the butt end of the handle. I scratch their back with the handle. I scratch their withers with the handle. I flip the lash gently around their legs and over their back to brush off flies. Generally I rub the horse all over with the whip.

I do this almost every day with any young horse (or untrained old horse) I intend to start lounging. I continue to do it off and on throughout the career of any horse I have. It is great for swishing flies off of any horse that is being lounged.

I teach them to LIKE the whip first.

RESPECT and FEAR are two different things. I do NOT want my horses to fear me, or at least not in the sense of their being "mortified" or so afraid that they cannot relax in less than half of a minute.

You cannot train a horse that is actually afraid of you to work with you.

Once you get your horse accustomed to the whip being around, then you can actually begin to teach the horse to longe or work in the round pen freely.

You need to learn how to crack the whip and you need to learn how to do it using both hands. You should be able to snap it in the air and you should be able to snap the popper end ON something, like your horse's behind. It stings.

You can practice snapping ON something by sticking post-it notes all over the backside of your barn and go out and snap them off the wall.

Once you have learned to USE the longe whip then you can begin to teach your horse how to respond to it.

You can tap your horse with it and say walk. You can do this "in hand" using your lead rope and halter. You can hold him still at a halt with your lead rope and halter. You can carry the lounge whip in the other hand and bring it behind you, behind your back, and tap him with it on his side or hind leg and say walk at the same time, and then walk him forward using your lead line.

That is how to do it if you want to face forward as you teach him to walk forward on the verbal command of walk as well as the tap of the whip.

You can do the same thing to teach him to trot on command. You will have to run along side of him.

You can also face his side and hold your lead line in the other hand and hold the whip as you would if you were actaull going to longe him. Same idea. Say walk and tap at the same time and lead him into the walk. Walk along with him.

Once you get this horse comfortable with the whip and a few verbal commands, you can transfer it over to the round pen or the longe line.

Now, you have your horse at a distance from you and getting him to respond is going to be different since you cannot lead him forward with halter and lead as you did before.

You can tap him, but you also can crack the whip and he will hear it. I only use the tapping on young horses in the beginning. I go the the cracking of the whip as soon as I can because I do not want to step into the "circle" when I am longing the horse. I want the horse to stay out on the cirlce and continue to go at the gait that I have asked for.

So, give your voice command (walk, trot, whatever) and tap or crack the whip at the same time.

If he doesn't respond to the crack of the whip in the air, then you can snap it on his behind. It will sting, but not that much. He needs to learn to respect it and you.

You can purchase "The USPC (United States Pony Club) Guide to Longeing and Ground Training" on Amazon.com. I would highly recommend it.

Tieng a plastic bag to the end of the longe whip to "frighten" him into going forward is not going to help you train him to walk, trot and canter on command easily. It defeats the entire purpose of learning to use the longe whip correctly.

Edited to add: and be sure to praise your horse the minute you get the reponse you are asking for. I don't even think about it anymore, I just do it automatically.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by Roan:

One thing to remember with baroques: Pick your battles!

This is true of any horse with any type of intelligence bred into it.

If you learn to use some of the methods for schooling horses that have been around for centuries, you should not have many "battles".

[TouchstoneAcres]

I agree with Susan that you need ground work first--leading and turning to establish respect. Stop the barging. I don't start lungeing right away. I am not against tapping with the whip after the horse knows what I want in the first place. My TBs seem to lunge naturally by pointing a whip at them and just moving it towards them, but the Lipizzans in general don't. Once they know what's expected they will lunge. They make you think of alternate approaches which some people can't handle--they keep up the same thing louder/harder with no result. You are teaching remember, not bullying. I am not talking about a spoiled horse who knows what you want and won't do it. A youngster first lungeing is not in that category.

[Tilly]

Oh please.:rolleyes: A spoiled horse is a spoiled horse. You can't use his breed as an excuse.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by TouchstoneAcres:

I am not talking about a spoiled horse who knows what you want and won't do it. A youngster first lungeing is not in that category.

Actually, a youngster CAN be in that category if all of his previous handling was based on not understanding how to train a horse.

Through misunderstanding, confusion, and a lack of consistency or knowledge of what works and why it works on the part of the handler, a young horse can become very confused, irritated and even angry.

[EqTrainer]

This is hysterical, I have snorted coffee all over my screen.

Baroque Pony, you are missing the main point :lol: The horse is SPECIAL and SO SMART BY BREEDING ALONE that he cannot be taught to longe like a normal horse.

He requires a BAG, again, based on breeding, for him to grasp the concept of moving forward when asked to.

So Roan.. does Podhajsky actually say to put a bag on the end of a longe whip? What page does he say this on? This is interesting because he neatly describes in "The Complete Training of Horse and Rider" how to use it - and he more than once mentions tapping the horse with it, and he also mentions flat out popping the horse with it if it kicks out at the whip. Nowhere does he say anything about putting a bag on it. But perhaps he does in a different book?

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by EQTrainer:

This is hysterical, I have snorted coffee all over my screen.

Easy there peanut, I was trying to be nice.

Now you have me snorting coffee all over my keyboard :lol:

[merrygoround]

I'm going into the keyboard cleaning business. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[grayarabpony]

Agree with EqTrainer, Baroque Pony and whoever else said to use a longe whip like a longe whip. Heck, my horse is really smart and didn't respect the longe whip at first either. He got whacked and now he does.

[sid]

This horse obviously isn't taking his handler/trainer seriously. Breed doesn't matter when it comes down to that.

OP, time to ask yourself "what is it in ME that is causing this horse to react the way it is" (in your case, it is to NOT react)? If he's "spoiled", what are you doing to change that? How are you contributing to that?

If you are overly permissive when handling him routinely and he doesn't treat you respectfully and seriously consistently, you can't exactly expect him to suddenly change his way of thinking on a lunge or in any other situation that may arise. They just don't think that way.

You have to get this horse to understand that you are serious and that you are consistently serious in a skilled, tactful and fair way...whenever you deal with him. You know, a large part of being successful in raising/dealing with/training horses is not only employing the training aids coupled with correct timing, but being consistent. If they get mixed messages, they become confused which eventually translates to dullness or beligerence (neither of which are particulary pleasing to train).

[EqTrainer]

Where is CTanner? If she is not peeing herself reading this thread, maybe she can tell us if Nuno employed The Bag.

[nhwr]

A whip, be it a lunge whip, dressage whip or a bat, is an extension of the person on the other end of it and is used to re-enforce their aids.

If the horse (no matter the breed) has no respect for the whip, it really has no respect for the person using the whip. Unless you address that problem, as soon as the horse becomes desensitized to the plastic bag, which won't take long if your horse is smart, you will be back at square 1.

[Chloesmom]

First of all, congrats on getting your horse to move! Second, there is NOTHING wrong with using a plastic bag as a tool. You need to use the amount of pressure it takes to get the action you want, and if the whip alone isn't getting the concept through, then you need to find something that WILL elicite a response. Now that he understands what you want, you should be able to get him to respond to just the whip. It is important to remember to always start with the least amount of pressure and then steadily increase that pressure until you get the response you want.

I would also suggest sacking your horse out with a plastic bag as you don't want him to be afraid of it.

As far as getting help from "cowboy" trainers, I see nothing wrong with getting SOME help from them. They may not be able to help you with dressage concepts, but for basic things like getting help to move your horse off a lunge whip they might be quite helpful. A lot of dressage trainers are getting help from cowboys these days.

I also wanted to draw your attention to Kalispell MT. Rebecca Farms is currently hosting The Event, which is a USEA World Cup Event. They are only 3 hours from you. I'm sure they have excellent trainers and they bring in clinicians on a regular basis.

You don't need olympic level trainers to get your foot in the door; surely Missoula has some decent dressage trainers who can get you started in the right direction. Kalispell is much smaller than Missoula and we have a lot of dressage activity going on here. The sticks? Not hardly, not unless you think you can only learn from the best of the best.

[springer]

Eq Trainer, I wasn't trying to start a war here. There are many different opinions in the horsey world. You guys don't have to go attacking each other over it.

[BaroquePony]

I would also suggest sacking your horse out with a plastic bag as you don't want him to be afraid of it.

If you desensitize your horse to the plastic bag by sacking him out with it, then it won't scare him when you tie it to the end of the lounge whip.

Just a thought.

[springer]

First of all, congrats on getting your horse to move! Second, there is NOTHING wrong with using a plastic bag as a tool. You need to use the amount of pressure it takes to get the action you want, and if the whip alone isn't getting the concept through, then you need to find something that WILL elicite a response. Now that he understands what you want, you should be able to get him to respond to just the whip. It is important to remember to always start with the least amount of pressure and then steadily increase that pressure until you get the response you want.

I would also suggest sacking your horse out with a plastic bag as you don't want him to be afraid of it.

As far as getting help from "cowboy" trainers, I see nothing wrong with getting SOME help from them. They may not be able to help you with dressage concepts, but for basic things like getting help to move your horse off a lunge whip they might be quite helpful. A lot of dressage trainers are getting help from cowboys these days.

I also wanted to draw your attention to Kalispell MT. Rebecca Farms is currently hosting The Event, which is a USEA World Cup Event. They are only 3 hours from you. I'm sure they have excellent trainers and they bring in clinicians on a regular basis.

You don't need olympic level trainers to get your foot in the door; surely Missoula has some decent dressage trainers who can get you started in the right direction. Kalispell is much smaller than Missoula and we have a lot of dressage activity going on here. The sticks? Not hardly, not unless you think you can only learn from the best of the best.

I admit I am somewhat snobbish about it. When I see what the "dressage trainers" around here turn out, and coming from Wellington, FL, it makes me laugh. I also do not live in Missoula. I am in a very rural area 1 hour WEST of Missoula. And without alot of money to spend on training. Because there are no JOBS here, I have to depend on my husband, and after hay and vet bills there isn't much left. I'm already getting pressure from him about the horses, and I don't spend any money on lessons. I'm having a pity party for myself in case you can't tell :)

[BaroquePony]

The USPC Guide to Longeing and Ground Training is only about ten or twelve bucks.

You can go back and read it anytime you get stuck on something.

It follows a well-respected method that works for any type of horse. It is thorough and detailed and has illustrations that help a lot.

It can help you with becoming consistent.

[Roan]

Eq Trainer, I wasn't trying to start a war here. There are many different opinions in the horsey world. You guys don't have to go attacking each other over it.

That's why I'm just going to ignore them. There are many roads to Rome and if someone wants to take a short cut, that's their prerogative. I'd rather go the long way and make sure I get all the scenery :D

You might want to subscribe to the Discovering Classical Dressage mailing list, run by Simon Betram, since that sounds like the way you want to go:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/DiscoveringClassicalDressage/?yguid=64683124

Not a lot of activity there, but you can ask questions.

And the Classical Dressage list, run by the Ritters:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ClassicalDressage/

A lot more advanced, but worth reading. If you post in there, wear a flame-retardant suit :D

HTH
Eileen

[Tamara in TN]

Preach on, Sister Beavis!

People, baroques are bred for FIGHT, not FLIGHT. They require a lot of tact, respect and understanding. You don't respect them and they will not respect you. Especially the mares.


Eileen

question...I had another Baroque owner tell me the exact same thing about his stallion,in reference to why the stallion had struck a vet in the head when he had applied hoof testers to locate an abcess on a front foot...

is this a correct application of the "fight not flight" aspect of the breed as you understand it?

[EqTrainer]

Tee hee, I have been a Classical Dressage List member for... oh my goodness, more years than I can count now. I suggest that ANYONE here who wants to know if putting a bag on the end of a longe whip is standard practice for people who train baroque horses, that they email Dr. Ritter personally and ask him. In fact, I think I will do that tonight.. might be even more fun to post it to the general list! BTW, he owns the list, Simon moderates it.

No book reference for me? I am thinking that Mr. P. was dead before plastic grocery bags came into existance... I suppose he put a brown paper one on there instead... Oh my, I think I'm going to lose it now...

For the OP: Sometimes people just need to make the most simple things very difficult. Teaching the horse what the whip means is simple - it is easy - it takes a few minutes - and a lifetime of backing it up. I second Baroque Pony's suggestion of the pony club manual - training needs to be progressive and it will give you a good place to start. And FWIW, the roads to Rome are few if you are talking about classical dressage. That is the absolute beauty of it.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Seriously now. Walk up to your horse and tap him on the rear end with the whip. When you do it, say WALK ON, in your big girl voice. Thats why we have whips, to help explain what we want the horse to do. It's not abuse to use it. If he doesn't go, tap him harder. If he's that smart based on his breeding alone he'll get it the first time, no? :lol: If he doesn't go that time, do it harder. Rinse and repeat as necessary until you get the desired response. AS SOON AS HE WALKS FORWARD tell him what a genius he is! and stop with the whip.

It's about being clear and having good timing, not what breed you are training. I bet Thomas Ritter would tell you the exact same thing.

Yup! :yes: That pretty much says it all.

But this is one of those things that if you have to ask, no way do you have experience enough in timing and reading horse body language to not cause more problems. Find a young horse starter (NOT a round penner, but one that does Eventing, Hunters or Dressage) that can work with the horse, and you can watch and learn from them.

[Roan]

Tee hee, I have been a Classical Dressage List member for... oh my goodness, more years than I can count now. I suggest that ANYONE here who wants to know if putting a bag on the end of a longe whip is standard practice for people who train baroque horses, that they email Dr. Ritter personally and ask him. In fact, I think I will do that tonight.. might be even more fun to post it to the general list! BTW, he owns the list, Simon moderates it.

No book reference for me? I am thinking that Mr. P. was dead before plastic grocery bags came into existance... I suppose he put a brown paper one on there instead... Oh my, I think I'm going to lose it now...

You do that, why don't you? And while you are at it make sure you mention no one advised her to do it. She did it on her own -- or were you too busy trying to think of clever things to say and let that little fact escape you?

'Nuff said to you, that's for sure.

Roan

[Chloesmom]

If you desensitize your horse to the plastic bag by sacking him out with it, then it won't scare him when you tie it to the end of the lounge whip.
Yes it will. It is the same concept as using the whip. If your horse is scared of the whip you aren't using it right.

I suggest that ANYONE here who wants to know if putting a bag on the end of a longe whip is standard practice for people who train baroque horses, that they email Dr. Ritter personally and ask him.
Well guess what? Ritter isn't here, neither is Nuno or Podhajsky. If one doesn't have the guidance or the know-how, then one must find another way or do nothing. Do you think a plastic bag ruined the horse? No? Then why let snobbery sit us on a fence until we find "the standard" and can master it? The horse is moving. Is it a good idea to continue to seek the education? Yes, but in the meantime she got the horse to move. Considering her level and resources, I'll bet Ritter and the others could live with it. So nice that you could be so amused by someone else's inexperience though... really classy.

Springer, I can tell that you are having a pity party, yes. Enjoy it while it lasts, then shake it off and figure out what you CAN do. If you want to go to the ball, then traveling down the dusty backroads is better than sitting around waiting for a limo that just ain't coming. So save the snobbery for another day. This day, you are better off traveling the dusty roads. If things change for you later on, you will be at least part way to your goals instead of a know-nothing sitting on the fence.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[

question...I had another Baroque owner tell me the exact same thing about his stallion,in reference to why the stallion had struck a vet in the head when he had applied hoof testers to locate an abcess on a front foot...

is this a correct application of the "fight not flight" aspect of the breed as you understand it?[/quote]


Isn't that horses? Especially stallions. I'm sorry, I've had TBs who were tough tough SOBs. There has been more than one TB race stallion that has KILLED a groom. Yes, I can maybe buy that some breeds might be more aggressive than others....but claiming that all individuals in a breed have to be trained a particular way is just nuts. You don't pick a "fight" with any horse...they are a hell of a lot bigger than you....but you must establish ground rules and teach respect all the time from day one. Consistency and timing....if that hasn't been established on the ground with the absolute basics...you can't establish it under saddle.

I've YET had a TB or WB or any other breed that was home bred have any respect what so ever for the whip when first presented with it...and had several who would happily chew on it given the opportunity. They learned what it meant by me showing them in much the same manner as already mentioned by EqTrainer....and I can honestly say, NONE have any fear of the whip, but they do know that it means go forward (and that it can bite). Some only ever needed the lightest tap...a few others needed more than a few smacks just make sure that you are Not sending conflicting singles...that is when you will get them frustrated.

Good luck OP...it is very hard to do this on your own. Just remember to keep the sessions very short (less than 15 minutes). Make sure you are NOT ahead of his shoulder but closer to his hip (but out of kicking range!). Keep what you are asking for simple. It isn't brain surgery....but the timing is something that is very hard to teach. And just be very careful.

[EqTrainer]

I absolutely owe everyone here an apology. I have no idea WHY after all these years, breedism and sins committed in the name of classical dressage, complete with ODG name dropping, first amuse me and then irritate me.

I should be over it by now. I KNOW THAT. And so I will begin again, to watch the river flow on by, and vow to never dip my foot in it again! :lol:

[Fairview Horse Center]

I've YET had a TB or WB or any other breed that was home bred have any respect what so ever for the whip when first presented with it...and had several who would happily chew on it given the opportunity. They learned what it meant by me showing them in much the same manner as already mentioned by EqTrainer....and I can honestly say, NONE have any fear of the whip, but they do know that it means go forward (and that it can bite). Some only ever needed the lightest tap...a few others needed more than a few smacks just make sure that you are Not sending conflicting singles...that is when you will get them frustrated.

They have to learn a whip can "bite" just like the babies learn that other horses can bite and make them MOVE. I want the same respect they give to the herd leader. A herd leader does teach with pain, and they learn to love and respect them.

Basically there are only a few ways to "train".

One is like they do to each other - they nip and kick. (pain with a slight dose of fear of that pain) This is the easiest for them to understand.

Next you have physical overpowering, like holding a foal's leg. Not ideal, but at times necessary to allow a horse to live in the human world, and stay healthy and sound, This type has to be done more carefully as you don't want to scare or injure them.

Then you have bribery. This is totally alien to horses and can get really dangerous if you are running in front of them with a carrot. :winkgrin: You become their playmate, not their "trainer". Just like with my kid, I want to be his parent, not his buddy. (this becomes critical when they approach those teen years) :eek: :yes:

Then you have the predator-prey relationship. This is based on fear, and exhaustion (mentally and or physically). This is what a plastic bag or other means of round penning does, and I don't want that kind of relationship when I am training a horse. Lungeing does not have the same issue because you are sending them forward, but stopping the "fleeing". Easier for them to learn that the nip was about a specific behavior, not just for the heck of it, running them till they are tired.

[MelantheLLC]

If you desensitize your horse to the plastic bag by sacking him out with it, then it won't scare him when you tie it to the end of the lounge whip.

Just a thought.

That's pretty strange, cause my horse has tons of fun running around being shagged by a bag on the end of a whip when he's free, but he's fine with the bag when it's up close (as when I catch him after gathering the longe whip and bag in my hand.)

I guess he's just a genius who can figure out context. Our barn must be full of 'em! ;)

Sorta like this forum.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I also wanted to say that causing a bit of a "sting" with a whip does not make them afraid. We just started one of my 3 year olds. She learned in about 2 sessions exactly how long that whip was. She was totally jogging around on the lunge knowing that if the trainer couldn't reach her, nothing could make her keep the canter. I was laughing so much to see the trainer running in circles to keep her within "biting range". The trainer solved the problem by just riding her after about 3 lunge sessions. She is super easy on under saddle, but that whip and leg stays within range. :lol:

[Roan]

No one said anything about a sting making them afraid. It pisses them off royally, that's what it does, especially if they think they do not deserve it.

I've started quite a few youngsters and older horses on the longe and I used the same methods you guys are talking about. Use the whip as a whip, yadda yadda, and so forth.

My mare, however, is not the same as all the TBs, QHs et al that I worked with in the past. People told me about this, but I'm one of those "seeing is believing" types and I'm learning the hard way that they are correct. First time I tried to sting her with the whip I had a ROYALLY pissed off mare on my hands.

As for fight not flight -- I'm not talking a typical horse reaction to hoof testers. Any horse will kick out from something like that. In a horse with a "fight" mindset, they don't flee from danger like "regular" horses do. They turn and face it and get ready to charge if need be.

And no, it's not limited to baroques, but it's found a lot in the baroque breeds. There's an Irish Sport at the barn I board at who has a mind very like my girl.

Eileen

[lstevenson]

No one said anything about a sting making them afraid. It pisses them off royally, that's what it does, especially if they think they do not deserve it.

I've started quite a few youngsters and older horses on the longe and I used the same methods you guys are talking about. Use the whip as a whip, yadda yadda, and so forth.

My mare, however, is not the same as all the TBs, QHs et al that I worked with in the past. People told me about this, but I'm one of those "seeing is believing" types and I'm learning the hard way that they are correct. First time I tried to sting her with the whip I had a ROYALLY pissed off mare on my hands.

As for fight not flight -- I'm not talking a typical horse reaction to hoof testers. Any horse will kick out from something like that. In a horse with a "fight" mindset, they don't flee from danger like "regular" horses do. They turn and face it and get ready to charge if need be.

And no, it's not limited to baroques, but it's found a lot in the baroque breeds. There's an Irish Sport at the barn I board at who has a mind very like my girl.

Eileen


Roan, most horses are pissed off if they are hit and don't think they deserve it. It's up to the handler to show the horse why they are being hit, and what they can do to avoid it. Once they understand, they will simply respect it, and obey.

And every horse respects and obeys his/her herd leader rather than fighting (once pecking order has been established).

[Fairview Horse Center]

If a horse does not have respect for the handler, that is when you will get an inappropriate response. If a herd leader nips an underling, they don't get royally pissed off unless they have not yet accepted that horse as dominant over them.

edited to say: posting at the same time as lstenvenson - totally agree!

[Tamara in TN]

As for fight not flight -- I'm not talking a typical horse reaction to hoof testers. Any horse will kick out from something like that. In a horse with a "fight" mindset, they don't flee from danger like "regular" horses do. They turn and face it and get ready to charge if need be.

And no, it's not limited to baroques, but it's found a lot in the baroque breeds. There's an Irish Sport at the barn I board at who has a mind very like my girl.

Eileen

this was a stallion who pawed his vet of many years on the head...nothing typically "flinching" about that:no: and his owner used those very words to "explain" it to me...so I wondered if it were not just some breed thing used in their advertising that they were just repeating...I was appalled in any event...

mules and donkeys stand and defend themselves as they know they cannot out run anyone...but this seems different than what you are talking about...

[Roan]

this was a stallion who pawed his vet of many years on the head...nothing typically "flinching" about that:no: and his owner used those very words to "explain" it to me...so I wondered if it were not just some breed thing used in their advertising that they were just repeating...I was appalled in any event...

mules and donkeys stand and defend themselves as they know they cannot out run anyone...but this seems different than what you are talking about...

I don't know how to really explain it, Tamara, except to say that that stallion was an extreme example. I'd not have a horse like that as a stallion, myself. Too dangerous. Castration time :)

Eileen

[JB]

No one said anything about a sting making them afraid. It pisses them off royally, that's what it does, especially if they think they do not deserve it.

That's why you can't just haul off and peg them, especially when you are training this response (same goes for training any response to any cue). It IS unfair, and they DO have the right to get pissed off, if you are training the canter aid, they don't understand the first cue, and then you SMACK them.

You must use a progression of 2-3 progressively more motivating cues to try to elicit some semblance of the correct response (however crude), and then you must use a cue that elicits a response of some positive nature. Sure, that may still piss him off, but he'll quickly realize, though repetition, that he brought it upon himself, and if your final motivating cue was motivating enough, he won't want to get there again, and he WILL start to offer a response sooner.

Horses interacting with each other don't suddenly haul off and kick or bite a pasturemate. Ok, the occasional bully does, but his herdmates ARE afraid of him and tend to avoid him - not the relationship you want to build with your horse. But bullies aside, normal behavior is, for example, to give the "look of death", then pin the ears, then swish the tail/snake the head, THEN go for the teeth. If the recipient of those actions decides that was all he wanted, then the next time that horse pins the ears, or looks nasty, he'll move. But at the same time, he won't be afraid of that horse, he'll buddy up with him to do tail-swishing fly duty, eat off the same hay pile, drink out of the water tub at the same time, etc.

[MyReality]

I joined this late. But I want to say this:

Do NOT use anything that is intended for something else to lunge a horse. Therefore do not throw brushes at horses, or tie a bag on a stick, or use a broom. You want a horse to identify certain equipment with certain activity... please do not confuse a poor horse, and especially a young horse.

A plastic bag, its look and sound is very unique and easy to identify... when my horses hear plastic bags, they think of treats and eagerly look in the direction. Couldn't imagine they start to run... especially we carry so many things in plastic bags, and people leave them behind on property and on trails.

Lastly, not to repeat what others have said. For every horse who has respect for the lunge whip, he/she has been tapped by one, and associate the whip with go, instead of an empty threat they could challenge. Enough said.

[Spectrum]

springer,



Ignore the nay-sayers here that have obviously not dealt with this type of mind and go with your gut instinct. He's not "spoiled", he just does not understand what you are asking and if you push the issue, he WILL fight back.
Eileen

Really? Because I'm pretty sure she said he barged out of the roundpen after the session. To me that sounds *exactly* like a spoiled horse with poor ground manners.

Spectrum.

[mickeydoodle]

Oh for goodness sake smack the brat with the whip if you need to explain its purpose. And use the chain so he does not trample you. This horse needs your respect, not treats and carrot sticks.

[Spectrum]

The one thing I would like to add is that a horse that will barge over you to exit a round pen is a horse who thinks he is higher on the pecking order than you.

And you *do* need to be careful about disciplining such a horse, as those are the ones that will get ticked and take a shot at you if you try to push them. The catch is, these are the horses that need to be taught their place the most, yet you have to do it with good timing and the resolve to follow through. If you do so, the discussion will be short and productive. If you aren't decisive, you're in for a world of mess.

This is not to say that you shouldn't use your whip- I heartily agree that decisive, intelligent and tactful use of the whip is key in teaching a youngster to longe. But you will need to be very conscious of safety concerns while you're doing it with a horse of this type.

At some point you will need to give him a snap on the butt with it, and when you do you better make sure you aren't in range for either a kick or getting run over.

Been there, done that. Now I have better timing and reflexes and I know what signs to watch for. I'm also acknowledged by multiple grand prix trainers as a very good person at teaching young horses to longe, regardless of prior issues people have had teaching them to do so.

Erica.

[FlashGordon]

Agree with EqTrainer, Baroque Pony and whoever else said to use a longe whip like a longe whip. Heck, my horse is really smart and didn't respect the longe whip at first either. He got whacked and now he does.

This thread has been hugely amusing.

Ditto what grayarabpony said.

***Ok just edited to add, after reading a few more posts, nowhere did the OP say her horse was of a "difficult" mentality. It sounds like a typical 3 year old. Show it what needs to be done and get on with things. No reason to wear kid gloves in handling it unless you WANT to make it difficult.

Horses become complex and difficult because PEOPLE make them that way. Sure some start out with character traits that may be a bit more "interesting" to deal with. But it is the people handling and riding them that exacerbate those qualities.

So crack the 3 year old on the ass and send it forward. Bet it will only take once or twice. Be fair, but emotionless in your dealings with him. And if you can't be, get him to a trainer who can. If you can't get him forward on the longe you're going to have a heck of a time under saddle.

Off the soapbox.

[JMurray]

Ok this is just maybe personal style and technique. You can train any animal to do anything you want through any cue and reinforcement you decide on depending on how much time you want to spend on it.

Me, I have started young horses lunging many times over the years. Each one is different. Some can take the whacks...meaning they need hard pressure, some just need a hard look in the eye...meaning they take light pressure.

But I would never advocate whacking or stinging as the first response. Instead work up through the pressure levels until you find what gets a response and then reward them. The level of pressure each time should decrease as they understand what pleases you.

It is the same idea behind how much pressure to use under saddle with a seat or leg aid. You start with the lowest level of pressure and work up until they hear you then reward them. The idea being to train them to respond to the lightest pressure

Each horse will require a different level of pressure in the learning process..so we need to tune in to them.

And yes certain breeds have certain tendencies to be taken into account.

Just IMHO and my personal experience and approach.

[goeslikestink]

Sounds to me like you need to get rid of your "somewhat spoiled" problems (which means redefining your relationship and your horse's responsiveness to you on the ground in your daily interaction) before he will be able to understand and willingly respond to what you are asking of him now that you've started serious "work".

"Babies" that are laid back and easy (oversensitized), can sometimes be the most trying when you start them initially because you've change the venue and they are clueless through no fault of their own.

Unless you have established really good responsiveness to you on the ground in your day-to-day relationship/handling --moving away, left, right, forward and back to a light touch -- with no barginess and complete willingness to do what you've asked the FIRST time, you've got your work cut out for you (grin). But it's doable once you change your own thinking.

If your horse is bargy and insenstive on the ground in your daily interaction, you need to change that FIRST. The rest will follow.

i agree with you

[mademoiselle]

Oh boy, I didn't realize I could have get attacked or killed by all the PRE and lusitano stallions I've trained :eek::eek:Stupid me:lol: I used the same training method as the ones I use with the TBs and Wbs ...
Come on, I have worked for a big PRE/Lusitano breeder, handling everything from weanling to 18 year stallion (including 2 stallions labeled 'dnagerous') and I treated the same way EqTrainer explained. And yes, at first they were not happy campers, they tried to challenge me, but I stayed firm, FAIR and consistant and they got it. I had a great relationship with them and to this day, I'm the only one who has been able to handle one of the stallions without a trip to the ER.

Here is the method:
Go forward, nudge, nudge ... No response : Go foward, tap, tap ... No response ... Go foward horsey please .: Wack, Kaboom ... Good horsey.

Try again, go forward, cluck, cluck ... horsey goes foward ... good boy (or good girl), end of the discussion. Next ...

I have dealt with many different breeds, problem horses left and right, stallions (over 50 of them), I currently ride 5 stallions ... and it's basic :

It's all about body language, timing and being consistent. You need to establish that you are in charge. You need to be firm and FAIR.

I'm not saying that you should beat horses, but a good whack once in a while at the right time is all you need to get your point across.

Watch horses in a pasture between the alphas and others. They start by pinning their ears, if the beta horse doesn't move right away, he gets kicked or bitten right away. There is usually only one warning!!!!

Each horse is a different individual, but the principle of training are pretty much the same. The all Baroque thing is a non sense. I agree that many of them are smarter than your average WB, and I can see that some of them are even smarter than the averagge dressage rider and have trained their people to not use the whip because they are so special and they don't like it. yep, smart horses:winkgrin:

[Boomer]

Easier said than done. Other than cowboys and Parelli-ites, there ARE no trainers in NW Montana. I have the tape series from Jennie Loriston-Clarke which is very helpful, but the horses in her Vol. I tape seem to lunge naturally!

I understand your frustration - there are no dressage trainers near me either. I haul to everything. How about the Missoula Event & Dressage Assoc or the Montana Dressage Assoc? Do they know anyone?

You will probably have to haul to someone. Even if they are 4 hours one-way (like it was when I moved to MS) - it was worth it.

The guy that started my youngster's ground work/backing (taught my gelding, then showed me what to do so we could practice) was not a dressage rider. But he did a good job.

[Coppers mom]

Ok, this has been interesting....

1) While granted some horses can be a little more indignant in nature, it shouldn't be used as an excuse for him. If he drags you out of the gate, check him and back him back into wherever he was. If he lags behind you while leading, or drags you on, don't let him. If he turns towards you and gives you a pissy look when you ask him to go, make him move on. I'm not saying it's a dictatorship, but at this point, it should be close. Respect (not fear) should be your number one priority with a horse like him.

2) No matter how super duper smart you think he is, he's not going to respect the whip when you point it at him. He has no idea what it is, so he's just going to look at you like you're an idiot when you flail it around. He's a baby, and he needs to be taught these things. Stand him along the rail of the round pen, and tell him "Walk on" followed by a little tap. If he says "You spoothead what in the world did you do that for?", you tell him to "Walk ON" and tap him harder. Don't be afraid to whack him good once or twice to get the point across. When he goes, make him feel like the genius you think that he is, and repeat until he goes from "Walk on".

3) You don't want him to fear whatever you use, you want respect. Fear will result in him running around like a ninny without getting anything done, the same as when a horse fears the leg. You want the horse to understand not only that he's supposed to go forward on his own, but also why the whip is used (which would be established through the practice of #2) so that he can say "Well I suppose she's not going to let me putter around" rather than "Oh My God I'm going to DIE!!".

I think that right now you have to learn that he's just a baby, and he doesn't know anything. Sure, the rest of the horses you've worked with may have gone if you pointed the whip at them, but I guarantee that it's because someone layed it across their ass a few times in the early days. Maybe you should think about sending him away for 30 or so days so that he knows at least a little bit when he gets back to you, and his early training won't be such a struggle.

[smithywess]

Your quote:..What on earth do you do to get a horse like this moving forward???

Hello Springer,
Sounds as if you have a very nice horse.Your problem likely has nothing to do with your whip and everything to do with your body language.If you want him to go forwards get behind him a little so that he's 'in front of your whip' just the same as you should keep him in front of your leg when you get to ride him. Nearly all difficulties with horses are the result of rider or handler error and often with simply being in the wrong position.If he does respond favourably you must reward him immediately with your voice or hand after stopping him,or both.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

Easier said than done. Other than cowboys and Parelli-ites, there ARE no trainers in NW Montana. I have the tape series from Jennie Loriston-Clarke which is very helpful, but the horses in her Vol. I tape seem to lunge naturally!


Well, a *good* Cowboy or Parrelli-ite is better than someone who doesn't know what they're doing. You can really screw up a young horse very easily, why take a chance.

[Guilherme]

I admit I am somewhat snobbish about it. When I see what the "dressage trainers" around here turn out, and coming from Wellington, FL, it makes me laugh. I also do not live in Missoula. I am in a very rural area 1 hour WEST of Missoula. And without alot of money to spend on training. Because there are no JOBS here, I have to depend on my husband, and after hay and vet bills there isn't much left. I'm already getting pressure from him about the horses, and I don't spend any money on lessons. I'm having a pity party for myself in case you can't tell :)

With respect, you need to spend the money on YOU. Then, when you have have learned what you need to know you can go back to working with your horse.

You're making the mistake that 90% of horseowners make (train the horse, not the human). I say "train the human, then let the human train horse."

G.

[sid]

Didn't read all the posts either.

Horses really can teach one how to train them, if only we listen and watch carefully to them as individuals.

Like any relationship -- horse or human -- the best ones result by using tact, skill, patience and most imporant, fairness. Some horses, most noteably stallions, have a unique and strong sense sense of fairness. They can respond more violently than others who lose patience and wail on them emotionally...whether with the leg, the chain or the whip.

All horses are great teachers -- they teach us to each "ourselves", just we try to teach them to teach themselves without being the adversarial as we do so. Or at least I hope so!

Sure, you can beat the crap out of a horse and get submission (for some). For others, well, they will fight..then be deemed a "bad" horse.

Training the more "spirited" horse is not easy and they often require more than average "patience" and creative thinking. Not cookie cutter work. But the patience in doing so is supremely rewarding.

"Problem" horses are the best teachers. If all horses were "easy", I would have learned little about them.

[enjoytheride]

Who said anything about beating the horse? A whack with the end of the lunge whip isn't a beating.

[twofatponies]

The danger with deciding that a horse "doesn't want this" or "doesn't like that" is that the horse outweighs you by about 10 times. One day when he "feels like" barging out the gate, he's going to break your foot. One day when he "doesn't want to" move over, he's going to get you both hit by an oncoming car.

I think during all stages of training - lungeing, groundwork, whatever - you have to insist that the horse do what *you* ask without discussion, because there are too many situations where there is no time for discussion without compromising safety. If you don't make that a consistent practice in every situation, the horse can't understand that it is a "rule". He'll always be guessing, and he'll decide he better just do what he wants mostly, because he can't figure out what you want.

Having no clear rules or boundaries is as bad for horses as it is for children.

[BaroquePony]

Very well said twofatponies.

[Char]

One thing to remember with baroques: Pick your battles!



Oh for crying our loud...sounds like you're going to teach your too-smart-for-words-baroque-horse how to MAKE you pick your battles! If your horse has absolutelly NO respect for the cues that you are giving him with the lunge.....give hime a REASON to! Don't chase him around a round pen scaring the be-jesus out of him and expect him to learn something from it! Put on your big-girl pants and have an actual "training session" with your horse, which includes a discussion on who is in charge.

For pete's sake...it sounds like he doesn't have any use for all of this "mamby-pamby" stuff either.

[Kyzteke]

To Touchstone and Roan- that would explain why Rio got p%&ssed off when I tried to crack the whip at him. Not responsive, just mad! I think I insulted his intelligence :)
The other posters also don't seem to understand that I do not have ACSESS to any dressage or even 3 day trainers close by. I live in the sticks of Montana and cannot afford to be carting this boy off to Spokane WA for training. (3 hours) So I have to do the best I can by getting myself educated. Believe me, I am hyper-aware of the fact that I can easily screw this horse up. I have owned and cared for horses for around 14 years but have not started any babies. That is why I am being so careful to do the right thing by him, with the resources I 've got. Thanks for your input, and any other suggestions are very welcome!!!!!!


http://www.montanadressage.org/

Plus there is quite an active eventing community in MT as well. If Spokane is 3 hrs. away, you must be near Missoula -- and if I were you I would invest in 30-60 days training with one of the pros in Coeur d'Alene, Sandpoint or Spokane if you can't find anyone in MT to suit.

By your own admission your horse is already spoiled and is obviously showing no attention OR respect for you. Trust me, it will only get worse, because he already knows whose in charge....and it isn't you. How do you think he will miraculously become a well-mannered, obedient riding horse when he won't even do something simple like lunge?

Treats to teach a horse to lunge? Geeze...snap that whip at his heels once or twice and he will go forward, I don't care what breed he is.

[Kyzteke]

If you desensitize your horse to the plastic bag by sacking him out with it, then it won't scare him when you tie it to the end of the lounge whip.

Just a thought.

Actually, not exactly true.

You are not really trying to "scare" the horse with the bag OR the whip. As Susan said, it is simply an extension of your hand/arm and used as such. You can caress with a hand, give treats with a hand or slap with a hand, right? Same with a whip/bag/pole/stick,whatever. Your horse isn't (or at least shouldn't be) AFRAID of your hand, is he?

Same difference.

The OP HAD to use a bag to get the horse to move forward because she never actually used the whip properly. If she had (as in crack it near his heels or actually pop him with it) at the same time she gave a verbal "forward" command (cluck, kiss, whatever), it would have just been as effective as a bag.

I use a bag on the end of a whip to get my horses moving for videos and such, but none of them are really AFRAID of it. I can get my stallion to move off by using it "aggressively" and then he will stand quietly munching his hay while I rub that same bag/whip over his body and even on his head.

It's not about fear, it's about respect.

IMHO a horse should never be fearful of the "tools" of training, but definitely respectful. Sometimes that "respect" starts with a bit of healthy "fear" <g>, but they should get over that pretty quickly.

[twofatponies]

I think that the distinction between fear and respect is that fear comes from *never* knowing when you will hit a boundary, and respect comes from *always* knowing when you will hit a boundary.

If I walk past my horse twenty times, and randomly smack her 10 of those times and give her a carrot the other 10 times, she will have no idea when I am going to smack her, and will start to be unsettled and nervous each time I approach, trying to guess which thing she'll get this time. There's no rule, and she can't learn anything from that.

However, if I walk by her twenty times and smack her the times she reaches out to bite me and give her a carrot the times she doesn't, she will understand that biting=smack and standing quietly=carrot. The rule becomes very clear, and she can respect the rule.

An exaggerated example, but just to show I think it is very simple. The hardest part is for the human to learn to be consistent, not the horse!

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by Kyzteke:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaroquePony
If you desensitize your horse to the plastic bag by sacking him out with it, then it won't scare him when you tie it to the end of the lounge whip.

Just a thought.

Actually, not exactly true.

You are not really trying to "scare" the horse with the bag OR the whip. As Susan said, it is simply an extension of your hand/arm and used as such. You can caress with a hand, give treats with a hand or slap with a hand, right? Same with a whip/bag/pole/stick,whatever. Your horse isn't (or at least shouldn't be) AFRAID of your hand, is he?

Same difference.

My quote was in reference to someone else discussing tying a plastic bag to the end of a longe whip to scare their horse into going forward after they had desensitized it by sacking out with a plastic bag. That person was avoiding using the longe whip in what I would consider a more normal manner.

I would never tie a plastic bag to the end of my longe whip and use it to scare my horse. It won't work for long and no correct ground has been gained.

My comment was that basically the horse would get desensitized to it anyway, and then the person doing it would be back to square one ... a horse that has no respect or understanding of what was actually being asked of it. .

[Kaeleer]

I'm a little concerned by a couple of things the OP said. Having no respect for the whip is not uncommon in a youngster, especially a very confident one, but barging over you as you exit the lunge ring is a telling sign, to me, that this particular horse simply goes where it wants, when it wants. A stallion chain might be a useful way of preventing it from doing that, but it's not solving the problem, which is that this horse just doesn't care WHERE you want it to be / go.

I can't comment on Baroque personalities, the only Baroques I've worked with have been a couple of revolting Friesians, but I've owned a couple of bolshy horses, who needed firm handling, and I don't think I would have been able to lunge any of them successfully without first establishing, in them, enough respect for me, and courtesy towards me, that they were inclined to listen, whip or no whip.

I am worried that a lunging session on a horse like this might well turn into a fight, and a stomping match, and I'm afraid I wouldn't be feeling confident if all I had to fend him off with was a plastic bag!

I know you say that you're far from a trainer, but is there any way you could bring somebody down for a weekend to work with your horse. Yes, it's expensive, but the rewards are huge.

One more thing : I don't tie a bag on the end of a lunge whip and wave it at my horse, either, but I HAVE wrapped white duct tape, or a white plastic bag, around the end of the lunge whip, not so that it's flapping around, but so that it makes the end of the whip more visible, for one horse. He had the attention span of a gnat, and would startle too easily if I touched him with the whip unexpectedly, and I found that having the white "end" of the whip (on the stick, not the whippy part) meant that he could see when I was aiming it in his direction. It made the whip more effective. Something I learned from somebody who HAD done some lunging lessons (as in, how to, not on a horse) from an SRS trainer.

[tuppysmom]

There are eventers in Kalispell. There are some dressage folks around Helena, Boseman, etc. You should be able to find someone who can help you.

[Fairview Horse Center]

There are eventers in Kalispell.

Off topic, but good to hear! I have a baby moving there (technically to Whitefish) next summer, and they will need some help.

[goeslikestink]

Well, today went quite well in the round pen thanks simply to a plastic bag tied to the end of the lunge whip. (thanks touchstone) A whole different horse! He practically lunged himself. In fact he DID lunge himself, as I started him without the lunge line. He understands WHOA and WALK ON, still working on TROT. When he got annoyed and tried to change direction I blocked him. So all in all I think he will be ok. He did barge out of the pen when I opened the gate however. I think he will be wearing a stud chain when we go out tomorrow! (you nailed his personality sid) I'm grateful to all of you for your advice! Just wish some of you were here in Montana!

well if thats your method of training you have just instilled in your horses mind to be scared
of you and there is no trust come the time when you break and ride him your going to have big problems
perhaps one should read this link
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classicaldressage.co.uk%2Fhtm l%2Flungeing.html&ei=SZdpSc_iPIai-ga1kfWuBw&usg=AFQjCNHZFeib1VVKfSSykEIXeh2Y49kzLA&sig2=xGTiX4OZIhVonOzoLu20Rw
if you have problems going off then make your tri angle smaller and stay to the quarters
then encourage the horse roound with the whip hand trailing the lunge whip on the behind the hocks on the floor and make sure your lunge hand has folded excess lunge line so as the horse learn to encourage to go round once he understnads what being asked of him you can then let him out a bit more until you have at the correct distance from you
do not understand so not have the lunge line all on the floor as it would be very dangerous for you
please read this link and look to the post whereby ther are few more links of how to lunge and how to set up your pony to lunge
and please understand that none can be achieved unless you have trust with said horse and tha you have spent time on ground manners
what your doing is teaching the horse to be untrustworthy towards you and your not getting th perfect circle of work but ovals as even tho the horse was scared and going round with a plastic bag on the end of a lunge whip- your were not in control the horse was still avading you in his flight of fear
and one doesnt need to use a stud chain or plastic bag on a young horse

a young horse knows nothing he learns from us good or bad he learns from the human hand keep up your method of trianing and the horse will learn to use himself against you and that point as your so inexpreinced the horse will win every battle and you will get hurt and it depends how bad you get

hurt, a horse once its knows its own strenght and can use his mind to the fullest is a very dangerous horse and only those with expreince can change its attitude which doesnt happen over night can take years to put right what someone like you has done and believe me i know as i trian and re school the horses that have be ill treated or abused such as your doing to your horse you might not think so but matey your on border line

you want a good horse then clean up your act and respect the horses that you have and ask politely
and thats starts when you catch them up and groom them and you teach them basic commands from the word go ie stand

sid has that one covered how you act with your horse on a daily baisis is how your horse response to you
i have never in all my years of breaking and schooling needed a plastic bag and i have never treated a horse without respect
perhaps you would look here to http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baroquehorses.com%2Faboutbaro quehorses.htm&ei=waBpSZqDLY-Y-gbTpMmvBw&usg=AFQjCNHX-3tjNZnIi0On7SovZ_uJZaNmww&sig2=YTzLPhfcy5dGWh7YHAEtWg

i take it as you say your a snob that one thinks that you have a good horse and that is classy to have one of baroque breeding and you may think that its breed is bred for the job in hand and is easy to learn or teach

unfortunately for you op- a good horse is how you trian it ie make it as the orse only learns from th human hand as i said before
when one has understood my quote - to understand a horse 1st you must get close to the horse unquote
then you might get somewhere the quote has many meanings and for you op you havent even learnt the 1st one or any as in how to understand the horses you have

if you go here there are other links to help you http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116

[slc2]

At some point, most people come to realize their impractical ideas about horses and training have to change for them to properly train their horses to be safe, reliable mounts.

They either fail to train their horses properly, or they change their thinking, learn new things and put them into practice, and their horses are better trained and safer and more reliable.

There are certain people who just don't listen. They have to learn the hard way, by doing it wrong. They usually ruin a few horses along the way. And often, they will refuse to learn from that, and will have some complicated explanation for why it didn't work out.

[EqTrainer]

I think this may be one of the funniest threads ever on the Dressage forum. It covered breedism, pulled in the ODG's, the NH'ers, the Plastic Bag, the "special" horses, the "special" people, the horse beaters... and is just plain funny!

I'm going to print it and save it for those days that I just can't find a laugh anywhere :lol:

[sid]

Eq- I agree wholeheartedly. I posted once and I was way off base where the OP was going with this and others who chimed in.

If one cannot train the horse to understand the whip by being judicious and clear in its use as a training aid...how the heck can one ever expect to teach a half-halt hat requires more nuance and more tact and skill. Holy moly!

Not sure why this was on the dressage forum at all. But the answers to the OPs questions were "interesting". Especially the one that said just "smack the brat with the whip, then put the chain over the nose to keep it from trampling you"...or something like that. Oy vey. Should have been on the breeding forum or off course to discuss training the young horse.

[BaroquePony]

A friend of mine and I have been laughing about this thread for a long time ... I'm so glad some one revived it, although I can't imagine why.

My favorite comment was the "did you touch him with it, ... as in .... WHACK?"

[BaroquePony]

Actually, correct longing is very much a part of correct dressage ... hhmmm, carrot sticks and garbage bags just don't ring a bell.

[badawg]

I'm in Bozeman, which is no more in the sticks than Missoula. We have a fair number of decent dressage and event trainers in the area, but I believe I've PM'ed the OP before. None of these trainers are "baroque" specific trainers, though. *shrug*

[springer]

I think this may be one of the funniest threads ever on the Dressage forum. It covered breedism, pulled in the ODG's, the NH'ers, the Plastic Bag, the "special" horses, the "special" people, the horse beaters... and is just plain funny!

I'm going to print it and save it for those days that I just can't find a laugh anywhere :lol:

EqTrainer, I'm not really sure why all of these opinions to my training problems are such a source of amusement to you, unless of course it is all so VERY beneath you. As I said previously, there are many different opinions in the horse world, mostly from folks who know it ALL about horses & training methods. (Obviously you are one of those) I must be a freak, since I feel (and I'm probably right) that the longer I own horses the more I realize that I really know nothing!
BTW... we have been working on ground manners and Rio is responding wonderfully. He will be going to a young lady in the spring down the Bitterroot Valley who does all the training for a local andalusian breeder. (yes, I still feel strongly that the breed has certain character traits that I prefer someone be familiar with- my opinion and I'm stickin' to it!)

[slc2]

I am not so sure EqTrainer was amused at you so much as all the different replies and so many side tracks.

Arguing for how great it is to put a plastic bag on a longe whip instead of training one's horse properly, which is a lot simpler, and looks a wee bit more dignified, and translates to better work under saddle, and translates better to competition success, yeah, I do think that's funny, to be honest. Another example of the bulletin board mythology of dressage.

If the amusement was not at the replies, EqTrainer is a very, very good dressage trainer with tons of experience. If you disagree with one of her ideas, you might stop and consider if it she may have a really good point, and you may need to open up your mind and consider trying something new. Sorry, but it's true. She rides very well in dressage, she has years of experience teaching, she has an incredible knack for taking less than perfect horses and doing far more with them than anyone would expect, she has proven she knows her stuff through giving years and years of practical, sound, sensible advice here for question after question, and being able to get right to the heart of a training issue and knowing exactly what needs to change. Sometimes being contradicted is nothing more than a great learning experience.

The good trainer always adjusts his aids to match the sensitivity of the horse, and knows that each horse has individual strengths and weaknesses that need to be given however much time they need. A good trainer sees each horse as an individual, and works with that individual. If the individual is easily fried, he structures the training accordingly. If he is overly sensitive to the aids, he desensitizes him. If he's too light on the reins brings him to a better connection.

Beyond that, I think trying to set up a 'special' breed dressage training program in which the trainer will be limited in what he is allowed to do or be appealing because he is resorting to short cuts and gimmicks rather than sensible, practical methods, 'because it's a QH' or 'because it's a baroque horse' that is a very, very big mistake.

And no, Baroque horses were not 'bred to fight' or whatever claims are being made here about how they respond like mountain lions to being trained. That is one of the silliest things I've ever heard.

[mickeydoodle]

In my opinion, the only "special" training the Baroque breeds need is in improving their gaits. They tend to be leg movers, choppy, and really need to be taught to move with all of their body- through the body. This doesn't mean a "special" trainer, just one who understands when the horse is through the body. They can be taught to move this way, it is just not innate. When they do, they can learn dressage nicely. It had nothing to do with temperament.


As far as respecting the whip, if he does not move forward, whack him.

An example of the "oh please horsie do it because you love me" school of training: recently four horses from our barn were scheduled to be shipped to FL for the season. The commercial horse van arrived to pick them up. Some of the owners were their to load the horses. The first one gets a horse, and a bucket of grain, and tries to lure the horse onto the van "please horsie, you love me don't you". (mind you, this is a mature horse who has loaded before, in fact has been across country, and across the ocean) said horsie takes lots of bites of grain and laughs at human. Horsie is perfectly happy to stand at foot of ramp all day. So human puts this horsie away and gets another of the traveling horsies. This horsie takes bite of grain, puts one foot on ramp, decides it is not interested (again mature horse) and breaks away from human. Human catches horse, tries again, no dice, drags human. This goes on for a while. Finally, I cannot stand watching this any longer. I take second horsie, put chain over nose, and with dressage whip in hand take 20 sec to have a forward from tap on butt, stop from pressure on nose session, and horsie walks up ramp and onto trailer. Get first out again horsie, same thing, gets on trailer. No beating, no fuss, just tap tap tap annoyingly until the sensible mature horse returns to their brain and they walk on properly. Same with the third one. Then initial humans try on their own with the fourth (a BAROQUE), get him one foot on the ramp (no whip, no chain for control) and then he says no way. I get out the chain and the dressage whip again (horrors, he will be scarred forever) and after a few tap tap tap discussions to inform him of who was the leader in our little parade, he gets on trailer. All of the horses get lots of pets, praise and treats from my pocket after they are on. No trauma, no damage to horsies, nor to humans who were previously being dragged around the driveway and trampled. The horse wants to know who the leader is in the herd, they will "trust and respect" that leader and follow the leader's instructions.

[narcisco]

Well, today went quite well in the round pen thanks simply to a plastic bag tied to the end of the lunge whip. (thanks touchstone) A whole different horse! He practically lunged himself. In fact he DID lunge himself, as I started him without the lunge line. He understands WHOA and WALK ON, still working on TROT. When he got annoyed and tried to change direction I blocked him. So all in all I think he will be ok. He did barge out of the pen when I opened the gate however. I think he will be wearing a stud chain when we go out tomorrow!

This really bothers me. Hopefully it wasn't as scary as it sounded. It sounds like you scared the horse so badly with the plastic bag that when you opened the gate, he tried to get the heck out of there (flight instinct). Now you are going to put a big chain on his nose to "fix" it.

I think BaroquePony wrote a good post on starting the young horse longeing. It boils down to teaching the horse the voice commands to walk, trot and halt in hand, with an in hand whip. If he knows the voice command, it will translate to the longe with only a point of the whip. At no point should you need to whack the horse or crack the whip or put a plastic bag on the end of your whip. If you are going to train this horse under saddle by yourself, everything comes back to the basics of whether he knows the voice commands.